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Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 01:57 PM
Some say this is not a scriptural principle. However, I think they protest too much. When one accepts Christ forgiveness, they no longer hold themselves accountable or in debt for the sins they committed. Perhaps some may say "You can't sin against yourself" but here is some scripture.

1 Cor 6:18
18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
NASB

It is possible to think or believe God has forgiven you, yet still hold your own sin to your own accounting. This happens because the mind has not been renewed. In the end it means we place ourselves in the seat of God.

The real sin is forgiving oneself when God has not! If God has not forgiven you then how in the world can you declare yourself forgiven by God or men? If God has forgiven you, then who are you to say you have not forgiven yourself?

Perhaps some have no need to forgive themselves. Good for you! Others, need to work out their salvation and come to grips with God's grace and forgiveness. In so doing, forgiving themselves for what they have done to themselves and others is an act of removing themselves from being their own idol. It is an act of completely accepting the idea that they should no longer hold themselves responsible for their sins.

There is growth in this matter. However, I will make a subtle point again. Some hold themselves accountable for their sins. When they fully and completely accept God's forgiveness of their sins and no longer hold themselves accountable, by default, they have forgiven themselves. It is one and the same. The danger is for those that think they can forgive themselves without experiencing Christ forgiveness. While they may get some emotional relief, their souls will be tormented in eternity.

9Marksfan
Jan 30th 2009, 02:13 PM
Some say this is not a scriptural principle.

Reporting for duty!


However, I think they protest too much. When one accepts Christ forgiveness, they no longer hold themselves accountable or in debt for the sins they committed.

But is this the same thing?


Perhaps some may say "You can't sin against yourself" but here is some scripture.

1 Cor 6:18
18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
NASB

Yes, but it's his BODY he's sinning against - not his "better self", which is what self-forgiveness feeds on - "I let myself down" etc. Loving self too m- you know, like Candi Staton's Young Hearts Run Free - one of the most tragic lyrics on self-worship and self-love that has ever been penned - and it's from 1976!!!!


It is possible to think or believe God has forgiven you, yet still hold your own sin to your own accounting.

Exactly - which is why it is ultimately a matter of unbelief.


This happens because the mind has not been renewed. In the end it means we place ourselves in the seat of God.

Could not agree more - but doesn't renewal of the mind start at conversion - part of the "all things becom(ing) new"?


The real sin is forgiving oneself when God has not!

Amen to that! That's the danger of making that the PRIME goal - the feeling of forgiving oneself is idolised rather than the reality of God having forgive us.


If God has not forgiven you then how in the world can you declare yourself forgiven by God or men? If God has forgiven you, then who are you to say you have not forgiven yourself?

Amen to both of these. I would go one step further and say "Who are you to say that you still NEED to forgive yourself?"


Perhaps some have no need to forgive themselves. Good for you! Others, need to work out their salvation and come to grips with God's grace and forgiveness.

Agreed.


In so doing, forgiving themselves for what they have done to themselves and others is an act of removing themselves from being their own idol.

Au contraire - I believe it is feeding the idol of self, which must die.


It is an act of completely accepting the idea that they should no longer hold themselves responsible for their sins.

Hmm - guilty of sins, yes - responsible - we're ALWAYS responsible for the way we live here and now and in the future - no?


There is growth in this matter. However, I will make a subtle point again. Some hold themselves accountable for their sins. When they fully and completely accept God's forgiveness of their sins and no longer hold themselves accountable, by default, they have forgiven themselves. It is one and the same.

I just don't see why we need to use this quite dangerous language that the world/New Agers use about forgiving ourselves - esp when the phrase - and the concept - is nowhere taught or exemplified (or even inferred) in the Bible. Do you have any verses/passages?


The danger is for those that think they can forgive themselves without experiencing Christ forgiveness. While they may get some emotional relief, their souls will be tormented in eternity.

Well on that we CAN agree! Which is why we need to point people away from the idea of forgiving themselve and to the cross, the only means by which God can forgive them - amen?

kangkongking
Jan 30th 2009, 02:39 PM
But no matter how people convince me that I should just forgive myself already, I just can't really get to make myself forgive myself. That sin I've committed is just too heavy that sometimes I don't think that maybe even God is has got to have second thoughts on forgiving me. Didn't mean to blaspheme. Just trying to give out clues on how heavy is really is. :cry:

JesusReignsForever
Jan 30th 2009, 02:45 PM
silly me I had the same verse....well great minds think alike. :) Its true and it is possible renewal of the mind..ah !!

9Marksfan
Jan 30th 2009, 03:08 PM
But no matter how people convince me that I should just forgive myself already, I just can't really get to make myself forgive myself. That sin I've committed is just too heavy that sometimes I don't think that maybe even God is has got to have second thoughts on forgiving me. Didn't mean to blaspheme. Just trying to give out clues on how heavy is really is. :cry:

Do you believe that Christ died for ALL sins on the cross, or just SOME?

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 03:36 PM
Reporting for duty!




But is this the same thing?Can't have one without the other.


Yes, but it's his BODY he's sinning against - not his "better self", which is what self-forgiveness feeds on - "I let myself down" etc. Loving self too m- you know, like Candi Staton's Young Hearts Run Free - one of the most tragic lyrics on self-worship and self-love that has ever been penned - and it's from 1976!!!!I know nothing of the song or of self worship of the world because frankly, I don't pay that much attention to them. However, scripture does say "love your neighbor as yourself". You cannot keep that command without self love.


Exactly - which is why it is ultimately a matter of unbelief.I don't think you understand. ;) It's not just unbelief but rather a judgment on one's self and a punishment of one's self. It is giving up the right to do both even if it's deserved.


Could not agree more - but doesn't renewal of the mind start at conversion - part of the "all things becom(ing) new"? Of course it does. But what does John say about children? Rejoice that your sins are forgiven! That's really all that a child need do, just rejoice over their sins being forgiven.


Amen to that! That's the danger of making that the PRIME goal - the feeling of forgiving oneself is idolised rather than the reality of God having forgive us.I see no one making self forgiveness a prime goal. The prime goal is to love God and our neighbor. But forgiving oneself is something that is beneficial.


Amen to both of these. I would go one step further and say "Who are you to say that you still NEED to forgive yourself?"The need is there when one still insists on being judge and jury. If one has sinned against his body, he needs to forgive himself as he is indebted to his body. When someone says they have forgiven themself, no need to make assumptions on what you THINK they might be talking about. Better to rejoice they are learning to love themself in a proper way so they can love others that way too. If a man doesn't forgive himself, he won't forgive others either for forgiveness is part of love.

[quote]Au contraire
- I believe it is feeding the idol of self, which must die.So, if we forgive our brother, does that make our brother an idol? Forgiving one's self is no more idolatrous than forgiving a brother.


Hmm - guilty of sins, yes - responsible - we're ALWAYS responsible for the way we live here and now and in the future - no?If I am forgiven, I am no longer held accountable to God for that which he no longer remembers.


I just don't see why we need to use this quite dangerous language that the world/New Agers use about forgiving ourselves - esp when the phrase - and the concept - is nowhere taught or exemplified (or even inferred) in the Bible. Do you have any verses/passages?Show me a verse that says one should not forgive himself.



Well on that we CAN agree! Which is why we need to point people away from the idea of forgiving themselve and to the cross, the only means by which God can forgive them - amen?Show me a verse that says a forgiven man should not forgive himself. There is a time to forgive oneself but that is only when one is forgiven by God, never before.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 30th 2009, 03:45 PM
The point is not in 'you' forgiving yourself.... it's 'knowing' and 'discerning' HE HAS FORGIVEN you.. thru the power of His Blood.. cleansing your conscious .. and when you 'KNOW' and 'DISCERN' this.. that He has 'forgiven you'..and this 'not you'.......yes even as a Christian when you make mistake.. this is what will set you free....

Condemnation is an enemy... and for those 'in Christ'.... there is NONE.. NONE WHATSOEVER... There is 'no condemnation' for those in Christ Jesus.. for when you Abide in Him... He is your Teacher, Advocate, and Sustainer... He is Your RIGHTEOUSNESS... He is your Helper... You are His.. and when the accuser comes prowling like a lion ready to heap condemnation upon codemnation upon you because of the mistake you made..

Jesus is standing beside you... telling you.. My child.. I have forgiven you..

when the accuser is trying to heap condemnation upon your soul and spirit and mind... bringing you down...

telling you God has abandoned you.. He doesnt love you anymore.. Your going to hell for that one mistake... Oh you better watch out.. God is going to strike you down .. for that stupid mistake you made.. which He hasnt forgiven you for....

WHEN HE HAS...... He has forgiven you .. not you forgiving yourself

Truth Sets you free... a place in which the accuser does not want you abiding.. He wants to draw you away from that.. make the focus of your walk on 'you'... when Its about God .. and its all about Him and what He has done...

My friends, we must turn from this 'man centered' theology and those things that revolve around it and turn back to God Centered Salvation and those things that are Truth.

My heart breaks for those who are 'trapped' in that cycle of condemnation.... trapped in that 'snare' of the devil... May God's Wisdom and Undertanding Illuminate your mind soul and spirit.. into seeing what Christ has done for you.. coming to grasp with the Reality of What A Great Salvation He has provided and Just how Powerful... Calvary Is... His Atoning Work on that tree... His Remdemption for you!

Benaiah
Jan 30th 2009, 03:55 PM
"Forgiving yourself". is a tenet of psychology not scripture. Scripture says your old man is dead and buried, psychology would have you dig him up and attempt to "heal" him.

But the scriptures forbid necromancy.

:lol:

keck553
Jan 30th 2009, 04:20 PM
Thank you for starting this thread Brother Mark. This certainly has been a major issue in my life.

I also know a lot of people carry the yoke of guilt for the actions of another or for what we were forced to do to protect our soul/spirit/physical selves from others. This is a heavy burden.

The reason why the yoke of Messiah is so light is that it is salted only with the Word of God, and not leavened with the burden of men. Once we come into His house and are freed from the yoke of men and sin, we truely are free. I know that sounds like a euphamism, and it's not as easy to attain as stated, but we do have an example, a human example to look to - Paul. If anyone had the yoke of man made religion, persecution, antagonism and tremendous guilt from being a persecutor layed on his shoulders, it was Paul. God didn't take all his antagonists away, or change his life to one of ease, but it's obvious by Paul's actions that His grace was sufficient.

God gave us many human examples, and even used the nation of Israel to teach us His character. To Soloman God gave much wisdom and insight, but to Paul also He gave wisdom and insight. Look how differently both used their gifts. I think when one truely understands the the depth of what God has to offer, then they truely understand why the Patriarchs, Servants of God, Prophets and Apostles of Messiah had a healthy fear of God. For me, I didn't learn to shed my guilt until I learned how to properly fear God.

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 04:28 PM
God gave us many human examples, and even used the nation of Israel to teach us His character. To Soloman God gave much wisdom and insight, but to Paul also He gave wisdom and insight. Look how differently both used their gifts. I think when one truely understands the the depth of what God has to offer, then they truely understand why the Patriarchs, Servants of God, Prophets and Apostles of Messiah had a healthy fear of God. For me, I didn't learn to shed my guilt until I learned how to properly fear God.

Amen. When I look back at what God taught me about forgiving myself, it had to do with fearing him. He literally asked me "Who do you think you are?" LOL! What a relief to experience his complete forgiveness and to know that I no longer needed to hold those things against me either.

Dani H
Jan 30th 2009, 04:45 PM
I can only forgive myself for those sins I've committed against myself. God is the one I sin against, so He can forgive me for those sins against Him. And when I transgress against another person, then I ought to also seek forgiveness from that person.

The only sin I see mentioned in Scripture that I can commit against myself is that of sexual sin, which I commit against my own body. Well, my body cannot extend forgiveness. So to me, it's still a matter of receiving forgiveness from God and then asking Him to heal my body from any effect of sin.

I also think that the "self-forgiveness" principle is really best expressed as
a) accepting God's forgiveness in its entirety and not holding something against ourselves that God has already forgiven us from; and
b) plain and simple loving ourselves and accepting ourselves for who we really are (frail human beings created by an incredible God) instead of holding some standard over our own heads that God never put there. We often try to live up to something we've fabricated in our own minds that God never told us to do. Then that's not a matter of self-forgiveness but releasing those standards and accepting God's instead. We don't get to define sin; God does. We don't get to define holiness; God does. We don't get to define any of those things that God has already laid out as what they are, but too often we set ourselves up as God and try to set our own standards for ourselves and others. That's the burdens of men that brother Keck speaks of above, and he is right. We're very adept at putting all sorts of burdens upon one another and ourselves that God never put there. Jesus' yoke is easy and light, because He helps us carry it as we follow Him and submit to Him.

Guilt is another animal. There is real guilt that comes about by sin, and when God forgives us, then that guilt and burden is gone. Then there is another aspect of guilt that the enemy loves to heap upon us, or we heap upon ourselves, by doing exactly what I said above, which is placing false standards upon ourselves and others. Guilt isn't a feeling; if it is, it's not of God. The guilt that comes from sin is an actual state of reality, which is removed by forgiveness and the blood of Jesus that removes our sin. The other guilt that lingers is something that ought to be resisted and discarded because it is not of God, but something the enemy uses to manipulate us and keep us in bondage.