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keck553
Jan 29th 2009, 11:28 PM
As much value I think the thread on Godly fear had, I wanted to turn to another attribute we have in relationship with our Creator, Love.

We all have our own cultural identification or ideas about love. We are exposed to something called love constantly. Seemingly endless songs, movies and books have been produced on love's behalf. consider the movie 'Love Story' which proclaims "Love means never having to say you're sorry.' Or the sick euphamisms that equate love with all kinds of sexual deviancy. But how does God define love? That is what I would like to explore here.

Think about some things we love..."I love chocolate", I love my dog, job, etc...

So I want to start where I always start when studing the Bible - in the Hebrew, where every letter has meaning and every name has a purpose. The Hebrew word for love is 'ahav', spelled "alef-hay-bet." "Ahav" can be used to express all the sorts of love, from nobel to profane, and like in English, can be applied as 'Godly Love".

The first usage of "ahav" is in Genesis 22:2

(Gen 22:2) He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love (ahav), Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

Genesis 22:2 implies what Abraham loved. How did Abraham 'prove' his love?

(Gen 22:11) But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
(Gen 22:12) He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

The hebrew pictograph of "ahav" is interesting, because if we start with the hebrew word 'av' (father) and add the letter 'hay' in the middle, the word 'ahav' is formed (remembering the alef-bet has only consonants). The adding of the letter 'hay' which points the the Spirt if God, or the heart of the matter, demonstrates that love is the focus of the Father. The heart of the father is Love.

The first usage of 'ahav' in the context of loving God is found in Exodus 20:5-6:

(Exo 20:5) You are not to bow down to them or serve them; for I, Adonai your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
(Exo 20:6) but displaying grace to the thousandth generation of those who love (ahav) me and obey my mitzvot.

In reading Exodus 20:5-6, what does God link to loving Him?

Deuteronomy 11:1 has some things that are linked with the command to love God:

(Deu 11:1) "Therefore, you are to love Adonai your God and always obey his commission, regulations, rulings and mitzvot.

Now, go on to Proverbs and Hebrews and note the connection between reproof and love:

(Pro 3:12) for Adonai corrects those he loves like a father who delights in his son.

(Heb 12:6) FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

So, what are some things God loves?

(Psa 11:7) For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; The upright will behold His face.

(Psa 33:5) He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the lovingkindness of the LORD.

(Psa 37:28) For the LORD loves justice And does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off.

(Psa 87:2) The LORD loves the gates of Zion More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob.

The Greek word used in the Septuagint for Love comes from the word 'agapao'. This is the same word used for love in John 3:16

(Joh 3:16) "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Think about the relationship between John 3:16 and Genesis 2:22.

Many have said that 'agapao' is 'God's unconditional love for man." Is this supported in the Greek Apostolic Scriptures (NT)? For example, in Matthew 22:37 Yeshua quotes Deuteronomy 6:5. "Agapao" is used, but it is used as a command for us to love God, not the other way around. Read the following passages which use derivatives of the Greek word agapao. Note if there is a relationship between love and commands or obedience:

(Luk 7:41) "A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
(Luk 7:42) "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?"
(Luk 7:43) Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly."

(Joh 10:17)"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

(Joh 14:21) "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

(Joh 15:12) "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

(1Jn 4:21) And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Reading the verses below, what does God say we are to love?

(Deu 6:5) "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

(Psa 119:47) I shall delight in Your commandments, Which I love.

(Psa 119:97)מ(Mem) How I love your Torah! I meditate on it all day.

(Psa 119:159) See how I love your precepts, Adonai; in keeping with your grace, revive me.

(Mat 5:44) But I tell you, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!

(Mat 22:37) He told him, " 'You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.'
(Mat 22:38) This is the greatest and most important mitzvah.
(Mat 22:39) And a second is similar to it, 'You are to love your neighbor as yourself.'

(Joh 13:34) "I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.

(Joh 14:23) Yeshua answered him, "If someone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
(Joh 14:24) Someone who doesn't love me doesn't keep my words — and the word you are hearing is not my own but that of the Father who sent me.

1 John 2:15 tells us about something we are not to love.

In 1 John 4:16, we are told that God is love. This verse is used sometimes to water down the fact that God is Holy and expects His people to obey Him. It is even used by some to draw a line between "the God of the Old Testament" and the "God of the New Testament".

God has not changed. In fact some have also used Matthew 22:27-39 (pasted above) to create an idea that Yeshua instituted a 'new Law', the "Law of Love" which supersedes and replaces God's holy commandments to His people. No. Instead what Yeshua does is point to the fact that there is a connection between God's commandments and loving Him. The "Law of Love" has always been the summation of God's commands. If we do not want to obey Him, then we do not love Him. To God the greatest commandment is love, as we read in Deut 6:5. The second greatest command is to "love your neighbor as yourself." This is a quote from Leviticus 19:18. Love is the summation of all that God has commanded, right out of Torah passages. Love motivates our desire to obey Him. Love validates we are His children.

Now, if we love God, what will we do?

Vhayes
Jan 29th 2009, 11:34 PM
I'm getting ready to "leave" for the day, but I wanted to say, true love is not permissive love - that's nothing but sloppy agape. True love teaches, cherishes and always wants what is best for the beloved, even if it "hurts" a bit in the learning or gaining.

A parent who truly loves their child will not allow them to play with matches even though the child is certain his happiness lies with that book of matches. True love takes the matches away and patiently explains that the red and yellow blocks are far more fun and then shows WHY they are more fun.

Thanks, Keck, for starting a "love" thread.
V

keck553
Jan 30th 2009, 12:40 AM
Thanks for responding Vhayes.

'sloppy agape' - haha- I love it!

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 10:54 AM
Hi Keck. I "love" that passage about Abraham. It was his "only son" whom he loved too. And it was also the first mention of the word worship along with love.

Ever wonder why God loved Zion above all the dwelling places of Jacob? Zion was the area in Israel that was most fortified by the enemy. It was that area that even the lame and blind could defend it from the righteous.

There are areas in our life that the enemy had so overrun, his confidence in holding it was very high. This area, when taken from him and given to the Lord, is an area that he loves to dwell in. That place where we once served Satan is God's most favorite dwelling place in our hearts.

Also, I like the scripture that says God loved the rich young ruler. Even though the rich young ruler rejected Jesus, Jesus loved him.

keck553
Jan 30th 2009, 04:43 PM
Hi Keck. I "love" that passage about Abraham. It was his "only son" whom he loved too. And it was also the first mention of the word worship along with love.

Ever wonder why God loved Zion above all the dwelling places of Jacob? Zion was the area in Israel that was most fortified by the enemy. It was that area that even the lame and blind could defend it from the righteous.

There are areas in our life that the enemy had so overrun, his confidence in holding it was very high. This area, when taken from him and given to the Lord, is an area that he loves to dwell in. That place where we once served Satan is God's most favorite dwelling place in our hearts.

Also, I like the scripture that says God loved the rich young ruler. Even though the rich young ruler rejected Jesus, Jesus loved him.

Yes, Jesus did love him. It seems the rich guy was being selective in his obedience to God, but he wasn't able to totally surrender to the she'ma (first commandment). I think Jesus was very sad, maybe with the sadness He had when Adam disobeyed Him and He had to fashion clothes to cover him. I wonder how many people consider the tremendous heartbreak of God over a lost sheep and cry with Him. Yeshua was sobbing over Jerusalem after He rebuked the Torah teachers and Pharisees at the Temple. God has these emotions just as He gave them to us.

That makes it a little easier to understand why even the angels rejoice when a lost sheep is found. Imagine seeing the King of the Universe with a big 'ol smile.

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 04:55 PM
Yes, Jesus did love him. It seems the rich guy was being selective in his obedience to God, but he wasn't able to totally surrender to the she'ma (first commandment). I think Jesus was very sad, maybe with the sadness He had when Adam disobeyed Him and He had to fashion clothes to cover him. I wonder how many people consider the tremendous heartbreak of God over a lost sheep and cry with Him. Yeshua was sobbing over Jerusalem after He rebuked the Torah teachers and Pharisees at the Temple. God has these emotions just as He gave them to us.

That makes it a little easier to understand why even the angels rejoice when a lost sheep is found. Imagine seeing the King of the Universe with a big 'ol smile.

Excellent! God does have emotions. We often think of him as a Spirit but he says he also has a soul. I love that passage about him weeping over those whom he had just preached "woes" to. It shows his heart!

One reason I love that story about the rich young ruler... nothing that kid did changed Jesus love for him. Sometimes we think what we do will make him love us more or less but such is not the case.

keck553
Jan 30th 2009, 05:56 PM
One reason I love that story about the rich young ruler... nothing that kid did changed Jesus love for him. Sometimes we think what we do will make him love us more or less but such is not the case.

Been there, done that. Doesn't work as we think. Perhaps that's why we are so suprised when what we get is not what we expected.

Jesus is the embodiment of that. He's not what they expected.....I know I have kicked aside some awesome blessings in the same ignorance..

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 06:56 PM
Been there, done that. Doesn't work as we think. Perhaps that's why we are so suprised when what we get is not what we expected.

Jesus is the embodiment of that. He's not what they expected.....I know I have kicked aside some awesome blessings in the same ignorance..

Yea me too. God's been working with me on that sense I got saved. I got down a few weeks back and asked God to search my heart and see if there was any wicked way in me. I was going to make a list of all my sins and repent of them. I started writing them down and the Lord spoke and asked me "Did I tell you to write that one down?" No, he did not. Then he went on to speak to me about 2 sins he was concerned about at that moment in my heart. The first one was thinking I could perform for him in such a way as to earn his love. It seems that is one I will continue to work on even though I imagined differently. Thankfully, he does not leave us in that state. It was one of the first things he taught me however, it was something I needed to learn again.

mikebr
Jan 30th 2009, 08:13 PM
4God is patient, God is kind. God does not envy, He does not boast, He is not proud. 5God is not rude, He is not self-seeking, iHe is not easily angered, He keeps no record of wrongs. 6God does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7God always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8God never fails.

:ppThis is Godly Love:pp

keck553
Jan 30th 2009, 10:28 PM
Yea me too. God's been working with me on that sense I got saved. I got down a few weeks back and asked God to search my heart and see if there was any wicked way in me. I was going to make a list of all my sins and repent of them. I started writing them down and the Lord spoke and asked me "Did I tell you to write that one down?" No, he did not. Then he went on to speak to me about 2 sins he was concerned about at that moment in my heart. The first one was thinking I could perform for him in such a way as to earn his love. It seems that is one I will continue to work on even though I imagined differently. Thankfully, he does not leave us in that state. It was one of the first things he taught me however, it was something I needed to learn again.

(Mat 6:33) But seek first his Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Once I tried to attend to specific sins, one by one. I failed. Like Peter, I sank and flailed about in the current. Funny though how those sins seem to fall away when you put all your focus on Messiah.

There's a fine line between obeying Him and performing for Him. God wants that line in our hearts. That's the issue I think with our varying views on obeying God. If something is not in our heart, it's of no value to anyone.

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 11:24 PM
(Mat 6:33) But seek first his Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

I was reading that verse today.



Once I tried to attend to specific sins, one by one. I failed. Like Peter, I sank and flailed about in the current. Funny though how those sins seem to fall away when you put all your focus on Messiah.

There's a fine line between obeying Him and performing for Him. God wants that line in our hearts. That's the issue I think with our varying views on obeying God. If something is not in our heart, it's of no value to anyone.

Amen.

keck553
Jan 30th 2009, 11:41 PM
Have an awesome weekend Mark. Thanks for listening.

Friend of I AM
Jan 31st 2009, 03:08 PM
As much value I think the thread on Godly fear had, I wanted to turn to another attribute we have in relationship with our Creator, Love.

We all have our own cultural identification or ideas about love. We are exposed to something called love constantly. Seemingly endless songs, movies and books have been produced on love's behalf. consider the movie 'Love Story' which proclaims "Love means never having to say you're sorry.' Or the sick euphamisms that equate love with all kinds of sexual deviancy. But how does God define love? That is what I would like to explore here.

Think about some things we love..."I love chocolate", I love my dog, job, etc...

So I want to start where I always start when studing the Bible - in the Hebrew, where every letter has meaning and every name has a purpose. The Hebrew word for love is 'ahav', spelled "alef-hay-bet." "Ahav" can be used to express all the sorts of love, from nobel to profane, and like in English, can be applied as 'Godly Love".

The first usage of "ahav" is in Genesis 22:2

(Gen 22:2) He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love (ahav), Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

Genesis 22:2 implies what Abraham loved. How did Abraham 'prove' his love?

(Gen 22:11) But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
(Gen 22:12) He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

The hebrew pictograph of "ahav" is interesting, because if we start with the hebrew word 'av' (father) and add the letter 'hay' in the middle, the word 'ahav' is formed (remembering the alef-bet has only consonants). The adding of the letter 'hay' which points the the Spirt if God, or the heart of the matter, demonstrates that love is the focus of the Father. The heart of the father is Love.

The first usage of 'ahav' in the context of loving God is found in Exodus 20:5-6:

(Exo 20:5) You are not to bow down to them or serve them; for I, Adonai your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
(Exo 20:6) but displaying grace to the thousandth generation of those who love (ahav) me and obey my mitzvot.

In reading Exodus 20:5-6, what does God link to loving Him?

Deuteronomy 11:1 has some things that are linked with the command to love God:

(Deu 11:1) "Therefore, you are to love Adonai your God and always obey his commission, regulations, rulings and mitzvot.

Now, go on to Proverbs and Hebrews and note the connection between reproof and love:

(Pro 3:12) for Adonai corrects those he loves like a father who delights in his son.

(Heb 12:6) FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

So, what are some things God loves?

(Psa 11:7) For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; The upright will behold His face.

(Psa 33:5) He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the lovingkindness of the LORD.

(Psa 37:28) For the LORD loves justice And does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off.

(Psa 87:2) The LORD loves the gates of Zion More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob.

The Greek word used in the Septuagint for Love comes from the word 'agapao'. This is the same word used for love in John 3:16

(Joh 3:16) "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Think about the relationship between John 3:16 and Genesis 2:22.

Many have said that 'agapao' is 'God's unconditional love for man." Is this supported in the Greek Apostolic Scriptures (NT)? For example, in Matthew 22:37 Yeshua quotes Deuteronomy 6:5. "Agapao" is used, but it is used as a command for us to love God, not the other way around. Read the following passages which use derivatives of the Greek word agapao. Note if there is a relationship between love and commands or obedience:

(Luk 7:41) "A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
(Luk 7:42) "When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?"
(Luk 7:43) Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly."

(Joh 10:17)"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

(Joh 14:21) "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

(Joh 15:12) "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

(1Jn 4:21) And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Reading the verses below, what does God say we are to love?

(Deu 6:5) "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

(Psa 119:47) I shall delight in Your commandments, Which I love.

(Psa 119:97)מ(Mem) How I love your Torah! I meditate on it all day.

(Psa 119:159) See how I love your precepts, Adonai; in keeping with your grace, revive me.

(Mat 5:44) But I tell you, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!

(Mat 22:37) He told him, " 'You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.'
(Mat 22:38) This is the greatest and most important mitzvah.
(Mat 22:39) And a second is similar to it, 'You are to love your neighbor as yourself.'

(Joh 13:34) "I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.

(Joh 14:23) Yeshua answered him, "If someone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
(Joh 14:24) Someone who doesn't love me doesn't keep my words and the word you are hearing is not my own but that of the Father who sent me.

1 John 2:15 tells us about something we are not to love.

In 1 John 4:16, we are told that God is love. This verse is used sometimes to water down the fact that God is Holy and expects His people to obey Him. It is even used by some to draw a line between "the God of the Old Testament" and the "God of the New Testament".

God has not changed. In fact some have also used Matthew 22:27-39 (pasted above) to create an idea that Yeshua instituted a 'new Law', the "Law of Love" which supersedes and replaces God's holy commandments to His people. No. Instead what Yeshua does is point to the fact that there is a connection between God's commandments and loving Him. The "Law of Love" has always been the summation of God's commands. If we do not want to obey Him, then we do not love Him. To God the greatest commandment is love, as we read in Deut 6:5. The second greatest command is to "love your neighbor as yourself." This is a quote from Leviticus 19:18. Love is the summation of all that God has commanded, right out of Torah passages. Love motivates our desire to obey Him. Love validates we are His children.

Now, if we love God, what will we do?






Remember what Jesus stated to his disciples..

Luke 6:27-36

Love for Enemies

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

God's Love is demonstrative to all of his creations. We need to do our best to mimic this type of love in our walks, particularly to those whom we deem beneath us in regards to knowledge and understanding of the word.

God bless you much,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Jan 31st 2009, 03:44 PM
Just wanted to add that despite greek usage and versions of love listed above, nowhere in the bible does it specifically mention that God's love is perfected through fearing him. It does mention that in our earthly walk, we are to fear him though. Our obedience to him should not stem from fear of disobedience to his commands, but instead from loving his commands and having faith in them being righteous. David was stated to have been a man after God's own heart..and God's heart is not a heart of fear..it is a heart of mercy and love. We are to mimmic this type of love and pray that God gives us a heart like his in our walks.

Grace and peace to all,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2009, 03:48 PM
Just wanted to add that despite greek usage and versions of love listed above, nowhere in the bible does it specifically mention that God's love is perfected through fearing him. It does mention that in our earthly walk, we are to fear him though. Our obedience to him should not stem from fear of disobedience to his commands, but instead from loving his commands and having faith in them being righteous. David was stated to have been a man after God's own heart..and God's heart is not a heart of fear..it is a heart of mercy and love. We are to mimmic this type of love and pray that God gives us a heart like his in our walks.

Grace and peace to all,

Stephen

Are we back on that? One can't fear God properly until one has had improper fear casts from his heart through love. In that, I think we agree. Fear is not the motivator love is. Yet, it has it's place here on earth. David taught about good and proper fear in scripture and about bad and improper fear. He spoke of both in Psalms.

Anyway, let us love God with all our being and fear Him. Both are proper but love is the greatest.

Friend of I AM
Jan 31st 2009, 04:15 PM
Are we back on that? One can't fear God properly until one has had improper fear casts from his heart through love.

David feared God with fear and trembling and said we were to do the same. Fear does not push out love and mercy nor does love and mercy push out proper fear. Both are present.


Perfect love casts out fear Brother Mark. This is stated within scripture. Our hope is to at some point be like him when we see him, and have no fear within us. Everyone who has this faith in him in their walk purifies themselves, as he is pure.



Here is David speaking of a bad fear.
Ps 55:4-5

4 My heart is in anguish within me,
And the terrors of death have fallen upon me.
5 Fear and trembling come upon me;
And horror has overwhelmed me.
NASB

and he gives the answer to such fear in the same chapter.

Ps 55:16-18

16 As for me, I shall call upon God,
And the Lord will save me.

and

18 He will redeem my soul in peace from the battle which is against me,
For they are many who strive with me.
NASB


Here is David speaking of a good fear.

Ps 2:11

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
KJV

So we see that David, a man after God's own heart feared God and taught others to fear him. But he also recognized a bad fear and how to deal with it.

Isaiah 35:4
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

I think the biggest problem with your whole argument of "fear draws one closer to God" is simply that it doesn't exist anywhere within scripture.
Our hearts and the love we have for God should gradually be conforming to be entirely like his, not possessing any fear whatsoever in them. I have never known a person with a fearful heart to draw themselves closer to those that they fear, as fear generally demonstrates a lack of trust(faith) in the one whom they believe is going to help them. Usually fear causes people to find out ways to save themselves...instead of depending upon God.

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2009, 04:22 PM
Perfect love casts out fear Brother Mark. This is stated within scripture. Our hope is to at some point be like him when we see him, and have no fear within us. Everyone who has this faith in him in their walk purifies themselves, as he is pure.

Sigh. It cast out wrong fear not perfect fear. In the New Testament, Peter commands us to fear.

1 Peter 2:17
17 Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
NASB

Why would Peter, led by the Spirit, command us to do that which God was going to cast out?


Isaiah 35:4

Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

I think the biggest problem with your whole argument of "fear draws one closer to God" is simply that it doesn't exist anywhere within scripture.
Our hearts and the love we have for God should gradually be conforming to be entirely like his, not possessing any fear whatsoever in them. I have never known a person with a fearful heart to draw themselves closer to those that they fear, as fear generally demonstrates a lack of trust(faith) in the one whom they believe is going to help them. Usually fear causes people to find out ways to save themselves...instead of depending upon God.It exists throughout scripture Stephen! It brought Ninevah closer to God. The second generation of Israel after the 40 years in the wilderness took the promised land because they were not going to be like their fathers. David feared God properly.

There is a fear that we are to avoid like the plague. This is not the only OT verse that deals with bad fear. God even told Gideon to remove those who feared going to war. When we fear other things, we don't trust the Lord nor fear Him. When we fear God like a tyrant we don't fear correctly.

I can show command after command after command where we are told to fear God. But one thing is sure, until one loves properly and rest properly in Christ love, there will be little room for proper fear. One must learn of love before one can learn of proper fear. The fear I speak of creates boldness! It is not one of drawing back but of going forward. We speak of different fears. There is a fear that is empowering! It gives one great power to fear God properly. It keeps one from sin. We are commanded over and over to have it. But perfect love cast out the kind that will make us withdraw from God.

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 31st 2009, 04:46 PM
Sigh. It cast out wrong fear not perfect fear. In the New Testament, Peter commands us to fear.

1 Peter 2:17
17 Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
NASB

Why would Peter, led by the Spirit, command us to do that which God was going to cast out?


It exists throughout scripture Stephen! It brought Ninevah closer to God. The second generation of Israel after the 40 years in the wilderness took the promised land because they were not going to be like their fathers. David feared God properly.

There is a fear that we are to avoid like the plague. This is not the only OT verse that deals with bad fear. God even told Gideon to remove those who feared going to war. When we fear other things, we don't trust the Lord nor fear Him. When we fear God like a tyrant we don't fear correctly.

I can show command after command after command where we are told to fear God. But one thing is sure, until one loves properly and rest properly in Christ love, there will be little room for proper fear. One must learn of love before one can learn of proper fear. The fear I speak of creates boldness! It is not one of drawing back but of going forward. We speak of different fears. There is a fear that is empowering! It gives one great power to fear God properly. It keeps one from sin. We are commanded over and over to have it. But perfect love cast out the kind that will make us withdraw from God.

Does the perfection of God come from him being fearful Mark and having others fear him? When we see him and are perfected by him in our newfound bodies, will we be full of fear and love?

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2009, 05:07 PM
Does the perfection of God come from him being fearful Mark and having others fear him? When we see him and are perfected by him in our newfound bodies, will we be full of fear and love?

I have already said too much about fear in this thread. If you want to ask your question in another thread, I'll answer. But I think we have kind of hijacked the OP. But your question is a good one.

Blessings,

Mark

Dani H
Jan 31st 2009, 05:26 PM
1 Corinthians 13:

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

mikebr
Feb 1st 2009, 01:10 AM
4God is patient, God is kind. God does not envy, He does not boast, He is not proud. 5God is not rude, He is not self-seeking, iHe is not easily angered, He keeps no record of wrongs. 6God does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7God always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8God never fails.

:ppThis is Godly Love:pp



1 Corinthians 13:

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Maybe it'll take this time.

keck553
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:31 PM
Maybe it'll take this time.

My point is that Godly love isn't just a 'feeling'. It's a set of actions, defined by God that a believer walks in. Not just thoughts, but action items. God is a God of actions, not 'philosophy'.

Vhayes
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:43 PM
Can it not be both, Keck?

I can "do" all sorts of things and say it has been done out of "love" but that may or may not be the case. I think one has to first understand philosophically or spiritually what "love" is before they can act on it.

If I feed the hungry because I know it's what is expected of me and I anticipate rewards either here or in the hereafter, then it certainly wasn't done out of love for God or love for my fellow man - it was only done out of love for myself.

V

keck553
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:54 PM
Can it not be both, Keck?

I can "do" all sorts of things and say it has been done out of "love" but that may or may not be the case. I think one has to first understand philosophically or spiritually what "love" is before they can act on it.

If I feed the hungry because I know it's what is expected of me and I anticipate rewards either here or in the hereafter, then it certainly wasn't done out of love for God or love for my fellow man - it was only done out of love for myself.

V

Great question. But let me just ask this - one can reason in their mind and then take an action. But what profit would it be? There is one element missing that takes the 'doing' from a performance based action to a faith based action - a personal relationship with God. You can't just know 'of God', you have to know Him. You get to know Him the same way as any other relationship - by spending time with Him and responding to Him.

Once you know God you don't need to 'reason' things out to trust what He says.

I would rather spend time with God in relationship than trying to apply my limited thinking and reasoning to His standards. God tells us clearly what is love. Just trust what He says.

Vhayes
Feb 2nd 2009, 08:27 PM
Great question. But let me just ask this - one can reason in their mind and then take an action. But what profit would it be? There is one element missing that takes the 'doing' from a performance based action to a faith based action - a personal relationship with God. You can't just know 'of God', you have to know Him. You get to know Him the same way as any other relationship - by spending time with Him and responding to Him.

Once you know God you don't need to 'reason' things out to trust what He says.

I would rather spend time with God in relationship than trying to apply my limited thinking and reasoning to His standards. God tells us clearly what is love. Just trust what He says.
I think we're saying the same thing just in different ways.
V

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 2nd 2009, 08:39 PM
I would rather spend time with God in relationship than trying to apply my limited thinking and reasoning to His standards. God tells us clearly what is love. Just trust what He says.

Okay, but how can you have a relationship with someone..without at least having some sort of limited understanding and ability to reason with them? I imagine if one didn't have any understanding whatsoever of someone, then it would be kind of like they were talking to a rock..lol.

Edit: Joke mostly..think of God as a rock.

keck553
Feb 2nd 2009, 09:23 PM
I think we're saying the same thing just in different ways.
V

Works for me. :)

keck553
Feb 2nd 2009, 09:30 PM
Okay, but how can you have a relationship with someone..without at least having some sort of limited understanding and ability to reason with them? I imagine if one didn't have any understanding whatsoever of someone, then it would be kind of like they were talking to a rock..lol.

Edit: Joke mostly..think of God as a rock.

well, you know God does say this through a prophet....

(Isa 1:18) "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.

But it wasn't in the context of arguing over what God said was righteous. He prefaces the verse with;

(Isa 1:16) "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil,
(Isa 1:17) Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.

The God adds:

(Isa 1:19) "If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;


I think it's pretty clear what God requires. My limited ability to reason with God is on His terms. I don't know why that positional relationship would be an issue.

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 2nd 2009, 09:42 PM
I think it's pretty clear what God requires. My limited ability to reason with God is on His terms.


Sometimes it is, sometimes it isnt..lol. One thing I've learned in my walk is that God is a God that will demonstrate equal amounts of whatever it is we ask of him, when he represents himself to us. For example..if we demonstrate humility..he'll demonstrate the same level humility with us. Probably in a joking way to a degree, but none the less he generally meets men on their levels. Remember he speaks to us and teaches us with the foolishness of preaching....and humbled himself in the form of a man to teach us.

keck553
Feb 2nd 2009, 10:40 PM
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isnt..lol. One thing I've learned in my walk is that God is a God that will demonstrate equal amounts of whatever it is we ask of him, when he represents himself to us. For example..if we demonstrate humility..he'll demonstrate the same level humility with us. Probably in a joking way to a degree, but none the less he generally meets men on their levels. Remember he speaks to us and teaches us with the foolishness of preaching....and humbled himself in the form of a man to teach us.

Well, Biblically God does have a sense of humor...speaking of humility, if you remember in John 17,

(Joh 17:5) "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

It seems Jesus had left His 'glory-clothes' behind from the foundation of the earth. Personally I see Him all over the OT, making covenants, walking through fires, wrestling, etc. So, yeah, I agree.

However when He returns, I think He's going to bring His glory with Him, and when the Bible says 'every knee will bow', I don't think that will be voluntary for a lot of people. Even the most rebelliouos atheist will be humbled to the core of his being.

Dani H
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:54 PM
God so loved ... that He gave.

If we don't give, then we don't love.

:)

keck553
Feb 3rd 2009, 12:30 AM
God so loved ... that He gave.

If we don't give, then we don't love.

:)

Here is how the Son of God taught us to express Godly love:

Repent
Fear
Believe
Work
Rest
Build
Serve
Fast
Pray
Worship
Give
Teach
Treasure
Hear, Obey (do the will of the Father)

Love has many faces, many actions. These are but a few He taught us.

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 3rd 2009, 02:32 PM
Well, Biblically God does have a sense of humor...speaking of humility, if you remember in John 17,

(Joh 17:5) "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

It seems Jesus had left His 'glory-clothes' behind from the foundation of the earth. Personally I see Him all over the OT, making covenants, walking through fires, wrestling, etc. So, yeah, I agree.

However when He returns, I think He's going to bring His glory with Him, and when the Bible says 'every knee will bow', I don't think that will be voluntary for a lot of people. Even the most rebelliouos atheist will be humbled to the core of his being.



Well, I don't think Jesus was ever seeking glory, that would denote that he was full of pride...which we know that he wasn't. He was attributing the glory to his Father, just as the Father attributes his glory to the son.

John 7:18
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 7:38-39
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 8:50
And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

If you think about it really...God doesn't need anyone to glorify him. His glory was/given up so that he could demonstrate humility before us. It's kind of a joke in a sense that God would really even need anyone to glorify him in heaven or on earth..as his glory can really be seen throughout the entirety of creation. The universe itself demonstrates the glory of our creator.

keck553
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:39 PM
Well, I don't think Jesus was ever seeking glory, that would denote that he was full of pride...which we know that he wasn't. He was attributing the glory to his Father, just as the Father attributes his glory to the son.

Not the kind of glory you or I think about. An example of the glory of God is in Isaiah 6, or in Revelation. Clothed in His majesty, no one could have approached Jesus.


If you think about it really...God doesn't need anyone to glorify him. His glory was/given up so that he could demonstrate humility before us. It's kind of a joke in a sense that God would really even need anyone to glorify him in heaven or on earth..as his glory can really be seen throughout the entirety of creation. The universe itself demonstrates the glory of our creator.

You're correct. But I think the context of 'glory' in my post wasn't the same as the context you're speaking to.

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 3rd 2009, 05:11 PM
Not the kind of glory you or I think about. An example of the glory of God is in Isaiah 6, or in Revelation. Clothed in His majesty, no one could have approached Jesus.


You're correct. But I think the context of 'glory' in my post wasn't the same as the context you're speaking to.

We're getting a bit off-topic here, so I'm going to try to relate this back to the thread. I'm going to post the Isaiah 6 verse here you were referring to..in context..

Isaiah 6:3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Now remember we beheld the glory of God, in the form of a man.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now remember the whole glory of God is within the entirety of creation, his majesty isn't something that just resides in the heavens..but it's also something that includes the entire earth and universe. Heaven being his throne..and earth being his footstool. Remember, God is spirit..and those who truly worship him..worship him in spirit and in truth.

That being said the glory of God is within us, as we are also partakers of the divine glory through his son. We approach him with the same humility and grace that he would approach us with. Again God is not some prideful God, full of a lot of puffed up knowledge and majesty. He is approachable, and as we approach him we will be like him full of love, grace, and truth.