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rom826
Jan 28th 2009, 12:10 AM
I started this thread as a question since this is a question I am asking and not making a statement. Daniel 8:21 and 22 speak about Grecia and it being broken up into 4 kingdoms.



And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king.

Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.


Most commentaries I have read on this say this is talking about Alexander the great and his kingdom turning into 4 after his death. Rome is no where near where ancient Greece was. Niether is America. To me this seems to rule out the possibility that the anti-Christ could come from Rome or America.

DurbanDude
Jan 28th 2009, 07:08 AM
I started this thread as a question since this is a question I am asking and not making a statement. Daniel 8:21 and 22 speak about Grecia and it being broken up into 4 kingdoms.



Most commentaries I have read on this say this is talking about Alexander the great and his kingdom turning into 4 after his death. Rome is no where near where ancient Greece was. Niether is America. To me this seems to rule out the possibility that the anti-Christ could come from Rome or America.

Rome is the fourth empire of Daniel 7, the empire that conquers each of the four divisions of the Greek empire. The antichrist comes from the 4th empire, and not from the third empire, Greece.

Daniel 8 is not an end-times chapter, but is speaking of Greece, and about Antiochus , leader of one of the 4 regions, especially most of the middle east. He desecrated the Jewish temple , and stopped Jewish sacrifices at the temple. Exactly 2300 sacrifices were stopped, they had a morning and evening sacrifice, and the sacrifices were stopped for 1150 days. Those translations that state 2300 days are incorrect. And 2300 days does not fit in with other end-time verses that refer to a 3.5 year period, being interpreted as 1260 or 1290 days (3.5 years is 1277.5 days to be precise). Antiochus was similar to the future antichrist and is often referred to as a "forerunner" or "typecast" of the antichrist.

vinsight4u8
Jan 28th 2009, 08:17 AM
The man of sin will come from Iraq.\\

The last part of Zechariah 5 shows that Shinar would set up her palace again.

TexasBeliever
Jan 28th 2009, 11:45 AM
I think our focus on identifying the AC should not be on where he comes from but rather by his ACTIONS. Scripture gives a list as long as my arm concerning the things the AC will do. By his "fruits you shall know him."

iconoclast2012
Jan 28th 2009, 01:25 PM
Rome is the fourth empire of Daniel 7, the empire that conquers each of the four divisions of the Greek empire. The antichrist comes from the 4th empire, and not from the third empire, Greece.

Daniel 8 is not an end-times chapter, but is speaking of Greece, and about Antiochus , leader of one of the 4 regions, especially most of the middle east. He desecrated the Jewish temple , and stopped Jewish sacrifices at the temple. Exactly 2300 sacrifices were stopped, they had a morning and evening sacrifice, and the sacrifices were stopped for 1150 days. Those translations that state 2300 days are incorrect. And 2300 days does not fit in with other end-time verses that refer to a 3.5 year period, being interpreted as 1260 or 1290 days (3.5 years is 1277.5 days to be precise). Antiochus was similar to the future antichrist and is often referred to as a "forerunner" or "typecast" of the antichrist.
.....DAN.8 is not an endtimes chapter...? ...HUH...? I beg to differ...V.17:"for at the time of the end shall be the vision"...V.19:"at the time appointed shall the end be"....not only have we witnessed the (1 st.part of the destruction of the ram = iraq & persia) the second part of this vision is about to be fullfilled right shortly....Well then the "HE" goat here may very well represent "END TIMES BABYLON"....comin' from which direction....? THE WEST....what say ye....SELAH

vinsight4u8
Jan 28th 2009, 01:46 PM
The little horn for Daniel 8 comes to Israel from the east.


Israel...Iraq.....goes east
-----takes the south........

iconoclast2012
Jan 28th 2009, 02:29 PM
The little horn for Daniel 8 comes to Israel from the east.


Israel...Iraq.....goes east
-----takes the south........
......HEY VIN...I've read quite a few of ur post's and u seem to have a sound understanding of bible prophecy however I'm not quite sure I follow ur directionals here as u seem to be comin' from all over the map....DAN.8:5 clearly details the "HE"goat comin' from "THE WEST".....DO u agree w/DAN.8:5's...direction...?

jesuslover1968
Jan 28th 2009, 02:43 PM
what it says is that he will be of the people who destroyed the temple, which was the Romans...that means he has to be of Roman descent, or at least part of the original Roman Empire. He can actually be of that descent and come from anywhere in the world. I myself am English, Irish, Scotish, etc...and I actually come from America, I was born here. That doesn't mean that I do not still have the blood of those heritages. It just means I was born in America. So it is not necessarily a Roman, per se....just someone who has Roman blood. :)

vinsight4u8
Jan 28th 2009, 03:00 PM
Hey to you!

8:5 I see as speaking about the ancient empire under Alexander the Great, and in v 6 he would have gone against Median and Persian kings.
When we get to v 8, we find out that it again begins to speak of the Greek Empire time. It lets us in on what happens after its king (for v 5) dies. We find out that four other kings come up in his empire.
one each in the
east, west, north, south
(the four winds of heaven)

The chapter then wants us to dwell on what a little horn will do.
v 9
"And out of one of them came forth a little horn..."

------------
It doesn't tell us which one of them right out, but gives us clues to know which piece of the four winds he will come from.

v 9
"And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

Since we know where the pleasant land is - Isarel -we know that it is not to be placed in the south or the eastern area of the overall picture being set up.

takes
Israel..........

and the liitle horn also takes the south and the east

So Israel is not in the south or the east as we form a map of what is to take place.

Israel.....<......little horn --->--goes to his east
---------------takes the south------------


If the little horn was in the north - then that wouldn't work -because Israel would then be to his south.
Israel is listed in the prophecy as the pleasant {land} and used as a reference to the direction the little horn king will attack.


-------------The end of Daniel 11 gives this same picture to us.

v 44
"But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him..."

--------------tidings out of the north trouble him-----
Israel.....<....little horn.....>east...<tidings trouble him
.............the south (Egypt) is taken.............


Daniel 11:3 again deals with the king of Greece and v 4 shows what happens to his empire after his death.
split into many pieces
"his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those"
but deal with the main four sections
(the four winds of heaven)

vinsight4u8
Jan 28th 2009, 03:12 PM
what it says is that he will be of the people who destroyed the temple, which was the Romans...that means he has to be of Roman descent, or at least part of the original Roman Empire. He can actually be of that descent and come from anywhere in the world. I myself am English, Irish, Scotish, etc...and I actually come from America, I was born here. That doesn't mean that I do not still have the blood of those heritages. It just means I was born in America. So it is not necessarily a Roman, per se....just someone who has Roman blood. :)

Why do you think that the prophecy is written - as in split into two different determined times?

Daniel 9:27
""And he....and that determined..."

But v 26 also spoke in that manner.

"...the city and the sanctuary:...end of the war desolations are determined."

Didn't v 26 sort of bring everything to a close?
a determined close

Then why does v 27 bring into play another section determined?

Also - if the desolations were -- to the end of the war for v 26, then why in v 27 do we get told....

"even until the consummation"

I ask this?
The consummation of what?

Okay, now head back and see what v 23 has as the reason that Daniel was visited by Gabriel?

"At the beginning of thy supplications...I am come to shew thee..."

So something from the starting point of this chapter has caused Daniel to supplicate to understand it - and this is why Gabriel shows up.

Let me know what is the reason you believe that Gabriel came to Daniel.
Do you agree that something bugged him as to what Jeremiah has written?

Daniel has been reading the words by Jeremiah - so wouldn't this whole chapter have to fit with Daniel coming to understand the Jeremiah prophecy?

vinsight4u8
Jan 28th 2009, 03:26 PM
I have to get going - I want to add in one more thought.

--------**
Since Daniel 8 and 11 deal with the Greek Empire area as to what area of the world the little horn will come from....

then what area of the world do you think Zechariah chapter 6 deals with?

mountains of brass

----------Could this also be showing us that Greek Empire area - as to Daniel's prophecy about Greece for Daniel 2 was about an empire made of brass?


Then just step back a bit into Zec. 5 and what land does it refer to?

Shinar
The prophecy leaves the reader with there is a future goal of building a house (palace) in the land of Shinar.

Babylon - Iraq

iconoclast2012
Jan 28th 2009, 03:31 PM
Hey to you!

8:5 I see as speaking about the ancient empire under Alexander the Great, and in v 6 he would have gone against Median and Persian kings.
When we get to v 8, we find out that it again begins to speak of the Greek Empire time. It lets us in on what happens after its king (for v 5) dies. We find out that four other kings come up in his empire.
one each in the
east, west, north, south
(the four winds of heaven)

The chapter then wants us to dwell on what a little horn will do.
v 9
"And out of one of them came forth a little horn..."

------------
It doesn't tell us which one of them right out, but gives us clues to know which piece of the four winds he will come from.

v 9
"And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

Since we know where the pleasant land is - Isarel -we know that it is not to be placed in the south or the eastern area of the overall picture being set up.

takes
Israel..........

and the liitle horn also takes the south and the east

So Israel is not in the south or the east as we form a map of what is to take place.

Israel.....<......little horn --->--goes to his east
---------------takes the south------------


If the little horn was in the north - then that wouldn't work -because Israel would then be to his south.
Israel is listed in the prophecy as the pleasant {land} and used as a reference to the direction the little horn king will attack.


-------------The end of Daniel 11 gives this same picture to us.

v 44
"But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him..."

--------------tidings out of the north trouble him-----
Israel.....<....little horn.....>east...<tidings trouble him
.............the south (Egypt) is taken.............


Daniel 11:3 again deals with the king of Greece and v 4 shows what happens to his empire after his death.
split into many pieces
"his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those"
but deal with the main four sections
(the four winds of heaven)
....Allthough I understand this eschatology perfectly...I respectfully disagree....We have yet to see the "End time" fullfillment of DAN.8:Verses 7 & 8....

rom826
Jan 28th 2009, 03:46 PM
Rome is the fourth empire of Daniel 7, the empire that conquers each of the four divisions of the Greek empire. The antichrist comes from the 4th empire, and not from the third empire, Greece.

Daniel 8 is not an end-times chapter, but is speaking of Greece, and about Antiochus , leader of one of the 4 regions, especially most of the middle east. He desecrated the Jewish temple , and stopped Jewish sacrifices at the temple. Exactly 2300 sacrifices were stopped, they had a morning and evening sacrifice, and the sacrifices were stopped for 1150 days. Those translations that state 2300 days are incorrect. And 2300 days does not fit in with other end-time verses that refer to a 3.5 year period, being interpreted as 1260 or 1290 days (3.5 years is 1277.5 days to be precise). Antiochus was similar to the future antichrist and is often referred to as a "forerunner" or "typecast" of the antichrist.

Just because something similar happened before Christ came with Antiochus does not mean Daniel 8 is speaking about Antiochus. Saying it is speaking of Antiochus does not fit with other scriptures concerning the Abomination of Desolation.

Mat 24:15


When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation as being future to His time on earth. Therefore Daniel 8 can not be speaking about Antiochus.

rom826
Jan 28th 2009, 03:48 PM
....Allthough I understand this eschatology perfectly...I respectfully disagree....We have yet to see the "End time" fullfillment of DAN.8:Verses 7 & 8....

So you do not believe that verse 7 & 8 are speaking about what happened with Alexander the great?

iconoclast2012
Jan 28th 2009, 04:00 PM
So you do not believe that verse 7 & 8 are speaking about what happened with Alexander the great?
....Quite possibly yes...But the ultimate fullfillment soon to be revealed....selah....

vinsight4u8
Jan 28th 2009, 04:55 PM
....Allthough I understand this eschatology perfectly...I respectfully disagree....We have yet to see the "End time" fullfillment of DAN.8:Verses 7 & 8....

v 23
"And in the latter time of their kingdom..."

=as in the time of the split up four parts
will come this prophecy about the little horn

The Greek Empire is not all a prophecy for the end times - just the part of the role of the little horn.


for the 2300 days part - is only for a section of that chapter's time

--------
v 13
"...How long [shall be] the vision concerning...."
Not how long is the whole chapter's prophecy - but how much time comes - once the prophecy gets to the point of the daily [sacrifice]?

rom826
Jan 28th 2009, 08:46 PM
Why do you think that the prophecy is written - as in split into two different determined times?

Daniel 9:27
""And he....and that determined..."

But v 26 also spoke in that manner.

"...the city and the sanctuary:...end of the war desolations are determined."

Didn't v 26 sort of bring everything to a close?
a determined close

Then why does v 27 bring into play another section determined?

Also - if the desolations were -- to the end of the war for v 26, then why in v 27 do we get told....

"even until the consummation"

I ask this?
The consummation of what?

Okay, now head back and see what v 23 has as the reason that Daniel was visited by Gabriel?

"At the beginning of thy supplications...I am come to shew thee..."

So something from the starting point of this chapter has caused Daniel to supplicate to understand it - and this is why Gabriel shows up.

Let me know what is the reason you believe that Gabriel came to Daniel.
Do you agree that something bugged him as to what Jeremiah has written?

Daniel has been reading the words by Jeremiah - so wouldn't this whole chapter have to fit with Daniel coming to understand the Jeremiah prophecy?

What Jeremiah prophecy are you talking about? Are you talking about the whole book of Jeremiah?

vinsight4u8
Jan 29th 2009, 12:04 AM
What Jeremiah prophecy are you talking about? Are you talking about the whole book of Jeremiah?

What I'm seeing as Daniel was bugged by is Jeremiah 25:11-12.

------------
"And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

/ as in serve a "he" for 70 years

then
"And it shall come to pass when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon..."


/as in the "he" will desolate for 70 years - Israel and other natons serve this "he", which is the Babylonian king - and at the end of that 70 years of desolation time will be when the Babylonian "he" gets punished.


--------Daniel 9:2
"...word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem."
v 3
'And I set my face to seek..."

And Jeremiah's prophecy can't come to pass unless the calendar has rung in 70 years and there exists a Babylonian king that has been desolating Jerusalem at that time.

--------------A Babylonian king was slain last time when Cyrus took Babylon away from him, but that was the time of the so-far last Babyloinian king as 70 years had not yet come.

Nebuchadnezzar - 605 B.C.
-------------------all the way to the last Babylonian king so far - 539 B.C.

The calendar has only seen about 66.5 years of the Babylonian 70- yr prophecy.

DurbanDude
Jan 29th 2009, 10:15 AM
.....DAN.8 is not an endtimes chapter...? ...HUH...? I beg to differ...V.17:"for at the time of the end shall be the vision"...V.19:"at the time appointed shall the end be"....not only have we witnessed the (1 st.part of the destruction of the ram = iraq & persia) the second part of this vision is about to be fullfilled right shortly....Well then the "HE" goat here may very well represent "END TIMES BABYLON"....comin' from which direction....? THE WEST....what say ye....SELAH

Hi icononclast,

The bible itself interprets the vision , so we don't need to be rocket scientists to interpret this:


8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia

Daniel was given this vision during Belshazzar's reign, the "writing was on the wall for Belshazzar", the Persians were about to take over. This vision is firstly about the next ruler of Babylon.


8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
This is self explanatory, Greece sonquered Persia, Alexander the Great swept quickly through the middle east.


8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
After he died, the Greek empire was split between his 4 generals.


8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. Just before Rome conquered all 4 regions of the old Greek empire, Antiochus starting reigning over the middle eastern portion of the 4 Greek empires. He came to power deceitfully.


8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. He prospered, increased his kingdom, conquered the southern kingdom (Egypt) and practised evil, and persecuted the Jews. He called himself "God manifest" (Antiochus IV Epiphanes). At this point, if you believe in dual fulfilment of prophey, you could also regard this as applying to a future antichrist that Antiochus resembled.


8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. He called himself God and persecuted the Jewish religion terribly. He died suddenly of disease while campaigning.


8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Nearly 300 years after this vision (many days) , Antiochus stopped the sacrifices for 2300 morning and evening sacrifices over a period of exactly 1150 days. The Jews to this day celebrate the taking back of the temple as a Jewish holiday.

These verses may have a dual fulfilment in the antichrist in the way that this man takes over the temple and deceives Jews and desecrates the temple, and calls himself God. But the specifics of which country this person comes from etc can only apply to Antiochus in its context and not to a future antichrist. This chapter is clearly about a man who rules one of the four divisions of the Greek empire towards the end of the Greek empire , we know this because Daniel is told this.

Antiochus was confronted by Rome and had to back down, because he recognised that Rome was greater, all four regions of the Greek empire soon fell to Rome after Antiochus died.

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 04:39 PM
Why do you think that the prophecy is written - as in split into two different determined times?

Daniel 9:27
""And he....and that determined..."

But v 26 also spoke in that manner.

"...the city and the sanctuary:...end of the war desolations are determined."

Didn't v 26 sort of bring everything to a close?
a determined close

Then why does v 27 bring into play another section determined?

Also - if the desolations were -- to the end of the war for v 26, then why in v 27 do we get told....

"even until the consummation"

I ask this?
The consummation of what?

Okay, now head back and see what v 23 has as the reason that Daniel was visited by Gabriel?

"At the beginning of thy supplications...I am come to shew thee..."

So something from the starting point of this chapter has caused Daniel to supplicate to understand it - and this is why Gabriel shows up.

Let me know what is the reason you believe that Gabriel came to Daniel.
Do you agree that something bugged him as to what Jeremiah has written?

Daniel has been reading the words by Jeremiah - so wouldn't this whole chapter have to fit with Daniel coming to understand the Jeremiah prophecy?


Okay, you lost me, :) Could you explain to me what that has to do with what I said because I am missing it... Thank you in advance. :hug:

vinsight4u8
Jan 29th 2009, 04:48 PM
Okay, you lost me, :) Could you explain to me what that has to do with what I said because I am missing it... Thank you in advance. :hug:


You are trying to link verses 26 and 27 together. Verse 27 is referring to a desolation prophecy that was bugging Daniel when the chapter started. That Jeremiah prophecy is what caused Gabriel to speak to Daniel.


In verse 26 war time ends and so does a section of time that was determined to occur within the 70 weeks of years prophecy.
When you then begin to read about a "he" that will desolate for the time of verse 27 events - this is not connected to v 26, but is linked to the reason that Gabriel came over Daniel's supplicating to understand the timing of Jeremiah's he desolates prophecy.


Jeremiah 25:11 refers to how the Babylonian king must desolate Jerusalem for 70 years.
With the time of the Medes being the setting of Daniel 9 - Daniel has come to realize that the Medes have caused a break in Jeremiah's prophecy - for the Babylonian king did not desolate long enough yet.

Daniel supplicates, prays, fasts - he wants to know just when does the Babylonian king finish up his 70 years of being the desolator.
Gabriel comes and places Jeremiah's ending time of his prophecy into a whole new prophecy of 70 weeks.

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 04:51 PM
You are trying to link verses 26 and 27 together. Verse 27 is referring to a desolation prophecy that was bugging Daniel when the chapter started. That Jeremiah prophecy is what caused Gabriel to speak to Daniel.


In verse 26 war time ends and so does a section of time that was determined to occur within the 70 weeks of years prophecy.
When you then begin to read about a "he" that will desolate for the time of verse 27 events - this is not connected to v 26, but is linked to the reason that Gabriel came over Daniel's supplicating to understand the timing of Jeremiah's he desolates prophecy.


Jeremiah 25:11 refers to how the Babylonian king must desolate Jerusalem for 70 years.
With the time of the Medes being the setting of Daniel 9 - Daniel has come to realize that the Medes have caused a break in Jeremiah's prophecy - for the Babylonian king did not desolate long enough yet.

Daniel supplicates, prays, fasts - he wants to know just when does the Babylonian king finish up his 70 years of being the desolator.
Gabriel comes and places Jeremiah's ending time of his prophecy into a whole new prophecy of 70 weeks.

o-kay....so why does that negate what I said? I am still not understanding what you are saying, but we'll get it figured out. :)

vinsight4u8
Jan 29th 2009, 05:02 PM
what it says is that he will be of the people who destroyed the temple, which was the Romans...that means he has to be of Roman descent, or at least part of the original Roman Empire. He can actually be of that descent and come from anywhere in the world. I myself am English, Irish, Scotish, etc...and I actually come from America, I was born here. That doesn't mean that I do not still have the blood of those heritages. It just means I was born in America. So it is not necessarily a Roman, per se....just someone who has Roman blood. :)


You are saying that "it says" that he will be of the people who destroyed the temple - Romans.

It doesn't say that - and I'm trying to show that it doesn't actually lead the reader into that path; for we are to look at the 70 weeks as split into two determined times.

One - the Jews (some) went back - the temple was rebuilt - even the street - and it takes us clear to the time of the temple is destroyed again.

"shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"
"determined"

So none of this part was the clue that Daniel had been praying about as - to here is when the Babylonian king steps into power again and the Jeremiah 25:11 prophecy gets completed.
That part's information comes in the determined time given in Daniel 9:27.

--------------
I believe the reason that Gabriel laid out the 70 weeks in the way he did is because Daniel had back in v 17 been praying as to the sanctuary being desolate.

So Gabriel - reveals - the sanctuary and what will happen to it.

then in verse 27 reveals - the endtime events of when the Babylonian king will step back onto the world scene and finish the Jeremiah desolation prophecy.
(another determined section of time)

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 05:29 PM
You are saying that "it says" that he will be of the people who destroyed the temple - Romans.

It doesn't say that - and I'm trying to show that it doesn't actually lead the reader into that path; for we are to look at the 70 weeks as split into two determined times.

One - the Jews (some) went back - the temple was rebuilt - even the street - and it takes us clear to the time of the temple is destoyed again.

"shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"
"determined"

So none of this part was the clue that Daniel had been praying about as - to here is when the Babylonian king steps into power again and the Jeremiah 25:11 prophecy gets completed.
That part's information comes in the determined time given in Daniel 9:27.

--------------
I believe the reason that Gabriel laid out the 70 weeks in the way he did is because Daniel had back in v 17 been praying as to the sanctuary being desolate.

So Gabriel - reveals - the sanctuary and what will happen to it.

then in verse 27 reveals - the endtime events of when the Babylonian king will step back onto the world scene and finish the Jeremiah desolation prophecy.
(another determined section of time)


Okay, so you are saying that the Babylonians actually destroyed the temple and the ac will be Babylonian? Just asking to try to get it straight in my head...:)

vinsight4u8
Jan 29th 2009, 09:19 PM
Okay, so you are saying that the Babylonians actually destroyed the temple and the ac will be Babylonian? Just asking to try to get it straight in my head...:)

What I see is that at v26 one part of the prophecy ends....then much time passes before we get to where what Daniel prayed about at the start of the chapter comes in.
-----------

V 26 was about the days of Titus, but the "he" for v 27 does not connect up with him. We are to let v 27 be the answer that Daniel was seeking at the beginning of the chapter.

as to - how does Jeremiah 25 come to pass later

Gabriel came and showed Daniel that a whole lot of other events were to take place first.


Don't try to link the "he" of v 26 with the he that is found in v 27.

Instead, link up Daniel 9:2
"...he would accomplish seventy years..."
with v 27
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many...he shall make [it] desolate..."

(all of v 2 and v 27 desolation of the sanctuary part is done under the king of Babylon)
The Babylonian king - he must accomplish 70 years of desolation time while they are the rulers.

Then Jeremiah 25:12 can begin.
"And it shall come to pass when seventy years are accomplished..."
"when seventy years"
"accomplished"

"I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, andd the land of the Chaldeans..."

When the 70 years come to pass - the last king of Babylon is going to be ruling for that final week of Daniel 9:27. The man will be taken down and his Chaldean land.

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 10:59 PM
What I see is that at v26 one part of the prophecy ends....then much time passes before we get to where what Daniel prayed about at the start of the chapter comes in.
-----------

V 26 was about the days of Titus, but the "he" for v 27 does not connect up with him. We are to let v 27 be the answer that Daniel was seeking at the beginning of the chapter.

as to - how does Jeremiah 25 come to pass later

Gabriel came and showed Daniel that a whole lot of other events were to take place first.


Don't try to link the "he" of v 26 with the he that is found in v 27.

Instead, link up Daniel 9:2
"...he would accomplish seventy years..."
with v 27
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many...he shall make [it] desolate..."

(all of v 2 and v 27 desolation of the sanctuary part is done under the king of Babylon)
The Babylonian king - he must accomplish 70 years of desolation time while they are the rulers.

Then Jeremiah 25:12 can begin.
"And it shall come to pass when seventy years are accomplished..."
"when seventy years"
"accomplished"

"I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, andd the land of the Chaldeans..."

When the 70 years come to pass - the last king of Babylon is going to be ruling for that final week of Daniel 9:27. The man will be taken down and his Chaldean land.


Okay, I think I see what you are saying now, but I still disagree. :) I think the verses are linked together. It is odd to try to go all over the book of Daniel trying to make what we believe fit when it is already right there in front of us. But I do appreciate your searching of the scriptures...God Bless.

Jerome1
Jan 29th 2009, 11:03 PM
Nearly 300 years after this vision (many days) , Antiochus stopped the sacrifices for 2300 morning and evening sacrifices over a period of exactly 1150 days. The Jews to this day celebrate the taking back of the temple as a Jewish holiday.

These verses may have a dual fulfilment in the antichrist in the way that this man takes over the temple and deceives Jews and desecrates the temple, and calls himself God. But the specifics of which country this person comes from etc can only apply to Antiochus in its context and not to a future antichrist. This chapter is clearly about a man who rules one of the four divisions of the Greek empire towards the end of the Greek empire , we know this because Daniel is told this.

Antiochus was confronted by Rome and had to back down, because he recognised that Rome was greater, all four regions of the Greek empire soon fell to Rome after Antiochus died.


Good post DurbanDude, i can see you've been doing your homework.;)

ross3421
Jan 30th 2009, 12:59 AM
I started this thread as a question since this is a question I am asking and not making a statement. Daniel 8:21 and 22 speak about Grecia and it being broken up into 4 kingdoms.



Most commentaries I have read on this say this is talking about Alexander the great and his kingdom turning into 4 after his death. Rome is no where near where ancient Greece was. Niether is America. To me this seems to rule out the possibility that the anti-Christ could come from Rome or America.

Actually we are still living in the age of Grecia. The fourth kingdom which in itself is four parts has not come up upon the earth.

DurbanDude
Jan 30th 2009, 06:17 AM
Good post DurbanDude, i can see you've been doing your homework.;)

Thanks, its just that the antichrist is supposed to be Roman, Jewish and Arabic already, if we add on Greek to the list it gets a bit confusing :hmm:

vinsight4u8
Jan 30th 2009, 01:25 PM
Okay, I think I see what you are saying now, but I still disagree. :) I think the verses are linked together. It is odd to try to go all over the book of Daniel trying to make what we believe fit when it is already right there in front of us. But I do appreciate your searching of the scriptures...God Bless.


I'm not trying to go all over the book of Daniel to make what I believe fit. I agree -it is right there in front of us>
Did you read the whole chapter very carefully - jotting key points down as you went along?

Tell us --What made Gabriel go speak to Daniel?
Are you saying that the reason he came to him is not a major key to understanding the chapter?

v 23
"At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth..."

At the beginning of thy supplications...

beginning - so when did Daniel begin to supplicate?

v 3
"...to seek by prayer and supplications..."

------------Didn't the angel just link his reason for showing up clear back to the start of when Daniel began to supplicate?

v 23
"At the beginning of thy supplications....understand the matter..."

So - Daniel was yearning to understand something due to what he read that Jeremiah had written - now the angel comes to reveal the timing.

v 2
"...the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah..."
v 3
"And I set my face...and supplications..."
v 23
"At the beginning of they supplications...understand the matter..."

(So within verses 24-27 must come the understanding of Jeremiah's words)

jesuslover1968
Jan 30th 2009, 02:59 PM
I'm not trying to go all over the book of Daniel to make what I believe fit. I agree -it is right there in front of us>
Did you read the whole chapter very carefully - jotting key points down as you went along?


Of course I have done that. I have studied it extensively for years, as I am sure you have...:)




Tell us --What made Gabriel go speak to Daniel?
Are you saying that the reason he came to him is not a major key to understanding the chapter?



Yes, and no. It tells us why Gabriel went to talk to Daniel...He came to give him ( Daniel ) skill and understanding of the prophecy of the seventy weeks. And it IS important why he came, but it is more important to understand the prophecy itself. :)Why he came doesn't really have much bearing on the prophecy itself other than that he made it known what the prophecy really meant. When God uses people...or angels...to do HIS will, we are not to glory the messenger, but the one who sends the message. :)




v 23
"At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth..."

At the beginning of thy supplications...

beginning - so when did Daniel begin to supplicate?

v 3
"...to seek by prayer and supplications..."

------------Didn't the angel just link his reason for showing up clear back to the start of when Daniel began to supplicate?

v 23
"At the beginning of thy supplications....understand the matter..."

So - Daniel was yearning to understand something due to what he read that Jeremiah had written - now the angel comes to reveal the timing.

v 2
"...the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah..."
v 3
"And I set my face...and supplications..."
v 23
"At the beginning of they supplications...understand the matter..."

(So within verses 24-27 must come the understanding of Jeremiah's words)



and I agree with this. It does come WITHIN those verses...when we are writing, we write so as to be understood. Trying to say that when Daniel is talking about the ac he is referring back way to the beginning of the writing, rather than to the last person he talked about...( all in this specific instance, of course...) Is trying to make it say something it is not saying...

Daniel 9: 24-27

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

basically what this says is that the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary....which we KNOW to be the Romans...will have a prince that WILL come, but hasn't yet...hence the..."prince that SHALL come..." He will be of the Roman people. This is how I see it. I see that that isn't how you see it and you will not sway me, and I will not sway you, so I think we should just end this discussion before we get annoyed with each other...God Bless.

vinsight4u8
Jan 30th 2009, 11:01 PM
It tells us why Gabriel went to talk to Daniel...He came to give him ( Daniel ) skill and understanding of the prophecy of the seventy weeks.
Your comment<


Gabriel came to give Daniel skill as to the Jeremiah prophecy that he had been supplicating over.

Gabriel came due to Daniel's supplications.

Daniel could not have been supplicating over the 70 weeks that he had not yet heard about.

vinsight4u8
Jan 30th 2009, 11:06 PM
We let the chapter begin - Daniel 9

Where do we first find a time where Daniel's supplicates?

v 3
And I set my face unto the Lord God...to seek...supplications..."

--------------------the rest of the chapter continues - and we get to v 23

"At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew [thee]..."

Show him what?
The part at the beginning of the chapter that sent him to supplications.

v 24
"...to finish the transgression..."

as to show- that Daniel knew Jeremiah's prophecy that he supplicated over was not finished

----------Gabriel then places that supplicated over Jeremiah prophecy into the story of the 70 weeks.

vinsight4u8
Jan 30th 2009, 11:10 PM
When Gabriel tells Daniel the story as to where the prophecy of Jeremiah fits - What did he do just before that story began?

"understand the matter" - as in that you supplicated over


"consider the vision"

Why say that? Daniel isn't watching one then?
Daniel 9 doesn't contain a vision?

Yet - the angel wants Daniel to take one into account as he gets told the story of the 70 weeks.

Why?

Daniel 10:1-2
where Daniel saw a vision for the end - and then mourned for three full weeks

rom826
Feb 1st 2009, 02:05 PM
Hi icononclast,

The bible itself interprets the vision , so we don't need to be rocket scientists to interpret this:



Daniel was given this vision during Belshazzar's reign, the "writing was on the wall for Belshazzar", the Persians were about to take over. This vision is firstly about the next ruler of Babylon.

This is self explanatory, Greece sonquered Persia, Alexander the Great swept quickly through the middle east.

After he died, the Greek empire was split between his 4 generals.

Just before Rome conquered all 4 regions of the old Greek empire, Antiochus starting reigning over the middle eastern portion of the 4 Greek empires. He came to power deceitfully.

He prospered, increased his kingdom, conquered the southern kingdom (Egypt) and practised evil, and persecuted the Jews. He called himself "God manifest" (Antiochus IV Epiphanes). At this point, if you believe in dual fulfilment of prophey, you could also regard this as applying to a future antichrist that Antiochus resembled.

He called himself God and persecuted the Jewish religion terribly. He died suddenly of disease while campaigning.

Nearly 300 years after this vision (many days) , Antiochus stopped the sacrifices for 2300 morning and evening sacrifices over a period of exactly 1150 days. The Jews to this day celebrate the taking back of the temple as a Jewish holiday.

These verses may have a dual fulfilment in the antichrist in the way that this man takes over the temple and deceives Jews and desecrates the temple, and calls himself God. But the specifics of which country this person comes from etc can only apply to Antiochus in its context and not to a future antichrist. This chapter is clearly about a man who rules one of the four divisions of the Greek empire towards the end of the Greek empire , we know this because Daniel is told this.

Antiochus was confronted by Rome and had to back down, because he recognised that Rome was greater, all four regions of the Greek empire soon fell to Rome after Antiochus died.


A big reason I can't accept your interpretation here is because Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation as being future from the time that he lived on earth.

Mat. 24:15


When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand



Furthermore, the prophecy says 2300 days not 1150. Sounds to me like you are trying to make something fit that just does not fit.

DurbanDude
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:44 AM
A big reason I can't accept your interpretation here is because Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation as being future from the time that he lived on earth.
Mat. 24:15
.

The abomination is future, absolutely true! I'm not a preterist, I believe Daniel spoke of this same future abomination in Daniel 9:27 , and in Daniel 12. There is no mention of any abomination in Daniel 8. Jesus refers to a future abomination that is mentioned in Daniel, obviously he means Daniel 9 or Daniel 12 because these chapters are where the abomination is mentioned.




Furthermore, the prophecy says 2300 days not 1150. Sounds to me like you are trying to make something fit that just does not fit


Rom826, you are probably reading the KJV, which is normally very accurate, but sometimes they seem to translate based on assumption. If you check with the Strongs you can confirm that the correct translation is as follows:

14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated


It is a strange and deliberate phrase "evenings and mornings", and its easy to assume it means 2300 days. But technically 2300 evenings and mornings is only 1150 days if you add them together. Its easier to understand the phrase when you take into account that "evenings and mornings" is the way they used to refer to their twice daily sacrifices which explains it all.

Anyway, 2300 days would not fit into the 3.5 year prophesied period, 2300 days is 6 years 4 months, which does not match any other prophecy.

iconoclast2012
Feb 5th 2009, 02:52 PM
Hi icononclast,

The bible itself interprets the vision , so we don't need to be rocket scientists to interpret this:



Daniel was given this vision during Belshazzar's reign, the "writing was on the wall for Belshazzar", the Persians were about to take over. This vision is firstly about the next ruler of Babylon.

This is self explanatory, Greece sonquered Persia, Alexander the Great swept quickly through the middle east.

After he died, the Greek empire was split between his 4 generals.

Just before Rome conquered all 4 regions of the old Greek empire, Antiochus starting reigning over the middle eastern portion of the 4 Greek empires. He came to power deceitfully.

He prospered, increased his kingdom, conquered the southern kingdom (Egypt) and practised evil, and persecuted the Jews. He called himself "God manifest" (Antiochus IV Epiphanes). At this point, if you believe in dual fulfilment of prophey, you could also regard this as applying to a future antichrist that Antiochus resembled.

He called himself God and persecuted the Jewish religion terribly. He died suddenly of disease while campaigning.

Nearly 300 years after this vision (many days) , Antiochus stopped the sacrifices for 2300 morning and evening sacrifices over a period of exactly 1150 days. The Jews to this day celebrate the taking back of the temple as a Jewish holiday.

These verses may have a dual fulfilment in the antichrist in the way that this man takes over the temple and deceives Jews and desecrates the temple, and calls himself God. But the specifics of which country this person comes from etc can only apply to Antiochus in its context and not to a future antichrist. This chapter is clearly about a man who rules one of the four divisions of the Greek empire towards the end of the Greek empire , we know this because Daniel is told this.

Antiochus was confronted by Rome and had to back down, because he recognised that Rome was greater, all four regions of the Greek empire soon fell to Rome after Antiochus died.
...Hi'there double D.and an excellent disertation on your part,in fact if I recall correctly this is the exact copy almost word for word verbatim I was taught many moons ago as a youngin' way back when in bible class however,as "incomplete" as this version remains until this very day, I see that quite a few here still subscribe to this "short" version....allow me to expand. The keynote speaker here in fact is the angel "Gabriel" who is commanded to make this man understand....V.16. what we witness here is that on "three seperate occasions" the angel telling Daniel this vision is for the end times in the far distant future....V.17,19,& 26.Well now tell me brethren....Why O' Why is Gabriel sooooo emphatic about this,that he feel's it necessary to repeat it "THREE TIMES....? Didn't Daniel get it the first time...or the second time...? Not once,not twice, but THRICE....! Well I dare say there is a dual fullfillment of this vision...(Which is shut up...closed...?) for many day's V.26. In my humble opinion Gabriel repeats this to make Daniel & us (future readers) understand that this vision's ultimate fullfillment would be....at the end of day's. Therefore I see Daniels version of this vision as a literal representation of near future prophecy about Antiochus E. PIP (antichrist type)...Whereas Gabriel's interpretation combines both near future & distant future fullfillment, as he provides more details of end-time a.c.in verses 23,24,& 25....that Daniel has not mentioned.Well that being said I suspect that in the near future we shall see the ultimate fullfillment of said prophecy...Peace Brethren

rom826
Feb 5th 2009, 03:37 PM
...Hi'there double D.and an excellent disertation on your part,in fact if I recall correctly this is the exact copy almost word for word verbatim I was taught many moons ago as a youngin' way back when in bible class however,as "incomplete" as this version remains until this very day, I see that quite a few here still subscribe to this "short" version....allow me to expand. The keynote speaker here in fact is the angel "Gabriel" who is commanded to make this man understand....V.16. what we witness here is that on "three seperate occasions" the angel telling Daniel this vision is for the end times in the far distant future....V.17,19,& 26.Well now tell me brethren....Why O' Why is Gabriel sooooo emphatic about this,that he feel's it necessary to repeat it "THREE TIMES....? Didn't Daniel get it the first time...or the second time...? Not once,not twice, but THRICE....! Well I dare say there is a dual fullfillment of this vision...(Which is shut up...closed...?) for many day's V.26. In my humble opinion Gabriel repeats this to make Daniel & us (future readers) understand that this vision's ultimate fullfillment would be....at the end of day's. Therefore I see Daniels version of this vision as a literal representation of near future prophecy about Antiochus E. PIP (antichrist type)...Whereas Gabriel's interpretation combines both near future & distant future fullfillment, as he provides more details of end-time a.c.in verses 23,24,& 25....that Daniel has not mentioned.Well that being said I suspect that in the near future we shall see the ultimate fullfillment of said prophecy...Peace Brethren

If it is a dual fulfillment, does that mean that the future anti-christ has to come from from somewhere within the ancient Greece empire?

iconoclast2012
Feb 5th 2009, 06:28 PM
If it is a dual fulfillment, does that mean that the future anti-christ has to come from from somewhere within the ancient Greece empire?
...HI ROM...To give u an honest & direct answer to ur question,simply....I do not know...I refuse to speculate & i've read every single scenario predicated on v.22..."Now that being broken,Whereas four stood up for it,four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation,but not in his power"....The ambiguity I see is that it reads "The" nation...whereas..."THIS "nation would have created more clarity...However the major question I see that developes & culminates in the final sentence of this chapter..."But NONE UNDERSTOOD IT...!!!! Whoa now...Did Gabriel fail...?...Remember V.16 Gabriel "Make this man to understand the vision"...& here we have Daniel, certainly one of the most beloved & wisest of old testament prophets admitting in the very last verse that he still does'nt get it....!!!! V.27 "And I Daniel fainted,.........,And I was astonished at the vision,but "NONE UNDERSTOOD IT"...So now with that in mind am I to be so presumtuous as to say that I understand it completely...I certainly do not....What say ye..

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 08:32 AM
...Hi'there double D.and an excellent disertation on your part,in fact if I recall correctly this is the exact copy almost word for word verbatim I was taught many moons ago as a youngin' way back when in bible class however,as "incomplete" as this version remains until this very day, I see that quite a few here still subscribe to this "short" version....allow me to expand. The keynote speaker here in fact is the angel "Gabriel" who is commanded to make this man understand....V.16. what we witness here is that on "three seperate occasions" the angel telling Daniel this vision is for the end times in the far distant future....V.17,19,& 26.Well now tell me brethren....Why O' Why is Gabriel sooooo emphatic about this,that he feel's it necessary to repeat it "THREE TIMES....? Didn't Daniel get it the first time...or the second time...? Not once,not twice, but THRICE....! Well I dare say there is a dual fullfillment of this vision...(Which is shut up...closed...?) for many day's V.26. In my humble opinion Gabriel repeats this to make Daniel & us (future readers) understand that this vision's ultimate fullfillment would be....at the end of day's. Therefore I see Daniels version of this vision as a literal representation of near future prophecy about Antiochus E. PIP (antichrist type)...Whereas Gabriel's interpretation combines both near future & distant future fullfillment, as he provides more details of end-time a.c.in verses 23,24,& 25....that Daniel has not mentioned.Well that being said I suspect that in the near future we shall see the ultimate fullfillment of said prophecy...Peace Brethren

Well said, yes I also believe in dual fulfilment, however I also apply basic logic when necessary. It is possible for a detailed series of events to co-incide , its just that in Daniel 2, and Daniel 7, and Rev 13 and Rev 17 we have descriptions of the final empire more related to arising out of TEN divisions than 4 divisions. In Daniel 7 , the empire with ten divisions is AFTER the empire with 4 divisions (Greece). There is nothing else to indicate the antichrist is from Greece, yet at least 4 different verses indicate the final empire will be related to Rome. Thus Daniel 8 is predominately about Antiochus, and even the time-period fits in with Antiochus and not the 3.5 years/42 months/1260 days mentioned elsewhere that relate specifically to the antichrist.

The dual fulfilment is just that Antiochus has some similarities to the antichrist, so if we look for a similar character in the future, this is the time of the end.

Addiionally there are other explanations for the 3 referrals to the time of the end that you mention:

8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Listed above are the 3 mentions , however if you read carefully only ONE mention is made of the time of the end, verse 17.

Verse 19 is just saying that the end of the indignation will happen at its appointed time, I believe this is an encouragement to believe in the 2300 mornings and evenings, the indignation had a very clear time limit. In context this is the most logical explanation, and has nothing to do with the end-times, but everything to do with the Jews retaking the temple after 2300 sacrifices were stopped by Antiochus, which is the indignation being referred to in the passage.

Verse 26 says many days, well actually it was about 300 years, which is about 110 000 days, surely this fits in with "many days".

So in my opinion it is a complete exaggeration to state that the angel stressed this point 3 times about the time of the end, he merely mentioned it once. But remember we have been in the last days since Christ, because even at Pentecost this was regarded as the last days of Joel. For someone in exile in Babylon, all these events were the end-times, from Antiochus , to the coming evil fourth empire of Rome,to Christ's first coming, and to the second coming.

iconoclast2012
Feb 6th 2009, 10:36 AM
Well said, yes I also believe in dual fulfilment, however I also apply basic logic when necessary. It is possible for a detailed series of events to co-incide , its just that in Daniel 2, and Daniel 7, and Rev 13 and Rev 17 we have descriptions of the final empire more related to arising out of TEN divisions than 4 divisions. In Daniel 7 , the empire with ten divisions is AFTER the empire with 4 divisions (Greece). There is nothing else to indicate the antichrist is from Greece, yet at least 4 different verses indicate the final empire will be related to Rome. Thus Daniel 8 is predominately about Antiochus, and even the time-period fits in with Antiochus and not the 3.5 years/42 months/1260 days mentioned elsewhere that relate specifically to the antichrist.

The dual fulfilment is just that Antiochus has some similarities to the antichrist, so if we look for a similar character in the future, this is the time of the end.

Addiionally there are other explanations for the 3 referrals to the time of the end that you mention:

8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Listed above are the 3 mentions , however if you read carefully only ONE mention is made of the time of the end, verse 17.

Verse 19 is just saying that the end of the indignation will happen at its appointed time, I believe this is an encouragement to believe in the 2300 mornings and evenings, the indignation had a very clear time limit. In context this is the most logical explanation, and has nothing to do with the end-times, but everything to do with the Jews retaking the temple after 2300 sacrifices were stopped by Antiochus, which is the indignation being referred to in the passage.

Verse 26 says many days, well actually it was about 300 years, which is about 110 000 days, surely this fits in with "many days".

So in my opinion it is a complete exaggeration to state that the angel stressed this point 3 times about the time of the end, he merely mentioned it once. But remember we have been in the last days since Christ, because even at Pentecost this was regarded as the last days of Joel. For someone in exile in Babylon, all these events were the end-times, from Antiochus , to the coming evil fourth empire of Rome,to Christ's first coming, and to the second coming.
...Hey Double D, & Thank u for ur responce...which only leaves me w/one question? Is there any part of DAN.8 that remains to be fullfilled before the return of Christ & Do u subscribe to a final 7 year week....?

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 02:19 PM
...Hey Double D, & Thank u for ur responce...which only leaves me w/one question? Is there any part of DAN.8 that remains to be fullfilled before the return of Christ & Do u subscribe to a final 7 year week....?


I do subscribe to the dual fulfilment view, so I do believe that some aspects of Daniel 8 will be fulfilled also by the antichrist, Antiochus is a close prototype of the future antichrist, and the similarities are emphasized by the repeated close description of the 2 characters in various chapters of Daniel. The main similarities here are that both set up an abomination in the temple, both call themselves God, both deceive the Jews.

The final 7 year week is from Daniel 9:27, and I have an unique view of this, and end up debating with both preterists and futurists about my interpretation.

You see, the last week starts at year 483 of the 490 year period. It was at year 483 that we are told someone would confirm a covenant, and then 3.5 years later would put an end to sacrifice and offering. Jesus started His ministry at year 483, and then 3.5 years later Jesus put an end to all Godly accepted sacrifice and offering once and for all, the last acceptable sacrifice to God occurred at the crucifixion. So we have Jesus confirming the Messianic promise of God to send a Messiah to the Jews, and we have Jesus also being the last sacrifice. This all fits in too perfectly to be ignored.

Then in the gospels we have Jesus saying that the sign to look out for is the abomination, and this will be followed by a short period of tribulation. Then Rev 12, Rev 13, and other places mention this 3.5 year final period of tribulations and persecutons under the rule of the antichrist or "beast". Mention is made of 1260 days/42 months/3.5 years/half a seven, this is the consistent future period.

So I am a post trib, premill futurist, yet I believe in a 3.5 year tribulation period and not a 7 year period. The first half of Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled nearly 2000 years ago.