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forum lurker
Jan 30th 2009, 12:46 PM
Do the 7 trumpets & vials describe the same events?


7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

upon the earth

8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

upon the sea, sea became blood

10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

4And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

upon the rivers and fountains, affecting waters

12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

the sun is affected

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


the beast's empire and his followers troubled by a demonic disease

13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

at the river Euphrates - a great battle

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Takes place in heaven.

Would anyone agree / disagree, that they are the same?

vinsight4u8
Jan 30th 2009, 12:56 PM
They are not the same.
The vials happen after the Lord has returned from heaven - and they come in full measure.
Israel has to be freed before they begin.


Look too at 8:5 and Rev. 11:19.

DurbanDude
Jan 30th 2009, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the study, the similarities were fascinating to read.

I would like to agree,the simplest explanations are the best, so if these two sequences matched, then understanding them would be way easier.

The only hesitancys I have is as follows:

The first angels do not match.

The second angel affects a third of the sea in one case, and the whole sea in the other sequence.

The fourth angels differ in that the sun's light is reduced by a third, yet the angel with the vial causes the sun's strength to increase. I guess this could be possible that there could be some insulation heating effect caused by atmospheric dust after a disaster, but in the past I think that you lose heat in the atmospheric dust of a disaster.

So I'm not too sure here.

forum lurker
Jan 30th 2009, 03:04 PM
They are not the same.
The vials happen after the Lord has returned from heaven - and they come in full measure.
Israel has to be freed before they begin.


Look too at 8:5 and Rev. 11:19.

What do you think is important in Rev. 8:5? Also Rev 11:19, the ark of the covenant is revealed to John. Couldn't this mean that something has been finished, after the trumpets?


Thanks for the study, the similarities were fascinating to read.

I would like to agree,the simplest explanations are the best, so if these two sequences matched, then understanding them would be way easier.

The only hesitancys I have is as follows:

The first angels do not match.

The second angel affects a third of the sea in one case, and the whole sea in the other sequence.

The fourth angels differ in that the sun's light is reduced by a third, yet the angel with the vial causes the sun's strength to increase. I guess this could be possible that there could be some insulation heating effect caused by atmospheric dust after a disaster, but in the past I think that you lose heat in the atmospheric dust of a disaster.

So I'm not too sure here.

I agree that there are points that don't seem to match at the first glance.

The first angel: Something hits the earth. Could it be, that first John sees what this plague's effect is on trees and plants, and then on humans?

The second angel: What is the sea it speaks about?


37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
The Greek empire didn't rule all the earth. I think there are many examples in the Bible where the known world of that time, Israel and its' neighbors are referred to as 'the earth'. Likewise, when 'the sea' is mentioned, it is usually a refence to the Mediterranean sea.

It's possible that John wasn't even aware of seas existing beyond the Mediterranean sea, so he plainly calls the sea he sees a sea. Perhaps in the first vision he sees the Atlantic, and in the 2nd vision the Mediterranean sea. (that's my guess)

The fourth angel: One thing I've thought about is that if the earth's rotation speed were to increase enough, it could make the earth to recieve 1/3 less sunlight, but I have no clue what could happen in the sun for that to happen..

shepherdsword
Jan 30th 2009, 03:49 PM
Do the 7 trumpets & vials describe the same events?


There are some who think the key to revelation is Pharaoh's dream in Ge. 41:


And it came to pass at the end of two full years, that Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river.
2And, behold, there came up out of the river seven well favored kine and fatfleshed; and they fed in a meadow.
3And, behold, seven other kine came up after them out of the river, ill favored and leanfleshed; and stood by the other kine upon the brink of the river.
4And the ill favored and leanfleshed kine did eat up the seven well favored and fat kine. So Pharaoh awoke.
5And he slept and dreamed the second time: and, behold, seven ears of corn came up upon one stalk, rank and good.
6And, behold, seven thin ears and blasted with the east wind sprung up after them.
7And the seven thin ears devoured the seven rank and full ears. And Pharaoh awoke, and, behold, it was a dream.


They think that just as this dream repeats twice to tell of the same event so does revelation repeat. At the seventh trumpet the earth's kingdoms become the Lords,why would the seven vials be needed for further judgment? It's because the trumpets end the judgement but then the vision repeats itself.Just like Pharaoh's dream in Gen 41.

vinsight4u8
Jan 30th 2009, 06:11 PM
Hi forum lurker!

Your post:
What do you think is important in Rev. 8:5? Also Rev 11:19, the ark of the covenant is revealed to John. Couldn't this mean that something has been finished, after the trumpets?/


There is a verse, I think in Isaiah, that led me a while back to understanding that God has like a message part or so go out before the actual plagues begin. That message - as to thunderings and such ends with what the final plague part will be.
such as: Rev. 8:5 mentions at the end of it - "an earthquake"

The angel tells John in Rev. 11:13:
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."
(so the last plague is coming to pass when the 2 witnesses rise from the dead - making that the time of the third woe (7th trumpet).

third woe = the great earthqauke where men will give glory to God

-------
When I find the OT verse about how God like gives as list and then begins a punishment section, I'll post it.


--------Rev. 11 - gives us the list for the last set of seven plagues.
The temple opens in between the first set of seven and the last set of seven.

Rev. 11:19
"...thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
Next here in timing - would come the start of the plague set that will end with great hail.

Revelation is not laid out quite the way some people think.

Rev. 12 - should have brought the start of the seven vials of God's wrath -- if the chapters were all in order.


Another example of what happens as when seven get seen standing before the throne....
"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings, and voices...there were seven lamps..."


John was being shown that get that lightnings and thunderings type of situation and seven of something show up. If that lightnings and thunderings type of deal includes a plague, then know that is a key that a set of horrible plagues is about to begin and won't end till the time of whatever was listed happens.

vinsight4u8
Jan 30th 2009, 06:18 PM
Isaiah 29:6
"Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts wiith thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire."

vinsight4u8
Jan 30th 2009, 06:24 PM
Amos 1:6
"Thus saith the LORD...Gaza...I will not turn away [the punishment]..."

As if to show that a punishment time is due on their land some day - and when it comes God won't call back any of that time.

---------In the case of Israel - and Rev.
The seven thunders part was sealed up - not written down.
Why?
Because the LORD will call back some of the punishment time that was to come.


--------Deuteronomy 32:36
"For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself..."

Teleiosis
Jan 31st 2009, 01:38 AM
No, they are not the same.

A little side-by-side comparison:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Seal08a.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Tribulationperiod11b.jpg

I will point out that we get none of the detail of the third (and probably most terrible) Woe in the Seal account.

I think the Bowl Judgments a the parallel account to the Seal chronology of Rev 4-11 in chapters 13 through 16 inclusive detail the depth of God's Wrath against the wicked and the Bowls describe how "the end that is decreed is poured out on him" - Dan 9:27.

Mark

vinsight4u8
Jan 31st 2009, 04:28 AM
The third woe = the 7th trumpet
=the great earthquake hour of which the angel had already spoken about to John

forum lurker
Jan 31st 2009, 09:38 AM
Hi forum lurker!

Your post:
What do you think is important in Rev. 8:5? Also Rev 11:19, the ark of the covenant is revealed to John. Couldn't this mean that something has been finished, after the trumpets?/


There is a verse, I think in Isaiah, that led me a while back to understanding that God has like a message part or so go out before the actual plagues begin. That message - as to thunderings and such ends with what the final plague part will be.
such as: Rev. 8:5 mentions at the end of it - "an earthquake"

The angel tells John in Rev. 11:13:
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."
(so the last plague is coming to pass when the 2 witnesses rise from the dead - making that the time of the third woe (7th trumpet).


Hi vinsight,

I think you make a good point. However, I would still like to put these plagues together. Do you think these plagues are global or local?

To me it seems that could be one reason, why there are 2 visions. In the first vision John is shown the global effects of the plague, and in the 2nd vision local effects. That could also explain why the description (introduction) of the plagues is slightly different, to emphasize different things.

Also, in 11:18 18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

Have you thought about this? The time to judge the dead is after the last trumpet.

8:3 3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

15:8 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

I think this might be worth consideration also. Before the first trumpet, the incense was given to the first angel, but before the first vial, the temple is already filled with smoke, and there is no explanation where the smoke came from.

Teleiosis,

If the first vision of the plagues is global and the second local, wouldn't it possibly explain the differences? I would be interested if you have other reasons, why you think they are not the same. What's your take on Rev. 11:18?

Teleiosis
Jan 31st 2009, 11:56 AM
If the Bowl Judgments are local, how is it that the whole world, which comes under the domination of the anti-Christ at the end, isn't affected?

Making a way for the Kings of the East points to a historical lesson: the greatest strength of Babylon, her river, turned out to be her greatest weakness. The same thing could happen today to the "North." If the basis of the anti-Christ's control: information - were to "dry up" he'd be blinded and without the ability to marshal his forces where they are needed.

Rev 11:18 sums up the one 'seven.'

It has the essential sequence right: Rebellion then Wrath, and afterwards: Judgment.

We will be judged but not for our sins. Each of us will have to give an account of our lives. This parallels the unveiling of the bride in the Jewish wedding analogy to the end-times.

Likewise in the parallel account to the Seal chronology of Rev 4-11, we see in Rev 19:20 that those who destroyed the earth will be destroyed.

This does not invalidate the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium when the Sheep (of the Millennium) are separated from the Goats (from all time).

Mark

forum lurker
Jan 31st 2009, 01:12 PM
If the Bowl Judgments are local, how is it that the whole world, which comes under the domination of the anti-Christ at the end, isn't affected?

Making a way for the Kings of the East points to a historical lesson: the greatest strength of Babylon, her river, turned out to be her greatest weakness. The same thing could happen today to the "North." If the basis of the anti-Christ's control: information - were to "dry up" he'd be blinded and without the ability to marshal his forces where they are needed.

Perhaps my wording was poor, but I didn't mean that one of the judgements is global and the other one local. I meant that couldn't the judgements be in essence the same, but one vision of the event global, and the other one local, more accurate?

The 1st, 2nd and 4th "trumpet judgements" seem clearly to be devastating, yet it doesn't say how mankind is affected. In the description of the respective vial or bowl judgements, it seems to concentrate explicitly on how mankind is affected. Wouldn't this point to the direction, that the latter description's job is to give a little more detailed information, while the former is more a physical, global description?


Rev 11:18 sums up the one 'seven.'

It has the essential sequence right: Rebellion then Wrath, and afterwards: Judgment.

We will be judged but not for our sins. Each of us will have to give an account of our lives. This parallels the unveiling of the bride in the Jewish wedding analogy to the end-times.

Likewise in the parallel account to the Seal chronology of Rev 4-11, we see in Rev 19:20 that those who destroyed the earth will be destroyed.

This does not invalidate the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium when the Sheep (of the Millennium) are separated from the Goats (from all time).

Mark

Thanks for your thoughts. What I was getting at in 11:18, is that wouldn't it be contradicting, if there were still punishment to come after this? Why would the bowls be needed, when it's time to judge the dead? To me it seems that the bowls are already poured out..

DurbanDude
Jan 31st 2009, 07:32 PM
The fourth angel: One thing I've thought about is that if the earth's rotation speed were to increase enough, it could make the earth to recieve 1/3 less sunlight, but I have no clue what could happen in the sun for that to happen..

I've always related many of the trumpets/vials with either nuclear warheads or meteorite collisions. Either results in a dust cloud around earth if its disruptive enough. The dust cloud would explain why a third of light does not get through both during the day and during the night. History proves this dust cloud after huge natural disasters in both the ice core samples , and tree rings.

Teleiosis
Jan 31st 2009, 10:28 PM
Perhaps my wording was poor, but I didn't mean that one of the judgements is global and the other one local. I meant that couldn't the judgements be in essence the same, but one vision of the event global, and the other one local, more accurate?

The 1st, 2nd and 4th "trumpet judgements" seem clearly to be devastating, yet it doesn't say how mankind is affected. In the description of the respective vial or bowl judgements, it seems to concentrate explicitly on how mankind is affected. Wouldn't this point to the direction, that the latter description's job is to give a little more detailed information, while the former is more a physical, global description?

I see what you're saying; that the Bowl Judgments are from an observer-true point-of-view, and thus "local." However, I look at the overall nature of each set and other than the 2nd Trumpet/2nd Bowl there are enough difference between the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) that the Trumpets cannot have the effect described with the Bowls.

I look at the Trumpets in this way:

The first four work in thirds.
The last three are Woes and are whole and additionally:

We never find out about the third Woe in the Seal chronology of Rev 4-11
The Bowl Judgments are total.

Thus I think the Bowl Judgments are the third Woe, and as such show the depth of God's Wrath. While they replicate some of what has passed before, now it's total. While the earth could survive for a while and even recover somewhat from the first four Trumpets, (and indeed, I think they take some time too just as the first Woe takes five months) the wicked could not long stand some of the Bowl Judgments at all.

You can survive for a while without any water to drink, but add searing heat and your survivability diminishes greatly. Those conditions cannot go on for more than a couple to a few days.


Thanks for your thoughts. What I was getting at in 11:18, is that wouldn't it be contradicting, if there were still punishment to come after this? Why would the bowls be needed, when it's time to judge the dead? To me it seems that the bowls are already poured out..

I don't think it would necessarily be contradicting because, like you, I think that by the time Rev 11:18 comes to pass that all the Bowls have been poured out as part of the third Woe we never hear mentioned in detail in the Seal chronology of Revelation chapters 4 through 11 (exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and Two Witnesses in 11:1-13).

So the only Judgment after the one 'seven' is done is the eternal Judgment which is done in the spiritual realm of God's Temple when the wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire which is Hell.

After the one 'seven' is over at Armageddon, the anti-Christ and the false prophet are cast into Hell alive in their flesh.

After the Millennium, Satan is cast into Hell.

After that, the wicked are called out of Hades (and the Millennium righteous are called out of Paradise - Dan 12:2 / Mt 25:31-46 / John 5:28-29). The wicked are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment and then are thrown into Hell as well when they are not found in the Book of Life.

So the desolations God has decreed (which I think are written on the Scroll) are earthly Judgments; Hell is a spiritual and eternal Judgment.

Mark

forum lurker
Feb 1st 2009, 09:20 AM
I see what you're saying; that the Bowl Judgments are from an observer-true point-of-view, and thus "local." However, I look at the overall nature of each set and other than the 2nd Trumpet/2nd Bowl there are enough difference between the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) that the Trumpets cannot have the effect described with the Bowls.

I look at the Trumpets in this way:

The first four work in thirds.
The last three are Woes and are whole and additionally:

We never find out about the third Woe in the Seal chronology of Rev 4-11
The Bowl Judgments are total.



Thus I think the Bowl Judgments are the third Woe, and as such show the depth of God's Wrath. While they replicate some of what has passed before, now it's total. While the earth could survive for a while and even recover somewhat from the first four Trumpets, (and indeed, I think they take some time too just as the first Woe takes five months) the wicked could not long stand some of the Bowl Judgments at all.

I view the 5th trumpet/vial as the first woe, the 6th the second and the 7th as the third woe, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.


I don't think it would necessarily be contradicting because, like you, I think that by the time Rev 11:18 comes to pass that all the Bowls have been poured out as part of the third Woe we never hear mentioned in detail in the Seal chronology of Revelation chapters 4 through 11 (exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and Two Witnesses in 11:1-13).

So the only Judgment after the one 'seven' is done is the eternal Judgment which is done in the spiritual realm of God's Temple when the wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire which is Hell.

After the one 'seven' is over at Armageddon, the anti-Christ and the false prophet are cast into Hell alive in their flesh.

After the Millennium, Satan is cast into Hell.

After that, the wicked are called out of Hades (and the Millennium righteous are called out of Paradise - Dan 12:2 / Mt 25:31-46 / John 5:28-29). The wicked are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment and then are thrown into Hell as well when they are not found in the Book of Life.

So the desolations God has decreed (which I think are written on the Scroll) are earthly Judgments; Hell is a spiritual and eternal Judgment.

Mark

Ok, Thanks for clearing that up. (the judgement part).

I read a while ago someone criticizing the gospels, because of their differences. For us it's obvious, that they are different because different people see different things, and to understand it's necessary to try to picture what's really happening. Reading the text doesn't help, if you're not willing to picture yourself in the audience and fill the blanks when the story is a little bit different.

Some time after that it occured after reading about these trumpets and bowls, that maybe I had the same problem, that's why they seemed to be different despite the similarities.

What I was wondering, was if there were any other apparent conradictions than the quantities of the punishments, and to me there don't seem to be that many. I didn't expect to change anyone's mind.. ;)

forum lurker
Feb 1st 2009, 09:30 AM
I've always related many of the trumpets/vials with either nuclear warheads or meteorite collisions. Either results in a dust cloud around earth if its disruptive enough. The dust cloud would explain why a third of light does not get through both during the day and during the night. History proves this dust cloud after huge natural disasters in both the ice core samples , and tree rings.

I also used to think about a nuclear war being one of the vials, but since plagues are not from man, I've changed my mind. Not to say a nuclear wouldn't be possible..

The dust cloud, maybe. I read someone suggest, that if the earth's rotation speed was to increase, that would not only explain the earth recieving 1/3 less light, but also shortening the days, if that should be taken literally.

vinsight4u8
Feb 1st 2009, 01:11 PM
Rev. 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven,...seven angels having the seven last plagues..."

"for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

----------Okay, now, thinking on this for a bit - shows the 7 last or final plagues by the seven angels can't begin till the world gets to the point where God's wrath begins.



So - 7th trumpet
v 18
(Rev. 11)
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come..."

---------Till the endtimes get to the point of the 7th trumpet begins - God could not let the vials even start; for they are His wrath.

There are 7 first plagues (trumpets)
and 7 last plagues (His wrath)

It is impossible for the trumpets and the vials to occur at the same time.

vinsight4u8
Feb 1st 2009, 01:44 PM
The third woe was told by the angel as what?

Rev. 11
a great earthquake

the hour when the two witnesses rise from the dead
the comes quickly hour


All of the woes are to be under the time of Satan's wath.

Rev. 12:12
"...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath..."

8:13
"...Woe, woe, woe to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels which are yet to sound!."

--------------
Isaiah 58:1
"Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins."


--------------Isaiah 65:7
"...I will measure their former work into their bosom."



--------------Jeremiah 30:11
"...I will correct thee in measure..."


----------trumpet 1
third part of trees burned up

trumpet 2
third part of the sea became blood

and so on

forum lurker
Feb 1st 2009, 01:49 PM
Rev. 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven,...seven angels having the seven last plagues..."

"for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

----------Okay, now, thinking on this for a bit - shows the 7 last or final plagues by the seven angels can't begin till the world gets to the point where God's wrath begins.



So - 7th trumpet
v 18
(Rev. 11)
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come..."

---------Till the endtimes get to the point of the 7th trumpet begins - God could not let the vials even start; for they are His wrath.

There are 7 first plagues (trumpets)
and 7 last plagues (His wrath)

It is impossible for the trumpets and the vials to occur at the same time.

Are you suggesting the "is come" part in the verse is saying "is to come" ? That's just not the case. It is translated either "is came", "has come", or "came", but never "is to come" if I'm not mistaken.

I might have missed your point if that wasn't the point you were making, sorry about that in advance. ;)

vinsight4u8
Feb 1st 2009, 01:52 PM
Jeremiah 46:28
"...I will make a full end of all nations whither I have driven thee; but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished."


---------Psalm 73:10
"Therefore his people return hither: and waters of full cup are wrung out to them."

vinsight4u8
Feb 1st 2009, 01:56 PM
God's wrath is not beginning till it gets announced as time for it to start in the time of the 7th trumpet. He is even told to destroy "them which destroy the earth"


--------If God was the one wrecking the earth - God would be eliinated.

destroy them which destroy the earth

Is God the one that slew the two witnesses during the time of the 6th trumpet?

no

vinsight4u8
Feb 1st 2009, 01:59 PM
Joel 1:15
"Alas for the day!...and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."


--------Isaiah 13:9
"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh...he shall destroy the sinners..."

forum lurker
Feb 1st 2009, 07:16 PM
God's wrath is not beginning till it gets announced as time for it to start in the time of the 7th trumpet.

Just reading what it says. ;)



--------If God was the one wrecking the earth - God would be eliinated.

destroy them which destroy the earth

Is God the one that slew the two witnesses during the time of the 6th trumpet?

no

Don't the judgements after the trumpets destroy the earth as well?

I assume, that you are saying that God's wrath can't take place when the two witnesses are still around. Do you think it's useless to repent at that time?

I'd rather not turn this to another millennium mortals debate, but it's my belief is that the door to repent isn't closed till the last judgement is poured, and that is why these two witnesses will stand where they will, protected till they have finished their work.