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Powerof3
Feb 4th 2009, 03:59 AM
Two things I have wondered for years....but things I would never ask out loud for fear of being stared at....with....that look.
1. What is the time frame between Genesis 1:1 and Gen.1:2?
2. The Fall of Lucifer was BEFORE the Fall of Man......right? Where do the Dinosaurs fit in?

Just some random thought....I can't find anything on either...so any thoughts?

CommanderRobey
Feb 4th 2009, 04:10 AM
1. Some time between evening and evening on the first day of creation.
2. On the same day that all the other land animals were created.

Powerof3
Feb 4th 2009, 04:21 AM
Wait...where does that info come from? The Genesis verse.... I haven't been able to put time frame together with any other verses....help. And the Dinosaurs...what to read on them? Seems like something's missing there...what with Noah and all. I'm leaning toward the Dinosaurs being the angels that were cast out of Heaven.....and please don't laugh if I'm way off! Just some reading recommendations, please!

markedward
Feb 4th 2009, 04:23 AM
1. What is the time frame between Genesis 1:1 and Gen.1:2?There is none. It's a narrative. Genesis 1:1 is the "plot setup" for the creation account, Genesis 1:2 is the actual starting. (Trying to read anything into the text between these two verses is pure eisegesis. There is no "ruin-reconstruction" going on here.)


2. The Fall of Lucifer was BEFORE the Fall of Man......right? Where do the Dinosaurs fit in?1. "Lucifer" was not the "pre-fall" name of Satan. "Lucifer" isn't even a name, it's an adjective applied to a human king.

2. Revelation 12 depicts the exile of Satan from heaven as taking place after the ascension of Christ into heaven. Now, Scripture does, of course, plainly say that Satan was sinful "since the beginning", but it also plainly says that he wasn't exiled or kicked out of heaven until after Christ's ascension.

3. What do dinosaurs have to do with the fall of Satan? For that matter, why should we assume that the Bible is going to set aside a particular section for discussing dinosaurs? The Bible is about God and His relationship with mankind; anything said about animals, let alone dinosaurs, will be miscellaneous, not specific.

Powerof3
Feb 4th 2009, 04:33 AM
I'm sorry if this is elementary...because that's about what my Bible education is right now. I thought that Lucifer was a brilliant beautiful angel...that was cast down from Heaven because of his jealousy of God. Also, that he and his menions were transformed from angels into "beasts"......which I thought how poetic would it be to go from brilliant and beautiful to a large, scaley flesh eating creature. Anyway, the serpent in the Garden..... ? Fall of Satan before Fall of Man?

chad
Feb 4th 2009, 04:40 AM
Lucifer the Dinosaur? Hmmmm .... thats something to think about...


Wait...where does that info come from? The Genesis verse.... I haven't been able to put time frame together with any other verses....help. And the Dinosaurs...what to read on them? Seems like something's missing there...what with Noah and all. I'm leaning toward the Dinosaurs being the angels that were cast out of Heaven.....and please don't laugh if I'm way off! Just some reading recommendations, please!

Powerof3
Feb 4th 2009, 04:45 AM
Mark Edward posted "ruin-reconstruction" above....that's the stuff I'm talking about!!!! What is that? Where is it from? Is it from a Christian source? Alot of things could be discussed between the verses of the Bible... but is it not for us to do?

Butch5
Feb 4th 2009, 05:00 AM
Two things I have wondered for years....but things I would never ask out loud for fear of being stared at....with....that look.
1. What is the time frame between Genesis 1:1 and Gen.1:2?
2. The Fall of Lucifer was BEFORE the Fall of Man......right? Where do the Dinosaurs fit in?

Just some random thought....I can't find anything on either...so any thoughts?

The dinosaurs behemoth and leviathan can be referenced in Job, chapters 40 adn 41.

bennie
Feb 4th 2009, 05:32 AM
I'm sorry if this is elementary...because that's about what my Bible education is right now. I thought that Lucifer was a brilliant beautiful angel...that was cast down from Heaven because of his jealousy of God. Also, that he and his menions were transformed from angels into "beasts"......which I thought how poetic would it be to go from brilliant and beautiful to a large, scaley flesh eating creature. Anyway, the serpent in the Garden..... ? Fall of Satan before Fall of Man?

satan became sinfull. but he still had access to heaven. We can see that in Job. He was finally cast out/ forbidden in heaven, when Jesus accended to heaven.
About dinosours, i dont know.

bennie

awestruckchild
Feb 4th 2009, 05:32 AM
If you went to a public school like I did you have been brainwashed with the whole evolution thing and were taught that the earth was billions or millions of years old instead of thousands. Seems to me we have to let go of all that "teaching" and realize that whatever they declare about the "fossil record" is just them trying to explain without the necessity of God and the flood, how the layers came about. Jesus seemed to take the book of Genesis very literally (for instance, when He was teaching on divorce) so how do we dare to say it isn't to be taken literally? If you are looking for some sort of million year time gap between vss. 1 and 2, it is because you have accepted as fact what you have been taught when really it is all just theories. Their theories do not have to be fit into the bible, which is fact, to make the bible work. I don't understand why christians feel if scientific theories cannot be made to fit with the facts of the bible, then it must not be taken literally! Remember, in science they begin with a theory and then look for evidence to support it. Much safer to start with the truth God gave us, don't you think? An interesting read for you would in fact be Darwins theory. He himself saw the glaring problems in the theory and fought against it even being published until he felt he could prove it, which before his death, he admitted he never did!

As far as the dinosaurs go, freaky, huh? It fascinates me!
Nice to meet you by the way!

EvangMike
Feb 4th 2009, 06:31 AM
Powerof3 - Hi.

No gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2.

Concerning Satan's fall - The Bible does not reveal how much time there was between creation and the Fall - it could have been a long time - possibly months (years?). Anyway, this is plenty of time to allow Satan's fall.

Dinosaurs are created creatures meant to live in this world only. Angels - even fallen ones - are spirit beings - who exist forever.

Hope this helps,
EvangMike

Partaker of Christ
Feb 4th 2009, 03:09 PM
What we today call dinosaurs, could have been called 'dragons' in those days.

It is said, that some animals never stop growing (such as crocodiles). Before the flood man lived to very old age, so we could assume that animals also lived to a very old age. That could account for some of these animals being huge in size.

BroRog
Feb 4th 2009, 06:53 PM
Two things I have wondered for years....but things I would never ask out loud for fear of being stared at....with....that look.
1. What is the time frame between Genesis 1:1 and Gen.1:2?
2. The Fall of Lucifer was BEFORE the Fall of Man......right? Where do the Dinosaurs fit in?

Just some random thought....I can't find anything on either...so any thoughts?

1. Some have said, and I agree, that Genesis 1:1 is merely the title of the book. So there is no time between verse 1 and verse 2.

2. Lucifer isn't a person, it's a description coming from Isaiah 14:12, in which God says Israel will take up a taunt against "the star of the morning." Somewhere along the way someone has taken figurative language about Babylon literally and mistakenly thought this passage was talking about Satan.

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 07:22 PM
The dinosaurs behemoth and leviathan can be referenced in Job, chapters 40 adn 41.


It is only interpretation that renders these characters into Dinosaurs.

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 07:23 PM
2. Lucifer isn't a person, it's a description coming from Isaiah 14:12, in which God says Israel will take up a taunt against "the star of the morning." Somewhere along the way someone has taken figurative language about Babylon literally and mistakenly thought this passage was talking about Satan.


I believe that would be the church fathers.

Walstib
Feb 4th 2009, 07:38 PM
Hi Powerof3,

Welcome to the board. I encourage you to post in the introduction forum here. (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=19)

I'm sure with those two questions you will see a number of views come up. :)

Just to let you know to your can read past discussions on this stuff to by searching the site... if you want a few weeks worth of reading that is. Then I think you will have enough replies here to keep you busy. ;)

oneinthespirit
Feb 4th 2009, 08:58 PM
Two things I have wondered for years....but things I would never ask out loud for fear of being stared at....with....that look.
1. What is the time frame between Genesis 1:1 and Gen.1:2?
2. The Fall of Lucifer was BEFORE the Fall of Man......right? Where do the Dinosaurs fit in?

Just some random thought....I can't find anything on either...so any thoughts?

Hey
Power of 3,
I believe dinos were never roaming the earth together with humans. Dinos were here roaming earth, and were destroyed WAY before humans were created. Science can prove that by testing bones. I'm not a science person but I do believe that computers are build not to lie when combining certain chemicals for testing right?
Gen 1:1 states that God created heavens and earth. And thats exactly what he did. Angels in heaven, dinos on earth. What God does he does perfect. Why then does vs. 2 say the earth was without FORM, and VOID? void - Not occupied; unfilled. Completely lacking. He would have created everything perfect at one time like he did Heaven.
To make this short, Lucifer WAS an Angel of Light, the most Beautiful one of them all. He sinned, and was casted down to earth which was already being occupied. Remember he came down mad, because he did't get what he wanted.
I believe he came down with an uncontrolable anger and wiped the earth clean of all its existing matters.

Ever heard that the dinos were destroyed by a meteor? Well lucifer was the meteor. Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

So the time frame between Vs 1 & 2 could millions to billions of years.
I hope I don't get kicked off this thread for stating my opinion.

Gulah Papyrus
Feb 4th 2009, 09:28 PM
Hey
Power of 3,
I believe dinos were never roaming the earth together with humans. Dinos were here roaming earth, and were destroyed WAY before humans were created. Science can prove that by testing bones. I'm not a science person but I do believe that computers are build not to lie when combining certain chemicals for testing right?
Gen 1:1 states that God created heavens and earth. And thats exactly what he did. Angels in heaven, dinos on earth. What God does he does perfect. Why then does vs. 2 say the earth was without FORM, and VOID? void - Not occupied; unfilled. Completely lacking. He would have created everything perfect at one time like he did Heaven.
To make this short, Lucifer WAS an Angel of Light, the most Beautiful one of them all. He sinned, and was casted down to earth which was already being occupied. Remember he came down mad, because he did't get what he wanted.
I believe he came down with an uncontrolable anger and wiped the earth clean of all its existing matters.

Ever heard that the dinos were destroyed by a meteor? Well lucifer was the meteor. Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

So the time frame between Vs 1 & 2 could millions to billions of years.
I hope I don't get kicked off this thread for stating my opinion.

You won't. I don't lean either way on the "Gap Theory". It is certainly possible, but I don't believe it can/should be used to justify Darwinian evolution.

Here is an interesting breakdown(video) of how one might use scripture to justify the Gap Theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a22jsn6U930
(this is part 1. Parts 2-4 can be found to the right of the page)

bosco
Feb 4th 2009, 09:40 PM
Two things I have wondered for years....but things I would never ask out loud for fear of being stared at....with....that look.
1. What is the time frame between Genesis 1:1 and Gen.1:2?
2. The Fall of Lucifer was BEFORE the Fall of Man......right? Where do the Dinosaurs fit in?

Just some random thought....I can't find anything on either...so any thoughts?

1. 1 day. Not at all trying to make this a Sabbath thread, but Hebrews 4 talks about a day of rest. Scripture concerning Sabbath is clear that 6 days of work followed by a day of rest is what God ordained. So Hebrews says when we cease from our works, as "God did his" we are to rest. Since our days are literal 24 hour days, I personally believe so were each days of creation.
2. Dino's were created with all the rest of the animals.

Satan's fall seems to be before man. Even in attacking Job, he had to go to heaven and ask...so his place was already somewhere else.

Bosco

bosco
Feb 4th 2009, 09:45 PM
Hey
Power of 3,
I believe dinos were never roaming the earth together with humans. Dinos were here roaming earth, and were destroyed WAY before humans were created. Science can prove that by testing bones. I'm not a science person but I do believe that computers are build not to lie when combining certain chemicals for testing right?
Gen 1:1 states that God created heavens and earth. And thats exactly what he did. Angels in heaven, dinos on earth. What God does he does perfect. Why then does vs. 2 say the earth was without FORM, and VOID? void - Not occupied; unfilled. Completely lacking. He would have created everything perfect at one time like he did Heaven.
To make this short, Lucifer WAS an Angel of Light, the most Beautiful one of them all. He sinned, and was casted down to earth which was already being occupied. Remember he came down mad, because he did't get what he wanted.
I believe he came down with an uncontrolable anger and wiped the earth clean of all its existing matters.

Ever heard that the dinos were destroyed by a meteor? Well lucifer was the meteor. Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

So the time frame between Vs 1 & 2 could millions to billions of years.
I hope I don't get kicked off this thread for stating my opinion.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth, consisting out of water and through water,

It is just as likely that God made everything look older than it was. Just as Adam was not created as a baby but carried the appearance of a man 20-30 years old....even when he was a day old.

Bosco

Powerof3
Feb 4th 2009, 11:06 PM
These were some incredible replies and I greatly appreciate them! Thanks for the reading material.... seems to be a wealth of knowledge here! Thanks all.

ross3421
Feb 5th 2009, 12:03 AM
And the Dinosaurs...what to read on them? Seems like something's missing there...what with Noah and all. I'm leaning toward the Dinosaurs being the angels that were cast out of Heaven.....and please don't laugh if I'm way off! Just some reading recommendations, please!

Not a laughing matter......

I believe that animals were indwelt with demonic spirits ie fallen angels at the time of Noah. In fact creation was indwelt whereby offspring aberrations of species including man occurred. From the NT we do see that it is possible for animals to contain these spirits. Thus the dinosaurs as well as man became evil and had to be destroyed.

Mark

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 12:12 AM
I guess I'll be the first to jump in pro-gap.

I believe that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Then after a huge period of time, the earth became without form and void.

I do not back evolution, nor am I trying to find time for it.

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 12:17 AM
I guess I'll be the first to jump in pro-gap.

I believe that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Then after a huge period of time, the earth became without form and void.

I do not back evolution, nor am I trying to find time for it.Scripture does not say the earth became without form and void. To say it became without form and void adds to the Word of God.

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 12:31 AM
Scripture does not say the earth became without form and void. To say it became without form and void adds to the Word of God.

Absolutely it says it became. You may think I am adding to the word of God, but only to what you consider to be the Word of God and not the actual Word of God.

KJV?

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 12:43 AM
Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Where is the word 'became' found in these verese? I have yet to see it. As a matter of fact, the word 'became' does not appear in the Word of God until the next chapter.

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 12:59 AM
Where is the word 'became' found in these verese? I have yet to see it. As a matter of fact, the word 'became' does not appear in the Word of God until the next chapter.

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201;&version=31;#fen-NIV-2a)] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

a. Genesis 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201;&version=31;#en-NIV-2) Or possibly became

Hayah is used here and translated as "was", however, in every case the word hayah is used in Genesis "became" is a better fit and it is never again translated as "was".

Gulah Papyrus
Feb 5th 2009, 01:17 AM
Where is the word 'became' found in these verese? I have yet to see it. As a matter of fact, the word 'became' does not appear in the Word of God until the next chapter.

The Hebrew word hayah ('was' in Genesis 1:2) is a transitive verb. It is the same word used when Lot's wife became a pillar of salt in Gen 19:26. It implies an active transition. Some Hebrew scholars even argue that it can mean 'had become'.

divaD
Feb 5th 2009, 04:05 AM
I guess I'll be the first to jump in pro-gap.

I believe that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Then after a huge period of time, the earth became without form and void.

I do not back evolution, nor am I trying to find time for it.



Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 *And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Perhaps it's just my warped reasoning, but this passage sure doesn't seem to Jive with a gap of millions, if not billions of years between verse 1 and 2.

If all of these have been put into their respective places on day 4, and this would include the sun, the moon, and the stars, then where were these during the gap or even before the gap? Now if you answer that they were recreated for some bizarre reason, then you're simply admitting that the sun, the moon, and the stars have their beginning from creation day 4, yet at the same time you're claiming that the earth had it's beginning millions, perhaps billions of years before day 4 because of the time gap.

I would like any gap believer to explain with Scripture where day 4 of creation works perfectly with this assumed gap.

The thing is, even if the earth were an actual recreation, it didn't go anywhere. So how does one explain what happened to the sun, the moon, and the stars before creation day 4?

Let me guess tho. The sun, the moon, and the stars weren't necessarry in the prev earth age. Perhaps you need to relay that to scientists and astronomers. Don't they believe these have been there for billions of yrs also?

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 04:25 AM
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 *And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Perhaps it's just my warped reasoning, but this passage sure doesn't seem to Jive with a gap of millions, if not billions of years between verse 1 and 2.

If all of these have been put into their respective places on day 4, and this would include the sun, the moon, and the stars, then where were these during the gap or even before the gap? Now if you answer that they were recreated for some bizarre reason, then you're simply admitting that the sun, the moon, and the stars have their beginning from creation day 4, yet at the same time you're claiming that the earth had it's beginning millions, perhaps billions of years before day 4 because of the time gap.

I would like any gap believer to explain with Scripture where day 4 of creation works perfectly with this assumed gap.

The thing is, even if the earth were an actual recreation, it didn't go anywhere. So how does one explain what happened to the sun, the moon, and the stars before creation day 4?

Let me guess tho. The sun, the moon, and the stars weren't necessarry in the prev earth age. Perhaps you need to relay that to scientists and astronomers. Don't they believe these have been there for billions of yrs also?
If we are to believe the gap theory, the civilization that lived prior to day two must have walked around bumping into each other quite often. Or did they have blind man's canes?

Truth is, darkness is the absence of light. with no light shining down on the earth, there would be no vegetation, for vegetation only grows in the light (except for fungi such as mushrooms. Maybe every body and all these animals ate mushrooms for a living?)

Fact is, there is no gap between the first day and the second day. There is no gap between the first verse of Genesis one and Genesis two.

The gap is a myth made up by someone who did not believe God's Holy Word.

divaD
Feb 5th 2009, 05:00 PM
Truth is, darkness is the absence of light. with no light shining down on the earth, there would be no vegetation, for vegetation only grows in the light (except for fungi such as mushrooms. Maybe every body and all these animals ate mushrooms for a living?)




Perhaps this explains why all of those dinosaurs from hundreds of millions of years ago died out and became extint. http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

BroRog
Feb 5th 2009, 06:10 PM
The thing about gaps is this. You can fill the gap with anything you want and who can challenge you? :) I don't believe a gap of time exists between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2, but if one existed, the Bible is silent about what took place then. And since it is silent, maybe we shouldn't attempt to guess.

Gulah Papyrus
Feb 5th 2009, 09:13 PM
The gap is a myth made up by someone who did not believe God's Holy Word.

Who made it up? Or are you just making that up?:rolleyes:

chad
Feb 5th 2009, 11:09 PM
The gap theory was made up by a 17th Century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_theory



Who made it up? Or are you just making that up?:rolleyes:

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 5th 2009, 11:47 PM
It's not for nothing that the land of the Dutch is called the Nether-lands... :D

And that from somebody who was born there... ;)

CommanderRobey
Feb 6th 2009, 12:17 AM
The gap theory faces a real problem in the New Testament. Paul tells us in Romans 5:12 and in Romans 8:20-22 that death was the result of man's sin, even the death of animals. But gap theorists would have us believing Adam was walking on top of a gigantic fossilized animal graveyard.

BrckBrln
Feb 6th 2009, 02:56 AM
The gap theory faces a real problem in the New Testament. Paul tells us in Romans 5:12 and in Romans 8:20-22 that death was the result of man's sin, even the death of animals. But gap theorists would have us believing Adam was walking on top of a gigantic fossilized animal graveyard.

You might want to take another look at those texts because they make no mention of animal death. In fact, Romans 5:12 explicitly says that death spread to all men, not animals.

Gulah Papyrus
Feb 6th 2009, 03:13 AM
The gap theory was made up by a 17th Century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_theory

Well, before James Hutton first postulated that the earth was formed by an ancient progression of natural events in 1785, the common view was that the earth was just over 4000 years old...so, what science was Episcapius trying to fit the Genesis creation account into via the Gap Theory?:hmm:

It would seem it was just an honest quest for truth rather than him 'not believing in the holy word of God'.

Gulah Papyrus
Feb 6th 2009, 03:39 AM
But gap theorists would have us believing Adam was walking on top of a gigantic fossilized animal graveyard.Not true. The Gap Theory simply implies that there was a 'fallen world'(of angels/churbim) between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 that came under judgement. It does not suggest that macro evolution took place during this time, but that this is when Satan fell etc.