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Fresco
Jan 29th 2009, 12:47 AM
All the evil in the world, is it right according to God's plan???

I once thought it wasnt till a friend looked me in the face and said: "Did you think all the world's evil is a bug in Gods windows program"??
Then I thought about it and dawned on me its all right according to his master plan. Nothing happens by accident, it all has a purpose.

And IMO satan was created for this exact purpose, to deceive and cause havoc around the world. If that werent true God would just kill him being the almighty and all powerful God that He is.

Opinions??

markdrums
Jan 29th 2009, 12:59 AM
All the evil in the world, is it right according to God's plan???

I once thought it wasnt till a friend looked me in the face and said: "Did you think all the world's evil is a bug in Gods windows program"??
Then I thought about it and dawned on me its all right according to his master plan. Nothing happens by accident, it all has a purpose.

And IMO satan was created for this exact purpose, to deceive and cause havoc around the world. If that werent true God would just kill him being the almighty and all powerful God that He is.

Opinions??

I think you're kind of on the right track,..... but here's what I can offer as an explanation.

God KNEW / KNOWS what will happen. Even before the angels were created, before the Heavens & the Earth were created.

But I don't think that means he "MADE things happen" in a particular way.
We have free will, just as the angels do.

Satan (Lucifer) CHOSE to rebel, but wasn't created to do so. (If that were the case, it wouldn't really be Satan's fault that he rebelled.) He made a willful choice... just as Adam & Eve did in the garden.

But.... God KNEW exactly what would happen beforehand.
He also knew what it would take to bring salvation to his people. And because he wanted to have that relationship with us,... a GENUINE ralationship based on our own choice, he was willing to send a substitue sacrifice for our sins, through Jesus' crucifixion.

If there was no TRUE CHOICE, then nothing would have any real meaning or value.

So, I agree that there was a "plan" in action..... but it wasn't necessarily that God CREATED Satan as "evil". However; because of real free will, he allowed the POTENTIAL for evil.

(Make sense?)

RogerW
Jan 29th 2009, 01:07 AM
All the evil in the world, is it right according to God's plan???

I once thought it wasnt till a friend looked me in the face and said: "Did you think all the world's evil is a bug in Gods windows program"??
Then I thought about it and dawned on me its all right according to his master plan. Nothing happens by accident, it all has a purpose.

And IMO satan was created for this exact purpose, to deceive and cause havoc around the world. If that werent true God would just kill him being the almighty and all powerful God that He is.

Opinions??

Greetings Fresco,

I agree! It has always been part of God's plan to use sin and evil to accomplish His purposes. Sin and evil cannot exist unless God allows them to. In fact we find some evidence in Scripture where God Himself takes credit for creating evil (Isa 45:7).

Many Blessings,
RW

BrckBrln
Jan 29th 2009, 01:14 AM
In my opinion, everybody who says God only knew what would happen if He created satan and man is trying to get God 'off the hook' for something where there is no need for God to get off the hook. I struggled with this question some time ago and there is only one solution, that is, God ordained for evil to exist. And this comforts me a great deal.

markdrums
Jan 29th 2009, 01:23 AM
In my opinion, everybody who says God only knew what would happen if He created satan and man is trying to get God 'off the hook' for something where there is no need for God to get off the hook. I struggled with this question some time ago and there is only one solution, that is, God ordained for evil to exist. And this comforts me a great deal.


I think I understand what you're saying..... but I don't think I have to "let God off the hook".

His knowing what would happen, did not change the fact that he still allowed it to, based on our free will.
Creating the potential for evil, and knowing that it WOULD enter into his creation, isn't an "excuse" or an attempt to "help God out with some kind of "whipped up explanation".
(He doesn't need my "help" there...... LOL!)

Again, I agree that there was a plan.
I disagree that his plan was to BRING evil into existence.... I think his "plan" was the conquering of sin & evil.

;)

Fresco
Jan 29th 2009, 01:30 AM
Again, I agree that there was a plan.
I disagree that his plan was to BRING evil into existence.... I think his "plan" was the conquering of sin & evil.

;)But before you can conquer sin & evil, it first has to exist.
And for it to exist it has to be created

Also how will we know how to do good, if we dont first know what evil is??

RogerW
Jan 29th 2009, 01:44 AM
But before you can conquer of sin & evil, it first has to exist.
And for it to exist it has to be created

Also how will we know how to do good, if we dont first know what evil is??

Hi Fresco,

Excellent questions! It's also interesting to read "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made" (Gen 3:1). Why would God make the serpent more "subtil" (cunning, crafty, prudent) then the rest of the beasts of the field, and then allow him to come into His "very good" creation where no sin or evil yet exists? Would God have not known that being more subtil than any creature, he would be able to easily deceive the woman?

Many Blessings,
RW

markdrums
Jan 29th 2009, 01:55 AM
But before you can conquer of sin & evil, it first has to exist.
And for it to exist it has to be created

Also how will we know how to do good, if we dont first know what evil is??


To say God "Created" imperfection is kind of going against God's nature.
His CREATION, having a willfull choice, brought evil into existence.

In order to have TRUE choice & Free Will, you have to have the opportunity to go either way. Otherwise, it's not really a choice; it's more of being programmed like a robot, with no distinct personality. This would make true love an impossibility as well.

Sin was definitely NOT "created" by God. But God DID allow for sin & evil to exist because of our genuine choice.

That's why CHOOSING salvation based on our personal acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins is "a choice".

If God "created" evil by choice, and forced ALL OF US (Mandkind / Adam & Eve / you & I / etc...) into the curse of sin & death right from the start, then his SALVATION should be for everyone as well; Without having to ask for it, & without having to believe upon the Lord as our substitute sacrifice.

Right?

:hmm:

Fresco
Jan 29th 2009, 02:11 AM
To say God "Created" imperfection is kind of going against God's nature.
His CREATION, having a willfull choice, brought evil into existence.

In order to have TRUE choice & Free Will, you have to have the opportunity to go either way. Otherwise, it's not really a choice; it's more of being programmed like a robot, with no distinct personality. This would make true love an impossibility as well.

Sin was definitely NOT "created" by God. But God DID allow for sin & evil to exist because of our genuine choice.

That's why CHOOSING salvation based on our personal acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins is "a choice".

If God "created" evil by choice, and forced ALL OF US (Mandkind / Adam & Eve / you & I / etc...) into the curse of sin & death right from the start, then his SALVATION should be for everyone as well; Without having to ask for it, & without having to believe upon the Lord as our substitute sacrifice.

Right?

:hmm:
I dont think there's as much choice in choosing between good and evil as you claim. The Bible says sin is passed down 3 or 4 generations. So if my mother is a heroin addicted prostitute, then there's a very good chance I might not turn out so well either in society. I might have the best intentions, but I'll be a slave to character traits that were passed down from my mother.

Also Job had no choice in his suffering, he was considered the most upstanding person of his generation, yet he still had to go through some severe suffering. Even though he didnt really do anything to deserve it

markdrums
Jan 29th 2009, 02:28 AM
I dont think there's as much choice in choosing between good and evil as you claim. The Bible says sin is passed down 3 or 4 generations. So if my mother is a heroin addicted prostitute, then there's a very good chance I might not turn out so well either in society. I might have the best intentions, but I'll be a slave to character traits that were passed down from my mother.

Also Job had no choice in his suffering, he was considered the most upstanding person of his generation, yet he still had to go through some severe suffering. Even though he didnt really do anything to deserve it

I think you're mixing topics & contexts here.....
BUT.... back to the original topic of "Creating Sin / Evil"; let me pose the questions/ comments this way:

Why would a PERFECT God create imperfection? In fact, weren't the angels, (as well as Adam & Eve) cerated WITH perfection?

It was because of the choices by free will of God's creations, that evil & sin entered into existence; not because God created them as evil or imperfect.

When scripture tells us that God "created ALL things".... we need to give that a little thought.
Evil exists, no doubt about it.... it exists because God created the angels & people who had a real choice.

Drug abuse exists... but I would put the blame on mankind's choices for it's existence.
Sexual immorality exists.... again, because of mankind's choice.
Greed exists..... etc......

God did not create the evil itself..... Evil & sin are IMPERFECT, complete opposite of God.

God cannot change, cannot err, and cannot go against his true nature. And for God to create imperfection, would be to do just that.

BrckBrln
Jan 29th 2009, 02:35 AM
In order to have TRUE choice & Free Will, you have to have the opportunity to go either way. Otherwise, it's not really a choice; it's more of being programmed like a robot, with no distinct personality. This would make true love an impossibility as well.

I don't agree with this at all. What about Heaven? Will there be opportunity for rebellion in Heaven? If there isn't, then according to this kind of thinking we will never really love God in Heaven.

Fresco
Jan 29th 2009, 02:49 AM
Drug abuse exists... but I would put the blame on mankind's choices for it's existence.
Sexual immorality exists.... again, because of mankind's choice.
Greed exists..... etc......

Thats true, but Job's suffering was not by choice, and he certainly didnt deserve to suffer since he was a pillar of the community. That leads me to believe that God planned for evil to happen, regardless if we deserve it or not

markdrums
Jan 29th 2009, 02:53 AM
I don't agree with this at all. What about Heaven? Will there be opportunity for rebellion in Heaven? If there isn't, then according to this kind of thinking we will never really love God in Heaven.


So, we don't "choose" our eternity? We're programmed, or dragged into Heaven?

To think God created sin, & forced us into the curse, would mean we're also forced into salvation.... which would mean there's no real love.

Giving US the choice makes it REAL.

Our choices NOW are actualized in eternity.
If we choose to have a relationship with our creator, and choose salvation by the grace of our substitute sacrificial Lamb, then we're saying we WANT TO BE perfect... like Christ.

We WANT TO spend an eternity free from sin. Just like Christ..... by our own personal choices.

If we choose to reject him, we're saying, "That's our eternal wish".

I don't see how eliminating the chance for sin, rebellion, and evil in the "New Heaven / New Earth," means there's no choice & no real love.

Heaven is exactly what we as believers are beleiving in & hoping for. That PERFECT eternal existence.... away from sin once & for all..... for all eternity.

We'll be COMPLETELY perfect, holy, and righteous... just like our creator / savior.... because WE choose.

God created perfection, not evil. And God will RESTORE perfection, & permanently eliminate evil.

markdrums
Jan 29th 2009, 02:58 AM
Thats true, but Job's suffering was not by choice, and he certainly didnt deserve to suffer since he was a pillar of the community. That leads me to believe that God planned for evil to happen, regardless if we deserve it or not


No, Job DIDN'T choose to suffer... you're right.
But GOD didn't create or plan Job's suffering either..... he ALLOWED it.

God KNEW Job's faith. He KNEW suffering wouldn't change a thing in Job's beliefs.

I still disagree with the "creation" of evil.
God CREATED perfection, & had a PLAN for salvation.

BrckBrln
Jan 29th 2009, 03:02 AM
So, we don't "choose" our eternity? We're programmed, or dragged into Heaven?

To think God created sin, & forced us into the curse, would mean we're also forced into salvation.... which would mean there's no real love.

Giving US the choice makes it REAL.

Our choices NOW are actualized in eternity.
If we choose to have a relationship with our creator, and choose salvation by the grace of our substitute sacrificial Lamb, then we're saying we WANT TO BE perfect... like Christ.

We WANT TO spend an eternity free from sin. Just like Christ..... by our own personal choices.

If we choose to reject him, we're saying, "That's our eternal wish".

I don't see how eliminating the chance for sin, rebellion, and evil in the "New Heaven / New Earth," means there's no choice & no real love.

Heaven is exactly what we as believers are beleiving in & hoping for. That PERFECT eternal existence.... away from sin once & for all..... for all eternity.

We'll be COMPLETELY perfect, holy, and righteous... just like our creator / savior.... because WE choose.

God created perfection, not evil. And God will RESTORE perfection, & permanently eliminate evil.

That doesn't really answer the question. Even if we 'choose' now what we want for eternity why wouldn't we be able to change our mind in eternity? If you say that in order to love God there must be the opportunity to choose evil or rebel then you must apply that to Heaven or else, it seems to me, you are being inconsistent.

The reasoning that says in order for our choices to be real we must have complete free will is absurd. That's like saying in order for our lives to have meaning then God must not be independent for if God is independent and all knowing then what is the purpose? The reason our lives have meaning is because God says they do and the reason our choices have meaning is because God says they do.

Fresco
Jan 29th 2009, 03:02 AM
God created perfection, not evil
How do you know He didnt create evil??
Which scripture(s) are you basing this on??

God will RESTORE perfection, & permanently eliminate evil.
That much we can agree on :yes:

livingwaters
Jan 29th 2009, 03:16 AM
Evil or good is a choice....and believe you me, God does know how to deal with evil!!! So, if Adam and Eve would have made the right choice we would still have life as in "the Garden of Eden." In my opinion, once we make the wrong or evil choice, and we are a child of God, it is our Father's love and strong chastisement that brings us back on tract. Without HIS hand on us, we would self-destruct.
Genesis 2:9 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Genesis+2:9&version=9)
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (freedom of choice-they were warned)

So, yes, God's wrath will be upon the evil and wicked that reject HIM!!! So, if you think it means that it is in HIS plan, I guess it is!!! I mean look at satan, he's a dead duck....we all know the end of the book!!!
So, we reap what we sow. God gave Jesus as our atonement for our sin, so that we could be cleansed and saved through HIS precious blood and could live a righteous life..Thank YOU, Father God. The world has been given ample opportunity to come to the Lord!!!! So, when that day comes, some will hear, "depart from me, I knew you not"(paraphrase)

markdrums
Jan 29th 2009, 03:39 AM
That doesn't really answer the question. Even if we 'choose' now what we want for eternity why wouldn't we be able to change our mind in eternity? If you say that in order to love God there must be the opportunity to choose evil or rebel then you must apply that to Heaven or else, it seems to me, you are being inconsistent.

The reasoning that says in order for our choices to be real we must have complete free will is absurd. That's like saying in order for our lives to have meaning then God must not be independent for if God is independent and all knowing then what is the purpose? The reason our lives have meaning is because God says they do and the reason our choices have meaning is because God says they do.


I think you totally missed the answer in my post. ;)

What we're CHOOSING now, in THIS life, as believers... is to be JUST LIKE CHRIST for eternity.
GOD has NO potential of being evil. It's COMPLETELY AGAINST his nature. (Which is why the "penalty" of sin is "death".)

If we're WILLFULY CHOOSING to be just like Jesus, what are we saying?

Personally, I'M saying, "Yes. I WANT TO BE perfectly holy & righteous forever & ever. I never want sin to be an issue ever again."

Or.... the opposite choice is....?

Either way. It's Heaven or Hell... forever & ever & ever......

If we're not making a choice today for a perfect eternity, where sin & evil have been conquered, then what was the sacrifice for?

And if it's not our choice, and never was at all.... then we've been programmed; and nothing is our fault because "God made us that way".

That's the issue I see with God "creating" evil as part of his plan.

markdrums
Jan 29th 2009, 03:55 AM
How do you know He didnt create evil??
Which scripture(s) are you basing this on??

That much we can agree on :yes:

I say God didn't create evil, based on the fact the WE were created IN HIS IMAGE. - being PERFECT....
Gen 1:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=26&t=KJV#26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Also that we are choosing to be Like Christ:
Rom 6:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=4&t=KJV#4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


But he gave us a choice.
THAT'S the whole key!

forum lurker
Jan 29th 2009, 09:51 AM
I agree with markdrums. Just like the Jews had a choice to accept Jesus as their messiah, but didn't choose so, I believe that Satan also had a choice to not to rebel. So there were 2 plans, but the one involving sin was carried out.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 29th 2009, 11:03 PM
What does His Word say?


I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Explains it for me...

billy-brown 2
Jan 31st 2009, 07:23 PM
What does His Word say?


I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Explains it for me...

Not so fast there . . .:o

Is not the context of your scripture passage the return of the Jewish exiles from the 70-year Babylonian captivity by Cyrus' decree?

Here's the passage in context:

Isa. 45: 1-13:

1 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-2.htm) Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed,
Whom I have taken by the right hand,
To subdue nations before him
And to loose the loins of kings;
To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

2 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-2.htm) “I will go before you and make the rough places smooth;
I will shatter the doors of bronze and cut through their iron bars.

3 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-3.htm) “I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.

4 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-4.htm) “For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me.

5 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-5.htm) “I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

6 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-6.htm) That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,

7 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-7.htm) The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

8 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-8.htm) “Drip down, O heavens, from above,
And let the clouds pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit,
And righteousness spring up with it.
I, the LORD, have created it.

9 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-9.htm) “Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

10 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-10.htm) “Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to a woman, ‘To what are you giving birth?’”

11 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-11.htm) Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons,
And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands.

12 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-12.htm) “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
I stretched out the heavens with My hands
And I ordained all their host.

13 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-13.htm) “I have aroused him in righteousness
And I will make all his ways smooth;
He will build My city and will let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward,” says the LORD of hosts.

Now, R. C. Sproul wrote a book entitled "Knowing Scripture" in 1977 (published by InterVarsity Press) and explains the scripture passage in question as follows:

"The ability to recognize parallelisms can often clear up apparent difficulties in understanding a text. It can also enrich our depth perception of various passages. . . . The resolution of this problematic passage is simple if we recognize the obvious presence of an antithetical parallelism in it. In the first part light is set in contrast with darkness. In the second part peace is set in contrast with evil. What is the opposite of peace? The kind of "evil" is that evil which is contrasted not with goodness but with "peace." The New American Standard Bible, a recent translation, reads, "Causing well-being and creating calamity." That is a more accurate rendition of this thought expressed by antithetic parallelism. The point of the passage is that ultimately God brings the blessing of well-being and peace to a godly people but visits them with calamity when he acts in judgment. That is a long way from a notion of being the creator of evil originally."


Something to think again about . . .:kiss:

Dani H
Jan 31st 2009, 08:09 PM
I think that's all good and well, but the danger happens where we may think "oh well that's what God did and there's nothing I can do about it except let it happen."

I think the Bible is very clear that, in the face of much evil, that those who profess God are to be actively involved in doing good, as that is God's character, who we are to emulate. Because even a little good overcomes much evil, a little light dispels much darkness, and love covers a multitude of sin. :)

Yukerboy
Jan 31st 2009, 08:14 PM
To say there are two plans is to say that God is not ominscient.

He knows all, therefore He plans for all.

He knew Adam would sin, but sin, being within the perfect will of God, created Adam anyway.

billy-brown 2
Jan 31st 2009, 09:08 PM
I think that's all good and well, but the danger happens where we may think "oh well that's what God did and there's nothing I can do about it except let it happen."

I think the Bible is very clear that, in the face of much evil, that those who profess God are to be actively involved in doing good, as that is God's character, who we are to emulate. Because even a little good overcomes much evil, a little light dispels much darkness, and love covers a multitude of sin. :)


That's a great thought there . . .

The character of our God is evident--He judges sin through calamity.

But as we do good, "evil" is overcome. :pp

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 31st 2009, 09:09 PM
Not so fast there . . .:o

Is not the context of your scripture passage the return of the Jewish exiles from the 70-year Babylonian captivity by Cyrus' decree?

Here's the passage in context:

Isa. 45: 1-13:

1 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-2.htm) Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed,
Whom I have taken by the right hand,
To subdue nations before him
And to loose the loins of kings;
To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

2 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-2.htm) “I will go before you and make the rough places smooth;
I will shatter the doors of bronze and cut through their iron bars.

3 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-3.htm) “I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.

4 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-4.htm) “For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me.

5 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-5.htm) “I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

6 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-6.htm) That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,

7 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-7.htm) The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

8 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-8.htm) “Drip down, O heavens, from above,
And let the clouds pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit,
And righteousness spring up with it.
I, the LORD, have created it.

9 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-9.htm) “Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

10 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-10.htm) “Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to a woman, ‘To what are you giving birth?’”

11 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-11.htm) Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons,
And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands.

12 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-12.htm) “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
I stretched out the heavens with My hands
And I ordained all their host.

13 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-13.htm) “I have aroused him in righteousness
And I will make all his ways smooth;
He will build My city and will let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward,” says the LORD of hosts.

Now, R. C. Sproul wrote a book entitled "Knowing Scripture" in 1977 (published by InterVarsity Press) and explains the scripture passage in question as follows:

"The ability to recognize parallelisms can often clear up apparent difficulties in understanding a text. It can also enrich our depth perception of various passages. . . . The resolution of this problematic passage is simple if we recognize the obvious presence of an antithetical parallelism in it. In the first part light is set in contrast with darkness. In the second part peace is set in contrast with evil. What is the opposite of peace? The kind of "evil" is that evil which is contrasted not with goodness but with "peace." The New American Standard Bible, a recent translation, reads, "Causing well-being and creating calamity." That is a more accurate rendition of this thought expressed by antithetic parallelism. The point of the passage is that ultimately God brings the blessing of well-being and peace to a godly people but visits them with calamity when he acts in judgment. That is a long way from a notion of being the creator of evil originally."


Something to think again about . . .:kiss:
------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is something for you to think about....:hmm::hmm::hmm:

Do you believe God is Soveriegn over all? even the evil that happens?


God was there before Creation..

Even before He created satan and his angels...

Did God know satan would rebel and sin BEFORE He created him and those that followed Him?

God 'knows' all..... He has ALWAYS been.. even before He created satan.. and He 'knew' he would rebel and sin.. and God 'knew' that man would fall too...

God 'knew' that satan would become evil.. even before He created Him...

thats if you believe God has 'foreknowledge'..

Yes God had a plan already in place ... that His Son would die on a Cross.. His plan of Redemption.....this way before anything was Created... from the Foundatition of the World...

so if God 'knew' satan would 'rebel' and become evil.. even though he was created full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.......

then why did He still go about Creating Him? if he knew he would become evil...?????

so God created a being that was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty but turned 'evil'.. thru his pride...

Can one 'percieve' evil.. unless they have experienced 'goodness'?

Can one 'experience' Mercy and understand what it is without witnessing or experiencing 'wrath' that takes place around him/her?



some may believe that God created all this then had to somehow quickly come up with a plan of Salvation... when satan rebelled and when man fell...making it appear as though God was 'caught' off guard...

I can guaranteee He was not and He has always Been and 'knows' perfectly the beginning from the end...


In Job... did satan do all of that stuff to Job.. did he do that out of his own will? Who Started that conversation? between God and satan...do you think God used satan as a tool?

create: in the Hebrew text:

) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

evil: in the Hebrew text

adj
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
2) deeds, actions
n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)


I'll stick to what His Word says ...... thanks for the dialogue..

billy-brown 2
Feb 1st 2009, 01:27 AM
------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is something for you to think about....:hmm::hmm::hmm:

Do you believe God is Soveriegn over all? even the evil that happens?


God was there before Creation..

Even before He created satan and his angels...

Did God know satan would rebel and sin BEFORE He created him and those that followed Him?

God 'knows' all..... He has ALWAYS been.. even before He created satan.. and He 'knew' he would rebel and sin.. and God 'knew' that man would fall too...

God 'knew' that satan would become evil.. even before He created Him...

thats if you believe God has 'foreknowledge'..

Yes God had a plan already in place ... that His Son would die on a Cross.. His plan of Redemption.....this way before anything was Created... from the Foundatition of the World...

so if God 'knew' satan would 'rebel' and become evil.. even though he was created full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.......

then why did He still go about Creating Him? if he knew he would become evil...?????

so God created a being that was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty but turned 'evil'.. thru his pride...

Can one 'percieve' evil.. unless they have experienced 'goodness'?

Can one 'experience' Mercy and understand what it is without witnessing or experiencing 'wrath' that takes place around him/her?



some may believe that God created all this then had to somehow quickly come up with a plan of Salvation... when satan rebelled and when man fell...making it appear as though God was 'caught' off guard...

I can guaranteee He was not and He has always Been and 'knows' perfectly the beginning from the end...


In Job... did satan do all of that stuff to Job.. did he do that out of his own will? Who Started that conversation? between God and satan...do you think God used satan as a tool?

create: in the Hebrew text:

) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

evil: in the Hebrew text

adj
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
2) deeds, actions
n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)


I'll stick to what His Word says ...... thanks for the dialogue..


Hi theBelovedDisciple, ;)

Everything you are saying is logical and right and so on (especially the Hebrew references); congratulations to you . . . but your response brings up more questions still.

Your response has me thinking about what the attributes of God are.

(The saints around here were in a Bible study about this very thing about 4 weeks ago . . . )

Let me first follow your logic here . .

God knows ALL (as you have rightly mentioned; this is true).

God created Adam, Eve, and Lucifer as perfect beings (as I know you know; this is true also).

God knew Adam, Eve, and Lucifer would fall--this indeed is His foreknowledge at work (you suggest this indeed; this is true as well).

So far, so good.

But did not God created Adam, Eve, and Lucifer with free will--so they would have the choice to love God?

Love is not possible without choice, and God is Love (I John 4:16). God's foreknowledge is an "after the fact" thing--never the reverse.

You know that God created all things--and man was created in God's image so God would have fellowship with someone like Himself. So, God has placed aspects of His attributes in man. (Of course, man cannot create "the heavens and the earth" like God, but man has been given several attributes of God.)

In general, I sense that you are seeking to express the following (correct me if I am wrong):

God created Adam, Eve, and Lucifer for the "fall"--that in his "foreknowledge" He looked forward to "the fall" occurring so as to bring Christ at some point (as ordained "from the foundation of the world"). In the meantime, death through evil rebellion and sin would spread to all men--as "authored" by a God who "foreordained" it.

Would this not make our God a "cosmic killjoy" of the highest order? Is this an appropriate attribute of our God?

Did not our God make Adam, Eve, and Lucifer WITH THE ABILITY to choose--with consequences for the choices that they would make? To think otherwise is to compromise God's goodness, which is certainly one of God's attributes.

Indeed, it is the goodness of our God which moved Him to create beings TO HAVE A CHOICE to love Him or not love Him. Did not Adam, Eve, and Lucifer choose rebellion? Could not they have chosen to obey God in their love for Him? The answer to this must surely be "yes." (In this configuration, the "fall" would not have happened at all.)

Indeed, the attributes of the love and goodness of our God is what allowed Him the privilege of TAKING THE RISK of creating beings that can choose loyalty or rebellion. Now we know that our God, however, WILL NEVER CHOOSE rebellion--and this is due to the reality that He is "I AM"--the self-existing "Holy One". All existence would disintegrate immediately if our God were to choose rebellion in anyway.

Let's look below at a list of some of the names of our God which reveal his goodness. Remember, we (as God's creation du jour, mankind) are made in the IMAGE of these attributes, yes?

Adonai-Jehovah -- The Lord our Sovereign
El-Elyon -- The Lord Most High
El-Olam -- The Everlasting God
El-Shaddai -- The God Who is Sufficient for the Needs of His People
Jehovah-Elohim -- The Eternal Creator
Jehovah-Jireh -- The Lord our Provider
Jehovah-Nissi -- The Lord our Banner
Jehovah-Ropheka -- The Lord our Healer
Jehovah-Shalom -- The Lord our Peace
Jehovah-Tsidkenu -- The Lord our Righteousness
Jehovah-Mekaddishkem -- The Lord our Sanctifier
Jehovah-Sabaoth -- The Lord of Hosts
Jehovah-Shammah -- The Lord is Present
Jehovah-Rohi -- The Lord our Shepherd
Jehovah-Hoseenu -- The Lord our Maker
Jehovah-Eloheenu -- The Lord our God
etc. . . . etc. . . .

(There are many more names of God; this post needs to be sufficiently short, so I can't list all of them.)

Of course, these names reveal great things about the attributes of our God. Do any of the names reveal that God is "evil" in anyway? Are you are saying that our God has "evil rebellion" in his nature--to pass on to Adam, Eve, and Lucifer?

The Psalmist writes in Psalm 34:8 the following:

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Let's dialogue some more about this . . .

BroRog
Feb 1st 2009, 02:08 AM
All the evil in the world, is it right according to God's plan???

I once thought it wasnt till a friend looked me in the face and said: "Did you think all the world's evil is a bug in Gods windows program"??
Then I thought about it and dawned on me its all right according to his master plan. Nothing happens by accident, it all has a purpose.

And IMO satan was created for this exact purpose, to deceive and cause havoc around the world. If that werent true God would just kill him being the almighty and all powerful God that He is.

Opinions??

I think you are dead on the money. Nothing is outside God's power and everything is going according to his plan.

forum lurker
Feb 2nd 2009, 09:38 AM
To say there are two plans is to say that God is not ominscient.

He knows all, therefore He plans for all.

He knew Adam would sin, but sin, being within the perfect will of God, created Adam anyway.

I somewhat agree, how things are happening now are according to His primary plan. However I think scripture shows, that God has changed His plans when man turned away from sin and repented.

Fresco
Feb 2nd 2009, 01:33 PM
I somewhat agree, how things are happening now are according to His primary plan. However I think scripture shows, that God has changed His plans when man turned away from sin and repented.
Thats for sure

But to say that the state the present world is in, is not according to his Grand plan is untrue IMO.
To say otherwise is to say things got a little out of hand for God. He had a little oops!
Sorry, I dont buy that. Thats like saying his plan isnt perfect.

It also says in Bible bad things happen so good things can later come of it.
Suffering happens so good things can come out of it

Kudo Shinichi
Feb 2nd 2009, 01:48 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is something for you to think about....:hmm::hmm::hmm:

Do you believe God is Soveriegn over all? even the evil that happens?


God was there before Creation..

Even before He created satan and his angels...

Did God know satan would rebel and sin BEFORE He created him and those that followed Him?

God 'knows' all..... He has ALWAYS been.. even before He created satan.. and He 'knew' he would rebel and sin.. and God 'knew' that man would fall too...

God 'knew' that satan would become evil.. even before He created Him...

thats if you believe God has 'foreknowledge'..

Yes God had a plan already in place ... that His Son would die on a Cross.. His plan of Redemption.....this way before anything was Created... from the Foundatition of the World...

so if God 'knew' satan would 'rebel' and become evil.. even though he was created full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.......

then why did He still go about Creating Him? if he knew he would become evil...?????

so God created a being that was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty but turned 'evil'.. thru his pride...

Can one 'percieve' evil.. unless they have experienced 'goodness'?

Can one 'experience' Mercy and understand what it is without witnessing or experiencing 'wrath' that takes place around him/her?



some may believe that God created all this then had to somehow quickly come up with a plan of Salvation... when satan rebelled and when man fell...making it appear as though God was 'caught' off guard...

I can guaranteee He was not and He has always Been and 'knows' perfectly the beginning from the end...


In Job... did satan do all of that stuff to Job.. did he do that out of his own will? Who Started that conversation? between God and satan...do you think God used satan as a tool?

create: in the Hebrew text:

) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

evil: in the Hebrew text

adj
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
2) deeds, actions
n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)


I'll stick to what His Word says ...... thanks for the dialogue..

GOD is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Before he created the world he knew what would happen and he did of course plan to save us by sending his son to troubleshoot this problem.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter

Yukerboy
Feb 2nd 2009, 02:08 PM
I somewhat agree, how things are happening now are according to His primary plan. However I think scripture shows, that God has changed His plans when man turned away from sin and repented.

We know that God works all things for the good of the born again.

All things were created by God. All means all, whether they are powers, rulers, authorities, forces, all things in heaven and on earth. They were created by God and for God.

To the born again, all things are pure and to those who are not, all things are evil.

Hitler? Created by God, placed in power by God, and worked for the good of the born again.

Satan? Created by God, placed in power by God, and worked for the good of the born again.

Evil? Created by God, placed in power by God, and worked for the good of the born again.

All things happen according to God's plan. There is nothing that happens outside of it. Look at Revelation. Nothing in there happens outside the will of God, EVEN the ones not repenting from their sins as wrath is poured out on them.

forum lurker
Feb 2nd 2009, 02:56 PM
We know that God works all things for the good of the born again.

All things were created by God. All means all, whether they are powers, rulers, authorities, forces, all things in heaven and on earth. They were created by God and for God.

To the born again, all things are pure and to those who are not, all things are evil.

Hitler? Created by God, placed in power by God, and worked for the good of the born again.

Satan? Created by God, placed in power by God, and worked for the good of the born again.

Evil? Created by God, placed in power by God, and worked for the good of the born again.

All things happen according to God's plan. There is nothing that happens outside of it. Look at Revelation. Nothing in there happens outside the will of God, EVEN the ones not repenting from their sins as wrath is poured out on them.

Yes, that is why I said I somewhat agreed with you. Maybe I should have been more clear; Everything that happens is happening according to His plan. I just don't see everything set in stone, as if there is only one possible way things can unfold.

Don't you think, that God could sometimes choose not to know something in advance, for His amusement?

In Revelation, it is often mentioned with the judgements, that men didn't repent. Do you think they didn't have a chance to do so? I just don't see it as anybody's fault but their own.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (Gen. 2:15-17)

I believe that was an honest warning, God didn't warn Adam to tempt him.

threebigrocks
Feb 2nd 2009, 03:22 PM
Simply, God give us a choice.

If there were no choice, how could we choose Him? God's love would mean very little without the darkness of sin. We can clearly see that in Genesis 3, choose obedience to God or choose obedience to something else.

Galatians 6
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.



If we choose to sow, or be obedient to, the flesh - we reap corruption. If we sow, or be obedient to, the Spirit we reap eternal life.

Dani H
Feb 2nd 2009, 03:33 PM
I've been thinking about this subject and here are my 2 cents:

I wouldn't want to serve a God who doesn't have a firm grip on evil and who doesn't know how to use evil for His own purposes.

Of course God's nature is that of goodness and so forth, and there is no evil in Him. But because He is God, He doesn't have to only "allow it" but can actually actively use it and control it and deal with it on His own terms and according to His own purposes. Why? Because my God is my Redeemer. He can redeem anything, He can touch anything, He can change anything, He can do anything, He can use anything and work something beautiful from it. He is the Lord, and holy is His name.

To believe anything less makes the Lord less than who He is. The devil is God's devil, and is going to feed right into God's plan, as always. Evil people are not out of God's control and are going to feed right into His plan, as always. Nothing is beyond His reach. If we make our bed in sheol, He is still there. If we hide in the depths of darkness, then He is there. When evil overcomes us and the darkness is overwhelming, then He is able to deliver. That is my God. I can trust that. That is my rock and my firm foundation. No matter what, He has a firm grip on everything, and nothing escapes Him and He knows exactly what to do about it.

Yukerboy
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:47 PM
Yes, that is why I said I somewhat agreed with you. Maybe I should have been more clear; Everything that happens is happening according to His plan. I just don't see everything set in stone, as if there is only one possible way things can unfold.

I understand what you are saying, but if you are correct, then prophecy (The Revelation to John) is not a prophecy, but a possibility.


Don't you think, that God could sometimes choose not to know something in advance, for His amusement?

Absolutely. God is omniscient, yet tells those who were never saved "I never knew you".


In Revelation, it is often mentioned with the judgements, that men didn't repent. Do you think they didn't have a chance to do so? I just don't see it as anybody's fault but their own.

2 Timothy 2:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

I don't believe they were able to repent. It is God who grants repentance. Now, if they had free will and not bound by their sin nature that makes no one righteous and no one seeking after God, then they may have repented. However, being binded to sin, they had no choice but to do as their nature is.



15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (Gen. 2:15-17)

I believe that was an honest warning, God didn't warn Adam to tempt him.


I believe it was an honest warning too.

The difference is that once God gave the command, sin sprang up and Adam died. God, being omniscient, knew what would happen and gave Adam the command anyway. Adam very well may have never touched the fruit of the tree, but once the commandment came, Adam had no choice but to eat of it.

God gives commands knowing man would break them. God gave the law for the sole purpose of increasing the transgression of the law, increasing sin.

Does it go against the very nature of God? Some will say yes. I say that God did this according to His grand plan of salvation and redemption and mercy and grace.....and judgement and condemnation.

forum lurker
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:15 PM
I understand what you are saying, but if you are correct, then prophecy (The Revelation to John) is not a prophecy, but a possibility.

I disagree. To me foreknowledge doesn't remove the ability to make choices. Why would then God sometimes "repent", withdraw some of His judgements?



Absolutely. God is omniscient, yet tells those who were never saved "I never knew you".Well, so I guess we can at least entertain the idea, that to sin wasn't Adam's only choice, God might have chosen not to know if Adam was going to sin in his creation.



2 Timothy 2:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

I don't believe they were able to repent. It is God who grants repentance. Now, if they had free will and not bound by their sin nature that makes no one righteous and no one seeking after God, then they may have repented. However, being binded to sin, they had no choice but to do as their nature is.Agreed with both points. Still, why repentance (or lack of) is mentioned in Revelation, in my opinion shows, that even till the last days, God is hoping that His enemies would turn to repentance. For many it might too late, but not for everyone. What I'm getting at is, that the plan could have turned to be out different than how it was written. (I suppose you disagree.)


I believe it was an honest warning too.

The difference is that once God gave the command, sin sprang up and Adam died. God, being omniscient, knew what would happen and gave Adam the command anyway. Adam very well may have never touched the fruit of the tree, but once the commandment came, Adam had no choice but to eat of it.

God gives commands knowing man would break them. God gave the law for the sole purpose of increasing the transgression of the law, increasing sin.

Does it go against the very nature of God? Some will say yes. I say that God did this according to His grand plan of salvation and redemption and mercy and grace.....and judgement and condemnation.I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just can't say, because I don't know, that Adam had no choice but to eat from the tree of knowledge. I don't know, if Adam had resisted for longer, would God have rewarded him and given him more endurance and encouragement. I simply don't know, but since the option was there, I really think it was a real option.

billy-brown 2
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:47 PM
I've been thinking about this subject and here are my 2 cents:

I wouldn't want to serve a God who doesn't have a firm grip on evil and who doesn't know how to use evil for His own purposes.

Of course God's nature is that of goodness and so forth, and there is no evil in Him. But because He is God, He doesn't have to only "allow it" but can actually actively use it and control it and deal with it on His own terms and according to His own purposes. Why? Because my God is my Redeemer. He can redeem anything, He can touch anything, He can change anything, He can do anything, He can use anything and work something beautiful from it. He is the Lord, and holy is His name.

To believe anything less makes the Lord less than who He is. The devil is God's devil, and is going to feed right into God's plan, as always. Evil people are not out of God's control and are going to feed right into His plan, as always. Nothing is beyond His reach. If we make our bed in sheol, He is still there. If we hide in the depths of darkness, then He is there. When evil overcomes us and the darkness is overwhelming, then He is able to deliver. That is my God. I can trust that. That is my rock and my firm foundation. No matter what, He has a firm grip on everything, and nothing escapes Him and He knows exactly what to do about it.

yep . . . that ^^ :pp

dan
Feb 4th 2009, 02:17 PM
All the evil in the world, is it right according to God's plan???

I once thought it wasnt till a friend looked me in the face and said: "Did you think all the world's evil is a bug in Gods windows program"??
Then I thought about it and dawned on me its all right according to his master plan. Nothing happens by accident, it all has a purpose.

And IMO satan was created for this exact purpose, to deceive and cause havoc around the world. If that werent true God would just kill him being the almighty and all powerful God that He is.

Opinions??

...Read the Bible, God even takes credit:

IS 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
IS 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
IS 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

It is part of The Test.

Fresco
Feb 4th 2009, 02:52 PM
...Read the Bible
I do read the Bible (almost daily), but thanx for the advice

God even takes credit:

IS 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
IS 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
IS 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

It is part of The Test.
I take it you agree with me then :spin:

Julian
Feb 5th 2009, 07:17 AM
All the evil in the world, is it right according to God's plan???

I once thought it wasnt till a friend looked me in the face and said: "Did you think all the world's evil is a bug in Gods windows program"??
Then I thought about it and dawned on me its all right according to his master plan. Nothing happens by accident, it all has a purpose.

And IMO satan was created for this exact purpose, to deceive and cause havoc around the world. If that werent true God would just kill him being the almighty and all powerful God that He is.

Opinions??God hates evil, and his plan is to ultimately rid the world of evil - for Christ has already conquered Satan and will reign victorious in the end.

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

dan
Feb 5th 2009, 01:13 PM
I do read the Bible (almost daily), but thanx for the advice

I take it you agree with me then :spin:

...But, more importantly, you agree with God.

Fresco
Feb 5th 2009, 02:25 PM
...But, more importantly, you agree with God.
Yup, I sure do

Reason why I started this thread is because the verse you quoted:

IS 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

is the only verse that directly states God is creator of evil.
But in my Living Translation Bible its quoted a bit differently.
Its:

7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

Thats why I missed it

reformedct
Feb 5th 2009, 04:09 PM
All the evil in the world, is it right according to God's plan???

I once thought it wasnt till a friend looked me in the face and said: "Did you think all the world's evil is a bug in Gods windows program"??
Then I thought about it and dawned on me its all right according to his master plan. Nothing happens by accident, it all has a purpose.

And IMO satan was created for this exact purpose, to deceive and cause havoc around the world. If that werent true God would just kill him being the almighty and all powerful God that He is.

Opinions??

God uses even the evil in this world to turn out for good "what man meant for evil, God meant for good"

this doesnt mean God is responsible for sin. Its like if i built a park in my neighbor hood, and child molesters used it as a place to look for kids to snatch. Did i sin by making the park? no. God created a world in which it was possible for sin to happen, but He in no way is responsible for evil. Because He is good, even the evil that happens, God can turn around a use it for good. For example if someone is hooked on drugs, God can save them and use their life as a testimony to all who struggle with drugs. God used evil men to complete His plan of slaying Jesus. Those Jews thought they were getting rid of Jesus but behind the scenes God was turning their evil into a glorious triumph over sin and death.

once again, God created a world in which sin could exists, but He is not responsible for someones individual sin. For example, if you have eyes, it is possible for you to lust after what you dont have. Is God responsible for you using what He gave you for evil? heck no! lol

as far as the verse about God creating evil, i think the correct meaning is that God allows evil to come about and He can use evil to accomplish His will, as He sent an evil spirit to torment Saul, and as He allowed Satan to bring evil and calamity on Job. i dont think it means God says to Himself, i feel like creating a big ball of evil today lol

ps

just to clarify, there are two different responsibilities:

moral- this is a responsibility to maintain a moral character. in this sense God is not responsible for sin

authoritative- no event is out of the control of God, so God is in a sense responsible for how much evil is permitted, because He has the power to stop it, which sometimes He does step in and sometimes He doesnt. For example shadrach meshac and abendego could have been killed alive but God saved them, as well as he saved daniel. however God did not save John the Baptist, and many apostles were brutally murdered. I beleive Daniel says all the days for our live are already written in Gods book. This doesnt mean God has failed morally, He is patient, willing that all would come to repentance.

keyboard4eva
Feb 5th 2009, 04:44 PM
HE declares the end from the beginning, He is the Alpha and the Omega too.But mind you James 1:17 says
'Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.' God is not the author of evil He may allow it but it certainly does not originate from Him.Even as His children we should trust Him with our lives and He will direct our steps.He will guide us with his counsel and afterwards receive us into glory.;)

dan
Feb 11th 2009, 09:21 AM
Yup, I sure do

Reason why I started this thread is because the verse you quoted:

IS 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

is the only verse that directly states God is creator of evil.
But in my Living Translation Bible its quoted a bit differently.
Its:

7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

Thats why I missed it

...To acquire a KJV. Just for backup, of course.:lol: