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DurbanDude
Jan 29th 2009, 11:30 AM
The antichrist will directly control 3 of the ten regions of earth, I suspect the west, and especially America, will be one of those 3 regions. This can happen easily if America is weakened and starts compromising on policy. If america becomes more socialist and less powerful militarily America becomes vulnerable to outside forces, and already we have seen a weakening of debt and capitalistic principles by America because of crises.

The antichrist can take over if America is weaker and more interdependent on the world. Some say that the war with Islam is to weaken America. America's debt weakens America. The current supporting of "business" with hard earned American tax dollars is so against the principles of capitalism, capitalism says let the weak companies take a fall, and now they are being propped up with more American debt. And now there are plans to weaken your military, listen to the following link.

http://nukegingrich.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/video-proof-obama-will-destroy-america/

We needn't worry , because we are not of this world , but part of an eternal kingdom. I am just encouraging you to watch your backs as the American electorate, and not to just accept what we are told as wisdom just because it is spoken so well.

DurbanDude
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:46 AM
I was hoping to get 100 views on this thread, just missed it! Any comments on the video link and the plan to disarm the USA?

mfowler12
Feb 3rd 2009, 07:42 PM
If we truly are in the end times, why does it matter is the USA is disarmed? Isn't our hope suppose to rest in the Lord? Not a country, not a government, not a person nor even our family and friends. It is up to Jehovah to allow these unfortunate events to play out and to make sure that all things are accomplished. My boss said that the USA is like the muslim countries, "they both have religious nuts that cling to their guns." This is what we, as the Church, need to fight against. We claim to be a peaceful religion, for lack of a better word, but yet we care more about what politicians and celebrities say on TV than we do for our neighbors in their time of need.

Can we just trust God that He will provide for us no matter what?

MacGyver
Feb 4th 2009, 12:28 AM
I don't know if we are at the end of the end times, since the last hour has been here since the Church began (1 John 2:18). But as for the end of America as we know it, that could be possible. We are at a drunken state in our country. There are many things to get negative about, but I have decided here lately that as a Christian there are too many things to rejoice about that I am not going to let the decay of our nation determine my happiness. Don't get me wrong, I love America, but I cannot control the Free Will of the people, and they seem to have spoken and decided what kind of country they want.

Fresco
Feb 4th 2009, 01:34 AM
Some people believe the main Antichrist will be a middle-eastern figure (2 Thessalonians 2:4).
And by that time America will already have been destroyed (Rev17 and Rev18)

DurbanDude
Feb 4th 2009, 06:58 AM
If we truly are in the end times, why does it matter is the USA is disarmed? Isn't our hope suppose to rest in the Lord? Not a country, not a government, not a person nor even our family and friends. It is up to Jehovah to allow these unfortunate events to play out and to make sure that all things are accomplished. My boss said that the USA is like the muslim countries, "they both have religious nuts that cling to their guns." This is what we, as the Church, need to fight against. We claim to be a peaceful religion, for lack of a better word, but yet we care more about what politicians and celebrities say on TV than we do for our neighbors in their time of need.

Can we just trust God that He will provide for us no matter what?

Perfectly true.

dan
Feb 4th 2009, 01:18 PM
We needn't worry , because we are not of this world , but part of an eternal kingdom. I am just encouraging you to watch your backs as the American electorate, and not to just accept what we are told as wisdom just because it is spoken so well.

...We have the power to support or weaken the influences on this world.

MT 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

So, let us seek out the offenses against God and work to weaken them.

DurbanDude
Feb 4th 2009, 01:38 PM
...We have the power to support or weaken the influences on this world.

MT 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

You guys are confusing me!:hmm:

What I believe is that as Christians , if we can have a good influence politically then why not? To be an influence to have a strong God-fearing government is a good thing. I also don't like the thought of being a pawn, where my opinions are swayed by the media, I like to keep my eyes open, which is also a good thing. At the moment the American media is saying to Christians that not only is Islam a threat, Islam is most likely the beast empire that will destroy Christians. The fear backlash is that Christians do nothing to prevent the war, because they are implicitly behind it, scared that the Islam beast will destroy them in their lifetime. By their silence they support the war. So American Christians are being encouraged to support the war against Islam and at the same time the military is being weakened by politicians. Net result, even large stable countries can be destabilised by neverending crises and difficult wars.

So I agree with mfowler12, we mustn't be drawn into supporting wars, yet I agree with Dan, we must support good influences in the world, in this way forces like Nazism can be held back when there are some good strong governments around. I'm from Africa, but would personally be more comfortable with an America with a strong military that refused to get involved with world affairs. In this way those powers that finance both sides of a war to weaken countries would soon find a political answer to the Islamic threat, they don't need America to stop Islam, they have enough influence there already, but they need Islam to weaken America.

But nothing wrong with a head in the sand approach to politics, and a concentration on spreading the gospel. This is the priority that draws the end closer.

dan
Feb 4th 2009, 02:54 PM
You guys are confusing me!:hmm:

The fear backlash is that Christians do nothing to prevent the war, because they are implicitly behind it, scared that the Islam beast will destroy them in their lifetime. By their silence they support the war. So American Christians are being encouraged to support the war against Islam and at the same time the military is being weakened by politicians. Net result, even large stable countries can be destabilised by neverending crises and difficult wars.

But nothing wrong with a head in the sand approach to politics, and a concentration on spreading the gospel. This is the priority that draws the end closer.

I don't mean to confuse you. It is my opinion that some wars are good. Especially, wars that destroy tyranny, oppression, and genocide.

GW freed 50 million people to be brought to Christ. They were not allowed to hear the Gospel until they were free. Good War!

Now, we retreat and send them back to Islam without any chance of keeping the opportunity to hear the Gospel? No.

rom826
Feb 4th 2009, 04:11 PM
At the moment the American media is saying to Christians that not only is Islam a threat, Islam is most likely the beast empire that will destroy Christians.


What American media channel are you watching? Most media channels here in America try to tell us that Islam is a victim of the evil Christians.

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 10:06 AM
What American media channel are you watching? Most media channels here in America try to tell us that Islam is a victim of the evil Christians.

I am talking about the Christian media, and Christian opinion. The bible tells us that Islamic countries will ATTACK the antichrist at the end, yet current thinking is that Islam WILL BE the antichrist.

rom826
Feb 6th 2009, 10:20 AM
I am talking about the Christian media, and Christian opinion. The bible tells us that Islamic countries will ATTACK the antichrist at the end, yet current thinking is that Islam WILL BE the antichrist.

Where does it say that Islamic countries will attack the anti-christ?

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 02:28 PM
Where does it say that Islamic countries will attack the anti-christ?

All over the bible.

You see, we are told repeatedly that the antichrist controls the whole earth, we also know that he comes to power in Jerusalem. Daniel 11 says he plants his tents in Israel. Daniel 11 says he is furious about reports to the east and the north of Israel.

There is nothing to say that the antichrist never owns Israel, and everything indicates that he rules from Israel and has control over the whole earth. So just by nature of this fact , that the antichrist already owns the whole earth, means that the final attack on Israel is a rebellion against the antichrist. What is more, the bible says that he is alarmed by the reports to the north and east (Daniel 11) . Now why would he be alarmed by his own armies? These are the rebel hordes of Russia, Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq. The countries of this attack on Israel at the end are sometimes described, and are currently Islamic countries.

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 02:44 PM
I don't mean to confuse you. It is my opinion that some wars are good. Especially, wars that destroy tyranny, oppression, and genocide.

GW freed 50 million people to be brought to Christ. They were not allowed to hear the Gospel until they were free. Good War!

Now, we retreat and send them back to Islam without any chance of keeping the opportunity to hear the Gospel? No.

Yes, but its easy to always assume you are on the good side, but the bible is clear that the beast wants to trample and divide the earth, and out of the ruins will the ten empires arise (Daniel 2 and Daniel 7). So it just may be , that both sides are being simultaneously stirred up with religious indoctrination that the other side is their great enemy, in this way arising powers and old powers are kept week and at war, while the earth's economy is being trampled on. The only satisfied are the few hidden elite, who finance both sides of the wars, achieving their plans while simultaneously making money from it.

So i am in support of good wars, but am sceptical that the war against Islam is a good war. Two superpowers are being incited against eachother, simple as that. I have no proof, but that is what it looks like to me.

iconoclast2012
Feb 6th 2009, 02:53 PM
Where does it say that Islamic countries will attack the anti-christ?
....hey rom, This verse works for me Dan.11:40 "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at >>>>"HIM"<<<< and the king of the north shall come against>>>>"HIM"<<<< like a whirlwind,with chariots, and with horsemen,and with many ships;and "HE" shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over............. What I see here is "THREE DISTINCT & SEPERATE" fighting combatants in this war campain.The king of the south attacking 1st.(mentioned 1st. ?)The king of the north attacking 2nd.(mentioned 2nd.?)....&...."HIM".....They push at>>>>"HIM"<<<< The king of the north is bringin' the heavy warfare material & seems to be the larger force as well they should be because they are in effect Ezekiels ...GOG_MAGOG line up of "MUSLIM" nations.....The king of the south & north are allies as they push & come against >>>>>"HIM<<<< WELL NOW, just who is this >>>>"HIM"<<<<<This little monkey in the middle....? LOL...I am not certain...but perhaps could this "HIM" be the same "HIM" we see in verse 30 where we read;"For the ships of chittim shall come against "HIM" and therefore he shall be"grieved" ,and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant;so shall he do;he shall even return and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. Enter combatant #1 The ships of chittim....why #1,because this verse preceeds v.40...So now just who are these rascal's....? Mentioned in Num.24:24 & we've all seen the description of the islands of the sea & beyond,but it also has been the ancient name for Cyprus & if I can be more specific,Cyprus is the Mediterranean warm water port for not only Her magesty's royal navy, but also the U.S. 6TH. fleet Not only do these ships bring some serious grief(obviously not an ally of "HIM") But these ships are actually what set "HIM" off V.30b And of course this is just a scenario that I subscribe to...What say ye....

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 03:01 PM
....hey rom, This verse works for me Dan.11:40 "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at >>>>"HIM"<<<< and the king of the north shall come against>>>>"HIM"<<<< like a whirlwind,with chariots, and with horsemen,and with many ships;and "HE" shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over............. What I see here is "THREE DISTINCT & SEPERATE" fighting combatants in this war campain.The king of the south attacking 1st.(mentioned 1st. ?)The king of the north attacking 2nd.(mentioned 2nd.?)....&...."HIM".....They push at>>>>"HIM"<<<< The king of the north is bringin' the heavy warfare material & seems to be the larger force as well they should be because they are in effect Ezekiels ...GOG_MAGOG line up of "MUSLIM" nations.....The king of the south & north are allies as they push & come against >>>>>"HIM<<<< WELL NOW, just who is this >>>>"HIM"<<<<<This little monkey in the middle....? LOL...I am not certain...but perhaps could this "HIM" be the same "HIM" we see in verse 30 where we read;"For the ships of chittim shall come against "HIM" and therefore he shall be"grieved" ,and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant;so shall he do;he shall even return and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. Enter combatant #1 The ships of chittim....why #1,because this verse preceeds v.40...So now just who are these rascal's....? Mentioned in Num.24:24 & we've all seen the description of the islands of the sea & beyond,but it also has been the ancient name for Cyprus & if I can be more specific,Cyprus is the Mediterranean warm water port for not only Her magesty's royal navy, but also the U.S. 6TH. fleet Not only do these ships bring some serious grief(obviously not an ally of "HIM") But these ships are actually what set "HIM" off V.30b And of course this is just a scenario that I subscribe to...What say ye....


I personally see Daniel 11:1-34 as referring to the Antiochus IV, every last detail is perfectly fulfilled by Antiochus.

After this, not one detail is fulfilled by Antiochus, from verse 35 until the end of Daniel 11. These verses apply to the antichrist. It is another one of those progressive fulfilment prophecies.

iconoclast2012
Feb 6th 2009, 03:29 PM
I personally see Daniel 11:1-34 as referring to the Antiochus IV, every last detail is perfectly fulfilled by Antiochus.

After this, not one detail is fulfilled by Antiochus, from verse 35 until the end of Daniel 11. These verses apply to the antichrist. It is another one of those progressive fulfilment prophecies.
...so In effect your sayin' v.30 has allready happened....? These ships have set sail before...? Well double d. I just beg to differ.... & How did I know u were goin' to lay this Antiochus dude on me again....?...LOL....

rom826
Feb 6th 2009, 04:57 PM
....hey rom, This verse works for me Dan.11:40 "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at >>>>"HIM"<<<< and the king of the north shall come against>>>>"HIM"<<<< like a whirlwind,with chariots, and with horsemen,and with many ships;and "HE" shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over............. What I see here is "THREE DISTINCT & SEPERATE" fighting combatants in this war campain.The king of the south attacking 1st.(mentioned 1st. ?)The king of the north attacking 2nd.(mentioned 2nd.?)....&...."HIM".....They push at>>>>"HIM"<<<< The king of the north is bringin' the heavy warfare material & seems to be the larger force as well they should be because they are in effect Ezekiels ...GOG_MAGOG line up of "MUSLIM" nations.....The king of the south & north are allies as they push & come against >>>>>"HIM<<<< WELL NOW, just who is this >>>>"HIM"<<<<<This little monkey in the middle....? LOL...I am not certain...but perhaps could this "HIM" be the same "HIM" we see in verse 30 where we read;"For the ships of chittim shall come against "HIM" and therefore he shall be"grieved" ,and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant;so shall he do;he shall even return and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. Enter combatant #1 The ships of chittim....why #1,because this verse preceeds v.40...So now just who are these rascal's....? Mentioned in Num.24:24 & we've all seen the description of the islands of the sea & beyond,but it also has been the ancient name for Cyprus & if I can be more specific,Cyprus is the Mediterranean warm water port for not only Her magesty's royal navy, but also the U.S. 6TH. fleet Not only do these ships bring some serious grief(obviously not an ally of "HIM") But these ships are actually what set "HIM" off V.30b And of course this is just a scenario that I subscribe to...What say ye....

So when Daniel says "king of the north" and "king of the south", which countries is he speaking about?

rom826
Feb 6th 2009, 05:05 PM
I personally see Daniel 11:1-34 as referring to the Antiochus IV, every last detail is perfectly fulfilled by Antiochus.

After this, not one detail is fulfilled by Antiochus, from verse 35 until the end of Daniel 11. These verses apply to the antichrist. It is another one of those progressive fulfilment prophecies.

Jesus spoke of a future abomination of desolation. The aod is mentions 4 times in Daniel in chapters 8,9,11 and 12 (the one in chapter 12 is referring back to one the the previous times it is mentioned). I know from another thread, you believe that the one in chapter 8 also referred to Antiochus. So are you saying the the only one Jesus was referring to was the one in chapter 9?

iconoclast2012
Feb 6th 2009, 05:33 PM
So when Daniel says "king of the north" and "king of the south", which countries is he speaking about?
....hey rom, In my opinion Dan.11:40 is in effect a close up snap shot of Ezekiel's GOG_MAGOG roll call of the nations found in chapter 38....

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 10:48 PM
...so In effect your sayin' v.30 has allready happened....? These ships have set sail before...? Well double d. I just beg to differ.... & How did I know u were goin' to lay this Antiochus dude on me again....?...LOL....

Because this dude was significant to Daniel and the Jews, and prophesied about, just as the Persian empire was prophesied about a lot, yet has long since passed. We need to correctly discern the scriptures. Believe me (u probably realised by now that I like accurate detail) , I have an even longer list of how each historical aspect of Antiochus' political life fits into 11:1-34, and yet stops there. If you like boring detail, I will post it, to show it is beyond co-incidence, Daniel 11 is mainly about Antiochus.

Actually I found this link, saves me looking for an old post of mine that I based on the NIV study bible about Antiochus and Daniel 11

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1191-daniels-prophecy-of-antiochus-epiphanes

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 10:52 PM
Jesus spoke of a future abomination of desolation. The aod is mentions 4 times in Daniel in chapters 8,9,11 and 12 (the one in chapter 12 is referring back to one the the previous times it is mentioned). I know from another thread, you believe that the one in chapter 8 also referred to Antiochus. So are you saying the the only one Jesus was referring to was the one in chapter 9?

9 and 12

8 and 11 are about the Antiochus abomination, 9 and 12 are about the future AOD.

iconoclast2012
Feb 7th 2009, 01:29 PM
Because this dude was significant to Daniel and the Jews, and prophesied about, just as the Persian empire was prophesied about a lot, yet has long since passed. We need to correctly discern the scriptures. Believe me (u probably realised by now that I like accurate detail) , I have an even longer list of how each historical aspect of Antiochus' political life fits into 11:1-34, and yet stops there. If you like boring detail, I will post it, to show it is beyond co-incidence, Daniel 11 is mainly about Antiochus.

Actually I found this link, saves me looking for an old post of mine that I based on the NIV study bible about Antiochus and Daniel 11

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1191-daniels-prophecy-of-antiochus-epiphanes
....hey Double D,...That's all past history dude...My post is focused on the end time players mentioned in DAN.11:40...care to discuss that scripture....? & don't dare tell me antiochus the pip is the "HIM" in verse 40...P.S. I like ur new avatar, do u really look like that....? lol ....!

DurbanDude
Feb 8th 2009, 05:56 AM
....hey Double D,...That's all past history dude...My post is focused on the end time players mentioned in DAN.11:40...care to discuss that scripture....? & don't dare tell me antiochus the pip is the "HIM" in verse 40...P.S. I like ur new avatar, do u really look like that....? lol ....!

hey icon, yes I look like that , except my top lip is even bigger lol. The sun's hot here, that's why I got this cool tan, its not jaundice.

I thought you were referring to verse 30, the ships of Chittim, which is when the ships of Rome threatened him, and he left Egypt without even a fight.

Yes v40 refers to the antichrist, he takes over many regions, including Israel. One of the regions that he takes over (north), is one of the regions that rebels against him in the end - reports from the north alarm him.

iconoclast2012
Feb 8th 2009, 06:27 PM
hey icon, yes I look like that , except my top lip is even bigger lol. The sun's hot here, that's why I got this cool tan, its not jaundice.

I thought you were referring to verse 30, the ships of Chittim, which is when the ships of Rome threatened him, and he left Egypt without even a fight.

Yes v40 refers to the antichrist, he takes over many regions, including Israel. One of the regions that he takes over (north), is one of the regions that rebels against him in the end - reports from the north alarm him.
...I gotta' be honest w/u Double D., That's a mighty weak response in light of my bold prognostication of DAN.11:40....considering 999 out of 1000 interpretations that I have read only seem to recognize two combatants (king of the south & north)....completely overlooking the personal pronoun>>>>"HIM" <<<< IN this scripture.....Are you pickin' up what the Iconoclast ("Idol-Smasher") is layin' down....? Surely u can bring something more to the table.....!.... I've uncovered a few more "juicy" scriptural nuggets here in DAN.11:40-45....But I gotta' get some feed back from the brethren here...before I can continue....

DurbanDude
Feb 9th 2009, 06:31 AM
....hey rom, This verse works for me Dan.11:40 "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at >>>>"HIM"<<<< and the king of the north shall come against>>>>"HIM"<<<< like a whirlwind,with chariots, and with horsemen,and with many ships;and "HE" shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over............. What I see here is "THREE DISTINCT & SEPERATE" fighting combatants in this war campain.The king of the south attacking 1st.(mentioned 1st. ?)The king of the north attacking 2nd.(mentioned 2nd.?)....&...."HIM".....They push at>>>>"HIM"<<<< The king of the north is bringin' the heavy warfare material & seems to be the larger force as well they should be because they are in effect Ezekiels ...GOG_MAGOG line up of "MUSLIM" nations.....The king of the south & north are allies as they push & come against >>>>>"HIM<<<< WELL NOW, just who is this >>>>"HIM"<<<<<This little monkey in the middle....? LOL...I am not certain...but perhaps could this "HIM" be the same "HIM" we see in verse 30 where we read;"For the ships of chittim shall come against "HIM" and therefore he shall be"grieved" ,and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant;so shall he do;he shall even return and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. Enter combatant #1 The ships of chittim....why #1,because this verse preceeds v.40...So now just who are these rascal's....? Mentioned in Num.24:24 & we've all seen the description of the islands of the sea & beyond,but it also has been the ancient name for Cyprus & if I can be more specific,Cyprus is the Mediterranean warm water port for not only Her magesty's royal navy, but also the U.S. 6TH. fleet Not only do these ships bring some serious grief(obviously not an ally of "HIM") But these ships are actually what set "HIM" off V.30b And of course this is just a scenario that I subscribe to...What say ye....

Ok Icon, this is the post you seem to be referring to. Well I think I covered all this by showing that the ships of Chittim is referring to the Roman ships.

This guy in the middle, from verse 35, he is the antichrist, I believe his power base is western, even if he appears to be from another country. But then he is based in Israel, which is situated in the middle of these countries. The countries that rebel are from the north and the east, his main base of power is actually western.

Before verse 35, the "him" is the king of the north. After verse 35 the "him" is neither north nor south , yet dominates both until the end when there is that rebellion. Just this is proof that from verse 35 the "he" is a new person who is not the king of the north.

iconoclast2012
Feb 9th 2009, 02:57 PM
Ok Icon, this is the post you seem to be referring to. Well I think I covered all this by showing that the ships of Chittim is referring to the Roman ships.

This guy in the middle, from verse 35, he is the antichrist, I believe his power base is western, even if he appears to be from another country. But then he is based in Israel, which is situated in the middle of these countries. The countries that rebel are from the north and the east, his main base of power is actually western.

Before verse 35, the "him" is the king of the north. After verse 35 the "him" is neither north nor south , yet dominates both until the end when there is that rebellion. Just this is proof that from verse 35 the "he" is a new person who is not the king of the north.
...well allrighty now Double D. we seem to be makin' some progress here...however #1...there is absolutely zero scriptural reference to the "SHIPS OF CHITTIM" being roman...which i am about to prove to u as I have just completed my "ships of chittim" bible study....#2 U indicate the "GUY" in the middle from W.35....when there is no mention of ..."HIM" in verse 35....but I catch ur drift....IN fact I go back to V.21....Where we read; "And in his estate shall stand up a "VILE" person,to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries...."This "VILE" person begins the description of "HIM" we see from verse 21...on through the end of DAN.11...& I reference DAN.8:25...which reads...And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;and "HE" shall magnify "HIM"self in his heart, and by "PEACE" shall destroy many.....#3...U indicate that "HIS" power base is "western"....Is that western babylon,west israel or west virginia.....? How is one to know....? What say ye....

DurbanDude
Feb 10th 2009, 07:27 AM
...well allrighty now Double D. we seem to be makin' some progress here...however #1...there is absolutely zero scriptural reference to the "SHIPS OF CHITTIM" being roman...which i am about to prove to u as I have just completed my "ships of chittim" bible study....#2 U indicate the "GUY" in the middle from W.35....when there is no mention of ..."HIM" in verse 35....but I catch ur drift....IN fact I go back to V.21....Where we read; "And in his estate shall stand up a "VILE" person,to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries...."This "VILE" person begins the description of "HIM" we see from verse 21...on through the end of DAN.11...& I reference DAN.8:25...which reads...And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand;and "HE" shall magnify "HIM"self in his heart, and by "PEACE" shall destroy many.....#3...U indicate that "HIS" power base is "western"....Is that western babylon,west israel or west virginia.....? How is one to know....? What say ye....

From the strongs hebrew bible dictionary:
3794
(http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONHEB379.htm#S3794)Kittiy
kit-tee'
or Kittiyiy {kit-tee-ee'}; patrial from an unused name denoting Cyprus (only in the plural); a Kittite or Cypriote; hence, an islander in general, i.e. the Greeks or Romans on the shores opposite Palestine:--Chittim, Kittim.


Palestine is in the Eastern Meditteranean, Kittim seems to refer generally to the Western Coastlands from an Israeli perspective. This is not precise, but can't be contradicted either, and when read in context refers to the Roman fleet. It is just that all the kings leading up to Antiochus have an exact match to Daniel 11, every marriage, every alliance, every war between the Middle east and Egypt matches , to say that there will be a future match as well just does not appeal to my common sense.

Then in verse 35, there is a reference to "the time of the end", it is no co-incidence that from this point on the "he" is no longer the king of the north, and nothing here matches history, because history of the region is well documented. I have challenged preterists in the past to show any matching period in history that fits in with the end of chapter 11, just as I challenge you to disprove that every marriage, every war up to verse 35, is precisely fulfilled by the kings of the time, culminating in Antiochus.

Chapter 11 is a perfect example of the progressive fulfilment of prophecy, a principle that has to be applied to Daniel 8, and the gospel accounts of the end-times concerning 70 AD, to understand prophecy well.

I wish I had an exact biblical account of the western nations that he directly controls. It is my assumption that he is western because the south , north , and east come against him. This only really leaves one direction left, west. Other than this assumption, we have 4 indications elsewhere in the bible that the final beast is associated with Rome, which is western from an Israel perspective. Obviously various parties would find each verse debatable, but I believe the whole picture is clear enough for a logical truth-seeker despite all the objections and the current Islam focus.

Many bible scholars of the ages have made wrong conclusions about the end-times based on current world events, but I am going to add my two cents worth here.

There has been an increasingly strong alliance between the Jewish bankers of Europe and the Roman Catholic church for the last couple of hundred years. The Jewish bankers claim to be from the tribe of David, and also to be descended from the last Roman emperor. Additionally they are strongly tied in financially with the RCC. They have a strong influence in American, Israeli and European politics, and strong links with the Jesuit branch of the RCC. Do you see a picture emerging, they are busy bringing Islam under their wing. They are strongly linked with the Bilderberg meetings which secretly meet every year to discuss world policy. Over the years FOUR different members of this ONE family have been invited to these meetings. They are close friends with top officials of the World Economic Forum, and two of their own were named as "young global leaders", one in 2005, and one in 2007 according to the WEF own website:
http://www.weforum.org/en/Communities/Young%20Global%20Leaders/index.htm

So I say it will be a Western alliance, Europe, Israel, USA, South America based on current politics, and I believe this great conspiracy is being run by a tight knit group of European Jews, and RCC officials.

dan
Feb 11th 2009, 09:10 AM
Yes, but its easy to always assume you are on the good side, but the bible is clear that the beast wants to trample and divide the earth, and out of the ruins will the ten empires arise (Daniel 2 and Daniel 7). So it just may be , that both sides are being simultaneously stirred up with religious indoctrination that the other side is their great enemy, in this way arising powers and old powers are kept week and at war, while the earth's economy is being trampled on. The only satisfied are the few hidden elite, who finance both sides of the wars, achieving their plans while simultaneously making money from it.

So i am in support of good wars, but am sceptical that the war against Islam is a good war. Two superpowers are being incited against eachother, simple as that. I have no proof, but that is what it looks like to me.

...It doesn't occur to you that any business that supplies the Communists in a war could find themselves destroyed by their own hand?

If you don't know in your heart that anyone that suicide bombs, or, encourages his family to do so is wrong, then, I don't know what to tell you.:lol:

Incited against each other? The Russians have fed Islam since the early '60's. Islam is being incited by them against the US.

Dunamite
Feb 11th 2009, 07:25 PM
World government is here already. People just don't recognise it because they have been told to look for something else. People are taught to fear forces that threaten to take us down from the outside. So we spend out time and energy looking for phantom problems, instead of looking for the slight of hand going on under our noses.

Capitalism is worldwide and does not respect borders. They control the money supply and control all major governments, including the U.S.A. and they have done so for a long time. The Trilateral Commission is a who's Who of world leaders and former leaders and the heads of mega corportations and banks.

Past presidents lamented that the U.S. was controlled by bankers and an invisible government that pulls the strings and for at least three decades presidents and vice-presidents have be complicit in this invisible government.

Obama is a trilateralist, so is Susan Rice and Tim Geithner and Hillary is married to one. Paul Volcker who is supposed to get us out of the financial crisis is one. So is the head of the World Bank.

Dick Cheney was a member of the Trilateral Commission as were former presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. Alan Greenspan was one. The U.S. is well represented, but don't think for a moment that the U.S. is their concern. Their concern is for pulling the strings of the world economy and governments.

We are taught to believe that there is an external enemy and threat. It was once communism and now it is terrorism. When all the time the fox is in the henhouse. The U.S. government has been under the direct control of capitalism since before the Federal Reserve Act in 1913. This was their coup de grace. Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson fought them and lost.

It says that in the last days that we won't be able to buy or sell. That means the economic processes will be under their control. How can that be? They already pull all of the strings. There is nothing that they don't control, including the making of presidents and prime ministers. They control the media so we think what they want us to think when we choose to think at all which is seldom because we are so busy trying to chase prosperity which is just elusive enough to push us without us tiring of the game. Those turned off of the political process are tuned in to TV and tuned off reality.

Like it or not, everything is under the control and it is global. The U.S. is not an exception. It is very much part of the process. It isn't a matter of when there is a world government, but when people wise up to the fact that they have been had.

Zbigniew Brzezinski was the founder of the Trilateral Commission and he is Barak Obama's mentor. He wrote a book called The Choice: Global Domination or Global Leadership. This kind of sums it up. Globalization is going to happen and has in fact happened. You can be dominated or dominate. Almost every foreign policy decision is based on the objectives of global capitalism. Almost every war is about controlling resources and opening markets.

The enemy has always been skilled. He uses and perverts everything to his own ends. If you hold it dear, then he wants it. Countries are no exception. People can be bought and sold, it is just a question of giving them what they want which just happens to be what he has lots of, power and money. If you buy the right people, then the country is easy to control.

If you are still chasing after commies or terrorists you are just playing the part that they want you to play. These things exist to get you to take your eye off what is really happening. It is all smoke and mirrors.

BTW, America's last stand was in 1913. And America lost its treasure and control to the Federal Reserve which is not a government agency, but it is in private hands. Yes, your money supply is not in Fort Knox but it is held by bankers and people unknown to you. Fort Knox is empty and we could prove it if the Federal reserve would let anyone in it.

Joyfulee
Feb 11th 2009, 07:46 PM
World government is here already. People just don't recognise it because they have been told to look for something else. People are taught to fear forces that threaten to take us down from the outside. So we spend out time and energy looking for phantom problems, instead of looking for the slight of hand going on under our noses.

Capitalism is worldwide and does not respect borders. They control the money supply and control all major governments, including the U.S.A. and they have done so for a long time. The Trilateral Commission is a who's Who of world leaders and former leaders and the heads of mega corportations and banks.

Past presidents lamented that the U.S. was controlled by bankers and an invisible government that pulls the strings and for at least three decades presidents and vice-presidents have be complicit in this invisible government.

Obama is a trilateralist, so is Susan Rice and Tim Geithner and Hillary is married to one. Paul Volcker who is supposed to get us out of the financial crisis is one. So is the head of the World Bank.

Dick Cheney was a member of the Trilateral Commission as were former presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. Alan Greenspan was one. The U.S. is well represented, but don't think for a moment that the U.S. is their concern. Their concern is for pulling the strings of the world economy and governments.

We are taught to believe that there is an external enemy and threat. It was once communism and now it is terrorism. When all the time the fox is in the henhouse. The U.S. government has been under the direct control of capitalism since before the Federal Reserve Act in 1913. This was their coup de grace. Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson fought them and lost.

It says that in the last days that we won't be able to buy or sell. That means the economic processes will be under their control. How can that be? They already pull all of the strings. There is nothing that they don't control, including the making of presidents and prime ministers. They control the media so we think what they want us to think when we choose to think at all which is seldom because we are so busy trying to chase prosperity which is just elusive enough to push us without us tiring of the game. Those turned off of the political process are tuned in to TV and tuned off reality.

Like it or not, everything is under the control and it is global. The U.S. is not an exception. It is very much part of the process. It isn't a matter of when there is a world government, but when people wise up to the fact that they have been had.

Zbigniew Brzezinski was the founder of the Trilateral Commission and he is Barak Obama's mentor. He wrote a book called The Choice: Global Domination or Global Leadership. This kind of sums it up. Globalization is going to happen and has in fact happened. You can be dominated or dominate. Almost every foreign policy decision is based on the objectives of global capitalism. Almost every war is about controlling resources and opening markets.

The enemy has always been skilled. He uses and perverts everything to his own ends. If you hold it dear, then he wants it. Countries are no exception. People can be bought and sold, it is just a question of giving them what they want which just happens to be what he has lots of, power and money. If you buy the right people, then the country is easy to control.

If you are still chasing after commies or terrorists you are just playing the part that they want you to play. These things exist to get you to take your eye off what is really happening. It is all smoke and mirrors.

BTW, America's last stand was in 1913. And America lost its treasure and control to the Federal Reserve which is not a government agency, but it is in private hands. Yes, your money supply is not in Fort Knox but it is held by bankers and people unknown to you. Fort Knox is empty and we could prove it if the Federal reserve would let anyone in it.

Totally in agreement with you!

DurbanDude
Feb 11th 2009, 07:50 PM
World government is here already. People just don't recognise it because they have been told to look for something else. People are taught to fear forces that threaten to take us down from the outside. So we spend out time and energy looking for phantom problems, instead of looking for the slight of hand going on under our noses.

Capitalism is worldwide and does not respect borders. They control the money supply and control all major governments, including the U.S.A. and they have done so for a long time. The Trilateral Commission is a who's Who of world leaders and former leaders and the heads of mega corportations and banks.

Past presidents lamented that the U.S. was controlled by bankers and an invisible government that pulls the strings and for at least three decades presidents and vice-presidents have be complicit in this invisible government.

Obama is a trilateralist, so is Susan Rice and Tim Geithner and Hillary is married to one. Paul Volcker who is supposed to get us out of the financial crisis is one. So is the head of the World Bank.

Dick Cheney was a member of the Trilateral Commission as were former presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. Alan Greenspan was one. The U.S. is well represented, but don't think for a moment that the U.S. is their concern. Their concern is for pulling the strings of the world economy and governments.

We are taught to believe that there is an external enemy and threat. It was once communism and now it is terrorism. When all the time the fox is in the henhouse. The U.S. government has been under the direct control of capitalism since before the Federal Reserve Act in 1913. This was their coup de grace. Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson fought them and lost.

It says that in the last days that we won't be able to buy or sell. That means the economic processes will be under their control. How can that be? They already pull all of the strings. There is nothing that they don't control, including the making of presidents and prime ministers. They control the media so we think what they want us to think when we choose to think at all which is seldom because we are so busy trying to chase prosperity which is just elusive enough to push us without us tiring of the game. Those turned off of the political process are tuned in to TV and tuned off reality.

Like it or not, everything is under the control and it is global. The U.S. is not an exception. It is very much part of the process. It isn't a matter of when there is a world government, but when people wise up to the fact that they have been had.

Zbigniew Brzezinski was the founder of the Trilateral Commission and he is Barak Obama's mentor. He wrote a book called The Choice: Global Domination or Global Leadership. This kind of sums it up. Globalization is going to happen and has in fact happened. You can be dominated or dominate. Almost every foreign policy decision is based on the objectives of global capitalism. Almost every war is about controlling resources and opening markets.

The enemy has always been skilled. He uses and perverts everything to his own ends. If you hold it dear, then he wants it. Countries are no exception. People can be bought and sold, it is just a question of giving them what they want which just happens to be what he has lots of, power and money. If you buy the right people, then the country is easy to control.

If you are still chasing after commies or terrorists you are just playing the part that they want you to play. These things exist to get you to take your eye off what is really happening. It is all smoke and mirrors.

BTW, America's last stand was in 1913. And America lost its treasure and control to the Federal Reserve which is not a government agency, but it is in private hands. Yes, your money supply is not in Fort Knox but it is held by bankers and people unknown to you. Fort Knox is empty and we could prove it if the Federal reserve would let anyone in it.

Aaah, someone else catches on!:pp

I personally think its European Jews that control capitalism. The Rothschild family is many times richer than the world's wealthiest man. Wealth counted in 10's of trillions. They also have immense gold reserves. Far wealthier than the American govt, America is in debt , yet they lend to governments.

DurbanDude
Feb 11th 2009, 07:56 PM
...It doesn't occur to you that any business that supplies the Communists in a war could find themselves destroyed by their own hand?

If you don't know in your heart that anyone that suicide bombs, or, encourages his family to do so is wrong, then, I don't know what to tell you.:lol:

Incited against each other? The Russians have fed Islam since the early '60's. Islam is being incited by them against the US.

Not if they set up the communists, assisted in their writings and control their leaders. Western organisations are tied in with Moslem leaders more than you could ever know. Sure, the Moslem/Russian alliance is and will be strong, I believe the bible predicts they will at first be the most vocal supporter of the western antichrist alliance, yet will turn on the antichrist at the end at the final battle.

Dunamite
Feb 11th 2009, 08:57 PM
Aaah, someone else catches on!:pp

I personally think its European Jews that control capitalism. The Rothschild family is many times richer than the world's wealthiest man. Wealth counted in 10's of trillions. They also have immense gold reserves. Far wealthier than the American govt, America is in debt , yet they lend to governments.
Don't encourage me ;)!

I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets. The man who controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire, and I control the British money supply. --Nathan Mayer Rothschild

The Trilateral Commission has its share of Jews, but there are many non-Jews. It has more to do with money and power and allegiance to it than for race, although I could make a strong case that Jews play an inordinate role in controlling American media and therefore what Americans think and in the making of the news. For example, the men behind the so-called war on terrorism in post 9/11 U.S. were mostly Jews. They had an axe to grind and a point to make and the non-Jews were amoral enough to give into them. American middle-east policy is certainly directed by Jews.

That should set off the fireworks! Not my intention. :spin: But Israel has boasted that it can kill any CNN story unfavourable to Israel with simply one phone call. Obviously they have they have Fox's phone number and I suspect the rest as well. You only have to live outside of the United States and have access to U.S. media to see obvious bias. Americans are oblivious to it all because they don't get to see and hear what the rest of the world does.

It is said that total weekly coverage for the war on Iraq is something like 10 minutes total all on all major U.S. networks combined. Compare this with previous wars such as Vietnam, Korea or WWII and something is going on and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to connect the dots. What you get is filtered before you get it so that you can live in Pleasantville and so that they can do what they want without objection.

The phosphorous bombs that rained down on Gaza were made in the U.S. and were used in contravention of treaties that the U.S. has signed. Americans didn't drop them, but Israel wouldn't have been able to, if they weren't given them. You get the idea. Things are happening in this big bad world and you aren't being given all of the information.

The bottom line is that America is more hated now as a result of the attack on Gaza without them having had a direct role. Crazy, huh? That's the way of the world and unless you are paying attention you will get dragged down with it. Hate makes this world go around and more wars and violence only fuels that hatred. Expect to spend more time, not less, fighting terrorism as a result.

If you think that sending more troops to Afghanistan will help, guess again. More violence = more hatred = more violence.

The only thing that can break the vicious circle is love, peace and understanding. If we can't deliver it, then we know who can, Jesus when he returns. This does not mean that we should care less about peace and broken lives until he returns.

Right now we are aiding and abetting the enemy either through our silence to wrongs committed on all sides or through complicity in these crimes by sanctioning what others are doing that we know is wrong and contrary to what the Bible teaches. I am not talking just about abortion, but about what nations do that hurt others.

It is time to wake up and not let crimes be committed in our name. When we start to do this, expect to be turned on. Christians will face persecution at home and probably in our life time. Hopefully it will be for speaking the truth.

What do you do when nobody is right and everybody is wrong? Clue: Don't do nothing.

Reynolds357
Feb 11th 2009, 09:12 PM
Where does it say that Islamic countries will attack the anti-christ?

The Bible doesn't say that.

DurbanDude
Feb 11th 2009, 09:18 PM
Don't encourage me ;)!

I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets. The man who controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire, and I control the British money supply. --Nathan Mayer Rothschild

The Trilateral Commission has its share of Jews, but there are many non-Jews. It has more to do with money and power and allegiance to it than for race, although I could make a strong case that Jews play an inordinate role in controlling American media and therefore what Americans think and in the making of the news. For example, the men behind the so-called war on terrorism in post 9/11 U.S. were mostly Jews. They had an axe to grind and a point to make and the non-Jews were amoral enough to give into them. American middle-east policy is certainly directed by Jews.

That should set off the fireworks! Not my intention. :spin: But Israel has boasted that it can kill any CNN story unfavourable to Israel with simply one phone call. Obviously they have they have Fox's phone number and I suspect the rest as well. You only have to live outside of the United States and have access to U.S. media to see obvious bias. Americans are oblivious to it all because they don't get to see and hear what the rest of the world does.

It is said that total weekly coverage for the war on Iraq is something like 10 minutes total all on all major U.S. networks combined. Compare this with previous wars such as Vietnam, Korea or WWII and something is going on and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to connect the dots. What you get is filtered before you get it so that you can live in Pleasantville and so that they can do what they want without objection.

The phosphorous bombs that rained down on Gaza were made in the U.S. and were used in contravention of treaties that the U.S. has signed. Americans didn't drop them, but Israel wouldn't have been able to, if they weren't given them. You get the idea. Things are happening in this big bad world and you aren't being given all of the information.

The bottom line is that America is more hated now as a result of the attack on Gaza without them having had a direct role. Crazy, huh? That's the way of the world and unless you are paying attention you will get dragged down with it. Hate makes this world go around and more wars and violence only fuels that hatred. Expect to spend more time, not less, fighting terrorism as a result.

If you think that sending more troops to Afghanistan will help, guess again. More violence = more hatred = more violence.

The only thing that can break the vicious circle is love, peace and understanding. If we can't deliver it, then we know who can, Jesus when he returns. This does not mean that we should care less about peace and broken lives until he returns.

Right now we are aiding and abetting the enemy either through our silence to wrongs committed on all sides or through complicity in these crimes by sanctioning what others are doing that we know is wrong and contrary to what the Bible teaches. I am not talking just about abortion, but about what nations do that hurt others.

It is time to wake up and not let crimes be committed in our name. When we start to do this, expect to be turned on. Christians will face persecution at home and probably in our life time. Hopefully it will be for speaking the truth.

What do you do when nobody is right and everybody is wrong? Clue: Don't do nothing.

True, there are very few wars where its a true right vs wrong situation, so its better not to support war. Its better to keep out of it, and focus on the gospel, it's just that I don't like to be naive about these things and sometimes people are lemmings, just following the crowd because that's what the media says the situation is. I question everything, assuming the media is controlled.

What really irks me, is that I've come to realise that the "whore of babylon" and the beast are succesfully breaking the earth into bits, and keeping the masses downtrodden, ill fed and diseased and at war deliberately, and very few people see this as deliberate world policy. Yet the bible predicts it. You would think that a "one world govt" would be trying to steer everything to prosperity and technology, but they have decided that a disrupted and desperate earth is easier to control than succesful and happy masses, and so the evil continues unabated.

2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise

7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The world is currently being crushed.

DurbanDude
Feb 11th 2009, 09:24 PM
The Bible doesn't say that.

Yes it does. We all know that the antichrist will control the whole world, including Israel , and will rule the whole world for 3.5 years.

Why then does Turkey, Russia, Syria, Iran and Iraq attack Israel at the end? It is a rebellion against the antichrist, the antichrist doesn't need to attack Israel, the bible says Israel and the ENTIRE world is already under his control for the last 3.5 years.

Reynolds357
Feb 11th 2009, 09:24 PM
True, there are very few wars where its a true right vs wrong situation, so its better not to support war. Its better to keep out of it, and focus on the gospel, ......



Yeah, guess we should have stayed out of WWII and let Hitler slaughter the Jews.:confused There are justified wars. There are times that staying out of war is wrong.

Joe King
Feb 11th 2009, 09:28 PM
America deserves judgment and God's wrath just as, if not more than other nations.

Reynolds357
Feb 11th 2009, 09:30 PM
Yes it does. We all know that the antichrist will control the whole world, including Israel , and will rule the whole world for 3.5 years.

Why then does Turkey, Russia, Syria, Iran and Iraq attack Israel at the end? It is a rebellion against the antichrist, the antichrist doesn't need to attack Israel, the bible says Israel and the ENTIRE world is already under his control for the last 3.5 years.

Then where Exactly does it say that? There are several possible scenarios I can lay out for the alliances of the end times, and they all fit scripture equally well. The only thing we can be 100% certain of as far as alliances is that Israel has only one ally and that is God. We can also be reasonably sure that the Persians and Arabs ally themselves with Russia. You can not be sure from scripture if anti-Christ fights with or against this alliance. The only thing we can say for certain is that both anti-christ and the Russian federation both seek to destroy Israel during the tribulation.

DurbanDude
Feb 11th 2009, 09:33 PM
Yeah, guess we should have stayed out of WWII and let Hitler slaughter the Jews.:confused There are justified wars. There are times that staying out of war is wrong.

Hey Reynolds, I agree with you.

I didn't say no wars are good, I said very few. Its just that as we draw closer to the end, the more control a few have over the many, and the more likely that those in control are stirring both sides against eachother. Both sides will feel the other is the enemy, because they are given very good reasons to think that way. Both sides feel theirs is the righteous war, fighting evil. Reconciliation is biblical and is contrary to war-mongering.

Reynolds357
Feb 11th 2009, 09:33 PM
America deserves judgment and God's wrath just as, if not more than other nations.

We all DESERVE judgment and wrath. Thank God for His GRACE.

Reynolds357
Feb 11th 2009, 09:45 PM
Hey Reynolds, I agree with you.

I didn't say no wars are good, I said very few. Its just that as we draw closer to the end, the more control a few have over the many, and the more likely that those in control are stirring both sides against eachother. Both sides will feel the other is the enemy, because they are given very good reasons to think that way. Both sides feel theirs is the righteous war, fighting evil. Reconciliation is biblical and is contrary to war-mongering.

There is always a righteous side. The current Iranian conflict is a prime example.

DurbanDude
Feb 11th 2009, 09:59 PM
Then where Exactly does it say that? There are several possible scenarios I can lay out for the alliances of the end times, and they all fit scripture equally well. The only thing we can be 100% certain of as far as alliances is that Israel has only one ally and that is God. We can also be reasonably sure that the Persians and Arabs ally themselves with Russia. You can not be sure from scripture if anti-Christ fights with or against this alliance. The only thing we can say for certain is that both anti-christ and the Russian federation both seek to destroy Israel during the tribulation.

I don't see it that way, the way I see it is as per Joel. Israel is being attacked, and while Israel is being attacked, God gives them a chance to repent. Its their last chance because they are about to be destroyed by the northern/eastern alliance. They repent, and only then does God fight for them. I personally believe that until that moment, most of the Jews believe the antichrist is the Messiah, because the antichrist has been ruling earth, including Israel. Don't forget, the antichrist is crowned in Israel, and plants his tents in Israel (Daniel 11). Rev 17 says that the beast is a country that ceased to exist, and then re-appears to amaze the non-believers of earth. this sounds like Israel to me. Daniel 7 says that the final horn (power point/country) will rise to control 3 regions of the ten regions of earth. Which little country controls other regions - Israel. It has a complete stranglehold over both Europe and America, controlling most politicians of both these powerful regions.

It is the Rome/Israel alliance (the woman rides the beast) that the bible predicts will rule the world, and the bible says that Jews will come to repentance at the second coming.

The Moslem countries will initially be the most vocal supporter of the antichrist (the beast has the mouth of a lion - vocal support of babylon/Iraq), the beast has the feet of a bear/Persia/Iran, feet represent going forth (of a doctrine or belief).

Islam is also represented by the false prophet, if Rome can be compared to a false religion/false wife/ whore city of Rev 17, then surely Islam can be compared to a false prophet, being the religion of the false prophet, Mohamed. Islam supports the antichrist as the false prophet, prophesying that the antichrist is the Mahdi, as their false prophet says he will be.

But then Islamic countries (attack from the north and the east) attack Israel while the antichrist is alive, and just before Jesus comes (daniel 11). The antichrist is alarmed by this attack according to Daniel 11, why would he be alarmed by an attack to the north and the east, if he is doing the attacking from the north and the east as some try to interpret the bible. All the armies are evil at Armageddon, except the repentant residents of Jerusalem, when Jesus appears in the clouds. All the armies are destroyed there, only the repentant residents of Jerusalem survive and succesfully retaliate.

Reynolds357
Feb 12th 2009, 04:41 PM
I don't see it that way, the way I see it is as per Joel. Israel is being attacked, and while Israel is being attacked, God gives them a chance to repent. Its their last chance because they are about to be destroyed by the northern/eastern alliance. They repent, and only then does God fight for them. I personally believe that until that moment, most of the Jews believe the antichrist is the Messiah, because the antichrist has been ruling earth, including Israel. Don't forget, the antichrist is crowned in Israel, and plants his tents in Israel (Daniel 11). Rev 17 says that the beast is a country that ceased to exist, and then re-appears to amaze the non-believers of earth. this sounds like Israel to me. Daniel 7 says that the final horn (power point/country) will rise to control 3 regions of the ten regions of earth. Which little country controls other regions - Israel. It has a complete stranglehold over both Europe and America, controlling most politicians of both these powerful regions.

It is the Rome/Israel alliance (the woman rides the beast) that the bible predicts will rule the world, and the bible says that Jews will come to repentance at the second coming.

The Moslem countries will initially be the most vocal supporter of the antichrist (the beast has the mouth of a lion - vocal support of babylon/Iraq), the beast has the feet of a bear/Persia/Iran, feet represent going forth (of a doctrine or belief).

Islam is also represented by the false prophet, if Rome can be compared to a false religion/false wife/ whore city of Rev 17, then surely Islam can be compared to a false prophet, being the religion of the false prophet, Mohamed. Islam supports the antichrist as the false prophet, prophesying that the antichrist is the Mahdi, as their false prophet says he will be.

But then Islamic countries (attack from the north and the east) attack Israel while the antichrist is alive, and just before Jesus comes (daniel 11). The antichrist is alarmed by this attack according to Daniel 11, why would he be alarmed by an attack to the north and the east, if he is doing the attacking from the north and the east as some try to interpret the bible. All the armies are evil at Armageddon, except the repentant residents of Jerusalem, when Jesus appears in the clouds. All the armies are destroyed there, only the repentant residents of Jerusalem survive and succesfully retaliate.

There is a lot of speculation there. There are other distinct possibilities for the interpretation of the prophecies. Kings of the North and East in Daniel 11 are most likely Former Soviet Union, China, Japan, and possibly India. I really do not see them as being an Arab alliance.

Joe King
Feb 12th 2009, 05:02 PM
There is always a righteous side. The current Iranian conflict is a prime example.

No one is righteous but God.

iconoclast2012
Feb 12th 2009, 09:08 PM
From the strongs hebrew bible dictionary:
3794
(http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONHEB379.htm#S3794)Kittiy
kit-tee'
or Kittiyiy {kit-tee-ee'}; patrial from an unused name denoting Cyprus (only in the plural); a Kittite or Cypriote; hence, an islander in general, i.e. the Greeks or Romans on the shores opposite Palestine:--Chittim, Kittim.


Palestine is in the Eastern Meditteranean, Kittim seems to refer generally to the Western Coastlands from an Israeli perspective. This is not precise, but can't be contradicted either, and when read in context refers to the Roman fleet. It is just that all the kings leading up to Antiochus have an exact match to Daniel 11, every marriage, every alliance, every war between the Middle east and Egypt matches , to say that there will be a future match as well just does not appeal to my common sense.

Then in verse 35, there is a reference to "the time of the end", it is no co-incidence that from this point on the "he" is no longer the king of the north, and nothing here matches history, because history of the region is well documented. I have challenged preterists in the past to show any matching period in history that fits in with the end of chapter 11, just as I challenge you to disprove that every marriage, every war up to verse 35, is precisely fulfilled by the kings of the time, culminating in Antiochus.

Chapter 11 is a perfect example of the progressive fulfilment of prophecy, a principle that has to be applied to Daniel 8, and the gospel accounts of the end-times concerning 70 AD, to understand prophecy well.

I wish I had an exact biblical account of the western nations that he directly controls. It is my assumption that he is western because the south , north , and east come against him. This only really leaves one direction left, west. Other than this assumption, we have 4 indications elsewhere in the bible that the final beast is associated with Rome, which is western from an Israel perspective. Obviously various parties would find each verse debatable, but I believe the whole picture is clear enough for a logical truth-seeker despite all the objections and the current Islam focus.

Many bible scholars of the ages have made wrong conclusions about the end-times based on current world events, but I am going to add my two cents worth here.

There has been an increasingly strong alliance between the Jewish bankers of Europe and the Roman Catholic church for the last couple of hundred years. The Jewish bankers claim to be from the tribe of David, and also to be descended from the last Roman emperor. Additionally they are strongly tied in financially with the RCC. They have a strong influence in American, Israeli and European politics, and strong links with the Jesuit branch of the RCC. Do you see a picture emerging, they are busy bringing Islam under their wing. They are strongly linked with the Bilderberg meetings which secretly meet every year to discuss world policy. Over the years FOUR different members of this ONE family have been invited to these meetings. They are close friends with top officials of the World Economic Forum, and two of their own were named as "young global leaders", one in 2005, and one in 2007 according to the WEF own website:
http://www.weforum.org/en/Communities/Young%20Global%20Leaders/index.htm

So I say it will be a Western alliance, Europe, Israel, USA, South America based on current politics, and I believe this great conspiracy is being run by a tight knit group of European Jews, and RCC officials.
...Well said double D., Although I somehow felt the need to drag that out of u, I understand where ur comin' from scripturally...furthermore even though the title of this thread "AMERICA_THE LAST STAND, is a bit ambiguous, I'm sure everyone here has at one time or another asked this question..."Where is America in bible prophecy"...? We've all read the scriptures & I've read or heard every single scenario in reference to America's place in prophecy, (none of which I subscribe to)... including the following...... #1) America is neutralized or incapacitated, whether by an act of G_D, or a manmade natural disaster & has no role in the end-times....mmmm....plausable, but unlikely...(IMHO) #2)"We really don't see America mentioned in scripture"...so therefore, although It may be around at the end, It's nothing more than a minor player....mmmm.... I see a large portion of current "churchianity" falling into this category....once again plausable, but unlikely.....(IMHO) #3) AMERICA IS END_TIMES BABYLON, baby...! The major player...Yes sir. That great nation that sit's upon many waters...& all u kings of the earth r fornicatin' with it....U know who u r...!!! ...mmmm....Although I will admit, there is some striking scriptural credibility to this scenario....I believe the jury is still out...(IMHO) #4) America is "ISRAEL"....."THE NEW JERUSALEM" land's directly on this country.......mmmm.....I just don't know....(IMHO) Regardless of what scenario u subscribe to, or perhaps none of these at all, I wish both you & your walk with the LORD complete & total fullfillment in the coming day's & peace brethren....

Dunamite
Feb 14th 2009, 12:11 AM
True, there are very few wars where its a true right vs wrong situation, so its better not to support war. Its better to keep out of it, and focus on the gospel, it's just that I don't like to be naive about these things and sometimes people are lemmings, just following the crowd because that's what the media says the situation is. I question everything, assuming the media is controlled.

What really irks me, is that I've come to realise that the "whore of babylon" and the beast are succesfully breaking the earth into bits, and keeping the masses downtrodden, ill fed and diseased and at war deliberately, and very few people see this as deliberate world policy. Yet the bible predicts it. You would think that a "one world govt" would be trying to steer everything to prosperity and technology, but they have decided that a disrupted and desperate earth is easier to control than succesful and happy masses, and so the evil continues unabated.

2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise

7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The world is currently being crushed.
This is sad but most people are too busy trying to make ends meet and consume. The consumer mentality of the western world really took hold with the advent of television.

We were inviting companies into our living rooms to proselytise us. The payoff was free entertainment. Or is it free? We pay them to progandise us, but don't see it as this. Again it is all part of the smoke and mirrors.

They control us and our thoughts and we don't realise it. Even now. I just read an interview with a British pop star, Lily Allen. What caught my eye was something that she said. She feels the compulsive need to read fashion mags and shop, but afterwards feels bad for doing it. Her music apparently is about being conflicted about the things she does. This sums up her generation. They know that what they are doing is bad for their bodies, bad for their body image, and bad for the environment, but hey do it any way. It gives them an immediate high, that is later followed by guilt and angst.

That is the way with most people. They do things without realising what they are doing. So thorough are they programmed that it is akin to being on drugs. We acquire things that leave us empty, but wanting more.

The media is controlled and so are most people. They have been neutralised and pacified. Take America. The founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they saw the erosion of rights.

People get mad over the government wanting to take their guns away, but don't care if they want to snoop on your every move and give the authorities unprecedented rights to treat them like a criminal, just on somebody's say so or suspicions.

The whole idea behind the gun law was to have militias to prevent the need for a standing army which they viewed with great suspicion and disdain. Now the U.S. not only has a standing army but has bases all over the world and spends more on the military than all other countries combined. The founders fought and died to eradicate just such imperialism.

They want to get rid of the guns now because they want to control all of the variables. Guns get int he way of their goal of pacification. Who needs militias and vigilantes running around when they can fly over the cities with drones and take your picture and the police can arrest you on any pretense they care to dream up?

This is a total perversion of what the founders wanted. And most people are not even aware of the reasons for this or how things got off track. They are told that they have freedom, so they believe it. To not believe such a thing seems treasonous so it is better not to think about it. And that is how they operate.

They want you to think the opposite of what is happening and people accommodate them by playing their role. It was once patriotic to resist evil and fight against tyrrany. Now it is patriotic to do your duty and follow along and do whatever they tell you. If you don't then they play their patriotism card. Questioning authority when it was wrong was once a virtue. Now it is a sin.

The institutions are still there. They sort of work. It is the same in every country. Most of what we see is like an iceberg. The part above the water is harmless. The real danger lies in what is unseen. The real decisions are made behind closed doors the politician's job is to sell it to us and pacify us. It does not matter who gets elected because their function is to work within certain narrow parameters. That's why there never is any change.

Labels are essentially meaningless. It does not matter what party you belong to or who gets elected. It is what abilities that you have that they can use. They choose you before the electorate gets their say and they play both sides of the table. In the end, democracy counts for little. You are just picking who will stab you int he back. Besides, they pay the full tab so why shouldn't the choose. It is convenient that the people who pay the tab also own all of the media.

Barak Obama was hand picked. His election was no accident. Had McCain won, things would not be much different. Obama would have had to put his ambitions on hold and McCain would have been more than willing to do their work.

In my country it is the same way. One year it is the Conservatives who win and the next it is the Liberals. They are Dweedle Dee and Dweedle Dum. You could switch them around and nobody would know the difference. It has been that way since we became a country.

Take Great Britain. Tony Blair was for the Labour Party, but he was a conservative. So what was a conservative doing running for Labour? The Labour folks liked him because he could win and they were tired of being also rans. The establishment which is ordinarily anti-Labour liked him for the exact same reasons. He could win and he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The label is irrelevant. The content is what matters. And what matters most is that you are a good talking head. Blair was one and so is Obama. They could charm the fish from the sea, and do.

Politics in every country is pretty much a reality show. Except much of it is scripted ahead of time. In any case, it exists solely for our amusement and so they can tell us that we vote and therefore must have democracy. Nobody is thinking that maybe it is a good deal more complicated than just being able to vote. You can vote in communism, but people don't see that as democracy. They say that you have no choice. Duh? What's the difference? All countries are a one party state, except we call parts of the party one thing and other parts something else. They just have the audacity ot throw it in your face.

Dravenhawk
Feb 14th 2009, 05:16 AM
Just like the great Roman Empire of days of olde America is experiencing a collapse under the weight of its own greed and lust for pleasure of the flesh, and power. Over the course of the latter half of the 20th century to the present day America has come under siege by satanic forces. The Law as given to Moses by God was intended to show mankind a metaphysical principle of prosperity, peace and harmoney. In the New Testament Jesus came to BECOME the ultimate sacrifice to purchase our redemption and to fufill the law because the law was never intended to be a means of salvation.

Ok lets get back to America and how it all settles out. As we look at how our government conducts its self. In many state houses of government there is no prayer offered before govenrment conviens. Prayer is taken out of our schools and gunfights and gang warfare have taken root in our classrooms. A few years back a small monument of a cross some 50 feet tall marked the gravesite of Father Sara founder of the City of Ventura. Special interests groups had the cross removed. The 10 commandments no longer grace the walls of the courthouse and at Christmas time the Nativity scene no longer is allowed in publically held land. America has made a difinitive move to becoming one nation AWAY from God. So much grief and misery could be avoided if America remembered that "You shall have no other gods before me" This includes but is not limited to pop stars, movie stars, rock idols, authors, bling bling, big shiny cars etc

American abortion mills crank out more murders of innocent lives in a single year than the Nazis murdered in the entirity of thier rule. Homosexuality runs through our society like a debautcherous cancer with prideful displays of thier lustful agenda. The gay movement has piggybacked thier agenda upon the back of legitimate human rights claims of religious freedoms, and racial equality through which they ram thier sinful ways down the throats of those who do not accept a gay lifestyle or find it contrary if not downright repulsive to thier religous beliefs. Our culture extols the excitement of sex through advertising, TV, movies, and print while negating the virtues of simple abstenance. The skyrocketing rate of AIDS and STDs could be contained and eliminated by simplly adhearing to a couple of comandments "thou shalt not murder" and "Thou shalt not comit adultry"

Greed and the lust for power have trumped help thy neighbor. Our society has given extreme prestige to acts of lavish greed and self exhaultation, while a person exhibiting humility and honesty is often labeled a wimp by his peers. While the greedy have raided our treasury through "legitimized thievery" by bankers, the government is forced to borrow heavily from other nations like the Chinese to cover the losses all the while those responsible for the financial catastrophe go unpunished. America's financial system is collapsing and all the money in China will not help us. Debt weakens a houshold, company, township, State by siphoning off resources that could be used to sustain for lean times in the future. The mess we are in gives good creedence to the scripture "thou shalt not steal"

Our government has taken laws off the books that put to death those hardened criminals who molest our children, comit rape, and murder innocent. Many of those criminals return to the streets only to rape, murder and molest our children on repeat offences. As Jesus taught us that a little bit of yeast works through the whole batch of dough the same is true when hardened criminals are given a free pass.

Like the foolish builder who built his house upon a foundation of sand America cannot make any kind of stand while it crumbles into the sea. God neither protects nor punishes America for the acts it does. Punishment will be reserved for the judgment day. The further America deviates from the Gods law, the more troubles it invites upon its doorstep. The closer America draws its self to God the better prepared it is to handle adversities AND avoid them all together. As we entered into the 21st century the dollar slipped quietly out of the number one perferred curency and has been replaced by the Euro. Recently I heard on NPR radio that drug dealers are moving to the Euro as the currency of choice. Just like our famous General Custer America is making its futile last stand as one nation away from God.

Dravenhawk

DurbanDude
Feb 14th 2009, 10:26 AM
This is sad but most people are too busy trying to make ends meet and consume. The consumer mentality of the western world really took hold with the advent of television.

We were inviting companies into our living rooms to proselytise us. The payoff was free entertainment. Or is it free? We pay them to progandise us, but don't see it as this. Again it is all part of the smoke and mirrors.

They control us and our thoughts and we don't realise it. Even now. I just read an interview with a British pop star, Lily Allen. What caught my eye was something that she said. She feels the compulsive need to read fashion mags and shop, but afterwards feels bad for doing it. Her music apparently is about being conflicted about the things she does. This sums up her generation. They know that what they are doing is bad for their bodies, bad for their body image, and bad for the environment, but hey do it any way. It gives them an immediate high, that is later followed by guilt and angst.

That is the way with most people. They do things without realising what they are doing. So thorough are they programmed that it is akin to being on drugs. We acquire things that leave us empty, but wanting more.

The media is controlled and so are most people. They have been neutralised and pacified. Take America. The founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they saw the erosion of rights.

People get mad over the government wanting to take their guns away, but don't care if they want to snoop on your every move and give the authorities unprecedented rights to treat them like a criminal, just on somebody's say so or suspicions.

The whole idea behind the gun law was to have militias to prevent the need for a standing army which they viewed with great suspicion and disdain. Now the U.S. not only has a standing army but has bases all over the world and spends more on the military than all other countries combined. The founders fought and died to eradicate just such imperialism.

They want to get rid of the guns now because they want to control all of the variables. Guns get int he way of their goal of pacification. Who needs militias and vigilantes running around when they can fly over the cities with drones and take your picture and the police can arrest you on any pretense they care to dream up?

This is a total perversion of what the founders wanted. And most people are not even aware of the reasons for this or how things got off track. They are told that they have freedom, so they believe it. To not believe such a thing seems treasonous so it is better not to think about it. And that is how they operate.

They want you to think the opposite of what is happening and people accommodate them by playing their role. It was once patriotic to resist evil and fight against tyrrany. Now it is patriotic to do your duty and follow along and do whatever they tell you. If you don't then they play their patriotism card. Questioning authority when it was wrong was once a virtue. Now it is a sin.

The institutions are still there. They sort of work. It is the same in every country. Most of what we see is like an iceberg. The part above the water is harmless. The real danger lies in what is unseen. The real decisions are made behind closed doors the politician's job is to sell it to us and pacify us. It does not matter who gets elected because their function is to work within certain narrow parameters. That's why there never is any change.

Labels are essentially meaningless. It does not matter what party you belong to or who gets elected. It is what abilities that you have that they can use. They choose you before the electorate gets their say and they play both sides of the table. In the end, democracy counts for little. You are just picking who will stab you int he back. Besides, they pay the full tab so why shouldn't the choose. It is convenient that the people who pay the tab also own all of the media.

Barak Obama was hand picked. His election was no accident. Had McCain won, things would not be much different. Obama would have had to put his ambitions on hold and McCain would have been more than willing to do their work.

In my country it is the same way. One year it is the Conservatives who win and the next it is the Liberals. They are Dweedle Dee and Dweedle Dum. You could switch them around and nobody would know the difference. It has been that way since we became a country.

Take Great Britain. Tony Blair was for the Labour Party, but he was a conservative. So what was a conservative doing running for Labour? The Labour folks liked him because he could win and they were tired of being also rans. The establishment which is ordinarily anti-Labour liked him for the exact same reasons. He could win and he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The label is irrelevant. The content is what matters. And what matters most is that you are a good talking head. Blair was one and so is Obama. They could charm the fish from the sea, and do.

Politics in every country is pretty much a reality show. Except much of it is scripted ahead of time. In any case, it exists solely for our amusement and so they can tell us that we vote and therefore must have democracy. Nobody is thinking that maybe it is a good deal more complicated than just being able to vote. You can vote in communism, but people don't see that as democracy. They say that you have no choice. Duh? What's the difference? All countries are a one party state, except we call parts of the party one thing and other parts something else. They just have the audacity ot throw it in your face.

Well said. Things are different in South Africa. The ruling party is the ANC, which has been ruling since Mandela's days. Yet I think they are currently regarded as rogue and unpredictable internationally. There are just too many criminals doing their own thing in the ANC. Luckily their leaders do a lot of really stupid things, so the media is tearing them apart. Although they have had two thirds majority and could make laws as they pleased, I don't think they will survive the next election. This is one of the few cases when the change of government to more "internationally co-operative", will be both better for our country and fit in with the world scheme at the same time. So for now I'm enjoying that the ANC is being ripped apart by the internationally controlled media, hoping for a new govt this year.

DurbanDude
Feb 14th 2009, 10:42 AM
Like the foolish builder who built his house upon a foundation of sand America cannot make any kind of stand while it crumbles into the sea. God neither protects nor punishes America for the acts it does. Punishment will be reserved for the judgment day. The further America deviates from the Gods law, the more troubles it invites upon its doorstep. The closer America draws its self to God the better prepared it is to handle adversities AND avoid them all together. As we entered into the 21st century the dollar slipped quietly out of the number one perferred curency and has been replaced by the Euro. Recently I heard on NPR radio that drug dealers are moving to the Euro as the currency of choice. Just like our famous General Custer America is making its futile last stand as one nation away from God.

Dravenhawk

Well said. America has become morally corrupt, and its military is spread all over the world, while its leaders plan to drop military spending. If the wars would stop first, then it would make sense to reduce military spending. The tide possibly will never be turned, but we can slow the process by not just accepting what the madia says about the need for wars in foreign places. And by taking a more moral standpoint.

But we are not of this kingdom. I think this thread has been good to make people more aware of the truth behind the scenes. It's always good to know the truth. Yet our focus is growing God's kingdom until the end of days for the time is short.

DurbanDude
Feb 14th 2009, 10:48 AM
...Regardless of what scenario u subscribe to, or perhaps none of these at all, I wish both you & your walk with the LORD complete & total fullfillment in the coming day's & peace brethren....

Thanks for that blessing Icon :D

Teleiosis
Feb 14th 2009, 02:20 PM
I look at the end-times as a process.
To get to the point where people would turn to a beast of a man for peace and safety means that the heat has to gradually be turned on until it reaches a fever pitch.

I think the "beginning of birth pains" Jesus tells us will happen have a very strong correlation to the first four horsemen.

I think the first four horsemen correspond to the four chariots Zechariah sees in chapter 6 of his book and an angel tells Zechariah that these four are "spirits" going to work in the world.

I think the four horsemen have been at work for a long time, longer than our lifetime and have revolutionized the world from what it was like for centuries.

I think the effects of the four spirits from God are ongoing and I can see evidence of them in the order they are presented in Revelation today.

Overall, I look at them as successive waves.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Danielchapter704c.jpg

This view allows the one 'seven' as the birth process for a new age.
I also note that while nearly everyone confines the first four Seals within the one 'seven' drawing a one-for-one correlation with the years - nothing within the Seal chronology demands that interpretation.

Indeed, as the nature of parallel accounts usually gives the broad overview before getting specific about a lesser amount of time (like the "two" creation accounts of Genesis 1-3) I allow time for the Seals before the one 'seven.'

Evil things are afoot, and don't think America is a knight in shining Christian armor. She's part and parcel with the evil overtaking the world.

quiet dove
Feb 14th 2009, 07:52 PM
Just like the great Roman Empire of days of olde America is experiencing a collapse under the weight of its own greed and lust for pleasure of the flesh, and power. Over the course of the latter half of the 20th century to the present day America has come under siege by satanic forces. The Law as given to Moses by God was intended to show mankind a metaphysical principle of prosperity, peace and harmoney. In the New Testament Jesus came to BECOME the ultimate sacrifice to purchase our redemption and to fufill the law because the law was never intended to be a means of salvation.

Ok lets get back to America and how it all settles out. As we look at how our government conducts its self. In many state houses of government there is no prayer offered before govenrment conviens. Prayer is taken out of our schools and gunfights and gang warfare have taken root in our classrooms. A few years back a small monument of a cross some 50 feet tall marked the gravesite of Father Sara founder of the City of Ventura. Special interests groups had the cross removed. The 10 commandments no longer grace the walls of the courthouse and at Christmas time the Nativity scene no longer is allowed in publically held land. America has made a difinitive move to becoming one nation AWAY from God. So much grief and misery could be avoided if America remembered that "You shall have no other gods before me" This includes but is not limited to pop stars, movie stars, rock idols, authors, bling bling, big shiny cars etc

American abortion mills crank out more murders of innocent lives in a single year than the Nazis murdered in the entirity of thier rule. Homosexuality runs through our society like a debautcherous cancer with prideful displays of thier lustful agenda. The gay movement has piggybacked thier agenda upon the back of legitimate human rights claims of religious freedoms, and racial equality through which they ram thier sinful ways down the throats of those who do not accept a gay lifestyle or find it contrary if not downright repulsive to thier religous beliefs. Our culture extols the excitement of sex through advertising, TV, movies, and print while negating the virtues of simple abstenance. The skyrocketing rate of AIDS and STDs could be contained and eliminated by simplly adhearing to a couple of comandments "thou shalt not murder" and "Thou shalt not comit adultry"

Greed and the lust for power have trumped help thy neighbor. Our society has given extreme prestige to acts of lavish greed and self exhaultation, while a person exhibiting humility and honesty is often labeled a wimp by his peers. While the greedy have raided our treasury through "legitimized thievery" by bankers, the government is forced to borrow heavily from other nations like the Chinese to cover the losses all the while those responsible for the financial catastrophe go unpunished. America's financial system is collapsing and all the money in China will not help us. Debt weakens a houshold, company, township, State by siphoning off resources that could be used to sustain for lean times in the future. The mess we are in gives good creedence to the scripture "thou shalt not steal"

Our government has taken laws off the books that put to death those hardened criminals who molest our children, comit rape, and murder innocent. Many of those criminals return to the streets only to rape, murder and molest our children on repeat offences. As Jesus taught us that a little bit of yeast works through the whole batch of dough the same is true when hardened criminals are given a free pass.

Like the foolish builder who built his house upon a foundation of sand America cannot make any kind of stand while it crumbles into the sea. God neither protects nor punishes America for the acts it does. Punishment will be reserved for the judgment day. The further America deviates from the Gods law, the more troubles it invites upon its doorstep. The closer America draws its self to God the better prepared it is to handle adversities AND avoid them all together. As we entered into the 21st century the dollar slipped quietly out of the number one perferred curency and has been replaced by the Euro. Recently I heard on NPR radio that drug dealers are moving to the Euro as the currency of choice. Just like our famous General Custer America is making its futile last stand as one nation away from God.

Dravenhawk

While you are correct in your assessment, the problem is also not that Christians are not picketing up in Washington, but that Christians, or way to many 'professing to be' are living the same way as those who are non-believers. In other words, how many professing Christians need that big fancy house and big fine car and those things are more important than their neighbors hungry children?

When it comes to doing business, someone claiming to be a Christian is way to many times less trust worthy than the one making no such claim. We allow to wolves in with the sheep, the wolves think they are sheep and the real sheep have a pretty difficult time telling who is actually what. Greed has taken over even amongst the real sheep!! We are all guilty, how many of us were/are neck deep in dept and still trying to figure out how to get more stuff?

In some way, one way or another, big way or small way, we are all guilty. We need to clean up our own house, one by one, each of us needs to judge ourselves and clean up our own house. We are lacking in the most basic of what Christ taught, loving our neighbors as ourselves and that is very apparent when a new "whatever" is more important than our neighbor eating.

I am not saying we do not care and that we are all bad, not at all, just saying that we need to take a long serious look at ourselves, judge ourselves, repent of our sins, pray for one another and ask God, what is my job today, with a lot less attention going to what new gadget do my children want today. The gadgets are not wrong in and of themselves, but they are wrong when they are our priority. We need to, including myself, judge ourselves and clean up our own house, pray, and repent.

And I am not pointing a figure at you all but confessing, I am guilty.

Dravenhawk
Feb 14th 2009, 09:07 PM
While you are correct in your assessment, the problem is also not that Christians are not picketing up in Washington, but that Christians, or way to many 'professing to be' are living the same way as those who are non-believers. In other words, how many professing Christians need that big fancy house and big fine car and those things are more important than their neighbors hungry children?

When it comes to doing business, someone claiming to be a Christian is way to many times less trust worthy than the one making no such claim. We allow to wolves in with the sheep, the wolves think they are sheep and the real sheep have a pretty difficult time telling who is actually what. Greed has taken over even amongst the real sheep!! We are all guilty, how many of us were/are neck deep in dept and still trying to figure out how to get more stuff?

In some way, one way or another, big way or small way, we are all guilty. We need to clean up our own house, one by one, each of us needs to judge ourselves and clean up our own house. We are lacking in the most basic of what Christ taught, loving our neighbors as ourselves and that is very apparent when a new "whatever" is more important than our neighbor eating.

I am not saying we do not care and that we are all bad, not at all, just saying that we need to take a long serious look at ourselves, judge ourselves, repent of our sins, pray for one another and ask God, what is my job today, with a lot less attention going to what new gadget do my children want today. The gadgets are not wrong in and of themselves, but they are wrong when they are our priority. We need to, including myself, judge ourselves and clean up our own house, pray, and repent.

And I am not pointing a figure at you all but confessing, I am guilty.

I took a good look at myself and have seen the truth that I am part of the problem. I think every one of us Christian or not shares in this mess to some degree, which inspired me to write this.

BroRog
Feb 14th 2009, 10:14 PM
America by itself is not the beast. The beast is when all the countries team up together. That's when the world system becomes a beast.

Islam is not the beast. Islam is one of the plagues. God gave the world Islam in order to force the beast to acknowledge a few things. Namely,

The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

This represents the two tablets of the Ten Commandments. On one tablet we read God's command to not have other gods before him, and to avoid idolatry. On the other tablet we have God's commandments concerning our dealings with human beings. The plagues are supposed to cause us to repent of these things and to turn to God for solutions.

America, in so far as she acts like a beast, is prone to warfare and reliance on her mighty armies. As it says, we call fire down from heaven and the world says, "who can make war with the beast?" The plague of militant Islam becomes deadly because this plague incorporates groups and individuals, acting on their own, outside the reach of nation states who can not be fought using conventional means: no uniforms, civilian shields, suicide bombers, and non-hierarchical command structure. This plague is tailor made to challenge the beast and the tools of his conventional warfare. It doesn't really stop the beast, but militant Islam is a huge irritation and like locust, a plague that uses up all our resources. As Daniel has predicted, the world is spending huge fortunes on security (fortresses) all in an effort to fight against this plague.

We can't prosper in peace as long as this plague remains. And according to Revelation, even in view of our lack of prosperity, even in view of the fact that we spend vast fortunes on security, so much that we are going broke, we don't repent.

Why is that?

dan
Feb 16th 2009, 06:04 AM
Not if they set up the communists, assisted in their writings and control their leaders. Western organisations are tied in with Moslem leaders more than you could ever know. Sure, the Moslem/Russian alliance is and will be strong, I believe the bible predicts they will at first be the most vocal supporter of the western antichrist alliance, yet will turn on the antichrist at the end at the final battle.

...I've seen the ties between the West and the communists. Especially, the Democrat Party and China.

No, the Bible says that Russia is the AC, actually. With the number of murders they commit, I'm not surprised.

Joe King
Feb 16th 2009, 03:07 PM
...I've seen the ties between the West and the communists. Especially, the Democrat Party and China.

No, the Bible says that Russia is the AC, actually. With the number of murders they commit, I'm not surprised.

Where in scripture is this?

dan
Feb 16th 2009, 06:35 PM
Where in scripture is this?

...The impression I got investigating Meshech and Tubal:

EZEK 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Tubal is Spain. Meshech is Russia. I was thinking that God was talking about the limits of an empire. A great nation. Or, perhaps, in today's terms, the European Union, with Russia as a member.

Interestingly, Spain has recently adopted the Socialist Party as the government majority, under the threat of more terrorism.

Add that to Socialism's dedication to, "changing times and laws", and you have an acceptable formula for the first beast. The second beast is one of the greatest supporters of the first.

DAN 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Russia has always had a big influence on the terror groups, due to their support, and they are the ten horns. They have already burnt the "whore" with fire. Voila!

I think it's time to leave Europe.

drew
Feb 21st 2009, 05:38 PM
GW freed 50 million people to be brought to Christ. They were not allowed to hear the Gospel until they were free. Good War!

Now, we retreat and send them back to Islam without any chance of keeping the opportunity to hear the Gospel? No.
I do not agree with this argument. The US invaded a sovereign state that was not threatening them. The way of the sword is not the gospel way. The choice to go to war in Iraq was not the best option, at least from a Christian perspective.

Catamaran29
Feb 21st 2009, 06:01 PM
Hello,

I needn't tell you I'm a newby. Interesting opinions I've been reading. End-times is always meaty. But, I find the perspectives more telling. Most responders reference events present or expected from their prospective of being a citizen of America, or their particular place of residence -- As some responders have here.

There is one thign I can say about America for sure. If it continues to be a world power, it will be among those gathered in the valley of Jezreel to fight God. The alternative is total collapse of America as a power in the world. (It could reunite with England and eventually the EU, but I think it will just collapse into civil war, for the last time).

But what is that to us, who bare the name of Christ; we whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life? Are we not sojourners, vagabonds, with no certain dwellliing place, who look for a city not made with hands, whose builder and maker is God?

Though we pay rent, or have a mortgage here, is it our home?

Catamaran29
Feb 21st 2009, 06:17 PM
I'm new here, so bare with me, in patience.

Do know anyone who's been through "birth pains (labor)? That person could give you another insight into time lines. My wife went through it 6 times and well acquainted with pain.

Often birth pains are preceeded by what are known as Brakston-Hicks contractions (false labor). Necessary to the process somehow, but not considred real labor (tell that to the mother).

Then comes "real labor". Pains start out relatively light (a judgement which can only be fully apreciated at the end), with periods of normalcy, and gradually the intensity and frequency increase until, WHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

So it is with the end of the age. We may have seen, or are in the false labor. Or, we may be in the begining of labor. But, when it begins in earnest, there is no stopping it.

dan
Feb 22nd 2009, 07:59 AM
I do not agree with this argument. The US invaded a sovereign state that was not threatening them. The way of the sword is not the gospel way. The choice to go to war in Iraq was not the best option, at least from a Christian perspective.

...Your feelings on the matter. However, there's a little matter of Prophecy here, I believe.

MT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

BroRog
Feb 22nd 2009, 05:20 PM
Just a quick reminder, America is not a theocracy. And neither is she being led by kings that give an oath to the Church. Just like other countries, we simply act in our own best interests.

dan
Feb 23rd 2009, 12:06 PM
Just a quick reminder, America is not a theocracy. And neither is she being led by kings that give an oath to the Church. Just like other countries, we simply act in our own best interests.

...Or, maybe we are the Chosen Country:

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

I believe that the US is that Chosen Country. Praise God!

Joe King
Feb 23rd 2009, 01:17 PM
...Or, maybe we are the Chosen Country:

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

I believe that the US is that Chosen Country. Praise God!

I believe the US is the Babylon of Revelations, not the chosen country. Our judgment is upon us.

drew
Feb 23rd 2009, 10:27 PM
...Your feelings on the matter. However, there's a little matter of Prophecy here, I believe.

MT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
How, and please be specific, does this prophecy undermine what I believe to be the Biblical assertion that violence and war not the ways of the gospel?

My original post was in response to someone who seemed to think the Iraq war was a "good war".

Surely your argument cannot be this: "Since there are prophecies of war, God wants us to initiate wars".

drew
Feb 23rd 2009, 10:33 PM
...Or, maybe we are the Chosen Country:

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
I think that Jesus is saying that the "Jew plus Gentile" nation of faith inherits the kingdom, and not the ethnic nation of Israel. Such a reading harmonizes much better with much of what Paul writes.

I see no evidence at all of any allusion to the United States.

Reynolds357
Feb 24th 2009, 06:02 PM
No one is righteous but God.
No one is "Self Righteous" but God. The statement "No one is righteous but God," fails to recognize that Christ gave us His Righteousneess and through His shed blood He made us Righteous. "Righteouness" is determined by a positional relationship with the Father through Christ. It appears to me that your statement improperly mingles the doctrine of sanctification with the doctrine of justification. Just my opinion. Our righteousness in Christ is dependent on His righteousness, not our works. Our sanctification is dependent on our works.

quiet dove
Feb 24th 2009, 09:24 PM
No one is "Self Righteous" but God. The statement "No one is righteous but God," fails to recognize that Christ gave us His Righteousneess and through His shed blood He made us Righteous. "Righteouness" is determined by a positional relationship with the Father through Christ. It appears to me that your statement improperly mingles the doctrine of sanctification with the doctrine of justification. Just my opinion. Our righteousness in Christ is dependent on His righteousness, not our works. Our sanctification is dependent on our works.


The Greek word for sanctify means "to set apart" for God's use. Jesus sanctifies us just like it is His righteousness that makes us righteous. The Greek also is a word that indicates a process, perfected in principle but still a work in process, still to be attained. Christ sanctified us and His sanctification of us is a continuing/lasting process, or a continuing to work in us process.

--We are sanctified by Jesus just like we are justified and made righteous by Jesus
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
Jud 1:1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:


--Past tense
Act 20:32 "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

--Past tense, and by faith/Jesus
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.


--We are sanctified by the truth which would be faith in Christ Jesus)
Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.


--An established truth, and yet an on going process
Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,


--Even our works must be sanctified by the Holy Spirit in order to be an acceptable offering to the Lord
Rom 15:16 that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

dan
Mar 1st 2009, 03:58 AM
How, and please be specific, does this prophecy undermine what I believe to be the Biblical assertion that violence and war not the ways of the gospel?

My original post was in response to someone who seemed to think the Iraq war was a "good war".

Surely your argument cannot be this: "Since there are prophecies of war, God wants us to initiate wars".

Perhaps, violence is not how the Gospel is supposed to be spread, in our endeavors, but God's ways are not for us to judge or thwart.

That being said, look at how it came together: Incorrect (reportedly) intelligence, etc., etc. But what was the result? 25 million people freed to read the Gospel. That's a little strange, but still, there it is.

As for God wanting us to initiate wars, in a word, yes! Have you not read the Bible?

EX 15:3 Jehovah is a man of war: Jehovah is his name.

PROV 20:18 [Every] purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war.

PROV 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors [there is] safety.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

REV 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.


I think that Jesus is saying that the "Jew plus Gentile" nation of faith inherits the kingdom, and not the ethnic nation of Israel. Such a reading harmonizes much better with much of what Paul writes.

I see no evidence at all of any allusion to the United States.

I disagree. There is only one nation that has provided the "fruits" of the Kingdom. The USA.

Partaker of Christ
Mar 1st 2009, 10:57 PM
...Or, maybe we are the Chosen Country:

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

I believe that the US is that Chosen Country. Praise God!

Are you saying that God waited around, for about 1500 years for the USA to arrive on the scene?

We are a Royal Priesthood, and a Holy Nation belonging to God.

Here is a clue: 'not the USA'

kay-gee
Mar 2nd 2009, 01:11 PM
Ha ha ha ha ha If USA is Gods chosen Nation, then please explain Hollywood and Las Vegas, and all the rest of that.

all the best...

Dunamite
Mar 3rd 2009, 09:08 PM
If there is a predominant culture and values on the globe it is American. It is global in outreach whether is music, movies, or printed media. Go to remote Africa and you will find kids wearing American clothing, made in China, but with American labels and icons on the front.

I was reading an article on the US economy and it said that America spends 55% of the world's total military expenditures. It has over 100 military bases on foreign soil in over 75 different countries. If that isn't global then I don't know what is.

So if America is winning the culture war and it is the last stand then the world should be getting better. Right?

I hope that this thread is tongue and cheek because if you are serious then things are worse off than I imagined.

Ephesians 6: 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Acts 4: " 'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.

dan
Mar 6th 2009, 03:18 AM
If there is a predominant culture and values on the globe it is American. It is global in outreach whether is music, movies, or printed media. Go to remote Africa and you will find kids wearing American clothing, made in China, but with American labels and icons on the front.

I was reading an article on the US economy and it said that America spends 55% of the world's total military expenditures. It has over 100 military bases on foreign soil in over 75 different countries. If that isn't global then I don't know what is.

So if America is winning the culture war and it is the last stand then the world should be getting better. Right?

I hope that this thread is tongue and cheek because if you are serious then things are worse off than I imagined.

Ephesians 6: 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Acts 4: " 'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.

...Is not bad to begin with. Also, the beast will disarm the earth, the US has encouraged arms to thwart violence. Jesus did this also:

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.


Are you saying that God waited around, for about 1500 years for the USA to arrive on the scene?

We are a Royal Priesthood, and a Holy Nation belonging to God.

Here is a clue: 'not the USA'

1500 years is a day and a half to God.:lol: But I never said anything about a priesthood.

I contend that the world will be in turmoil in the end times, and America will be "the place where the people of God will gather":

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

The "clues" that tells me this is the fact that the US is the greatest contributor to charities in the world, the greatest source of missionaries in the world, and the greatest source of Bibles in the world.

Therefore, we are the nation that provides the "fruits":

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Please, my brothers, don't be broken, and don't be powdered.

iconoclast2012
Mar 6th 2009, 08:57 PM
...Or, maybe we are the Chosen Country:

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

I believe that the US is that Chosen Country. Praise God!
"I believe the US is that chosen country"....Double Amen bro...And now I'm gonna do ya' one better....there is a very good reason America & the rest of this severly darkening planet has referred to my beloved brethren of the southern states as...." THE BIBLE BELT "We whom for better than the past two hundred years have been faithfull in upholding the word & the testimony of the LORD JESUS CHRIST...WE whom are poor and downtrodden, yet rich in spirit...We whom are the spiritual backbone of our country and shall remain an ever faithfull witness to the LORD and HIS word...until the very end.YES I have firmly believed for a long time know that the LORD has a very special blessing for my country and in particular these here southern bible lovin' country brethren of the LORD...G.B.Y'all....{singin}....And thats my story and i'm stickin' to it...now give me a hug n' amen...and play me some country fiddle......

dan
Mar 11th 2009, 05:27 AM
"I believe the US is that chosen country"....Double Amen bro...And now I'm gonna do ya' one better....there is a very good reason America & the rest of this severly darkening planet has referred to my beloved brethren of the southern states as...." THE BIBLE BELT "We whom for better than the past two hundred years have been faithfull in upholding the word & the testimony of the LORD JESUS CHRIST...WE whom are poor and downtrodden, yet rich in spirit...We whom are the spiritual backbone of our country and shall remain an ever faithfull witness to the LORD and HIS word...until the very end.YES I have firmly believed for a long time know that the LORD has a very special blessing for my country and in particular these here southern bible lovin' country brethren of the LORD...G.B.Y'all....{singin}....And thats my story and i'm stickin' to it...now give me a hug n' amen...and play me some country fiddle......

I don't play the fiddle. But, now, I wish I did.:lol::hug: