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Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 07:48 AM
Is the law of liberty either;

a, Freedom to break Gods law?

or

b, freedom from the law?

There would have been a "c" but it leads back to "a".

Please supply scriptures when answering.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

The Parson
Feb 4th 2009, 01:24 PM
Gee, I always thought the Law of Liberty was the scriptures. James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 02:03 PM
Gee, I always thought the Law of Liberty was the scriptures. James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Thanks The Parson,

With regards to the following, which scriptures concerning the law would you be reffering to?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Rom 8:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

The Parson
Feb 4th 2009, 02:34 PM
The verses in James my friend which deal solely with the scriptures. That is if we are we dealing with semantics? Did I misunderstand the premise? Or are we talking about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which is intertwined with the verses in James.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 02:44 PM
The verses in James my friend which deal solely with the scriptures. That is if we are we dealing with semantics? Did I misunderstand the premise? Or are we talking about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which is intertwined with the verses in James.

I agree that the law of the spirit in Christ is interwined in the verses in James but how do they apply to my question?

Is the law of liberty either;

a, Freedom to break Gods law?

or

b, freedom from the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 03:46 PM
your choices do not cover the heart of what James is writing. The answer is there is only one Law to look into. The same word that was spoke from the beginning. Messiah made the same law into the perfect law of liberty.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 03:49 PM
your choices do not cover the heart of what James is writing. The answer is there is only one Law to look into. The same word that was spoke from the beginning. Messiah made the same law into the perfect law of liberty.

Can you please supply scriptures regarding what you have said?

Thanks

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 04:21 PM
Can you please supply scriptures regarding what you have said?

Thanks

Firstfruits

all red text are references to Torah commands.


James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word (the law is written on our hearts - the New Covenant), which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves (this is the biblcal definition of "Hear -shema- O Israel" {hear and do}).
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer (the only Word to hear at this time was the 'OT'), he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty (looking into refers to looking into a law that already exists), and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (torah commands)

James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Here, James speaks about violating Torah commands (thou shalt not) that hurt our others. He constantly quotes Torah commands and reiterates that we should love others, thus making the negative commands into something positive.
For example: Exodus 22:22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child. This is a negative command (to not do something) and violating this command makes one a trasngressor of the Law. In Chapter 1, James takes this negative command and makes it a positive command by saying that we should not only not do something, but there is something to do regarding orphans and widows by referring to the numerous positive commands regarding orphans and widows, thus speaking of the perfect Law of Liberty.


James 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver (One lawgiver who gave one law, not two contradictory laws), who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 04:29 PM
all red text are references to Torah commands.


James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word (the law is written on our hearts - the New Covenant), which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves (this is the biblcal definition of "Hear -shema- O Israel" {hear and do}).
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer (the only Word to hear at this time was the 'OT'), he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty (looking into refers to looking into a law that already exists), and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (torah commands)

James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Here, James speaks about violating Torah commands (thou shalt not) that hurt our others. He constantly quotes Torah commands and reiterates that we should love others, thus making the negative commands into something positive.
For example: Exodus 22:22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child. This is a negative command (to not do something) and violating this command makes one a trasngressor of the Law. In Chapter 1, James takes this negative command and makes it a positive command by saying that we should not only not do something, but there is something to do regarding orphans and widows by referring to the numerous positive commands regarding orphans and widows, thus speaking of the perfect Law of Liberty.


James 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver (One lawgiver who gave one law, not two contradictory laws), who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

That is a very strong description of the law of Christ if I may say so.

Gal 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

What do you think?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 05:26 PM
That is a very strong description of the law of Christ if I may say so.

Gal 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

What do you think?

Firstfruits

Yes, I will agree. The law was made liberty by Messiah. In a time when Judah was more concerned with outward appearance regarding law, Messiah and his disciples taught the love foundation of law.

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 4th 2009, 06:10 PM
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only not [U]liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul is writing to the Galatians here who had been 'bewitched' by a certain group of people who tried to bring Born Again Christiains back 'under the Law'... being Justified by it.. attaining a 'rightouesness' on their own.. when Christ has Fullfilled the Law... they did this and this making the Work of the Cross 'null' and 'void'.. and he flat out told them that if your trying to be Justified by the Law again.. after what Christ has done and completed .. you have fallen from Grace.....


The Law of Liberty is freedom from the 'condemnation' that comes along with man's inablitiy to fullfill the Law on his own power.. because the 'flesh is weak'.. Christ fulfilled and accomplished what man could never do in Fullfilling the Law in Perfection in His flesh..

Back then there were certain groups that would 'creep' in unawares 'spying' on the Liberty which was given to those Born Again from above.. those In Christ.. Trusting in His Completed Work on the Cross... obviously these people that were spying were still trying to fulfill and adhere to the Law.. which under their beliefs made them Righteous... where as Christians were made Righteouss by Faith in what Jesus Accomplished.. These 'spies' were probably harrassing those Christians and pointing the finger as to why they weren't doing this and doing that.. or they 'had' to do this to be Righteous or do 'that'... bringing them 'under condemnation'.. when In Christ and walking in the Spirit... THERE IS NONE!

Freedom is 'walking in the Spirit'... and here there is No Condemnation'.. what so ever... those spies or Galatians who had bewitched those believers.. must of decieved those believers that they could attain righteousness thru their 'fleshly' works... instead of being led and motiviated by the Spirit of Christ..


What went on back then is no different today... If your walking in the Spirit you will be persecuted by those who 'still' Hold to the Law and that you as a person must fullfill it in its entirety....

Paul wept on occasion because he came to the Revelation that there are distinct 'enemies' to the Cross of Christ.. I believe this group of people is one of them... those who try to bring those Free In Christ.. back under the rudiments of the Law.. bringing them under Condemnation.. again when there is NONE..

Those who Abide in Christ.. and are Led by Him.. and Led by The Spirit.. will Love their neighbor as thyself... they will do this in Liberty and Freedom because Christ did it... and in this is the Law Fulfilled... not trying to achieve something in the power of the flesh which you will never be able to attain.. and what SOMEBODY has already fulfilled in His Own Flesh.. which was Perfect and Had No Sin...

Paul was 'spot on' when he revealed thru the Spirit that there are those who are led of the Spirit and Born of the Spirit (Born from Above) and that they would be persecuted by those who are born of the flesh... One need not go very far to see that in full bloom...

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 07:17 PM
when Christ has Fullfilled the Law... they did this and this making the Work of the Cross 'null' and 'void'.. and he flat out told them that if your trying to be Justified by the Law again.. after what Christ has done and completed .. you have fallen from Grace.....


Actually, It was not a matter of being justified by the law "again." no flesh was ever justified by the law. Justification was not the correct understanding of the Law, and this errant thinking is exactly what Messiah and Saul spoke against.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 07:32 PM
Yes, I will agree. The law was made liberty by Messiah. In a time when Judah was more concerned with outward appearance regarding law, Messiah and his disciples taught the love foundation of law.

Would you also agree that the fulfilment of the law of Christ and the fulfilment of the law given to Moses are not the same?

Unless by the law made liberty by Messiah means that we are at liberty not to keep all that is written in the Mosaic law, or that we are free from the Mosaic law as no one can keep it.

Hence my question?

Is the law of liberty either;

a, Freedom to break Gods law?

or

b, freedom from the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 08:09 PM
Would you also agree that the fulfilment of the law of Christ and the fulfilment of the law given to Moses are not the same?

Unless by the law made liberty by Messiah means that we are at liberty not to keep all that is written in the Mosaic law, or that we are free from the Mosaic law as no one can keep it.

Hence my question?

Is the law of liberty either;

a, Freedom to break Gods law?

or

b, freedom from the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


c. none of the above.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 08:23 PM
c. none of the above.

Is this law of Christ complete or not complete with regards to your description?

Gal 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jas 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

If this is incomplete then what is there that would make it complete, knowing that the law could not do what Christ did.

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 08:27 PM
Is this law of Christ complete or not complete with regards to your description?


If we fulfill the law of Messiah, is it no longer needed in our lives?

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 08:35 PM
If we fulfill the law of Messiah, is it no longer needed in our lives?

So with regards to the following scriptures, were the Galatians wrong to try and depend on both?

Col 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 4:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 08:56 PM
So with regards to the following scriptures, were the Galatians wrong to try and depend on both?

Col 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 4:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Depend? Why would we place or dependance in obedience?

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 10:03 PM
Depend? Why would we place or dependance in obedience?

The Galatians were warned that they had fallen from grace by trying to keep both the law and also follow the Spirit, did they not believe that they could do without the law? Or that The messiah was enough?

Firstfruits

reformedct
Feb 4th 2009, 10:08 PM
Is the law of liberty either;

a, Freedom to break Gods law?

or

b, freedom from the law?

There would have been a "c" but it leads back to "a".

Please supply scriptures when answering.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


it means we are free from having a works based relationship with God, based on the law, offering sacrifices and offerings and such in order to be righteous before God. It in no way means that we are free to break laws that is called liscence to sin. the Bible clearly says we should not sin so that grace may abound. it means that we are free to enjoy and experience Gods love fully and freely on the basis of Christs work not our personal sacrifices of obedience or offerings. That doesnt mean we are free to sin. If the Spirit is in you, and you have died to sin, how can you continue in it?

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 10:12 PM
it means we are free from having a works based relationship with God, based on the law, offering sacrifices and offerings and such in order to be righteous before God. It in no way means that we are free to break laws that is called liscence to sin. the Bible clearly says we should not sin so that grace may abound. it means that we are free to enjoy and experience Gods love fully and freely on the basis of Christs work not our personal sacrifices of obedience or offerings. That doesnt mean we are free to sin. If the Spirit is in you, and you have died to sin, how can you continue in it?

Thank you reformedct,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 4th 2009, 10:19 PM
it means we are free from having a works based relationship with God, based on the law, offering sacrifices and offerings and such in order to be righteous before God. It in no way means that we are free to break laws that is called liscence to sin. the Bible clearly says we should not sin so that grace may abound. it means that we are free to enjoy and experience Gods love fully and freely on the basis of Christs work not our personal sacrifices of obedience or offerings. That doesnt mean we are free to sin. If the Spirit is in you, and you have died to sin, how can you continue in it?
------------------------------------------------------------------

Spot on.. you put it in better words than I did.. thanks

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 10:40 PM
The Galatians were warned that they had fallen from grace by trying to keep both the law and also follow the Spirit, Firstfruits


Can you show me the scripture for this?

Emanate
Feb 4th 2009, 10:42 PM
. If the Spirit is in you, and you have died to sin, how can you continue in it?


So if we have the Spirit, then we are to die to sin, but our lives will resemble what was previously sin, but now is not?

The Parson
Feb 4th 2009, 11:47 PM
Gosh, sorry I missed the conversation. Been outta commission today. Well said you two.

I thought you might have even touched on: Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 12:21 AM
Is the law of liberty either;

a, Freedom to break Gods law?

or

b, freedom from the law?

There would have been a "c" but it leads back to "a".

Please supply scriptures when answering.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

If C is a choice, then so is this.

I'll take both. A & B.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 09:08 AM
Can you show me the scripture for this?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Does that help?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 09:16 AM
If C is a choice, then so is this.

I'll take both. A & B.

My "c" would have been this;

Is the law of liberty freedom to keep the law as given to Moses? but that led back to "a" since we cannot keep all that is commanded therein, therefore by keeping a part and not the whole meant that we are breaking the whole.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Which is why I left my "c" out.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 02:21 PM
Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Does that help?

Firstfruits


None of these scriptures condemn the Galatians for trying to keep the law. These scriptures condemn the attempt to be justified by the law.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 02:41 PM
None of these scriptures condemn the Galatians for trying to keep the law. These scriptures condemn the attempt to be justified by the law.

Does that mean that they did not need to keep the law since they already had the Spirit?

Gal 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Only by attempting to keep the law can they have been told that they were fallen from grace.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 03:15 PM
Does that mean that they did not need to keep the law since they already had the Spirit?

Gal 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Only by attempting to keep the law can they have been told that they were fallen from grace.

Firstfruits


You appear to be missing the word "justified" in there. Seriously, it is there. the object is not the law, it is "being justified by the law"

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 03:41 PM
You appear to be missing the word "justified" in there. Seriously, it is there. the object is not the law, it is "being justified by the law"

If there is therefore no justification in doing what is written in the law why would they need to keep it?

What would be the point, there is no justification.

Would you do something to which there is no reason for doing?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 04:01 PM
If there is therefore no justification in doing what is written in the law why would they need to keep it?

What would be the point, there is no justification.

Would you do something to which there is no reason for doing?

Firstfruits


Obedience does not justify. The law has NEVER justified, nor was it ever intended to speak of Justification. Feeding the poor does not justify, should we then forsake the poor?

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 04:02 PM
We are told that we shall be judged by the law of liberty;

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

We are also told that we are not under the law;

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

So what law are we following and will be judged by, knowing that we are not under the law?

What is the law of Liberty?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 04:07 PM
We are told that we shall be judged by the law of liberty;

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

We are also told that we are not under the law;

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

So what law are we following and will be judged by, knowing that we are not under the law?

What is the law of Liberty?

Firstfruits


Is this the point where we start reposting, starting at post #1? Ok. We are justified by faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? No, we establish the law.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 04:24 PM
Obedience does not justify. The law has NEVER justified, nor was it ever intended to speak of Justification. Feeding the poor does not justify, should we then forsake the poor?

But loving thy neighbour according to The Messiah fulfils the law, which if you talk about feeding the poor is covered therein is it not?

What is missing if you have fulfilled the law by loving thy neighbour?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 04:27 PM
But loving thy neighbour according to The Messiah fulfils the law, which if you talk about feeding the poor is covered therein is it not?

What is missing if you have fulfilled the law by loving thy neighbour?

Firstfruits


As the wheel spins.

Loving your neighbor is a command in the law. Jewish teaching before Y'shua taught that loving your neighbor fulfilled the law. The law defines how to love your neighbor.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 04:32 PM
As the wheel spins.

Loving your neighbor is a command in the law. Jewish teaching before Y'shua taught that loving your neighbor fulfilled the law. The law defines how to love your neighbor.

So if you are loving your neighbour as Christ has commanded what therefore is missing?

Are we complete without the Mosaic law through Christ?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 04:35 PM
So if you are loving your neighbour as Christ has commanded what therefore is missing?

Firstfruits


uh, what? who is missing?

Clydson
Feb 5th 2009, 04:38 PM
We are told that we shall be judged by the law of liberty;

What is the law of Liberty?

Firstfruits
It is the law of Jesus the High Priest;

Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
NKJV

All ordinances issued by the High Priest during his tenure is the law of liberty. This law is also known as the law of Christ, the law of righteousness, the apostles' doctrine, the gospel of Christ and the law of faith, etc. It is this law that Jesus uses to mediate the new covenant, Hebrews chapter nine.

Jake

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 04:46 PM
uh, what? who is missing?

If we have recieved the Spirit by faith in Christ and walk therin, we are we complete in the will of God?

Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 04:48 PM
It is the law of Jesus the High Priest;

Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
NKJV

All ordinances issued by the High Priest during his tenure is the law of liberty. This law is also known as the law of Christ, the law of righteousness, the apostles' doctrine, the gospel of Christ and the law of faith, etc. It is this law that Jesus uses to mediate the new covenant, Hebrews chapter nine.

Jake

Thanks Jake,

So it is through the gospel of Christ as given by the apostle by which we shall be judged, is that right?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Clydson
Feb 5th 2009, 05:34 PM
Thanks Jake,

So it is through the gospel of Christ as given by the apostle by which we shall be judged, is that right?

God bless you!

Firstfruits
That's the way I understand it;

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 07:07 PM
If we have recieved the Spirit by faith in Christ and walk therin, we are we complete in the will of God?

Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Thanks,

Firstfruits


Yes, but I do not see Law as being conformed to this world.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 08:17 PM
Yes, but I do not see Law as being conformed to this world.

Considering the fact that the law is reffered to as the flesh you could not get any closer to the world.

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The Galatians were attempting to follow the law.

Gal 4:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
The flesh is a representation of the law.

Gal 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Are we minding the things of the flesh or the things of the Spirit?

God bless!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 08:26 PM
No, FF. Your interpretation of "flesh" is wrong. Flesh refers to circumcision which refers to Judaism. The Galatains believed (or were taught) that circumcision (conversion to Judaism) was necessary to be accepted. Loving God is not the flesh. Loving your neighbor is not the flesh. Caring for the fatherless and the widow is not the flesh, yet all of these are law.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 08:35 PM
No, FF. Your interpretation of "flesh" is wrong. Flesh refers to circumcision which refers to Judaism. The Galatains believed (or were taught) that circumcision (conversion to Judaism) was necessary to be accepted. Loving God is not the flesh. Loving your neighbor is not the flesh. Caring for the fatherless and the widow is not the flesh, yet all of these are law.

It is written quite clearly that these scriptures relate to the law being the flesh.

Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The Galatians were attempting to follow the law.

Gal 4:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
The flesh is a representation of the law.

Gal 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Please read the whole scriptures in full.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Feb 5th 2009, 09:10 PM
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The Galatians were attempting to follow the law.Please read the whole scriptures in full.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


In full they say the galatians were attempting to be justified by the law. The complaint was NOT that there were attempting to follow the words of God.

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2009, 09:04 AM
In full they say the galatians were attempting to be justified by the law. The complaint was NOT that there were attempting to follow the words of God.

Is the Torah not the word of God?

Did God not give the Torah that they were attempting to follow?

Firstfruits