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jonahthebold
Mar 1st 2009, 03:49 AM
I appologize in advance because I know that this thread could go horribly wrong. But I pray that it doesn't, and I hope you'll help me have a productive discussion here. Also, I am simply trying to ask questions. I am not trying to provoke anyone. Please be respectful.

1: What is the scriptural basis for the uniquely unacceptable status of homosexuality? I have quite a few close friends who are gay, and I don't try to convert them or change them or anything. If they want to talk about God, I'll talk about God, but I won't focus on homosexuality in the Christian context. I feel there are more crucial aspects of Christian faith than sexual orientation. I also know that most of you don't feel this way at all, and probably think I am very wrong. Why?
Why is homosexuality any different from eating shellfish (bad example due to Matthew 14:26 11), or, say, not stoning to death a woman who is raped in a city (Duet 22:26 23)? I just don't understand how all sinners can be forgiven, yet so many Christians seem incapable of forgiving, or even just not condemning, homosexuals.

2: Abortion. Yeah, I'm bringing it up. First let me say that I don't like it, and I don't think it's right, but yes, I am pro-choice. My reasoning is rather ill-informed, but I think it's sensible: God gave us free will. I know that if I got someone pregnant, I would probably keep the child. I say probably because I can't say for sure without ever having been in the situation. I believe that aborting a child of mine would be a sin. But I also don't think there's any chance for redemption if the choice of whether or not to sin is taken out of our hands. I have faught hard in the past, oftentimes against other Christians, to preserve 'the right to choose'.

Alright, so I'm sure everyone will tell me I'm wrong... very wrong. But why? I am perfectly willing to have my mind changed if I am shown to be wrong. I am not someone who believes that you can pick and chose which parts of the Bible to follow. But we are all sinners, so I want to know why most Christians seem to treat these two sins as such an important part of Christianity.

After appologizing in advance, I would also like to thank you in advance for the enlightened replies which I know will follow.

apothanein kerdos
Mar 1st 2009, 03:58 AM
Quite the pandora's box!



1: What is the scriptural basis for the uniquely unacceptable status of homosexuality? I have quite a few close friends who are gay, and I don't try to convert them or change them or anything. If they want to talk about God, I'll talk about God, but I won't focus on homosexuality in the Christian context. I feel there are more crucial aspects of Christian faith than sexual orientation. I also know that most of you don't feel this way at all, and probably think I am very wrong. Why?
Why is homosexuality any different from eating shellfish (bad example due to Matthew 14:26 11), or, say, not stoning to death a woman who is raped in a city (Duet 22:26 23)? I just don't understand how all sinners can be forgiven, yet so many Christians seem incapable of forgiving, or even just not condemning, homosexuals.

Well, homosexuality is a sin, but I do think it would be quite a waste of time to explain why it's a sin to someone that isn't a Christian. When I talk to people about Christ, I do get them to acknowledge they are sinners, but I don't try to get them to repent until they've already accepted Christ.

Likewise, I think a person can be a struggling homosexual and still be a Christian. However, they must recognize that homosexuality is a sin (via Romans 1 amongst other passages) once they are a Christian.


2: Abortion. Yeah, I'm bringing it up. First let me say that I don't like it, and I don't think it's right, but yes, I am pro-choice. My reasoning is rather ill-informed, but I think it's sensible: God gave us free will. I know that if I got someone pregnant, I would probably keep the child. I say probably because I can't say for sure without ever having been in the situation. I believe that aborting a child of mine would be a sin. But I also don't think there's any chance for redemption if the choice of whether or not to sin is taken out of our hands. I have faught hard in the past, oftentimes against other Christians, to preserve 'the right to choose'.

This makes no logical sense. Why would it be a sin?

If the fetus is a human, then it's wrong and is murderous. No one, including yourself, advocates that a parent should be given the choice to kill her 9 year old daughter if the daughter does something wrong, or the parent simply gets tired of having the daughter. Thus, it's illogical to say that a mother should have the choice to kill the fetus if the fetus is truly human.

If the fetus isn't human, then why would it be a sin?

A person still has a choice to obey or disobey the law, they merely have to face the consequences of disobeying the law. Thus, we all have the freedom to choose whatever we want - this does not mean, however, that we are free from the consequences of a choice (which is what legalized abortion does - it frees people from the legal consequences of murder).

jonahthebold
Mar 1st 2009, 04:09 AM
"If the fetus is a human..."

Well I guess that's what I'm wondering... Abortion is such a huge issue in Christianity, so there must be some scriptural support for the belief that it is wrong... So where in scripture does it say when life begins? And is it as clear as you stated? Is there a grey area where it's not murder, but it is still a sin which will weigh heavy on your soul?

Why are most Christians so clearly on one side of the issue if the question of whether or not a fetus is alive has not been answered?

apothanein kerdos
Mar 1st 2009, 04:55 AM
"If the fetus is a human..."

Well I guess that's what I'm wondering... Abortion is such a huge issue in Christianity, so there must be some scriptural support for the belief that it is wrong... So where in scripture does it say when life begins? And is it as clear as you stated? Is there a grey area where it's not murder, but it is still a sin which will weigh heavy on your soul?

Why are most Christians so clearly on one side of the issue if the question of whether or not a fetus is alive has not been answered?

What is it that makes us human? What makes us different from fishes, apes, or other species? What is it to be a human being?

BCF
Mar 1st 2009, 05:16 AM
What is it that makes us human? What makes us different from fishes, apes, or other species? What is it to be a human being?

We have a Soul and a Spirit. That's waht makes the difference between a human and any oher creature that God ever created.

God Bless,

Dave

apothanein kerdos
Mar 1st 2009, 05:26 AM
We have a Soul and a Spirit. That's waht makes the difference between a human and any oher creature that God ever created.

God Bless,

Dave

That's not very specific though. What does it mean to have a soul? How do we distinguish it from non-soul?

revrobor
Mar 1st 2009, 05:34 AM
I scanned the first few posts and did not see anyone give you the Biblical basis for Christians believing homosexual sex is a sin. So here they are: 1Cor. 6: 9-10, 1Tim. 1: 9-10, Rom. 1: 26-27, Lev. 18: 22, 29, 30. Those of us who believe abortion is a sin believe that the "fetus" (Latin for "baby") becomes a human being at conception and to kill the baby would violate the 6th Commandment "You shall not murder".

Truthinlove
Mar 1st 2009, 05:46 AM
Abortion is such a huge issue in Christianity, so there must be some scriptural support for the belief that it is wrong... So where in scripture does it say when life begins? And is it as clear as you stated? Is there a grey area where it's not murder, but it is still a sin which will weigh heavy on your soul?

Why are most Christians so clearly on one side of the issue if the question of whether or not a fetus is alive has not been answered?

Human life in the womb begins AT CONCEPTION.

Psalm 51: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

What is in the womb of a pregnant woman? Children

Gen. 25:22 "But the children struggled together within her...."

Job 10:10-11 "You guided my conception and formed me in the womb. You clothed me with skin and flesh, and you knit my bones and sinews together. You gave me life and showed me your unfailing love."

Psalm 139:13-16 "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

jonahthebold
Mar 1st 2009, 09:54 AM
Thanks for the scripture, revrobor and truthinlove. Lots to read and think about.

To clarify slightly, though... I know that homosexuality is a sin. I guess I'm just wondering if it is worse than any other minor sin... or is it a major sin? Is it on par with murder or theft even though there is no commandment prohibiting it? If not, why is there so much focus on it in Christianity today?

moonglow
Mar 1st 2009, 02:45 PM
Thanks for the scripture, revrobor and truthinlove. Lots to read and think about.

To clarify slightly, though... I know that homosexuality is a sin. I guess I'm just wondering if it is worse than any other minor sin... or is it a major sin? Is it on par with murder or theft even though there is no commandment prohibiting it? If not, why is there so much focus on it in Christianity today?

I think the reason it gets so focused on today is because its being forced on us to accept through us having to vote for or against gay marriage... it's being taught in some grade schools telling little children this is an acceptable way of life...through gay parades and on and on. We are told to accept it and its being forced on us too more and more everyday. This is why its being more focused on. Homosexuality though is not a worse sin then others. Its listed along with those that commit adultery, or are drunks, or abusers, and so on.

I didn't see anyone address this part of your post:
Why is homosexuality any different from eating shellfish (bad example due to Matthew 14:26 11), or, say, not stoning to death a woman who is raped in a city (Duet 22:26 23)?

Well first I am not sure what scriptures you are trying to quote in Matthew 14...you have your verses listed backwards...26 to 11? I tried reversing them to 11-16 but this is about Jesus walking on water and feeding five thousands. He fed them fish, not shellfish if that is what you were looking at. Shellfish is like shrimp or crabs...anything with shells on it. But regular fish was ok.

At any rate those old laws in the OT were written for the Hebrews just coming out of slavery. We as Christians are not bound by those OT laws. Romans in the bible covers this. No one is picking and choosing what laws to follow...any laws or commandments we follow now were made clear but Jesus.

Deuteronomy 22
25 “But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die. 26 Do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no crime worthy of death. She is as innocent as a murder victim. 27 Since the man raped her out in the country, it must be assumed that she screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.

The man is punished not the woman. At any rate...do you see us doing this now? Are we in churches judging such things then taking rapists out to stone them? Why not? Because those laws were for the Hebrews..the Jews...and done thousands and thousands of years ago....we don't follow those old laws as first we aren't Jews and second as I said before, we are no longer bound by the law. The only reason the OT is used to 'with' other NT scriptures is to show homosexuality was considered a sin then and still is now.

God bless

BigD
Mar 1st 2009, 03:03 PM
The reason it is such a HUGE issue today with Christians is because the homosexual community is trying to FORCE Christians not only to pass absolutely no judgements on their behavior, but also to ACCEPT it. They want it taught to kids that there is nothing wrong with a gay couple getting married and rasing a family and that its no different than their mommy and daddy. They want gay marriage and the gay lifestyle looked upon as an acceptable alternative to traditional families. Besides believing that it is sinful and wrong, Christians also believe that GOD meant for children to be raised by a mother AND a DAD and that is what makes up a HEALTHY society and provides the best environment for children.

Christians are also targeted for humiliation and retribution by gay advocacy groups when they oppose ballot measures for gay marriage, donate money to groups working to defeat gay marriage meaures or to groups that promote a traditional view of family and marriage. Christians are called hate mongers, Biggots, fascists, morons, hicks, haters and lots of other rather vile names that can't be mentioned here when they oppose any expansion of the homosexual agenda that is currently being promoted and pursued in many states and the media.

Given the hatred that is generated for Christians by these homosexual groups it is no surprise that Christians are going to be strong in their beliefs that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of GOD, is sinful and shouldn't be promoted as something that is totally innocuous and normal. From what I have seen and read the real animosity and venom is NOT coming from Christians, but from the homosexual advocacy groups and their rather substantial and powerful supporters. Christians don't hate homosexuals, they hate their behavior and lifestyle because we believe GODS word teaches us so. Its the same as Christians would hate a man that is going out and committing adultery while his wife is at home with their children.

If there wasn't such a HUGE push in our culture from multiple sides against Christians to equate gay marriage and the gay lifestyle with what a man and woman share when they date and eventually wed, and normalize their behavior, I don't think homosexuality would be nearly the hot button issue that it is. Sure Christians would still believe it was sinful and immoral, but there wouldn't be such a bright spotlight put on it and viewed as an attack on our beliefs and morality like it currently is.


As for abortion, I don't even know where to start with that one. You either believe that what is in a mothers womb is a baby or it isn't. If you can repeatedly tell and therefore convince yourself that it's nothing more than a clump of cells, it ain't no big deal to get rid of it using any means necessary and have no ill feelings when it's done. In this country that we live in, a woman can have her 9 month old baby's head delivered outside her body and a "doctor" can plunge a pair of scissors into its brain and murder it right there on the table, all under the banner of "freedom or choice." No matter what you tell yourself there is no getting around it that the end result of an abortion is that the most precious thing GOD created, a baby, is DEAD.

I'll close by saying that I think that its a tremendous failure of our churches and ministers in preaching GODS word and teaching the Bible to their church members when there exists people that call themselves christians and are "pro choice."

BD

Bernie
Mar 1st 2009, 03:10 PM
I believe that aborting a child of mine would be a sin. But I also don't think there's any chance for redemption if the choice of whether or not to sin is taken out of our hands. I have faught hard in the past, oftentimes against other Christians, to preserve 'the right to choose'.
Some folks want the freedom to choose to steal, rape, become addicted to illegal drugs or kill. We don't defend these "rights" because the consensus recognizes the value "badness" attaches to them. Abortion is somewhat unique because in most wrong acts, there is visual, material evidence of the crime. Abortion, on the other hand, is kept strictly under wraps. Out of sight, it seems something we only discuss, quite separate and distinct from the reality of it. If you've ever heard or seen a graphic description of the techniques involved in aborting a fetus, it's hard to see how you could believe the "sin" of blocking one's choice of causing an abortion is a legitimate position, which sounds strongly libertarian btw.

truthseeker2
Mar 1st 2009, 04:05 PM
I would say if your friends are not Christians then you should not judge them because they are outside of the church. I would say if you can it would be good to talk to them about Jesus and how we are all sinners. If they accept Christ then you should let them know that it is not right to live a homosexual lifestyle.

The reason it is such a big deal is it is a lifestyle choice, part of what the Bible says is to repent of sin but if they are going to be continually seeking after a homosexual lifestyle then I don't think they are really repenting and that is the big issue with it.

As far as a baby being alive before it is aborted.

Luke1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Do you think that it would leap for joy if it was not alive?

SweetEnigma
Mar 1st 2009, 05:36 PM
Thanks for the scripture, revrobor and truthinlove. Lots to read and think about.

To clarify slightly, though... I know that homosexuality is a sin. I guess I'm just wondering if it is worse than any other minor sin... or is it a major sin? Is it on par with murder or theft even though there is no commandment prohibiting it? If not, why is there so much focus on it in Christianity today?
I believe sin is sin: they all hurt God. No sin is greater or lessor than any other. God lays out a lot of sins in the bible- word for word "This ______ is a sin, don't do it". Only God knows His exact reasoning for defining sins... and only God will Judge your sins in the end, nobody else.

With that said, I think a lot of Christians get upset over abortion and gay marriage because while they aren't committing those acts themselves... they see how in this society politics outweigh the laws of God. It's troublesome to Christians who believe in their hearts that the bible is accurate and a propehcy of the future.

It comes right down to this: if you aren't doing it, and others around you are doing it...do you have a responsiblity to God to intervene? Would the first disciples of Christ speak up and say something about those issues? Probably. Should you spread His word even in the realm of politics? Jesus, Himself, said it's not easy to follow Him. Christians getting bashed for speaking up about issues they are passionate over is a prime example of this... Furthermore, I think that many Christians are just as passionate about avoiding other sins-- such as taking the Lord's name in vain and lust-- but those sins aren't exactly the types that get voted on..and debated on National television.

revrobor
Mar 1st 2009, 09:03 PM
Thanks for the scripture, revrobor and truthinlove. Lots to read and think about.

To clarify slightly, though... I know that homosexuality is a sin. I guess I'm just wondering if it is worse than any other minor sin... or is it a major sin? Is it on par with murder or theft even though there is no commandment prohibiting it? If not, why is there so much focus on it in Christianity today?

There are no degrees of sin. There is so much focus on it today because homosexuals have been boldly trying to claim it is normal (the big lie) as they flaunt their lifestyle in God's face and ours. They are still no more than 3% of the population but they have a great promotional campaign going.

AlanR742
Mar 2nd 2009, 04:18 AM
Some people may get angry at me for saying this (there's always a wrathful lordship salvationist somewhere), but, God isn't concerned whether someone is "gay" or "straight" (that's why homosexuality isn't condemned in the 10 commandments) it's how spiritually mature one is.
I wrote about the subject, particularly 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:


“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” – Matthew 5:20
The Greek word for enter is “eiserchomai” which means to “enter” or to “go through.” This is a very serious verse that no one ever pays attention to – if you are like a self-righteous Pharisee going about to EARN your own salvation (the Pharisees did that – and it is PLAIN BY READING SCRIPTURE, ALL of the Pharisees tried EARNING their salvation, there were some who believed and were saved – but didn’t want to give up their being praised by men), you shall be REJECTED from entering heaven (New Jerusalem). Why? Because you never accepted the free gift of Christ’s righteousness to be imputed upon you.

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
The Greek word for inherit is “kleronomeo” (from kleronomos which means “to be an heir” – i.e. our kings in training status – very obvious in the Greek), this verse refers to our “inheritances” and not ENTERING the kingdom of God – big difference; for crying out loud, two different Greek words are being used (English waters them down and people take it out of context). Furthermore, someone who is “unrighteous” may not have Christ’s righteousness, OR, they will be living carnally without 1 john 1:9 and thus their inheritances shall be slashed (but they shall still ENTER the Kingdom of God).
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” – Ephesians 5:5
Here we see our inheritances being ratified; anyone who sins greatly will have their “inheritances” slashed! This is why we should walk in the ways of the just, not turning our hearts to evil – even IF we may be saved, we won’t be rewarded (obviously). This is why God is giving us time, so we can train under his with our royal priest status to BECOME Kings in New Jerusalem (heaven).


Homosexuals can indeed be saved by faith, NOTHING limits salvation; well, the lordship salvation does :lol: (just like the pharisees in Matthew 23:33).

bennie
Mar 2nd 2009, 04:59 AM
Some people may get angry at me for saying this (there's always a wrathful lordship salvationist somewhere), but, God isn't concerned whether someone is "gay" or "straight" (that's why homosexuality isn't condemned in the 10 commandments) it's how spiritually mature one is.
I wrote about the subject, particularly 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:


Homosexuals can indeed be saved by faith, NOTHING limits salvation; well, the lordship salvation does :lol: (just like the pharisees in Matthew 23:33).


Mate, Drug use is not condemned in the ten commandments, Being a drunk is not in the ten commandments ect ect.

Are only the thing in the ten commandmends sin? I donth think so. Whas Lev18:22 part of the 10 commandments? No. But God still told them NOT to lei with a man. Paul makes it pretty clear in Romans that it is still sin. Just incase you think we are not under the "law" anymore.
God loves everybody. That is true. But He does hate sin. Being homosexual is not the sin, living the livestyl IS.

Bennie

apothanein kerdos
Mar 2nd 2009, 05:24 AM
Some people may get angry at me for saying this (there's always a wrathful lordship salvationist somewhere), but, God isn't concerned whether someone is "gay" or "straight" (that's why homosexuality isn't condemned in the 10 commandments) it's how spiritually mature one is.
I wrote about the subject, particularly 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:


Homosexuals can indeed be saved by faith, NOTHING limits salvation; well, the lordship salvation does :lol: (just like the pharisees in Matthew 23:33).

Does God care if a man beats his wife? Or is God only concerned with the man's "spiritual maturity" (whatever that means)?

moonglow
Mar 2nd 2009, 03:57 PM
Some people may get angry at me for saying this (there's always a wrathful lordship salvationist somewhere), but, God isn't concerned whether someone is "gay" or "straight" (that's why homosexuality isn't condemned in the 10 commandments) it's how spiritually mature one is.
I wrote about the subject, particularly 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:


Homosexuals can indeed be saved by faith, NOTHING limits salvation; well, the lordship salvation does :lol: (just like the pharisees in Matthew 23:33).

Yes anyone can be saved and born again...once that happens they become a new creation in Christ...

2 Corinthians 5:16-18 (New Living Translation)

16 So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! 17 This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!

So what happens when we become new creations in Christ and the old life is gone? Some kind of change happens...we are free from the bondage of sin for one thing.

Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

The Ten commandments does include thou shall not commit adultery...homosexuals are committing adultery.

I hate to say this but you are participating in false teachings here..there is nothing in the bible that say only the Ten Commandments count...so rape is ok, abuse is ok, etc, etc....The New Testament clearly covers what other things are considered a sin and being a new creation in Christ, those sinful desires should leave us..if they don't then we aren't putting God first in our life but wanting only to satisfy our selfish pleasures...lust of the flesh.

Second why in the world would you want to condone such a risky life style? Its like you don't care if they get AIDS or HIV and have to take medication the rest of their lives or suffer and die from a terrible disease. You ARE justifying a death sentence...not only here in this life but in the next. The life span for male homosexuals is quite a bit lower then for straight men due to these sexually transmitted diseases.

Take a look at these scriptures...clearly this is how God feels about false teachers and those who practice any kind of sexually immoral behavior.

Jude 1
The Danger of False Teachers
3 Dear friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. 4 I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful. 6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment. 7 And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment.

Apparently it wasn't just rude behavior that got Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed....:cool:

Tread carefully in what you are saying here. If you closely study the Ten Commandments you will see homosexuality is covered there...putting anything above God is idol worship.

Thou shall have no other gods before me....

That includes any 'thing' or any 'one'. Money, lust, material things, etc, etc...

moonglow
Mar 2nd 2009, 04:26 PM
http://godstenlaws.com/about/sitemap.html

Commandment 1

Old Covenant Command

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3

New Covenant Equivalent

We must worship and serve God exclusively:

"Jesus said to the devil, “Go away from me, Satan! It is written in the Scriptures, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’ ” (Matthew 4:10, NCV).

We must not love the world:

"You adulterers! Don’t you realize that friendship with this world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again, that if your aim is to enjoy this world, you can’t be a friend of God. What do you think the Scriptures mean when they say that the Holy Spirit, whom God has placed within us, jealously longs for us to be faithful? He gives us more and more strength to stand against such evil desires" (James 4:4-6, NLT).

"Stop loving this evil world and all that it offers you, for when you love the world, you show that you do not have the love of the Father in you. For the world offers only the lust for physical pleasure, the lust for everything we see, and pride in our possessions. These are not from the Father. They are from this evil world. And this world is fading away, along with everything it craves. But if you do the will of God, you will live forever" (I John 2:15-17, NLT).

We must not serve two masters:

“No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” (Luke 16:13, NLT).

Commandment 2

Old Covenant Command

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:4-6

New Covenant Equivalent

Keep ourselves from idols:

Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (I John 5:21).

Greed is idolatry:

"You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is really an idolater who worships the things of this world" (Ephesians 5:5, NLT).

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry" (Colossians 3:5, NIV).

Our body is the temple of God and it cannot be shared with idols:

"The temple of God cannot have any agreement with idols, and we are the temple of the living God. As God said: “I will live with them and walk with them. And I will be their God, and they will be my people.” (II Corinthians 6:16-17, NCV).

We are not to fashion God with our hands:

"Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.” (Acts 17:22-31, NIV).

(I just realized you are the one that also agrees with king James on burning witches...at least you said you agreed with that link you posted...and that you agreed with him on there being no more signs or wonders, or miracles...I guess you need to explain how burning witches is ok since its also not in the Ten Commandments. Witches burned alive...homosexuality ok...:cool:)

Shnoz462
Mar 4th 2009, 06:13 AM
Well, maybe it's not relavent religiously, but a human fetus is actually a lot like a fish fetus. It even has gills. A typical human brain isn't really formed until about 8 weeks after conception. Even then, most dolphin and whale fetuses have larger brains than a human fetus. Before 8 weeks, it's just a few thousands strands of DNA, doesn't have brains, limbs or a heart.
After 8 weeks it starts basic motor functions, but it's not until about 15 weeks that you can distinguish a human fetus from any other animal on this planet.
Only at the end of these 15 weeks does any form of brain activity occur. Only at the end of these 15 weeks can it be called, in the loosest sense, alive.

And now onto homosexuality!
Homosexuality is not a choice, it is built into the brain. It is just like heterosexuality, which is also built into the brain.
Homosexuality is caused by a girl having a more 'guyish' brain, or a guy having a more 'girlish' brain.
Same way as heterosexuality is caused by a girl having a 'girlish' brain and a guy having a 'guyish' brain.
It's theorised that homosexuality is caused by trama to the mother during pregnancy. It's not proven, but statistics support it. Since homosexuality is defined by the brain, that makes it a lifestyle choice, just like heterosexuality, religion, sport, what you wear, etc.
So basically when you say it's a sin to be homosexual, it would be exactly the same as saying it's a sin to be a Jew. (Sorry for the Hitler analogy; but, ironically enough, it's kinda similar).

And as an afternote: if I've offended anyone, sorry. I think it's fine that people have their beliefs, but they shouldn't enforce it on others especially with the law. (eg. abortion laws, laws against homosexuals)

Truthinlove
Mar 4th 2009, 03:20 PM
First of all, welcome to Bible Forums,Shnoz :)

Now, for correction. Your info on the unborn is very wrong.

There is tons of info out there on fetal development. I thought I would post some correct info for you and others reading this thread. ;)


Well, maybe it's not relavent religiously, but a human fetus is actually a lot like a fish fetus. It even has gills.

Early on, this being has gill slits and a tail. Isn’t this proof that it is not human then?

The "gill slits" are not slits but folds of skin much like an infant’s "double chin." These stretch out as he grows. The tail isn’t a tail either. The central nervous system consists of brain and spinal cord. It is the most important part of the early body and grows the fastest. The "tail" is really the end of the spinal cord which grows faster than the torso. The torso catches up with it, and its tip then becomes your adult "tail bone." "The body of the unborn baby is more complex than ours. The preborn baby has several extra parts to his body which he needs only so long as he lives inside his mother. He has his own space capsule, the amniotic sac. He has his own lifeline, the umbilical cord, and he has his own root system, the placenta. These all belong to the baby himself, not to his mother. They are all developed from his original cell." Day & Liley, The Secret World of a Baby, Random House, 1968, p. 13


A typical human brain isn't really formed until about 8 weeks after conception.
Only at the end of these 15 weeks does any form of brain activity occur. When is the brain functioning?

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120
Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564


Before 8 weeks, it's just a few thousands strands of DNA, doesn't have brains, limbs or a heart.When does the heart begin to beat?

At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. J.M. Tanner, G. R. Taylor, and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Growth, New York: Life Science Library, 1965, p.

How early do some organs form?

The eye, ear and respiratory systems begin to form four weeks after fertilization. K. Moore, Before We Were Born, 3rd ed., 1989, p. 278

And function?

Very early, e.g., glucagon, a blood sugar hormone, has been demonstrated in the fetal pancreas 6 weeks after fertilization, and insulin by 7 to 8. F. Cunningham, "Pancreas," William’s Obstet., 19th ed., 1993, p. 183-4
Thumbsucking has been photographed at 7 weeks after fertilization. W. Liley, The Fetus As Personality, Fetal Therapy, 1986, p. 8-17



Only at the end of these 15 weeks can it be called, in the loosest sense, alive.When does the developing baby first move?

"In the sixth to seventh weeks. . . . If the area of the lips is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. This is called a ‘total pattern response’ because it involves most of the body, rather than a local part." L. B. Arey, Developmental Anatomy (6th ed.), Philadelphia: W. B. Sanders Co., 1954
At eight weeks, "if we tickle the baby’s nose, he will flex his head backwards away from the stimulus." A. Hellgers, M.D., "Fetal Development, 31," Theological Studies, vol. 3, no. 7, 1970, p. 26
Another example is from a surgical technician whose letter said, "When we opened her abdomen (for a tubal pregnancy), the tube had expelled an inch-long fetus, about 4-6 weeks old. It was still alive in the sack. "That tiny baby was waving its little arms and kicking its little legs and even turned its whole body over." J. Dobson, Focus on the Family Mag., Aug. ’91, pg. 16

Exegetist
Mar 4th 2009, 08:43 PM
Jonahthebold,

God knows us in the womb and forms us in the womb. Thus from the moment we are conceived we are precious in God’s eyes.

In response to your other questions, there are similarities between the human skeleton and several other creatures. But what looks like a tail in a human fetus is, as someone shared, the end of the spine. There are nerves, muscles and ligaments that necessarily attach to it as the child develops. But in other animals that have similar skeletal forms, the tail continues on from there. They also have nerves, muscles and ligaments that necessarily attach to it.

The body that we live in has many similarities to other creatures. We share flesh. It does not make us less human. The nature of our humanity is that we are all created in the image of God. The flesh we share (including sex, which all creatures have) is not the image of God that distinguishes us from the animals. It is something else. And it is that something else that is living within the flesh of the fetus as it develops, that gets sent back to God without the chance to live, when a child is aborted.

truthseeker2
Mar 5th 2009, 01:51 AM
Some people may get angry at me for saying this (there's always a wrathful lordship salvationist somewhere), but, God isn't concerned whether someone is "gay" or "straight" (that's why homosexuality isn't condemned in the 10 commandments) it's how spiritually mature one is.
I wrote about the subject, particularly 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:


Homosexuals can indeed be saved by faith, NOTHING limits salvation; well, the lordship salvation does :lol: (just like the pharisees in Matthew 23:33).

Well I think it matters if you seek out a gay relationship. I think if you seek after that and you do not repent it's not going to be good.

If you struggle with being gay and you try to stop what you are doing that is a little different.

reformedct
Mar 5th 2009, 02:03 AM
The reason it is such a HUGE issue today with Christians is because the homosexual community is trying to FORCE Christians not only to pass absolutely no judgements on their behavior, but also to ACCEPT it. They want it taught to kids that there is nothing wrong with a gay couple getting married and rasing a family and that its no different than their mommy and daddy. They want gay marriage and the gay lifestyle looked upon as an acceptable alternative to traditional families. Besides believing that it is sinful and wrong, Christians also believe that GOD meant for children to be raised by a mother AND a DAD and that is what makes up a HEALTHY society and provides the best environment for children.

Christians are also targeted for humiliation and retribution by gay advocacy groups when they oppose ballot measures for gay marriage, donate money to groups working to defeat gay marriage meaures or to groups that promote a traditional view of family and marriage. Christians are called hate mongers, Biggots, fascists, morons, hicks, haters and lots of other rather vile names that can't be mentioned here when they oppose any expansion of the homosexual agenda that is currently being promoted and pursued in many states and the media.

Given the hatred that is generated for Christians by these homosexual groups it is no surprise that Christians are going to be strong in their beliefs that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of GOD, is sinful and shouldn't be promoted as something that is totally innocuous and normal. From what I have seen and read the real animosity and venom is NOT coming from Christians, but from the homosexual advocacy groups and their rather substantial and powerful supporters. Christians don't hate homosexuals, they hate their behavior and lifestyle because we believe GODS word teaches us so. Its the same as Christians would hate a man that is going out and committing adultery while his wife is at home with their children.

If there wasn't such a HUGE push in our culture from multiple sides against Christians to equate gay marriage and the gay lifestyle with what a man and woman share when they date and eventually wed, and normalize their behavior, I don't think homosexuality would be nearly the hot button issue that it is. Sure Christians would still believe it was sinful and immoral, but there wouldn't be such a bright spotlight put on it and viewed as an attack on our beliefs and morality like it currently is.


As for abortion, I don't even know where to start with that one. You either believe that what is in a mothers womb is a baby or it isn't. If you can repeatedly tell and therefore convince yourself that it's nothing more than a clump of cells, it ain't no big deal to get rid of it using any means necessary and have no ill feelings when it's done. In this country that we live in, a woman can have her 9 month old baby's head delivered outside her body and a "doctor" can plunge a pair of scissors into its brain and murder it right there on the table, all under the banner of "freedom or choice." No matter what you tell yourself there is no getting around it that the end result of an abortion is that the most precious thing GOD created, a baby, is DEAD.

I'll close by saying that I think that its a tremendous failure of our churches and ministers in preaching GODS word and teaching the Bible to their church members when there exists people that call themselves christians and are "pro choice."

BD


the whole "tolerance" movement can be summed up as follows:


"i wanna do whatever the heck i want and i dont want anybody telling me its wrong so i dont feel bad and i want everyone to accept my beliefs and if they dont they should be punished"

can anything be more arrogant?

then when Christians try to get them to accept their beliefs they say christians are intolerant lol

basically everyone can do and believe and teach anything they want when it comes to right and wrong except christians

its bassically just a denial and rejection of God. its not christians who have made the rules. its God. people hate chritsians because they hate God


people want to make themselves feel better about their sin so they want the culture to accept their style of life and promote it so they can feel like waht they are doing is ok. its outright rebellion against God. under their system anything goes but God