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copper25
Feb 1st 2009, 12:26 PM
Have we slipped into an age were people do not desire wisdom, where one in a thousand are interested because this world holds every type of false wisdom and only those led by God shall escape it, 1 John 5:5) “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” John 3:36) “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Now the question is what does it mean to believe in him because only they have eternal life, John 3:36) “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” and all others don’t qualify. So let us examine this

John 14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

As we can see, keeping his commandments corresponds directly with being loved by God and one showing their love for God. John 14:21) “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me” therefore those that keep not his commandments don’t love him
Who abides in the Vine, John 15:5) “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” 1 John 3:24) “And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

Notice how keeping his commandments corresponds directly with one abiding in him therefore those that are Christ, that dwell and abide in him keepeth his commandments. Now while we are not justified by works to establish our relationship God, how important is it to keep his commandments! Revelation 22:12) “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” Revelation 3:11) “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.” Now who gets the crown of life, they that keep his commandments. Why, because it is they that love him, James 1:12) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” Can one love God but not keep his commandments, I think not. John 10:35) “the scripture cannot be broken”.

Think about it, Matthew 24:12) “And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.” and what is love, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me”. 1 John 3:18) “My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.” Notice how this statement is a demand for action. James 1:12) “blessed is the man that endureth temptation”, isn’t that exactly what we would have to do in this sin filled and wicked world to keep God’s commandments, to honor the sacrifice of our Lord whom we love and obey, Revelation 14:12) “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Now considering the emphasis that is put on the ten commandments, what would think that one would not in any way have to uphold them now. Psalm 119:35) “Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.” Psalm 119:157) “Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.” That’s faith, keeping the commandments of God even when faced with adversity and this world is full of it just waiting for us to try and lure us away from being obedient to God.

The world is justified or has been offered a window to gain its relationship with God because 1 John 2:2) “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Now many believe, but how many obey and accept Christ Lordship and come to him in submissiveness? The (1 John 2:16) “lust of the flesh“, and the (1 John 2:16) “lust of the eyes”, and the (1 John 2:16) “pride of life” will all keep one from abiding in Christ whether it be because of idolism, which spiritual means touching any uncleanness or immorality, Isaiah 52:11) “Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.” or whether it be the snare of one’s own subjection to unrighteousness, sin, and iniquity, which is why many will hear, Matthew 7:23) “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:02 AM
Have we slipped into an age were people do not desire wisdom, where one in a thousand are interested because this world holds every type of false wisdom and only those led by God shall escape it, 1 John 5:5) “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” John 3:36) “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Now the question is what does it mean to believe in him because only they have eternal life, John 3:36) “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” and all others don’t qualify. So let us examine this

John 14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

As we can see, keeping his commandments corresponds directly with being loved by God and one showing their love for God. John 14:21) “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me” therefore those that keep not his commandments don’t love him
Who abides in the Vine, John 15:5) “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” 1 John 3:24) “And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

Notice how keeping his commandments corresponds directly with one abiding in him therefore those that are Christ, that dwell and abide in him keepeth his commandments. Now while we are not justified by works to establish our relationship God, how important is it to keep his commandments! Revelation 22:12) “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” Revelation 3:11) “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.” Now who gets the crown of life, they that keep his commandments. Why, because it is they that love him, James 1:12) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” Can one love God but not keep his commandments, I think not. John 10:35) “the scripture cannot be broken”.

Think about it, Matthew 24:12) “And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.” and what is love, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me”. 1 John 3:18) “My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.” Notice how this statement is a demand for action. James 1:12) “blessed is the man that endureth temptation”, isn’t that exactly what we would have to do in this sin filled and wicked world to keep God’s commandments, to honor the sacrifice of our Lord whom we love and obey, Revelation 14:12) “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Now considering the emphasis that is put on the ten commandments, what would think that one would not in any way have to uphold them now. Psalm 119:35) “Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.” Psalm 119:157) “Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.” That’s faith, keeping the commandments of God even when faced with adversity and this world is full of it just waiting for us to try and lure us away from being obedient to God.

The world is justified or has been offered a window to gain its relationship with God because 1 John 2:2) “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Now many believe, but how many obey and accept Christ Lordship and come to him in submissiveness? The (1 John 2:16) “lust of the flesh“, and the (1 John 2:16) “lust of the eyes”, and the (1 John 2:16) “pride of life” will all keep one from abiding in Christ whether it be because of idolism, which spiritual means touching any uncleanness or immorality, Isaiah 52:11) “Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.” or whether it be the snare of one’s own subjection to unrighteousness, sin, and iniquity, which is why many will hear, Matthew 7:23) “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Unless we keep the whole law, every commandment, every point, then we are guilty of sin, we are guilty of breaking every commandment.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Have you ever kept the whole law?

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 2nd 2009, 01:51 PM
Unless we keep the whole law, every commandment, every point, then we are guilty of sin, we are guilty of breaking every commandment.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Have you ever kept the whole law?

Firstfruits

Yes, FF, there are commandments -- even in the "NT"

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 01:57 PM
Yes, FF, there are commandments -- even in the "NT"

Blessings,
BHS

Are you saying that you have kept all that is written in the law, every commandment, every point? With regards to the scripture.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:45 PM
Are you saying that you have kept all that is written in the law, every commandment, every point? With regards to the scripture.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits



Are you saying it is error to love God? Is it an error to be honest? Is it an error to help the widow and orphan. Is it an error to not lie? etc.... etc...

One cannot do any of thse things without continuing in the law. Just because "James" quoted scripture does not mean he nullified the very scripture he quoted.

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


This is doctrine fluidity, not doctrine replacement.

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:58 PM
Are you saying it is error to love God? Is it an error to be honest? Is it an error to help the widow and orphan. Is it an error to not lie? etc.... etc...

One cannot do any of thse things without continuing in the law. Just because "James" quoted scripture does not mean he nullified the very scripture he quoted.

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


This is doctrine fluidity, not doctrine replacement.

It depend on what God says is perfect religion that we should follow and which law we are trying to follow.

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:34 PM
Have you ever kept the whole law?

Firstfruits

Apparantly these two did:

(Luk 1:5) In the days of Herod, King of Y'hudah, there was a cohen named Z'kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva.
(Luk 1:6) Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly.

Emanate
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:44 PM
It depend on what God says is perfect religion that we should follow and which law we are trying to follow.

Firstfruits


James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Exodus 22:22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;

24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Deuteronomy
10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

16:11 And thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the LORD thy God

16:14 And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates.

24:19 When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
20 When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
21 When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them.

27:19 Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Again: James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

To what Law is James referring? Why would someone believe that the Law of Messiah and the Law of YHWH would differ?

BHS
Feb 3rd 2009, 01:27 AM
Are you saying that you have kept all that is written in the law, every commandment, every point? With regards to the scripture.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits



Of course not. Keeping the "law" as God meant for it to be kept, however, (and not perfectly as many believe), was not impossible. There are also commandments in the "NT" and the OP only mentioned 3 verses from the Tanach, neither of which came from the Torah, so it seemed your comment came from left field.

I find it amusing that James is used to backlash the Torah when it is obvious to those who are familiar with the Torah that he was very Torah-minded.

My concern is that in continually undermining the Torah, we also undermine the importance of being obedient to the Lord's commandments that we find throughout the Scripture. We must not lose the importance of being obedient to His commandments. Proverbs is full of instructions and in keeping them, we find wisdom. God truly showed His wisdom within the commandments He gave. They were designed by God so that in following His commandments we are a light to an unbelieving world of Who He is.

Blessings,
BHS

copper25
Feb 3rd 2009, 03:50 AM
Now think about it, Jesus died and gave his life for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21) "God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us" and to set us free from the curse of the law, but did you consider that the ten commandments were not destroyed but rather enforced and got strengthened in the new testament. Think about it, now in today's corrupt society how many things could contribute to idolism? Any willful choosing on one's part to submit themselves to unrighteousness can result in idolism, emphasized. The lord said Matthew 5:28) "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." emphasized, “thou shalt not commit adultery“. 1 John 3:15) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." emphasized.
The ten commandments did not fade away neither did the standards God had for his people in regards to sinning presumptuously which is equated to despising the word.

Proverbs 13:13) "Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed"

It is presumptuous sin, willful transgression against the law, willful offense to God that will keep one under bondage to sin else

2 John 1:9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

would mean that no one would every make it to heaven. The righteous shall live by faith but certainly will not willfully run off sinning!

livingwaters
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:25 AM
Matthew 5:17,18, 19
Jesus said HE did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it. The Word also says: one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Then it says that whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

I think Jesus wants us to live in HIS righteousness..HE knew we would need HIS forgiveness, but HE also said, grace is not a license to sin...I see and hear soooo many Christians say, we are saved by grace and then just go right out and sin, sin, sin, and then say, oh well, all I have to do is ask for forgiveness...this is the very same attitude that the Word says, "God forbid" when one sins as having a license to do so....I think Christians can do a lot better than they do....myself included...Too many excuses and twisting of the scripture. That is my opinion. Jesus said if we kept the two commandments HE gave us, that would cover the ten that God gave plus some...ex: lusting is adultery, not just getting caught in it; hate is murder, not just killing someone. :pray:

Oma
Feb 3rd 2009, 06:02 AM
I think there is so much confusion about how the law relates to a Christian because we do not see that the law has nothing to do with how we are saved. The law is our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ Gal.3:24 We can not be saved by law keeping, that is only by faith in what Christ has done. However the faith that saves is not a faith that is alone but is accompanied by works as the epistile of James makes clear. So we are saved by grace through faith alone, but we keep the commandments because we love God.
Had the churches in the last 60 years or so faithfully taught that the ten commandments are a rule of life for everybody perhaps we would not be in such a moral decay as we are today.

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 09:18 AM
Apparantly these two did:

(Luk 1:5) In the days of Herod, King of Y'hudah, there was a cohen named Z'kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva.
(Luk 1:6) Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly.

When it comes to the law that they kept "Mosaic" how many of us can say we have done the same? knowing that by offending in one point we are guilty of breaking the whole law "Mosaic"

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 3rd 2009, 11:59 AM
FF, What James is saying is that anyone who transgresses a commandment of God sins. And sin requires mercy. By the same token, if any believer were to sin, in God's eyes, he is a sinner in need of redemption. Doesn't matter which sin, he might as well have broken them all, because without God's grace He cannot be saved. James is about doing the right thing.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 02:05 PM
Of course not. Keeping the "law" as God meant for it to be kept, however, (and not perfectly as many believe), was not impossible. There are also commandments in the "NT" and the OP only mentioned 3 verses from the Tanach, neither of which came from the Torah, so it seemed your comment came from left field.

I find it amusing that James is used to backlash the Torah when it is obvious to those who are familiar with the Torah that he was very Torah-minded.

My concern is that in continually undermining the Torah, we also undermine the importance of being obedient to the Lord's commandments that we find throughout the Scripture. We must not lose the importance of being obedient to His commandments. Proverbs is full of instructions and in keeping them, we find wisdom. God truly showed His wisdom within the commandments He gave. They were designed by God so that in following His commandments we are a light to an unbelieving world of Who He is.

Blessings,
BHS

If the scripture used is not valid regarding whether or not the law is followed as given then why has it been given, is that not what God said from the begining?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deut 5:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.

Deut 6:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Deut 12:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

What is written in James that does not agree with what God has said?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 3rd 2009, 02:23 PM
When it comes to the law that they kept "Mosaic" how many of us can say we have done the same? knowing that by offending in one point we are guilty of breaking the whole law "Mosaic"

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

God bless you!

Firstfruits



Issue addressed in post #8

Did Moses give the "Mosaic" law, or was he speaking for God?

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 03:41 PM
Issue addressed in post #8

Did Moses give the "Mosaic" law, or was he speaking for God?

Since the law being spoken of is the law of God as given to Moses then it means that if not fully kept then by keeping some and not all we are automaticaly guilty of breaking all, as it is written.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

What therefore is the perfect law of liberty that we are told that we should continue in that would not cause us to be guilty of sin by doing so?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

copper25
Feb 3rd 2009, 03:53 PM
So are you saying that one should still sacrifice sheep even though the Lord was our sacrifice. Look at the Book of Hebrews, it will clarify this ordeal, from what it sounds like you are trying to put the Christian right back under the law, thus undermining the sacrifice of our Lord!

1 Corinthians 15:56) "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

1 Corinthians 15:57) "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

By trying to do all those ordinances, one is missing the freedom of the new covenant.

Remember, under two or three witnesses was one killed

but that harshness we are freed from

How many American’s keep up with the Law of the Torah?

Are you saying that every American is damned because they obey not the Torah, not the ordinance, the hand writing that Christ died for, sacrificing his life for, to set us free from? If so you err greatly. BE CARFUL!

Emanate
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:00 PM
Since the law being spoken of is the law of God as given to Moses then it means that if not fully kept then by keeping some and not all we are automaticaly guilty of breaking all, as it is written.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

What therefore is the perfect law of liberty that we are told that we should continue in that would not cause us to be guilty of sin by doing so?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

The law is liberty under Messiah

Emanate
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:04 PM
So are you saying that one should still sacrifice sheep even though the Lord was our sacrifice. Look at the Book of Hebrews, it will clarify this ordeal, from what it sounds like you are trying to put the Christian right back under the law, thus undermining the sacrifice of our Lord!

1 Corinthians 15:56) "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

1 Corinthians 15:57) "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

By trying to do all those ordinances, one is missing the freedom of the new covenant.

Remember, under two or three witnesses was one killed

but that harshness we are freed from

How many American’s keep up with the Law of the Torah?

Are you saying that every American is damned because they obey not the Torah, not the ordinance, the hand writing that Christ died for, sacrificing his life for, to set us free from? If so you err greatly. BE CARFUL!


Torah was never given to America. God was never in covenant with America.

I hardly see love or joy to be very harsh. Sure, justice can be harsh, but that does not mean it is to be thrown out completely.

Side note: there was never a sheep sacrificed for sin in Torah.

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:46 PM
The law is liberty under Messiah

What does liberty under Messiah mean regarding the Mosaic law?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:48 PM
So are you saying that one should still sacrifice sheep even though the Lord was our sacrifice. Look at the Book of Hebrews, it will clarify this ordeal, from what it sounds like you are trying to put the Christian right back under the law, thus undermining the sacrifice of our Lord!

1 Corinthians 15:56) "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

1 Corinthians 15:57) "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

By trying to do all those ordinances, one is missing the freedom of the new covenant.

Remember, under two or three witnesses was one killed

but that harshness we are freed from

How many American’s keep up with the Law of the Torah?

Are you saying that every American is damned because they obey not the Torah, not the ordinance, the hand writing that Christ died for, sacrificing his life for, to set us free from? If so you err greatly. BE CARFUL!

With regards to the following would you say that there were two laws being spoken of?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

What therefore is the perfect law of liberty that we are told that we should continue in that would not cause us to be guilty of sin by doing so?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:48 PM
What does liberty under Messiah mean regarding the Mosaic law?

Firstfruits


It means we can freely delight in the one law, We can live in the love outlined in the one law.

That question is not easily answered. It is similar to asking what is good about plants?

How do I love thee, let me count the ways. One, two, three....

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:58 PM
It means we can freely delight in the one law, We can live in the love outlined in the one law.

That question is not easily answered. It is similar to asking what is good about plants?

How do I love thee, let me count the ways. One, two, three....

So to fail to keep all that God has commanded means that we we not love God when we apply the scripture since we are guilty of every sin?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

We cannot say we love God and yet offend him by failing to do his will.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 3rd 2009, 05:41 PM
So to fail to keep all that God has commanded means that we we not love God when we apply the scripture since we are guilty of every sin?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

We cannot say we love God and yet offend him by failing to do his will.

Firstfruits


I assumed that all on this thread were saved by the death burial and resurrection of Messiah. Perhaps I was wrong. I will from now on not try to love God or my neighbor until I have reached the state of perfection.
:confused

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 06:49 PM
I assumed that all on this thread were saved by the death burial and resurrection of Messiah. Perhaps I was wrong. I will from now on not try to love God or my neighbor until I have reached the state of perfection.
:confused

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Is there not a difference between keeping the law of liberty and the Mosaic law, with regards to love fulfills the law of liberty, but the Mosaic law demands that all that is contained therein must be kept and not offended in any point?

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 3rd 2009, 08:51 PM
If the scripture used is not valid regarding whether or not the law is followed as given then why has it been given, is that not what God said from the begining?

Your question is hard to understand, but I think the answer is God never required perfect obedience.




What is written in James that does not agree with what God has said?


Of course God wrote it all so there is no contradiction. However, you use the scriptures for your own purpose.

Revelation says the same thing -- Revelation 22:18-19

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. "

or how about Proverbs 30:5-6

"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. 6 Do not add to His words Lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar. "

Blessings,
BHS

copper25
Feb 3rd 2009, 09:06 PM
Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Is there not a difference between keeping the law of liberty and the Mosaic law, with regards to love fulfills the law of liberty, but the Mosaic law demands that all that is contained therein must be kept and not offended in any point?

Firstfruits

I am curious how you would analyze this specific verse

Revelation 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And out of curiosity how do you view this verse?

Colossians 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

Now is God a favor of persons? I think not.

So while James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.is true

Christ has nullified the Law which was a snare, think about it.

Would the writing be nullified for one group of people and not the other? I think not

The commandments specified in Revelation were referring specifically to the Ten commandments, as well as many other places in the new testament

Remember when Jesus saying specifically Mark 10:19) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

to the man asking Mark 10:17) "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

Notice as I say he was specifically referring to the Ten commandments and look at this verse

Deuteronomy 4:13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

And they are

Deuteronomy 5)

7) Thou shalt have none other gods before me.


8) Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9) Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10)And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12) Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

13Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15) And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16) Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

17) Thou shalt not kill.

18) Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19) Neither shalt thou steal.

20) Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21)Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

22) These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

The words Spoken of by God, even Ten commandments was the foundation of the covenant and in the new testament we are expected to keep them because John 14:15) “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (referring to the ten commandments) Jesus said. This is showing love for God, that we keep his commandments, even ten commandments,

Think about it, HOW MUCH WEIGHT DO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HOLD, SEEING HOW THEY CAME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE LIVING GOD!

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 3rd 2009, 11:15 PM
I am curious how you would analyze this specific verse

Revelation 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And out of curiosity how do you view this verse?

Colossians 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

Now is God a favor of persons? I think not.

So while James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.is true

Christ has nullified the Law which was a snare, think about it.

Would the writing be nullified for one group of people and not the other? I think not

The commandments specified in Revelation were referring specifically to the Ten commandments, as well as many other places in the new testament

Remember when Jesus saying specifically Mark 10:19) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

to the man asking Mark 10:17) "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

Notice as I say he was specifically referring to the Ten commandments and look at this verse

Deuteronomy 4:13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

And they are

Deuteronomy 5)

7) Thou shalt have none other gods before me.


8) Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9) Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10)And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12) Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

13Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15) And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16) Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

17) Thou shalt not kill.

18) Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19) Neither shalt thou steal.

20) Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21)Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

22) These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

The words Spoken of by God, even Ten commandments was the foundation of the covenant and in the new testament we are expected to keep them because John 14:15) “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (referring to the ten commandments) Jesus said. This is showing love for God, that we keep his commandments, even ten commandments,

Think about it, HOW MUCH WEIGHT DO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HOLD, SEEING HOW THEY CAME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE LIVING GOD!


Hello Cooper25.. and welcome...

Can I ask you a question? From whence cometh Righteousness? is it from following the Law and doing everything it says to do... in your own power? following and attempting to perform the Ten Commandments? keeping them out of your own power? or ability .. to the best of your ability? Where is Justification found? in following the Law or trying to accomplish following the Ten Commandments with perfection?

or is it from Christ Himself... who has Fulfilled the Law... that Righteousness which is manifested 'outside' the Law... which is witnessed by the Law itself and by the prophets..

Righteousness which is 'by Faith'... in His completed and Atoning work on Calvary... there is 'no other ' Righteousness other than this.. Jesus Himself is the Righteousness of God....

When they asked Jesus.. the Scribes trying to trick Him in his questions.. they asked Him what the Greatest Commandment was..

His response was to say:
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus stated.. that His followers were to Love the Lord God with all their heart, soul, and mind... and to Love Thy Neighbor as thyself....

but then one would ask.. Who is my Neighbor... and then from there you will find the teaching of the Good Samaritan... [I]He that showeth Mercy... upon his/her neighbor... now Go and Do Likewise..

copper25
Feb 4th 2009, 01:43 AM
Hello Cooper25.. and welcome...

Can I ask you a question? From whence cometh Righteousness? is it from following the Law and doing everything it says to do... in your own power? following and attempting to perform the Ten Commandments? keeping them out of your own power? or ability .. to the best of your ability? Where is Justification found? in following the Law or trying to accomplish following the Ten Commandments with perfection?

or is it from Christ Himself... who has Fulfilled the Law... that Righteousness which is manifested 'outside' the Law... which is witnessed by the Law itself and by the prophets..

Righteousness which is 'by Faith'... in His completed and Atoning work on Calvary... there is 'no other ' Righteousness other than this.. Jesus Himself is the Righteousness of God....

When they asked Jesus.. the Scribes trying to trick Him in his questions.. they asked Him what the Greatest Commandment was..

His response was to say:
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus stated.. that His followers were to Love the Lord God with all their heart, soul, and mind... and to Love Thy Neighbor as thyself....

but then one would ask.. Who is my Neighbor... and then from there you will find the teaching of the Good Samaritan... [I]He that showeth Mercy... upon his/her neighbor... now Go and Do Likewise..

Now we know that that would be legalism if one ever said that they were justified by works, as for me, Philippians 4:13) I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Can one ever prosper without God being the workman upon their life, I think not. So without the grace of God where would we be. It is by the Lord’s sacrifice we have our peace with God and not of works and yet I say unto you

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Now what does it mean to love God with all your heart?

The laodicean-type Christians do not have their hearts right with God and they were considered, poor, and blind, and naked because they chose to be friends with the world, submitting to spiritual fornication, immorality, and outer holiness rather then the inner.

Now doesn’t faith, the type that pleases God, is one where one is also submissive, one where the person has accepted and followed after the Lord and his lordship over their life?

I say faith without obedience, yet not justified by obedience, is dead and will leave one lukewarm and rejected by Christ

Revelation 3:16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 03:40 PM
Your question is hard to understand, but I think the answer is God never required perfect obedience.




Of course God wrote it all so there is no contradiction. However, you use the scriptures for your own purpose.

Revelation says the same thing -- Revelation 22:18-19

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. "

or how about Proverbs 30:5-6

"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. 6 Do not add to His words Lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar. "

Blessings,
BHS

Can you explain how this scripture can be used for personal reasons since it concerns breaking Gods law?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 03:46 PM
I am curious how you would analyze this specific verse

Revelation 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And out of curiosity how do you view this verse?

Colossians 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

Now is God a favor of persons? I think not.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Christ has nullified the Law which was a snare, think about it.

Would the writing be nullified for one group of people and not the other? I think not

The commandments specified in Revelation were referring specifically to the Ten commandments, as well as many other places in the new testament

Remember when Jesus saying specifically Mark 10:19) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

to the man asking Mark 10:17) "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

Notice as I say he was specifically referring to the Ten commandments and look at this verse

Deuteronomy 4:13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

And they are

Deuteronomy 5)

7) Thou shalt have none other gods before me.


8) Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9) Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10)And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12) Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

13Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15) And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16) Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

17) Thou shalt not kill.

18) Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19) Neither shalt thou steal.

20) Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21)Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

22) These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

The words Spoken of by God, even Ten commandments was the foundation of the covenant and in the new testament we are expected to keep them because John 14:15) “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (referring to the ten commandments) Jesus said. This is showing love for God, that we keep his commandments, even ten commandments,

Think about it, HOW MUCH WEIGHT DO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HOLD, SEEING HOW THEY CAME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE LIVING GOD!

The scriptures given show that there are two laws, one is the law of liberty and the other is the Mosaic law.

The ten commandments are only a part of the Mosaic law.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

What therefore is the law of liberty, how is it fulfilled?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 03:48 PM
The scriptures given show that there are two laws, one is the law of liberty and the other is the Mosaic law.

The ten commandments are only a part of the Mosaic law.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

What therefore is the law of liberty, how is it fulfilled?

Firstfruits


As I have stated, James quotes to the "mosaic" law as he speaks of the law of liberty.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 03:52 PM
As I have stated, James quotes to the "mosaic" law as he speaks of the law of liberty.

Therefore this scripture applies;

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 4th 2009, 04:03 PM
FF, if a man forget his wife's birthday, and is forgiven, because of her pardon, does he continue to ignore her other birthdays, anniversaries and stop loving her the way she wants to be loved?

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 04:16 PM
FF, if a man forget his wife's birthday, and is forgiven, because of her pardon, does he continue to ignore her other birthdays, anniversaries and stop loving her the way she wants to be loved?

If we say we love God and we do not keep his commandments, the bible says the truth is not in him.

1 Jn 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If we are to do that which is written in the law that God gave to Moses then we must know the consequences of offending even in one point.

Unless we are not led by what is written in the law that God gave to Moses.

God bless you!

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 04:24 PM
Therefore this scripture applies;

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits


And as I have stated, this is a quote from Torah. Saul also quoted this scripture. Did a Torah command invalidate Torah?

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 04:26 PM
If we say we love God and we do not keep his commandments, the bible says the truth is not in him.

1 Jn 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If we are to do that which is written in the law that God gave to Moses then we must know the consequences of offending even in one point.

Unless we are not led by what is written in the law that God gave to Moses.

God bless you!


John speaks as equally positive about the commands of God, the word heard from the beginning, as James

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 04:32 PM
And as I have stated, this is a quote from Torah. Saul also quoted this scripture. Did a Torah command invalidate Torah?

So if we do not do what is written in Gods law are we not guilty of sin, as it is written?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 04:34 PM
John speaks as equally positive about the commands of God, the word heard from the beginning, as James

Does that change the fact that offending in even one point will cause us to be guilty of breaking the whole law as it is written?

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 4th 2009, 04:49 PM
Whether you keep God's commandments or not, you are still guilty FF, and in need of a Saviour.

Consider:

(Luk 1:5) In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
(Luk 1:6) They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Scripture says they were 'blameless', meaning they obeyed ALL the commandments. Does that mean they didn't need a Saviour?

copper25
Feb 4th 2009, 05:52 PM
James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

This simply points to the fact of how desperately we need the Lord, our Savior in a time of corruptness. Because under the law we are all condemned to hell but by Christ the hand writing of ordinances written against us are blotted out, therefore James 2:10 is truth, but those that seek the Lord will be saved and freed from the Law. It is that simple

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 07:58 PM
Whether you keep God's commandments or not, you are still guilty FF, and in need of a Saviour.

Consider:

(Luk 1:5) In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
(Luk 1:6) They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Scripture says they were 'blameless', meaning they obeyed ALL the commandments. Does that mean they didn't need a Saviour?


Are we not made perfect without keeping the law by being in Christ and following the Spirit, since the law made nothing perfect, which is the warning made to the Galatians?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Heb 7:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 08:10 PM
Are we not made perfect without keeping the law by being in Christ and following the Spirit, since the law made nothing perfect, which is the warning made to the Galatians?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Heb 7:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


You keep referring to the law as a method of righteousness and justification. Saul taught against this thinking.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 08:28 PM
You keep referring to the law as a method of righteousness and justification. Saul taught against this thinking.

What were the Galatians doing for them to be warned about trying to keep the law as well as follow the Spirit?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

InMyWildestDreams
Feb 4th 2009, 08:32 PM
Are we not made perfect without keeping the law by being in Christ and following the Spirit, since the law made nothing perfect, which is the warning made to the Galatians?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Heb 7:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

So what made Zacharias righteous?

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 08:43 PM
So what made Zacharias righteous?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Had the Spirit already been given?

Had they been freed from the law as the Galatians had been?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 08:55 PM
Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Had the Spirit already been given?

Had they been freed from the law as the Galatians had been?

Firstfruits


The Galatians lived in Paul proscribed Anarchy? Is there freedom without law?

BHS
Feb 4th 2009, 10:08 PM
Can you explain how this scripture can be used for personal reasons since it concerns breaking Gods law?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits

Wow, how you love this verse in James! I explained earlier what James meant by this -- that breaking a commandment of God constitutes sin, and therefore one needs redemption, whether one breaks one commandment or all of them -- it is the same. My comment about using scripture referred to the Deuteronomy scriptures you had posted. God simply said not to add to or take from the Scripture, just as He did in Psalms and Revelation. That is not exclusive of the "Law of Moses" as it seemed you made it to appear.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 10:09 PM
The Galatians lived in Paul proscribed Anarchy? Is there freedom without law?

My question was concerning Zacharias and whether or not the Spirit had yet been given.

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 4th 2009, 10:48 PM
Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Had the Spirit already been given?

Had they been freed from the law as the Galatians had been?

Firstfruits

That doesn't address the question. Why was Zacharias considered righteous?

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 11:22 PM
That doesn't address the question. Why was Zacharias considered righteous?


Does it start with an "F" and end with an "aith"?

That is "faith" to the layperson. :rofl:

keck553
Feb 4th 2009, 11:24 PM
Does it start with an "F" and end with an "aith"?

That is "faith" to the layperson. :rofl:
We have a winner !!!!

amen

copper25
Feb 4th 2009, 11:37 PM
Does it start with an "F" and end with an "aith"?

That is "faith" to the layperson. :rofl:

By faith, Romans 1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 11:8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Any how many others where conqueror by faith, having faith and acting on it.

keck553
Feb 4th 2009, 11:40 PM
By faith, Romans 1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 11:8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Any how many others where conqueror by faith, having faith and acting on it.

How did Zacharias and Elizabeth act on their faith?

copper25
Feb 5th 2009, 12:32 AM
5)THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6)And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Because of their faith in God they were submissive to Him in every way, by faith they obeyed God and hearkened unto his words. This is how they acted on their faith.

Walstib
Feb 5th 2009, 01:40 AM
So what made Zacharias righteous?

Hi there,

Welcome to the Board! It would ge great if you could post an introdution HERE. (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=19)

I guess the question I would ask is who made Zacharias righteous.

Peace,
Joe

Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who may stand in His holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, Nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive blessing from the Lord, And righteousness from the God of his salvation. This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face. Selah (Psa 24:3-6 NKJV)

Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.(Php 3:8-11 NKJV)

For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 5:17-21 NKJV)

Walstib
Feb 5th 2009, 02:12 AM
Scripture says they were 'blameless', meaning they obeyed ALL the commandments. Does that mean they didn't need a Saviour?

I thought one was blameless because they made the appropriate sacrifices for their transgressions under the Mosaic law. The scapegoat made that easy under the Mosaic law. (Lev 16)

Paul oversaw the murder of Stephen when persecuting the church but concerning the righteousness which is in the Mosaic law was considered blameless.

though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Php 3:4-6 NKJV)

For a second witness of someone being blameless after transgressing the Lord.

And look! You have risen in your father's place, a brood of sinful men, to increase still more the fierce anger of the Lord against Israel. (Num 32:14 NKJV)............................

...................Then Moses said to them: "If you do this thing, if you arm yourselves before the Lord for the war, and all your armed men cross over the Jordan before the Lord until He has driven out His enemies from before Him, and the land is subdued before the Lord, then afterward you may return and be blameless before the Lord and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the Lord. (Num 32:20-22 NKJV)

The concept of being cleansed to the point of being found blameless is everywhere. Jesus being who we need for this now and then for that matter, the shadow was in the Mosaic law. It's not what we do but what he has done, the ultimate sacrifice to clean us white as snow. By grace through faith ;)

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Col 1:19-23 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

keck553
Feb 5th 2009, 06:10 AM
Well, first of all you may want to read up on what the sacrifices actually covered.

Secondly, I get chills down my spine when 'shadow' is used to spirtualize a physical concept. Hebrew Scriptural references to 'shadows' is much different than the western Plato shadow-cave worldview. Think about Who was the Shadow-Caster and things will begin to make sense.

The answer is simple: Faith, which causes obedience. Abraham did it. Many others too. Note in every case, faith lead to obedience to God's commands. I think James said something about that....faith without works...you know...

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 09:38 AM
That doesn't address the question. Why was Zacharias considered righteous?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

I believe that faith is addressed in the scripture given.

Faith is surely the key but let us not forget that they were at that time under the Mosaic law.

Lk 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

If walking or keeping all the commandments and ordinances contained in the Mosaic law makes us perfect with regards to this scripture we would never be perfect even if we could.

Heb 7:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Therefore as I said before, faith is the key.

God bless you

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 09:44 AM
5)THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6)And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Because of their faith in God they were submissive to Him in every way, by faith they obeyed God and hearkened unto his words. This is how they acted on their faith.

By all that meant 100%, all the commandments all the ordinances anything less meant the following;

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 5th 2009, 01:01 PM
FF, I am not sure what your point is in continually referring to this James verse. Anyone, at anytime -- if they sin, are guilty before God. Period.

You want us to believe that he was against the Torah, but that is not James' position evidenced by reading the rest of the book.

BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 01:15 PM
FF, I am not sure what your point is in continually referring to this James verse. Anyone, at anytime -- if they sin, are guilty before God. Period.

You want us to believe that he was against the Torah, but that is not James' position evidenced by reading the rest of the book.

BHS

In this case it is not because they are purposefully going out to sin but they are attempting to keep Gods law but only partially, not doing all that is written in order to fulfill the law.

A partial law is a broken law, even though it is meant for good and not for sin. A percentage of the whole is not acceptable.

Now do you see the meaning of the scripture?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

You can keep certain parts of the law if however it is not the whole it makes us guilty of breaking all the law.

That is why the law is a law of condemnation.

2 Cor 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Walstib
Feb 5th 2009, 01:20 PM
Well, first of all you may want to read up on what the sacrifices actually covered.

Secondly, I get chills down my spine when 'shadow' is used to spirtualize a physical concept. Hebrew Scriptural references to 'shadows' is much different than the western Plato shadow-cave worldview. Think about Who was the Shadow-Caster and things will begin to make sense.

The answer is simple: Faith, which causes obedience. Abraham did it. Many others too. Note in every case, faith lead to obedience to God's commands. I think James said something about that....faith without works...you know...

Hi Keck,

First of all do you think I have not read and don't know what the sacrifices covered? Might sin and discord the answer? A different answer would be interesting to say the least. Was your answer a roundabout way of saying you don't think Zacharias fell short of the glory of God?

Second, can something that has relevance and truth in the physical not still shadow something spiritual? I mean really brother. This was a Hebrew author writing to Hebrews and you figure he was influenced by western Plato shadow caving whatever? Lets be honest with each other for the Glory of God.

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (Heb 10:1-3 NKJV)


Third, the answer to what? Faith is the answer to many things. The post of your I commented on was made before this Zacharias topic came up. Do you think I am try to argue with James and say that faith without works is alive? Or that faith would lead to disobedience to God? I don't really understand you comment. :dunno: Without being found in Jesus no amount of obedience matters. It's a straw man to try and make it look like I would be preaching disobedience.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Rom 16:24-27 KJV)

Truly in peace,
Joe

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 02:34 PM
By all that meant 100%, all the commandments all the ordinances anything less meant the following;

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits


No, it did not mean that anyone had to keep 100% of the commandments. In fact, if a man kept the commands that were given to women he would in fact be breaking commandments. This verse has nothing to do with the Torah, it is about the need for Messiah. It was the matter of justification, which you still errently suggest was provided by the law.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 02:51 PM
No, it did not mean that anyone had to keep 100% of the commandments. In fact, if a man kept the commands that were given to women he would in fact be breaking commandments. This verse has nothing to do with the Torah, it is about the need for Messiah. It was the matter of justification, which you still errently suggest was provided by the law.

All that applied to either a male of a female had to be obeyed by whoever it applied to, it is still the same requirement.

So if they have The Messiah do they therefore not need the Torah of commandments or are they to remain under the law as well as in The Messiah?

what does it mean to offend in one point?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 03:17 PM
All that applied to either a male of a female had to be obeyed by whoever it applied to, it is still the same requirement.

So if they have The Messiah do they therefore not need the Torah of commandments or are they to remain under the law as well as in The Messiah?

what does it mean to offend in one point?

Firstfruits


It means that we should not pick and choose.

Paul said that he was "not without the law of God but under the law to Messiah"

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 03:30 PM
It means that we should not pick and choose.

Paul said that he was "not without the law of God but under the law to Messiah"

What happens if we pick and choose what to keep and what not to keep?

When you say law to Messiah are you speaking of the law of Christ?

Gal 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

How do we fulfil the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 04:34 PM
What happens if we pick and choose what to keep and what not to keep?

When you say law to Messiah are you speaking of the law of Christ?

Gal 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

How do we fulfil the law of Christ?

Firstfruits


Again, Messiah and YHWH did not enact two different laws to see which was better. And no, Paul clearly says he is under the law of God to Messiah. Bearing brudens....another command found in the OT Law. so you tell me, are there two diametrically opposed laws made by one unchanging God?

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 04:39 PM
Again, Messiah and YHWH did not enact two different laws to see which was better. And no, Paul clearly says he is under the law of God to Messiah. Bearing brudens....another command found in the OT Law. so you tell me, are there two diametrically opposed laws made by one unchanging God?

Yet both laws are fulfilled differently aren't they?

One is fulfilled by loving thy neighbour and the other is fulfilled by doing all that is written in the Mosaic law including loving thy neighbour.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 04:43 PM
Yet both laws are fulfilled differently aren't they?

One is fulfilled by loving thy neighbour and theouther is fulfilled by doing all that is written in the Mosaic law including loving thy neighbour.

Firstfruits


No, they are both fulfilled by loving God and loving your neighbor. The "Mosaic" law defines the love that you are to show to God and your neighbor. Therefore, they are one and the same.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 04:53 PM
No, they are both fulfilled by loving God and loving your neighbor. The "Mosaic" law defines the love that you are to show to God and your neighbor. Therefore, they are one and the same.

The Mosaic law is not one commandment it is not even ten commandments, as is the law of Christ. The Mosaic law includes loving they neighbour, the law of Christ is fulfilled by loving thy neighbour. They are therefore not to same.

What are the commandment in the Mosaic law that we can do without that would make it the same as the law of Christ?

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 5th 2009, 05:47 PM
Hi Keck,

First of all do you think I have not read and don't know what the sacrifices covered? Might sin and discord the answer? A different answer would be interesting to say the least. Was your answer a roundabout way of saying you don't think Zacharias fell short of the glory of God?

I don't assume anything. It was a question. The same question pertains to Zacharias. Scripture says he was righteous and blameless in Torah. Since he was blameless in Torah, that means he followed the law as proscribed. So my question still stands. How can Zacharis fall short if he was blameless in Torah? I'd like to know your answer.

As to sacrifices, it is important to understand the depth of context.

Korban is usually translated as 'offering' or 'sacrifice'. Korban, howvever is not an 'animal sacrifice.' The idea behind pagan sacrifices was for the offerer to seek some favor from a pagan deity, then simply to be left alone. The opposite is the case with Korban. Korban always has to do with 'drawing near.' Korban is always about maintaining, or reestablishing close fellowship with God. The word 'Korban' comes from teh root verb 'karab', which means literally 'to draw near'.

There are five types of Korban:
Olah - Not well understood from reading the English Bible. Olah usually is translated as 'burnt' as in 'burnt offereing.' While it is true int in most cases olah is consumed on the alter, that is not what the word means. Olah comes from the root 'alah' (ascend). The olah was an offering that first brought the worshipper near, then figuratively he asciended into the presence of God Almighty. Details are in Lev 1"3-7

Minchah - Minchah is a grain offering. Some are with leaven, others are without leaven. Some are consumed on the Alter, some are consumed by priests, some are apportioned. Sometimes frankincense is used with Lorban Minchah. The KJV completely misses the mark by using the word 'meat' in place of 'minchah.' These are grain offerings detailed in Lev 2. Korban Minchah deals directly with the surrender of all of a man's work and labor to God.

Shelamim - This is a peace offering. It is a korban of celebration. Unlike korban olah, which is consumed by fire on the alter, this offering is eaten by priests, the offered and guests. On a personal level, it is a volutary offering.

Chatat - Usually translated as a sin offering. It can be personal or communal in application. There is a specific mention of the chatat in relationship to a priest who sins.

Asham - Translated as guilt offering/trespass offering. Asham is sin related, but focused on the sins of division, or failure to maintain God's standards of division. Sins that cause a breakdown in relationships are asham (oaths, gossip, etc). Failing to separate oneself from the things that God says are not to be in His presence is another place that asham applies.

In Hebraic context, when one thinks of Korban, the thing 'to draw near'.

So, here are some questions perhaps you could research -
1. Why is the Passoveer Lamb sacrifice a personal one - unrelated to sin, but there are communal sin and guilt sacrifices?
2. Did an Israelite living in the Tabernacle or Temple periods gain and lose their eternal salvation on the basis of communal or individual sacrifices?
3. Yom Kippur offerings were the ultimate communal sin offerings. They were offered each year only on that day. If the Yom Kippur was not offered, did the people 'lose their eternal salvation?'

The larger question is - Do you think these offering were to gain eternal forgiveness of sin?

If you said 'no' to that question then you need to ask what all this stuff was for, what purpose did it serve? If you believe God, read Lev 4:20, Lev 5:10. Lev 6:6-7. Lev 19:22, and Lev 17:11. Then read Hebrews 10:4 and Hebrews 10:11. How do the Hebrews passages relate to the Leviticus passages? Did God change His mind?

God did not change His mind. His ways have not changed.


Second, can something that has relevance and truth in the physical not still shadow something spiritual? I mean really brother. This was a Hebrew author writing to Hebrews and you figure he was influenced by western Plato shadow caving whatever? Lets be honest with each other for the Glory of God.

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (Heb 10:1-3 NKJV)

No, I said the mainstream Christian interpretation of Paul's letter invokes shadow-cave analogies. Paul was a Jew, not a pagan.



Third, the answer to what? Faith is the answer to many things. The post of your I commented on was made before this Zacharias topic came up. Do you think I am try to argue with James and say that faith without works is alive? Or that faith would lead to disobedience to God? I don't really understand you comment. :dunno: Without being found in Jesus no amount of obedience matters. It's a straw man to try and make it look like I would be preaching disobedience.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Rom 16:24-27 KJV)

I'm not making any kind of statement, I was merely tryiing to provoke some thought. Scripture says Zacharias was blameless. The standard teaching in today's church is that following Torah is impossible. Someone's not right, and I always default to the word of God when 'something's not right.'


Truly in peace,
Joe


shalom

keck553
Feb 5th 2009, 05:53 PM
Therefore as I said before, faith is the key.

God bless you

amen. And what is the product of faith?

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 07:08 PM
The Mosaic law is not one commandment it is not even ten commandments, as is the law of Christ. The Mosaic law includes loving they neighbour, the law of Christ is fulfilled by loving thy neighbour. They are therefore not to same.

What are the commandment in the Mosaic law that we can do without that would make it the same as the law of Christ?

Firstfruits


Are you referring to the change in priesthood?

Walstib
Feb 5th 2009, 08:07 PM
Keck,

Thanks for the reply, I may be a few days but I am looking forward to discussing this with you. Get to the heart of the topic ;)

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 08:29 PM
No, they are both fulfilled by loving God and loving your neighbor. The "Mosaic" law defines the love that you are to show to God and your neighbor. Therefore, they are one and the same.

Are you saying that it is not required to do all that is written in the law unless it relates to loving your neighbour since that fulfils the law?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 09:11 PM
Are you saying that it is not required to do all that is written in the law unless it relates to loving your neighbour since that fulfils the law?

Firstfruits


No, we should love God as well.

keck553
Feb 5th 2009, 09:12 PM
Keck,

Thanks for the reply, I may be a few days but I am looking forward to discussing this with you. Get to the heart of the topic ;)

awesome! Looking forward to it.

BHS
Feb 5th 2009, 11:05 PM
In this case it is not because they are purposefully going out to sin but they are attempting to keep Gods law but only partially, not doing all that is written in order to fulfill the law.

A partial law is a broken law, even though it is meant for good and not for sin. A percentage of the whole is not acceptable.

Now do you see the meaning of the scripture?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

You can keep certain parts of the law if however it is not the whole it makes us guilty of breaking all the law.

That is why the law is a law of condemnation.

2 Cor 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I would agree that the Torah is a unit, but are you not reading in your own interpretation when you speak of how they intentionally only kept a part of it?
Unless the scripture says they intentionally only kept a part of it, how would you know that? If the "law" brings condemnation, it is because one has sinned. Again, you are making an issue of 2 "laws" that oppose one another and that simply is not the case. One is not a "law of condemnation" and the other not. Is the other a "law of salvation". That cannot be either. The Torah, as Paul says is righteous and holy and good, so I think your interpretation needs some tweaking.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2009, 03:27 PM
No, we should love God as well.

Without doubt.

So if we love God and love one another according to the two great commandments that our salvation is gauranteed, without the need for any extras, is that right?

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 6th 2009, 10:24 PM
Without doubt.

So if we love God and love one another according to the two great commandments that our salvation is gauranteed, without the need for any extras, is that right?

Firstfruits

Assuming one knows exactly how to love God and love one another....I think God tells us exactly how - all in 66 books.

Extras?

Dravenhawk
Feb 7th 2009, 05:45 AM
I have come to look at the 10 commandments and the law as like a metaphysical law of metaphysics. Since the law by its self could never save man fallen from grace which is why Christ came to earth to purchace the price of our sin with His blood.

Just as the laws of physics determine a specific outcome in the physical, so does the Law of God in matters of the spiritual.

Idolatry causes us to look away from the true God who loves us. and the associated comandment to keep the sabath as a day of rest serves as a constant reminder of exactly who is in charge and that rest is essential to keep the body healthy

Honoring our father and mother is in its simplest form not hating petaphile dad and alcholoic mom passed out on the couch and allowing the sin to imbed its self in our souls only to be passed on to the next generation. It means seperating the sin from the sinner and giving honor to the person as God loves us.

Do not murder as doing so inflames a persons soul for vengence which is Gods property. Murder causes unrest and desires for revenge that span for hundreds of years as people kill each other to settle an old score of tit for tat

Adultry causes broken hearts, broken marriages, unwanted children and weakens the fundamental core of society /town / country and gives rise to murder out of vengenge which is Gods property

Stealing and thieviey are directly linked to coveting. One has to covet first and then the idea is hatched in the fertile covetous mind to take what does not belong to you.

Giving false testimony against your neighbor causes alot of unrest between peoples / desires for vengence that can lead to murderous intentions as well as sowing the seeds of distrust among a community

Coveting causes greed, thievery, and sows a nature of civic distrust in our fellow man as the focus shifts from serving God to one-upmanship on each other to exhault our pride.

The Law of God is an interwoven tapistry of metaphysical law from Gods perspective and was intended for mankind as a means to conduct himself in a manner that would please God and was not ever intended as a ticket to Heavan or to be a means of salvation

Dravenhawk

Firstfruits
Feb 7th 2009, 12:39 PM
I would agree that the Torah is a unit, but are you not reading in your own interpretation when you speak of how they intentionally only kept a part of it?
Unless the scripture says they intentionally only kept a part of it, how would you know that? If the "law" brings condemnation, it is because one has sinned. Again, you are making an issue of 2 "laws" that oppose one another and that simply is not the case. One is not a "law of condemnation" and the other not. Is the other a "law of salvation". That cannot be either. The Torah, as Paul says is righteous and holy and good, so I think your interpretation needs some tweaking.

Blessings,
BHS

The scriptures do mention some of the things they were following;

Gal 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and Years.
Gal 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Paul makes it very clear what they were doing in the next scripture;

Gal 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Does that answer you question?

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 8th 2009, 02:47 AM
Not really? We interpret the scripture differently -- Galatians 4:21 is the clue to the passage that this is a discussion of two "laws", (1) the "law" of the Pharisees and (2) the Torah of God. 21 Say to me, you who wish to be under the law (under the teachings of the Rabbinic traditions), do you not hear the Torah? (Can’t you see how their teachings conflict with the written Word?)

The passage is a prophecy of Jesus, the son of promise through Issac. The allegory is that of the working of the flesh through impatience -- represented by Hagar and Ishmael and the the work of the Spirit through a promise -- represented by Sarah and Issac. The righteous, holy and good Torah of God did not come through Ishmael, but through Issac's descendants. God's loving instructions are not a work of the flesh and never put anyone under bondage.

God bless you,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2009, 12:58 PM
Not really? We interpret the scripture differently -- Galatians 4:21 is the clue to the passage that this is a discussion of two "laws", (1) the "law" of the Pharisees and (2) the Torah of God. 21 Say to me, you who wish to be under the law (under the teachings of the Rabbinic traditions), do you not hear the Torah? (Can’t you see how their teachings conflict with the written Word?)

The passage is a prophecy of Jesus, the son of promise through Issac. The allegory is that of the working of the flesh through impatience -- represented by Hagar and Ishmael and the the work of the Spirit through a promise -- represented by Sarah and Issac. The righteous, holy and good Torah of God did not come through Ishmael, but through Issac's descendants. God's loving instructions are not a work of the flesh and never put anyone under bondage.

God bless you,
BHS

Is the Torah the same as the Gospel by which they were saved and by which they shall be judged?

What are the requirements of the the Torah that are contained in the Gospel that was preached?

According to the following scripture is the law given at mount Sinai the Torah or of the pharisees?

Gal 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 8th 2009, 03:26 PM
(Gal 4:24) This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. - NASB

FF, let's discuss this in context.

BHS
Feb 8th 2009, 03:38 PM
I am not interested in a detailed discussion of the "law" because I find it a time waster.
However, I will say

1) The gospel was indeed preached in the Torah -- the same gospel as was presented in the "NT".

--- Because of their sin, they were in need of a Savior
--- They had a faith in the one true God
--- Because they were condemned by their sin, they looked for a Messiah, a redeemer.

This is the salvation of those who came before the cross. Mankind is saved in only one way -- the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus that atoned for their sins.

2) The Torah was God's revealed will as to how to have a relationship with Him.

3) The Torah was not bondage. God gave the Torah, but He does not bring bondage. Sin is the bondage that leads to death. Man-made rules became a bondage to those who found security in them.

5) It was the Torah given that men added their rules to, making their man-made rules a burden too heavy to
bear. This is an allegory. Ishmael was a product of Abraham becoming impatient and doing things His
way. The Torah does not fit this description, but man-made rules added to it does.

6) Mankind is and will be judged by God according to His commandments. He is and will be saved not by how well the commandments were kept, but by God's grace through faith.

God bless you,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2009, 03:51 PM
(Gal 4:24) This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. - NASB

FF, let's discuss this in context.




Is Hagar representing the Torah from mount Sinai, Or does she represent the pharesees?

Putting it is context means that Paul tells us what he is talking about,

Gal 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

and then he tells us the allegory. If he is not talking about the law from Sinai, then what law is he talking about?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2009, 04:05 PM
I am not interested in a detailed discussion of the "law" because I find it a time waster.
However, I will say

1) The gospel was indeed preached in the Torah -- the same gospel as was presented in the "NT".

--- Because of their sin, they were in need of a Savior
--- They had a faith in the one true God
--- Because they were condemned by their sin, they looked for a Messiah, a redeemer.

This is the salvation of those who came before the cross. Mankind is saved in only one way -- the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus that atoned for their sins.

2) The Torah was God's revealed will as to how to have a relationship with Him.

3) The Torah was not bondage. God gave the Torah, but He does not bring bondage. Sin is the bondage that leads to death. Man-made rules became a bondage to those who found security in them.

5) It was the Torah given that men added their rules to, making their man-made rules a burden too heavy to
bear. This is an allegory. Ishmael was a product of Abraham becoming impatient and doing things His
way. The Torah does not fit this description, but man-made rules added to it does.

6) All who are saved guard the commandments of God because they love Him. And by these commandments one is judged.

God bless you,
BHS

Would you agree that the Torah that men added their own rules to was given at mount Sinai, and that it was that which was given at mount Sinai that Paul spoke of?

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 8th 2009, 04:07 PM
Is Hagar representing the Torah from mount Sinai, Or does she represent the pharesees?

Putting it is context means that Paul tells us what he is talking about,

Gal 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

and then he tells us the allegory. If he is not talking about the law from Sinai, then what law is he talking about?

Firstfruits

She obviously represents something not of God, but something of the flesh.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2009, 04:24 PM
She obviously represents something not of God, but something of the flesh.

Blessings,
BHS

Gal 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth toJerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Would you agree that it is the Torah that came from mount Sinai? Therefore Agar represents the Torah.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 8th 2009, 06:05 PM
No. It is the Torah with the addition of man-made rules.

Would you say the Torah is not of God?

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2009, 06:15 PM
No. It is the Torah with the addition of man-made rules.

Would you say the Torah is not of God?

Blessings,
BHS

Gal 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth toJerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Did man made rules come from mount Sinai or from God?

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 8th 2009, 06:33 PM
Again, it is an allegory. Hagar and Ishmael did not come from God, nor did man-made rules added to the Torah.

Does Hagar represent what is of God, or of the flesh?

Again, is the Torah from God or of the flesh? The Torah did not bring bondage.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2009, 07:52 PM
Again, it is an allegory. Hagar and Ishmael did not come from God, nor did man-made rules added to the Torah.

Does Hagar represent what is of God, or of the flesh?

Again, is the Torah from God or of the flesh? The Torah did not bring bondage.

Blessings,
BHS

An allegory about what?

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 8th 2009, 08:47 PM
The chapter is a messianic fulfillment. It basically says that Jesus was the son of promise through Issac. Paul, first admonishes the Gentiles who came from pagan rules and practices to abandon those practices now that they know the true God.

Galatians 4:8-11 "However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Then he tells them not to become entangled by trading their pagan rules with man-made traditions of the "Judaizers" of the 1st century, which is of the flesh, and not of God.

The allegory is what is of the flesh (man-made) as opposed to what is of God.

You have not answered my questions. When you explain how the Torah is not of God and relates to Hagar and Ishmael, then we can continue the discussion.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2009, 10:52 AM
The chapter is a messianic fulfillment. It basically says that Jesus was the son of promise through Issac. Paul, first admonishes the Gentiles who came from pagan rules and practices to abandon those practices now that they know the true God.

Galatians 4:8-11 "However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Then he tells them not to become entangled by traded their pagan rules with man-made traditions of the "Judaizers" of the 1st century, which is of the flesh, and not of God.

The allegory is what is of the flesh (man-made) as opposed to what is of God.

You have not answered my questions. When you explain how the Torah is not of God and relates to Hagar and Ishmael, then we can continue the discussion.

Blessings,
BHS

What you have said does not match what is written.

The allegory

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

What are the two covenants?

Whos children are we?

Which covenant represents the flesh?

Which covenant represenst the spirit?

Which covenant reperesents Christ when the following scripture is applied?

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 9th 2009, 12:01 PM
That depends upon how you read it. Since the Torah is not a covenant, I will wait for your answers. You have turned a very significant messianic passage into an argument against the Torah.

BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2009, 02:41 PM
That depends upon how you read it. Since the Torah is not a covenant, I will wait for your answers. You do have turned a very significant messianic passage into an argument against the Torah.

BHS

When did The covenant that God gave at Mount sinai cease to be a covenant?

Deut 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

Deut 9:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

Hence the Allegory:

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 9th 2009, 02:41 PM
Without doubt.

So if we love God and love one another according to the two great commandments that our salvation is gauranteed, without the need for any extras, is that right?

Firstfruits


No, our salvation comes apart from any commandments

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2009, 03:02 PM
No, our salvation comes apart from any commandments

Are you saying that we do not need to keep the commandments to be saved?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 9th 2009, 03:22 PM
Are you saying that we do not need to keep the commandments to be saved?

Firstfruits


I am saying that commandments do not save.

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2009, 04:49 PM
I am saying that commandments do not save.

So are we saved without the commandments?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 9th 2009, 05:07 PM
So are we saved without the commandments?

Firstfruits


We are saved by the death burial and resurrection of Messiah.

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2009, 05:59 PM
We are saved by the death burial and resurrection of Messiah.

I agree with you, therefore that is according to the gospel of Christ without the commandments even though it seems you do not want to say it, yet that is what you are saying.

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 5:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 9th 2009, 07:13 PM
I agree with you, therefore that is according to the gospel of Christ without the commandments even though it seems you do not want to say it, yet that is what you are saying.


I am not aware that I said otherwise The commandments are not, nor have they ever been about salvation.

keck553
Feb 9th 2009, 07:23 PM
I agree with you, therefore that is according to the gospel of Christ without the commandments even though it seems you do not want to say it, yet that is what you are saying.


I don't know, just shooting in the dark here, but perhaps some people who are saved by grace are just simply humbled and grateful enough to obey God and to live as God instructed?

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2009, 08:12 PM
I don't know, just shooting in the dark here, but perhaps some people who are saved by grace are just simply humbled and grateful enough to obey God and to live as God instructed?

Jn 6:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jn 6:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What are we being humbled to obey regarding the work of God?

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 9th 2009, 08:33 PM
FF, I would answer with this:

An awesome, loving, fruitful and incredible relationship with God. Beyond imagination.

Firstfruits
Feb 9th 2009, 08:43 PM
FF, I would answer with this:

An awesome, loving, fruitful and incredible relationship with God. Beyond imagination.

Also knowing the will of God in order to please him.

Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

What are we doing to work the work of God?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 9th 2009, 08:58 PM
Well, FF, none of us are pefect, least of all me. I know the will of God - it's in His Word. The Holy Spirit doesn't 'make' me do the will of God, but He strengthens me if I surrender my fleshy will to Him.

I am not alway successful with that, and it's a struggle, especially when faced with seemingly insurmountable obstacles.

BHS
Feb 9th 2009, 10:36 PM
FF, What is the covenant? There is a covenant spoken of in the Torah, but the Torah is not the covenant. You still have not responded to my questions.

Blessings,
BHS

keck553
Feb 9th 2009, 10:48 PM
Torah is not a covenant.

Firstfruits
Feb 10th 2009, 10:26 AM
Well, FF, none of us are pefect, least of all me. I know the will of God - it's in His Word. The Holy Spirit doesn't 'make' me do the will of God, but He strengthens me if I surrender my fleshy will to Him.

I am not alway successful with that, and it's a struggle, especially when faced with seemingly insurmountable obstacles.

This scripture say that Gods will is perfect not that we are perfect.

Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 10th 2009, 10:33 AM
FF, What is the covenant? There is a covenant spoken of in the Torah, but the Torah is not the covenant. You still have not responded to my questions.

Blessings,
BHS

When you speak of the Torah, I take it that you are not talking about the commandments of God which according to these scriptures is the covenant?

Deut 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

Deut 9:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

What is the ark of the covenant?

1 Kings 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Which questions have I not responded to?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 10th 2009, 01:07 PM
When you speak of the Torah, I take it that you are not talking about the commandments of God which according to these scriptures is the covenant?

Deut 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

Deut 9:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

What is the ark of the covenant?

1 Kings 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Which questions have I not responded to?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


I take it you do not understand what God says His covenant is.

BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 10th 2009, 02:37 PM
I take it you do not understand what God says His covenant is.

BHS

Which covenant are you reffering to?

Again, which question have I not answerd?

If the Torah is not what God gave at mount Sinai then what commandments are expected to be followed since it is the covenant which contains the commandments that are to be obeyed?

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 10th 2009, 03:27 PM
Which covenant are you reffering to?

Again, which question have I not answerd?

If the Torah is not what God gave at mount Sinai then what commandments are expected to be followed since it is the covenant which contains the commandments that are to be obeyed?

Firstfruits

For the questions I asked, refer to Post #93 and #95.

The covenant is the relationship between God and man -- if you will be my people, I will be your God. The commandments were meant to bring glory and honor to God, which ties in with what Jesus said in Matthew 5:16.

"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 10th 2009, 04:22 PM
For the questions I asked, refer to Post #93 and #95.

The covenant is the relationship between God and man -- if you will be my people, I will be your God. The commandments were meant to bring glory and honor to God, which ties in with what Jesus said in Matthew 5:16.

"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

Blessings,
BHS

Would you say the Torah is not of God?

I would not say that the Torah is not of God, but what is the difference between the Torah and the covenant of commandments given by God at mount Sinai?

according to the allegory Hagar represents the covenant given at mount Sinai and is also a representation of the flesh.

I hope that answers your questions.

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 10th 2009, 05:34 PM
Would you say the Torah is not of God?

I would not say that the Torah is not of God, but what is the difference between the Torah and the covenant of commandments given by God at mount Sinai?

according to the allegory Hagar represents the covenant given at mount Sinai and is also a representation of the flesh.

I hope that answers your questions.

Firstfruits

Torah is not translated very well to English. Torah means to 'aim for the mark'. That mark is righteousness. That is not the covenant. They are God's gift of instructions to us so we can know how to abide in the covenant.

Even a plastic model has instructions. The outer box has a beautiful representation of the model, but when you open the box, the creator of the model included instructions. The covenant is to build the model. The instructions tell us how.

Firstfruits
Feb 10th 2009, 06:26 PM
Torah is not translated very well to English. Torah means to 'aim for the mark'. That mark is righteousness. That is not the covenant. They are God's gift of instructions to us so we can know how to abide in the covenant.

Even a plastic model has instructions. The outer box has a beautiful representation of the model, but when you open the box, the creator of the model included instructions. The covenant is to build the model. The instructions tell us how.

Are you saying that the commandments are part of the covenant, and that without the commandments we could not keep the covenant?

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 10th 2009, 06:47 PM
Are you saying that the commandments are part of the covenant, and that without the commandments we could not keep the covenant?

Firstfruits

Well, knowing God is the source of all widsom and morality, how would you know to.... say...treat litigants impartially? What about the command that accusers be throughly investigated? Or the command regarding false accusers? What about paying workers a liveable wage on time?

Have these and other Torah instructions have been 'done away with'? Or just the ones that we don't want to do?

Vhayes
Feb 10th 2009, 06:50 PM
Well, knowing God is the source of all widsom and morality, how would you know to.... say...treat litigants impartially? What about the command that accusers be throughly investigated? Or the command regarding false accusers? What about paying workers a liveable wage on time?

Have these and other Torah instructions have been 'done away with'? Or just the ones that we don't want to do?
All of those would be covered under "Love your neighbor as yourself".

keck553
Feb 10th 2009, 06:55 PM
All of those would be covered under "Love your neighbor as yourself".

And naturally, the ones that you want to keep are on written on your heart and the ones you don't want to keep have been 'done away with.' Is that about right?.

Vhayes
Feb 10th 2009, 06:58 PM
And naturally, you just know them all. I see.
I was referring to the ones you posted.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, we will do a thorough investigation to be certain NEITHER neighbor is treated wrongly in our judgement.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, we will be certain to pay him a livable wage on time.

Make sense?
V

Vhayes
Feb 10th 2009, 06:59 PM
Keck - did you edit your post?

Emanate
Feb 10th 2009, 07:03 PM
I was referring to the ones you posted.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, we will do a thorough investigation to be certain NEITHER neighbor is treated wrongly in our judgement.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, we will be certain to pay him a livable wage on time.

Make sense?
V


I agree. Loving your neighbor is defined by Torah.

keck553
Feb 10th 2009, 07:06 PM
I was referring to the ones you posted.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, we will do a thorough investigation to be certain NEITHER neighbor is treated wrongly in our judgement.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, we will be certain to pay him a livable wage on time.

Make sense?
V

For one thing, 'love your neighbor as yourself' is an old rabbincal consolidation of Torah commands, and at the time, Torah was still being observed.. I suspect you've learned most of these values through human teachings that are based on God's Torah.

So, what about the command to Love God. How does God say we are to love Him?

Firstfruits
Feb 10th 2009, 07:09 PM
Well, knowing God is the source of all widsom and morality, how would you know to.... say...treat litigants impartially? What about the command that accusers be throughly investigated? Or the command regarding false accusers? What about paying workers a liveable wage on time?

Have these and other Torah instructions have been 'done away with'? Or just the ones that we don't want to do?

So the following are in fact the covenant as it is written if it means we are to do what is written therein;

Deut 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

Deut 9:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

Is this covenant not how Israel should live?

What written in the book of the covenant?

Ex 24:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Heb 9:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Heb 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

2 Kings 23:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=12&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD.

2 Chron 34:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=14&CHAP=34&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that was found in the house of the LORD.

What are the words of the book of the covenant?

What is the covenant?

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 10th 2009, 07:23 PM
So the following are in fact the covenant as it is written if it means we are to do what is written therein;

Deut 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 9:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

Deut 9:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

Is this covenant not how Israel should live?

What written in the book of the covenant?

Ex 24:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Heb 9:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Heb 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

2 Kings 23:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=12&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD.

2 Chron 34:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=14&CHAP=34&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that was found in the house of the LORD.

What are the words of the book of the covenant?

What is the covenant?

Firstfruits

The covenant is our relationship with God and each other. Torah tells us how to do it God's way. I think I answered this with an analogy a few posts ago.

What does it mean to you being grafted into the commonwealth of Israel?

BHS
Feb 11th 2009, 01:47 AM
Would you say the Torah is not of God?

I would not say that the Torah is not of God, but what is the difference between the Torah and the covenant of commandments given by God at mount Sinai?

according to the allegory Hagar represents the covenant given at mount Sinai and is also a representation of the flesh.

I hope that answers your questions.

Firstfruits

Of course the Torah is of God, but the allegory would make it appear to be otherwise, if you interpret Hagar to represent the Torah. How does Hagar represent the Torah? If the Torah is of God, how does it represent the flesh?

The allegory is of slavery and redemption/bondage and freedom. The point is that there is redemption and freedom in Jesus. And since the Torah did not bring slavery or bondage, I would say that "Torah" is not what this passage is speaking of. It would be more descriptive of the burden of rules added to the Torah.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 11th 2009, 08:58 AM
Of course the Torah is of God, but the allegory would make it appear to be otherwise, if you interpret Hagar to represent the Torah. How does Hagar represent the Torah? If the Torah is of God, how does it represent the flesh?

The allegory is of slavery and redemption/bondage and freedom. The point is that there is redemption and freedom in Jesus. And since the Torah did not bring slavery or bondage, I would say that "Torah" is not what this passage is speaking of. It would be more descriptive of the burden of rules added to the Torah.

Blessings,
BHS

Paul is talking about the law of commandments contained in the Torah, not the whole Torah. He deals with the covenant made at mount Sinai.

Paul also describes the spiritual side of things so that we know who we belong to. We belong to Jerusalem which is above, we are free and not bound by the law.

Gal 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Gal 4:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Gal 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 11th 2009, 01:25 PM
FF, Galatians cannot be interpreted to mean that the Torah was done away, when this is a fulfillment of a messianic prophecy related to freedom vs. slavery. Torah was instructions for having a love relationship between man and God and his fellowman. To say that this is speaking of the Torah makes the Torah to be something it is not. The translation into the word "law" into English does not always refer to the Torah, as the first "law" of verse 21.

You have not answered my questions as to how Hagar represents the Torah and how the Torah represents the flesh.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 11th 2009, 02:13 PM
FF, Galatians cannot be interpreted to mean that the Torah was done away, when this is a fulfillment of a messianic prophecy related to freedom vs. slavery. Torah was instructions for having a love relationship between man and God and his fellowman. To say that this is speaking of the Torah makes the Torah to be something it is not. The translation into the word "law" into English does not always refer to the Torah, as the first "law" of verse 21.

You have not answered my questions as to how Hagar represents the Torah and how the Torah represents the flesh.

Blessings,
BHS

It depends on how you are using the Word Torah.

Is it the law or what contains the law?

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 11th 2009, 02:22 PM
Torah by definition is instructions, doctrines, teachings.

How does Hagar represent the Torah and how does the Torah relate to the flesh?

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 11th 2009, 02:58 PM
Torah by definition is instructions, doctrines, teachings.

How does Hagar represent the Torah and how does the Torah relate to the flesh?

Blessings,
BHS

Hagar represents the law that is contained in the Torah, the law contained in the Torah is concerned with the flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 11th 2009, 04:07 PM
Hagar represents the law that is contained in the Torah, the law contained in the Torah is concerned with the flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

How is it that Hagar represents the Torah? How is it that the Torah is concerned with the flesh anymore than the instructions we have to love God and our fellowman? I think you would have to answer these questions to justify an interpretation that it is the Torah that is referred to.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 11th 2009, 04:22 PM
How is it that Hagar represents the Torah? How is it that the Torah is concerned with the flesh anymore than the instructions we have to love God and our fellowman? I think you would have to answer these questions to justify an interpretation that it is the Torah that is referred to.

Blessings,
BHS

It is the difference between the law of commandments from mount Sinai, or The Torah on the whole with all the covenants teachings doctrines prophesies etc.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 11th 2009, 05:11 PM
It is the difference between the law of commandments from mount Sinai, or The Torah on the whole with all the covenants teachings doctrines prophesies etc.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

How does Hagar represent the Torah? And how is Torah of the flesh? Are you saying the 10 Commandments are represented by Hagar and of the flesh?

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 11th 2009, 07:43 PM
How does Hagar represent the Torah? And how is Torah of the flesh? Are you saying the 10 Commandments are represented by Hagar and of the flesh?

Blessings,
BHS

This is according to what Paul said in the following.

Gal 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
What covenant other than the commandments given by God at mount Sinai do you know of?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 11th 2009, 10:20 PM
I am asking how you justify your interpretation. The Torah or its commandments are not a covenant. And the Torah did not bring bondage to the Israelites; therefore, there must be some other interpretation ...

Here is a more literal translation -- which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar; And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery.

The bolded area, I would think is the key -- Paul is saying that now, in his day, the Jews in Jerusalem live in slavery to what (?) Again, I would say it is not the Torah, but man-made rules added. The Lord brought the children of Israel out of Egypt to Mount Sinai to free them from slavery. One son (Ishmael) was born of the flesh, the other (Issac) was the son of promise. Again, how does the Torah relate to Hagar and Ishmael? The Torah was not born of the flesh, but came from God.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2009, 09:04 AM
I am asking how you justify your interpretation. The Torah or its commandments are not a covenant. And the Torah did not bring bondage to the Israelites; therefore, there must be some other interpretation ...

Here is a more literal translation -- which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar; And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery.

The bolded area, I would think is the key -- Paul is saying that now, in his day, the Jews in Jerusalem live in slavery to what (?) Again, I would say it is not the Torah, but man-made rules added. The Lord brought the children of Israel out of Egypt to Mount Sinai to free them from slavery. One son (Ishmael) was born of the flesh, the other (Issac) was the son of promise. Again, how does the Torah relate to Hagar and Ishmael? The Torah was not born of the flesh, but came from God.

Blessings,
BHS

Unfortunately I have not interpeted it, and what you have written says nothing different to that which is written.

Gal 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

I ask again,

What covenant other than the commandments given by God at mount Sinai do you know of?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 12th 2009, 12:08 PM
It is Hagar that represents one covenant and Sarah's son of promise that represents the other -- I ask you again how does Hagar relate to the Torah? Your continually quoting the verse, does not explain your interpretation. The Jerusalem that "now is" is the written Torah initiated at Mount Sinai with added man-made rules. It is not the pure Torah, but has been tainted by man.

Blessings,
BHS

Walstib
Feb 12th 2009, 12:25 PM
The same question pertains to Zacharias. Scripture says he was righteous and blameless in Torah. Since he was blameless in Torah, that means he followed the law as proscribed. So my question still stands. How can Zacharis fall short if he was blameless in Torah? I'd like to know your answer.
I will start by saying I believe the reference about Zacharis was pertaining to the Mosaic law. I believe a parallel would be Paul speaking here...

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. (Php 3:1-7 NASB)

Now to not distract from the conversation I am not one who says no law exists at all anymore. To focus I am saying that the in Mosaic law there were provisions for "cleaning" oneself. One cannot be half clean. One is either dirty or clean. When one was cleansed under the Mosaic this person could be considered blameless. To the point that even if one had sinned, intentionally or otherwise, just by doing the things proscribed in the law, one would be following the law. My point about the scapegoat stands.

How does one still fall short of the glory of God? Simply by not being God himself, no big mystery here. Any righteousness that man has is granted to him and not by will of the flesh.

Thank you for the details on the different types of offerings, I do though take rabbinic tradition on the same level as any other non biblical source though there is much good context in what you posted. Still finding an intimate peace of relationship and forgiveness is at the root of them all.

So, here are some questions perhaps you could research -

This is what I was speaking to before... I have researched them brother.. lets just talk eh?

1. Why is the Passover Lamb sacrifice a personal one - unrelated to sin, but there are communal sin and guilt sacrifices?
It is a remembrance after the first one. The first one in Egypt prophesying the coming of Jesus, our passover lamb... whom we also have a remembrance of. We start a personal relationship with Jesus entering into the covenant he made with his body. I am not going to take the time to write an essay on this... milky stuff the way I see it.

2. Did an Israelite living in the Tabernacle or Temple periods gain and lose their eternal salvation on the basis of communal or individual sacrifices?
This is what I was meaning with speaking to the heart of the matter. The obedience from a faithful heart would lead to salvation yes, but without the heart being involved in faith no sacrifice was worth anything. Communally God set apart the nation and there is depth of reasoning as to why he chose to sanctify them through sacrifice. All paths lead to Jesus and him coming through the Jews is the end of this reasoning. You may not like the word shadow but within a Hebrew mindset there are rich treasures to be found.

3. Yom Kippur offerings were the ultimate communal sin offerings. They were offered each year only on that day. If the Yom Kippur was not offered, did the people 'lose their eternal salvation?'
No. Yet again I believe Jesus is a type of communal sacrifice. As it was for the nation of Israel He is for His church. Nuff said.

The larger question is - Do you think these offering were to gain eternal forgiveness of sin?
One cannot remove one from the other as they are so intimately tied together. The answer is yes and no and the heart is what gives light to it all.


I'm not making any kind of statement, I was merely trying to provoke some thought. Scripture says Zacharias was blameless. The standard teaching in today's church is that following Torah is impossible. Someone's not right, and I always default to the word of God when 'something's not right.'
Simply said, if one is washed in the blood of the lamb, even though one was dirty and falls short of God's glory, their sins are covered and they will be passed over and found blameless at the final judgment. Is this a license to sin... by no means! ;)

Peace,
Joe

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2009, 03:12 PM
It is Hagar that represents one covenant and Sarah's son of promise that represents the other -- I ask you again how does Hagar relate to the Torah? Your continually quoting the verse, does not explain your interpretation. The Jerusalem that "now is" is the written Torah initiated at Mount Sinai with added man-made rules. It is not the pure Torah, but has been tainted by man.

Blessings,
BHS

The covenant that Hagar represents is in the Torah. The covenant is what was given at mount Sinai?

The covenant given at mount Sinai it what was written on tables of stone, that which was written on tables of stone are the commandments.

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

BHS
Feb 13th 2009, 12:01 AM
FF, Up to this point I have given a very plausible explanation of how this "covenant" is represented by Hagar. The result of the union between Abraham and Hagar was an attempt of man doing things his way. The written Torah that was initiated at Mount Sinai had been added to throughout the years so that it was no longer the pure Torah given by God, but was again, man's attempt to do things his way and had become a stumbling block in the now Jerusalem to new believers. I think this is the proper interpretation of this passage, because is not descriptive of the Torah that I know.

Up to this point, you have yet to supply an answer as to how Hagar and Ishmael relate to or could possibly represent God's Torah in this allegory. Therefore, until you do I see no further reason to continue this discussion.

Blessings,
BHS

keck553
Feb 13th 2009, 12:36 AM
I will start by saying I believe the reference about Zacharis was pertaining to the Mosaic law. I believe a parallel would be Paul speaking here...

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. (Php 3:1-7 NASB)

Now to not distract from the conversation I am not one who says no law exists at all anymore. To focus I am saying that the in Mosaic law there were provisions for "cleaning" oneself. One cannot be half clean. One is either dirty or clean. When one was cleansed under the Mosaic this person could be considered blameless. To the point that even if one had sinned, intentionally or otherwise, just by doing the things proscribed in the law, one would be following the law. My point about the scapegoat stands.

How does one still fall short of the glory of God? Simply by not being God himself, no big mystery here. Any righteousness that man has is granted to him and not by will of the flesh.

Thank you for the details on the different types of offerings, I do though take rabbinic tradition on the same level as any other non biblical source though there is much good context in what you posted. Still finding an intimate peace of relationship and forgiveness is at the root of them all.


This is what I was speaking to before... I have researched them brother.. lets just talk eh?

It is a remembrance after the first one. The first one in Egypt prophesying the coming of Jesus, our passover lamb... whom we also have a remembrance of. We start a personal relationship with Jesus entering into the covenant he made with his body. I am not going to take the time to write an essay on this... milky stuff the way I see it.

This is what I was meaning with speaking to the heart of the matter. The obedience from a faithful heart would lead to salvation yes, but without the heart being involved in faith no sacrifice was worth anything. Communally God set apart the nation and there is depth of reasoning as to why he chose to sanctify them through sacrifice. All paths lead to Jesus and him coming through the Jews is the end of this reasoning. You may not like the word shadow but within a Hebrew mindset there are rich treasures to be found.

No. Yet again I believe Jesus is a type of communal sacrifice. As it was for the nation of Israel He is for His church. Nuff said.

One cannot remove one from the other as they are so intimately tied together. The answer is yes and no and the heart is what gives light to it all.


Simply said, if one is washed in the blood of the lamb, even though one was dirty and falls short of God's glory, their sins are covered and they will be passed over and found blameless at the final judgment. Is this a license to sin... by no means! ;)

Peace,
Joe

Thank you for responding. I agree with all your statements. I just want to expand a little on your statement that Yeshua was a communal sacrifice. I agree. The Yom Kippur sacrifice was an event with the High Priest entering the Tabernacle/Temple's Holy of Holies humbled to just his plain white tunic, coming before God as a representatitve / intercessor for all Israel. It was a very communal concept.

Of course we have a better HIgh Priest in Yeshua. He went to the Heavenly Holy of Holies as a representative / intercessor for His chosen ones before the Father. And continues to this day to make blood atonement for us. How much better is His sacrifice that purchased us? How much better is our High Priest? How much more do we owe our obedience to Him?

Walstib
Feb 13th 2009, 03:35 AM
Hi Keck,

It is a wonderful thing to find agreement in Christ.:pp

Leviticus 16 is one of my favs in the Pentateuch and goes so well with Hebrews 8-10. The perfect sacrifice getting right down deep to the conscience and leaving no doubt of what dead works are as we have personal guidance from the Holy Spirit. That we can draw near with a sincere heart to the throne of grace... Hallelujah!

I would go so far as to say we owe Him more than our obedience but our absolutely everything.

Peace,
Joe

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2009, 09:55 AM
FF, Up to this point I have given a very plausible explanation of how this "covenant" is represented by Hagar. The result of the union between Abraham and Hagar was an attempt of man doing things his way. The written Torah that was initiated at Mount Sinai had been added to throughout the years so that it was no longer the pure Torah given by God, but was again, man's attempt to do things his way and had become a stumbling block in the now Jerusalem to new believers. I think this is the proper interpretation of this passage, because is not descriptive of the Torah that I know.

Up to this point, you have yet to supply an answer as to how Hagar and Ishmael relate to or could possibly represent God's Torah in this allegory. Therefore, until you do I see no further reason to continue this discussion.

Blessings,
BHS

Hi BHS,

I must appologize as I meant to say that Hagar represents the law that is contained in the Torah.

This is what I meant to say;

The covenant that Hagar represents the law contained in the Torah. The covenant is what was given at mount Sinai?

The covenant given at mount Sinai it what was written on tables of stone, that which was written on tables of stone are the commandments.

Does everything that is written/contained in the Torah apply today, if not doe that mean the whole Torah is not applicable?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 13th 2009, 04:52 PM
Ff, Torah is not a covenant. Until we all can come to terms with that, we'll going to be bouncing off the wall.

as to your question, does "Love God" and "Love your neighbor" still apply today?

Firstfruits
Feb 13th 2009, 07:55 PM
Ff, Torah is not a covenant. Until we all can come to terms with that, we'll going to be bouncing off the wall.

as to your question, does "Love God" and "Love your neighbor" still apply today?

The Torah contains all the covenants that God has made, The Torah is not the covenant, The Torah contains all the prophesies concerning Christ but the Torah is not all about Christ. The Torah contains all Gods teachings but the Torah is not just Gods teachings.

God sent Jesus to give us his word, God said that we must hear what Jesus said.

Jn 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jn 15:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) These things I command you, that ye love one another.

This is not what fulfils the law of Moses, it fulfils the law of Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Feb 13th 2009, 10:53 PM
I agree, but would like to clarify on one point. God didn't send His Son to give us His word. God already did that at Sinai and through the prophets and patriarchs. God's word was already established in Torah scrolls and writings we commonly know as the Tanach. Yeshua is the word come to life. He showed us how to live it, not just read and do it.

Firstfruits
Feb 14th 2009, 12:48 PM
I agree, but would like to clarify on one point. God didn't send His Son to give us His word. God already did that at Sinai and through the prophets and patriarchs. God's word was already established in Torah scrolls and writings we commonly know as the Tanach. Yeshua is the word come to life. He showed us how to live it, not just read and do it.

Regarding your statement; God didn't send His Son to give us His word.

The following scriptures show otherwise.

Mt 17:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19.
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Act 3:22-26.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Jn 17:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Jn 17:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Jn 12:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Moses was the mediator of the covenant made at Mount Sinai, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant.

Heb 12:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

As you can see Jesus was sent to give us Gods word.

God bless you!

Firstfruits