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View Full Version : help!!!!!! not a debate thread only an informatiomal one please



Thaddaeus
Feb 1st 2009, 03:29 AM
does anyone know what scriptures people refer to when thay say that the office of an apostle is not for today's church?
not a debate thread only an informatiomal one please

ProjectPeter
Feb 1st 2009, 03:37 AM
There is no such passage in the Bible. ;)

Sirus
Feb 1st 2009, 03:50 AM
Maybe ask, where is scripture that says the 'office' is for post-twelve?

Benaiah
Feb 1st 2009, 04:10 AM
While I do not agree with the position these are the passages most often used to claim that the gifts, including prophet, apostle, etc has ceased.

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.


The claim is that the "perfect" that is referred to is the canon of scripture, and once the canon was complete these things ceased.

TEITZY
Feb 1st 2009, 04:37 AM
I think what they probably mean is that the foundational role (Eph 2:20, Rev 21:14) of 'The' Apostles is no longer required. The foundation of the Church was laid in Acts (primarily doctrine & church planting) and following generations of believers have built upon that foundation. The original Apostles (The 12, Paul, Barnabas, James the Lord's brother, & possibly Silas) were unique individuals with special giftings for a very specific task.

Many in the church today claim to be 'Apostles' in the same sense as Peter or Paul were Apostles but such claims are foolish and dangerous to say the least. The only foundation these modern day 'apostles' lay is one of false doctrine that undermines the true Apostles NT teaching and destroys the church. I don't have any problems with preachers/evangelists/missionaries/church planters referring to themselves as 'apostles' in the sense that they are sent by God to carry out a type of apostolic ministry, but if one goes beyond this and claims to hold the foundational Office of an Apostle identical to that of Peter or Paul, they are treading on very thin ice indeed. Of course such claims are nothing new (see 2 Cor 11:13-15; Rev 2:2).

Cheers
Leigh

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 04:41 AM
I was taught and always believed that one had to have seen and talked with Christ to be an apostle.

If it is in the Bible though, I cannot find it.

BroRog
Feb 1st 2009, 05:42 AM
I was taught and always believed that one had to have seen and talked with Christ to be an apostle.

If it is in the Bible though, I cannot find it.

Try the first chapter of Acts.

crossnote
Feb 1st 2009, 06:38 AM
Try the first chapter of Acts.

The requirement to replace Judas' Office of an Apostle.

So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us--one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection."
(Act 1:21-22).

This Office obviously no longer exists. If you are speaking of apostle in the general sense meaning 'sent one' then I think missionaries come closest to fitting the bill.

Thaddaeus
Feb 1st 2009, 07:11 AM
ok thanks for all the help

Kudo Shinichi
Feb 1st 2009, 12:46 PM
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=69&verse=25&version=31&context=verse

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 04:04 PM
The requirement to replace Judas' Office of an Apostle.

So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us--one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection."
(Act 1:21-22).

This Office obviously no longer exists. If you are speaking of apostle in the general sense meaning 'sent one' then I think missionaries come closest to fitting the bill.


So, how does Paul fit the bill?

Sirus
Feb 1st 2009, 05:38 PM
It doesn't. But man choosing an apostle? No. Praying, 'Lord show which of the two' and then casting lots is rather silly for choosing an apostle. No, that's not it.

For Paul it is being chosen to be an apostle, taught, and seen after the resurrection by Jesus as were the eleven. That fits Paul. I think we all know the scriptures concerning these for Paul.

Act 1:2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.
Act 1:3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

chad
Feb 1st 2009, 07:40 PM
This is an interesting question. One could say that there are only 12 apostles, those who were called and appointed by Christ Jesus.

(Mat 10:2 KJV) Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; (3) Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; (4) Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

They were chosen by Jesus amongst his disciples at that time.

(Luke 6:13 KJV) And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;


When Jesus had ascended to heaven, the apostles appointed other apostles. Matthias was chosen to replace Judas.

(Acts 1:26 KJV) And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Then Barnabas and Paul are appointed as Apostles.

(Acts 14:14 KJV) Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

I guess in this modern day, people who believe in apostleship could argue 1 Cor 12:28 as a reason for having apostles. If the church still exists today, then those positions appointed in the church shall still be there, including apostles.

I guess you could argue, If the modern church has prophets, teachers, healers, miracles and tongues, then why not apostles?

(1 Cor 12:28 NIV) And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Paul also speaks about false apostles in 2 Cor 11:13.

(2 Cor 11:13 KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Paul mentions the signs of an Apostle.

(2 Cor 12:12 KJV) Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

However in Revelation 21:14 it only mentions 12 apostles of the lamb, which were the foundations of the wall of the city.

(Rev 21:14 NIV) The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Sirus
Feb 1st 2009, 08:09 PM
This is an interesting question.
..............
.......

Then Barnabas and Paul are appointed as Apostles.

(Acts 14:14 KJV) Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Very interesting. I forgot about that verse.

Vhayes
Feb 1st 2009, 08:17 PM
So, how does Paul fit the bill?
Jesus hand picked the original twelve -
The remaining apostles chose Matthias -
I think Jesus had picked Paul just as He has the others - Paul "met" Him on the road to Damascus.
V

Psalms Fan
Feb 1st 2009, 08:19 PM
So, how does Paul fit the bill?

Although scripture doesn't explicately say this, I think that it could be taken to imply that it does; that Paul WAS there from the baptism of Jesus till that time, and witnessed all that He did.

Paul was a pharisee. He was trained by Gamaliel, who was part of the council in Jerusalem who put Christ to death. I think it could be reasonably assumed that Paul was part of that as well. When Jesus is preaching to the pharisees and denouncing their hypocrisy, I like to imagine Paul standing right there being preached to by Jesus, especially in Matthew 23.

So I think it very well may be that Paul was right there the whole time during Jesus' ministry, just on the wrong side of it.

Kudo Shinichi
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:40 AM
Jesus hand picked the original twelve -
The remaining apostles chose Matthias -
I think Jesus had picked Paul just as He has the others - Paul "met" Him on the road to Damascus.
V

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=9&version=31

Vhayes
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:43 AM
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=9&version=31
I take it you're agreeing with me? ;)
V

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:01 PM
While I do not agree with the position these are the passages most often used to claim that the gifts, including prophet, apostle, etc has ceased.

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.


The claim is that the "perfect" that is referred to is the canon of scripture, and once the canon was complete these things ceased.

I agree with this poster...

I have sat under teachings like this.. I never did agree with them...

I have been taught that 'when that which is perfect has come'.. then that which is in part will be done away..

That which is PERFECT is Jesus Himself.. when He returns physically and literally to rule this planet and the nations saved.. with a rod of iron...

When Jesus is here in PERSON.. on His Throne in Jerusalem... why would someobody need to prophesy? We'll have God in Person from Jerualsem to clear up anything and to answer any questions.. you will get the FINAL ANSWER' from Him.. if there arises questions... and to speak in tongues... when He is here in person.. you can talk to Him directly.. at His Throne... you will need not to speak to God in another tongue.. you can speak to Him directly to His face... there will be no more mystery as to who God really is.. and 'knowledge'... the earth shall be 'filled' with the knowledge of the LORD.. cause He shall rule and reign over it thru Christ.. literally and physically.. the fleshly wisdom and earthly widsom which James describes as 'devilish'.. will be done away with...