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JesusReignsForever
Jan 29th 2009, 11:20 PM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?

Muchas Gracias mi hermanos and hermanas en Christo.... a lil spanish kick for ya!! :lol:

ross3421
Jan 30th 2009, 12:56 AM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place.

When the dead in Christ rise first..........

JesusReignsForever
Jan 30th 2009, 01:06 AM
When the dead in Christ rise first..........


I know that... I meant where in the timeline.

Dragonfighter1
Jan 30th 2009, 01:23 AM
JRF,
I can tell you you deserve the can o worms award for that question! lol!

There are three basic positions, pretrib, midtrib and posttrib. There are others such as pre-wrath but I wont go into that just yet.

The majority of the non american world hold to a post trib rapture. The history of the church was post trib until the last 160 or so years. Pre trib, supposedly, was identified by a teenage Irish catholic girl who claimed to have a vision from Jesus that the church would not be here when the trib occured. Whether that is true is unknown to me- it seems highly unlikely... but I am not well versed in "stories" so I generally ignore such things. Anyway, for millenia and so forth post trib was THE position. Then pretrib came along and it has some valid points. I don't agree with them but let me hasten to say, SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE PRE TRIB AND THEY ARE INTELLIGENT SMART AND THOUGHTFUL PEOPLE.

I was pretrib and switched about 20 years ago. I have longed to switch back to pre trib because it causes so much division in my life. But, alas, I cannot since I could not in honest faith hold to it, as I do not believe it is a legitimate interpretation of scripture. (I hasten to add many of my close friends hold the exact opposite and we choose not to be divided from each other.)

This can be very divisive. Do not let that happen in this thread. Whatever you choose, be sincere and be meek!

I think we will be raptured in Rev 20:5... I see no way around this verse in context with those surrounding it. (as I say, with genuine sincerity, some of my friend see no problem with that verse, but I do, so be honest with yourself, do not be swayed by friendship).

Study Rev 20:5 and trhe surrounding verses and see if you can escape the obvious conclusion...

All the best,

DF

Dani H
Jan 30th 2009, 01:42 AM
At the return of Jesus. Who, by the way, is only coming back ONCE. :)

JesusReignsForever
Jan 30th 2009, 02:13 AM
I can tell you you deserve the can o worms award for that question! lol!

Oh yipeeee!! I love to go fishing a nice can of worms would be great.. but Im not putting the worm on the hook:no: ewwww


Rev 20:5 Got it!! Let the studying commence!:idea: And I wont let any friendships interfere...

JesusReignsForever
Jan 30th 2009, 02:14 AM
At the return of Jesus. Who, by the way, is only coming back ONCE. :)

I believe it only once...are there some who argue he is coming back twice? Or shoud I not even go down that road...:rofl:

divaD
Jan 30th 2009, 04:51 AM
I believe it only once...are there some who argue he is coming back twice?

If there is a pre-trib rapture, then obviously that means that Christ is coming back at least twice. Since I know that concept is not taught in Scriptures, I choose to be post-trib. Christ only comes back one time that way, just like the Scriptures claim. So whether a pre-tribber wants to admit it or not, Christ has to return at least two times according to that view. Personally I don't see how that's possible, since the Scriptures fail to mention that Christ returns more than once. But this is just my own opinion tho.

In the OT we see many references to the day of the Lord. Are we to believe that there is more than one day of the Lord? Could not these passages be referring to that same day? Different perspectives perhaps? Or perhaps the day of the Lord spans a great deal of time, and isn't meant to be interpreted literally as a 24 hour day?

Dragonfighter1
Jan 30th 2009, 01:43 PM
At the return of Jesus. Who, by the way, is only coming back ONCE. :)
AMEN! Never forget that one brother.. it seems some can't quite grasp it.

Dragonfighter1
Jan 30th 2009, 01:49 PM
Oh yipeeee!! I love to go fishing a nice can of worms would be great.. but Im not putting the worm on the hook:no: ewwww


Rev 20:5 Got it!! Let the studying commence!:idea: And I wont let any friendships interfere...
The double can of worms award is handed out only rarely...moonglow and I are the creators and "can wranglers". Please enjoy!
http://bibleforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4860&d=1224250281

Truthinlove
Jan 30th 2009, 01:56 PM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?

Muchas Gracias mi hermanos and hermanas en Christo.... a lil spanish kick for ya!! :lol:

Well, you will get MANY different answers on here. ;)

However, as far as the timeline in Rev. I see the rapture as taking place at the 6th seal...Rev. 6:12-17

Although the raptured is not directly mentioned there, it does fit with the signs in the sun, moon and stars as I can show in my blog which I will post in a minute.

However, we do see the RESULT of the rapture in Rev. 7:9-17. There is a multitude of saints in heaven so great in number and they have come out of the great tribulation.

This chart may help you understand the timeline. It is from a prewrath point of view and shows the timing of the rapture in relation to the seals and the 7 year period. The little yellow stars with numbers represents the seals in Revelation. Any questions, let me know.
http://www.solagroup.org/articlespix/charts/chart16.jpg

Here is my blog which supports my view of a pre-wrath rapture and shows how the rapture is linked with the signs in the sun, moon and stars, and thus would place it at the 6th seal of Revelation.

The Rapture of the Church


by "Truthinlove"
5/25/07


I believe Scripture clearly defines when the rapture will happen in relation to other end-time events. My desire is that instead of taking my word for it, this article would encourage you to compare the Scriptures to each other and pray and see if you come to the same conclusion.

The Bible tells us that we won't know the day or hour of the rapture (Matt. 24:36), but just a couple of verses earlier (vs. 32 &33), He teaches us that we can know the season.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 5:1-2 describes the rapture. "And now, dear brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died. I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet Him ahead of those who are still in their graves. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with Him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words. I really don't need to write to you about how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night." NLT

The last two sentences are in a new chapter, but we must read it in context because his thought continues on the same topic of the rapture. In the original text there were no chapter or verse breaks. He has not changed the subject. If you were to start in ch. 5 you would naturally ask "when will what happen"? And the answer is the rapture, because that is what he was just talking about!

Paul gives us a name in regards to the timing of the rapture, it is the Day of the Lord. Clearly the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord!! So, when does the day of the Lord begin?

Two very important Scriptures will help us out.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 says "And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet Him. Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed – the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the ....temple.. of ..God...., claiming that he himself is God." NLT

In other words, the day that Christ comes and gathers us (the rapture) at the beginning of the day of the Lord will not happen until after the antichrist defiles the temple, an event which clearly happens at the halfway point of the 7 year period. (Dan. 9:27).

Joel 2:31 gives us the signs that happen prior to the day of the Lord "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

So, now I would refer you back to the the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24.

Here again the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord...perfectly paralleling what Paul teaches in 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

We see the signs that announce the beginning of the day of the Lord, then we see the rapture. Notice the rapture and the day of the Lord will come after the midpoint when antichrist begins his persecution of the Jews and saints. Again, this parallels Paul's teaching about the rapture without contradiction.

I see these two texts as essential to knowing the timing of the rapture.

The Day of the Lord not a 24 hour day, it is a time period of unknown duration when God will pour out His judgment on the wicked during the 70th week. The Day of the Lord contains the wrath of God. Believers will not endure the wrath of God. (1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9, Romans 5:9)

In Revelation, the Day of the Lord begins in Rev. 8, after the signs in the sun, moon & stars and after the rapture of the saints which is shown as the great multitude in heaven having come out of the great tribulation. The rapture occurs at the 6th seal in Revelation. After the cosmic signs, but before the Day of the Lord.

In Luke 21:28 we are told "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" in relation to the signs in the sun, moon and stars, because the rapture will take place after those signs and then God's wrath will begin.

2 Thess. 1:6-8 says "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are given relief (raptured) from affliction (persecution by antichrist, aka - great tribulation) when Jesus comes, and then He will punish the wicked.

The days of the 2nd Coming are compared to the days of Noah and ..Lot.. (Matt. 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).
The righteous were rescued and the wicked destroyed on the same day. It will be "just the same" when Jesus returns. Also, the wicked mocked Noah for preparing and building the ark, but they were destroyed in the flood. It will be the same in the last days (2 Peter 3:3-4).

From the comparison of these Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that the rapture will happen at the 6th seal of Rev. sometime during the 2nd half of the 7 years, after the great tribulation by the antichrist. Then the wrath of God will be poured out in the Day of the Lord via the trumpet and bowl judgments.

Here is a sequence of Revelation that may help you understand while studying it. Again, people do disagree on this, but this is the most straight-forward way to read Revelation taking it at face value.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological, the book of Rev. is chronological too, but with ch. breaks to give more detail of events that will happen during the time period he already described.

Ch. 1 - Introduction to Revelation
Ch.'s 2 & 3 - Warnings to the churches
Ch.'s 4 & 5 - Into to the seals
Ch. 6 - The seals
Ch. 7 - Intro to the trumpets
Ch.'s 8 & 9 - Description of the trumpet judgments
Ch. 10 - Conclusion to seals & trumpets
Ch.'s 11, 12, 13, 14 - (Break in the chronological events to give more detailed info) Description of events that occur during the seals & trumpets
Ch. 15 - Intro to the bowl judgments
Ch. 16 - Bowl judgments
Ch.'s 17 & 18 - (Break in the chronological events to give additional info)
Description of the religious and political Babylon
Ch. 19 - Armageddon
Ch. 20 - Millennium
Ch. 21 - New heavens & earth, New Jerusalem described
Ch. 22 – Epilogue

The trumpets and/or bowls can not overlap or happen at the same time as the seals because of Rev. 7:3! This gives even more proof to the judgments being chronological. First the 7 seals, THEN the 7 trumpets, THEN the 7 bowls.

Rev. 7:3 "...saying 'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads."

The sealing happens after the opening of the 6th seal, but before the 7th.
The 1st trumpet burns up 1/3 of the grass and trees
The 2nd trumpet turns 1/3 of the sea to blood and 1/3 of the creatures die and ships destroyed
The 3rd trumpet makes 1/3 of the freshwater bitter
The 2nd bowl is sea becoming blood
The 3rd bowl turns the freshwater to blood

If the trumpets and bowls overlapped the seals, that would make Rev. 7:3 impossible because it says for the angels to wait and NOT harm the earth, sea or trees until the sealing of the 144,000. It can't be happing at the same time when the sealing has to precede it.

God bless you in your study of Revelation!

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near" Rev.1:3

kangkongking
Jan 30th 2009, 01:57 PM
Whoa... I didn.t know Jesus was really to come back to earth more than once (which is te judgment day). :o

JesusReignsForever
Jan 30th 2009, 02:39 PM
Whoa... I didn.t know Jesus was really to come back to earth more than once (which is te judgment day). :o


Search the scriptures for yourself PLEASE dont read into it....you gotta know for yourself!! Which is why I am asking so I can gather and reread and ask the good lord to open my eyes so I can see the truth. I cant believe Jesus is coming back twice. I believe he is only coming back ONCE.

JesusReignsForever
Jan 30th 2009, 02:40 PM
Well, you will get MANY different answers on here. ;)

However, as far as the timeline in Rev. I see the rapture as taking place at the 6th seal...Rev. 6:12-17

Although the raptured is not directly mentioned there, it does fit with the signs in the sun, moon and stars as I can show in my blog which I will post in a minute.

However, we do see the RESULT of the rapture in Rev. 7:9-17. There is a multitude of saints in heaven so great in number and they have come out of the great tribulation.

This chart may help you understand the timeline. It is from a prewrath point of view and shows the timing of the rapture in relation to the seals and the 7 year period. The little yellow stars with numbers represents the seals in Revelation. Any questions, let me know.
http://www.solagroup.org/articlespix/charts/chart16.jpg

Here is my blog which supports my view of a pre-wrath rapture and shows how the rapture is linked with the signs in the sun, moon and stars, and thus would place it at the 6th seal of Revelation.

The Rapture of the Church


by "Truthinlove"
5/25/07


I believe Scripture clearly defines when the rapture will happen in relation to other end-time events. My desire is that instead of taking my word for it, this article would encourage you to compare the Scriptures to each other and pray and see if you come to the same conclusion.

The Bible tells us that we won't know the day or hour of the rapture (Matt. 24:36), but just a couple of verses earlier (vs. 32 &33), He teaches us that we can know the season.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 5:1-2 describes the rapture. "And now, dear brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died. I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet Him ahead of those who are still in their graves. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with Him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words. I really don't need to write to you about how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night." NLT

The last two sentences are in a new chapter, but we must read it in context because his thought continues on the same topic of the rapture. In the original text there were no chapter or verse breaks. He has not changed the subject. If you were to start in ch. 5 you would naturally ask "when will what happen"? And the answer is the rapture, because that is what he was just talking about!

Paul gives us a name in regards to the timing of the rapture, it is the Day of the Lord. Clearly the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord!! So, when does the day of the Lord begin?

Two very important Scriptures will help us out.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 says "And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet Him. Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed – the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the ....temple.. of ..God...., claiming that he himself is God." NLT

In other words, the day that Christ comes and gathers us (the rapture) at the beginning of the day of the Lord will not happen until after the antichrist defiles the temple, an event which clearly happens at the halfway point of the 7 year period. (Dan. 9:27).

Joel 2:31 gives us the signs that happen prior to the day of the Lord "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

So, now I would refer you back to the the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24.

Here again the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord...perfectly paralleling what Paul teaches in 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

We see the signs that announce the beginning of the day of the Lord, then we see the rapture. Notice the rapture and the day of the Lord will come after the midpoint when antichrist begins his persecution of the Jews and saints. Again, this parallels Paul's teaching about the rapture without contradiction.

I see these two texts as essential to knowing the timing of the rapture.

The Day of the Lord not a 24 hour day, it is a time period of unknown duration when God will pour out His judgment on the wicked during the 70th week. The Day of the Lord contains the wrath of God. Believers will not endure the wrath of God. (1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9, Romans 5:9)

In Revelation, the Day of the Lord begins in Rev. 8, after the signs in the sun, moon & stars and after the rapture of the saints which is shown as the great multitude in heaven having come out of the great tribulation. The rapture occurs at the 6th seal in Revelation. After the cosmic signs, but before the Day of the Lord.

In Luke 21:28 we are told "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" in relation to the signs in the sun, moon and stars, because the rapture will take place after those signs and then God's wrath will begin.

2 Thess. 1:6-8 says "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are given relief (raptured) from affliction (persecution by antichrist, aka - great tribulation) when Jesus comes, and then He will punish the wicked.

The days of the 2nd Coming are compared to the days of Noah and ..Lot.. (Matt. 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).
The righteous were rescued and the wicked destroyed on the same day. It will be "just the same" when Jesus returns. Also, the wicked mocked Noah for preparing and building the ark, but they were destroyed in the flood. It will be the same in the last days (2 Peter 3:3-4).

From the comparison of these Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that the rapture will happen at the 6th seal of Rev. sometime during the 2nd half of the 7 years, after the great tribulation by the antichrist. Then the wrath of God will be poured out in the Day of the Lord via the trumpet and bowl judgments.

Here is a sequence of Revelation that may help you understand while studying it. Again, people do disagree on this, but this is the most straight-forward way to read Revelation taking it at face value.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological, the book of Rev. is chronological too, but with ch. breaks to give more detail of events that will happen during the time period he already described.

Ch. 1 - Introduction to Revelation
Ch.'s 2 & 3 - Warnings to the churches
Ch.'s 4 & 5 - Into to the seals
Ch. 6 - The seals
Ch. 7 - Intro to the trumpets
Ch.'s 8 & 9 - Description of the trumpet judgments
Ch. 10 - Conclusion to seals & trumpets
Ch.'s 11, 12, 13, 14 - (Break in the chronological events to give more detailed info) Description of events that occur during the seals & trumpets
Ch. 15 - Intro to the bowl judgments
Ch. 16 - Bowl judgments
Ch.'s 17 & 18 - (Break in the chronological events to give additional info)
Description of the religious and political Babylon
Ch. 19 - Armageddon
Ch. 20 - Millennium
Ch. 21 - New heavens & earth, New Jerusalem described
Ch. 22 – Epilogue

The trumpets and/or bowls can not overlap or happen at the same time as the seals because of Rev. 7:3! This gives even more proof to the judgments being chronological. First the 7 seals, THEN the 7 trumpets, THEN the 7 bowls.

Rev. 7:3 "...saying 'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads."

The sealing happens after the opening of the 6th seal, but before the 7th.
The 1st trumpet burns up 1/3 of the grass and trees
The 2nd trumpet turns 1/3 of the sea to blood and 1/3 of the creatures die and ships destroyed
The 3rd trumpet makes 1/3 of the freshwater bitter
The 2nd bowl is sea becoming blood
The 3rd bowl turns the freshwater to blood

If the trumpets and bowls overlapped the seals, that would make Rev. 7:3 impossible because it says for the angels to wait and NOT harm the earth, sea or trees until the sealing of the 144,000. It can't be happing at the same time when the sealing has to precede it.

God bless you in your study of Revelation!

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near" Rev.1:3

Thanks for this I dont have the time now to dig in like I want to but I promise I will be back later with my shovel in hand ;) :lol:

Truthinlove
Jan 30th 2009, 02:41 PM
Thanks for this I dont have the time now to dig in like I want to but I promise I will be back later with my shovel in hand ;) :lol:

Alrighty! :lol:

kangkongking
Jan 30th 2009, 02:48 PM
Search the scriptures for yourself PLEASE dont read into it....you gotta know for yourself!! Which is why I am asking so I can gather and reread and ask the good lord to open my eyes so I can see the truth. I cant believe Jesus is coming back twice. I believe he is only coming back ONCE.

Yes. Exactly my point. I can't believe it either. I never said that I was just going to believe immediately what anyone says about this and that, and more, about Christ's coming. Because if I did, what kind of responsible Christian would I be? ... :hmm:

JesusReignsForever
Jan 30th 2009, 02:49 PM
Yes. Exactly my point. I can't believe it either. I never said that I was just going to believe immediately what anyone says about this and that, and more, about Christ's coming. Because if I did, what kind of responsible Christian would I be? ... :hmm:


tru tru sory for jumping the gun! Excuse me!:blush:

jesuslover1968
Jan 30th 2009, 03:41 PM
AMEN! Never forget that one brother.. it seems some can't quite grasp it.


How many times did He come back the first time? It seems some just can't quite grasp that there is one coming...in stages...just as there was at His first coming...:P:hug::)

divaD
Jan 30th 2009, 04:04 PM
From the comparison of these Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that the rapture will
happen at the 6th seal of Rev. sometime during the 2nd half of the 7 years, after the great
tribulation by the antichrist. Then the wrath of God will be poured out in the Day of the Lord
via the trumpet and bowl judgments.




Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


The problem I see with your conclusion is this. Look at verse 15 in this passage. This is inserted within the bowl judgments. Why would we be given this warning during the bowl judgments if Christ has already returned and the rapture has already taken place at this point? To come to a correct conclusion, one must be able to explain the reason for verse 15 if the rapture had already occured prior to this 6th vial.

Truthinlove
Jan 30th 2009, 05:45 PM
Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


The problem I see with your conclusion is this. Look at verse 15 in this passage. This is inserted within the bowl judgments. Why would we be given this warning during the bowl judgments if Christ has already returned and the rapture has already taken place at this point? To come to a correct conclusion, one must be able to explain the reason for verse 15 if the rapture had already occured prior to this 6th vial.

From Revelation commentary.org http://www.revelationcommentary.org/16_chapter.html

Revelation 16:15
(1) "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame."

1. Behold, I am coming like a thief = is often associated with the coming of the eschatological Day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10).
Given a literal interpretation of the trumpet and bowl judgments, it is beyond comprehension that any man on earth would continue to resist God’s rule and authority. Revelation 16:14 indicates that Satan/Antichrist/False Prophet will utilize demonic deception to gather "the kings of the whole world" "for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty." It is in this context that the Lord Jesus offers one of His clearest warnings. He states, "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame." Incorrectly some have taken the reference, "Behold, I am coming like a thief" to refer to the Rapture. However, this conclusion fails to appreciate not only the context, but also the historical usage of this phrase.
Jesus states in John 10:10, "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy…." This is the purpose of a thief. However, there is another issue related to the coming of a thief. This concerns his modus operandi (how he operates). That is, a thief comes suddenly and unexpectedly. The apostle Paul indicates "that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night (1 Thess. 5:2)." Paul indicates that in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 the point of the figure of speech is "suddenness." Therefore, the question concerning Revelation 16:15 is this: is the point that the Lord makes in Revelation 16:15 one of purpose or modus operandi? On the other hand, it could be both. A closer examination will reveal the correct answer.
The image of a man having disrobed and fallen asleep who is then caught sleeping, awakened by surprise and forced to parade about naked is clear. The question concerns its meaning. Alfred Edersheim is helpful at this point. In his book The Temple, It’s Ministries and Service, he writes,

Perhaps one of the most striking instances of this kind is afforded by the words quoted at the head of this chapter—’Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments.’ They literally describe, as we learn from the Rabbis, the punishment awarded to the Temple-guards if found asleep at their posts; and the Rabbinical account of it is curiously confirmed by the somewhat naive confession of one of their number, that on a certain occasion his own maternal uncle had actually undergone the punishment of having his clothes set on fire by the captain of the Temple as he went his rounds at night…During the night the ‘captain of the Temple’ made his rounds. On his approach the guards had to rise and salute him in a particular manner. Any guard found asleep when on duty was beaten, or his garments were set on fire—a punishment, as we know, actually awarded. (A. Edersheim, The Temple, Its Ministries and Service)
The point is obvious: the Lord will suddenly appear and the unprepared will suffer a great disaster. In the context of the sixth bowl, which gathers "the kings of the whole world" "for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty" this is clearly a warning—stay away. This is the only way to prevent a disaster at Armageddon for "the kings of the whole world." If they come to the battle, they will die.

David Taylor
Jan 30th 2009, 06:13 PM
Where does the Rapture fit in the tribulation timeline?

At the resurrection of the dead, when Christ returns, when the heavens be no more.

"the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heavenwith a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord" I Thess 4:15

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." Job 14:12

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end" I Corinthians 15:21

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine." Isaiah 26:19

"Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth. For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built. Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee. For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall. Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low. And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. " Isaiah 24:23

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." I Corinthians 15:51

"and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. " Daniel 12:1

"there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15

"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:12

divaD
Jan 30th 2009, 06:17 PM
From Revelation commentary.org http://www.revelationcommentary.org/16_chapter.html

Revelation 16:15
(1) "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame."

1. Behold, I am coming like a thief = is often associated with the coming of the eschatological Day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10).
Given a literal interpretation of the trumpet and bowl judgments, it is beyond comprehension that any man on earth would continue to resist God’s rule and authority. Revelation 16:14 indicates that Satan/Antichrist/False Prophet will utilize demonic deception to gather "the kings of the whole world" "for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty." It is in this context that the Lord Jesus offers one of His clearest warnings. He states, "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame." Incorrectly some have taken the reference, "Behold, I am coming like a thief" to refer to the Rapture. However, this conclusion fails to appreciate not only the context, but also the historical usage of this phrase.
Jesus states in John 10:10, "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy…." This is the purpose of a thief. However, there is another issue related to the coming of a thief. This concerns his modus operandi (how he operates). That is, a thief comes suddenly and unexpectedly. The apostle Paul indicates "that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night (1 Thess. 5:2)." Paul indicates that in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 the point of the figure of speech is "suddenness." Therefore, the question concerning Revelation 16:15 is this: is the point that the Lord makes in Revelation 16:15 one of purpose or modus operandi? On the other hand, it could be both. A closer examination will reveal the correct answer.
The image of a man having disrobed and fallen asleep who is then caught sleeping, awakened by surprise and forced to parade about naked is clear. The question concerns its meaning. Alfred Edersheim is helpful at this point. In his book The Temple, It’s Ministries and Service, he writes,

Perhaps one of the most striking instances of this kind is afforded by the words quoted at the head of this chapter—’Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments.’ They literally describe, as we learn from the Rabbis, the punishment awarded to the Temple-guards if found asleep at their posts; and the Rabbinical account of it is curiously confirmed by the somewhat naive confession of one of their number, that on a certain occasion his own maternal uncle had actually undergone the punishment of having his clothes set on fire by the captain of the Temple as he went his rounds at night…During the night the ‘captain of the Temple’ made his rounds. On his approach the guards had to rise and salute him in a particular manner. Any guard found asleep when on duty was beaten, or his garments were set on fire—a punishment, as we know, actually awarded. (A. Edersheim, The Temple, Its Ministries and Service)
The point is obvious: the Lord will suddenly appear and the unprepared will suffer a great disaster. In the context of the sixth bowl, which gathers "the kings of the whole world" "for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty" this is clearly a warning—stay away. This is the only way to prevent a disaster at Armageddon for "the kings of the whole world." If they come to the battle, they will die.




It's not my intention to be argumentive, but isn't the last half of that verse being ignored?

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


Who would be the blessed that watcheth, if the rapture has already occured at that point in time? And not only that, what would they be watching for?

It seems that you made a point in your prev post about it being like the days of Noah. In the days of Noah, salvation and God's wrath happened together. Noah and his family didn't go anywhere, they were right in the midst of God's wrath, yet they weren't hurt by it because they were safely within the ark. Perhaps you see the point I'm trying to make?

moonglow
Jan 30th 2009, 08:16 PM
Search the scriptures for yourself PLEASE dont read into it....you gotta know for yourself!! Which is why I am asking so I can gather and reread and ask the good lord to open my eyes so I can see the truth. I cant believe Jesus is coming back twice. I believe he is only coming back ONCE.

Well actually He was here once already...which is why we refer to the next time He comes as the Second Coming. ;)

Yes I am a bug...:lol:

As far as I am concerned...the rapture IS the resurrection of everyone. David Taylor gave you the scriptures on this.

God bless

JesusMySavior
Jan 31st 2009, 05:41 AM
I myself used to be pre-trib because all of the background teaching I had heard was pre-trib - in fact I had no notion that there was any different view.

Much of the churches (especially up here in the midwest) teach pre-trib as a standard, default doctrine because it was a form of what some teachers taught and many churches follow them rather than searching it out for themselves.


To me, it was a simple fact that Jesus would call His followers up into heaven and then the wrath of God would be poured out on all the earth, then Jesus would stop armageddon and the 1,000 years would begin.


Then I started pondering the 'what ifs' and suppose for once that the rapture does NOT occur before the tribulation...what will we ever do? Not being prepared and being caught off guard can produce some bad fruit and even some denials in Christians. Some will think that God has "left them" or "forgotten about the church" when His Word clearly says (from my findings) that He won't gather the saints until after the trial of testing is over.

I am a post-tribber, simply because I have read the Bible and developed a truth for myself. If you can read the scriptures and find a pre-trib point of view, more power to you - but I found it extremely difficult , to develop that view.

Borean
Jan 31st 2009, 05:45 AM
Sorry, I do not believe in the rapture...who would guide the new converts, or do you think it is too late then?

My heart's Desire
Jan 31st 2009, 06:18 AM
I am a post-tribber, simply because I have read the Bible and developed a truth for myself. If you can read the scriptures and find a pre-trib point of view, more power to you - but I found it extremely difficult without twisting or 'spiritualizing' scripture, or taking it out of context, to develop that view.
I've found just the opposite to be true. When passages are read in the common way without spiritualizing or making an allegory out of everything that is prophetic, pretrib rapture is the most likely. Obviously, signs of the Lord's return are given in many places, yet it appears that Paul and those with him thought the return of the Lord could occur at any moment, leading me to believe that, even though I respond to many of the "signs" threads here, that before the rapture of the Church there are no signs, except what occurs at the time it happens. I think it could happen at any time.
(really should be in bed and none of that probably came out like I meant it too):(

My heart's Desire
Jan 31st 2009, 06:30 AM
I believe it only once...are there some who argue he is coming back twice? Or shoud I not even go down that road...:rofl: Pretrib believes He comes in the air and calls His Church up to Him, so He doesn't really return to the earth to stay until the 2cd coming when He returns and sets feet on the earth. So there is only one 2cd coming to the earth. Pretrib doesn't equate His coming for the Church as the same as when He returns to the earth with His saints.

Cyberseeker
Jan 31st 2009, 09:25 AM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?

Muchas Gracias mi hermanos and hermanas en Christo.... a lil spanish kick for ya!! :lol:

Muchas Gracias JRF, :D

The tribulation-rapture timeline is clearly taught in the book of Revelation. The place to pin-point is chapter 11.
Verse 3 "I will give power to my two witnesses ..."
The 2 witnesses are the church, sometimes mistaken to be two individuals by those who do not understand symbolic prophecy.
Verse 7-10 "... the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them ... For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze ... The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them ..."
This vision is a description of the tribulation and the temporary defeat of the church at the hand of the Antichrist system.
Verse 11-12 "... after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on ..."
This is the rapture. It is the clearest picture of the rapture in the Bible - even clearer than St. Pauls epistles.
Verse 15 "... The seventh angel sounded his trumpet ..."
This is the last trump which is always mentioned as sounding when the rapture takes place. (1Thess 4:16, 1Cor 15:52, Matt 24:31)


Regards,

Cyberseeker.

TexasBeliever
Jan 31st 2009, 01:16 PM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?

Muchas Gracias mi hermanos and hermanas en Christo.... a lil spanish kick for ya!! :lol:

In my opinion, it dosen't matter which version you have, for concerning the Lord's coming, they say exactly the same thing. In the Old Testament, there was only one coming; at the END. This is also what everyone in the New Testament believed.
Jesus Himself said that His coming would be "after the tribulation of those days."
The Day of the Lord is described this way:

"A day of thick clouds and darkness."

"Just as lightning flashes in the east and can be seen in the west, so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be."

"The Day of the Lord shall be accompanied by fire."

The Day of the Lord is the day that the wheat and the tares are seperated.

On the Day of the Lord, He is accompanied by angels who gather the wheat into His barn AND slay the wicked.

The sun shall be darkened the moon will not shed it's light and the stars will be falling from the sky, BEFORE the great and terrible Day of the Lord.

All these things happen at the END.
They do not happen at the beginning (of seven years) and then happen again at the end.

I did not take the time to look up chaper and verse. In every chapter and verse that speaks of the coming of the Lord, the timeline is the same: AT THE END.

There is not ONE verse in scripture that speaks of a "silent", "seperate" coming at the "beginning".

The Lord Himself said that the reason He gave us all the signs was so we could know that He was coming and so WE would not be in darkness.

I would also like to mention that there are only TWO resurrections mentioned in the scriptures: One is the resurrection to life, the other the resurrection to damnation.

The resurrection to life happens when the Lord comes (The Day of the Lord) the resurrection to damnation happens 1000 years later.

Thus, in order to have a pretrib rapture, you have to make yourself believe that there are TWO resurrections to Life and TWO comings of the Lord.

This can be found nowhere in the scriptures.

divaD
Jan 31st 2009, 03:42 PM
yet it appears that Paul and those with him thought the return of the Lord could occur at any moment


Where is there proof that Paul thought like this?


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


This sure doesn't sound like Paul thought Christ could return at any moment, even in his lifetime. He's pretty clear here, that certain things must first transpire before Christ can return. And verse 5 confirms that this wasn't a new revelation to Paul, since he reminded them that he already told them these things at an earlier point in time.

I would still be interested to see your passages, that indicates Paul thought Christ could return at any moment, the ones that would trump this passage.:)

Dragonfighter1
Jan 31st 2009, 04:04 PM
All this is good, but I still don't see how anyone can get around the first several verses of Revelation Chapter 20. (assuming they are sincere)
After all to negate those verses you have to find the Bible to be in error. Its so blatantly stated that, to change the obvious meaning, it requires immense dishonesty, redefinition of terms, and disregard for the obvious.

I am not trying to offend any who differ from me by speaking so strongly... but I have yet to have anyone give even a slightly reasonable reason why it should be ignored. Mostly they jump to other verses that can be played with more easily.... As if that will negate Rev 20... which of course it doesnt!

DF

REVELATION 20....
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

divaD
Jan 31st 2009, 06:00 PM
All this is good, but I still don't see how anyone can get around the first several verses of Revelation Chapter 20. (assuming they are sincere)
After all to negate those verses you have to find the Bible to be in error. Its so blatantly stated that, to change the obvious meaning, it requires immense dishonesty, redefinition of terms, and disregard for the obvious.

I am not trying to offend any who differ from me by speaking so strongly... but I have yet to have anyone give even a slightly reasonable reason why it should be ignored. Mostly they jump to other verses that can be played with more easily.... As if that will negate Rev 20... which of course it doesnt!

DF

REVELATION 20....
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.



Hi DF. Your post confuses me. Are you certain you posted it into the correct thread? It's not hard to post in the wrong thread, especially if one has more than one thread open at a time. But if it was meant to be posted in this thread, what is it in relation to?

billy-brown 2
Jan 31st 2009, 06:35 PM
All this is good, but I still don't see how anyone can get around the first several verses of Revelation Chapter 20. (assuming they are sincere)
After all to negate those verses you have to find the Bible to be in error. Its so blatantly stated that, to change the obvious meaning, it requires immense dishonesty, redefinition of terms, and disregard for the obvious.

I am not trying to offend any who differ from me by speaking so strongly... but I have yet to have anyone give even a slightly reasonable reason why it should be ignored. Mostly they jump to other verses that can be played with more easily.... As if that will negate Rev 20... which of course it doesnt!

DF

REVELATION 20....
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Let's take a "no offense" approach to the topic of this thread, because we are all learning . . .

But if your take on Rev. 20 is true (whatever it might be), then all of the passages referred to in the post by David Taylor need to be "harmonized" with it.

On the other hand, if the passages given by David Taylor are true (I assume the "take" there is different than yours), then your take on Rev. 20 has to be "harmonized" with that.

What a challenge . . .

Let us consider also the passage by the writer of the book of Hebrews:

Heb. 9:24-28:

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

and the Apostle Paul writes in Phil. 3:17-21:

Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,

whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose
glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

The bold, large-type scripture passages above are of concern to me. Here is my question:

Can any of these passages be harmonized with your view of Rev. 20? Or can Rev. 20 be harmonized with any of these passages?

I don't know the answer . . . someone does, though . . . ;)

Dragonfighter1
Jan 31st 2009, 09:29 PM
Hi DF. Your post confuses me. Are you certain you posted it into the correct thread? It's not hard to post in the wrong thread, especially if one has more than one thread open at a time. But if it was meant to be posted in this thread, what is it in relation to?
No, I meant to post it here. Its a direct reference to the rapture question...

One first appearance and subsequent crucifixion...
One second coming, resurrection(first) and the subsequent millenium of satans incarceration...

This is not the second resurrection (see verse 5) it is the first.. ergo(therefore) no rapture could have occurred prior to this, else this would be a "SECOND resurrection" which is patently absurd. Since only those who are in this first resurrection are exempted from the second death..(see verse 6)

All the best
DF

quiet dove
Jan 31st 2009, 10:16 PM
Thus, in order to have a pretrib rapture, you have to make yourself believe that there are TWO resurrections to Life and TWO comings of the Lord.


No more so than any other view "makes" themselves" believe.

Lets not go in this direction folks. Give your understanding, but don't give someone elses understanding and especially the why of their understanding. We all here study scripture, that is our why, for all views and all people holding those views. We all know there are ,many views here, watch the wording and be careful not to imply or insinuate, then we can have a peaceful discussion and we might actually learn something.

This is not a message personal to TexasBeliever as many of all views tend to think they know more about others than they do, so it is a message for all.

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2009, 10:23 PM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?

Muchas Gracias mi hermanos and hermanas en Christo.... a lil spanish kick for ya!! :lol:

Check out Matthew 24 and Revelations 6 and 7. My personal opinion is that when all those clothed in white show up suddenly in heaven, that they are those that were raptured out of the tribulation period before the wrath of the Lamb is let loose.

Grace and peace,

Mark

yaza
Feb 1st 2009, 12:21 AM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?

Muchas Gracias mi hermanos and hermanas en Christo.... a lil spanish kick for ya!! :lol:
we pass through fire. find when the fire comes down and you will find out when we go up! tu ares bonita. yaza

Teleiosis
Feb 1st 2009, 01:11 AM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?


You cannot read the book of Revelation like a novel.

To do so repeats events and will confuse you.


"Repeated events?" you say?

Yes, count the times half of the one 'seven' is listed.

You'll find five of them.


The one 'seven' is NOT seventeen and half years long!
The book of Revelations is written using a particular construction technique called parallel accounts.

Parallel accounts go into greater detail to focus in on a particular activity or event which God has determined is important to tell us.

We use this technique with epic movies where so much action is happening at different locations at the same time that they are pieced together but in a linear fashion. We can recognize these parallel constructs in movies by the shift in both scene and focus.

Likewise, there is much afoot in the end-times with several different angles to it to view and understand what God has in store for us and the world. So using the tool of looking for both a shift in scene and focus: I have roughly divided the book of Revelation into seven major parallel accounts and a sidebar account about the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Rev 11:1-13.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Tribulationperiod02.jpg

What I have not depicted in this particular graphic is the timeline starting in Revelation 19 which is right before the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon where the final part of God's Wrath is poured out on the desolator and he (the anti-Christ) is captured (along with the false prophet) alive, judged and then sent to Hell.

Chapter 20 then propels us into the Millennium and sees the end of that period of time with the second Resurrection (mentioned also in Dan 12:2; Mt 25:31-46; and John 5:28-29).

Christ takes John further on in linear narrative style (the basic format for prophecy) to the New Earth and New Heavens which exist after this world is done away at the end of the Millennium.

That timeline exceeded what I could show on the graphic, so on that I have six major parallel accounts and the sidebar account which is used to interrupt the omission of the seventh Trumpet.


__________________________________________________ _

The Rapture can be seen in its delivery into Heaven at the sixth Seal of the Seal chronology in Revelation chapter 7:9-17.

Likewise, in the parallel account to that of just the one 'seven' in chapters 13 through 16 inclusive, the Rapture is shown as the Harvest of Revelation chapter 14:14-16 which also describes the Day of the Lord found in Mt 24:29-31. This event is also described by Paul in 1Th 4:16-17.

I hope that helps you.

Mark

ScottJohnson
Feb 1st 2009, 04:32 AM
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Tribulationperiod02.jpg
Hi Mark,

Revelation was written with seven local congregations from first century Asia Minor in view. In chapters 2 and 3 of the book, we see Jesus, individually addressing each of these churches.

Why is it that your chart shows this as a taking 2,000 years to complete?

Teleiosis
Feb 1st 2009, 05:02 AM
Jesus is addressing seven local churches in Asia Minor.
However, each Church has a future promise in Heaven.
So by the very nature of the messages to the Churches, a timeline is suggested from the first century into the future when we're in Heaven.

The physical map of the Churches form a circle of sort geographically.
This also harkens back to the seven pipes illuminated by the two olive trees in Heaven in Zechariah:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Afterthis02b.jpg

The question is: why these particular churches and why in this order?

The answer might be that each represents the predominant characteristic of the Church during the Church Age. Some present a block approach:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Afterthis02.jpg

Others have given definite dates for such... and that's nice, but as all seven churches exist simultaneously, I don't take such a step-wise approach, but I agree the Church has undergone changes during her "season" to grow between the Spring Festivals of First Fruits when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles and the Last Trumpet which announces the Returning Anew of Rosh ha-Shanah (which acts as template for the Day of the Lord).

So I depict the Churches schematically as a ribbon with one type of church being more than the others in waves.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Afterthis02c.jpg

Then what I do is condense this and incorporate into the main timeline I developed from Daniel describing the nations.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Afterthis06a2.jpg

This way all seven types of Churches coexist simultaneously throughout the Chruch Age, but one flavors the Church so heavily it becomes the predominant color.

And each type of Church has a future promise for those who overcome.

Mark.

ross3421
Feb 1st 2009, 03:10 PM
Check out Matthew 24 and Revelations 6 and 7. My personal opinion is that when all those clothed in white show up suddenly in heaven, that they are those that were raptured out of the tribulation period before the wrath of the Lamb is let loose.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Again.......The dead in Christ shall rise first

Teleiosis
Feb 1st 2009, 10:19 PM
Yes, and since only a few of Elect are still alive and are left as Paul says and John reports a Great Multitude showing up - then the Dead in Christ who were raised first are part of the Great Multitude. Indeed, they are what make it unnumberable.

Mark

ross3421
Feb 1st 2009, 10:31 PM
Yes, and since only a few of Elect are still alive and are left as Paul says

Does Paul mean they are "living" in the flesh upon the earth or is he saying that they are alive after being resurrected......

Consider the dead in Christ = the alive and remain


Mark

Teleiosis
Feb 1st 2009, 11:06 PM
So you want to redefine what Paul says?

1Th 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Paul defines those who are still alive and are left will be preceded by the Dead in Christ.

Therefore your point that those who are still alive are the dead is not warranted; indeed, it is totally refuted by this passage in 1st Thessalonians.

Let's stay rooted in the Bible and keep to what it says.

Mark

My heart's Desire
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:18 AM
Where is there proof that Paul thought like this?


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


This sure doesn't sound like Paul thought Christ could return at any moment, even in his lifetime. He's pretty clearActually, this passage doesn't present a problem for a pretribber as we intrepret it to mean that Paul was including himself as being gathered up to Christ when the Lord returns at the rapture of the Church and this will happen before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed which is what also happens BEFORE the Lord returns to the earth as described in the Book of Revelation.

We also have in 1 Thess. 1:9-10 that says: For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God,
10. and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Titus 2:11-13 tells us they were to deny ungodliness and worldly desires etc in the PRESENT age as they were looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.
If this is true then they were looking for His appearing even in their day and we know that was at least 2000 yrs ago. It didn't say anything about signs either.
They were looking for the blessed hope, not for tribulation.

James 5:8 exhorts them to be patient; strengthening their hearts, for the coming of the Lord was near, so near in fact that verse 9 tells us that the Judge was standing right at the door which is almost a picture of the Lord standing with His hand on that door, ready to return for it is related to verses 7, 8.

Even 1 Pet. 4:7 says the end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
Why would he say the end of all things is near if he didn't expect the Lord to return at any time?
In 1 Corth. 7:29 Paul says this:
But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;
Why did he think the time had been shortened and people should stay as they were, etc married, unmarried, so on?

I know you will disagree with me, but most of these passages tell the people how they should live before the coming of the Lord and they said it as if they believed He could appear at any time. As we know Revelation tells us many signs and happenings that happen before the day Christ sits foot on the earth. They didn't tell people to look for signs but to actively look for the Lord to gather them up to Him.

divaD
Feb 2nd 2009, 08:16 PM
Actually, this passage doesn't present a problem for a pretribber as we intrepret it to mean that Paul was including himself as being gathered up to Christ when the Lord returns at the rapture of the Church and this will happen before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed which is what also happens BEFORE the Lord returns to the earth as described in the Book of Revelation.

We also have in 1 Thess. 1:9-10 that says: For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God,
10. and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Titus 2:11-13 tells us they were to deny ungodliness and worldly desires etc in the PRESENT age as they were looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.
If this is true then they were looking for His appearing even in their day and we know that was at least 2000 yrs ago. It didn't say anything about signs either.
They were looking for the blessed hope, not for tribulation.

James 5:8 exhorts them to be patient; strengthening their hearts, for the coming of the Lord was near, so near in fact that verse 9 tells us that the Judge was standing right at the door which is almost a picture of the Lord standing with His hand on that door, ready to return for it is related to verses 7, 8.

Even 1 Pet. 4:7 says the end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
Why would he say the end of all things is near if he didn't expect the Lord to return at any time?
In 1 Corth. 7:29 Paul says this:
But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;
Why did he think the time had been shortened and people should stay as they were, etc married, unmarried, so on?

I know you will disagree with me, but most of these passages tell the people how they should live before the coming of the Lord and they said it as if they believed He could appear at any time. As we know Revelation tells us many signs and happenings that happen before the day Christ sits foot on the earth. They didn't tell people to look for signs but to actively look for the Lord to gather them up to Him.



Hi My heart's Desire. You certainly presented some very interesting verses. Apparently I need to look into this a bit closer. And no...at this point...I wouldn't go as far as thinking that'll I'll disagree with you. I'm not sure if I disagree with you or not, to be honest. You've certainly given me something to look into.

Teleiosis
Feb 2nd 2009, 10:25 PM
Actually, this passage doesn't present a problem for a pretribber as we intrepret it to mean that Paul was including himself as being gathered up to Christ when the Lord returns at the rapture of the Church and this will happen before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed which is what also happens BEFORE the Lord returns to the earth as described in the Book of Revelation.

You'd have to interptret that Jesus returns at the Rapture of the Church and this happenss before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed - because that's not what Paul wrote!

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
So while Paul wrote in this fashion on the page: Day of the Lord; Rapture (until) rebellion; man of lawlessness revealed -

- the one word which changes the order in which these events will come about is the word: "until."

This one word shifts the sequence of events. The proper sequence-of-events shown in verses 1 and 3 are as follows:

Rebellion occurs
Man of lawlessness revealed
Jesus comes
Rapture
This is not unlike the Olivet Discourse where Jesus says the following sequence-of-events will occur:

Midpoint abomination = man of lawlessness revealed
Great Tribulation
Sun/moon/star event = Day of the Lord (same as Paul)
Gathering of the Elect = Rapture of the Church
We can sequence the Rebellion before the midpoint because of 2Th 2:3 and we can know the Great Tribulation happens in between the revealing of the man of lawlessness and the Day of the Lord because of the Olivet Discourse.

And the persecution of the anti-Christ against the Church was taught by Jesus when He said we would be handed over.

But we will not suffer God's Wrath because we are called up to Heaven at the sixth Seal - before the Wrath of God goes out when the Scroll is finally unsealed and the Trumpets can commence! Thus Paul is right in saying what he did in 1Th 1:9-10.

God's Wrath is not the Great Tribulation and the one 'seven' is not the Tribulation period either.

Mark

ross3421
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:02 PM
So you want to redefine what Paul says?

1Th 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Paul defines those who are still alive and are left will be preceded by the Dead in Christ.

Therefore your point that those who are still alive are the dead is not warranted; indeed, it is totally refuted by this passage in 1st Thessalonians.

Mark


Well, I am not sure what translation who are using but there are sure some added commentary involved most notable the inclusion of the word "still" to give the added impression that they "living" on the earth. But look at the previous verse, key in the word "also".....

1th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

What Paul is saying is that both Paul and those whom he is speaking will be raised up together with them who now sleep. Both Paul and those of Thess understood that they will be well in the grave when these thing occur.

The dead in Christ shall rise first

Very important to understand the timing of being caught up. The dead are raised on the last day upon Christ's return thus it therefore is impossible for a pretrib rapture of the living. This is why some hold to the view of posttrib however this too is erroneous as those which do not except the mark of the beast are killed whereby no believers are upon the earth when Christ returns. Furthermore, this is why some then say the 144,000 is the church as they are a goup of believers which do remain living on earth when Christ returns but clearly they are of tribes of Israel.

We are made "alive" upon the resurrection

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

When are we made alive?

1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Let's stay rooted in the Bible and keep to what it says.

I could not agree with you more.........

Mark

ross3421
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:21 PM
Actually, this passage doesn't present a problem for a pretribber as we intrepret it to mean that Paul was including himself as being gathered up to Christ when the Lord returns at the rapture of the Church and this will happen before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed which is what also happens BEFORE the Lord returns to the earth as described in the Book of Revelation.

Ummm... Does the resurrection of the godly also occur before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed? The supposed rapture occurs after the dead in Crist are raised.......

1th 4:16 and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up



and they said it as if they believed He could appear at any time.

Even those of Thess knew this not to be the case....but when Christ comes as a thief in the night.

1th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

When does scripture say he comes as a thief?

Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Re 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Re 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


Mark

Teleiosis
Feb 3rd 2009, 12:51 AM
Mark (Ross3421):

Your assertion that we who are alive are the ones resurrected from Paradise on the Day of the Lord is still wrong from a reasonable reading of not only 1Th 4:16-17, but 1Co 15:51-52 AND Mt 24:22.


1th 4:14... What Paul is saying is that both Paul and those whom he is speaking will be raised up together with them who now sleep.

That is totally incorrect.

Paul is saying those who have died before Jesus comes will be resurrected from death. That event will happen first and then Jesus will come with them as He gathers those who are still alive and are left upon the earth.

Now if you don't like the meaning-for-meaning NIV rendition of 1Th 4:15-17, as I think trying to understand prophecy is hard enough without trying to read it in an antiquated form of English which we no longer use, - let's try the best word-for-word translation: the NASB.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Now let's get this straight. First those who have passed away before Jesus comes will be resurrected from death. THEN those who are alive when Christ comes are caught up second.

The dead RISE.
The living are CAUGHT UP.
There is a difference...

Paul says the same thing, making a difference between those who have died and those who are still alive in 1Th 4:14:

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. (NASB)
Jesus comes with the Saints from Paradise on the clouds to gather the Elect from the earth. Paul gives an observer-true perspective of one who is still alive and left upon the earth in 1Th 3:13:

...at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. (NASB)
Now some DO remain! There are Christians ON the earth when Jesus comes!

This is shown not only by the language Paul uses in 1Th 4:15 and 17 but in 1Co 15:51-52:

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will NOT all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be changed. (NASB)
Paul was alive speaking to living people showing them the end-times Rapture from the perspective of a living person at that moment.

You said:

those which do not except[sic] the mark of the beast are killed whereby no believers are upon the earth when Christ returns.

Jesus said not all believers will be killed by the Great Tribulation!

Mt 24:22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a Great Trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (NASB)
The Great Tribulation is cut short by the Day of the Lord in time so that some of the Elect will still be alive and left after the Great Tribulation so that they can be changed in an instant and join the Saints Jesus brings with Him on the clouds as the Angels gather the Elect from the earth's four winds!

There are some who remain or are still alive when Jesus comes. You're wrong to say there are none. Trying to read "alive" in a figurative sense for the way that God will call forth the dead from Paradise (the ends of Heaven) forgets that Paul is talking about a literal event.

Mark

JesusReignsForever
Feb 3rd 2009, 01:42 AM
Revelation 7

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"

13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will
The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"

13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
wipe away every tear from their eyes."



This is were I believe the rapture is going to take place.... I am out of town for the next 2 weeks so i wont be able to reply as soon as I would like to I will be in and out.

God Bless

My heart's Desire
Feb 3rd 2009, 07:24 AM
You'd have to interptret that Jesus returns at the Rapture of the Church and this happenss before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed - because that's not what Paul wrote!
2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
So while Paul wrote in this fashion on the page: Day of the Lord; Rapture (until) rebellion; man of lawlessness revealed -

- the one word which changes the order in which these events will come about is the word: "until."

This one word shifts the sequence of events. The proper sequence-of-events shown in verses 1 and 3 are as follows:

Rebellion occurs
Man of lawlessness revealed
Jesus comes
Rapture

This is not unlike the Olivet Discourse where Jesus says the following sequence-of-events will occur:

Midpoint abomination = man of lawlessness revealed
Great Tribulation
Sun/moon/star event = Day of the Lord (same as Paul)
Gathering of the Elect = Rapture of the Church

We can sequence the Rebellion before the midpoint because of 2Th 2:3 and we can know the Great Tribulation happens in between the revealing of the man of lawlessness and the Day of the Lord because of the Olivet Discourse.

And the persecution of the anti-Christ against the Church was taught by Jesus when He said we would be handed over.

But we will not suffer God's Wrath because we are called up to Heaven at the sixth Seal - before the Wrath of God goes out when the Scroll is finally unsealed and the Trumpets can commence! Thus Paul is right in saying what he did in 1Th 1:9-10.

God's Wrath is not the Great Tribulation and the one 'seven' is not the Tribulation period either.

Mark
The 7 years are the 70th week of Daniel. The last 3 1/2 of which is the Great Trib or should I say the time of Jacob's trouble. There will be no persecution of the Church by the AntiChrist because the AC is not revealed Until the Church is caught up to heaven to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The Church will not go through the judgments that is brought upon those who dwell upon the earth because the Church will not be here.

We could also discuss here how long the day of the Lord is and what is involved in it, what starts it etc but many have already discussed this in other threads. The day of the Lord could very well involve the 7 yr period and yet still be called the day of the Lord.

My heart's Desire
Feb 3rd 2009, 07:48 AM
Regardless, my point is that the Lord could return for His Church at any time. There are no signs to watch for whereas there are plenty of things to watch for and which will happen (per Book of Revelation) before the Lord actually returns and sets foot on this earth again.
I believe after reading Paul's letters and his tone for Godly living he did expect to see the Lord's return for the Church in His lifetime. Elect means chosen and the elect in the Book of Revelation doesn't have to mean those in the Church. It can also mean the elect of the people of Israel, the Lord's brethren. Could the 144,000 that are sealed not also be considered the elect or the chosen?

Teleiosis
Feb 3rd 2009, 11:55 AM
The point is that Jesus told us the keystone passage which lets us know that His Return will not happen until other things have happened.

Paul never preached of an anytime-Rapture.


The 7 years are the 70th week of Daniel.

True. That's what Daniel 9:24-27 say, except it calls it the one 'seven' because it's not seven lunar years (Hebrew calendar) or seven solar years (Roman calendar) but a 'period of seven' in prophetic years of 360 days each.


The last 3 1/2 of which is the Great Trib or should I say the time of Jacob's trouble.

False. One, the Great Tribulation is cut short, so saying it lasts the whole of the rest of the one 'seven' is not supported but refuted by no less an authority in the Bible than Jesus.

Two, the Great Tribulation is directed at the Elect by the anti-Christ.
The Time of Jacob's trouble is when Israel is dealt with by God.

They are not the same thing, but they both revolve around the Day of the Lord.
- The Great Tribulation comes immediately after the Great Tribulation (and effectively ends it in my opinion)
- The time of Jacob's trouble begins on the (second half of the) Day of the Lord when Jesus tramples out His Wrath upon the idolatry which is in Israel.


There will be no persecution of the Church by the AntiChrist because the AC is not revealed Until the Church is caught up to heaven to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

False. Not only will the anti-Christ wage war upon the Saints as foretold in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 for the (first) half of the one 'seven,' but Jesus said we would be handed over to be persecuted in the opening sequence-of-events in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24.

The reason for this is 2Co 12:9 - His power is made perfect in our weakness. We need Jesus - literally!

Moreover - as explained but ignored, Paul says that we are not taken up on the Day of the LORD UNTIL the man of lawlessness is revealed. This corresponds with the Olivet Discourse which sets the Rapture after the midpoint of the one 'seven.' Language means things and the message Paul used sets the order. You can believe what you want, but you cannot change the language to mean something else without error.


The Church will not go through the judgments that is brought upon those who dwell upon the earth because the Church will not be here.

True. We are not to suffer Wrath which is from God.

The Great Multitude is in the barn of Heaven BEFORE the Scroll with the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) is unsealed and the tares (the wicked left behind on the earth) are literally burned in the field (the first Trumpet burns a third of the earth).

__________________________________________

I am quite ready to discuss the sequence-of-events the Bible lays out for the Day of the Lord and I can give a reasonable timeline for them which is in accordance with the pattern set by the Festivals where the "Returning Anew" of Rosh ha-Shanah is the template.

Mark

topcat2
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:39 PM
I have been reading and re-reading Matt chapter 24..I have interpreted it
to understand that something happens when it talks about two will be in the field...one will be taken..the other left...to me that has to mean something..so I'm going to continue to study that chapter ..I see what a lot of people mean when they are describing the end times..I really want to understand, so I will keep on reading.

quiet dove
Feb 3rd 2009, 08:09 PM
The point is that Jesus told us the keystone passage which lets us know that His Return will not happen until other things have happened.

Paul never preached of an anytime-Rapture.



True. That's what Daniel 9:24-27 say, except it calls it the one 'seven' because it's not seven lunar years (Hebrew calendar) or seven solar years (Roman calendar) but a 'period of seven' in prophetic years of 360 days each.



False. One, the Great Tribulation is cut short, so saying it lasts the whole of the rest of the one 'seven' is not supported but refuted by no less an authority in the Bible than Jesus.

Two, the Great Tribulation is directed at the Elect by the anti-Christ.
The Time of Jacob's trouble is when Israel is dealt with by God.

They are not the same thing, but they both revolve around the Day of the Lord.
- The Great Tribulation comes immediately after the Great Tribulation (and effectively ends it in my opinion)
- The time of Jacob's trouble begins on the (second half of the) Day of the Lord when Jesus tramples out His Wrath upon the idolatry which is in Israel.



False. Not only will the anti-Christ wage war upon the Saints as foretold in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 for the (first) half of the one 'seven,' but Jesus said we would be handed over to be persecuted in the opening sequence-of-events in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24.

The reason for this is 2Co 12:9 - His power is made perfect in our weakness. We need Jesus - literally!

Moreover - as explained but ignored, Paul says that we are not taken up on the Day of the LORD UNTIL the man of lawlessness is revealed. This corresponds with the Olivet Discourse which sets the Rapture after the midpoint of the one 'seven.' Language means things and the message Paul used sets the order. You can believe what you want, but you cannot change the language to mean something else without error.



True. We are not to suffer Wrath which is from God.

The Great Multitude is in the barn of Heaven BEFORE the Scroll with the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) is unsealed and the tares (the wicked left behind on the earth) are literally burned in the field (the first Trumpet burns a third of the earth).

__________________________________________

I am quite ready to discuss the sequence-of-events the Bible lays out for the Day of the Lord and I can give a reasonable timeline for them which is in accordance with the pattern set by the Festivals where the "Returning Anew" of Rosh ha-Shanah is the template.

Mark

Mark, your true and false is a matter of your interpretation, and that is fine, however, those who disagree with you are not ignoring anything in scripture. Ignoring your interpretation does not equate to ignoring scritpure.

David Taylor
Feb 4th 2009, 01:45 PM
I have been reading and re-reading Matt chapter 24..I have interpreted it
to understand that something happens when it talks about two will be in the field...one will be taken..the other left...to me that has to mean something..so I'm going to continue to study that chapter ..I see what a lot of people mean when they are describing the end times..I really want to understand, so I will keep on reading.


Read Luke 17's parallel account.
Luke presents the same stuff, but in a different manner focusing on the parallelism of each event and showing in each case who is taken somewhere. By the time you finish Luke's account, it is much more clear than Matthew's presentation, on who is taken....and where they are taken.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body(carcass-4983) is, thither will the eagles(vultures) be gathered together.

Teleiosis
Feb 4th 2009, 02:59 PM
Mark, your true and false is a matter of your interpretation, and that is fine, however, those who disagree with you are not ignoring anything in scripture. Ignoring your interpretation does not equate to ignoring scritpure.

Okay... let me try again.

My heart's desire: The last 3 1/2 of which is the Great Trib...

Jesus said:

MT 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- ...21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. ...MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days

'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
Since Jesus is quoting Scripture here which identifies the Day of the Lord, we can know that Jesus is referencing a specific and unique sign. We can also correlate the sequence of events which lead up to this with other references to the Sun/moon/star event in Scripture, like the one in Revelation which happens at the breaking of the sixth Seal:

REV 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
So we can say that before this event in the Seal chronology that the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 has happened and the Great Tribulation has happened because no less an authority over heaven and earth than Jesus said it would. Sequence of events so far:

Midpoint abomination
Great Tribulation
Day of the Lord's Sun/moon/star event
Now in the Olivet Discourse after the Sun/moon/star event two things happen: the sign of Jesus appears in the sky and the Elect are gathered.

In the Seal chronology, two other things happen after the Sun/moon/star event: the sealing of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude show up in Heaven before God the Father.

Leaving the 144,000 aside, which happens to the Elect first - the gathering or the delivery?

Well as Jesus said in Matthew 13, the wheat is gathered up and delivered to the barn of Heaven.

SO! We can order the gathering of Mt 24 and the appearance of the Great Multitude of Rev 7 in this order

Midpoint Abomination
Great Tribulation
Sun/moon/star event (Day of the Lord)
Gathering of the Elect
Great Multitude in Heaven
And is there any confirmation of this? YES!

REV 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
REV 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The Elder referenced the same Great Tribulation that Jesus said came immediately before the Day of the Lord cuts it off.

Now what happens next?

The seventh Seal is broken by Jesus and FINALLY the Scroll can be opened!

And what goes out? Trumpet Judgments!

And how long do they take? Longer than five months (the first Woe alone).

Will God's Judgment be finished with the one 'seven?' Yes.

REV 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed

And on a wing (of the temple) he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
So we know that the Great Tribulation is cut short for the sake of the Elect and because we know that the Judgments of God take time - at least five months - because we can find language in the Bible which explicitly tells us that for a fact - The Great Tribulation CANNOT last the whole of the second half of the one 'seven.'

In fact, we can now order the general sequence-of-events like this:

Midpoint of the one 'seven' abomination
Great Tribulation
Day of the Lord
Gathering/Rapture of the Elect - delivery into Heaven Great Multitude
Wrath of God falls upon the earth
End of the one 'seven'
If I'm wrong about my interpretation, please sharpen me.

Mark

Adarian
Feb 4th 2009, 07:52 PM
Well, you will get MANY different answers on here. ;)

However, as far as the timeline in Rev. I see the rapture as taking place at the 6th seal...Rev. 6:12-17

Although the raptured is not directly mentioned there, it does fit with the signs in the sun, moon and stars as I can show in my blog which I will post in a minute.

However, we do see the RESULT of the rapture in Rev. 7:9-17. There is a multitude of saints in heaven so great in number and they have come out of the great tribulation.

This chart may help you understand the timeline. It is from a prewrath point of view and shows the timing of the rapture in relation to the seals and the 7 year period. The little yellow stars with numbers represents the seals in Revelation. Any questions, let me know.
http://www.solagroup.org/articlespix/charts/chart16.jpg

Here is my blog which supports my view of a pre-wrath rapture and shows how the rapture is linked with the signs in the sun, moon and stars, and thus would place it at the 6th seal of Revelation.

The Rapture of the Church


by "Truthinlove"
5/25/07


I believe Scripture clearly defines when the rapture will happen in relation to other end-time events. My desire is that instead of taking my word for it, this article would encourage you to compare the Scriptures to each other and pray and see if you come to the same conclusion.

The Bible tells us that we won't know the day or hour of the rapture (Matt. 24:36), but just a couple of verses earlier (vs. 32 &33), He teaches us that we can know the season.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 5:1-2 describes the rapture. "And now, dear brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died. I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet Him ahead of those who are still in their graves. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with Him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words. I really don't need to write to you about how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night." NLT

The last two sentences are in a new chapter, but we must read it in context because his thought continues on the same topic of the rapture. In the original text there were no chapter or verse breaks. He has not changed the subject. If you were to start in ch. 5 you would naturally ask "when will what happen"? And the answer is the rapture, because that is what he was just talking about!

Paul gives us a name in regards to the timing of the rapture, it is the Day of the Lord. Clearly the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord!! So, when does the day of the Lord begin?

Two very important Scriptures will help us out.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 says "And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet Him. Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed – the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the ....temple.. of ..God...., claiming that he himself is God." NLT

In other words, the day that Christ comes and gathers us (the rapture) at the beginning of the day of the Lord will not happen until after the antichrist defiles the temple, an event which clearly happens at the halfway point of the 7 year period. (Dan. 9:27).

Joel 2:31 gives us the signs that happen prior to the day of the Lord "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

So, now I would refer you back to the the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24.

Here again the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord...perfectly paralleling what Paul teaches in 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

We see the signs that announce the beginning of the day of the Lord, then we see the rapture. Notice the rapture and the day of the Lord will come after the midpoint when antichrist begins his persecution of the Jews and saints. Again, this parallels Paul's teaching about the rapture without contradiction.

I see these two texts as essential to knowing the timing of the rapture.

The Day of the Lord not a 24 hour day, it is a time period of unknown duration when God will pour out His judgment on the wicked during the 70th week. The Day of the Lord contains the wrath of God. Believers will not endure the wrath of God. (1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9, Romans 5:9)

In Revelation, the Day of the Lord begins in Rev. 8, after the signs in the sun, moon & stars and after the rapture of the saints which is shown as the great multitude in heaven having come out of the great tribulation. The rapture occurs at the 6th seal in Revelation. After the cosmic signs, but before the Day of the Lord.

In Luke 21:28 we are told "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" in relation to the signs in the sun, moon and stars, because the rapture will take place after those signs and then God's wrath will begin.

2 Thess. 1:6-8 says "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are given relief (raptured) from affliction (persecution by antichrist, aka - great tribulation) when Jesus comes, and then He will punish the wicked.

The days of the 2nd Coming are compared to the days of Noah and ..Lot.. (Matt. 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).
The righteous were rescued and the wicked destroyed on the same day. It will be "just the same" when Jesus returns. Also, the wicked mocked Noah for preparing and building the ark, but they were destroyed in the flood. It will be the same in the last days (2 Peter 3:3-4).

From the comparison of these Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that the rapture will happen at the 6th seal of Rev. sometime during the 2nd half of the 7 years, after the great tribulation by the antichrist. Then the wrath of God will be poured out in the Day of the Lord via the trumpet and bowl judgments.

Here is a sequence of Revelation that may help you understand while studying it. Again, people do disagree on this, but this is the most straight-forward way to read Revelation taking it at face value.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological, the book of Rev. is chronological too, but with ch. breaks to give more detail of events that will happen during the time period he already described.

Ch. 1 - Introduction to Revelation
Ch.'s 2 & 3 - Warnings to the churches
Ch.'s 4 & 5 - Into to the seals
Ch. 6 - The seals
Ch. 7 - Intro to the trumpets
Ch.'s 8 & 9 - Description of the trumpet judgments
Ch. 10 - Conclusion to seals & trumpets
Ch.'s 11, 12, 13, 14 - (Break in the chronological events to give more detailed info) Description of events that occur during the seals & trumpets
Ch. 15 - Intro to the bowl judgments
Ch. 16 - Bowl judgments
Ch.'s 17 & 18 - (Break in the chronological events to give additional info)
Description of the religious and political Babylon
Ch. 19 - Armageddon
Ch. 20 - Millennium
Ch. 21 - New heavens & earth, New Jerusalem described
Ch. 22 – Epilogue

The trumpets and/or bowls can not overlap or happen at the same time as the seals because of Rev. 7:3! This gives even more proof to the judgments being chronological. First the 7 seals, THEN the 7 trumpets, THEN the 7 bowls.

Rev. 7:3 "...saying 'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads."

The sealing happens after the opening of the 6th seal, but before the 7th.
The 1st trumpet burns up 1/3 of the grass and trees
The 2nd trumpet turns 1/3 of the sea to blood and 1/3 of the creatures die and ships destroyed
The 3rd trumpet makes 1/3 of the freshwater bitter
The 2nd bowl is sea becoming blood
The 3rd bowl turns the freshwater to blood

If the trumpets and bowls overlapped the seals, that would make Rev. 7:3 impossible because it says for the angels to wait and NOT harm the earth, sea or trees until the sealing of the 144,000. It can't be happing at the same time when the sealing has to precede it.

God bless you in your study of Revelation!

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near" Rev.1:3

Thank-you for this post. You are exactly correct. I feel, as do many others, that time may be shorter than we would like, so this understanding must be preached everywhere among believers, and quickly.

Teleiosis
Feb 4th 2009, 08:18 PM
Thanks for bringing this up again. I haven't been using Rev 7:3 as a conditional statement, but I will from now on.

I would add that the first four Seals closely correspond to what Jesus terms the "beginning of birth pains" and there is no consequence to the wicked at all in the opening of the fifth Seal.

It is beause of the correlation between the four horsemen and the beginning of birth pains that I place the start of the Seals outside the one 'seven' as I view that as the "birth" for the Millennium.

Mark

JesusReignsForever
Feb 5th 2009, 07:35 PM
Well, you will get MANY different answers on here. ;)

However, as far as the timeline in Rev. I see the rapture as taking place at the 6th seal...Rev. 6:12-17

Although the raptured is not directly mentioned there, it does fit with the signs in the sun, moon and stars as I can show in my blog which I will post in a minute.

However, we do see the RESULT of the rapture in Rev. 7:9-17. There is a multitude of saints in heaven so great in number and they have come out of the great tribulation.

This chart may help you understand the timeline. It is from a prewrath point of view and shows the timing of the rapture in relation to the seals and the 7 year period. The little yellow stars with numbers represents the seals in Revelation. Any questions, let me know.
http://www.solagroup.org/articlespix/charts/chart16.jpg

Here is my blog which supports my view of a pre-wrath rapture and shows how the rapture is linked with the signs in the sun, moon and stars, and thus would place it at the 6th seal of Revelation.

The Rapture of the Church


by "Truthinlove"
5/25/07


I believe Scripture clearly defines when the rapture will happen in relation to other end-time events. My desire is that instead of taking my word for it, this article would encourage you to compare the Scriptures to each other and pray and see if you come to the same conclusion.

The Bible tells us that we won't know the day or hour of the rapture (Matt. 24:36), but just a couple of verses earlier (vs. 32 &33), He teaches us that we can know the season.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 5:1-2 describes the rapture. "And now, dear brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died. I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet Him ahead of those who are still in their graves. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with Him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words. I really don't need to write to you about how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night." NLT

The last two sentences are in a new chapter, but we must read it in context because his thought continues on the same topic of the rapture. In the original text there were no chapter or verse breaks. He has not changed the subject. If you were to start in ch. 5 you would naturally ask "when will what happen"? And the answer is the rapture, because that is what he was just talking about!

Paul gives us a name in regards to the timing of the rapture, it is the Day of the Lord. Clearly the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord!! So, when does the day of the Lord begin?

Two very important Scriptures will help us out.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 says "And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet Him. Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed – the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the ....temple.. of ..God...., claiming that he himself is God." NLT

In other words, the day that Christ comes and gathers us (the rapture) at the beginning of the day of the Lord will not happen until after the antichrist defiles the temple, an event which clearly happens at the halfway point of the 7 year period. (Dan. 9:27).

Joel 2:31 gives us the signs that happen prior to the day of the Lord "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

So, now I would refer you back to the the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24.

Here again the rapture is tied together with the day of the Lord...perfectly paralleling what Paul teaches in 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

We see the signs that announce the beginning of the day of the Lord, then we see the rapture. Notice the rapture and the day of the Lord will come after the midpoint when antichrist begins his persecution of the Jews and saints. Again, this parallels Paul's teaching about the rapture without contradiction.

I see these two texts as essential to knowing the timing of the rapture.

The Day of the Lord not a 24 hour day, it is a time period of unknown duration when God will pour out His judgment on the wicked during the 70th week. The Day of the Lord contains the wrath of God. Believers will not endure the wrath of God. (1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9, Romans 5:9)

In Revelation, the Day of the Lord begins in Rev. 8, after the signs in the sun, moon & stars and after the rapture of the saints which is shown as the great multitude in heaven having come out of the great tribulation. The rapture occurs at the 6th seal in Revelation. After the cosmic signs, but before the Day of the Lord.

In Luke 21:28 we are told "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" in relation to the signs in the sun, moon and stars, because the rapture will take place after those signs and then God's wrath will begin.

2 Thess. 1:6-8 says "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are given relief (raptured) from affliction (persecution by antichrist, aka - great tribulation) when Jesus comes, and then He will punish the wicked.

The days of the 2nd Coming are compared to the days of Noah and ..Lot.. (Matt. 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).
The righteous were rescued and the wicked destroyed on the same day. It will be "just the same" when Jesus returns. Also, the wicked mocked Noah for preparing and building the ark, but they were destroyed in the flood. It will be the same in the last days (2 Peter 3:3-4).

From the comparison of these Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that the rapture will happen at the 6th seal of Rev. sometime during the 2nd half of the 7 years, after the great tribulation by the antichrist. Then the wrath of God will be poured out in the Day of the Lord via the trumpet and bowl judgments.

Here is a sequence of Revelation that may help you understand while studying it. Again, people do disagree on this, but this is the most straight-forward way to read Revelation taking it at face value.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological, the book of Rev. is chronological too, but with ch. breaks to give more detail of events that will happen during the time period he already described.

Ch. 1 - Introduction to Revelation
Ch.'s 2 & 3 - Warnings to the churches
Ch.'s 4 & 5 - Into to the seals
Ch. 6 - The seals
Ch. 7 - Intro to the trumpets
Ch.'s 8 & 9 - Description of the trumpet judgments
Ch. 10 - Conclusion to seals & trumpets
Ch.'s 11, 12, 13, 14 - (Break in the chronological events to give more detailed info) Description of events that occur during the seals & trumpets
Ch. 15 - Intro to the bowl judgments
Ch. 16 - Bowl judgments
Ch.'s 17 & 18 - (Break in the chronological events to give additional info)
Description of the religious and political Babylon
Ch. 19 - Armageddon
Ch. 20 - Millennium
Ch. 21 - New heavens & earth, New Jerusalem described
Ch. 22 – Epilogue

The trumpets and/or bowls can not overlap or happen at the same time as the seals because of Rev. 7:3! This gives even more proof to the judgments being chronological. First the 7 seals, THEN the 7 trumpets, THEN the 7 bowls.

Rev. 7:3 "...saying 'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads."

The sealing happens after the opening of the 6th seal, but before the 7th.
The 1st trumpet burns up 1/3 of the grass and trees
The 2nd trumpet turns 1/3 of the sea to blood and 1/3 of the creatures die and ships destroyed
The 3rd trumpet makes 1/3 of the freshwater bitter
The 2nd bowl is sea becoming blood
The 3rd bowl turns the freshwater to blood

If the trumpets and bowls overlapped the seals, that would make Rev. 7:3 impossible because it says for the angels to wait and NOT harm the earth, sea or trees until the sealing of the 144,000. It can't be happing at the same time when the sealing has to precede it.

God bless you in your study of Revelation!

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near" Rev.1:3



I finally got a chance to dig in and I agree with you completly thanks for posting...and giving me the extra scriptures to check out.

Truthinlove
Feb 6th 2009, 03:22 AM
Thank-you for this post. You are exactly correct. I feel, as do many others, that time may be shorter than we would like, so this understanding must be preached everywhere among believers, and quickly.


You're welcome :)
Yep, it sure seems it is coming soon!

Truthinlove
Feb 6th 2009, 03:23 AM
I finally got a chance to dig in and I agree with you completly thanks for posting...and giving me the extra scriptures to check out.

You're welcome! :)

Brian Lloyd
Feb 25th 2009, 08:53 AM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?

Muchas Gracias mi hermanos and hermanas en Christo.... a lil spanish kick for ya!! :lol:


Brian Lloyd:
Hello; My own take is as follows. However, keep studying the Bible yourself, for the Holy Spirit to speak to you!
A good Study Bible is "The Companion", as the Author was a Grk. and Hebrew scholar, Dr. Bullinger, and the OT was edited by a Christian Jew, and on his own notes as a Rabbinic scholar, Dr.David Ginsberg. It is based on the 1611 KJV

The Rapture, Those Taken, and Those Not. (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20Rapture,%20Those%20Taken,%20and%20Those%20No t..htm)

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 16th 2011, 12:10 AM
the tares are gathered first , those who believe satan/antiChrist great delusion and lie will be taken out of season , receive his mark by belief. the rapture is NOT true , or scriptural. the events described as the rapture are describing rev 19. Christ HIMSELF says HE returns after the tribulation Matt 24: (29), Luke 21, mark 13, paul also says it's the last trump thes 4:13-18, I cor 15:52-54,the elements melt and II peter, and ALL that are alive and remain till HE return are changed into spiritual bodies in the twinkling of an eye. II thes 2 paul also states Christ returns after antiChrist and the great falling away.

don't be fooled by false Christ into being harvested out of season.

glf
Sep 16th 2011, 02:54 AM
Mt 24:15 Then ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

2Thes2:2-9KJV That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth
that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Thes 2:7NAS For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Mt 16:18,19 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lk 10:19 Behold , I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Mt 24:24 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo , here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Lk21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Mt18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask , it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
 
Jesus gave the Church authority over all the power of the enemy, so that even the gates of hell shall not preveil against it. We see that the evil one reveals himself at the middle of the Great Tribulation at the abomination of desolation. The Church must be removed from the evil one's way for if the Church is still on the Earth, then when the evil one revelas himself, the prayer of faith will have authority over all his power or where two shall agree and ask in faith, it shall be done for them by the Father. The reason that it is not possible for false signs and wonders to deceive the elect, considering the immature state of many believers today, is that they will no longer be here. So that the Church will have to be caugth up into the air with those who are resurrected to be with the Lord forever, somewhat before the middle of the Great Tribulation. I suspect that the catching up will be the evil one's signal to reveal himself without being stopped by the Church.

Sadly, I should add here that after the abomination of desolation, the King of the North (Russia) in the land of Gog and Magog, will attack Israel and be destroyed by the King of the West (a multi-nation conglomerate, Europe) A little later, the King of the South (North Africa), will atack Israel and will also be stopped by Europe. Then, near the end of the Great Tribulation at the battle of Armagedon, the King of the East (China, who even now has a standing army of a million soldigers) will meet the King of the West at the valley of Hebron. My point is that when the burning mountain hits the Earth during the first half of the Great Tribulation, destroying one third of the world's population and one third of the world's ships and will polute one third of the world's rivers. This cannot come from the Kings of the North, South, East, or West as they will have to meet each other in battle. So when the burning Mountain hits, making many hearts to fail from fear, it will take out North and South America with a lot of coastal cities around the world aso being destroyed by a sunami aftermath of the meteor's impact. I imagine the impact will have to be in Central America to take out both contenents and will destroy the south's ability to produce food and then massive food shortages will turn the big city populations into canibals to survive. The fallout from this event, will polute the rivers of North and South America so that the full one third of the world's polulation will die. Remember, judgement begins with the house of God. 1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? If the US isn't the house of God, outwardly, in the world today, who is? btw... I suspect that the various artesian wells located across the country will become battle zones of the starving.

Greg

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 16th 2011, 03:22 AM
Christ returns AFTER the tribulation Luke 21,mark 13

Matt24
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


THE great tribulation

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

the days of the tribulation are shortened for the elect's sake, if they were raptured out why would the days of the tribulation be shorten for their sakes?

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

if Christians or the Church was removed then that leaves the unsaved, why would HE warn them not to believe false Christ and his ministers who can transform themselves into HIS ministers?

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


again if ANYBODY was raptured how could the elect be IN the tribulation, it doesn't add up.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

nothing secret about HIS second coming!

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

in rev 19 when Christ returns after the tribulation all flesh is destroyed and the fowls eat the flesh of kings etc

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Christ plainly says HE returns after this great tribulation like no other, How can there be a rapture as it would make this verse a lie which is impossible .

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 19

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

thes 4:13-18, I cor 15:52-54 we are all changed into spiritual bodies in the twinkling of an eye, the elements burn IIpeter


where does it say in the bible the church is removed? and in revelations what city is destroyed that is by the water has ports, and is the great economic center of the world? does NYC come to mind?:hmm:

glad4mercy
Sep 16th 2011, 04:32 AM
Sorry, I do not believe in the rapture...who would guide the new converts, or do you think it is too late then?

The 144,000, who many believe will be converted Jews.

By the way, Pre-tribbers do not equate the rapture, ( harpizo) with the second coming. In the second coming will return to the earth. In the harpizo He calls believers to meet Him in the clouds that they may from that point forward be forever with the Lord.

Christ descends from Heaven.
The Dead in Christ rise.
Those who are alive and remain are changed.
We are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Pre, Mid, post tribbers, and pre-wrath proponents agree with the four events above. The difference is whether or not Jesus, ( and us!) come to earth immedietely after the "harpizo", or if there is a period of time, ( short undetermined, 3.5 years, or 7 years), between the harpizo and the second coming.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 16th 2011, 06:18 AM
Christ was born once died once rose once and will return once

when:
Christ returns AFTER the great tribulation and after the antiChrist disguises himself and deceives many into thinking he to be Christ Matt 24 mark 13 and luke 21 I thess 4:13-18, II thes 2, cor 15:52-54

Christ returns at the last trump I thes says trump, IIthes and cor 15 says last trump

we will all meet Him in "air" is the word for "breath of life body" strong's concordance
paul tells us we have two bodies one physical flesh and another spirit
there will be a gathering together of the tares first (the unbelievers and believers who fall away) this gathering together happens when Christ said it would at His second coming which is fulfilled in rev 19

we know flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom

there are two white horse riders in revelations on the looks like the son of man and THE Son of Man

there is no 1/2 return or removal of the church, there are two harvests one of the tares the other of the wheat
Christ warns your flight be not in winter out of season parable of the fig tree, tares,chaff shaken fruit

if the elect would be almost fooled if possible how could that be if they were removed with the wheat, the harvests are at the same time , tares first , then the wheat

antiChrist comes as false Christ to lead many astray in the apostasy and is revealed when TRUE and JUST rides in rev 19

He who lets, holdeth is michael the archangel, he cast satan out of heaven and he and his angels who fight satan, he who goes against satan in jude and helps gabriel fight in daniel. some say it's the Holy Spirit but He is our comforter. when satan was told by Christ get thee behind me he was put into chains and can't come defacto or in his physical body anymore,he is behind God's throne and held by michael till he is told to step aside.

some say the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth but this is impossible as GOD can't be removed from anywhere HE is omnipresent.

nowhere in scripture does it say there is a rapture, there is a false Christ antiChrist (instead of) coming with great power who brings peace and prosperity and true Christ brings vengeance.

Desperaux
Sep 16th 2011, 06:47 AM
some say the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth but this is impossible as GOD can't be removed from anywhere HE is omnipresent.


Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and indwells the Body of Christ. Indeed, when the Church is removed, Holy Spirit goes with her.

John 8:32
Sep 19th 2011, 04:49 PM
some say the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth but this is impossible as GOD can't be removed from anywhere HE is omnipresent.

The AoD causes what? God removes His presence from the Holy Place because of an abominable practice that makes it desolate of His presence. God can choose to remove His presence.

Desperaux
Sep 19th 2011, 04:54 PM
Holy Spirit has not always been on the Earth. He only goes where God sends Him. His ministry on Earth began only 2000 years ago. It has an end date.

John 8:32
Sep 19th 2011, 04:54 PM
Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and indwells the Body of Christ. Indeed, when the Church is removed, Holy Spirit goes with her.

If they had not been keeping the Holydays and not keeping Pentecost and not been at that location, would they have received the Holy Spirit?

Desperaux
Sep 19th 2011, 04:55 PM
If they had not been keeping the Holydays and not keeping Pentecost and not been at that location, would they have received the Holy Spirit?

That question is moot. (There was no Pentecost to keep.) God directed the whole advent of Holy Spirit to occur at that time and in that circumstance.

John 8:32
Sep 19th 2011, 04:56 PM
That question is moot. There was no Pentecost to keep.God directed the whole advent of Holy Spirit to occur at that time and in that circumstance.

Do you think He does things randomly with no planning and thought?

Desperaux
Sep 19th 2011, 04:58 PM
Do you think He does things randomly with no planning and thought?

Do you?

Everything God does is according to plan. What does, "God directed the whole advent..." mean to you?

John 8:32
Sep 19th 2011, 05:20 PM
Do you?

Everything God does is according to plan. What does, "God directed the whole advent..." mean to you?

God reveals His plan and we are to rehearse it every week and every year. Six days (6000 yrs.) to labor (our works) and the Sabbath (Christ giving His rest) millenium.
The Holydays spell out each step in God's plan from His sacrifice that was from the foundation of the world, to the Last Great Day, when all are judged that have not had their chance yet.

Raybob
Sep 20th 2011, 11:52 AM
God reveals His plan and we are to rehearse it every week and every year. Six days (6000 yrs.) to labor (our works) and the Sabbath (Christ giving His rest) millenium.
The Holydays spell out each step in God's plan from His sacrifice that was from the foundation of the world, to the Last Great Day, when all are judged that have not had their chance yet.If that were true, and since the Hebrew year is now beginning 5772, then we would know this supposed future mill period would begin in 6000-5772=228 more years. I don't believe that at all. I don't believe in a future mill period. My hope is in the return of Jesus and living the rest of eternity on the new earth, not some temporal 1000 year period.

John 8:32
Sep 20th 2011, 12:44 PM
If that were true, and since the Hebrew year is now beginning 5772, then we would know this supposed future mill period would begin in 6000-5772=228 more years. I don't believe that at all. I don't believe in a future mill period. My hope is in the return of Jesus and living the rest of eternity on the new earth, not some temporal 1000 year period.

How many years have the Hebrews not counted in their calendar because of captivity and no king? Are you sure their calendar begins on the date of creation? The calendar calls the benchmark 3761BC. The problem with that is the benchmark begins with 1 day 23 hours and 204 parts, not 0, 0, 0. Hillel II himself knew when he published it that it was not the beginning, it was the beginning of the calendar.

So you do not believe...
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Raybob
Sep 20th 2011, 01:01 PM
How many years have the Hebrews not counted in their calendar because of captivity and no king? Are you sure their calendar begins on the date of creation? The calendar calls the benchmark 3761BC. The problem with that is the benchmark begins with 1 day 23 hours and 204 parts, not 0, 0, 0. Hillel II himself knew when he published it that it was not the beginning, it was the beginning of the calendar.
"The year number on the Jewish calendar represents the number of years since creation, calculated by adding up the ages of people in the Bible back to the time of creation." -http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm





So you do not believe...
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I believe Revelation 20 begins with the reigning of Christian souls, including those martyred. I believe the second coming is the later part of that chapter. I believe "thousand" in that passage simply means "many" such as the number of hills God owns cattle on.

For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
(Psa 50:10)


"Thousand" is NOT literal, or there's lots of cows God doesn't own.

John 8:32
Sep 20th 2011, 01:55 PM
"The year number on the Jewish calendar represents the number of years since creation, calculated by adding up the ages of people in the Bible back to the time of creation." -http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm


I believe Revelation 20 begins with the reigning of Christian souls, including those martyred. I believe the second coming is the later part of that chapter. I believe "thousand" in that passage simply means "many" such as the number of hills God owns cattle on.

For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
(Psa 50:10)


"Thousand" is NOT literal, or there's lots of cows God doesn't own.

And I believe cattle really means space shuttle, but that still does not cut any ice with God.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 24th 2011, 08:03 AM
In Eze 13 God condemns the false rapturist theory as false divination not of Him and He didn't call those false teachers and preachers. there is only one second coming and if someone's faith is so weak that satan can insert a half return how sad.
rapture is NOT scripture but satan uses it as a pretext to fool many ignorant people when he disguises himself as Christ. Christ said and paul said they would not have us ignorant.

Christ and Paul said He comes
after the antiChrist,
after the great falling away of weak Christians
after the tribulation
He brings BACK the saved dead
the saved dead resurrect at death
the unsaved will come out of the graves at true Christ's return
the TRUE church knows that satan is the father of cain and the kennites are the sons of satan who lie and say they are of our brethren Juda but do lie and are of the devil.
ALL are changed at the LAST trump ALL means ALL
EVERY eye shall see him

Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, I thess 4 13-18, II thess 2, I Cor 15:50-54, Rev 1:7

there are 2 white horse riders in the book of revelations...the first one IS the antiChrist.....DO NOT BE FOOLED!

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 24th 2011, 08:05 AM
the saved dead resurrect at death He then brings them BACK at HIS one and only second coming

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2011, 06:59 PM
The tares will be removed by the holy angels after the time of Satan has gone to the lake -to be burned. At that time, only the beast and the false prophet will have been cast into it. Once the sheep and goats get divided (among those that never died), the goats will be taken to be added to the lake of fire (burned). The sheep will get to inherit the kingdom - gaining eternal life. Later will come the new heaven and new earth, where will dwell righteousness and no more death, sorrow, pain or crying.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2011, 07:02 PM
To understand when the rapture is in relation to the trib, look at how Daniel 12 reveals that Daniel rises at the end of the days.

Desperaux
Sep 26th 2011, 07:26 PM
The tares will be removed by the holy angels after the time of Satan has gone to the lake -to be burned. At that time, only the beast and the false prophet will have been cast into it. Once the sheep and goats get divided (among those that never died), the goats will be taken to be added to the lake of fire (burned). The sheep will get to inherit the kingdom - gaining eternal life. Later will come the new heaven and new earth, where will dwell righteousness and no more death, sorrow, pain or crying.

You've gotten ahead of yourself...

Satan is not going to be cast into the LOF at that point.

The sheep get to inherit the Millennial Kingdom. Later, after Satan is released for a little while, they will stand before the GWT. Then the city of God, New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth.

Desperaux
Sep 26th 2011, 07:30 PM
And I believe cattle really means space shuttle, but that still does not cut any ice with God.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Faint/faint1-1.jpg

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2011, 11:36 PM
You've gotten ahead of yourself...

Satan is not going to be cast into the LOF at that point.

The sheep get to inherit the Millennial Kingdom. Later, after Satan is released for a little while, they will stand before the GWT. Then the city of God, New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth.

The sheep inherit the new earth kingdom. They aren't divided until after the 1000 years. Jesus sits to rule, and then after Satan is in the LOF, the people that remained alive are split up. At the time of the end of the world is when the goat people will be taken as tares to be burned. Both wheat and tares will grow together on the earth, until it is the end of this world. The reapers will be the angels.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 26th 2011, 11:38 PM
fell out of my chair laughing at that one...des

dan p
Oct 11th 2011, 12:07 AM
I wanted to re-read the book of Revelations and I was getting kinda condused on where the rapture should take place. It could be because the bible I'm reading is not my usual version and also I was at work so I really couldnt get into the Good Book like I wanted to. So can someone pin point where i should re-read?

Muchas Gracias mi hermanos and hermanas en Christo.... a lil spanish kick for ya!! :lol:


Hi , and the Departure/Rapture and timeline is mentioned in 2 verses that come to mind , 2 Thess 2:1-3 where APOSTASIA for fallling away is mis-understood and DOES NOT MEAN APOSTASY and Rom 11;25 says that Israel will be saved " that blindness in part is happenned to Israel , " until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in " and when that fulness happens and we are departed , then the 7 year Tribulation will kick in and then all Israel shall ( shall is in the future tense ) be saved , verse 26 , dan p