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Teleiosis
Jan 28th 2009, 04:36 AM
Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?
Well excuse me for butting in here, but this was the first post I wanted to respond to in this thread. So, I'm coming in here late, and going back a few days... but maybe I have an answer. The question Kahtar asks goes back to a deeper theological question:

Where do we go when we die?

The simplest answer Paul gives is with Jesus. However, Paul taught that to beginners later in his ministry. I think Paul learned to "KISS" - to Keep It Simple (Stupid).

Paul's earliest letters were more detailed and more eschatological. However, in his letters first to the Thessalonians and then to the Corinthians, we see that discussing deep issues causes confusion.

Moreover, Paul's simple answer, which so many Christians cling feverently, goes against what Jesus said in John 14:2 - that He was coming back for the Disciples (who all died eventually) and when He did - then He would take "us" to where He was going. So looking at that verse, we aren't with Jesus until such time as He returns.

This fits right along with what Paul taught earlier to the Thessalonians and Corinthians: the resurrection of the Dead in Christ.

So on a superficial level, it looks like Paul is saying two things and they both can't be right. However, I can reconcile the two differing versions of what Paul says when I look at Paul using the KISS principle with beginners. The essential truth is all who go to Paradise will be with Jesus in the end for the Millennium, which is longer than their lives, and furthermore for all eternity after that. So why confuse the beginners with all the details of eschatology? They're having enough problem applying the basic Gospel message in daily living - no sense in telling them there's a waiting period before the payoff.


__________________________________________________ _____

This selective resurrection follows a pattern given four times in the Bible of two resurrections: the first just for the (spiritually) Living (who are physically dead) and the second for both the Living and the (spiritually) Dead who have both passed away (as in "dead as a doorknob).

So the gathering from Heaven is the same as John 5:24-25 (one of the four times two resurrections are mentioned).

If we're not in Heaven with Jesus how is it that we're in Heaven without Him?

I think that is because Heaven is layered, or multi-faceted, and I got this from something Paul wrote, what Jesus revealed to John, and what Jesus said.

- Paul spoke about someone who visited the "third" Heaven. Why did he specify "third?

- John, who was transported to the presence of the Father in His Temple in Heaven, saw a "second" Heaven where the martyred Saints awaited God's revenge upon the wicked who killed them. John only sees them when the floor, which is like glass, becomes transparent. When John sees them, they are not brought out of there, but told to wait. The fifth Seal is not finished when it is opened... And from the martyred Saints point-of-view they have the original glass ceiling!

- And Jesus told us about the story of Lazarus. It's not a parable because Jesus used a named individual. And it's funny that in all the Bible, of all the people who are raised from death - no one tells us what the life after this one is like. The only description we have is from Jesus of Paradise and Hades separated by a great gulf (the abyss?).

Indeed, when Jesus died, He told the thief on His right that they'd be in Paradise that day. I think Paradise is where the dead "rest" until they are called up by Jesus to the third Heaven of God's presence where Jesus is now.
So I layer Heaven.

Third Heaven: God the Father's presence
Second Heaven: right beneath the Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.
First Heaven: Paradise, where the Dead in Christ rest until called on the Day of the Lord.

On the Day of the Lord (with its signature Sun/moon/star event) the Dead in Christ are resurrected from Paradise (1Th 4:16 & Mt 24:31) and then Jesus comes with them on the clouds (1Th 3:13 - an observer-true description of one who is standing on the earth) to rapture those who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:22) and then delivers them (like the wheat of Mt 13:30) to the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude! (Rev 7:14)

Mark

possumliving
Jan 28th 2009, 04:44 AM
I totally agree with the "we go to paradise" view. I just completed a study on hadees a while back and found out some very interesting things. Hadees isn't hell. It is a place for disembodied spirits.

In the retelling of Lazurus and the rich man, there is a gulf between them. Something to keep them separate and the side that Lazurus is in is called Abraham's bosom.

So, in all honesty, the only answer I could come up with is that we are temporarily placed in paradise, if we die before Christ returns. Abraham's bosom is the place of Covenant.

Steph

quiet dove
Jan 28th 2009, 05:13 AM
Well excuse me for butting in here, but this was the first post I wanted to respond to in this thread. So, I'm coming in here late, and going back a few days... but maybe I have an answer. The question Kahtar asks goes back to a deeper theological question:

Where do we go when we die?

The simplest answer Paul gives is with Jesus. However, Paul taught that to beginners later in his ministry. I think Paul learned to "KISS" - to Keep It Simple (Stupid).

Paul's earliest letters were more detailed and more eschatological. However, in his letters first to the Thessalonians and then to the Corinthians, we see that discussing deep issues causes confusion.

Moreover, Paul's simple answer, which so many Christians cling feverently, goes against what Jesus said in John 14:2 - that He was coming back for the Disciples (who all died eventually) and when He did - then He would take "us" to where He was going. So looking at that verse, we aren't with Jesus until such time as He returns.

This fits right along with what Paul taught earlier to the Thessalonians and Corinthians: the resurrection of the Dead in Christ.

So on a superficial level, it looks like Paul is saying two things and they both can't be right. However, I can reconcile the two differing versions of what Paul says when I look at Paul using the KISS principle with beginners. The essential truth is all who go to Paradise will be with Jesus in the end for the Millennium, which is longer than their lives, and furthermore for all eternity after that. So why confuse the beginners with all the details of eschatology? They're having enough problem applying the basic Gospel message in daily living - no sense in telling them there's a waiting period before the payoff.


__________________________________________________ _____

This selective resurrection follows a pattern given four times in the Bible of two resurrections: the first just for the (spiritually) Living (who are physically dead) and the second for both the Living and the (spiritually) Dead who have both passed away (as in "dead as a doorknob).

So the gathering from Heaven is the same as John 5:24-25 (one of the four times two resurrections are mentioned).

If we're not in Heaven with Jesus how is it that we're in Heaven without Him?

I think that is because Heaven is layered, or multi-faceted, and I got this from something Paul wrote, what Jesus revealed to John, and what Jesus said.
- Paul spoke about someone who visited the "third" Heaven. Why did he specify "third?

- John, who was transported to the presence of the Father in His Temple in Heaven, saw a "second" Heaven where the martyred Saints awaited God's revenge upon the wicked who killed them. John only sees them when the floor, which is like glass, becomes transparent. When John sees them, they are not brought out of there, but told to wait. The fifth Seal is not finished when it is opened... And from the martyred Saints point-of-view they have the original glass ceiling!

- And Jesus told us about the story of Lazarus. It's not a parable because Jesus used a named individual. And it's funny that in all the Bible, of all the people who are raised from death - no one tells us what the life after this one is like. The only description we have is from Jesus of Paradise and Hades separated by a great gulf (the abyss?).

Indeed, when Jesus died, He told the thief on His right that they'd be in Paradise that day. I think Paradise is where the dead "rest" until they are called up by Jesus to the third Heaven of God's presence where Jesus is now.
So I layer Heaven.

Third Heaven: God the Father's presence
Second Heaven: right beneath the Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.
First Heaven: Paradise, where the Dead in Christ rest until called on the Day of the Lord.

On the Day of the Lord (with its signature Sun/moon/star event) the Dead in Christ are resurrected from Paradise (1Th 4:16 & Mt 24:31) and then Jesus comes with them on the clouds (1Th 3:13 - an observer-true description of one who is standing on the earth) to rapture those who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:22) and then delivers them (like the wheat of Mt 13:30) to the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude! (Rev 7:14)

Mark


2Co 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. :7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

When I die, I'll be seeing the Lord to be forever with Him, thats how I read it. Jesus also promises us to always be with us and us with Him, and thats in this life, so why should I wonder for one second if He will also be with me and me with Him when I leave this life.

The Bible simply does not say that we are "resting" anywhere in Paradise, it says that we will be with Him.

Third heaven just means heaven, not the clouds, not the stars, but Heaven.

Teleiosis
Jan 28th 2009, 09:24 AM
Very nice, and if you want to believe that then that's your choice. I can show you a view, I can't make you see.

However, you're going to have to reconcile 2Co 5:6 with 1Co 15:21

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
And 15:42

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead.
And 1Th 4:16

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
These verses go into detail as to what happens to those of us who have died normal deaths.

And from where is it that this happens?

JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
And what about this?

Jn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
If you want a case of competing Bible verses my friend, there are more to suggest that we are not whisked away to a single Heaven with Jesus when we die normal deaths.

So the question remains: where do we go when we die?

I suggest that the Dead in Christ rest -as Calvin so convincingly argues against "sleep" - is Paradise: a place of rest where there is water (Spirit) and Saints (Abraham).

This is a realm of Heaven so that Jesus' words in Mt 24:31 and the other Synoptic Gospels truthfully attests.

Furthermore, as to your assertion that nowhere in the Bible does it say we are resting in Paradise, I suggest you read Hebrews 4 and then tell me what "rest" we are going to enter into...

So it is not up to me to convince you, but for you to reconcile all the differing Bible verses referencing the resurrection of the dead.

R.I.P. is an apt phrase for any Christian tombstone, and it is not from some piece of dirt that the Dead in Christ are called, but where the soul goes. I can predict that you will not see old interned bodies rising up from the earth on the Day of the Lord if you camp out in a cemetery when that Day comes...

Mark

DurbanDude
Jan 28th 2009, 09:53 AM
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I'm not sure who is right in this debate, but I ask both parties to give their opinion on Rev 6. The souls of the slain are under the altar, and seem to be conscious.

Teleiosis
Jan 28th 2009, 10:21 AM
Those who are martyred are special, and they have a special holding place.

They are very, very close to being with God, however, they are not quite there. Like I said, John looks at them through the floor. They inturn, look at God's Temple in Heaven through their "glass" ceiling...

Notice they are not asleep. That was Calvin's argument. They are fully aware of what happened, that some time has passed, and that they will be avenged by God. The point of consciousness can support "rest" but not "sleep." "Sleep" is a euphemism for death and not what will happen to those who have passed away before this time.

Notice too that they're like the proverbial kids in the backseat - "When are we going to get there?" And God tells them in a little while... Meanwhile, their number is not quite right yet.

This Seal is opened up before the Great Tribulation is up on the Day of the Lord. That can be determined by the linear nature of the Seal chronology and the specific and unique marker of the Day of the Lord which is included in the sixth Seal: the Sun/moon/star event. Exactly when in conjunction with the one 'seven' is imprecise because we have no specific or unique event to tie it to. The opening of the fifth Seal just happens before the Day of the Lord. It could come about before the one 'seven' begins, during the first half oppression of the Saints by the anti-Christ, the midpoint abomination of the talking image of him, or during the Great Tribulation when many of the Elect (Christians, not "Tribulation Saints") will undergo their "Daniel moment" and have to decide to worship the beast or die.

I know one thing: the last two martyrs to complete the number are the Two Witnesses, and they are not called up, as I conclude from my studies, until the end of the one 'seven.'

In Rev 19-20, it is only after Armageddon (which coincides with the end of the one 'seven') that those martyrs we see in with the opening of the fifth Seal become alive like the Great Multitude before them and join the former in the third Heaven of God's presence in the Temple of the Father.

It is only at this time, when all who are selected (Elect) are alive that John declares the First Resurrection (which is selective calling only the spiritually living from the dead) complete.

Mark

quiet dove
Jan 28th 2009, 06:20 PM
These post were a derail of an existing thread in ETC, so this thread was created here in BC.

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 07:01 PM
Third Heaven: God the Father's presence
Second Heaven: right beneath the Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.
First Heaven: Paradise, where the Dead in Christ rest until called on the Day of the Lord.


Mark
Problem. Paradise is not in the First Heaven.


2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Clearly, Paradise is the Third Heaven as declared by Paul in the passage above.

Teleiosis
Jan 28th 2009, 10:04 PM
Yes, Paul does use "paradise" interchangeably with "heaven," however, I don't think he was trying to set the matter right as to how the dimensions beyond our natural world are ordered.

The Paradise Jesus described in Luke 17 is nothing like what John describes in Revelation chapters four and five.

The real problem with saying paradise as defined by Jesus is the same as the third heaven (as I order them) that John describes is that where are all the Christians?

John, one, has a writing kit (we find that out in Revelation 10:4) and two, he is an excellent reporter. He numbers everything he sees in Heaven but no mention of a great body of believers occurs until the Great Multitude is delivered (by Jesus on the Day of the Lord) in the sequence-of-events which transpire after the sixth Seal is broken!

So if we were to say as you have that paradise = heaven and the first that I have ordered is the same as the third... why is it that Jesus has to come and call out the Dead in Christ so they can be with Him as John 5:24-25 and 14:2-3 says?

Why are the Elect called from the ends of Heaven in Mt 24:31?

What I propose is a confluence of everything where the dimensions past this one where our souls reside away from the natural world of our three dimensions of space and a fourth of time is that all are heavenly, but different as to locale in these other dimensions.

Thus, we can say that heaven is paradise and paradise is heaven in a general sense, but when pressed we can differentiate the location of Paradise as told by Jesus to us in Luke as a separate domain than the Court of the Father in the Temple.

This preserves all equations that both Jesus and Paul make, yet solves the riddle as to why Jesus has to call the Dead in Christ out so as to be with Him and then come with Him to gather the rest of the Elect who haven't yet succumbed to the Great Tribulation on the Day of the Lord as indicated by Mt 24:29.

Mark

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 10:27 PM
Paradise is mentioned only three times in the Word of God.

The Revelation account describes it as 'the paradise of God.' Since we know that God resides in the third heaven, we can safely say Paul was speaking of a man that was caught up into the third heaven just as Scripture declares... into paradise, the paradise of God.

In Luke, when Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise, He was not lying. One must take into account that although Jesus body went in the tomb that day and did not come out of that tomb until the first day of the week, Jesus more than likely was not speaking of a physical day but rather a spiritual day. God's Word declares that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

That being said, I believe Jesus was speaking of a spiritual day and that He indeed was speaking of the same paradise found in 2 Corinthians and the same paradise in Revelation... the paradise of God.

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 01:33 AM
Well excuse me for butting in here, but this was the first post I wanted to respond to in this thread. So, I'm coming in here late, and going back a few days... but maybe I have an answer. The question Kahtar asks goes back to a deeper theological question:

Where do we go when we die?

The simplest answer Paul gives is with Jesus. However, Paul taught that to beginners later in his ministry. I think Paul learned to "KISS" - to Keep It Simple (Stupid).

Paul's earliest letters were more detailed and more eschatological. However, in his letters first to the Thessalonians and then to the Corinthians, we see that discussing deep issues causes confusion.

Moreover, Paul's simple answer, which so many Christians cling feverently, goes against what Jesus said in John 14:2 - that He was coming back for the Disciples (who all died eventually) and when He did - then He would take "us" to where He was going. So looking at that verse, we aren't with Jesus until such time as He returns.

This fits right along with what Paul taught earlier to the Thessalonians and Corinthians: the resurrection of the Dead in Christ.

So on a superficial level, it looks like Paul is saying two things and they both can't be right. However, I can reconcile the two differing versions of what Paul says when I look at Paul using the KISS principle with beginners. The essential truth is all who go to Paradise will be with Jesus in the end for the Millennium, which is longer than their lives, and furthermore for all eternity after that. So why confuse the beginners with all the details of eschatology? They're having enough problem applying the basic Gospel message in daily living - no sense in telling them there's a waiting period before the payoff.


__________________________________________________ _____

This selective resurrection follows a pattern given four times in the Bible of two resurrections: the first just for the (spiritually) Living (who are physically dead) and the second for both the Living and the (spiritually) Dead who have both passed away (as in "dead as a doorknob).

So the gathering from Heaven is the same as John 5:24-25 (one of the four times two resurrections are mentioned).

If we're not in Heaven with Jesus how is it that we're in Heaven without Him?

I think that is because Heaven is layered, or multi-faceted, and I got this from something Paul wrote, what Jesus revealed to John, and what Jesus said.

- Paul spoke about someone who visited the "third" Heaven. Why did he specify "third?

- John, who was transported to the presence of the Father in His Temple in Heaven, saw a "second" Heaven where the martyred Saints awaited God's revenge upon the wicked who killed them. John only sees them when the floor, which is like glass, becomes transparent. When John sees them, they are not brought out of there, but told to wait. The fifth Seal is not finished when it is opened... And from the martyred Saints point-of-view they have the original glass ceiling!

- And Jesus told us about the story of Lazarus. It's not a parable because Jesus used a named individual. And it's funny that in all the Bible, of all the people who are raised from death - no one tells us what the life after this one is like. The only description we have is from Jesus of Paradise and Hades separated by a great gulf (the abyss?).

Indeed, when Jesus died, He told the thief on His right that they'd be in Paradise that day. I think Paradise is where the dead "rest" until they are called up by Jesus to the third Heaven of God's presence where Jesus is now.
So I layer Heaven.

Third Heaven: God the Father's presence
Second Heaven: right beneath the Altar in God's Temple in Heaven.
First Heaven: Paradise, where the Dead in Christ rest until called on the Day of the Lord.

On the Day of the Lord (with its signature Sun/moon/star event) the Dead in Christ are resurrected from Paradise (1Th 4:16 & Mt 24:31) and then Jesus comes with them on the clouds (1Th 3:13 - an observer-true description of one who is standing on the earth) to rapture those who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:22) and then delivers them (like the wheat of Mt 13:30) to the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude! (Rev 7:14)

Mark


Mark,

You are on the right track, however, it is not that heaven is layered. Hades is in the earth, it is the abode of the dead. There you find Abraham's bosom and the place of torment. You are correct that Jesus told the disciples, He would return for them, they await Him in Abraham's bosom. All souls go to hades to await the resurrection, Consider,


John 3:13 ( KJV ) 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Acts 2:34 ( KJV ) 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


1 Samuel 28:13-15 ( KJV ) 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.



15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed;




We see that none are in heaven, we see that Samuel was brought up from his rest. Also Isaiah says,




Isaiah 26:17-21 ( KJV ) 17Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. 18We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.




20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.




The early church also believed that all souls go to hades to await the resurrection. So, let's look at where hades is. As we saw, Samuel came up from beneath the earth, and Isaiah says the people will enter their chambers, and,




Isaiah 26:19 ( KJV ) 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.




Paul tells us that the dead is in Christ shall rise first.




Peter tells us that Christ preached to the spirits in prison,




1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.




These were those who were in Noah's day so they were dead, however Peter goes on to tell us,




1 Peter 4:4-6 ( KJV ) 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.




We know when Christ died on the cross that He spent three days in the heart of the earth, We know He went to hades because David and Peter tell us so,




Acts 2:30-31 ( KJV ) 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.




So, I think it is abundantly clear that Abraham's bosom is in the earth. Having said that, Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in paradise that day, Paul also mentions being caught up to paradise, and Jesus speaks of the paradise of God. This seems to be a problem. However, if we understand paradise as an adjective and not a noun there is no problem. If we understand paradise as describing a place rather than the name of a place, everything fits nicely. Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" if we understand the word paradise as describing Abraham's bosom, there is no difficulty, just as the paradise of God, the Garden of Eden is described as paradise, I believe Jesus statement was a reference to the garden of Eden, because in Revelation when Jesus references the paradise of God, He has just spoken of the tree of life. The same thing with Paul, paradise as a description of the third heaven.



Regarding Revelation 6, the souls under the altar, apparently the altar represents the earth and the souls of the martyrs are in effect in Abraham's bosom.

Here is a quote from Victorinus, around 304 AD. a bishop in Syria and a martyr.

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain."] He relates that he saw under the altar of God, that is, under the earth, the souls of them that were slain. For both heaven and earth are called God’s altar, as saith the law, commanding in the symbolical form of the truth two altars to be made,—a golden one within, and a brazen one without. But we perceive that the golden altar is thus called heaven, by the testimony that our Lord bears to it; for He says, "When thou bringest thy gift to the altar" (assuredly our gifts are the prayers which we offer), "and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar." (Matt. 5:23, 34) Assuredly prayers ascend to heaven. Therefore heaven is understood to be the golden altar which was within; for the priests also were accustomed to enter once in the year—as they who had the anointing—to the golden altar, the Holy Spirit signifying that Christ should do this once for all. As the golden altar is acknowledged to be heaven, so also by the brazen altar is understood the earth, under which is the Hades,—a region withdrawn from punishments and fires, and a place of repose for the saints, wherein indeed the righteous are seen and heard by the wicked, but they cannot be carried across to them. He who sees all things would have us to know that these saints, therefore—that is, the souls of the slain—are asking for vengeance for their blood, that is, of their body, from those that dwell upon the earth; but because in the last time, moreover, the reward of the saints will be perpetual, and the condemnation of the wicked shall come, it was told them to wait. And for a solace to their body, there were given unto each of them white robes. They received, says he, white robes, that is, the gift of the Holy Spirit.

possumliving
Jan 29th 2009, 01:43 AM
Cool!!! I had started doing the research on this and lost all of the files and stuff when my puter went down.

Thanks!

Steph

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 02:24 AM
The Word of God nowhere states that the Garden of Eden was, is, or ever will be the paradise of God. The Bible clearly tells us that paradise is in the third heaven.

I'll stick with the Word of God and believe that Paradise was, is and always has been in the third heaven.

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 02:30 AM
The Word of God nowhere states that the Garden of Eden was, is, or ever will be the paradise of God. The Bible clearly tells us that paradise is in the third heaven.

I'll stick with the Word of God and believe that Paradise was, is and always has been in the third heaven.

Believe whatever you want, that doesn't make it so. It's just coincidence that the tree of life is in there huh?

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 02:47 AM
Notice the Eden is on earth but Heaven is not. In Revelation, we read that the tree of life is on either side of the river that flows from God's throne.

On one side of the river, the tree of life on earth in the midst of the garden of Eden.

On the other side of the river, the tree of life in heaven.

Clearly the tree of life spans across space from heaven to earth. Paradise is in Heaven as the Word of God declares. Nowhere in the Word of God is paradise said to be in the earth.

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 02:59 AM
The Word of God nowhere states that the Garden of Eden was, is, or ever will be the paradise of God. The Bible clearly tells us that paradise is in the third heaven.

I'll stick with the Word of God and believe that Paradise was, is and always has been in the third heaven.


The LXX does indeed refer to the Garden of Eden as the paradise.

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 06:11 AM
Must be the only Bible version out there that does.

But just because they call Eden paradise does not mean that the paradise of Luke, 2 Corinthians, and Revalation is on this earth. As a matter of fact, Revelation proves it is in the third heaven... not on this earth.

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 11:07 PM
Notice the Eden is on earth but Heaven is not. In Revelation, we read that the tree of life is on either side of the river that flows from God's throne.

On one side of the river, the tree of life on earth in the midst of the garden of Eden.

On the other side of the river, the tree of life in heaven.

Clearly the tree of life spans across space from heaven to earth. Paradise is in Heaven as the Word of God declares. Nowhere in the Word of God is paradise said to be in the earth.

Where does Scripture teach that Paradise is in Heaven?

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 11:09 PM
Where does Scripture teach that Paradise is in Heaven?
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 11:13 PM
CommanderRobey---Must be the only Bible version out there that does.

It may be, but it is probably the most important since it is the one the apostles and Jesus quoted from.


CommanderRobey---But just because they call Eden paradise does not mean that the paradise of Luke, 2 Corinthians, and Revalation is on this earth. As a matter of fact, Revelation proves it is in the third heaven... not on this earth.

I never said that the paradise of God was on earth, I said that the garden of Eden is referred to as paradise. As I stated in my original post the paradise mentioned in Luke is in hades. I also said that if we understand paradise as a adjective, Paul's mention of paradise could be a description of the third heaven.

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 11:15 PM
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

As I said, this is most likely a description. Can you show me that this is a reference to two separate places???

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 11:19 PM
It may be, but it is probably the most important since it is the one the apostles and Jesus quoted from.
Speculation.


I never said that the paradise of God was on earth, I said that the garden of Eden is referred to as paradise. As I stated in my original post the paradise mentioned in Luke is in hades. I also said that if we understand paradise as a adjective, Paul's mention of paradise could be a description of the third heaven.Nowhere does Scripture say paradise is in hades. Where do you get that it is?

Butch5
Jan 30th 2009, 01:20 AM
CommanderRobey---Speculation.

It's not speculation,

Below are several New Testament quotes, I have given the the corresponding verses in the Old Testament, from both the Masoretic text which is the text used in almost all of the current English Bibles, and the Septuagint or the LXX, which is the Greek text used in the time of Christ. Notice how the Masoretic text does not follow the New Testament quotes as the Septuagint does. This is just a few, there are a lot more.

New Testament
Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV ) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Deuteronomy 32:43

Masoretic text
Deuteronomy 32:43 ( KJV ) 43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Where are the words, "And let all the angels of God worship him"?

Septuagint
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.


New Testament
Hebrews 10:5 ( KJV ) 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Psalm 40:6

Masoretic text
Psalms 40:6 ( KJV ) 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Where are the words, " but a body hast thou prepared me:"? This is an important part to leave out since it speaks of the incarnation of Christ.

Septuagint
Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.



New Testament
1 Peter 4:18 ( KJV ) 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Peter quotes Proverbs 11:31

Masoretic text
Proverbs 11:31 ( KJV ) 31Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Septuagint
Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?



New Testament
Matthew 3:3 ( KJV ) 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Here Matthew quotes Isaiah 40:3

Masoretic text
Isaiah 40:3 ( KJV ) 3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Septuagint
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.



New Testament
James 4:6 ( KJV ) 6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Here James quotes Proverbs 3:34

Masoretic text
Proverbs 3:34 ( KJV ) 34Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Septuagint
Proverbs 3:34 The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble.



New Testament
Matthew 15:7-9 ( KJV ) 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Here Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13

Masoretic text
Isaiah 29:13 ( KJV ) 13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Septuagint,
Isaiah 29:13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.


New Testament
Matthew 21:16 ( KJV ) 16And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Masoretic text
Psalms 8:2 ( KJV ) 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Septuagint,
Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger.



CommanderRobey---Nowhere does Scripture say paradise is in hades. Where do you get that it is?

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise, Scripture says that when Jesus died He spent three days in the heart of the earth, David said Speaking of Christ, "you will not leave my soul in hades". So, when Jesus died He went into hte heart of the earth, Therefore hades is in the earth, He was there three days, He told the thief he would be with Him in paradise that same day.

Butch5
Jan 30th 2009, 01:25 AM
As I said, this is most likely a description. Can you show me that this is a reference to two separate places???

Actually, after looking at this a little more, it seems it may in fact be two separate places, If it is, the it is a different place than the third heaven.

bennie
Jan 30th 2009, 04:21 AM
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I'm not sure who is right in this debate, but I ask both parties to give their opinion on Rev 6. The souls of the slain are under the altar, and seem to be conscious.

Hi DD

A question for you. Did Abel's blood really cry out to the Lord? Or was it figirative? His blood did not cry to the Lord for vengance. The Lord knew what Cain had done. The Lord knows about the martyrs under the altar.
Remember in the OT when they sloughterd a bull or sacrifice, the priest kept some of the blood of the animals in a container at the foot of the altar. Same image here in revelation.

bennie

Sirus
Jan 30th 2009, 04:43 AM
Nowhere in the Word of God is paradise said to be in the earth.


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Ezekiel saw it carried by winged beast. BTW; he also speaks of the trees and river during the 1000 year earthly reign.

Teleiosis
Jan 30th 2009, 10:57 PM
Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise, Scripture says that when Jesus died He spent three days in the heart of the earth, David said Speaking of Christ, "you will not leave my soul in hades". So, when Jesus died He went into hte heart of the earth, Therefore hades is in the earth, He was there three days, He told the thief he would be with Him in paradise that same day.

So all the movies which show an underground world inside the earth are true?

And in this vast underground world, as Jesus describes to us in Luke, there is a chasm which splits it in two that no one, despite all the great engineers who passed on long ago can bridge?

And not only is Hades in the earth, paradise is too?

How much mass do souls have?
Are they observable phenomenon of this world?
Do souls require a physical space in the natural world to exist?
Do souls really travel through rock to this place?

Or are we talking about a place in a dimension beyond our natural one (with a thin rocky crust and a molten interior) which could house billions?

Mark

CommanderRobey
Jan 30th 2009, 11:06 PM
As I stated before, I believe Jesus was not speaking of a literal day. If He was referring to some place on earth, why would He even have to release them from this Utopia? That's what paradise means... a utopia.

2 Corinthians 12 tells us where paradise is... in the third heaven. Why doubt the Word of God?

Is the third heaven on this earth? I cannot find any indication in the Word of God that it is.

Butch5
Jan 30th 2009, 11:51 PM
So all the movies which show an underground world inside the earth are true?

And in this vast underground world, as Jesus describes to us in Luke, there is a chasm which splits it in two that no one, despite all the great engineers who passed on long ago can bridge?

And not only is Hades in the earth, paradise is too?

How much mass do souls have?
Are they observable phenomenon of this world?
Do souls require a physical space in the natural world to exist?
Do souls really travel through rock to this place?

Or are we talking about a place in a dimension beyond our natural one (with a thin rocky crust and a molten interior) which could house billions?

Mark

You can answer the questions, I simply showed what Scripture says. We may be talking about another dimension, it may be in the earth. I may be an actual physical place in the earth, the Scripture doesn't tell us. You say the earth has a molten interior, how do you know? Have you seen it? The point is Scripture says it is in the earth.

Butch5
Jan 30th 2009, 11:56 PM
As I stated before, I believe Jesus was not speaking of a literal day. If He was referring to some place on earth, why would He even have to release them from this Utopia? That's what paradise means... a utopia.

2 Corinthians 12 tells us where paradise is... in the third heaven. Why doubt the Word of God?

Is the third heaven on this earth? I cannot find any indication in the Word of God that it is.

If you want to understand paradise and the third heaven a separate, the Scripture does not say that paradise is in the third heaven. Paul said he know a man caught up to the third heaven and he knew a man caught up to paradise. Seems like two different places. 2 Corinthians 12 does not say that paradise is in the third heaven.

Butch5
Jan 30th 2009, 11:58 PM
As I stated before, I believe Jesus was not speaking of a literal day. If He was referring to some place on earth, why would He even have to release them from this Utopia? That's what paradise means... a utopia.

Not sure what you are getting at here.

Teleiosis
Jan 31st 2009, 02:01 AM
The point is Scripture says it is in the earth.

No, I think in the context of the understanding they had then was that this realm was "in the earth" because they buried people until such time as they could just remove and preserve the bones.

"In the earth," is a euphemism as much as "sleep" was for being dead.

I can answer the questions I posed, but the real work is for you to answer them...

Teleiosis
Jan 31st 2009, 02:06 AM
That's what paradise means... a utopia.

As words mean things, paradise does not mean utopia.

Paradise means garden.
Utopia means (literally) nowhere.

Now some authors have drawn parallels between the Garden of Eden and the third Heaven as both being gardens. That very well may be... we'll see too, I hope - if I perservere and don't give up my faith to falsehood (the abomination/mark of the beast) or lose it and become like a drunkard wallowing in my own filthy ideas...

Thus I can understand the interchangeability between Paradise and Heaven in Scripture as Paul uses them.

Yet, there remains a very real question: Where do we go when we die and why is it that Christ has to call us out from there so as to be with Him when He comes again?

Mark

Butch5
Jan 31st 2009, 02:29 AM
Teleiosis ---I can answer the questions I posed.

Please, do tell!

possumliving
Jan 31st 2009, 03:40 AM
Hi DD

A question for you. Did Abel's blood really cry out to the Lord? Or was it figirative? His blood did not cry to the Lord for vengance. The Lord knew what Cain had done. The Lord knows about the martyrs under the altar.
Remember in the OT when they sloughterd a bull or sacrifice, the priest kept some of the blood of the animals in a container at the foot of the altar. Same image here in revelation.

bennie

Gen 4:10 And [the Lord] said, What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.

Job 16:18 O earth, cover not my blood, and let my cry have no resting-place [where it will cease being heard].

Gen 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with the life of it, which is its blood.

Lev 17:11 For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].

Lev 17:14 As for the life of all flesh, the blood of it represents the life of it; therefore I said to the Israelites, You shall partake of the blood of no kind of flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats of it shall be cut off.

Deut 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you may not eat the life with the flesh.

I believe it is not just figurative, but for real!

Steph

CommanderRobey
Jan 31st 2009, 04:01 AM
Gen 4:10 And [the Lord] said, What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.

Job 16:18 O earth, cover not my blood, and let my cry have no resting-place [where it will cease being heard].

Gen 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with the life of it, which is its blood.

Lev 17:11 For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].

Lev 17:14 As for the life of all flesh, the blood of it represents the life of it; therefore I said to the Israelites, You shall partake of the blood of no kind of flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats of it shall be cut off.

Deut 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you may not eat the life with the flesh.

I believe it is not just figurative, but for real!

Steph

Don't forget Christ's blood cried from the cross. (Heb. 12:24)

David Taylor
Jan 31st 2009, 01:25 PM
Yet, there remains a very real question: Where do we go when we die and why is it that Christ has to call us out from there so as to be with Him when He comes again?

Mark

Very simple biblical answer.

We follow Christ's example and pattern.


Like Him, our material bodies go into the tomb at death and our immaterial spirits go to be with the Father in heaven, awaiting the time of the resurrection of and glorification of our bodies.