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bagofseed
Feb 6th 2009, 05:54 AM
God is love.
This part I understood a bit, but more recently I have come to grips with the fact that true love (God) hates.

I have heard the saying "Love the sinner and hate the sin" but I can find no such thing in scripture but I do find much to the contrary.

Is it just me or am I missing something?

Joe King
Feb 6th 2009, 06:34 AM
God is love.
This part I understood a bit, but more recently I have come to grips with the fact that true love (God) hates.

I have heard the saying "Love the sinner and hate the sin" but I can find no such thing in scripture but I do find much to the contrary.

Is it just me or am I missing something?


How have you come to this conclusion?

bagofseed
Feb 6th 2009, 06:49 AM
The Bible is full of scriptures that talk of God's Hate.

Psa 139:21
O Lord, do I not hate those who hate you, and despise those who oppose you?

Pro 8:13
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; I hate arrogant pride and the evil way and perverse utterances.

Pro 13:5 The righteous person hates anything false,

Pro 6:16 There are six things that the Lord hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him:

thepenitent
Feb 6th 2009, 06:29 PM
God is love.
This part I understood a bit, but more recently I have come to grips with the fact that true love (God) hates.

I have heard the saying "Love the sinner and hate the sin" but I can find no such thing in scripture but I do find much to the contrary.

Is it just me or am I missing something?

In chapter two of Revelation (letter to Ephesus) Jesus says he "hates" the teachings of the Nicolations. Note, he doesn't say he hates the Nicolations but their teachings, which were obviously sinful.

rom826
Feb 6th 2009, 07:33 PM
God is love.
This part I understood a bit, but more recently I have come to grips with the fact that true love (God) hates.

I have heard the saying "Love the sinner and hate the sin" but I can find no such thing in scripture but I do find much to the contrary.

Is it just me or am I missing something?

Try John 3:16. If God does not love the sinner, how can He love you?



Rom 3:16
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

tt1106
Feb 6th 2009, 08:46 PM
God created Man for fellowship and worship. God loves Man so much, he created him with the the option to love him. Man chose sin. God hates sin, because sin denies God fellowship with Man, whom he loves, for eternity.
(until Jesus that is, now there's a love story)

Scubadude
Feb 6th 2009, 10:41 PM
God is love.
This part I understood a bit, but more recently I have come to grips with the fact that true love (God) hates.

I have heard the saying "Love the sinner and hate the sin" but I can find no such thing in scripture but I do find much to the contrary.

Is it just me or am I missing something?


Thank you for asking this question. Some replies suggest that it is possible to separate someone from what they do. I don't think it is possible to say that and still say "You will know them by their fruits". Which is it? In heaven, on the judgment day, will it be the sins of the unredeemed that will be thrown into hell, or the sinner? God will judge the sinner according to what they have done. It's a package deal.

The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference, it is "I don't care". A father who loves his child punishes her if he cares for her. Hopefully he isn't just going for a change in behavior, but heart and understanding as well. Hate can be redemptive. It is unavoidable to love without hate.

HisLeast
Feb 7th 2009, 12:38 AM
Here's my take on it. When they were about to stone the adulteress, I didn't hear anyone say she was innocent, but our Lord showed her grace and love and (unless I'm mistaken), not a lick of hatred. He met her where she was, healed her situation, and told her to go and sin no more.

Had Jesus hated Zacchius, the notorious tax collector, would he have dined at his house?

If any was worthy of hatred of our Lord, would it not be Peter? The beloved disciple who denied him three times? Yet even in the face of treason the Lord showed Peter love. And again, if I'm not mistaken, not a lick of hatred.

Jesus met people where they were. He was empathetic to them, but always firm when it came to sin. I dare say the only time Jesus demonstrated any hatred was towards those who thought themselves holy beyond all other men.

I understand the sentiment though. Hate whomever you like, but I implore you, I beg you... hate me first and foremost. My 10 year pornography addiction plumbed every depravity and ended when I cheated on my then soon to be wife. Nobody has trampled on grace nor relished their sin nor shirked the commandment of God more than I WHILE telling the world I was a good Christian. So if you need someone to hate, hate me with all the fury and malice that you can muster.

Scubadude
Feb 7th 2009, 01:06 AM
If any was worthy of hatred of our Lord, would it not be Peter? The beloved disciple who denied him three times? Yet even in the face of treason the Lord showed Peter love. And again, if I'm not mistaken, not a lick of hatred.

"Get behind me, SATAN!" Sounds like hate to me. Try saying that to a parishioner.


Jesus met people where they were. He was empathetic to them, but always firm when it came to sin. I dare say the only time Jesus demonstrated any hatred was towards those who thought themselves holy beyond all other men.


Than you agree that hatred is redemptive. ?

HisLeast
Feb 7th 2009, 01:08 AM
"Get behind me, SATAN!" Sounds like hate to me. Try saying that to a parishioner.
This doesn't sound like hatred to me.


Than you agree that hatred is redemptive. ?
No.

Scubadude
Feb 7th 2009, 01:16 AM
This doesn't sound like hatred to me.

ok.






No.

I thought you said Jesus showed hatred toward the self righteous. ?

bagofseed
Feb 7th 2009, 08:40 AM
Rom 9:13 just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God hates, and hates people its clear and simple.

But what I am learning is that God Hates because he Loves.
Think about it, if you love someone who is doing self destructive things don't you hate them for it because you love them?

I don't believe you will ever find where God stopped loving Esau

Knowing that God hates, and gets angry with us for our sins and still loves us just the same has changed me.

Growing up in the church I had felt that my sins being all forgiven meant God was good with me even if I had sin in my life as long as I kept asking for forgiveness.

But that is not the case, and now their is hope for me, hope for real change.

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 7th 2009, 04:21 PM
Rom 9:13 just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God hates, and hates people its clear and simple.

But what I am learning is that God Hates because he Loves.
Think about it, if you love someone who is doing self destructive things don't you hate them for it because you love them?

I don't believe you will ever find where God stopped loving Esau

Knowing that God hates, and gets angry with us for our sins and still loves us just the same has changed me.

Growing up in the church I had felt that my sins being all forgiven meant God was good with me even if I had sin in my life as long as I kept asking for forgiveness.

But that is not the case, and now their is hope for me, hope for real change.

I think the hating comes in in terms of actions one takes, I don't think hate is what motivates God to do things. For example the verse you gave regarding Esau, we learn that Esau was hated because of the actions he took against Jacob after losing his birthright...which we learn wasn't very much to begin with. He essentially made his purpose to set after and destroy his brother until the ends of the earth, showing no mercy over something of very little value.

All of this being stated, hate is usually brought on by fear, we generally hate what we don't understand. This is a theme that is demonstrated throughout biblical times, as well as today. Thus I wouldn't say that true love consists of hates, since there is no fear in it. What I would say that true love doesn't delight in evil, but uses evil for the purpose of bringing about it's ultimate good plan.

HisLeast
Feb 7th 2009, 04:33 PM
I thought you said Jesus showed hatred toward the self righteous. ?

My mistake... I meant to say "anything close to hatred"

Scubadude
Feb 7th 2009, 09:51 PM
I think the hating comes in in terms of actions one takes, I don't think hate is what motivates God to do things. For example the verse you gave regarding Esau, we learn that Esau was hated because of the actions he took against Jacob after losing his birthright...which we learn wasn't very much to begin with. He essentially made his purpose to set after and destroy his brother until the ends of the earth, showing no mercy over something of very little value.

All of this being stated, hate is usually brought on by fear, we generally hate what we don't understand. This is a theme that is demonstrated throughout biblical times, as well as today. Thus I wouldn't say that true love consists of hates, since there is no fear in it. What I would say that true love doesn't delight in evil, but uses evil for the purpose of bringing about it's ultimate good plan.

This is just an observation, but it seems the more aggressive emotions like hatred (and it's close cousin anger) are shunned in modern Christianity. For some reason, they have been treated as unwelcome and unhealthy for the person and the church community. Very understandable to an extent. Making decisions out of anger or hatred can lead to some very awful conclusions (physical abuse, murder, voting for Obama). There are some very good reasons to control our feelings of hatred and anger. But.........

Avoiding an emotion and trying to suppress it is like trying to learn how to become a skilled carpenter without using the necessary tools, hoping real hard you won't need to use them. You have to gain a lot of experience using them before you can be called 'master carpenter'. And (I think this is where the fear you are talking about comes in), along the path to gaining that skill (wisdom, maturity), some bad cuts will be made. Maybe even a finger will get cut off.

If a pastor were to say to his congregation that he hated some of the parishioners in the church because they were evil (like God does), the response would at least involve outrage and fear from many attending. Suddenly, the pastor they thought was a nice, friendly guy is a bit scary and unpredictable.

I think this is largely the reason why many men prefer to stay home and watch football instead of gong to church. Something good in a man, like the ability to get angry and hate evil is stifled. If God made a man to reflect Him in some way, I would say it is to reflect His righteousness. "Something is very wrong here, and I will move with conviction to correct this injustice!" If you've ever spent time with a cop, you know what I'm talking about. Sometimes, you need to hurt someone in order to give them a chance to change.

btw: Bagofseed, went to your profile, but couldn't leave a message.

bagofseed
Feb 8th 2009, 03:41 AM
Lots of cowards in the pulpits, none in Heaven.


Mar 4:40
And he said to them, “Why are you cowardly? Do you still not have faith?”

Rev 21:8
But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”

bagofseed
Feb 8th 2009, 03:50 AM
The Fear of God is lacking!

Fear God above all else.

Pray for a great fear of God.

Pray to love what God loves.

Pray to hate what God hates.

Big Jake
Feb 8th 2009, 05:25 PM
God is love.
This part I understood a bit, but more recently I have come to grips with the fact that true love (God) hates.

I have heard the saying "Love the sinner and hate the sin" but I can find no such thing in scripture but I do find much to the contrary.

Is it just me or am I missing something?

God states that no one is righteous, thus one would have to say that he hates everybody if they truly believe that God hates men. My thought process is that God does not hate men per say, but he does hate sinful actions that men take. Here's a verse from Hosea that comes to mind..

Hosea 9:15
Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal,
I hated them there.
Because of their sinful deeds,
I will drive them out of my house.
I will no longer love them;
all their leaders are rebellious.

Everytime you see God hating someone in the scripture, it is usually prefaced by some sort of action an individual has taken. The verse above gives the entire context of just what is meant when God hates. It's usually proceeded by some sort of sinful action someone makes. Remember God states that he wishes all to come to repentance, and his desire is to see all men saved. There is no doubt in my mind that God is not bound by irrational hate of any man. He uses the emotion effectively within his love, against those people who commit attrocious actions against other human beings.

Scubadude
Feb 9th 2009, 05:38 AM
The Fear of God is lacking!

Fear God above all else.

Pray for a great fear of God.

Pray to love what God loves.

Pray to hate what God hates.


Someone else asked this question on another thread, but I think it fits here. What does Jesus mean when he says that to be His disciple you must hate your family and your own life? I have some thoughts, but I talk too much.

tt1106
Feb 9th 2009, 02:01 PM
Someone else asked this question on another thread, but I think it fits here. What does Jesus mean when he says that to be His disciple you must hate your family and your own life? I have some thoughts, but I talk too much.

Jesus is making a point here. He is saying that we must love him above all others, even our own life.

bosco
Feb 9th 2009, 02:09 PM
God is love.
This part I understood a bit, but more recently I have come to grips with the fact that true love (God) hates.

I have heard the saying "Love the sinner and hate the sin" but I can find no such thing in scripture but I do find much to the contrary.

Is it just me or am I missing something?

God teaches us to love our neighbor, and also....your enemy. But we are also taught to not fellowship with evil or with those who worship false gods. So we can love the person but hate the evil or sin.

As for all the verses pointing to God hating things. God is love, God is truth. Those things not built upon love, and things which teach untruths especially as it concerns him, he hates.

What if your own child (who you love) started a cult that worshipped Dalmations. Ah, they are black and white and show a balance and unity...but it is still false worship of a fake god. Do you stop loving your child? Of course not, but you do hate the new phoney religion he jumped into.

Bosco

Brother Mark
Feb 9th 2009, 03:51 PM
God is love.
This part I understood a bit, but more recently I have come to grips with the fact that true love (God) hates.

I have heard the saying "Love the sinner and hate the sin" but I can find no such thing in scripture but I do find much to the contrary.

Is it just me or am I missing something?

Love and hate are not opposites. Agape (love) is an act of the will. Hate is an emotion. It is possible to both love someone and hate them at the same time. However, when one loves fully, then he will be selfless for love does not seek it's own.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Big Jake
Feb 9th 2009, 06:17 PM
Someone else asked this question on another thread, but I think it fits here. What does Jesus mean when he says that to be His disciple you must hate your family and your own life? I have some thoughts, but I talk too much.

It means that you must not love anything above loving God. What is God though. That's the better question. if God is love..then we are demonstrating him by being loving to our brothers and sisters. The problem comes in when we put something ahead of Love, specifically...those things which go against doing what's loving. If we believe God's purpose is above all loving, then we will sincerely try not to exalt anything above it in our lives. Thus why it states to "hate" our family. Imagine if Abraham had stayed in Chadlea..and disobeyed God, or Noah had loved the people who surrounded him more than God? We would not be here today, if men did not demonstrate their love for obeying God, as oppossed to obeying and being in submission to me. God bless.

Dez-troy-a
Feb 9th 2009, 07:12 PM
Brother Mark, If Love is a will and hate is an emotion then it makes sense not to make decisions based on hate or other "emotions", right?

I am wondering if hell was made under emotion (hatered) to torture sinners...because this will contradict the fact that God hates the sin and not the sinner.

Dez

Scubadude
Feb 9th 2009, 07:39 PM
Jesus is making a point here. He is saying that we must love him above all others, even our own life.

Seeing a lot of different uses of the word 'hate' in scripture is getting kind of confusing. Sometimes I wish God included His own dictionary in the back of the book for what He really means.

Answering the question "True love hates?" is yes and no. Or, it depends on what what you are talking about. It's very tempting to cram my thoughts into being supported by a neat biblical package. That's more tiresome than being confused!

Big Jake
Feb 9th 2009, 07:42 PM
Brother Mark, If Love is a will and hate is an emotion then it makes sense not to make decisions based on hate or other "emotions", right?

I am wondering if hell was made under emotion (hatered) to torture sinners...because this will contradict the fact that God hates the sin and not the sinner.

Dez

Does God or Love "delight in evil?" My thought would be no...he doesn't, and torturing others for amusement would I think be characterized as evil. Thus the reason why Christ came in, so that men can get over the fear of death as he has control of both..that being he is now the Lord of the "dead and the living" the apostle Paul goes into this regarding his testimonies and epistles..

Scubadude
Feb 9th 2009, 08:09 PM
Love and hate are not opposites. Agape (love) is an act of the will. Hate is an emotion. It is possible to both love someone and hate them at the same time. However, when one loves fully, then he will be selfless for love does not seek it's own.

Hate can be redemptive, mostly because God and the righteous feel it. Jealousy can be used to protect the integrity of a relationship, fear can remind us of our need and place before God, loneliness motivates us to seek out love. But, like any emotion, they can be used for selfish ends.


Psa 139:21
O Lord, do I not hate those who hate you, and despise those who oppose you?

Pro 8:13
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; I hate arrogant pride and the evil way and perverse utterances.

Pro 13:5 The righteous person hates anything false,

Pro 6:16 There are six things that the Lord hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him:

Big Jake
Feb 9th 2009, 08:15 PM
Hate can be redemptive, mostly because God and the righteous feel it. Jealousy can be used to protect the integrity of a relationship, fear can remind us of our need and place before God, loneliness motivates us to seek out love. But, like any emotion, they can be used for selfish ends.


Psa 139:21
O Lord, do I not hate those who hate you, and despise those who oppose you?

Pro 8:13
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; I hate arrogant pride and the evil way and perverse utterances.

Pro 13:5 The righteous person hates anything false,

Pro 6:16 There are six things that the Lord hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him:

Yes, and this is where we have to understand that these emotions are used within Love and reason. God doesn't hate evil because he fears it, he hates it because it's the righteous thing to do. He hates evil because he is righteous and loving. But Love in itself does not really consist of arbitrary hatred, thus why I believe it's important to distinguish between God hating the evil that men do, as oppossed to hating the men themselves.

Thus why God states he wishes "all" to come to repentance..and desires all to be saved. God's nature is so Loving, that we can't even really begin to fathom what it truly means to Love, and thus the only reason why we Love God is because his love encompasses and includes us in it. Without God, we would have no ability to love at all. And we would essentially all be living very crazy lives.

Dez-troy-a
Feb 9th 2009, 08:50 PM
Yes, and this is where we have to understand that these emotions are used within Love and reason. God doesn't hate evil because he fears it, he hates it because it's the righteous thing to do. He hates evil because he is righteous and loving. But Love in itself does not really consist of arbitrary hatred, thus why I believe it's important to distinguish between God hating the evil that men do, as oppossed to hating the men themselves.

But surely isnt the sin a man does become part of him?

The bible makes it clear that Gods love is not selective and has no criteria. But does God actually hate any man? What about those who are unforgivable because they blaspheme the spirit (mark 3: 22....or so), does God (hence the spirit) hate them? Can someone lose Gods love, or can they intentionaly escape or reject Gods love? Where do ppl in hell fall into this category?

Dez

Scubadude
Feb 11th 2009, 02:39 AM
Yes, and this is where we have to understand that these emotions are used within Love and reason. God doesn't hate evil because he fears it, he hates it because it's the righteous thing to do. He hates evil because he is righteous and loving. But Love in itself does not really consist of arbitrary hatred, thus why I believe it's important to distinguish between God hating the evil that men do, as oppossed to hating the men themselves.

Thus why God states he wishes "all" to come to repentance..and desires all to be saved. God's nature is so Loving, that we can't even really begin to fathom what it truly means to Love, and thus the only reason why we Love God is because his love encompasses and includes us in it. Without God, we would have no ability to love at all. And we would essentially all be living very crazy lives.


I agree. No one said anything about hatred being arbitrary, though. It is purposeful. I say redemptive.

Friend of I AM
Feb 11th 2009, 02:48 PM
But surely isnt the sin a man does become part of him?

The bible makes it clear that Gods love is not selective and has no criteria.


I'm going to have to say that this is the point at which you are a bit off on. God is selective in what he defines his love to be. He defines things that go against being loving through his word. Now where God is not selective is that he does not show favortism towards anyone. He treats all with fairness and equity regarding his judgements.



But does God actually hate any man? What about those who are unforgivable because they blaspheme the spirit (mark 3: 22....or so), does God (hence the spirit) hate them? Can someone lose Gods love, or can they intentionaly escape or reject Gods love? Where do ppl in hell fall into this category?

Dez

This really is a seperate topic altogether. There are threads about this sin, and what it actually means. If you'd like to bump one we can discuss it better.

bagofseed
Feb 15th 2009, 03:35 AM
I think we may be mixing things here.

On one level are our actions
On another are our motives
On another is our nature

bagofseed
Feb 21st 2009, 05:03 AM
I see God's hatred proclaimed through scripture, for all sorts of evil men, including specific people like Esau.

God hates and judges people because of their deeds, how does God not separate the two. Can someone show me where in scripture?

Still, I know God is love and motivated by love even when He hates.

Because God Loves us He hates those who hate us.

If God didn't love us with the love He does would he hate them with the hate He does?

Brother Mark
Feb 21st 2009, 09:33 AM
I see God's hatred proclaimed through scripture, for all sorts of evil men, including specific people like Esau.

God hates and judges people because of their deeds, how does God not separate the two. Can someone show me where in scripture?

Still, I know God is love and motivated by love even when He hates.

Because God Loves us He hates those who hate us.

If God didn't love us with the love He does would he hate them with the hate He does?

Love and hate are not opposites. One can love someone and hate them at the same time. Hate is an emotion while love is not. The opposite of love is selfishness. Love does not seek it's own. God can hate evil people and still send his Son to die for them because he loves them.

Brother Mark
Feb 21st 2009, 09:34 AM
Brother Mark, If Love is a will and hate is an emotion then it makes sense not to make decisions based on hate or other "emotions", right?

I am wondering if hell was made under emotion (hatered) to torture sinners...because this will contradict the fact that God hates the sin and not the sinner.

Dez

Scripture says that hell was made for the devil and his angels. It is now used for man because man sinned.

reformedct
Feb 22nd 2009, 01:10 AM
psalm 5:5 "..you HATE ALL WHO DO EVIL"

god also hates the evildoers not just the evil. he also loves everyone. Hes God. He can do both at the same time. dont ask me how it works! but thats what the Bible says. theres also a verse that says the Lord is angry everyday. people like to smother these kinds of verses with the God loves the world verses, instead of excepting them both equally. God loves all, but at the same time His wrath is upon the heads of the unbelieving and He whets His sword preparing to slaughter them.