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JerryShugart
Mar 1st 2009, 09:12 PM
There are some sincere Christians on this forum who say that one can lose their salvation. They quote verses which they think support their views. However, when examining this issue we should go to the "best evidence" available in the Scriptures, verses that acually speak of "eternal life."

Here we see that the Apostle John tells the Christian that they have already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

The following words from the lips of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

How can anyone argue that those who have already been given "eternal life" can somehow lose their salvation since the Lord Jesus Himself said that "they shall never perish"?

I will address any verses that anyone might quote in an effort to prove that the Christian does not enjoy eternal security. But they must address these verses from the pen of the Apostle John.

In His grace,
Jerry

Watchmen
Mar 1st 2009, 09:13 PM
I thought this was a poll, short answer Eternal Security is false, I will give a more detailed answer after the thread gets going good.

AlanR742
Mar 1st 2009, 09:35 PM
Eternal Security is NOT false, people who say it is are "Lordship Salvationists" and believe you MUST earn salvation by yourself and through works - not relying on faith to save. When you do this, your works become void, and so does your faith, for, you nullify the cross.



1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Even if the flesh gets turned unto Satan, the SPIRIT IS STILL SAVED!

Butch5
Mar 1st 2009, 09:47 PM
There are some sincere Christians on this forum who say that one can lose their salvation. They quote verses which they think support their views. However, when examining this issue we should go to the "best evidence" available in the Scriptures, verses that acually speak of "eternal life."

Here we see that the Apostle John tells the Christian that they have already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

The following words from the lips of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

How can anyone argue that those who have already been given "eternal life" can somehow lose their salvation since the Lord Jesus Himself said that "they shall never perish"?

I will address any verses that anyone might quote in an effort to prove that the Christian does not enjoy eternal security. But they must address these verses from the pen of the Apostle John.

In His grace,
Jerry


The eternal life that John speaks of is in Christ, if one is no longer in Christ, one no longer has this eternal life.


John 10:28 Speaks of those who follow, His sheep. Christ, if one no longer follows Christ, then one is no long one of His sheep.

I'll pose this passage to you,


Mark 9:35-50 ( KJV ) 35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part.



41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

If a believer cannot lose salvation, please explain to me why Jesus would call the twelve and say, to Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest, it is better for you to enter life (eternal) maimed than to be whole and go into hell, into the fire that is not quenched.

Butch5
Mar 1st 2009, 09:49 PM
Eternal Security is NOT false, people who say it is are "Lordship Salvationists" and believe you MUST earn salvation by yourself and through works - not relying on faith to save. When you do this, your works become void, and so does your faith, for, you nullify the cross.


Even if the flesh gets turned unto Satan, the SPIRIT IS STILL SAVED!

Could you please supply a little support for your statement?

AlanR742
Mar 1st 2009, 11:11 PM
The eternal life that John speaks of is in Christ, if one is no longer in Christ, one no longer has this eternal life.
John 10:28 Speaks of those who follow, His sheep. Christ, if one no longer follows Christ, then one is no long one of His sheep.

I'll pose this passage to you,

Mark 9:35-50 ( KJV ) 35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part.



41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.


If a believer cannot lose salvation, please explain to me why Jesus would call the twelve and say, to Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest, it is better for you to enter life (eternal) maimed than to be whole and go into hell, into the fire that is not quenched.

Okay first, you're just rambling. That statement is neutral, I could also use it in terms of works salvation; i.e. doing works instead of relying of faith. That verse does not do justice for doing works to salvation, you are using an indirect means to purport a doctrine (our works don't account for anything, Isaiah 64:6, so, can't account for salvation).

First, salvation is NOT of ourselves:


For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. – Romans 10:3-4

Using Romans 4:5-6 as a basis, EVERYONE in the Bible was saved through faith - GOD'S righteousness being IMPUTED upon them THROUGH FAITH not works (outlined previously):


And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. – Genesis 15:6
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. – Romans 4:3
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. – Galatians 3:6
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. – James 2:23

This is ratified here:

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: – Romans 3:22
Our "righteousness" HAS NO DIFFERENCE - for, salvation and righteousness comes THROUGH faith by believing Christ paid for your sins.


“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” – Matthew 7:21-23
This passage has a few key elements:
#1 The “will of my father” refers to John 6:40: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” – John 6:40
#2 the people being “rejected” are those professing they have done GOOD WORKS
#3 God says they have done “iniquity” (thus inferring they never accepted his righteousness still having their sins upon them)

Concerining our royal priest status, doing things by WORKS vs. faith cannot coexist:

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. – Galatians 3:18
Hence:
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:” – Romans 4:14
So if you're working by THE LAW (works) and NOT ONLY BY FAITH: your faith is VOID (nullifying the cross), and the PROMISE (inheritances) IS MADE OF NONE EFFECT!

JerryShugart
Mar 1st 2009, 11:18 PM
The eternal life that John speaks of is in Christ, if one is no longer in Christ, one no longer has this eternal life.
Hi Butch5,

John tells the Christian that he already has been given a life in the Son. He uses the adjective "eternal" to describe the life that the Christian has in Jesus Christ. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So in effect John tells the Christian that they have been given a life in Jesus Christ, and that life will never cease.

If one could lose this life in Christ then it is evident that the life was never "eternal" to begin with. But John states in no uncertan terms the life in Christ is without end.

John 10:28 Speaks of those who follow, His sheep. Christ, if one no longer follows Christ, then one is no long one of His sheep.Those who John told had already been given eternal life at 1 John 5:11 were obviously His sheep. And there are NO conditions attached to the Lord Jesus' words here:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

This is an "unconditional" statement but according to you there was a "condition" attached. Anyone can make the Bible say anything they want it to say by adding "conditions" to unconditional statements.

Now to the verses which you quoted:

42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. By the grace of God we have parallel verses of the Lord Jesus' words in the gospel of Matthew and those verses help us to understand the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words:

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" (Mt.18:6-9).

Here the Lord Jesus is speaking about those in the "world," meaning that the pronouns which He uses are not in regard to those who had already received eternal life.

He is saying that those of the world would be sent to hell because they were failing to deal with the basic cause of their sins. Of course self-mutiliation would not remove the source of their sins, which is the heart (Mt.15:18-20).

The Lord Jesus was also teaching that it is better to be a believer and to enter eternal life (Jn.5:24), and to do that maimed, than to be an unbeliever, who will go to hell. The unbeliever never deals with the source of his sins and refuses eternal life with God on His terms.

Nothing that the Lord Jesus said in these verses teaches that those who have been given eternal life can perish. Instead, the contrast is between those who will inherit eternal life and those who will not.

In His grace,
Jerry

Bladers
Mar 1st 2009, 11:35 PM
There are some sincere Christians on this forum who say that one can lose their salvation. They quote verses which they think support their views. However, when examining this issue we should go to the "best evidence" available in the Scriptures, verses that acually speak of "eternal life."

Here we see that the Apostle John tells the Christian that they have already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

The following words from the lips of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

How can anyone argue that those who have already been given "eternal life" can somehow lose their salvation since the Lord Jesus Himself said that "they shall never perish"?

I will address any verses that anyone might quote in an effort to prove that the Christian does not enjoy eternal security. But they must address these verses from the pen of the Apostle John.

In His grace,
Jerry



1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(Its pretty clear that many will depart from the faith)

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
(Paul tells us if we continue, meaning that there is a possibility of not continuing)

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Here we see again that it is possible to fall away, and impossible to renew them!)

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position [THE FAITH].
(Here we see again that it is possible to fall away)

It is so plain and simple, but alot of people has been blinded to believe "OSAS". And the Holy Spirit calls it a doctrine of devils!

MacGyver
Mar 2nd 2009, 12:40 AM
As I read through some of the thread I can tell that there are some misunderstandings. Especially when it is said that we are "Lordship Salvationists" or we think we "earn our salvation." I know some people might believe that, but my Faith does not teach that and I don't believe in once in grace always in grace either. I believe we are saved by grace, period. Faith is the main instrument to receive grace, and that faith produces deeds that make our faith not be in vain.

I do believe that we have a free will, and we can choose to reject God after we have been converted. Sure, noting can snatch us out of God's hands, that is, no outside force. But we can reject God and fall from grace.

HisLeast
Mar 2nd 2009, 12:46 AM
The thing that concerns me most with OSAS NOSAS discussions... is it always seems to revolve around other people's salvation, rather than one's own.

I've got enough to worry about wondering if I'll ever be saved.

Vhayes
Mar 2nd 2009, 12:58 AM
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(Its pretty clear that many will depart from the faith)

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
(Paul tells us if we continue, meaning that there is a possibility of not continuing)

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Here we see again that it is possible to fall away, and impossible to renew them!)

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position [THE FAITH].
(Here we see again that it is possible to fall away)

It is so plain and simple, but alot of people has been blinded to believe "OSAS". And the Holy Spirit calls it a doctrine of devils!
The departing from the faith is leaving behind the Lord and honoring something other than Him - for instance SELF. YOUR faith does not heal anything - it is He in Whom you place your faith.

I had a very good friend die from this nonsense. And the good "man of God" said it was a shame about Gary but his faith just wasn't strong enough - his diabetes would never have caused problems if his faith had just been strong enough.

Well gee whiz, guess what - within 12 years that good "man of God" died from occular cancer, cancer of the eye - how apt. There is none so blind as those than will not see.

It's all about Jesus and not about the believer. The believer is an extension or an expression of Christ.

Sorry Bladers but I've seen all that and I'll walk away, thank you. The Holy Spirit works in me just as much as He does in Benny Hinn - so I would tell you to use caution when ANYTHING or anyone takes precedence over Christ.

V

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 01:17 AM
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(Its pretty clear that many will depart from the faith)
Bladers,

I said that if anyone wants to quote verses to attempt to disprove eternal security then they must first address the verses that I quoted on my initial post. After you do that then pick one of your verses and I will address it.

In His grace,
Jerry

stuart shepherd
Mar 2nd 2009, 01:27 AM
These Scriptures seem to be relevant to this discussion.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (King James Version)
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29 (King James Version)
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

These Scriptures appear to be saying that if after you are a Christian you continue to sin then you are lost completely and it is impossible to be renewed to repentance.

Pretty Scary...huh

Stuart Shepherd

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2009, 01:29 AM
JerryShugart---John tells the Christian that he already has been given a life in the Son. He uses the adjective "eternal" to describe the life that the Christian has in Jesus Christ. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
So in effect John tells the Christian that they have been given a life in Jesus Christ, and that life will never cease.
If one could lose this life in Christ then it is evident that the life was never "eternal" to begin with. But John states in no uncertan terms the life in Christ is without end.


First let me say this, John uses the present tense of the Greek word, so, John is actually saying, he who "is believing", present tense, the one who is currently believing. If one is not currently believing then he does not have eternal life. John is clear that this eternal life is for the one who currently believes. Also if believers already had eternal life, why would Jesus make this statement?

Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Why would a believer need to eat from the tree of life if he already had eternal life? According to God eternal life comes from the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22 ( KJV ) 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
God says if one eats from the tree of life he will live forever, Jesus promised to give to eat of this tree, to the believer who overcomes, what need would there be if a believer already has eternal life.
Paul says that believers receive the down payment of their inheritance when they believe.

Ephesians 1:12-14 ( KJV ) 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Paul also said,

Titus 1:1-2 ( KJV ) 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Titus 3:7 ( KJV ) 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Why would one hope for what they already had?
John's statement was simply the promise of eternal life for those in Christ. They are not in possession of it.

As far as eternal life, the life is eternal whether one has it or not.




JerryShugart---Those who John told had already been given eternal life at 1 John 5:11 were obviously His sheep. And there are NO conditions attached to the Lord Jesus' words here:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
This is an "unconditional" statement but according to you there was a "condition" attached. Anyone can make the Bible say anything they want it to say by adding "conditions" to unconditional statements.


You seem to have overlooked something, the statement is "not unconditional", look at who Jesus is speaking of, the promise is to His sheep, no one else. In order to obtain the promise you must meet a condition, you must be one of His sheep.



JerryShugart---Now to the verses which you quoted:
By the grace of God we have parallel verses of the Lord Jesus' words in the gospel of Matthew and those verses help us to understand the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words:
"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" (Mt.18:6-9).
Here the Lord Jesus is speaking about those in the "world," meaning that the pronouns which He uses are not in regard to those who had already received eternal life.
He is saying that those of the world would be sent to hell because they were failing to deal with the basic cause of their sins. Of course self-mutiliation would not remove the source of their sins, which is the heart (Mt.15:18-20).
The Lord Jesus was also teaching that it is better to be a believer and to enter eternal life (Jn.5:24), and to do that maimed, than to be an unbeliever, who will go to hell. The unbeliever never deals with the source of his sins and refuses eternal life with God on His terms.
Nothing that the Lord Jesus said in these verses teaches that those who have been given eternal life can perish. Instead, the contrast is between those who will inherit eternal life and those who will not.



That's funny because I was going to use the Matthew passage in my post. You posted the Matthew passage without addressing the passage in Mark. In the passage in Mark it clearly says Jesus called the 12 to Him and began teaching them, so He was saying these things to Matthew, Peter, John, and the other disciples. So I will ask you again, why would Jesus say this to His disciples if it was impossible for them to lose salvation???
Now, regarding the passage in Matthew, you claim Jesus was speaking to the world and about unbelievers. Even if there were unbelievers there, Jesus said this,

Matthew 5:1-2 ( KJV ) 1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Once again we have Jesus teaching His disciples, so, if they could not lose salvation why is He teaching them that they can???

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2009, 01:47 AM
devonrose---Okay first, you're just rambling. That statement is neutral, I could also use it in terms of works salvation; i.e. doing works instead of relying of faith. That verse does not do justice for doing works to salvation, you are using an indirect means to purport a doctrine (our works don't account for anything, Isaiah 64:6, so, can't account for salvation).

I'm Rambling? First of all I didn't say anything about works and salvation. I simply asked, why would Jesus tell His disciples to be careful to avoid hell, if it was not possible that they could God there?

BTW, Isaiah 64:6, Isaiah is speaking of Israel's righteousness being as filthy rags. He says "our", look at the context, it is a prayer, Isaiah is interceding on behalf of Israel, he did not say all men righteousness is as filthy rags.


devonrose---First, salvation is NOT of ourselves:

Using Romans 4:5-6 as a basis, EVERYONE in the Bible was saved through faith - GOD'S righteousness being IMPUTED upon them THROUGH FAITH not works (outlined previously):


Initial salavation does come through faith, however once one is in this relationship with Christ, there are works that must be done,



devonrose---Concerining our royal priest status, doing things by WORKS vs. faith cannot coexist:

Faith and works cannot coexist??? You might want to speak to James on that issue,

James 2:21-24 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You see how a man is not justified by faith only??? As I said initially when you come to Christ you are save without works, once in the relationship there are works to be done.


devonrose---So if you're working by THE LAW (works) and NOT ONLY BY FAITH: your faith is VOID (nullifying the cross), and the PROMISE (inheritances) IS MADE OF NONE EFFECT!

You are confusing the works of hte law with works of righteousness, Paul speaks of hte works of the law, James speaks of works of righteousness. The works of the law cannot save.

Watchmen
Mar 2nd 2009, 01:51 AM
Scriptures that disprove Eternal Security.

The good Olive Tree. (Romans 11:22)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.
Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.



''IF'' we continue in the faith. Colossians 1:21-23
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.



Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those that were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This passage of scripture is scary but it does need to be addressed. It is obvious that the people referred to in these verses were at one time saved and that they were able to fall away. It also says that there are places you can go in God that after you been to these heights if you were to fall away you cannot return. How far or deep you need to be in God to reach this point, I do not know. However what is clear is that the OSAS doctrine does not mesh with this passage of scripture.
A better question for those of you that adhere to the OSAS doctrine, rather than what is the point of no return, is can you turn from God after salvation? Better yet, are you now living in a backslidden condition without even realizing it? Do you care more about you own life, cares, wants, lusts than about serving God? Have you placed yourself above God? If so you have fallen away and are in desperate need of repentance.



Returning to your own vomit 2nd Peter 2:20-22
2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
Let's look at these verses one at a time.
Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?
Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.
I will touch more on this in a future chapter about Christians that return to or continue in sin when I get to Hebrews 10:26-31 but right now let's look at what Jesus said in Luke 12:47-48
Luke 12:47-48
47 And the servant, which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did thing worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Those that have been saved and truly know God's will, if they fall away they will suffer worse than those that never knew God or His will at all.
Verse 22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
When we as Christians turn back to sin it is like a dog returning to his own vomit. Also those of us that have had our sins washed away by the blood of Christ. If we turn from Him and back to the world, then it is like a pig that had been washed returning to the mud pit.


There is no question that all of these passages individually and definitely in combination prove that the Eternal Security/OSAS doctrine is unbiblical at best and a lie of Satan at worst.

Forklifter
Mar 2nd 2009, 02:21 AM
There are some sincere Christians on this forum who say that one can lose their salvation. They quote verses which they think support their views. However, when examining this issue we should go to the "best evidence" available in the Scriptures, verses that acually speak of "eternal life."

Here we see that the Apostle John tells the Christian that they have already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

The following words from the lips of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

How can anyone argue that those who have already been given "eternal life" can somehow lose their salvation since the Lord Jesus Himself said that "they shall never perish"?

I will address any verses that anyone might quote in an effort to prove that the Christian does not enjoy eternal security. But they must address these verses from the pen of the Apostle John.

In His grace,
Jerry

Hello Jerry,

Jesus or John did not use the term unconditional in there teachings. It is easy to pick any scripture as a proof text, ignoring the context and all else said and build a doctrine.

1John is full of qualifiers. Here is only a couple.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

You are totally taking John (and God for that matter) way out of context to pull one verse out and make it say something he (He) never intended. John never uses any terms that would indicate unconditional security, you are injecting that.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus here qualifies His statement very clearly. Verse 28 is totally dependent on verse 27. As long as we hear Him, and follow Him, no man will pluck us from His hand. Again you are guilty of taking Jesus out of context and putting words in His mouth. He is not coming close to teaching unconditional security.

You should teach the whole counsel of God. The scriptures are clear that the believer can, and does have security when we walk with God.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The scriptures also clearly teach that one has free will, both before and after conversion, and can loose their salvation.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

There is clarity in the whole counsel of God.

God Bless,
JP

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 03:46 AM
First let me say this, John uses the present tense of the Greek word, so, John is actually saying, he who "is believing", present tense, the one who is currently believing. If one is not currently believing then he does not have eternal life. John is clear that this eternal life is for the one who currently believes. Also if believers already had eternal life, why would Jesus make this statement?
Butch5,

Whatever the requirement was for receiving eternal life had already been met by those Christians whom John addressed.

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

The Christians were told by John that they already have been given a life in the Son, and he describes that life as being "without end." But you failed to address that fact.

And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish." That even makes it more secure. They have been given a life in the Son that will never cease and the Lord Jesus says that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish."

Not only that, but Jude says that the Christian has been "preserved" in Christ Jesus (Jude 1).

You seem to have overlooked something, the statement is "not unconditional", look at who Jesus is speaking of, the promise is to His sheep, no one else. In order to obtain the promise you must meet a condition, you must be one of His sheep.In order to receive eternal life one must be His sheep. And to those are His sheep the Lord gives them eternal life. So it is obvious that the Christians John addresses here have met the "condition" because they have been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

The statement by the Lord Jesus at John 10:28 is not "conditional." If the Lord Jesus' statement was "conditional" He would say, And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish IF they do this or do not do that.

That is a "conditional" statement. But the Lord made an "unconditional" statement, saying that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish." Period. End of Story. No conditions.

But you deny what he says when you say that the Christian who has already been given eternal life can indeed perish.

Now you want to argue that even though John told them that they had already been given eternal life that they really did not have it:

Titus 3:7 ( KJV ) 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Why would one hope for what they already had?
John's statement was simply the promise of eternal life for those in Christ. They are not in possession of it.
The "hope" refers to the "blessed hope," the redemption of our body. This hope of eternal life is referring to the eternal, glorious body that the Christian will put on when he meets the Lord in the air at the rapture.

Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Why would a believer need to eat from the tree of life if he already had eternal life? According to God eternal life comes from the tree of life.
The Lord Jesus is addressing the outward frame of thechurch at Ephesus, a church made up of both "wheat" and "tares." He is using figurative language, saying that the ones in that church that overcome will receive eternal life. And it is only those with true "faith" in the churches who are overcomers (1 Jn.5:1-5).

Paul says that believers receive the down payment of their inheritance when they believe.

Ephesians 1:12-14 ( KJV ) 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Yes, the down payment for the glorious and eternal body that the Christian will receive on the day of redemption (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).

You posted the Matthew passage without addressing the passage in Mark.
The whole discourse of the Lord Jesus was a reply to the Apostle's question as to whom among them would be greatest in the earthly kingdom (Mt.18:1; Mk.9:34;Lk.9:46). There was no question as to whether or not they would enter the kingdom. Instead the question being discussed was who among them would bde the greatest in the kingdom. In fact, just a little later the Lord Jesus assured them that they would sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel in the kingdom (Mt.19:28; Lk.22:30).

In His grace,
Jerry

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 04:30 AM
Hello Jerry,

Jesus or John did not use the term unconditional in there teachings.
Hi Forklifter,

They did not have to use the term "unconditional." The statements either have a "condition" attached or it doesn't. And the statements that I quoted did not have any "condition" attached.

It is easy to pick any scripture as a proof text, ignoring the context and all else said and build a doctrine.

1John is full of qualifiers. Here is only a couple.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Those verses are addressed to those who already believe and are already saved. If the Christian confesses his sins then he will be cleansed from those sins (1 Jn.1:9). This is in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. This says nothing about anyone loosing eternal life.

You are totally taking John (and God for that matter) way out of context to pull one verse out and make it say something he (He) never intended. John never uses any terms that would indicate unconditional security, you are injecting that.The words I quoted could not be plainer. It is you who wants to change the meaning of the words.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus here qualifies His statement very clearly. Verse 28 is totally dependent on verse 27. As long as we hear Him, and follow Him, no man will pluck us from His hand. Again you are guilty of taking Jesus out of context and putting words in His mouth. He is not coming close to teaching unconditional security. The Christians to whom John told that they had already been given eternal life had obviously met all the conditions for receiving eternal life or they would not have been given it.

The life that they had been given was in the Son, and John used the adjective "eternal" to describe that life in the Son. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So according to John the Christian has already been given a life in the Son which will never end. You say that it can.

The Lord Jesus says that those whom have been given eternal life shall never perish. You say that they can.

You should teach the whole counsel of God. The scriptures are clear that the believer can, and does have security when we walk with God.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. This is regard to the Christian's "walk" and not to His standing before God, risen with Christ and sitting together with Him in heavenly places (Eph.2:6) and "preserved in Christ Jesus" (Jude 1).

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repentance" is "to have a change of mind". It does not always refer to "repentance toward God", and the only other time that the word is used in Hebrews it simply means "a change of mind" (Heb.12:17).

So in verse six the thought is that if they should fall away from some truth then it would not be possible to make them change their mind in regard to that truth. And it is not difficult to see what truth they were ignoring-"they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh."

Despite the teaching that they were no longer under the law they were keeping the law and offering sacrifices that were required under the law and therefore they were crucifying the Son of God afresh.

This verse is not in regard to "repentance torward God", or else we must believe that it is impossible for them to have a change of mind in regard to believing in God. The Lord would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth so therefore He would never say that it is impossible for anyone to have a change of mind toward Him. The door is always open, even for the worst of men.

There is clarity in the whole counsel of God.I see no clarity in the way that you treat 1 John 5:11 or John 10:28. The Lord Jesus made it plain that those who believe have everlasting life and will not come into condemnation:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

The Lord says that those who believe will not come into condemnation but you say that they can!

You can address my points here and then quote any verse which you think proves that those who have received eternal life can perrish.

In His grace,
Jerry

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2009, 05:37 AM
JerryShugart---Whatever the requirement was for receiving eternal life had already been met by those Christians whom John addressed.

Yes, it had been met. However the life is conditioned on "present continual belief", therefore it one stops believing they no long are meeting the condition.


JerryShugart---"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

The Christians were told by John that they already have been given a life in the Son, and he describes that life as being "without end." But you failed to address that fact.




On the contrary, I showed you from Scripture how one does not have eternal life until the resurrection. Look at the verse you quoted, where is the eternal life??? It is in His Son. God has given us eternal life, what is that life? It is Christ, the life is in Christ. If you don't have Christ you don't have life.


JerryShugart---And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish." That even makes it more secure. They have been given a life in the Son that will never cease and the Lord Jesus says that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish."

Those who continue to meet the condition shall never perish, read verse 27. Verse 28 "only" applies to those in verse 27.


JerryShugart---Not only that, but Jude says that the Christian has been "preserved" in Christ Jesus (Jude 1).

Yes, he does, and Peter goes on to explain how one is "preserved" in Christ Jesus,


1 Peter 1:3-5 ( KJV ) 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice how they are kept, by faith, or as John says, a present tense continual belief.

Also notice when the salvation is revealed, "in the last time". If salvation is not revealed until the last time, how does one have unconditional eternal life before that ?



JerryShugart---In order to receive eternal life one must be His sheep. And to those are His sheep the Lord gives them eternal life. So it is obvious that the Christians John addresses here have met the "condition" because they have been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).


Again, what did God give them??? His Son.


JerryShugart---The statement by the Lord Jesus at John 10:28 is not "conditional." If the Lord Jesus' statement was "conditional" He would say, And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish IF they do this or do not do that.

Sorry my friend, but you just admitted that it is conditional in your statement above this one. You said, in order to receive eternal life one must be of His sheep. That is a condition. If you are not a sheep you don't get the life.


JerryShugart---That is a "conditional" statement. But the Lord made an "unconditional" statement, saying that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish." Period. End of Story. No conditions.

Who are the ones He gives eternal life to? His sheep, only His sheep. Now consider also that Jesus said "I give them eternal life", not I gave them eternal life. Jesus statement goes right along with John's, it is present tense, Jesus said I give them eternal life, not I gave them eternal life.


JerryShugart---But you deny what he says when you say that the Christian who has already been given eternal life can indeed perish.

The Christian has been given Christ, in whom is eternal life. The verse is clearly predicated on a continual belief in Christ, a fact you seem to be avoiding.


JerryShugart---Now you want to argue that even though John told them that they had already been given eternal life that they really did not have it:

They had Christ, in whom is eternal life.


JerryShugart---The "hope" refers to the "blessed hope," the redemption of our body. This hope of eternal life is referring to the eternal, glorious body that the Christian will put on when he meets the Lord in the air at the rapture.

Funny, Paul says in hope of eternal life.


JerryShugart---The Lord Jesus is addressing the outward frame of thechurch at Ephesus, a church made up of both "wheat" and "tares." He is using figurative language, saying that the ones in that church that overcome will receive eternal life. And it is only those with true "faith" in the churches who are overcomers (1 Jn.5:1-5).

That doesn't address the issue, which is, that eating from the tree of life will let one live forever.



JerryShugart---Yes, the down payment for the glorious and eternal body that the Christian will receive on the day of redemption (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).

It is the down payment of the purchased redemption.


JerryShugart---The whole discourse of the Lord Jesus was a reply to the Apostle's question as to whom among them would be greatest in the earthly kingdom (Mt.18:1; Mk.9:34;Lk.9:46). There was no question as to whether or not they would enter the kingdom. Instead the question being discussed was who among them would bde the greatest in the kingdom. In fact, just a little later the Lord Jesus assured them that they would sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel in the kingdom (Mt.19:28; Lk.22:30).

The subject of the discourse is not the issue, the issue is why did Jesus tell them to be careful they did not end up in hell. Regarding the 12 thrones, let me say this, Judas was one of those twelve, will he be sitting on one of those thrones???

So I ask again, why did Jesus tell Peter, John, Mattew, and the rest to be careful they did not end up in hell, if that was not possible?

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 03:22 PM
On the contrary, I showed you from Scripture how one does not have eternal life until the resurrection.
There is no need for me to continue this discussion with you. You deny that anyone had eternal life until the resurrection despite the clear words of John here:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

According to you John is not telling anyone that God has given to them eternal life. And I suppose that you will deny that the following verse is saying that those who believe have eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

It would be a waste of my time to continue this discussion with you since you deny the obvious.

In His grace,
Jerry

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 04:43 PM
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
I will address this verse for you, Forklifter.

Let us look at the following verse: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet.2:21).

These people were obviously saved because they knew "the way of righteousness", which is by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:2,4).

They knew the "way of righteousness" was by denying "worldy lusts" and "ungodliness":

"Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:12).

However, after being saved and knowing the "way of righteousness" they turned away from the "holy commandment". The Greek word translated "commandment" means "of the whole body of moral precepts of Christianity 2 Pet. ii. 21" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The words of Peter at 2 Peter 2:20-21 are speaking of some Christians who were born again and they are described as "those who are just escaping from those who live in error" (v.18) and as having escaped the pollutions of the world (v.20). However,some false teachers had "promised them liberty" (v.19) and allured them through the lusts of their flesh into believing a false teaching in regard to "morals".

This false teaching is probably the same thing that Paul refers to at Romans 3:8--that the Christians were falsely accused of teaching "Let us do evil that good may come." This was a false teaching that said that the more we sin then the more that grace will abound, and was based on a false interpretation of the words at Romans 6:1-"shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

So the people who had escaped moral pollution by the knowledge of the gospel as well as the moral teachings that urge the Christian to keep himself "holy" had been deceived into believing that they should continue to sin so that grace would abound even more. They returned to their old way of life (v.22). They are worse off now and it would have been better if they had never even heard the moral commandments at first because now they have no excuse for their behavior.

In His grace,
Jerry

Vhayes
Mar 2nd 2009, 05:00 PM
So the people who had escaped moral pollution by the knowledge of the gospel as well as the moral teachings that urge the Christian to keep himself "holy" had been deceived into believing that they should continue to sin so that grace would abound even more. They returned to their old way of life (v.22). They are worse off now and it would have been better if they had never even heard the moral commandments at first because now they have no excuse for their behavior.

In His grace,
Jerry
Good post, Jerry!

If I might add a thought to this final paragraph - not only are they worse off because they have no excuse, God will not discipline an unbeliever but He will certainly discipline one of His children. Therefore "life" becomes far more difficult when we turn our backs on that which we know is what God expects.
V

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 05:30 PM
42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Here we see the Lord Jesus addressing His Apostles and using the pronoun "thee."

Some assume that this automatically means that the word "thee" there applied to those to whom He was speaking. However, this assumption is proven to be false because we can see an example of another place when the Lord used the pronoun "ye" to those He was speaking to but that pronoun did not apply to them:

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar" (Mt.23:35).

None of the Jews whom the Lord Jesus directed these words slew Zacharias between the temple and the altar. That happened hundreds of years before (2 Chron.25:21). So when the Lord Jesus used the pronoun "ye" at Matthew 23:35 it did not apply directly to the people He was addressing.

In His grace,
Jerry

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 05:36 PM
Good post, Jerry!

If I might add a thought to this final paragraph - not only are they worse off because they have no excuse, God will not discipline an unbeliever but He will certainly discipline one of His children. Therefore "life" becomes far more difficult when we turn our backs on that which we know is what God expects.
V
Thanks, Vhayes. You are correct that the Lord will indeed chasten the believer, and that is another reason that those spoken of in 2 Peter 2:21 were worse off than if they had never heard the moral commandments. Thanks for your thoughts.

In His grace,
Jerry

MacGyver
Mar 2nd 2009, 05:47 PM
St. Peter points out something that I think answers a few things concerning this

2 Peter 1
5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. (τῶν (http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=τῶν&root=ὁ&number=712463) πάλαι (http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=πάλαι&root=πάλαι&number=712464) αὐτοῦ (http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=αὐτοῦ&root=αὐτός&number=712465) ἁμαρτιῶν (http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=ἁμαρτιῶν&root=ἁμαρτία&number=712466) ) 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election , for if you do this you will never fall;(οὐ (http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=οὐ&root=οὐ&number=712481) μὴ (http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=μὴ&root=μή&number=712482) πταίσητέ (http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=πταίσητέ&root=πταίω&number=712483) ποτε (http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=ποτε&root=ποτέ&number=712484) ) 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

St. Peter points out that an effort is required on our part, that is, to be virtueous, to know our Faith, to be loyal/steadfast, to be godly, love our brethren, and to love. Also notice that he says we are cleansed of our former sins, not future sins. Zeal for our Faith confirms our election, and he also goes further to show the possibility of falling from entering into the eternal kingdom.

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2009, 06:49 PM
There is no need for me to continue this discussion with you. You deny that anyone had eternal life until the resurrection despite the clear words of John here:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

According to you John is not telling anyone that God has given to them eternal life. And I suppose that you will deny that the following verse is saying that those who believe have eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

It would be a waste of my time to continue this discussion with you since you deny the obvious.

In His grace,
Jerry

That's fine, people usually leave the discussion when they have to answer the questions directly.

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2009, 06:54 PM
[/color]
Here we see the Lord Jesus addressing His Apostles and using the pronoun "thee."

Some assume that this automatically means that the word "thee" there applied to those to whom He was speaking. However, this assumption is proven to be false because we can see an example of another place when the Lord used the pronoun "ye" to those He was speaking to but that pronoun did not apply to them:

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar" (Mt.23:35).

None of the Jews whom the Lord Jesus directed these words slew Zacharias between the temple and the altar. That happened hundreds of years before (2 Chron.25:21). So when the Lord Jesus used the pronoun "ye" at Matthew 23:35 it did not apply directly to the people He was addressing.

In His grace,
Jerry

LOL, so when the Scriptures say that Jesus sat with the 12 and said, you to them, he meant someone else? Come on man.

In the verse you quoted where Jesus says whom you slew, obviously it refer to you Jews.

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2009, 07:08 PM
Here's another on for you Jerry,


Mark 11:21-26 ( KJV ) 21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. 22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

If they already had eternal life, why did Jesus tell them that if they did not forgive others, their sins would not be forgiven? Remember Jesus is speaking to the disciples, Peter is mentioned by name. can a person enter into eternal life with unforgiven sin?

stuart shepherd
Mar 2nd 2009, 07:29 PM
[/color]
Here we see the Lord Jesus addressing His Apostles and using the pronoun "thee."

Some assume that this automatically means that the word "thee" there applied to those to whom He was speaking. However, this assumption is proven to be false because we can see an example of another place when the Lord used the pronoun "ye" to those He was speaking to but that pronoun did not apply to them:

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar" (Mt.23:35).

None of the Jews whom the Lord Jesus directed these words slew Zacharias between the temple and the altar. That happened hundreds of years before (2 Chron.25:21). So when the Lord Jesus used the pronoun "ye" at Matthew 23:35 it did not apply directly to the people He was addressing.

In His grace,
Jerry


Hey Jerry,
Did you notice the problem?

When Jesus spoke to the Scribes and Pharisees he talked about ""Zacharias son of Barachias,""

Matthew 23:35 (King James Version)
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

In order for the Scribes and Pharisees to understand what Jesus was talking about we would expect that Zechariah would be someone that they knew about from the Scriptures.
The incident from 2Chronicles 24:20-21 would seem to fit the circumstances.

2 Chronicles 24:20-21 (King James Version)
20And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you. 21And they conspired against him, and stoned him with stones at the commandment of the king in the court of the house of the LORD.

The problem is that the Zechariah in 2Chonicles is Zechariah the son of Jehoiada and not the Zacharias son of Barachias, mentioned by Jesus.


Zacharias son of Barachias, is the author of the book by the minor prophet Zechariah.

See the problem?

Stuart Shepherd

Veretax
Mar 2nd 2009, 07:53 PM
My biggest problem with those that preach Holiness/Perseverence of the Saints is this. If man can do nothing to please God before Faith, and I think we agree on that, there is no work we do that is not filthy rags absent Christ, and that salvation comes as a Gift from God, not merited by any man or woman on earth, and is thus given to us by the Grace of God, accepted by our faith, then I have to marvel at the idea that we can some how lose something God has bestowed upon us. Where are the verses in scripture where God says he will take back what he has given? I'm not sure any taken in context exist. Furthermore, as it is written in Romans, we are no longer under the Law but grace:

Ro 3:19-31 (NKJV)

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Romans 3:19-31 (NKJV)


We are justified by Faith, not works. Good works are a natural result of Salvation, they are the fruits of Faith, but if God justifies us, why do we want to believe that we can change what God has already done?

BroRog
Mar 2nd 2009, 08:18 PM
Jesus tells a parable about the sower, and lucky for us, he actually explains what it means.

Luke 8, starting in verse 5

The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.

Before I quote Jesus' explanation, let's understand the story on it's own terms. The sower is a farmer and he expects to get a crop from his seed. The farmer has prepared the soil in advance to accept the seed. But he when he broadcasts the seed, some of it falls outside the area where he prepared the soil.

The parable posits four different types of soil, and four outcomes.

Road: Seed Not Sprouted
Rocky Soil: Seed Sprouted, Plant Withered and Died.
Thorns: Seed Sprouted, Plant Choked Out and Died.
Good Soil: Seed Sprouted, Plant Survived and Produced Fruit.

In one case, the seed doesn't sprout, being eaten by the birds. In three other cases the seed sprouts, but only the seed that falls on the good soil produces a crop.


Jesus explains:

Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Jesus is making an analogy between a farmer's process to grow a crop, and his role to broadcast the Gospel message. Just as the farmer expects to get a crop, Jesus expects the word to produce perseverance in belief. By analogy then, just as the farmer must prepare the soil in advance to get his crop from the seeds he plants, God must prepare the heart of a person in advance in order for his word to produce perseverance of belief. Finally, just as the farmer broadcasts the word out beyond his field, Jesus broadcasts his word to the entire world.

Jesus explains that the seed is the word of God. By analogy we know that the soil is a person's heart; and the crop represents a perseverance in belief. The person with the honest and good heart will not fail to continue in belief.

The four types of soils and the four outcomes are thus.

Hard heart: No Belief.
Open heart: Belief, falls way when tested.
Double-minded: Belief, worries and pleasures choke out word, fall away.
Honest heart: Belief, Perseverance in Belief.

In this parable we learn that hearing the word is no guarantee of belief. And belief is no guarantee of salvation. But if God has prepared the heart in advance, making it a good and honest heart, the word will be believed and the faith will persevere.

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 09:28 PM
That's fine, people usually leave the discussion when they have to answer the questions directly.
Yes, we saw just how you answered "diirectly."

You just deny that those who are said to have "eternal life" actually have it.

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2009, 09:42 PM
Yes, we saw just how you answered "diirectly."

You just deny that those who are said to have "eternal life" actually have it.

I didn't deny it, I asked you, where is the life? the eternal life they were given, were is it? It is in Christ, John says it plainly. John says whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son does not have life. Yet another example from John that eternal life is given in the present tense to the one presently believing. However you have just ignored the\at part of my post. When you say a person cannot lose salvation you are contradicting what John said. Just because your English translation reads the way it does, does not change what John said.

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 09:50 PM
Hey Jerry,
Did you notice the problem?
Hi Stuart,

There is no problem. The term "son of" can merely refer to one being a descendent. Thus Jehoiada, being a priest, could have been Zechariah's grandfather. This makes sense because Abel was the first righteous martyr mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures and Zechariah was the last righteous martyr in the Hebrew Scriptures.

But if that is not good enough for you then we can just look at the Lord Jesus' words here where the pronoun "ye" is not in regard to those whom the Lord Jesus addressed:

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39).

None of those whom the Lord Jesus spoke those words said, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Therefore it is evident that even though the Lord might say "ye" to people that is not proof that those whom He addresses are in view. And that is exactly the case at Mark 9:43.

Now perhaps you will answer a question for me. The Apostle John tells the Christian the following:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

Do you believe that John is saying that the Christian has been given eternal life in the Son?

John uses the adjective "eternal" to describe that life. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So John is telling the Christian that they have been given a life in the Son which will never end.

Do you believe that it can end?

In His grace,
Jerry

Ascender
Mar 2nd 2009, 10:02 PM
Eternal Security in not in the Scripture any more than Trinity is in the Scripture. Thus it is a derived concept and must be handled with a very careful study.

The idea that eternal security trumps holiness/integrity is false and leads to lawlessness. The idea that we can be saved by anything less than faith alone is an enabler of works.

Neither side in this debate can ever hammer home their theological perspective using only Scriptures.

Veretax
Mar 2nd 2009, 10:07 PM
Eternal Security in not in the Scripture any more than Trinity is in the Scripture. Thus it is a derived concept and must be handled with a very careful study.

The idea that eternal security trumps holiness/integrity is false and leads to lawlessness. The idea that we can be saved by anything less than faith alone is an enabler of works.

Neither side in this debate can ever hammer home their theological perspective using only Scriptures.


Why must a belief that we are secure in our salvation lead to lawlessness?

Does not sin in the life of a believer still have consequences? If I kill someone after I've been saved, am I not guilty of murder? If I break the speed limit and get into an accident can I not suffer the consequences of losing my arm? Does that mean I was not a believer? Certainly not. I simply believe that God is the keeper not us. Why do we do Good works? We do them because God determined beforehand that we (who would believe), would walk in them (Eph: 2:10)

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 10:10 PM
Butch5,

I quoted the following verse that clearly shows that the original audience to whom John addressed his first epistle had already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

And then you said:

On the contrary, I showed you from Scripture how one does not have eternal life until the resurrection.
Now you deny that you ever said such a thing:

I didn't deny it, I asked you, where is the life? It is obvious to anyone that they already had been given eternal life. And you know that this is a huge problem for you. If they have already been given a life in the Son that will never cease then you must admit that the Christian does enjoy eternal security. So you must deny that anyone now possesses eternal life and no one will receive eternal life until the resurrection.

You also know that if you admit that they have already been given eternal life then you have no reasonable answer to what the Lord Jesus said about those who He has given eternal life, that "they shall n ever perish" (Jn.10:28).

You also have a problem with the words of the Lord Jesus here, since He says that those who believe "have" eternal life and will not come into judgment:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

If they already had eternal life, why did Jesus tell them that if they did not forgive others, their sins would not be forgiven? Remember Jesus is speaking to the disciples, Peter is mentioned by name. can a person enter into eternal life with unforgiven sin?
The words of the Lord Jesus at Matthew 6:14-15 are in regard to the same thing of which John speaks of in the following verses:

"...our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ...If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:3,6,9).

If the Jewish believers would not forgive others then they would be walking in darkness, their fellowship with the Lord would be interrupted and that sin would remain unforgiven. But as soon as they "judged themselves" by confessing that sin then that sin would be forgiven them. The words at 1 John 1:9 is to the believer and has nothing to do with being saved. And the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to saved men at Matthew 6:14-15 are not in regard to salvation either.

In His grace,
Jerry

Butch5
Mar 2nd 2009, 11:10 PM
JerryShugart---I quoted the following verse that clearly shows that the original audience to whom John addressed his first epistle had already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

And then you said:

Now you deny that you ever said such a thing:


It is obvious to anyone that they already had been given eternal life. And you know that this is a huge problem for you. If they have already been given a life in the Son that will never cease then you must admit that the Christian does enjoy eternal security. So you must deny that anyone now possesses eternal life and no one will receive eternal life until the resurrection.

You also know that if you admit that they have already been given eternal life then you have no reasonable answer to what the Lord Jesus said about those who He has given eternal life, that "they shall n ever perish" (Jn.10:28).

You also have a problem with the words of the Lord Jesus here, since He says that those who believe "have" eternal life and will not come into judgment:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).


So, you still won't address the issue, John says the one believing, present tense. Let me show you,

1 John 5:10-12 ( YLT ) 10He who is believing in the Son of God, hath the testimony in himself; he who is not believing God, a liar hath made Him, because he hath not believed in the testimony that God hath testified concerning His Son; 11and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this—the life—is in His Son; 12he who is having the Son, hath the life; he who is not having the Son of God—the life he hath not.

Present tense. John says he who "is believing" has the testimony in himself, the one who has eternal life is the one who "is having" the Son, the one who "is not having" the Son does not have life. John doesn't say one did believe or one who will believe, he said the one who "is" believing. If one isn't believing then they don't have life. I've shown you over and over that John uses the present tense for believe, they are the only ones who have eternal, they will never perish. Who will never perish? The one who "is" believing. If one decides they are no longer "is believing" they no longer have the promise. Why? Because the promise is to the one who "is believing". Let me ask you this, how do they have eternal when the life is in Christ?

So, I don't have a problem with the Scriptures you do, you have given me two verse out of context to try and support your position, two. I have given you multiple verses, others have posted a boat load, I have given you passages of Scripture where Jesus Himself, directly warns the apostles to make sure they do not end up in hell, I have given you Scripture where Paul himself said that he was in hope of eternal life. There is Scripture where Paul himself says that if he does not keep himself under control he could be cast away, I have given you Scripture where Jesus Himself told the apostles if they did not forgive others, their sins would not be forgiven. The evidence is overwhelming and yet you continue to cling to you understanding of two verses that are out of context.




JerryShugart---The words of the Lord Jesus at Matthew 6:14-15 are in regard to the same thing of which John speaks of in the following verses:

"...our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ...If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:3,6,9).

If the Jewish believers would not forgive others then they would be walking in darkness, their fellowship with the Lord would be interrupted and that sin would remain unforgiven. But as soon as they "judged themselves" by confessing that sin then that sin would be forgiven them. The words at 1 John 1:9 is to the believer and has nothing to do with being saved. And the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to saved men at Matthew 6:14-15 are not in regard to salvation either.

Sorry, Jesus doesn't say anything about fellowship, He says, if you do not forgiven men their sins, neither will your father forgive your sins. He not talking about fellowship, He's talking about forgiveness. But as you said you cannot accept this or your doctrine does not stand.

JerryShugart
Mar 2nd 2009, 11:50 PM
So, you still won't address the issue, John says the one believing, present tense. Let me show you,
I addressed the issue. It is you who continues to deny what is so plain in the Scriptures.

1 John 5:10-12 ( YLT ) 10He who is believing in the Son of God, hath the testimony in himself; he who is not believing God, a liar hath made Him, because he hath not believed in the testimony that God hath testified concerning His Son; 11and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this—the life—is in His Son; 12he who is having the Son, hath the life; he who is not having the Son of God—the life he hath not.

Present tense. John says he who "is believing" has the testimony in himself, the one who has eternal life is the one who "is having" the Son, the one who "is not having" The one who is believing has eternal life. And once the believer has the truth in him that truth will be with him forever, as witnessed by the words of the Apostle John:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1).

And once the sinner believes he is given eternal life, just as these Christians were:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

According to John these Christians have been given a life in the Son which is "eternal." The Greek word traslated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So in other words, John is saying that they have been given a life in the Son which will never end. But you say that it can end. Even though the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish" you say that they can.

You want to add a "condition" to the Lord Jesus' unconditional statement, making His statement null and void and replacing His statement with something He never said. Herre is what you believe the Lord Jesus should have said: "And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish IF they continue to believe."

If one isn't believing then they don't have life.As soon as the sinner believes he is given a life in the Son, and John describes that life as being without end. But again you think, for some reason, that you have the right to edit what John said. According to you he should have said, God has given unto us a life in the Son, and if we continue to believe then that life will never end. All you are doing is changing the meanings of what both John and the Lord Jesus said in order to make their statements to match your mistaken beliefs.

So, I don't have a problem with the Scriptures you do, you have given me two verse out of context to try and support your positionAll you have done is to change the meanings of the words of Jesus Christ and of John. The Lord Jesus says that those who "believe" (present tense) "have" eternal life and "will not come into judgment."

He doesn't say that those who believe have eternal life and they will not come into judgment IF they continue to believe. You MUST change the meaning of the plain words of Scripture in order to reconcile them with your errors.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

If receiving a life that will never end is "conditional" on continuing to believe then the Lord word say, "He who believes and continues to believe will have eternal life and will not come into condemnation." But that is not what He said.

Sorry, Jesus doesn't say anything about fellowship, He says, if you do not forgiven men their sins, neither will your father forgive your sins. He not talking about fellowship, He's talking about forgiveness. But as you said you cannot accept this or your doctrine does not stand.He says nothing that even hints that the "forgiveness of sins" is in regard to eternal salvation. You do realize that there is a forgiveness of sins that is not for salvation, don't you? Or do you think that the words at 1 John 1:9 are in regard to receiving salvation?

Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus again:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

Here the only thing that is required in order to receive eternal life and the promise not to come into judgment is "faith."

But again you must edit the words of the Lord Jersus in order to make His words fit with your mistaken ideas. According to you He should have said, "He who believes AND forgives others has eternal life..."

But that is not what He said. In regard to eternal salvation "faith" is all that is needed to be saved. The Lord Jesus said the following to the woman who annointed His feet with oil:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

Of course you can change the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words by adding nonexistent "conditions" of one kind or another, but that does not change the meaning of what He actually said.

In His grace,
Jerry

Forklifter
Mar 3rd 2009, 01:24 AM
Hi Forklifter,

They did not have to use the term "unconditional." The statements either have a "condition" attached or it doesn't. And the statements that I quoted did not have any "condition" attached.
Those verses are addressed to those who already believe and are already saved. If the Christian confesses his sins then he will be cleansed from those sins (1 Jn.1:9). This is in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord.
This says nothing about anyone loosing eternal life.
The words I quoted could not be plainer. It is you who wants to change the meaning of the words.
The Christians to whom John told that they had already been given eternal life had obviously met all the conditions for receiving eternal life or they would not have been given it.

The life that they had been given was in the Son, and John used the adjective "eternal" to describe that life in the Son. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So according to John the Christian has already been given a life in the Son which will never end. You say that it can.

The Lord Jesus says that those whom have been given eternal life shall never perish. You say that they can.
This is regard to the Christian's "walk" and not to His standing before God, risen with Christ and sitting together with Him in heavenly places (Eph.2:6) and "preserved in Christ Jesus" (Jude 1).
The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repentance" is "to have a change of mind". It does not always refer to "repentance toward God", and the only other time that the word is used in Hebrews it simply means "a change of mind" (Heb.12:17).

So in verse six the thought is that if they should fall away from some truth then it would not be possible to make them change their mind in regard to that truth. And it is not difficult to see what truth they were ignoring-"they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh."

Despite the teaching that they were no longer under the law they were keeping the law and offering sacrifices that were required under the law and therefore they were crucifying the Son of God afresh.

This verse is not in regard to "repentance torward God", or else we must believe that it is impossible for them to have a change of mind in regard to believing in God. The Lord would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth so therefore He would never say that it is impossible for anyone to have a change of mind toward Him. The door is always open, even for the worst of men.
I see no clarity in the way that you treat 1 John 5:11 or John 10:28. The Lord Jesus made it plain that those who believe have everlasting life and will not come into condemnation:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

The Lord says that those who believe will not come into condemnation but you say that they can!

You can address my points here and then quote any verse which you think proves that those who have received eternal life can perrish.

In His grace,
Jerry

Hello Jerry,

The scripture you quote 1Jn 5:11 is conditional. John has spent four chapters writing to faithful brethren, contrasting belief and unbelief. Nowhere does he say that a believer has unconditional security. On the contrary he constantly reminds the brethren by contrasting belief with unbelief. What purpose would this serve if they could not fall?

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

The word IF is a condition, like it or not. Again, you are putting word in Johns mouth.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Are you seriously saying that verse 28 is not dependent on verse 27? Jesus is more that clear here that those who cant be plucked out of His hand hear His voice and follow Him! This is conditional as well, like it or not.

You obsess over the word everlasting. We all are aware of its meaning. Everlasting life is still everlasting life, regardless if you or I decide to stop following Jesus. Just because someone turns on the Lord does not mean its not everlasting. Its still everlasting to all who continue in faith.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You are so off the mark in you explanation here. This verse is totally salvific. The use of the word condemnation is directly conditional of walking in the spirit.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You explanation here is faulty as it does not address what the sentence says. You again want to draw attention to one word, ignoring the clear meaning. Here, the person was once a believer, enlightened, tasted the word of God and then Fell Away!! Any attempt to change such clear teachings as this only ruins one integrity.

God will not be as easily satisfied by a Strongs or Thayers definition in exchange for His Truth!!

When we look at the whole of scriptures we can have a clear understanding of Gods teachings. Your OSAS/Calvanist teaching does not reconcile with many scriptures.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness

Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Simon the sorcerer came close!

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
Act 8:10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
Act 8:11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Act 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Act 8:24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Jerry, really, you are without excuse. The scriptures could not be clearer in that we can turn our back on the Lord after we have believed.

God bless,
JP

Forklifter
Mar 3rd 2009, 01:41 AM
I will address this verse for you, Forklifter.

Let us look at the following verse: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet.2:21).

These people were obviously saved because they knew "the way of righteousness", which is by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:2,4).

They knew the "way of righteousness" was by denying "worldy lusts" and "ungodliness":

"Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:12).

However, after being saved and knowing the "way of righteousness" they turned away from the "holy commandment". The Greek word translated "commandment" means "of the whole body of moral precepts of Christianity 2 Pet. ii. 21" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The words of Peter at 2 Peter 2:20-21 are speaking of some Christians who were born again and they are described as "those who are just escaping from those who live in error" (v.18) and as having escaped the pollutions of the world (v.20). However,some false teachers had "promised them liberty" (v.19) and allured them through the lusts of their flesh into believing a false teaching in regard to "morals".

This false teaching is probably the same thing that Paul refers to at Romans 3:8--that the Christians were falsely accused of teaching "Let us do evil that good may come." This was a false teaching that said that the more we sin then the more that grace will abound, and was based on a false interpretation of the words at Romans 6:1-"shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

So the people who had escaped moral pollution by the knowledge of the gospel as well as the moral teachings that urge the Christian to keep himself "holy" had been deceived into believing that they should continue to sin so that grace would abound even more. They returned to their old way of life (v.22). They are worse off now and it would have been better if they had never even heard the moral commandments at first because now they have no excuse for their behavior.

In His grace,
Jerry
Hello Jerry,

I see your having difficulty with clear scripture again.

Here the person comes to Christ. Escaping the pollutions of the world.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Here they are entangled again, in the pollutions of the world, and Overcome by those pollutions!

they are again entangled therein, and overcome,

Here we see that their end (judgement, condemnation) is now worse.

the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

The rest is just as clear.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Peter is clear in that the person is overcome and now there end is worse.

God bless,
Art

stuart shepherd
Mar 3rd 2009, 01:45 AM
Hi Stuart,

There is no problem. The term "son of" can merely refer to one being a descendent. Thus Jehoiada, being a priest, could have been Zechariah's grandfather. This makes sense because Abel was the first righteous martyr mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures and Zechariah was the last righteous martyr in the Hebrew Scriptures.

But if that is not good enough for you then we can just look at the Lord Jesus' words here where the pronoun "ye" is not in regard to those whom the Lord Jesus addressed:

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39).

None of those whom the Lord Jesus spoke those words said, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Therefore it is evident that even though the Lord might say "ye" to people that is not proof that those whom He addresses are in view. And that is exactly the case at Mark 9:43.

Now perhaps you will answer a question for me. The Apostle John tells the Christian the following:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

Do you believe that John is saying that the Christian has been given eternal life in the Son?

John uses the adjective "eternal" to describe that life. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So John is telling the Christian that they have been given a life in the Son which will never end.

Do you believe that it can end?

In His grace,
Jerry

The Bible says concerning Jerusalem......

Isaiah 60:14-16 (King James Version)
14The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.


There is that word ""eternal "" in verse 15.
Tell me, is what is written true of Jerusalem?
From the year 70CE until 1947, Jerusalem was just a sleepy podunk little town of no account.

Stuart Shepherd

PS Look at post #13 in this thread.

fuzzi
Mar 3rd 2009, 02:09 AM
The Bible says concerning Jerusalem......

Isaiah 60:14-16 (King James Version)
14The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.


There is that word ""eternal "" in verse 15.
Tell me, is what is written true of Jerusalem?
From the year 70CE until 1947, Jerusalem was just a sleepy podunk little town of no account.
If I might add a thought:

This passage is prophesy, it's going to happen in the future, it's not happened yet. God says "I will make thee..." not "I made thee".

BTW, why do you use the term 'CE' in stead of AD? :confused

Joyfulee
Mar 3rd 2009, 02:21 AM
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
1 John 2:19

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thes. 2:3

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
John 17:12

Was Judas Iscariot saved?

I think not. He "went out," to make it manifest that he was not one who truly belonged to Christ.

Blessings :)

stuart shepherd
Mar 3rd 2009, 02:50 AM
If I might add a thought:

This passage is prophesy, it's going to happen in the future, it's not happened yet. God says "I will make thee..." not "I made thee".

BTW, why do you use the term 'CE' in stead of AD? :confused

CE= Common Era same as AD

Stuart Shepherd

reformedct
Mar 3rd 2009, 03:03 AM
this argument can go on forever and forever, but at the end of the day, whatever you believe, the fact remains:

those who will be glorified must perservere in faith.

i think thats part of why we shouldnt sin. if we continually sin we will doubt the power of God and then doubt Jesus and eventually end up in unbelief or belief of false doctrine or believe we are too sinful to be forgiven like Judas etc

after everyone argues for page after page each one of us must perservere to the end

MacGyver
Mar 3rd 2009, 03:11 AM
this argument can go on forever and forever, but at the end of the day, whatever you believe, the fact remains:

those who will be glorified must perservere in faith.

i think thats part of why we shouldnt sin. if we continually sin we will doubt the power of God and then doubt Jesus and eventually end up in unbelief or belief of false doctrine or believe we are too sinful to be forgiven like Judas etc

after everyone argues for page after page each one of us must perservere to the endVery well said!

JerryShugart
Mar 3rd 2009, 03:42 AM
Hello Jerry,

The scripture you quote 1Jn 5:11 is conditional. John has spent four chapters writing to faithful brethren, contrasting belief and unbelief. Nowhere does he say that a believer has unconditional security. On the contrary he constantly reminds the brethren by contrasting belief with unbelief. What purpose would this serve if they could not fall?

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Hi Forklifter,

You make an "assumption" that the "condition" spoken of here is in regard to eternal salvation. And that is all it is, merely an assumption. To "continue in the Son and in the Father here is speaking of "fellowship" with the Son and the Father. We know that because in the very next verse the Aposle John refers to the promise which the Lord had promised these Christians:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).

The Lord Jesus promised eternal life to all who believe (Jn.5:24). And John assures them that that promise has been fulfilled:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

John tells the Christian that he has already been given a life in Christ and he uses the adjective "eternal" to describe that life. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cese, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So in effect John tells the Christian that he has been given a life in the Son that will never cease. But you deny John's words and say that it can cease. Here is your explanation:

[quote]You obsess over the word everlasting. We all are aware of its meaning. Everlasting life is still everlasting life, regardless if you or I decide to stop following Jesus. Just because someone turns on the Lord does not mean its not everlasting. Its still everlasting to all who continue in faith.What you say there certainly does not address John's words at all. John tells them that they have a life in the Son, and that life is everlasting. If that life that the Christian has in the Son could possibly come to an end then John would certainly not have used the word "everlasting" to describe that life. But he did. John certainly believed that the life which the Christian has in the Son is everlasting or he would not ever have described it as being everlasting. But there are those like you who say that that life might be everlasting but it might not be.

Not only that, the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He has given eternal life "shall never perish." But you say that they can!

The word IF is a condition, like it or not. Again, you are putting word in Johns mouth.No, you are assuming that the words of John at 1 John 2:24 are in regard to salvation despite the fact that there is no evidence to back up your assertion.

If you are right that it is speaking of salvation then according to you the believer must do "works" in order to receive eternal life. But that idea is directly contradicted by the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Are you seriously saying that verse 28 is not dependent on verse 27? Jesus is more that clear here that those who cant be plucked out of His hand hear His voice and follow Him! This is conditional as well, like it or not.It is not conditional. Instead, the Lord Jesus is describing those whom He calls His sheep. As anyone knows, the shepherd's sheep do follow the sheperd. But sometimes a sheep gets lost and a good sheperd finds the lost sheep and returns him to the fold. And because the Lord Jesus is likened to the Christian's shepherd then we know as a Good Shepard none of his sheep will ever be permantly lost. And that is exactly why the Lord Jesus says the following in the very next verse:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

The following words from the lips of the Lord and Savior describe a good shepherd:

"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray" (Mt.18:11-13).

From what I gather about your ideas concerning the Lord Jesus as our Good Shepherd if one of His sheep gets lost He will just let him remain lost. The words of the Lord Jesus at John 10 are set in a context that is to be understood as the Lord Jesus being "the Great Shepherd of the sheep" (Heb.13:20). But you would quote verses out of the context and use them in such a way that would bring contempt on the Lord Jesus abilites as our Good Shepherd.

Now I answered a couple of your points and I will answer more but first address the things that I said in regard to your comments on the sheep and the Shepherd and your comments on John's description of the life the Christian has been given in the Son.

And also you can addess another verse which confirms my interpreation of the meaning of John 10:28 and 1 John 5:11:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

Here the Lord Jesus says that those who "believe" HAVE eternal life and will not come into judgment. This clearly says that "faith" is sufficent to receive eternal life and that those who believe will not come into judgment.

If the believer does not come into judgment then how will he ever be condemned and given the sentence of loss of salvation?

Also, Forklifter, you do not have to shout. I am not hard of hearing. You can use just one font size and I will be able to understand.

In His grace,
Jerry

JerryShugart
Mar 3rd 2009, 03:53 AM
Hello Jerry,

I see your having difficulty with clear scripture again.
Hi Art,

It is one thing to say that I am having difficulty with clear Scripture but is a different thing to prove it. I will addrss this again and you tell me exactly where what I say is in error. Please quote me where you see an error:

Let us look at the following verse: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet.2:21).

These people were obviously saved because they knew "the way of righteousness", which is by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:2,4).

They knew the "way of righteousness" was by denying "worldy lusts" and "ungodliness":

"Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:12).

However, after being saved and knowing the "way of righteousness" they turned away from the "holy commandment". The Greek word translated "commandment" means "of the whole body of moral precepts of Christianity 2 Pet. ii. 21" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The words of Peter at 2 Peter 2:20-21 are speaking of some Christians who were born again and they are described as "those who are just escaping from those who live in error" (v.18) and as having escaped the pollutions of the world (v.20). However,some false teachers had "promised them liberty" (v.19) and allured them through the lusts of their flesh into believing a false teaching in regard to "morals".

This false teaching is probably the same thing that Paul refers to at Romans 3:8--that the Christians were falsely accused of teaching "Let us do evil that good may come." This was a false teaching that said that the more we sin then the more that grace will abound, and was based on a false interpretation of the words at Romans 6:1-"shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

So the people who had escaped moral pollution by the knowledge of the gospel as well as the moral teachings that urge the Christian to keep himself "holy" had been deceived into believing that they should continue to sin so that grace would abound even more. They returned to their old way of life (v.22). They are worse off now and it would have been better if they had never even heard the moral commandments at first because now they have no excuse for their behavior.

In His grace,
Jerry

Veretax
Mar 3rd 2009, 03:56 AM
this argument can go on forever and forever, but at the end of the day, whatever you believe, the fact remains:

those who will be glorified must perservere in faith.

i think thats part of why we shouldnt sin. if we continually sin we will doubt the power of God and then doubt Jesus and eventually end up in unbelief or belief of false doctrine or believe we are too sinful to be forgiven like Judas etc

after everyone argues for page after page each one of us must perservere to the end

I find this curious. If as I suspect you believe, that God chose who would be saved, God determined beforehand, and that not only that there was nothing we could do to merit salvation, hence why you say God does it, then why must man persevere if Salvation is thus of the Lord?

Here's another problem with what you just said. For me, I was raised in a reformed presbyterian church, and I knew what was taught, new it well enough I could recite verses and everything, yet I didn't have faith, why? BEcause I was incapable of believing that Jesus would forgive all my sin, there was one sin in particular that I thought he could never forgive, until I was lead to scripture that proved Jesus could forgive all my sins I was incapable of belief. So for me at least, there is no way I would ever go back to that prior state of thinking, why would I want to? I also find it hard to fathom why anyone who would at one time believe Christ Forgave their sins, I mean truly believed, could ever go back to that prior state. The thought of someone doing that baffles me to be honest.

JerryShugart
Mar 3rd 2009, 04:18 AM
this argument can go on forever and forever, but at the end of the day, whatever you believe, the fact remains:

those who will be glorified must perservere in faith.

i think thats part of why we shouldnt sin. if we continually sin we will doubt the power of God and then doubt Jesus and eventually end up in unbelief or belief of false doctrine or believe we are too sinful to be forgiven like Judas etc

after everyone argues for page after page each one of us must perservere to the end
I often wonder about the quality of the "faith" of those who insist someone could stop believing. The Apostle John certainly believed that those who have believed the truth would certainly always believe:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).

Let us examine some of the basic facts in regard to a true, saving faith.
There are some Christians who argue that since "believing" the gospel is an act of man's free "will" then by that same "will" they can cease to believe.

However, believing something is not based on one's will. In the natural sphere a man knows that five plus five is ten. He cannot "will" himself to believe that five plus five equals nine or anything other than ten. A man cannot "will" himself to believe something that the evidence tells him is not true. It is impossible, and that is because a person's beliefs are based on "evidence" and not based on his "will":

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Heb.11.1)).

Being "borm again" or "born of God" is accomplished when the sinner believes the gospel (1 Pet.1:23-25 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/1%20Pet.1.23-25)). And the Apostle John reveals that being born of God is not accomplished through the "will of man":

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:12-13 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Jn.1.12-13)).

The Lord Himself has supernaturally given the true believer an "understanding" of the gospel and the believer "knows" Him Who is true:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn. 5:11 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/1%20Jn.%205.11)).

Again, this knowledge is based on "evidence":

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Heb.11.1)).

Indeed, this "evidence of things not seen" comes to us is the gospel, and the gospel comes unto us in power, in the Holy Spirit, and with much assurance:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess.1:5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/1%20Thess.1.5)).

So those who have believed the gospel have a supernatural knowledge of the truths of the gospel, a knowledge that even supercedes any knowledge that a person might have in the natural sphere. This supernatural evidence is so strong that Paul can speak of Christ's crucifixion clearly portrayed before us:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?" (Gal.3:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Gal.3.1)).

There is no evidence in either the "natural" sphere or the "supernatural" sphere that can possibly over rule the evidence that the true believer already has believed.

Therefore it is impossible that the true believer can ever stop believing the gospel. Those who insist that a true believer can stop believing must rest his argument on this bit of fantasy:

The believer KNOWS that because of his sins he deserves the everlasting wrath of God. He also knows that the Lord Jesus paid the penalty for his sins upon the Cross and because he believes these truths he has been spared that penalty. But at some point in time he is able to trick his mind into believing that all of this supernatural evidence is false, despite the fact that there exisits no evidence in the entire universe that proves that all this supernatural evidence is not true.

That idea is nothing but fantasy. The sinner who has received the supernatural evidence concerning his salvation will always believe it. And why would he ever cease to believe that good news?

In His grace,
Jerry

cdo
Mar 3rd 2009, 06:17 AM
Salvation? Eternal Salvation?
God promises Salvation to everyone......But, only those who accept ! Some will
some will not.It's His free gift because He loves everyone and hopes all will come to repentance.He gave His son'Jesus' for our sins.We all sin and fall short.We also can repent of the sins when we fall.Our God would not send His Son to the cross in vain and to shed His blood for our sins knowing we are going to fall short.He made the way for forgiveness and to glorify His Son as Jesus glorifies
our Father.Each and all have their own relationship with God who have accepted His gift of Love.Since each of us have different relationships with Him,seems in my opinion we will be judged accordingly.
Considering also as in the last days there will come a falling away and those that are deceived and take the mark of the beast.This would still leave an opening for discussion on osas or not.God is the revealer of His word in truth and prayer.
~~Darlene~~

Ascender
Mar 3rd 2009, 01:27 PM
Too many times we get into the yelling match and fail to take Scripture as a whole. Calvin was a decent theologian but still imperfect. Wesley was not so much a theologian as a reformer but his points against Calvin's theological debate points were valid.

Both sides in this debate have their text proofs and passage points and yet I firmly believe BOTH are wrong. We are being saved by grace through faith. At the same time we have to cultivate/nurture our own salvation with fear and trembling.

The nature of salvation is what we are talking about moreso that losing/unloseable salvation. That is the deeper question no one asks after. Too often these debates are yelling matches and not productive. When will we look at the Scripture itself -- not our take on it.

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 01:41 PM
Ascender--- Calvin was a decent theologian but still imperfect.


??????????????????????

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 01:49 PM
this argument can go on forever and forever, but at the end of the day, whatever you believe, the fact remains:

those who will be glorified must perservere in faith.

i think thats part of why we shouldnt sin. if we continually sin we will doubt the power of God and then doubt Jesus and eventually end up in unbelief or belief of false doctrine or believe we are too sinful to be forgiven like Judas etc

after everyone argues for page after page each one of us must perservere to the end

It amazes me that there is even an argument about it. The funny thing is, it's only been an agrument since Luther and Calvin. This was not taught in the Church prior to them.

Vhayes
Mar 3rd 2009, 02:10 PM
Too many times we get into the yelling match and fail to take Scripture as a whole. Calvin was a decent theologian but still imperfect. Wesley was not so much a theologian as a reformer but his points against Calvin's theological debate points were valid.

Both sides in this debate have their text proofs and passage points and yet I firmly believe BOTH are wrong. We are being saved by grace through faith. At the same time we have to cultivate/nurture our own salvation with fear and trembling.

The nature of salvation is what we are talking about moreso that losing/unloseable salvation. That is the deeper question no one asks after. Too often these debates are yelling matches and not productive. When will we look at the Scripture itself -- not our take on it.

I do believe in eternal security but I do NOT believe in predestination in the way it is usually taught. Having said that, I also think without the proper spiritual growth, the proper discipleship when one is a new Christian, that very security can develop into licentiousness. I've seen it happen. My husband and I actually attended a church ( a huge church) at one point where almost everyone would go to bible study and as soon as the study was concluded, they would head out to a bar and get completely wiped out, week after week. They displayed no patience and absolutely no self-restraint.

I've also seen people who were taught they can loose their salvation become so crippled with fear they will do something to loose their salvation they walk on egg shells all day every day and live a life filled with trepidation. They display no joy at all. There is certainly no peace.

It's all about the relationship one has with Christ - if you are growing in Him and learning more about Him, then whether one believes you can or cannot lose your salvation becomes secondary (or thirdary or fourthary) to the point it becomes moot.
V

Vhayes
Mar 3rd 2009, 02:11 PM
It amazes me that there is even an argument about it. The funny thing is, it's only been an agrument since Luther and Calvin. This was not taught in the Church prior to them.
There were a lot of things not taught in the church prior to Calvin and Luther - such as scripture.

Ascender
Mar 3rd 2009, 02:44 PM
??????????????????????

Calvin was a good theologian, there is no denying that, in fact his Systematic approach really formed the basis for all the Systematic Theologies that followed over the years.

Just because I might fault his conclusions does not mean I "fail" him as a theologian.

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 03:04 PM
JerryShugart---I addressed the issue. It is you who continues to deny what is so plain in the Scriptures.

Come on Jerry, I have given you numerous passages that say eternal life is the reward, you have given my one verse that says Christians have been given eternal life, given the other Scriptures it is clear that the verse you are using is being taken out of context.



JerryShugart---The one who is believing has eternal life. And once the believer has the truth in him that truth will be with him forever, as witnessed by the words of the Apostle John:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1).

Again, this is only a promise to the one who "is" believing. John simply assumes they will keep believing. the problem is you are taking statements made and applying them where they were not intended, the guarantee is only for those who keep believing. John is not teaching hear, He is writing to a woman.

Where is the guarantee that the one who "is" believing will not stop believing? Just one verse.

Jerry, you need to provide another verse to support your claim as the above does not, John says, the truth will dwell in them forever, however in this statement John does not include all people, John says He will dwell in the himself, the elect lady, all they that have "known" the truth. past tense. The most we can infer here is those who had known the truth at the time John wrote this letter.


JerryShugart---And once the sinner believes he is given eternal life, just as these Christians were:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).


Where does Scripture say once on believes they are given eternal life?

If they already had eternal life, why did they die?


JerryShugart---According to John these Christians have been given a life in the Son which is "eternal." The Greek word traslated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So in other words, John is saying that they have been given a life in the Son which will never end. But you say that it can end. Even though the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish" you say that they can.

You want to add a "condition" to the Lord Jesus' unconditional statement, making His statement null and void and replacing His statement with something He never said. Herre is what you believe the Lord Jesus should have said: "And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish IF they continue to believe."

Jerry, do you understand what John wrote? John is the one who wrote Jesus' statement, he wrote it thus, the one who is believing. You can deny it if you want, but that is what the Greek text says, the statement is "not" unconditional. Jesus limited it to the one who "is" believing. If we use your understanding we could believe, then go out and live however we wanted because we would have eternal life. If that were the case, what was the point in God banning Adam from the garden of Eden?


JerryShugart---As soon as the sinner believes he is given a life in the Son, and John describes that life as being without end. But again you think, for some reason, that you have the right to edit what John said. According to you he should have said, God has given unto us a life in the Son, and if we continue to believe then that life will never end. All you are doing is changing the meanings of what both John and the Lord Jesus said in order to make their statements to match your mistaken beliefs.

I'm sorry my friend, but that is exactly what you have done. I've not changed a thing. If you do a study of these verses and find out what the Greek text actually says you will see that it does indeed say the one who "is" believing.


JerryShugart---All you have done is to change the meanings of the words of Jesus Christ and of John. The Lord Jesus says that those who "believe" (present tense) "have" eternal life and "will not come into judgment."

He doesn't say that those who believe have eternal life and they will not come into judgment IF they continue to believe. You MUST change the meaning of the plain words of Scripture in order to reconcile them with your errors.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

If receiving a life that will never end is "conditional" on continuing to believe then the Lord word say, "He who believes and continues to believe will have eternal life and will not come into condemnation." But that is not what He said.

That is exactly what He said, look at the verse right here in your quote, He who "believes", believes is present tense, Jesus didn't say, he who believed, or he who at one time believed, He said he who believes, that is present tense. These are the only one's to whom the promise is made.


JerryShugart---He says nothing that even hints that the "forgiveness of sins" is in regard to eternal salvation. You do realize that there is a forgiveness of sins that is not for salvation, don't you? Or do you think that the words at 1 John 1:9 are in regard to receiving salvation?

Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus again:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

Here the only thing that is required in order to receive eternal life and the promise not to come into judgment is "faith."

But again you must edit the words of the Lord Jesus in order to make His words fit with your mistaken ideas. According to you He should have said, "He who believes AND forgives others has eternal life..."

But that is not what He said. In regard to eternal salvation "faith" is all that is needed to be saved. The Lord Jesus said the following to the woman who annointed His feet with oil:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

Of course you can change the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words by adding nonexistent "conditions" of one kind or another, but that does not change the meaning of what He actually said.

Jerry, you have to keep the Scriptures in context, you are jumping all over the place. By faith it appears you mean to simply believe, there is more needed for eternal life than that. However, you said,


JerryShugart---Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus again:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

Here the only thing that is required in order to receive eternal life and the promise not to come into judgment is "faith."


What does the verse say? He who hears my words, Jerry, are these Jesus words?

Matthew 6:14-15 ( KJV ) 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

JerryShugart
Mar 3rd 2009, 04:09 PM
Come on Jerry, I have given you numerous passages that say eternal life is the reward, you have given my one verse that says Christians have been given eternal life, given the other Scriptures it is clear that the verse you are using is being taken out of context.
Butch,

The Apostle John tells the Christian the following about eternal life:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).

John tells the Christan that the promise which the Lord promised them is eternal life. Here the Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe. And since Christians are believers then they receive the reward of eternal life. That means that the Lord promises then a life that will never end. If by some reason that life could possibly end then the Lord made a promise which He broke. But we both know that He will not break any promise which He makes.

Again, this is only a promise to the one who "is" believing. John simply assumes they will keep believing. the problem is you are taking statements made and applying them where they were not intended, the guarantee is only for those who keep believing.
John's words are not based on an assumption. There is nothing in anything he says that even hints that he is basing what he said on an assumption:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1).

According to him all those that have known the truth shall have that truth with them forever. Period. End of story! Since that does not match your ideas you say that we cannot believe John's words there because what he says is only based on an assumption.

Where is the guarantee that the one who "is" believing will not stop believing? Just one verse.
I have given you the words of John where he says that all those who have known the truth will have that truth with therm forever. But you will not believe what he says because you claim that it cannot be believed because it is based on an assumption. But then you say:

John does not include all people, John says He will dwell in the himself, the elect lady, all they that have "known" the truth. past tense. The most we can infer here is those who had known the truth at the time John wrote this letter.
So only those who believed at the time John wrote his secomd epistle can be said to continue in faith. So according to your own words these Christians will continue to believe:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

To this verse you say:

Where does Scripture say once on believes they are given eternal life?

If they already had eternal life, why did they die?
You obviously have a very short memory. Here the Lord Jesus says that those who "believe" have eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The soul does not cease to exist when the body dies physically. The Christian who dies physically goes to be with the Lord (Phil.1:23). He is still alive even though he is separated from his physical body.

You deny the Lord Jesus' words here where He makes it plain that "faith" by itself is sufficient to receive eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

Here the Lord gives us an understanding as to exactly how the sinner passes from death unto life:

"It is the spirit thatgiveth life ; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

The sinner passes from death to life and is saved when they believe the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. But you deny that one cannot be saved just by faith alone:

What does the verse say? He who hears my words, Jerry, are these Jesus words?

Matthew 6:14-15 ( KJV ) 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
The Lord Jesus' words at Matthew 6:14-15 are in regard to the "obedience of faith" and not faith itself. Even though the Lord makes it plain that faith by itself is sufficient for salvation you deny His words. You say that a Christian must have faith and also do works in order to be saved. You obviously do not understyand the principle of "grace,' the principle by which the sinner is saved:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).

If one has to do "works" of one kind or another then the reward cannot be said to be by "grace." It is those who "believe" and "worketh not" whose faith is counted for righteousness.

In His grace,
Jerry

Ascender
Mar 3rd 2009, 04:23 PM
Eph 2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=6##)
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


then we read --->

Jam 2:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 2:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jam 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jam 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jam&c=2&t=KJV&x=2&y=7##)
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Do these conflict or are they complimentary? That is the question.

Watchmen
Mar 3rd 2009, 05:33 PM
Scriptures that disprove Eternal Security.

The good Olive Tree. (Romans 11:22)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.
Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.



''IF'' we continue in the faith. Colossians 1:21-23
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.



Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those that were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This passage of scripture is scary but it does need to be addressed. It is obvious that the people referred to in these verses were at one time saved and that they were able to fall away. It also says that there are places you can go in God that after you been to these heights if you were to fall away you cannot return. How far or deep you need to be in God to reach this point, I do not know. However what is clear is that the OSAS doctrine does not mesh with this passage of scripture.
A better question for those of you that adhere to the OSAS doctrine, rather than what is the point of no return, is can you turn from God after salvation? Better yet, are you now living in a backslidden condition without even realizing it? Do you care more about you own life, cares, wants, lusts than about serving God? Have you placed yourself above God? If so you have fallen away and are in desperate need of repentance.



Returning to your own vomit 2nd Peter 2:20-22
2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
Let's look at these verses one at a time.
Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?
Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.
I will touch more on this in a future chapter about Christians that return to or continue in sin when I get to Hebrews 10:26-31 but right now let's look at what Jesus said in Luke 12:47-48
Luke 12:47-48
47 And the servant, which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did thing worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Those that have been saved and truly know God's will, if they fall away they will suffer worse than those that never knew God or His will at all.
Verse 22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
When we as Christians turn back to sin it is like a dog returning to his own vomit. Also those of us that have had our sins washed away by the blood of Christ. If we turn from Him and back to the world, then it is like a pig that had been washed returning to the mud pit.


There is no question that all of these passages individually and definitely in combination prove that the Eternal Security/OSAS doctrine is unbiblical at best and a lie of Satan at worst.Is there no one that believes in eternal security that can explain why these verses say you can turn away?

MacGyver
Mar 3rd 2009, 05:40 PM
It amazes me that there is even an argument about it. The funny thing is, it's only been an agrument since Luther and Calvin. This was not taught in the Church prior to them.No kidding. It is not even hinted by the Early Church Fathers or even the early heretics. Some of our modern day sects have taken heresy a few steps further.

Veretax
Mar 3rd 2009, 06:16 PM
Is there no one that believes in eternal security that can explain why these verses say you can turn away?

The only verse that hints at this, is the one in Hebrews, but it says to such who did it, it would be impossible to renew them to repentance....I'm more inclined to believe that people thought they had faith, but deceived themselves.

Watchmen
Mar 3rd 2009, 06:25 PM
Is there no one that believes in eternal security that can explain why these verses say you can turn away?


The only verse that hints at this, is the one in Hebrews, but it says to such who did it, it would be impossible to renew them to repentance....I'm more inclined to believe that people thought they had faith, but deceived themselves.
Romans 11:Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.



''IF'' we continue in the faith. Colossians 1:21-23
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.


If you do not believe these 2 passage even hints at loosing your salvation then you are too far from reality to converse with.

Veretax
Mar 3rd 2009, 06:33 PM
Romans 11:Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.



''IF'' we continue in the faith. Colossians 1:21-23
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.


If you do not believe these 2 passage even hints at loosing your salvation then you are too far from reality to converse with.

The problem with Romans 11, is Paul is talking about what happened presently to Israel. I don't think it was meant as an analog to the church.


I'd need to go examine the context of that Colosians verse in more detail. I don't have it fresh in my mind.

tgallison
Mar 3rd 2009, 06:34 PM
Scriptures that disprove Eternal Security.

The good Olive Tree. (Romans 11:22)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
H

Watchman greetings

Your premise that being grafted in relates to salvation is incorrect.

Grafted in relates to all Gentiles saved and unsaved. Just as the natural branch related to all Jews saved and unsaved. God turned from Israel to the Gentiles, and Gentiles as a group will be cast off again if they do not keep their hearts toward God. Doesn't have anything to do with the individual and his salvation. God deals with nations and he deals with individuals. Job 34:29 "When he gives quietness, who then can make trouble? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only."

Job is a picture of a man trying to follow God, and God had blessed him. But Job was not saved. If he had not endured during his trial he would have lost his life and his soul.(Job 33:22) Job had not been born of the Spirit. He had not been born again.(Job 33:25) At least not until after his trial, when he repented. Repentance comes before salvation. When salvation comes, you have a personal relationship with God. You meet him and the Spirit seals you.

Job went from being a servant to a son, that is what salvation is all about.

The Apostles did not have salvation, they were following God, when they were following Christ, but they did not know him till later. If they had truly known him they would not have run and hid, when he was taken. They never expected him to be resurrected. They did not understand that He was their sacrificial lamb.

When you are born of the Spirit you have salvation. If you could lose it by your works, then you could also retain it with your works. Salvation is not of works, but the gift of God, that no man might boast.

In Jesus Christ, Terrell

Watchmen
Mar 3rd 2009, 07:21 PM
Watchman greetings

Your premise that being grafted in relates to salvation is incorrect.Mt premise is that we can be cut off, further more in Colossians it says plain as day that we will only be presented to God blameless IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel. You cannot reconcile this to the OSAS or eternal security doctrine.

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 07:47 PM
JerryShugart---The Apostle John tells the Christian the following about eternal life:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).

John tells the Christan that the promise which the Lord promised them is eternal life. Here the Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe:


Jerry, read that verse again, it is a promise, John says it is a promise. Why would God promise something they already have???


JerryShugart---"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe. And since Christians are believers then they receive the reward of eternal life. That means that the Lord promises then a life that will never end. If by some reason that life could possibly end then the Lord made a promise which He broke. But we both know that He will not break any promise which He makes.



If Christians already had eternal life that would be true, however it is as John says, we have the "promise" of eternal life.



JerryShugart---John's words are not based on an assumption. There is nothing in anything he says that even hints that he is basing what he said on an assumption:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1).

According to him all those that have known the truth shall have that truth with them forever. Period. End of story! Since that does not match your ideas you say that we cannot believe John's words there because what he says is only based on an assumption.

Yes John said have known, so the time frame is when John wrote the epistle, have known is past tense, which means all those who have known the truth as of John's writing. You'll have to try another verse.



JerryShugart---I have given you the words of John where he says that all those who have known the truth will have that truth with therm forever. But you will not believe what he says because you claim that it cannot be believed because it is based on an assumption.

NO, you have given me a verse where John says, himself, the elect lady and all those who had known the truth, would have it with them forever.



JerryShugart---So only those who believed at the time John wrote his secomd epistle can be said to continue in faith. So according to your own words these Christians will continue to believe:

When John wrote his epistle, he was not writing about people who would live in the future, he was writing about those in the present and mentions those of he past. I did not say only those who believed at the time John wrote can be said to continue. It seems you just read what you want it to say, as you do with Scripture.


JerryShugart---"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

You obviously have a very short memory. Here the Lord Jesus says that those who "believe" have eternal life:
Jerry, you said "when" one believes they get eternal life. Please show me where Scripture teaches that eternal life is given at the point one believes.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The soul does not cease to exist when the body dies physically. The Christian who dies physically goes to be with the Lord (Phil.1:23). He is still alive even though he is separated from his physical body.

You deny the Lord Jesus' words here where He makes it plain that "faith" by itself is sufficient to receive eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

I deny? Jerry, look at the verse you quoted, who has eternal life??? He who hears my words "AND" believes. Do you see that, not only believes, but, "hears my words and believes"



JerryShugart---Here the Lord gives us an understanding as to exactly how the sinner passes from death unto life:

"It is the spirit thatgiveth life ; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

The sinner passes from death to life and is saved when they believe the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. But you deny that one cannot be saved just by faith alone:

So does the apostle James, when he says a man is not justified by faith only.




JerryShugart---The Lord Jesus' words at Matthew 6:14-15 are in regard to the "obedience of faith" and not faith itself. Even though the Lord makes it plain that faith by itself is sufficient for salvation you deny His words. You say that a Christian must have faith and also do works in order to be saved. You obviously do not understyand the principle of "grace,' the principle by which the sinner is saved:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).

If one has to do "works" of one kind or another then the reward cannot be said to be by "grace." It is those who "believe" and "worketh not" whose faith is counted for righteousness.

Jerry, look at the passage, Jesus is not talking about obedience, he is talking about forgiveness, He tells them if they do not forgive others, they will not be forgiven.
You do understand the difference between works of the law and works of righteousness right?. Since you quoted Romans 4, go back and read Romans 3. Paul is talking about the Law, not righteousness. Regarding works of righteousness, Notice what Paul says,

Romans 2:4-9 ( KJV ) 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


These are works of righteousness that Christians are required to do. But I'm sure they will be in regards to something other than eternal life right?

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 07:52 PM
Calvin was a good theologian, there is no denying that, in fact his Systematic approach really formed the basis for all the Systematic Theologies that followed over the years.

Just because I might fault his conclusions does not mean I "fail" him as a theologian.

How good of a theologian can he be, if he comes to the wrong conclusions?

tgallison
Mar 3rd 2009, 07:53 PM
Mt premise is that we can be cut off, further more in Colossians it says plain as day that we will only be presented to God blamelessIF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel. You cannot reconcile this to the OSAS or eternal security doctrine.


1Cr 5:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=5&v=5&t=KJV#comm/5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I am sure this verse has already been presented. Watchmen, Christ gives you peace to know that you are secure in Him. I know that he has done this for me. There would be no peace if every day you wondered if you had crossed the line. Just how much would it take to cross the line?

Grace and peace, Terrell

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 07:53 PM
There were a lot of things not taught in the church prior to Calvin and Luther - such as scripture.

Oh, so for the first 1400 years the church was wrong and then Calvin cameto the rescue? I think not.

Vhayes
Mar 3rd 2009, 08:20 PM
Oh, so for the first 1400 years the church was wrong and then Calvin cameto the rescue? I think not.
Do you think the Roman Catholic church of the 1300's or 1400's had it right?

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 09:12 PM
Do you think the Roman Catholic church of the 1300's or 1400's had it right?

No, however I think the church of the first century had most of it right

Vhayes
Mar 3rd 2009, 09:16 PM
Ok - and do you know of a modern day church that reflects that? I know a few who say they do but have little or nothing to bck that up.

MacGyver
Mar 3rd 2009, 09:24 PM
Ok - and do you know of a modern day church that reflects that? I know a few who say they do but have little or nothing to bck that up.
You won't find one that operates exactly like the 1st century Church because they did not have the Bible as we know it, they operated on Apostolic Tradition. It was a Sacramental Church that believed in the real presence in the Lord's Supper, and they relied on Apostolic Succession and Church Authority in order to determine correct Doctrine. That really makes slim pickings finding a denomination like that.

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 09:36 PM
Ok - and do you know of a modern day church that reflects that? I know a few who say they do but have little or nothing to bck that up.

I know of at least one that tries.

Watchmen
Mar 3rd 2009, 09:42 PM
Mt premise is that we can be cut off, further more in Colossians it says plain as day that we will only be presented to God blamelessIF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel. You cannot reconcile this to the OSAS or eternal security doctrine.


1Cr 5:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=5&v=5&t=KJV#comm/5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I am sure this verse has already been presented. Watchmen, Christ gives you peace to know that you are secure in Him. I know that he has done this for me. There would be no peace if every day you wondered if you had crossed the line. Just how much would it take to cross the line?

Grace and peace, TerrellIf you worried about crossing the line you should be worried. If you are truly saved and if you have a true concept of who Christ really is, you would be wondering what you could get away with and still ''remain'' saved. You wouldn't want to do anything that might offend your Savior, the last thing on your mind is here is the line that can't be crossed.

tgallison
Mar 3rd 2009, 10:25 PM
If you worried about crossing the line you should be worried. If you are truly saved and if you have a true concept of who Christ really is, you would be wondering what you could get away with and still ''remain'' saved. You wouldn't want to do anything that might offend your Savior, the last thing on your mind is here is the line that can't be crossed.

We are in a battle with the flesh. If you say you are without sin then your are a liar.(Quote)

You have not answered what would be crossing the line. Just a little sin, or would it take a big sin.

We sin in the flesh every day, even when we don't realize it. The heart is deceitfully wicked. I do not know of anybody that pride does not touch them in some way or another. Sometimes it takes someone on the outside to recognize it.

We will sin as long as we are robed in this flesh. It was the flesh that was condemned in the garden to death because of sin. It is only through the blood of Christ that we are over comers and not we ourselves.

Peace in Christ, Terrell

Vhayes
Mar 3rd 2009, 11:23 PM
I know of at least one that tries.
Oh, I think most would tell you they try - but I have yet to see one that can back it up with scripture. For starters, almost all have designated buildings and that certainly wasn't mentioned in the New Testament. Paul worked at his trade of tent making and didn't live off the "collections" of the churches, so a salaried pastor isn't New Testament teaching. Neither were collection plates (the actual plate, not the collection) nor many other things that modern churches utilize.

So, while you may know of one that tries, I would be fairly confident in saying they fall short somewhere. And I would guess they follow the theology of someone, be it Luther, Wesley, Calvin or a combination of many.

Please understand, I am not saying your church is "faulty". I'm just saying no church operates as the 1st century church did, or at least none to my knowledge.

V

Watchmen
Mar 3rd 2009, 11:36 PM
If you worried about crossing the line you should be worried. If you are truly saved and if you have a true concept of who Christ really is, you would be wondering what you could get away with and still ''remain'' saved. You wouldn't want to do anything that might offend your Savior, the last thing on your mind is here is the line that can't be crossed.


We are in a battle with the flesh. If you say you are without sin then your are a liar.(Quote)

You have not answered what would be crossing the line. Just a little sin, or would it take a big sin.Neither would be crossing the line, it would be continuing in chronic unrepentant sin with no remorse or conviction, it would be turning from your faith all together, and since we are quoting John.
1st John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1st John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
It is not about sin it is about the fact that we can turn away, and if we are saved we would hate sin, and not want to commit sin. If we are truly saved the line we can't cross would not be in our focus at all, but serving God with all that we are and have, that would be our focus.

Butch5
Mar 3rd 2009, 11:37 PM
Oh, I think most would tell you they try - but I have yet to see one that can back it up with scripture. For starters, almost all have designated buildings and that certainly wasn't mentioned in the New Testament. Paul worked at his trade of tent making and didn't live off the "collections" of the churches, so a salaried pastor isn't New Testament teaching. Neither were collection plates (the actual plate, not the collection) nor many other things that modern churches utilize.

So, while you may know of one that tries, I would be fairly confident in saying they fall short somewhere. And I would guess they follow the theology of someone, be it Luther, Wesley, Calvin or a combination of many.

Please understand, I am not saying your church is "faulty". I'm just saying no church operates as the 1st century church did, or at least none to my knowledge.

V

First, it is not my church that I was speaking of. As far as the theology, they follow the early church, not Wesley, Luther, or Calvin. As far as the NT, not only was the collection plate not NT, neither is the collection. Paul does say that those who preach the gospel shall live of the gospel.

tgallison
Mar 4th 2009, 12:47 AM
Neither would be crossing the line, it would be continuing in chronic unrepentant sin with no remorse or conviction, it would be turning from your faith all together, and since we are quoting John.
1st John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1st John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
It is not about sin it is about the fact that we can turn away, and if we are saved we would hate sin, and not want to commit sin. If we are truly saved the line we can't cross would not be in our focus at all, but serving God with all that we are and have, that would be our focus.

Well Peter denied the Lord, where does that put him?

Watchmen
Mar 4th 2009, 01:38 AM
Well Peter denied the Lord, where does that put him?He repented, and in the end gave His life for Christ, I would say that puts Him in Heaven.

tgallison
Mar 4th 2009, 01:46 AM
He repented, and in the end gave His life for Christ, I would say that puts Him in Heaven.

Watchmen greetings

Would you say Peter was saved when he denied Jesus?

Vhayes
Mar 4th 2009, 01:51 AM
First, it is not my church that I was speaking of. As far as the theology, they follow the early church, not Wesley, Luther, or Calvin. As far as the NT, not only was the collection plate not NT, neither is the collection. Paul does say that those who preach the gospel shall live of the gospel.
I Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

I guess I was basing my statement on that verse.
So - this church believes they act as did the 1st century church. Do you believe that Luther, Wesley or Calvin didn't think they also were acting as the 1st century church? They were men who strove to know God and be closer to Him.

But we are derailing the thread in a huge way and at the end of the day, I'll share my thoughts with you and appreciate the fact that you share yours with me but I doubt either of us will change the others mind.

Thank you for the discussion.
V

Watchmen
Mar 4th 2009, 02:29 AM
Watchmen greetings

Would you say Peter was saved when he denied Jesus?Not under the New Covenant Jesus had yet to die and rise again.


But for your arguments sake lets say he was denying Christ did not forfeit his salvation, never returning would have. If he from that point on would have turned from Christ and his teaching he would have lost any salvation he might have had whether it came from the Old or New Covenant, but he didn't he repented and served Christ from that point on.

JerryShugart
Mar 4th 2009, 03:28 AM
Butch,

I quoted the following verse that clearly shows that the original audience to whom John addressed his first epistle had already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

And then you said:

On the contrary, I showed you from Scripture how one does not have eternal life until the resurrection.
Then you denied that you ever said such a thing:

I didn't deny it, I asked you, where is the life?
Then later I said:

The Apostle John tells the Christian the following about eternal life:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).

John tells the Christan that the promise which the Lord promised them is eternal life. Here the Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe. And since Christians are believers then they receive the reward of eternal life. That means that the Lord promises then a life that will never end. If by some reason that life could possibly end then the Lord made a promise which He broke. But we both know that He will not break any promise which He makes.

Then you go back to your denial that anyone possessed eternal life:

Jerry, read that verse again, it is a promise, John says it is a promise. Why would God promise something they already have???
So are you now saying that since the Lord promised them eternal life that none of them possessed it?

All I can see is that you are playing a shell game. One moment you deny that anyone has been given eternal life because no one will have it until they are resurrected. Then you turn around and say that you never denied that the Christian is said to have eternal life. And then you said that since the eternal life was promised then that means no one had eternal life because the Lord would not promise something which they already had.

It is impossible to pin you down on even the most obvious things that are written in the Scriptures. I will no longer waste my time with you. And don't think for a second that your arguments amounted to anything other than a blatant denial of the plain words of the Apostle Paul and the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

In His grace,
Jerry

JerryShugart
Mar 4th 2009, 03:43 AM
Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


These are works of righteousness that Christians are required to do. But I'm sure they will be in regards to something other than eternal life right?
The sheep who inherit the kingdom (v.34) do not do so because of their works. Instead, it is the overcomer who inherits all things:

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:7).

The Apostle John tells us exactly how one overcomes:

"For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:4-5).

Some teach that the sinner is saved by "grace" but then they turn around and deny the Apostles Paul's words which define the principle of "grace":

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).

In His grace,
Jerry

tgallison
Mar 4th 2009, 03:50 AM
[quote=Watchmen;1999808]Not under the New Covenant Jesus had yet to die and rise again.

We evidently disagree what New Covenant means. To me it means the physical versus the spiritual. The physical circumcision verses circumcision of the heart. The letter versus the Spirit. 2Cr 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=3&v=6&t=KJV#comm/6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

Salvation comes the same way in both Old and New Testament. Through the blood of Christ, through the righteousness of God. God's righteousness is imputed to us. What difference does it make if it is imputed before the Lamb is sacrificed, or after. God is not a liar, for he will complete that which he has ordained.


But for your arguments sake lets say he was denying Christ did not forfeit his salvation, never returning would have.

You can't have it both ways, for he was either saved or he wasn't. Your first statement says he wasn't. The point is, you do not see any of the apostles falling away after they are sealed by the Holy Spirit. But you do see them falling away before they are born of the Spirit.


If he from that point on would have turned from Christ and his teaching he would have lost any salvation he might have had whether it came from the Old or New Covenant, but he didn't he repented and served Christ from that point on.

My point again, once you are sealed in the Spirit, the Spirit is able to keep you until the day of redemption, though it might be scarcely by fire.

In Jesus Christ, Terrell

Watchmen
Mar 4th 2009, 04:04 AM
The Bible clearly tells us we can turn away or fall away from our salvation after once receiving it. I have to accept the biblical teaching of mans.

tgallison
Mar 4th 2009, 01:08 PM
The Bible clearly tells us we can turn away or fall away from our salvation after once receiving it. I have to accept the biblical teaching of mans.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Just because one is following Christ does not mean they are born again. We have seen it in the Apostles, and it is clearly shown in Job. When you are born again, you are born of the Spirit. The Spirit does not sin. It is only the flesh that sins. That flesh is the realm of Satan.

Grace and Peace in Jesus Christ, Terrell

kay-gee
Mar 4th 2009, 01:17 PM
A damnable heresay actually because it teaches that converted Christians can live any old way they want, because once saved it is a done deal. I am always curious how these OSAS advocates deal with 2nd Peter 2:20-22 and Hebrews 6:4-6.

all the best...

tgallison
Mar 4th 2009, 01:55 PM
A damnable heresay actually because it teaches that converted Christians can live any old way they want, because once saved it is a done deal. I am always curious how these OSAS advocates deal with 2nd Peter 2:20-22 and Hebrews 6:4-6.

all the best...

That is not true. I live through the Spirit that dwells within me. I live in Christ.

You are not discerning between the Spirit and the flesh. If this flesh was clean, we wouldn't need a new body.

In regards to Hebrews 6:4-6 you have to look to Acts 2:16-21 for the answer.

Hebrews is talking of the Heavenly gift promised to Israel for a sign of the Messiah. Notice that in both Joel 2:27-32 and Acts 2:16-21 that those that partake of the Holy Spirit are not necessarily saved. Because in both Joel and Acts it says, that afterward, that it shall come to pass, that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Job was another one who tasted of the goodness of God, but was not saved. Job was robed in his own righteousness and on his way to the pit. It wasn't until he met God, that he repented, and all things were made new for him including his flesh. You never hear of another day of his life afterward because he had become secure in God. Job was out of danger.

Best regards, Terrell

Butch5
Mar 4th 2009, 02:49 PM
Vhayes---I Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.


I guess I was basing my statement on that verse.

In this verse Paul was writing to have the church at Corinth, take up a collection for the church in Jerusalem. Notice He says, so that no collection be made when I come, he wanted all of the money collected before he got there so he wouldn't have to deal with it when he was there.


Romans 15:24-27 ( KJV ) 24Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company. 25But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Corinth was a rich city and located in Achaia. This is what Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians.


Let me rephrase my statement because they did have a collection in the NT, however it was not considered mandatory. The early church did give, but it was not as a tithe like many churches do today.



Vhayes---So - this church believes they act as did the 1st century church. Do you believe that Luther, Wesley or Calvin didn't think they also were acting as the 1st century church? They were men who strove to know God and be closer to Him.

Luther and Calvin followed the reasoning of Augustine, who had pretty much abandoned the traditions of the early church. Augustine let his Manichean teaching influence his interpretation of Scripture. I don't know much about Wesley


Vhayes---But we are derailing the thread in a huge way and at the end of the day, I'll share my thoughts with you and appreciate the fact that you share yours with me but I doubt either of us will change the others mind.

Yea, this should be in another thread. My mind can be changed if you can show me from Scripture

Butch5
Mar 4th 2009, 02:55 PM
That is not true. I live through the Spirit that dwells within me. I live in Christ.

You are not discerning between the Spirit and the flesh. If this flesh was clean, we wouldn't need a new body.

In regards to Hebrews 6:4-6 you have to look to Acts 2:16-21 for the answer.

Hebrews is talking of the Heavenly gift promised to Israel for a sign of the Messiah. Notice that in both Joel 2:27-32 and Acts 2:16-21 that those that partake of the Holy Spirit are not necessarily saved. Because in both Joel and Acts it says, that afterward, that it shall come to pass, that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Job was another one who tasted of the goodness of God, but was not saved. Job was robed in his own righteousness and on his way to the pit. It wasn't until he met God, that he repented, and all things were made new for him including his flesh. You never hear of another day of his life afterward because he had become secure in God. Job was out of danger.
Best regards, Terrell

I have to agree with KayGee, I did live however I wanted, I use the reasoning that I could not lose my salvation, I figured God would be mad at me for a while and then we would make up. I'm sure there is a multitude that does the same thing, that is why I thing the OSAS doctrine is so dangerous. It was a scarey thing when I realised I was wrong.

tgallison
Mar 4th 2009, 03:12 PM
I have to agree with KayGee, I did live however I wanted, I use the reasoning that I could not lose my salvation, I figured God would be mad at me for a while and then we would make up. I'm sure there is a multitude that does the same thing, that is why I thing the OSAS doctrine is so dangerous. It was a scarey thing when I realised I was wrong.

I would question whether you were saved in the first place. Just because one confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord does not save them. It is a matter of the heart. When we are born again, we are sealed with the Spirit. It is a personal relationship. If you were born again, and then became unborn, how did you become born a third time?

Peace in Christ, Terrell

Butch5
Mar 4th 2009, 03:19 PM
I would question whether you were saved in the first place. Just because one confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord does not save them. It is a matter of the heart. When we are born again, we are sealed with the Spirit. It is a personal relationship. If you were born again, and then became unborn, how did you become born a third time?

Peace in Christ, Terrell

I was saved, I know that. It is not a matter of being unborn, when a person dies are they unborn? Because of wrong doctrine, I let logic lead me into sin. I listened to my pastors because I thought this is what they do they must know what they are talking about. I was wrong, when I began to study the Scriptures myself, it became evident very quickly that salvation could indeed be lost.

divaD
Mar 4th 2009, 03:37 PM
I would question whether you were saved in the first place. Just because one confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord does not save them. It is a matter of the heart. When we are born again, we are sealed with the Spirit. It is a personal relationship. If you were born again, and then became unborn, how did you become born a third time?

Peace in Christ, Terrell



So, do you think it's possible to just think that you are saved, but not really be saved, yet actually literally be saved at a later time instead? If you beleive that Butch5 perhaps wasn't really saved at the time, yet you believe him to be saved now, wouldn't this be what you are suggesting? This seems to contradict what you stated here: When we are born again, we are sealed with the Spirit. Who's to say Butch5 wasn't really saved the first time, if he happens to be saved now?

Watchmen
Mar 4th 2009, 03:56 PM
A damnable heresay actually because it teaches that converted Christians can live any old way they want, because once saved it is a done deal. I am always curious how these OSAS advocates deal with 2nd Peter 2:20-22 and Hebrews 6:4-6.

all the best...I have already quoted those verses they ignore them, by the way OSAS is a damnable heresy, that should be being taught in our church, however it is not the only one.

Butch5
Mar 4th 2009, 04:13 PM
So, do you think it's possible to just think that you are saved, but not really be saved, yet actually literally be saved at a later time instead? If you beleive that Butch5 perhaps wasn't really saved at the time, yet you believe him to be saved now, wouldn't this be what you are suggesting? This seems to contradict what you stated here: When we are born again, we are sealed with the Spirit. Who's to say Butch5 wasn't really saved the first time, if he happens to be saved now?

Hi divaD,

I love your signature, that is great, and so true.

Veretax
Mar 4th 2009, 06:21 PM
Oh, I think most would tell you they try - but I have yet to see one that can back it up with scripture. For starters, almost all have designated buildings and that certainly wasn't mentioned in the New Testament. Paul worked at his trade of tent making and didn't live off the "collections" of the churches, so a salaried pastor isn't New Testament teaching. Neither were collection plates (the actual plate, not the collection) nor many other things that modern churches utilize.


And yet Paul told Timothy that the Laborer is worthy of his wages....

1 Ti 5:17-18 (NKJV)


17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (NKJV)


Although Paul did ask the Corinthians to forgive him the wrong of not bein a burden to them, and then goes on to say that the parents should provide for the child. I'm not really sure what to make of the passage but here it is:


2 Co 12:11-21 (NKJV)


11 I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. 13 For what is it in which you were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? Forgive me this wrong!

Love for the Church

14 Now for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be burdensome to you; for I do not seek yours, but you. For the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. 15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved.

16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning! 17 Did I take advantage of you by any of those whom I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?

19 Again, do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification. 20 For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults; 21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

2 Corinthians 12:11-21 (NKJV)


We could probably debate the interpretation of 2 Cor 12, but getting back on topic.



Here's as much rope as I'm willing to give the NOSAS, if it is possible to lose it, Hebrews says it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it back. So salvation does not move like a roller coaster with its up (saved), down (lost), up (saved again), down (lost again), if it were possible to lose it you'd be lost for the rest of time.


Heb 6:4-8 (NKJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 6:4-8 (NKJV)


Therefore, I say that if it is possible to lose it, you can't get it back, because to lose is it is to reject the Holy Spirit which you partook of says the writer of Hebrews. (That's in essence the unpardonable sin I believe).

Now if you guys who are NOSAS agree with me on this point, how serious must you person Sin to fall into this category?

BroRog
Mar 4th 2009, 07:05 PM
I wasn't taught that I could live any way I want, or live with a disregard for the cross. I was taught that since I was saved by grace, I could stop worrying that my moral failure would disqualify me from eternal life. At the time, I had a strong fear of failure, which paralyzed me. Having removed that fear, the Holy Spirit helped me set about to live a better life and avoid sin as much as possible.

JerryShugart
Mar 4th 2009, 07:05 PM
I have already quoted those verses they ignore them, by the way OSAS is a damnable heresy, that should be being taught in our church, however it is not the only one.
Those verses were NOT ignored.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned" (Heb.6:4-8).

Those who deny the eternal security of the believers who received the epistle to the Hebrews say that these verses are teaching that if these believers fall away then they cannot be saved because it is "impossible" to renew them unto repentance.

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repentance" is "to have a change of mind". It does not always refer to "repentance torward God", and the only other time that the word is used in Hebrews it simply means "a change of mind" (Heb.12:17).

So in verse six the thought is that if they should fall away from some truth then it would not be possible to make them change their mind in regard to that truth. And it is not difficult to see what truth they were ignoring-"they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh."

Despite the teaching that they were no longer under the law they were keeping the law and offering sacrifices that were required under the law and therefore they were crucifying the Son of God afresh.

This verse is not in regard to "repentance torward God", or else we must believe that it is impossible for them to have a change of mind in regard to believing in God. The Lord would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth so therefore He would never say that it is impossible for anyone to have a change of mind torward Him. The door is always open, even for the worst of men.

The following verse explains more about what the "repentance" is in regard to:

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb.10:26-27).

The people who deny that those who received Hebrews had eternal security say that this verse teaches loss of eternal life. They say that these words are not speaking of chastening because they can expect the same judgment which shall "devour the adversaries."

The "sin" spoken of is the same thing that is referred to in the sixth chapter, a "drawing back" to Judaism, a religion that was fulfilled in Christ.

The author of Hebrews compares this "state of sin" to the sins of presumption, which lay outside the sacrifical provisions of the law ( "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin):

"But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him" (Num.15:30,31).

Once a Jew sinned presumptously, he was cut off from among the people and that means they could no longer offer sacrifices for their sins. And those in Hebrews who were offering sacrifices were sinning presumptously by ignoring the fact that the law was done away for all who believed the gospel.

However, the punishment for this kind of sin was only "temporal". Today that same type of punishment is in effect for those who are members of the Body of Christ. If a Christian continues to sin willfully and that sinning brings reproach to the church the Lord will put them to sleep:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1Cor.11:29,30).

We can see that this same principle is in effect in the Body of Christ as one of the Christians in the church at Corinth was living with his father's wife and by doing so he was bringing reproach upon that church. And his punishment is made known by Paul:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor.5:5).

So the verses in regard to the punishment for sins of presumption is not loss of salvation,but instead it is "temporal" punishment and judgment.
But some say that this punishment is not just chastening but instead loss of salvation because they can expect is the same fire which shall 'devour the adversaries.' "

The word "adversaries" refers to those who act against the will of the Lord, and by continuing to practice Judaism they would indeed be considered "adversaries". Their punishment would be the same as the punishment of the man in the church at Corinth who was living with his father's wife, but that punishment would not include a loss of salvation.

The verses that the NOSAS always ignore and refuse to address in ther book of Hebrews is this one:

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Heb.9:12).

The author of the book of Hebrews tells the Christian that the Lord has already obtained redemptiom for them, and he uses the adjective "eternal" to describe that redemption. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So in effect the Christian is told that his redemption is forever,

But the NOSAS people want to ignore this verse.

In His grace,
Jerry

reformedct
Mar 4th 2009, 10:33 PM
i know my name says reforemed but i am beggining to change my mind concerning eternal security. eternal security isnt given to anyone until they have passed the white throne judgement. thats eternal security. we dont have that here on Earth. We have Gods promises, His grace, and the choice to put faith in God to follow thru on what He promised. you cant be secure that you wil always have faith because you dont know what tommorow may bring. thats why we all have to continually be in prayer and communion with God in joy and thankfulness and love.

i have been doing some study on the sin of apostasy and i currently believe that this unforgiveable sin can be commited by a true believer. once commited, it is impossible for them to be forgiven ever again. if this is true, then osas can be very dangerous and people may not be as aware of how important their faith in Christ really is, and may not be aware of the consequences of formally rejecting Him

reformedct
Mar 4th 2009, 10:35 PM
Those verses were NOT ignored.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned" (Heb.6:4-8).

Those who deny the eternal security of the believers who received the epistle to the Hebrews say that these verses are teaching that if these believers fall away then they cannot be saved because it is "impossible" to renew them unto repentance.

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repentance" is "to have a change of mind". It does not always refer to "repentance torward God", and the only other time that the word is used in Hebrews it simply means "a change of mind" (Heb.12:17).

So in verse six the thought is that if they should fall away from some truth then it would not be possible to make them change their mind in regard to that truth. And it is not difficult to see what truth they were ignoring-"they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh."

Despite the teaching that they were no longer under the law they were keeping the law and offering sacrifices that were required under the law and therefore they were crucifying the Son of God afresh.

This verse is not in regard to "repentance torward God", or else we must believe that it is impossible for them to have a change of mind in regard to believing in God. The Lord would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth so therefore He would never say that it is impossible for anyone to have a change of mind torward Him. The door is always open, even for the worst of men.

The following verse explains more about what the "repentance" is in regard to:

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb.10:26-27).

The people who deny that those who received Hebrews had eternal security say that this verse teaches loss of eternal life. They say that these words are not speaking of chastening because they can expect the same judgment which shall "devour the adversaries."

The "sin" spoken of is the same thing that is referred to in the sixth chapter, a "drawing back" to Judaism, a religion that was fulfilled in Christ.

The author of Hebrews compares this "state of sin" to the sins of presumption, which lay outside the sacrifical provisions of the law ( "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin):

"But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him" (Num.15:30,31).

Once a Jew sinned presumptously, he was cut off from among the people and that means they could no longer offer sacrifices for their sins. And those in Hebrews who were offering sacrifices were sinning presumptously by ignoring the fact that the law was done away for all who believed the gospel.

However, the punishment for this kind of sin was only "temporal". Today that same type of punishment is in effect for those who are members of the Body of Christ. If a Christian continues to sin willfully and that sinning brings reproach to the church the Lord will put them to sleep:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1Cor.11:29,30).

We can see that this same principle is in effect in the Body of Christ as one of the Christians in the church at Corinth was living with his father's wife and by doing so he was bringing reproach upon that church. And his punishment is made known by Paul:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor.5:5).

So the verses in regard to the punishment for sins of presumption is not loss of salvation,but instead it is "temporal" punishment and judgment.
But some say that this punishment is not just chastening but instead loss of salvation because they can expect is the same fire which shall 'devour the adversaries.' "

The word "adversaries" refers to those who act against the will of the Lord, and by continuing to practice Judaism they would indeed be considered "adversaries". Their punishment would be the same as the punishment of the man in the church at Corinth who was living with his father's wife, but that punishment would not include a loss of salvation.

The verses that the NOSAS always ignore and refuse to address in ther book of Hebrews is this one:

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Heb.9:12).

The author of the book of Hebrews tells the Christian that the Lord has already obtained redemptiom for them, and he uses the adjective "eternal" to describe that redemption. The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So in effect the Christian is told that his redemption is forever,

But the NOSAS people want to ignore this verse.

In His grace,
Jerry


just for your own interests, i believe that the doctrine of osas is actually the minority worldwide. i also dont believe it was formally taught until the 16th century. if i am correct, even augustine believed salvation could be lost, and so did luther. i would encourage you to do a deep study on the doctrine, if you have not already. its a very vital and important teaching. when the Bible speaks of a great falling away i dont think it is only speaking of fake christians

BroRog
Mar 4th 2009, 11:57 PM
i know my name says reforemed but i am beggining to change my mind concerning eternal security. eternal security isnt given to anyone until they have passed the white throne judgement. thats eternal security. we dont have that here on Earth. We have Gods promises, His grace, and the choice to put faith in God to follow thru on what He promised. you cant be secure that you wil always have faith because you dont know what tommorow may bring. thats why we all have to continually be in prayer and communion with God in joy and thankfulness and love.

i have been doing some study on the sin of apostasy and i currently believe that this unforgiveable sin can be commited by a true believer. once commited, it is impossible for them to be forgiven ever again. if this is true, then osas can be very dangerous and people may not be as aware of how important their faith in Christ really is, and may not be aware of the consequences of formally rejecting Him

But you CAN know that you will always have faith. Read and review the first half of Romans 5, and James 1, and 1Peter 1.

Here is a sample from 1Peter 1,

In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ . . .

Peter is clearly saying that a faith that has been proven will result in "praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

So therefore, you CAN know that your faith will endure to the end, if it has been tested and proven.

Bandit
Mar 5th 2009, 12:27 AM
...
Job was another one who tasted of the goodness of God, but was not saved. Job was robed in his own righteousness and on his way to the pit. ...


I think you have totally misread Job. He was one of the most righteous men who ever lived.

reformedct
Mar 5th 2009, 01:19 AM
Job was another one who tasted of the goodness of God, but was not saved. Job was robed in his own righteousness and on his way to the pit.


:eek:

i missed that verse about job being on his way to the pit maybe you could show it to me?

JerryShugart
Mar 5th 2009, 01:24 AM
just for your own interests, i believe that the doctrine of osas is actually the minority worldwide.
So what if it is minority view?

Do you determine your beliefs on what the "majority" believes?

i also dont believe it was formally taught until the 16th century. if i am correct, even augustine believed salvation could be lost, and so did luther. It was taught "formally" by Paul and the other writers of the New Teastament.

i would encourage you to do a deep study on the doctrine, if you have not already. I already have. And I studied with an open mind from the beginning, caring nothing about what the "majority" view may be.

its a very vital and important teaching. when the Bible speaks of a great falling away i dont think it is only speaking of fake christiansIn certain instances the writers of the NT use the word "faith" to rtefer to the total teaching of the Christian truths revealed in the Bible. Here Jude tells those who already have believed the gospel and have already been saved to "contend for the faith":

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

A Christian can be led away from the truth in regard to some specific doctrine included in the total Christian revelation and be said to have departed from the fath.

But that does not mean that he ever stopped believing the "gospel," that "good news" which is essential to salvation.

So it is a huge mistake to assume that just because the Scriptures speak of anyone departing from the faith that the reference is to a Christian no longer believing the essentials of the Christian revelation.

In His grace,
Jerry

reformedct
Mar 5th 2009, 01:24 AM
We are in a battle with the flesh. If you say you are without sin then your are a liar.(Quote)

You have not answered what would be crossing the line. Just a little sin, or would it take a big sin.

We sin in the flesh every day, even when we don't realize it. The heart is deceitfully wicked. I do not know of anybody that pride does not touch them in some way or another. Sometimes it takes someone on the outside to recognize it.

We will sin as long as we are robed in this flesh. It was the flesh that was condemned in the garden to death because of sin. It is only through the blood of Christ that we are over comers and not we ourselves.

Peace in Christ, Terrell

this is what i ponder today, what sin or how many would cause us to lose it? i think blaspheming the Spirit or outright rejecting Christ altogether would be one, but if its every sin, what bout the things im not even aware of. for example, my dad got frustrated with me because i kept walking past a piece of trash on the floor without picking it up. i honestly wasnt paying attention though to see it. i wonder how many things i am doing that im not even aware of. i think we all have blindspots. for example when people get married and live together, they begin to pick up on each others annoying tendencies, and they might not have even been aware that they did those things. many times i stand in the same postures as my dad does, i dont notice until someone points it out. i think God, being perfect, sees us doing things wrong that we may not even be aware of.

and if thats the case, does sin not count just because we committed it in ignorance? is ignorant sin ok?

tgallison
Mar 5th 2009, 02:05 AM
:eek:

i missed that verse about job being on his way to the pit maybe you could show it to me?

It was during Job's day in court. Elihu was holding court. When court came to order Job was ordered to stand up. "If you can answer me, set your words in order before me: stand up." (Job 33:5)

Elihu found Job guilty or unjust on three charges. "Behold in this you are not just: I will answer you, that God is greater than man." (Job 33:12) Remember one of God's charges against Job. "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?" (Job 40:8)

The three charges are found in verses 9,10, and 11. The chief charge being the first. When Job said, "I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me." Elihu said Job was unjust in this statement.

Job went on to say God speaks to man in visions in the night, to keep his soul back from the pit, because of pride. "He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword." (Job 33:18)

Then Elihu says he is also chastened with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen. In these verses you will see Elihu is describing Job's condition. And then Elihu gives the reason again. "Yes, his soul draws near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers." (Job 33:22)

In verse 23, Elihu is the messenger that shows Job, God's uprightness. In verse 24 Elihu says, "Then He(God) is gracious unto him, and says, Deliver him from going to the pit; I have found a ransom."

Hope I have not offended anyone by taking this off thread.

Terrell

Veretax
Mar 5th 2009, 02:11 AM
i know my name says reforemed but i am beggining to change my mind concerning eternal security. eternal security isnt given to anyone until they have passed the white throne judgement. thats eternal security. we dont have that here on Earth. We have Gods promises, His grace, and the choice to put faith in God to follow thru on what He promised. you cant be secure that you wil always have faith because you dont know what tommorow may bring. thats why we all have to continually be in prayer and communion with God in joy and thankfulness and love.

i have been doing some study on the sin of apostasy and i currently believe that this unforgiveable sin can be commited by a true believer. once commited, it is impossible for them to be forgiven ever again. if this is true, then osas can be very dangerous and people may not be as aware of how important their faith in Christ really is, and may not be aware of the consequences of formally rejecting Him


That's exactly why I believe in OSAS, God's promises, God makes many such promises in the bible. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved! God's promise is never slack.

Personally, I don't believe that its easy to commit the sin refereed to in Hebrws 6, and I don't believe a Christian who has been indwelt with the SPirit can speak against that Spirit either. The bible makes it clear when we believed we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which was the (forget the word, but it basically was talking about him being the assurance/insurance or down payment or earnest on Salvation.)

Partaker of Christ
Mar 5th 2009, 02:16 AM
Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

If a Christian has born fruit, then that Christian is one who has received seed into the good ground. He has heard the word and has understood it.

Jesus said, that this person WILL bring forth much fruit. There is no if's or buts about it.

The danger time, is from receiving the seed to bringing forth the fruit. There is no evidence of the word being received and understood until we see fruit. There is no evidence of the ground being good ground, until we see fruit.

When we see scripture that speaks 'if you continue' or 'if you endure', we see that it is spoken to a young Church, those still in infancy. Often they are still carnal or on the milk.

You will also notice that the apostles say 'IF YOU' endure, or 'IF YOU' continue. Surely they cannot be so high minded and puffed up, to say 'IF YOU'. Should they not have humbly said 'IF WE' endure, or 'IF WE' continue.

Until there is fruit, there is danger of the seed being choked by the cares of the world, or being little root so that when persecution come along, they fall away. Even then, I say my Heavenly Father is the Husbandman. He can remove the weeds, and the stones from the garden.

tgallison
Mar 5th 2009, 02:30 AM
I think you have totally misread Job. He was one of the most righteous men who ever lived.

Actually the Bible does not refer to Job being the most righteous. The most perfect and upright, but does not refer to Job's righteousness in the book of Job, other than to charge him with exalting his righteousness over God.

God uses the adjectives tam and yasher to describe Job as perfect and upright. These are descriptions of Job and not a position.

The verb tsadaq and the noun tsedeq are the words that describe just and righteousness.

Job wasn't justified until he repented and a ransom was found to cover his iniquity.

In Jesus Christ, Terrell

tgallison
Mar 5th 2009, 02:40 AM
That's exactly why I believe in OSAS, God's promises, God makes many such promises in the bible. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved! God's promise is never slack.

I agree with you once you are sealed by the Holy Spirit you cannot be lost, but there is more to the verse you posted.

Rom 10:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=10&v=13&t=KJV#comm/14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

This is exactly what Elihu said to Job, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to show unto man his uprightness." (Job 33:23)

You cannot believe on one you do not know. It takes a personal meeting with God.

In Jesus Christ, Terrell

tgallison
Mar 5th 2009, 02:51 AM
Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.


You can see a lot of Job here before he got saved. Job received the word with joy, but when persecution came he was offended. The wicked won was trying to make a contract with him(Job 41:4) and Job's riches and pride of life was drawing him toward the pit.(Job 33:17-18) But Job endured the tribulation until the time he repented and a ransom was found.(Job 33:24)

Butch5
Mar 5th 2009, 02:57 AM
this is what i ponder today, what sin or how many would cause us to lose it? i think blaspheming the Spirit or outright rejecting Christ altogether would be one, but if its every sin, what bout the things im not even aware of. for example, my dad got frustrated with me because i kept walking past a piece of trash on the floor without picking it up. i honestly wasnt paying attention though to see it. i wonder how many things i am doing that im not even aware of. i think we all have blindspots. for example when people get married and live together, they begin to pick up on each others annoying tendencies, and they might not have even been aware that they did those things. many times i stand in the same postures as my dad does, i dont notice until someone points it out. i think God, being perfect, sees us doing things wrong that we may not even be aware of.

and if thats the case, does sin not count just because we committed it in ignorance? is ignorant sin ok?

We don't have to live in fear Paul said,

Romans 8:1 ( KJV ) 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

IF we are walking in the Spirit, there is no condemnation.

fuzzi
Mar 5th 2009, 03:04 AM
That's exactly why I believe in OSAS, God's promises, God makes many such promises in the bible. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved! God's promise is never slack.
Amen!


Personally, I don't believe that its easy to commit the sin refereed to in Hebrws 6, and I don't believe a Christian who has been indwelt with the SPirit can speak against that Spirit either. The bible makes it clear when we believed we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which was the (forget the word, but it basically was talking about him being the assurance/insurance or down payment or earnest on Salvation.)Here you go:

"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (2 Corinthians 1:22)

Is that the one you meant?

Vhayes
Mar 5th 2009, 03:16 AM
this is what i ponder today, what sin or how many would cause us to lose it? i think blaspheming the Spirit or outright rejecting Christ altogether would be one, but if its every sin, what bout the things im not even aware of. for example, my dad got frustrated with me because i kept walking past a piece of trash on the floor without picking it up. i honestly wasnt paying attention though to see it. i wonder how many things i am doing that im not even aware of. i think we all have blindspots. for example when people get married and live together, they begin to pick up on each others annoying tendencies, and they might not have even been aware that they did those things. many times i stand in the same postures as my dad does, i dont notice until someone points it out. i think God, being perfect, sees us doing things wrong that we may not even be aware of.

and if thats the case, does sin not count just because we committed it in ignorance? is ignorant sin ok?
Which is why it is not about us and how good or bad we are - it's about Jesus and whether or not what He did is enough.

V

Bandit
Mar 5th 2009, 03:16 AM
I think you have totally misread Job. He was one of the most righteous men who ever lived.


Actually the Bible does not refer to Job being the most righteous. The most perfect and upright, but does not refer to Job's righteousness in the book of Job, other than to charge him with exalting his righteousness over God.

God uses the adjectives tam and yasher to describe Job as perfect and upright. These are descriptions of Job and not a position.

The verb tsadaq and the noun tsedeq are the words that describe just and righteousness.

Job wasn't justified until he repented and a ransom was found to cover his iniquity.

In Jesus Christ, Terrell


In Ez. 14:14 God decares Job to be one out of a group of three of the most righteous men who ever lived. I don't understand why people can't see that. Why is Job being one of the most righteous men who ever lived such a problem?

Veretax
Mar 5th 2009, 01:29 PM
Amen!

Here you go:

"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (2 Corinthians 1:22)

Is that the one you meant?


Yeah that's the one. See this is what I don't get, the full calvinist who believes God is responsible entirely for the saving and that man effectively has no part, if its all God, then how can man do anything to undo what God hath already done? For those that are believe man must respond to the salvation call, why would someone respond, call upon the LORD, receive the Holy Spirit of Promise as the Earnest, and then throw it away? THe bible makes it clear that no man speaking by the spirit can call that same spirit occurred, and since new believers are a new transformed creature in Christ, possessing that new spirit, why do we think we can ever reject what the Lord has already declared finished?

tgallison
Mar 5th 2009, 01:57 PM
In Ez. 14:14 God decares Job to be one out of a group of three of the most righteous men who ever lived. I don't understand why people can't see that. Why is Job being one of the most righteous men who ever lived such a problem?

Notice that I qualified my statement about God never saying Job was righteous, by saying, "in the book of Job".

It is my personal opinion that the righteousness that is described in Ezekiel is imputed righteousness. That is what the book of Job is all about. Job's self-righteousness versus God's righteousness.

The Bible declared Noah just(tsaddiyq), before he stepped into the Ark.It never declared Job just in the book of Job. In fact just the opposite. Elihu declared Job unjust(tsadaq) in Job's trial. He was declared unjust because he exalted himself above God and that is pride. God said to Job, "Will you condemn me, that you may be righteous(tsadaq)?" (Job 40:8)

Best regards, Terrell

Butch5
Mar 5th 2009, 02:21 PM
Butch,

I quoted the following verse that clearly shows that the original audience to whom John addressed his first epistle had already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

And then you said:

Then you denied that you ever said such a thing:

Then later I said:

The Apostle John tells the Christian the following about eternal life:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).

John tells the Christan that the promise which the Lord promised them is eternal life. Here the Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe. And since Christians are believers then they receive the reward of eternal life. That means that the Lord promises then a life that will never end. If by some reason that life could possibly end then the Lord made a promise which He broke. But we both know that He will not break any promise which He makes.

Then you go back to your denial that anyone possessed eternal life:

So are you now saying that since the Lord promised them eternal life that none of them possessed it?

All I can see is that you are playing a shell game. One moment you deny that anyone has been given eternal life because no one will have it until they are resurrected. Then you turn around and say that you never denied that the Christian is said to have eternal life. And then you said that since the eternal life was promised then that means no one had eternal life because the Lord would not promise something which they already had.

It is impossible to pin you down on even the most obvious things that are written in the Scriptures. I will no longer waste my time with you. And don't think for a second that your arguments amounted to anything other than a blatant denial of the plain words of the Apostle Paul and the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

In His grace,
Jerry

Jerry,

This is the typical response. I have shown you from Scripture that your doctrine is flawed, yet rather than accept what the Scriptures say, you try to make it look like I am playing games. However, I have been on this forum long enough for people to know that I don't play games. Every time I give you Scripture that plainly shows that Christians can lose salvation, you try to give some kind of different meaning to the verse. If I use your understanding then I cannot take any verse of Scripture at face value, it must mean something other than what it appears to say. If Jesus tells the disciples their sins will not be forgiven unless they forgive, somehow these sins cannot keep them from getting into heaven. What sins can enter into the kingdom of God? Unforgiveness? Jesus directly told the disciples to make sure that they do not end up in hell, however you have that meaning something completely different than what it says. I don't think that it is me who is playing the game.

Partaker of Christ
Mar 5th 2009, 02:43 PM
Jerry,

This is the typical response. I have shown you from Scripture that your doctrine is flawed, yet rather than accept what the Scriptures say, you try to make it look like I am playing games. However, I have been on this forum long enough for people to know that I don't play games. Every time I give you Scripture that plainly shows that Christians can lose salvation, you try to give some kind of different meaning to the verse. If I use your understanding then I cannot take any verse of Scripture at face value, it must mean something other than what it appears to say. If Jesus tells the disciples their sins will not be forgiven unless they forgive, somehow these sins cannot keep them from getting into heaven. What sins can enter into the kingdom of God? Unforgiveness? Jesus directly told the disciples to make sure that they do not end up in hell, however you have that meaning something completely different than what it says. I don't think that it is me who is playing the game.

Were does it say, that something not forgiven, will cause you to loose salvation?

bailey001
Mar 5th 2009, 03:28 PM
Excuse me please. Without going into alot of mess I know I fell into apostacy. I do have free will. After returning to Christ wondering had I lost my salvation., or had I always been eternally safe I read

James 5:19-20, 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and cover a mutitude of sins.

Butch I agree with you about eternal salvation and free will. We are not missing the point and turning it into a works salvation. Our faith still depends on what Christ did at calvary. If I lead twenty people to Christ and they are true believers bearing wonderful and great fruit for the kingdom based first on Christ dying on the cross for them. Then tomorrow I covet the new house my neighbor built. I realize my action is wrong am I still going to heaven, yes I am just like those who believe in eternal salvation will. We still sin but the Lords blood covers a multitude of sin.

Same scenario, I lead 20 to Christ, in the next ten years they plant 4 new churches, a shool, and a community outreach to reach neighbors for Christ. I am smack dab in the middle of it contrite and humble, but something happens say an affair. It tears my marriage apart. I turn from God never asking forgiveness, will I lose my eternal salvation? read James 5: 19-20, I do believe I will spend eternity in hell.

JerryShugart
Mar 5th 2009, 03:30 PM
Jerry,This is the typical response. I have shown you from Scripture that your doctrine is flawed, yet rather than accept what the Scriptures say, you try to make it look like I am playing games.
Butch,

You are playing games! You do not deal honestly with the verses which say that the Christian has already been given eternal life. I quoted the following verse to prove that they do:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

And then you said:

On the contrary, I showed you from Scripture how one does not have eternal life until the resurrection.
Then you denied that you ever said such a thing:

I didn't deny it, I asked you, where is the life?
Then later I said:

The Apostle John tells the Christian the following about eternal life:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).

John tells the Christan that the promise which the Lord promised them is eternal life. Here the Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe. And since Christians are believers then they receive the reward of eternal life. That means that the Lord promises then a life that will never end. If by some reason that life could possibly end then the Lord made a promise which He broke. But we both know that He will not break any promise which He makes.

Then you go back to your denial that anyone possessed eternal life:

Jerry, read that verse again, it is a promise, John says it is a promise. Why would God promise something they already have???
You will not deal honestly with these verses because you know that if these verses are taken at face value they prove that your ideas are in error.

I do not know if you are doing this consciously or if you are just deluding your mind into believing these fantasies. In either case, you are not dealing with these verses in an open manner.

So it is a waste of time to continue to discuss these things with you.

In His grace,
Jerry

JerryShugart
Mar 5th 2009, 03:36 PM
Butch I agree with you about eternal salvation and free will. We are not missing the point and turning it into a works salvation .
You do not even understand that Butch is indeed turning it into a works salvation. He says that unless one does the "work" of forgiving others then he cannot be saved!

In His grace,
Jerry

bailey001
Mar 5th 2009, 03:55 PM
Thank you Jerry I may not have read all of Butch's post but I still believe one can lose their eternal salvation. This is not to say I want to argue the point I just know what the Lord put in my heart for the situation I was in. I would like to here what you thought of what I posted.

Butch5
Mar 5th 2009, 04:43 PM
Butch,

You are playing games! You do not deal honestly with the verses which say that the Christian has already been given eternal life. I quoted the following verse to prove that they do:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

And then you said:

Then you denied that you ever said such a thing:

Then later I said:

The Apostle John tells the Christian the following about eternal life:

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 Jn.2:25).

John tells the Christan that the promise which the Lord promised them is eternal life. Here the Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The Lord Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe. And since Christians are believers then they receive the reward of eternal life. That means that the Lord promises then a life that will never end. If by some reason that life could possibly end then the Lord made a promise which He broke. But we both know that He will not break any promise which He makes.

Then you go back to your denial that anyone possessed eternal life:

You will not deal honestly with these verses because you know that if these verses are taken at face value they prove that your ideas are in error.

I do not know if you are doing this consciously or if you are just deluding your mind into believing these fantasies. In either case, you are not dealing with these verses in an open manner.

So it is a waste of time to continue to discuss these things with you.

In His grace,
Jerry

Let me explain this to you. I have not denied anything. Believers have been given eternal life as a promise, they are not yet in possession of it. When John says we have been given eternal life, he says that life is in Christ. We have been given Christ, God sent Him to die us. Just a one can have a million dollars in a trust fund, they can be said to have a million dollars, however they are not in possession of it. This trust fund usually has a condition attached, such as reaching a certain age before one can take hold of the money. Likewise the promise of eternal life has a condition. It is only for the one who "is believing." The believer has the promise of eternal life, not possession of eternal life. I have shown you this from Scripture, where Paul says he is "in hope of" eternal life. I have shown you where Jesus said, 'to him who overcomes, I will give to eat of the tree of life'. I have shown you from Genesis, that God said if Adam were to eat from the tree of life, he would live forever. Paul tells Timothy to fight the good fight of faith and to "lay hold" of eternal life. Paul says to the Romans, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the "end" everlasting life.

In light of these passages please explain the tension. If believers are already in possession of eternal life, why does Paul say he is "in hope of" eternal life? Why does Paul tell Timothy to "lay hold of" eternal life? Why does Jesus offer to give to eat of the tree of life? Why did God say that if Adam ate from the tree of life he would live forever? Why did Paul say to the Romans, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the "end" everlasting life? The end? Don't they already possess it?

I think this makes it clear that the one verse you are clinging to is being taken out of context. Please explain what these passages mean in light of your understanding of 1 John 5:11.

Butch5
Mar 5th 2009, 04:47 PM
Excuse me please. Without going into alot of mess I know I fell into apostacy. I do have free will. After returning to Christ wondering had I lost my salvation., or had I always been eternally safe I read

James 5:19-20, 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and cover a mutitude of sins.

Butch I agree with you about eternal salvation and free will. We are not missing the point and turning it into a works salvation. Our faith still depends on what Christ did at calvary. If I lead twenty people to Christ and they are true believers bearing wonderful and great fruit for the kingdom based first on Christ dying on the cross for them. Then tomorrow I covet the new house my neighbor built. I realize my action is wrong am I still going to heaven, yes I am just like those who believe in eternal salvation will. We still sin but the Lords blood covers a multitude of sin.

Same scenario, I lead 20 to Christ, in the next ten years they plant 4 new churches, a shool, and a community outreach to reach neighbors for Christ. I am smack dab in the middle of it contrite and humble, but something happens say an affair. It tears my marriage apart. I turn from God never asking forgiveness, will I lose my eternal salvation? read James 5: 19-20, I do believe I will spend eternity in hell.

While I do believe works are necessary to be saved at the judgment, that is another thread. I agree that if one turns from Christ and rejects Him they will be lost.

JerryShugart
Mar 5th 2009, 06:26 PM
Let me explain this to you. I have not denied anything. Believers have been given eternal life as a promise, they are not yet in possession of it.
It is impossible to discuss these issues with someone who will just deny what the Scriptures say in black and white:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

You deny what John says here because it does not fit your views.

The believer has the promise of eternal life, not possession of eternal life. I have shown you this from Scripture, where Paul says he is "in hope of" eternal life. I have already addressed that. And you had no answer. The "hope of eternal life" is speaking about the hope which the Christian has in regard to receiving a new, glorious body just like the Lord Jesus' body at the rapture (Phil.3:21). That new body is referred as as the Christian's "hope of eternal life."

In His grace,
Jerry

Butch5
Mar 5th 2009, 07:14 PM
It is impossible to discuss these issues with someone who will just deny what the Scriptures say in black and white:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

You deny what John says here because it does not fit your views.
I have already addressed that. And you had no answer. The "hope of eternal life" is speaking about the hope which the Christian has in regard to receiving a new, glorious body just like the Lord Jesus' body at the rapture (Phil.3:21). That new body is referred as as the Christian's "hope of eternal life."

In His grace,
Jerry

Oh, so, just because you say that's what it refers to, that is what it means???


Philippians 3:21 ( KJV ) 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Please show me where this verse is speaking of the hope of eternal life as a reference to the body.

You see my friend you think you are addressing the issue but you are not, you are throwing out verses that do not even address the issue.

Now, could you please answer the questions from my last post and stop deflecting the conversation by saying "you deny". Please address the passages that speak of eternal life as a "promise".

Butch5
Mar 5th 2009, 07:18 PM
You do not even understand that Butch is indeed turning it into a works salvation. He says that unless one does the "work" of forgiving others then he cannot be saved!

In His grace,
Jerry


No, my friend Jesus said, if you don't forgive men their sins, neither will your Father in heaven forgive yours.

BroRog
Mar 5th 2009, 07:43 PM
You do not even understand that Butch is indeed turning it into a works salvation. He says that unless one does the "work" of forgiving others then he cannot be saved!

In His grace,
Jerry

Jerry, Butch didn't make it up. He is quoting Jesus. You've got to wonder about someone who would refuse to forgive someone. Are they really saved?

JerryShugart
Mar 5th 2009, 09:27 PM
Oh, so, just because you say that's what it refers to, that is what it means???
Anyone who has done a study of the "hope knows that it is in regard to the new, incorruptible body that the Christian will put on at the rapture. Here Peter refers to that "hope":

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).

According to Peter, this hope" is reserved in heaven for the Christian. And according to Paul it is the Christian's new, glorious body that is reserved in heaven:

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col.1:3-5).

Paul describes the glorious body which the Christian will put on as "our house which is from heaven":

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

Peter also uses the word "hope" to refer to the inheritance and to the glorious body the Christian will put on at the rapture, and that is the same "blessed hope" referred to here by Paul:

"Awaiting our blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

Incorruptible

The glorious body which the Christian will put on is decribed as being incorruptible, a body that will not fade away:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:51-53).

And that is the same word which Peter uses here in describing the Christian's "hope":

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).

"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away " (1 Pet.5:4).

I have given evidence here that the "hope" of eternal life that the Christian is looking forward to is a new, glorious body that will be just like the eternal, glorious body of the Lord Jesus. But you have given no evidence that we should not believe John when he tells Christians that they already possess a life in the Son which will never end:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

You continue to deny that the Lord Jesus told people that those who "believe" HAVE eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

You have yet to provide an exagesis of these verses. Instead you have searched the Scriptures in an effort to attempt to prove what John and the Lord Jesus said is not true!

In His grace,
Jerry

JerryShugart
Mar 5th 2009, 09:33 PM
Jerry, Butch didn't make it up. He is quoting Jesus. You've got to wonder about someone who would refuse to forgive someone. Are they really saved?
No, BroRog, Butch did not give any evidence that the verses which nhe quoted in regard to "forgiveness of sins" has anything to do with receiving salvation. The following words are written to Christians and they are not in regard to salvation:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

Do you think that the "forgiveness of sins" referred to here are in regard to gaining salvation?

In His grace,
Jerry

Butch5
Mar 5th 2009, 10:12 PM
JerryShugart---Anyone who has done a study of the "hope knows that it is in regard to the new, incorruptible body that the Christian will put on at the rapture. Here Peter refers to that "hope":

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).

Where does this speak of a resurrected body?


JerryShugart---According to Peter, this hope" is reserved in heaven for the Christian. And according to Paul it is the Christian's new, glorious body that is reserved in heaven:

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col.1:3-5).


Where does this speak of a resurrected body?


JerryShugart---Paul describes the glorious body which the Christian will put on as "our house which is from heaven":

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).


Peter also uses the word "hope" to refer to the inheritance and to the glorious body the Christian will put on at the rapture, and that is the same "blessed hope" referred to here by Paul:

"Awaiting our blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

Where does this say that Peter is referring to the resurrected body?


JerryShugart---Incorruptible

The glorious body which the Christian will put on is described as being incorruptible, a body that will not fade away:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:51-53).

And that is the same word which Peter uses here in describing the Christian's "hope":

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).


"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away " (1 Pet.5:4).

Where does Peter say this inheritance it the resurrected body?



JerryShugart---I have given evidence here that the "hope" of eternal life that the Christian is looking forward to is a new, glorious body that will be just like the eternal, glorious body of the Lord Jesus. But you have given no evidence that we should not believe John when he tells Christians that they already possess a life in the Son which will never end:
No, you've thrown together a few verses that don't deal with the issue. I'm going to post the verse again,

Titus 1:1-2 ( KJV ) 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Paul says "in hope of" eternal life. The word hope does not mean the blessed hope, Paul said he was in hope of, that means he is hoping for. You have gone and changed the wording and then given a bunch of Scriptures to try to support your changed wording.
Paul said he was, in hope of, eternal life, but you deny Paul's words, (I couldn't resist). In Paul's statement he is simply saying that he is in hope of eternal life.
Regarding an exegesis of the verses, i have given you an exegesis of them, unlike you, I have put forth verses and you say it doesn't mean that, then proceed to run all around the Bible grabbing various verses and say it means this, instead of dealing with the passage at hand.

By the way, you still haven't told my how one gets into heaven with unforgiven sin.

BroRog
Mar 6th 2009, 12:27 AM
No, BroRog, Butch did not give any evidence that the verses which nhe quoted in regard to "forgiveness of sins" has anything to do with receiving salvation. The following words are written to Christians and they are not in regard to salvation:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

Do you think that the "forgiveness of sins" referred to here are in regard to gaining salvation?

In His grace,
Jerry

Jerry,

If I understand your view, you want to say that there is nothing that we can do to merit salvation. I think Butch would agree with you if you put it that way as would I.

I believe the passage Butch mentioned was Jesus' statement as recorded in Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." In this passage Jesus clearly indicates reciprocity between our willingness to forgive and God's willingness to forgive. We can't avoid the implication that we have more to our faith than scoring 100% on a test of the five fundamentals.

To say that we are saved "by faith", is to say that we are saved in view of our affirmation of a belief system which includes the belief that our willingness to forgive is a logical implication of our being forgiven already.

Jesus tells the parable of the man who owed a king a "trillion" dollars. In view of the fact that the man could never repay such a large amount, the king decided to forgive the man's debt and let him go free. As the man was leaving the King, he came upon a man who owed him a couple of dollars, demanding that he be put in prison. Seeing this man's behavior, the king changed his mind and threw that man into prison.

The conclusion to the story is that if God was willing to forgive us such great trespasses as we have done, we should be willing to forgive those who have trespassed against us. The latter is a logical implication of the former.

You asserted that Butch was teaching a "works" based salvation. To be fair, I don't think Butch is trying to say that forgiving others is meritorious such that if we forgive others, God is obligated to save us. But our faith has content that we affirm and we do what we can to exemplify our beliefs in what we do every day.

BroRog
Mar 6th 2009, 12:33 AM
In Paul's statement he is simply saying that he is in hope of eternal life.

The Greek word for hope is not the same as our English word hope.

Our English word expresses our wish or desire as in "I hope it will rain today." I don't expect it to rain today, but it sure would be nice if it would.

The Greek word behind the word "hope" is much stronger. It expresses our confident expectation. We would never say this but the Greeks might say, "My hope is that the sun will rise today."

When Paul talks about his hope for eternal life, he is as sure about his being granted eternal life as he is that the sun will rise.

JerryShugart
Mar 6th 2009, 01:36 AM
Regarding an exegesis of the verses, i have given you an exegesis of them, unlike you...
Butch, your so-called exegesis of these verses is not an exegesis at all. For instance, let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The Greek word echo is translated "has" in this verse is in the present tense. In other words, the Lord Jesus tells those who are believing that they have eternal life at the very time they are believing. This is so simple but for some reason it is above your ability to understand. You say:

On the contrary, I showed you from Scripture how one does not have eternal life until the resurrection.You just deny the obvious. Anyone reading what the Lord Jesus said knows that he did not tell anyone that those who are believing will have everlasting life at the resurrection.

Let us look at the following verse:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).

Here the Greek word didomi is translated "give" is in the "present" tense. But you deny that anyone receives eternal life until the resurrection:

On the contrary, I showed you from Scripture how one does not have eternal life until the resurrection.How do you expect anyone to take you seriously, Butch?

It is obvious that you put more faith in your preconceived notions than you do in what the Scriptures actually say. If anyone is going to believe you then they must believe that you know more about "eternal life" than did the Apostle Paul or the Lord Jesus Himself!

And you certainly understand very little about the Christian's wonderful inheritance, the "blessed hope." The Greek word translated "hope" means "expectation of good" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So here Peter is speaking of the Christian's expectation of a "hope" which is in regard to an "inheritance":

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).

To this you say:

Where does Peter say this inheritance it the resurrected body?The Apostle Paul refers to the resurrected body as a Christian's inheritance:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" (Eph.1:13-14).

Here Paul is saying that the Spirit is the earnest of our "inheritance" until the redemption of that inheritance, which is in regard to a "purchased possession."

Then later in the same epistle Paul writes:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Eph.4:30).

The Holy Spirit is the earnest of the Christian's "inheritance," and the Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the "day of redemption." That day is when the "redemption of the purchased possession" will occur. And that is in regard to the "redemption of our body":

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).

So Paul refers to the resurrection of the body as the Christian's inheritance.

In His grace,
Jerry

fuzzi
Mar 6th 2009, 01:45 AM
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Ephesians 5:29,30)

Okay, someone explain to me using Scripture how we can lose our salvation, when we are a part of Him! We are members of His body.

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13)

If we stop believing, He will be faithful, because He CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.

We're part of Him, and He's stuck with us... ;)

JerryShugart
Mar 6th 2009, 01:51 AM
Jerry,

If I understand your view, you want to say that there is nothing that we can do to merit salvation. I think Butch would agree with you if you put it that way as would I.

I believe the passage Butch mentioned was Jesus' statement as recorded in Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." In this passage Jesus clearly indicates reciprocity between our willingness to forgive and God's willingness to forgive. We can't avoid the implication that we have more to our faith than scoring 100% on a test of the five fundamentals.
BroRog,

The Phippian jailer asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved. Here is their answer:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31).

There it is! Believe and nothing else. Here are the Lord Jesus' own words:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

What about His words there do you not understand?

The following words are written to Christians and they are not in regard to salvation:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

Now please answer my question: "Do you think that the 'forgiveness of sins' referred to here are in regard to gaining salvation?"

In His grace,
Jerry

Vhayes
Mar 6th 2009, 02:55 AM
Titus 1:1-2 ( KJV ) 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Paul says "in hope of" eternal life. The word hope does not mean the blessed hope, Paul said he was in hope of, that means he is hoping for. You have gone and changed the wording and then given a bunch of Scriptures to try to support your changed wording.
Paul said he was, in hope of, eternal life, but you deny Paul's words, (I couldn't resist). In Paul's statement he is simply saying that he is in hope of eternal life.
Regarding an exegesis of the verses, i have given you an exegesis of them, unlike you, I have put forth verses and you say it doesn't mean that, then proceed to run all around the Bible grabbing various verses and say it means this, instead of dealing with the passage at hand.

By the way, you still haven't told my how one gets into heaven with unforgiven sin.
Hebrews 11 -


1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

He Who promised is faithful.
V

BroRog
Mar 6th 2009, 02:37 PM
BroRog,

The Phippian jailer asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved. Here is their answer:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31).

There it is! Believe and nothing else.


Jerry, we are talking about belief. To "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is to believe his teaching. And Jesus taught that those who refuse to forgive will not be forgiven.


Here are the Lord Jesus' own words:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

What about His words there do you not understand?


What's your point Jerry? :) Either I act on my beliefs or they aren't my beliefs. Jesus says "he who hears my word and believes"; it's not enough just to hear his word, I must also believe it. Again, Jesus said that if a man will not forgive, God will not for give him. Jesus also said many other things like, "love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek" and more. All of these things are Jesus' word. And if I don't love my enemies, pray for those who persecute me, or turn the other cheek, I am not believing his word.



The following words are written to Christians and they are not in regard to salvation:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

Now please answer my question: "Do you think that the 'forgiveness of sins' referred to here are in regard to gaining salvation?"

In His grace,
Jerry

Yes, Jerry.

JerryShugart
Mar 6th 2009, 03:52 PM
Jerry, we are talking about belief. To "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is to believe his teaching. And Jesus taught that those who refuse to forgive will not be forgiven.
Yes, BroRog. We are talking about belief. You seem to confuse "faith" with the "obedience of faith."

Those are two different things. Not one and the same.

What's your point Jerry? Either I act on my beliefs or they aren't my beliefs. When one "acts" in one way or another those "acts" are the same thing as "works." And "works" play no part in our salvation, which is by "grace."

Here Paul describes the principle of salvation by "grace":

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:4-6).

Jesus says "he who hears my word and believes"; it's not enough just to hear his word, I must also believe it. That's right, believe it. Not do works.

Again, Jesus said that if a man will not forgive, God will not for give him. Jesus also said many other things like, "love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek" and more. All of these things are Jesus' word. And if I don't love my enemies, pray for those who persecute me, or turn the other cheek, I am not believing his word.Christians are not called "unto uncleanness but unto holiness" (1 Thess.4:4). So any sin which we commit makes us unclean. But that does not mean that we do not believe. If your reasoning was valid any sin which any Christian commits would be evidence that he does not believe.

Your reasoning fails to make a distinction between "faith" and the "obedience of faith." Your ideas are a denial that the believer is justified by "grace."

In His grace,
Jerry

BroRog
Mar 6th 2009, 06:59 PM
Yes, BroRog. We are talking about belief. You seem to confuse "faith" with the "obedience of faith."

I'm not confusing the two. I'm saying you can't have one without the other.


Those are two different things. Not one and the same.
When one "acts" in one way or another those "acts" are the same thing as "works." And "works" play no part in our salvation, which is by "grace."

Here Paul describes the principle of salvation by "grace":

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:4-6).
That's right, believe it. Not do works.

In Romans 4, the issue is whether a Gentile man or woman can be saved without performing the Jewish rites and rituals which God commanded Israel to perform. He argues that God saved Abraham in view of his faith, with the understanding that God was reading the heart of Abraham. Paul employs Abraham as his example because God had saved Abraham hundreds of years prior to giving Israel the Law.

The issue in this section doesn't encompass all works, but only the works of the Mosaic Law. And his point is not to say that God's law has been rescinded, but that Gentiles, like Abraham, find salvation as Abraham found it.

To clear things up, James argues that "faith was working with his works" to such a degree that he concludes, "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Here James is talking about those who make a claim to have faith. A man's claim to faith, he says, is an empty claim unless he can demonstrate his faith through action. Speaking of himself he says, " I will show you my faith by my works."

He also says that our actions set us apart from the demons, who also claim that "God is one." Demons have faith too. Demons believe all the same things we believe. But what sets us apart from the demons is not our faith, but our actions.


Christians are not called "unto uncleanness but unto holiness" (1 Thess.4:4). So any sin which we commit makes us unclean. But that does not mean that we do not believe. If your reasoning was valid any sin which any Christian commits would be evidence that he does not believe.

This is a common mistake among Christians, which says that virtuous acts are the obedience of faith. And this mistake would lead some to think that moral failures are based in a lack of faith, which is far from the truth. In reality, acts of faith are related to what we believe. They flow logically from what we believe.

For instance, the paralytic and his friends broke through the roof of the house to get at Jesus because they believed that Jesus came from God and that God was working through him. We have a logical connection between what the paralytic believed and what he did about it.

The woman with an issue of blood believed that if she were to merely get close enough to touch his cloak, she would be healed. And acting on that belief, she pushed through the crowd in order to touch him. Here again is a logical connection between what this woman believed and what she did about it.

The centurion believed that Jesus performed his miracles by commanding angels to perform them. Therefore, he told Jesus that he didn't have to come to his house to perform the healing, but only that Jesus might command that it be done. We see another logical connection between what a man believes and how he acts. And Jesus said the centurion had a faith to marvel at.


Your reasoning fails to make a distinction between "faith" and the "obedience of faith." Your ideas are a denial that the believer is justified by "grace."

In His grace,
Jerry

Jesus tells a story about the Prodigal Son. In that story the boy came home to work as his father's servant thinking that if he repented, his father might take him to be a servant and let him eat his father's food. His course of action followed naturally from what the boy believed to be true about his father. And so the boy approached his father in repentance.

This story is more about the boy who didn't leave than this boy. However, what this boy did speaks to your question. The talk is about how our actions flow naturally and logically from what we believe. This boy returned home in repentance, believing that his father was a good man and would take him into his home as a servant if only he would repent. The boy was not attempting to argue that his behavior merited his father's care. He was counting on his father's grace to help him.

When James says that our actions justify us, he isn't saying that our actions are meritorious. The fact that we are saved by grace is understood. The issue is what we do with our faith and whether that faith is genuine or simply talk.

When Jesus says that God will not forgive us if we don't forgive others, he isn't suggesting for a minute that our forgiveness of others merits our salvation. We agree that salvation is given to those who believe, but the prior question is, am I one of those who believe? And how do I really know?

JerryShugart
Mar 6th 2009, 08:53 PM
In Romans 4, the issue is whether a Gentile man or woman can be saved without performing the Jewish rites and rituals which God commanded Israel to perform.
That is not what the words "the law" refer to. You have been deceived to such an extent that you do not even understand the priniciple of "grace" by which the sinner is saved. From the following verse we can understand that when Paul uses the words "the law" in this discourse he is NOT referring to the Jewish rites and rituals, as you maintain:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).

Here Paul says that "the law" is "the knowledge of sin."

It is not by the Jewish rituals and rites that anyone received the "knowledge of sin," but instead it is by the moral law, and in the case of "the law" the reference is to the Ten Commandments. Paul himself says that it was through one of the commandments that he received the knowledge of sin:

"Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).

To clear things up, James argues that "faith was working with his works" to such a degree that he concludes, "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Here James is talking about those who make a claim to have faith. A man's claim to faith, he says, is an empty claim unless he can demonstrate his faith through action. Speaking of himself he says, " I will show you my faith by my works."
Yes, but the demonstration of one's faith is so that others can know whether or not another person really has a true faith. The Lord knows the heart and does not need to see outward demonstrations to know whether or not a person has faith or not.

Here James tells us exactly how a sinner is saved:

"Of His own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18).

The sinner is born again when he belierves the gospel (1 Pet.1:23-25). It is by one's faith and faith alone by which the sinner receives life. The Lord Jesus said:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

Your teaching is a denial of the words of the Lord Jesus. According to you faith is not enough to save the sinner despite the clear words of the Lord Jesus to the contrary:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The fact that we are saved by grace is understood.
You certainly do not understand it. Paul says that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

You obviously do not understand what "freely" means. It does not mean that one must do "works" to be justified, as you imagine. Only those of us who have received the Spirit of God can understand the things which are "freely" given to those who believe:

"...the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.2:11-12).

The "gift" of eternal life comes to all who believe as witnessed by the words of the Lord and Savior at John 5:24. And Paul makes it plain that eternal life is a "gift":

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:23).

You throw your reason to the wind and insist that sinners cannot receive the "gift" of eternal life apart from doing "works" of one kind or another. You turn reason on its head when you argue that the believer cannot be justified "freely by His grace" unless he does "works" of one kind or another.

You obviously do not know the meanings of the words "freely" or "gift."

In His grace,
Jerry

Butch5
Mar 6th 2009, 11:17 PM
The Greek word for hope is not the same as our English word hope.

Our English word expresses our wish or desire as in "I hope it will rain today." I don't expect it to rain today, but it sure would be nice if it would.

The Greek word behind the word "hope" is much stronger. It expresses our confident expectation. We would never say this but the Greeks might say, "My hope is that the sun will rise today."

When Paul talks about his hope for eternal life, he is as sure about his being granted eternal life as he is that the sun will rise.

Yea, I wasn't inferring that Paul was in fear or doubt, I was only trying to point out that Paul was yet awaiting eternal life.

BroRog
Mar 7th 2009, 02:08 AM
It is not by the Jewish rituals and rites that anyone received the "knowledge of sin," but instead it is by the moral law, and in the case of "the law" the reference is to the Ten Commandments.

I disagree. First of all, every commandment in the Mosaic Law is part of the moral law for the Jews in this respect. To disobey God is immoral. And so, even though commandments concerning the diet and the dress are not intrinsically moral issues, to refuse to restrict the diet, and etc. is a moral issue since God commanded it of Israel.

Secondly, it is well understood that Paul's use of the phrase "works of the law" includes the entire praxis. Notice how Paul uses the phrase here in Galatians 2, where we have the exact same sentence we find in Romans 3.

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

In Paul's mind, to do the works of the law is to live like a Jew. He asks Peter why he lives like a Gentile and not like a Jew, but he compels the Gentiles to live like Jews. He reminds Peter that, though they are Jews by nature, they know that a man is not justified by works of the law. In this context, then, to live like a Jew a man had to perform the works of the law, which includes all the rites and rituals of the Law.


Paul himself says that it was through one of the commandments that he received the knowledge of sin:

"Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).

Undoubtedly Paul discovered the truth about himself as he contemplated the tenth Commandment. Nonetheless, Paul says that the Jews should have understood the need for a permanent sacrifice from the fact that the High priest had to make offerings continually. The basis of his argument is not the Ten Commandments but the sacrificial system.


Yes, but the demonstration of one's faith is so that others can know whether or not another person really has a true faith. The Lord knows the heart and does not need to see outward demonstrations to know whether or not a person has faith or not.


Okay, so let's cut to the chase. Jesus says that if you refuse to forgive God will not forgive you. How does a lack of forgiveness demonstrate true faith?


You throw your reason to the wind and insist that sinners cannot receive the "gift" of eternal life apart from doing "works" of one kind or another. You turn reason on its head when you argue that the believer cannot be justified "freely by His grace" unless he does "works" of one kind or another.

I can't understand how you can say this if you were paying attention to what I said.

Butch5
Mar 7th 2009, 03:45 AM
JerryShugart---Butch, your so-called exegesis of these verses is not an exegesis at all. For instance, let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The Greek word echo is translated "has" in this verse is in the present tense. In other words, the Lord Jesus tells those who are believing that they have eternal life at the very time they are believing. This is so simple but for some reason it is above your ability to understand. You say:
You just deny the obvious. Anyone reading what the Lord Jesus said knows that he did not tell anyone that those who are believing will have everlasting life at the resurrection.

Here we go again, Jerry, In light of what you have said here, please reconcile this with the passages that I gave you.


Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Please go to Scripture and explain why Jesus would give to eat from the tree of life, to someone who already has eternal life. Please reconcile this with your understanding that we already possess eternal life.

Titus 1:1-2 ( KJV ) 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Please explain to me from Scripture why Paul is in hope of eternal life. Please reconcile this with your understanding of the above passages.

Romans 2:5-8 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Why does Paul say that those who obey the truth, are seeking eternal life? Please reconcile this with the passages you quoted.

1 Timothy 6:12 ( KJV ) 12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Paul tells Timothy to lay hold of eternal life, why would that be? can you please reconcile this also with the passages you quoted?

1 Timothy 6:18-19 ( KJV ) 18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Paul says they are laying up in store, a good foundation against the time to come, that the "may" "lay hold of " eternal life. When does Paul say they may lay hold of it? In the time to come. Please reconcile this with the passages you quoted.


1 John 2:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Why do you suppose that John would say that God has given the promise of eternal life to someone who already has eternal life? Please reconcile this verse also with the passages that you quoted. As John writes this he give a condition, what is it? If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you. If it doesn't remain in you then you don't have the promise.

Now lets look at the verse that you continuously post,

1 John 5:10-12 ( KJV ) 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Notice where this verse falls in the book as compared to 1 John 2:25, it comes afterward. John tells us upfront that what we have, is the promise of eternal life, that is clear in 2:25, so, when John says in 5:11, we have eternal life, it must be understood in the context that he has already established. That context would be that we have the promise of eternal life.




Let us look at the following verse:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).

Here the Greek word didomi is translated "give" is in the "present" tense. But you deny that anyone receives eternal life until the resurrection:

Yes, Jesus gives them eternal life and he gives us eternal life, also in the present tense. You are applying the present tense to eternal life instead of Jesus.



JerryShugart---How do you expect anyone to take you seriously, Butch?
It is obvious that you put more faith in your preconceived notions than you do in what the Scriptures actually say. If anyone is going to believe you then they must believe that you know more about "eternal life" than did the Apostle Paul or the Lord Jesus Himself!


You seem to be the only one having trouble understanding my argument. It's one thing to disagree, but you don't even seem to understand it.




JerryShugart--- And you certainly understand very little about the Christian's wonderful inheritance, the "blessed hope." The Greek word translated "hope" means "expectation of good" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So here Peter is speaking of the Christian's expectation of a "hope" which is in regard to an "inheritance":

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).

To this you say:
Quote:
Where does Peter say this inheritance it the resurrected body?

The Apostle Paul refers to the resurrected body as a Christian's inheritance:

Wait a minute, you were just talking about Peter, do you have to quote Paul to tell me what Peter meant???



JerryShugart---"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" (Eph.1:13-14).

Here Paul is saying that the Spirit is the earnest of our "inheritance" until the redemption of that inheritance, which is in regard to a "purchased possession."

Then later in the same epistle Paul writes:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Eph.4:30).

The Holy Spirit is the earnest of the Christian's "inheritance," and the Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the "day of redemption." That day is when the "redemption of the purchased possession" will occur. And that is in regard to the "redemption of our body":

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).

So Paul refers to the resurrection of the body as the Christian's inheritance.

You might want to study what the inheritance is. However, as usual you have tried to side track the issue again. I will repeat my statement from last time. Paul is not speaking about the blessed hope, he say that he is in hope of eternal life. He is not calling anything a blessed hope, he is merely saying that he is in hope of eternal life. However, because you cannot reconcile this verse you have gone on a scavenger hunt in search of the word hope throughout the Scriptures and tried to turn the focus from a simple statement that Paul made, into a discussion of the blessed hope. Let me sat it again, Paul is not speaking of the blessed hope in that verse.

Also you have not yet shown me how the Scriptures you quoted in your last post reconcile with your position,

Butch5
Mar 7th 2009, 03:46 AM
No, BroRog, Butch did not give any evidence that the verses which nhe quoted in regard to "forgiveness of sins" has anything to do with receiving salvation. The following words are written to Christians and they are not in regard to salvation:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

Do you think that the "forgiveness of sins" referred to here are in regard to gaining salvation?

In His grace,
Jerry

So then, how does one enter the kingdom with unforgiven sin???

Butch5
Mar 7th 2009, 03:52 AM
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Ephesians 5:29,30)

Okay, someone explain to me using Scripture how we can lose our salvation, when we are a part of Him! We are members of His body.

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13)

If we stop believing, He will be faithful, because He CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.

We're part of Him, and He's stuck with us... ;)

It says he cannot deny Himself, it doesn't say he cannot deny anyone else. He must be true to Himself, what did He say, whosoever believes. If He saved unbelievers he would be denying Himself.

The promise of salvation is only for the one who believes, if a person stops believing, then the will not be saved

Butch5
Mar 7th 2009, 03:53 AM
BroRog,

The Phippian jailer asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved. Here is their answer:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31).

There it is! Believe and nothing else. Here are the Lord Jesus' own words:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

What about His words there do you not understand?

The following words are written to Christians and they are not in regard to salvation:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

Now please answer my question: "Do you think that the 'forgiveness of sins' referred to here are in regard to gaining salvation?"

In His grace,
Jerry


Believe what???

JerryShugart
Mar 7th 2009, 05:31 AM
I disagree.
You can argue all you want that the "works" spoken of in the third and fourth chapter of Romans is in regard to the ordinances of the whole Jewish law but that helps you none when Paul speaks of "works" in regard to Abraham and those of the uncircumcision.

Abraham was never under the law so when the word "works" is used in regard to him it is impossible that the reference is to the ordinances or anything else of the law.

Here is what Paul said about Abraham's justification:

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro,4:2-4).

You do not even understand the simple principle by which the sinner is justified before God. If it takes a requirement of any "work" to receive the reward then the reward cannot be said to be of grace. That is because if someone has to do "works" to be saved then the reward cannot be described as being of "grace."

As I said before, you obviously do not understand the meaning of the words "gift" and "freely by grace." Only those who have received the Spirit can understand the things which are "freely" given to us of God:

"...the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.2:11-12).

Sorry to say it but you don't have a clue as to what things have been "freely" given to those who believe. You cannot understand that it is the sinner's "faith" that is counted for righteousness in the eyes of God:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:5-6).

Here Paul is speaking of those who "worketh not, but believeth."

But you say that the words "worketh not" only refers to the totality of the Mosaic Covenant. But why would Paul be using Abraham as an example since he was never under the Mosaic covenant?

You do not believe that "faith" is sufficent for justification before God even though Paul says that it is sufficient:

"...But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

You will not believe that faith alone is sufficient for salvation even though the Lord Jesus Himself says that those who "believe" has eternal life and will not come into judgment:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

In His grace,
Jerry

bagofseed
Mar 7th 2009, 05:42 AM
James 2:21-23
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

JerryShugart
Mar 7th 2009, 06:06 AM
Here we go again, Jerry
Yes, here we go again, Butch.

I quoted the following verse to prove that the Christian has already been given eternal life::

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

And then you said:

On the contrary, I showed you from Scripture how one does not have eternal life until the resurrection.
Now you want to edit what John said at 1 John 5:11. We are supposed to believe that when John tells the Christian that he has been given eternal life that he really meant to tell them that they only had the promise of eternal life:

Notice where this verse falls in the book as compared to 1 John 2:25, it comes afterward. John tells us upfront that what we have, is the promise of eternal life, that is clear in 2:25, so, when John says in 5:11, we have eternal life, it must be understood in the context that he has already established. That context would be that we have the promise of eternal life.
And I guess that when John told them that he wrote them so that they might know that they had eternal life that he really meant to tell them that they only had the promise of eternal life:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 Jn.5:13).

But you finally admit that here the Lord is saying those that who "believe" have eternal life as a present possession:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).

You said:

Yes, Jesus gives them eternal life and he gives us eternal life, also in the present tense.
And what does the Lord Jesus say about those to whom He has given eternal life?

He says that they "shall never perish."

But you deny His words and say that they might perish or they might not perish.

In His grace,
Jerry

bagofseed
Mar 7th 2009, 07:36 AM
Your are saved. (redemption)
Your are being saved. (sanctification)
You will be saved. (glorification)

All biblical and true statements.

Christ Jesus completed the work of salvation at the cross. complete at the cross. (spirit saved)
Our salvation is ongoing through sanctification. (mind / heart saved)
In hope we wait for His appearing for our salvation without regard to sin. (Body saved)

1 Thes 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is represented in three parts.
Man is created in Gods image, three parts.
Don't all three need saving?
Each aspect of God is seen in each aspect of salvation.

Glory to God, He does assume stuff!

bagofseed
Mar 7th 2009, 07:54 AM
In many places and times people know that to believe meant to stand up and die, or sell all you have, to hold nothing back.

Its not just about does God exist, but rather will you trust Him with your life?
(do you really believe in Him, is their no other hope for you?)
Test your self to be sure you are in the faith!

How do you test yourself?

BroRog
Mar 7th 2009, 05:14 PM
You can argue all you want that the "works" spoken of in the third and fourth chapter of Romans is in regard to the ordinances of the whole Jewish law but that helps you none when Paul speaks of "works" in regard to Abraham and those of the uncircumcision.

Abraham was never under the law so when the word "works" is used in regard to him it is impossible that the reference is to the ordinances or anything else of the law.

Here is what Paul said about Abraham's justification:

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro,4:2-4).

Perhaps you didn't know, Jerry, that circumcision is one of the many Jewish rites and rituals. Paul sets out to show that Abraham was saved before he was circumcised, in order to make his case for his view that God is saving Gentiles apart from circumcision. During his discourse, he cites Abraham and David, which are two of the great men of Hebrew culture and the Jewish experience. In this Jewish context, a phrase like "works of the law" is well understood to encompass, in a general way, all of the commandments, not just the Ten Commandments.


You do not even understand the simple principle by which the sinner is justified before God. If it takes a requirement of any "work" to receive the reward then the reward cannot be said to be of grace. That is because if someone has to do "works" to be saved then the reward cannot be described as being of "grace."

I am trying to be as clear as I can be in this regard. The talk is NOT about meritorious works. My comments are strictly focused on actions we take that demonstrate our faith. I hoped you might see the difference. We started with Jesus statement that God will not forgive our sins if we will not forgive the sins of others. I tried to explain his statement in terms of faith and how, according to James, faith is nothing without action.



Sorry to say it but you don't have a clue as to what things have been "freely" given to those who believe. You cannot understand that it is the sinner's "faith" that is counted for righteousness in the eyes of God:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:5-6).

Here Paul is speaking of those who "worketh not, but believeth."

I understand perfectly well that faith is accounted as righteousness and that salvation is given as an act of God's grace to those who believe. Our disagreement centers on what it means to believe. I don't know what you think "belief" is, but the Biblical view is that if a man is not willing to act on his beliefs, they aren't real beliefs.


But you say that the words "worketh not" only refers to the totality of the Mosaic Covenant. But why would Paul be using Abraham as an example since he was never under the Mosaic covenant?

Paul's draws an analogy between a man who works for wages, and a man who attempts to find justification in his religious practice. Just as a man trades his time for money and expects to get paid, the man who seeks to please God through is religious practice expects God to give him favor as what he is due. He did his religion; so God owes him something.

Nonetheless, when Jesus says that God will not forgive us if we don't forgive others, this picture does not fit Paul's analogy. Jesus isn't saying, "If you want to merit God's forgiveness, you need to give God something in return like forgiving others for instance." No, that is not his point. Jesus explains his meaning in a parable about a man who was unwilling to forgive the small debt of his fellow servant after the King forgave the very large debt of the first man. By analogy, Jesus is suggesting that the first man did not appreciate just how much he owed the king and how great a grace was bestowed on him. His unwillingness to forgive the debt of his fellow servant, indicated that the Kings forgiveness was something to be despised, contemptible, and worthless.

Do you see how our actions define our beliefs? This man believed that forgiveness was worthless, though he was happy to get it from the King. And when the King found out the man's true view of forgiveness, he withdrew it. Yes, the King gave the man a gift, freely, and graciously. But the man despised his gift and showed his contempt by having his fellow servant put in prison.


You do not believe that "faith" is sufficent for justification before God even though Paul says that it is sufficient:

"...But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


The issue is not whether faith is a sufficient condition for justification. The issue is whether faith is real if actions of faith do not follow.

Paul says, in Romans 10,

. . . if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved . . .

Confessing with the mouth is an action. Believing in your heart is not enough.

JerryShugart
Mar 7th 2009, 06:16 PM
I understand perfectly well that faith is accounted as righteousness and that salvation is given as an act of God's grace to those who believe. Our disagreement centers on what it means to believe. I don't know what you think "belief" is, but the Biblical view is that if a man is not willing to act on his beliefs, they aren't real beliefs.
Yes, this is the heart and soul of our disagreement.

You agree that a person's "faith" is accounted to him for righteousness. But you want to twist the meaning of "faith" to mean "faith" plus "works."

You say, "Our disagreement centers on what it means to believe."

The meaning that I place on the word "believe" is in accord with the meaning given for the Greek word that is translated "believe" in the NT: "to think to be true, to be persuaded of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

I can find no definition in either the Greek Lexicons or in any English dictionary of the word "believe" that has anything to do with "works."

The idea that the word "believe" can be construed to include "works" of any kind is nothing but a figment of your imagination. And the words here by Paul make it plain that the word "believe" does not include works:


"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:5-6).

You reject the concept that the Christian is saved by "grace" when you insist that no one can be saved apart from works. You still do not understand the words "gift" and "freely by grace."

Paul says, in Romans 10,

. . . if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved . . .

Confessing with the mouth is an action. Believing in your heart is not enough.
You did not quote the verses which follow:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Ro.10:10,13).

It only takes "believing" to be declared righteous before God. The "confession with the mouth" is in regard to physical deliverance. Verse 13 is a quote of the following verse:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered" (Joel 2:32).

You think that all you have to do to make the Scriptures fit your mistaken views is just change the meaning of the word "believe." But there are no reliabe sources, either lexicons or dictionaries, that supports your view that the word "believe" includes "works."

Where do you find any "works" here where Paul is defining the "faith" of Abraham?:

"Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness" (Ro.4:18-22).

Where are the "works" here that must be included in his "faith"?

In His grace,
Jerry

Butch5
Mar 7th 2009, 11:36 PM
As you do with the Scriptures, you have taken my quote out of context to try to prove I agree with you.

Jerry Please answer the questions,

In light of what you have said here, please reconcile this with the passages that I gave you.


Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Please go to Scripture and explain why Jesus would give to eat from the tree of life, to someone who already has eternal life. Please reconcile this with your understanding that we already possess eternal life.

Titus 1:1-2 ( KJV ) 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Please explain to me from Scripture why Paul is in hope of eternal life. Please reconcile this with your understanding of the above passages.

Romans 2:5-8 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Why does Paul say that those who obey the truth, are seeking eternal life? Please reconcile this with the passages you quoted.

1 Timothy 6:12 ( KJV ) 12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Paul tells Timothy to lay hold of eternal life, why would that be? can you please reconcile this also with the passages you quoted?

1 Timothy 6:18-19 ( KJV ) 18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Paul says they are laying up in store, a good foundation against the time to come, that the "may" "lay hold of " eternal life. When does Paul say they may lay hold of it? In the time to come. Please reconcile this with the passages you quoted.


1 John 2:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Why do you suppose that John would say that God has given the promise of eternal life to someone who already has eternal life? Please reconcile this verse also with the passages that you quoted. As John writes this he give a condition, what is it? If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you. If it doesn't remain in you then you don't have the promise.

Now lets look at the verse that you continuously post,

1 John 5:10-12 ( KJV ) 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Notice where this verse falls in the book as compared to 1 John 2:25, it comes afterward. John tells us upfront that what we have, is the promise of eternal life, that is clear in 2:25, so, when John says in 5:11, we have eternal life, it must be understood in the context that he has already established. That context would be that we have the promise of eternal life.

copper25
Mar 8th 2009, 12:35 AM
do you realize that because of man's wicked heart and his wicked nature, even given the choice, the option to come to repentance on his own, that he would not?

Genesis 6:5) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21) And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

The will of a man is always bonded to his nature and by nature man hates the things of God

1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him

nor does he come to them, nor seek them

Romans 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

So it is ONLY of God's divine working in a man that he will ever come to repentance

2 Timothy 2:25)In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

It is God that even calls one to repentance, so it had nothing to do with the man choosing God, because of his nature he can't, but it is all based on who God elects and who he CHOOSES.

Romans 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Therefore, all those that fall away and never come back are not really his, but are the goats, they that walk in darkness, they that are the children of disobedience.

Watchmen
Mar 8th 2009, 12:40 AM
These next groups of scripture will show us what Jesus Himself had to say to the church in Asia. You will see clearly that he tells many to repent. People in these churches were all at one time saved, yet Jesus tells them to repent or else as you will see.



Revelation 2:1-5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:1-5
Revelation 2:1-5
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven candle sticks;
2 I know thy works and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou can not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them that say they are apostles, and are not and found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name sake thou hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
If anyone need not to repent and to be secure about their salvation it seems to be these people, yet they were doing and saying all the right things. Jesus said their hearts were not right before God and told them they needed to repent. Also notice that at one time their hearts were right because he said ''you left your first love'' not that you had never loved Him. So they had grown cold towards God after once loving Him and as Jesus clearly stated they were in need of repentance ''or else''
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come against you quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
This was written to a church, the church at Pergamos. Jesus is returning at the end of the Tribulation to reward the righteous and destroy the wicked. Those in the church that refuse to repent will be included with the wicked unless they repent, whether they 'believe themselves to be ''Christians'' or not.
Revelation 3:1-5
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works, that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.
Let look at this passage one verse at a time,
Verse 1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works , that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
This verse reminds me more of the ''American'' church than any in Revelation. Many would argue that the lukewarm church in Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22 is more representative of the American church, but I believe the church today is more than lukewarm. In many cases, I believe the church has become completely dead. We have a name that lives ''Jesus Christ'' but we ourselves are spiritually dead, having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. We say we are alive in God but we are dead in our sins.
Verse 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
I believe the message in this verse is that our relationship to God is not self-sustainable but requires work on our part to continue to strengthen ourselves in Him. If not it will fade away, just like any other relationship.
Verse 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jesus tells them unless they repent he will come against them as a thief and we see in 1st Thessalonians 5:2-4 that Jesus will not come against the righteous as a thief but only the unbelieving and the wicked.
1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Jesus is speaking to the church, to believers, yet He tells them to repent or else He will come against them. This is clear that the OSAS doctrine is false. They were at one time right before God, yet unless they repent they would forfeit their right standing in his eyes.
Verse 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
Just like in America, although most in the church are not truly saved. There were a few that did obey God and refrained from sin not defiling their garment. It's those people and those alone that will walk with Jesus in white garment, not the entire church.
Verse 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Only those that overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. Two points to be made here: #1 Jesus would not have needed to tell the overcomers that their names would not be blotted out if it were impossible for anyone to ever have their names blotted out of the book of life. #2. Those who do not overcome will indeed have their names blotted out, and Jesus will not confess your name before the Father.


Remember, Jesus was speaking to the church, people that had once been saved, and probably believed themselves to still be. But they had fallen short of their call and had knowingly or unknowingly fallen away from God. Jesus tells them they were in need of repentance and would endure the judgments of the wicked unless they repented.
Today's church, especially in America, is in serious need of repentance. They twist scripture to teach dangerous false doctrines such as Eternal Security and many others. They also use scripture to make excuses for their sin. The church may turn a blind eye to your sin but God will not.




Why would Jesus tell them to repent or else if they were eternally secure?

JerryShugart
Mar 8th 2009, 12:45 AM
As you do with the Scriptures, you have taken my quote out of context to try to prove I agree with you.
No, Butch, I haven't taken the quotes of your words out of context. You said over and over that no one has eternal life until the resurrection.

But when cornered you admit that Christians have eternal life.

Then you quote the same old verses over again to try to prove that no one will have eternal life until the resurrection.

I must say that I have never seen anyone on any Bible forum who is as confused as you are. The sad thing is that you have no desire at all to understand what the Scriptures actually say due to the fact that you have totally bought into the "traditions" invented by men.

As that tradition has no answer for the Lord Jesus' words here you also have no answer:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).

The Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. But you say that they can.

You seem to care little if your views require a complete denial of the Lord Jesus' words. You seem to be quite content as long as you can continue to cling to the traditions invented by men.

In His grace,
Jerry

Watchmen
Mar 8th 2009, 01:15 AM
These next groups of scripture will show us what Jesus Himself had to say to the church in Asia. You will see clearly that he tells many to repent. People in these churches were all at one time saved, yet Jesus tells them to repent or else as you will see.



Revelation 2:1-5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:1-5
Revelation 2:1-5
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven candle sticks;
2 I know thy works and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou can not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them that say they are apostles, and are not and found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name sake thou hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
If anyone need not to repent and to be secure about their salvation it seems to be these people, yet they were doing and saying all the right things. Jesus said their hearts were not right before God and told them they needed to repent. Also notice that at one time their hearts were right because he said ''you left your first love'' not that you had never loved Him. So they had grown cold towards God after once loving Him and as Jesus clearly stated they were in need of repentance ''or else''
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come against you quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
This was written to a church, the church at Pergamos. Jesus is returning at the end of the Tribulation to reward the righteous and destroy the wicked. Those in the church that refuse to repent will be included with the wicked unless they repent, whether they 'believe themselves to be ''Christians'' or not.
Revelation 3:1-5
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works, that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.
Let look at this passage one verse at a time,
Verse 1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works , that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
This verse reminds me more of the ''American'' church than any in Revelation. Many would argue that the lukewarm church in Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22 is more representative of the American church, but I believe the church today is more than lukewarm. In many cases, I believe the church has become completely dead. We have a name that lives ''Jesus Christ'' but we ourselves are spiritually dead, having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. We say we are alive in God but we are dead in our sins.
Verse 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
I believe the message in this verse is that our relationship to God is not self-sustainable but requires work on our part to continue to strengthen ourselves in Him. If not it will fade away, just like any other relationship.
Verse 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jesus tells them unless they repent he will come against them as a thief and we see in 1st Thessalonians 5:2-4 that Jesus will not come against the righteous as a thief but only the unbelieving and the wicked.
1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Jesus is speaking to the church, to believers, yet He tells them to repent or else He will come against them. This is clear that the OSAS doctrine is false. They were at one time right before God, yet unless they repent they would forfeit their right standing in his eyes.
Verse 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
Just like in America, although most in the church are not truly saved. There were a few that did obey God and refrained from sin not defiling their garment. It's those people and those alone that will walk with Jesus in white garment, not the entire church.
Verse 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Only those that overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. Two points to be made here: #1 Jesus would not have needed to tell the overcomers that their names would not be blotted out if it were impossible for anyone to ever have their names blotted out of the book of life. #2. Those who do not overcome will indeed have their names blotted out, and Jesus will not confess your name before the Father.


Remember, Jesus was speaking to the church, people that had once been saved, and probably believed themselves to still be. But they had fallen short of their call and had knowingly or unknowingly fallen away from God. Jesus tells them they were in need of repentance and would endure the judgments of the wicked unless they repented.
Today's church, especially in America, is in serious need of repentance. They twist scripture to teach dangerous false doctrines such as Eternal Security and many others. They also use scripture to make excuses for their sin. The church may turn a blind eye to your sin but God will not.




Why would Jesus tell them to repent or else if they were eternally secure?Sooooooo???? Why would Jesus tell them to repent or else if they were eternally secure?

JerryShugart
Mar 8th 2009, 02:00 AM
Sooooooo???? Why would Jesus tell them to repent or else if they were eternally secure?
The churches which the Lord Jesus addressed were made up of both "tares" and "wheat" (Mt.13:30), both saved and unsaved.

In His grace,
Jerry

Walstib
Mar 8th 2009, 03:22 AM
I thought we could start a new tradition here and after every 12 pages in an OSAS thread we could have an intermission of sorts.

We could make smores and hot chocolate sit in a circle and sing hymns….

Well at least we could take a step back and look at our intentions and motives with posting here. Make sure to stay away from the one liners and personal accusations making every attempt to worthily magnify God’s holy name with our words.

I like the sing along idea though.... ;)

May God grant us peace and understanding as together we seek Him as spiritual family.

shepherdsword
Mar 8th 2009, 03:25 AM
Hey Walstib, long time no see. Been fishing?;)

Watchmen
Mar 8th 2009, 04:27 AM
The churches which the Lord Jesus addressed were made up of both "tares" and "wheat" (Mt.13:30), both saved and unsaved.

In His grace,
JerryGood try...I guess some people will say anything to continue to keep their false beliefs?

Walstib
Mar 8th 2009, 06:08 AM
shepherdsword!
A fish story interlude may do just fine. :D I was out today moving the fish hut as it was stuck in the ice a bit. My friend and his son were with me and they got three little perch. But you should see the size of the whitefish another friend brought me a few days ago he caught a mile or so from my place...:o I'll see if I can get a pic into the thread on the porch the next few days.



And Watchmen ..... that is the kind of one liner and personal comment I was hoping we could perge from this thread please. A biblical rebuttal lovingly put together is much more helpful. :)

Peace,
Joe

Butch5
Mar 8th 2009, 09:05 PM
No, Butch, I haven't taken the quotes of your words out of context. You said over and over that no one has eternal life until the resurrection.

But when cornered you admit that Christians have eternal life.

Then you quote the same old verses over again to try to prove that no one will have eternal life until the resurrection.

I must say that I have never seen anyone on any Bible forum who is as confused as you are. The sad thing is that you have no desire at all to understand what the Scriptures actually say due to the fact that you have totally bought into the "traditions" invented by men.

As that tradition has no answer for the Lord Jesus' words here you also have no answer:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).

The Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. But you say that they can.

You seem to care little if your views require a complete denial of the Lord Jesus' words. You seem to be quite content as long as you can continue to cling to the traditions invented by men.

In His grace,
Jerry

That's pretty funny. My friend you are one who cannot reconcile the Scriptures. I have no with any of the Scriptures. However, when I ask you about something Paul say, you give me an answer from Peter. Of every verse I've posted, I don't think you've answered one question with the context that the verse was written in. You just jump all over trying to find some other meaning. You have not even reconciled John's own statements, prior to say they have eternal life, John himself says, they have the promise of eternal. However, when I questioned you on this you just deflect the question. If I am as confused as you claim you should have been able to to show where I am wrong, yet you just continue to post the same statement over and over, as if by repeating it, it will somehow be true. So, please reconcile John's own statement, and once again please answer the questions.

In light of what you have said here, please reconcile this with the passages that I gave you.


Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Please go to Scripture and explain why Jesus would give to eat from the tree of life, to someone who already has eternal life. Please reconcile this with your understanding that we already possess eternal life.

Titus 1:1-2 ( KJV ) 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Please explain to me from Scripture why Paul is in hope of eternal life. Please reconcile this with your understanding of the above passages.

Romans 2:5-8 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Why does Paul say that those who obey the truth, are seeking eternal life? Please reconcile this with the passages you quoted.

1 Timothy 6:12 ( KJV ) 12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Paul tells Timothy to lay hold of eternal life, why would that be? can you please reconcile this also with the passages you quoted?

1 Timothy 6:18-19 ( KJV ) 18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Paul says they are laying up in store, a good foundation against the time to come, that the "may" "lay hold of " eternal life. When does Paul say they may lay hold of it? In the time to come. Please reconcile this with the passages you quoted.


1 John 2:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Why do you suppose that John would say that God has given the promise of eternal life to someone who already has eternal life? Please reconcile this verse also with the passages that you quoted. As John writes this he give a condition, what is it? If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you. If it doesn't remain in you then you don't have the promise.

Now lets look at the verse that you continuously post,

1 John 5:10-12 ( KJV ) 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Notice where this verse falls in the book as compared to 1 John 2:25, it comes afterward. John tells us upfront that what we have, is the promise of eternal life, that is clear in 2:25, so, when John says in 5:11, we have eternal life, it must be understood in the context that he has already established. That context would be that we have the promise of eternal life.

fuzzi
Mar 8th 2009, 09:08 PM
I thought we could start a new tradition here and after every 12 pages in an OSAS thread we could have an intermission of sorts.

We could make smores and hot chocolate sit in a circle and sing hymns….

Well at least we could take a step back and look at our intentions and motives with posting here. Make sure to stay away from the one liners and personal accusations making every attempt to worthily magnify God’s holy name with our words.

I like the sing along idea though.... ;)
As long as it isn't Kum Bah Yah... :B

:D

shepherdsword
Mar 9th 2009, 05:59 AM
There are some sincere Christians on this forum who say that one can lose their salvation. They quote verses which they think support their views. However, when examining this issue we should go to the "best evidence" available in the Scriptures, verses that acually speak of "eternal life."

Here we see that the Apostle John tells the Christian that they have already been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

Notice that this life is in his Son. As long as you remain in the Son you will participate in this eternal life.


The following words from the lips of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish":

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

How can anyone argue that those who have already been given "eternal life" can somehow lose their salvation since the Lord Jesus Himself said that "they shall never perish"?Because you have taken the verses out of context. Here is the preceding verse that qualifies his statement:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

First of all..they hear his voice. Secondly He knows them. Thirdly they follow him. This is the same error that all of your position make. You take the verses that appear to support your position out of context.In reality you don't have single verse to back your interpretation.


I will address any verses that anyone might quote in an effort to prove that the Christian does not enjoy eternal security. But they must address these verses from the pen of the Apostle John.Your arrogance would be amusing if it wasn't so sad. Many of us have spent years studying the scriptures in the original languages. Do you think you know more than all of us?


In His grace,
JerryIt's good to be in grace. Grace is an enabling power that gives us the ability to fulfill the will of God. However,it is reserved for the humble.God resists the proud.

grit
Apr 8th 2009, 05:35 PM
I thought we could start a new tradition here and after every 12 pages in an OSAS thread we could have an intermission of sorts.

We could make smores and hot chocolate sit in a circle and sing hymns….

Well at least we could take a step back and look at our intentions and motives with posting here. Make sure to stay away from the one liners and personal accusations making every attempt to worthily magnify God’s holy name with our words.

I like the sing along idea though.... ;)

May God grant us peace and understanding as together we seek Him as spiritual family.

As long as it isn't Kum Bah Yah... :B

:D
__________________
I'm not really a big fan, but somehow I think Gummi Bears would be the more appropriate snack choice, and I'm thinking maybe that grape trampling hymn (and I'm a Southener)? His truth is marching on... :hug:

Bandit
Apr 8th 2009, 09:29 PM
Eternal Security: True or False?


For the one who continues to believe - true; for the one who falls away - false.

THOM
Apr 9th 2009, 02:36 AM
The eternal life that John speaks of is in Christ, if one is no longer in Christ, one no longer has this eternal life.

Butch, please think about the following before you react. And then our FATHER will cause you to RESPOND.

Is JESUS CHRIST a chump Savior? Do you really believe that JESUS CHRIST is NOT able to keep those who HE HAS REALLY Saved? Are you holding HIS hand, or is HE Holding your hand?

A person who is Truly Saved is IN CHRIST. . .now if Satan couldn't get CHRIST out of CHRIST, how can Satan get you out of CHRIST?

CHRIST IS IN THE FATHER; Is THE FATHER a chump GOD?

Here's what I believe you believe Butch, and please, please, please correct me if I'm mistaken. . .you believe that our Salvation rest and resides in us (the saved individual), right?

The very fact that you cannot lose your Salvation is seen in the fact that you didn't provide your Salvation in the first place. . .think about that for a moment.

Who is it that receives Mercy, the guilty or the innocent?



If you tell HIM you're guilty, HE'll stop being your JUDGE and become your SAVIOR. . .and if, as JUDGE, HE can allow you (or "send you to") Hell, how much more as SAVIOR can HE Guarantee your "Once saved, always saved"?

bagofseed
Apr 9th 2009, 10:40 AM
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

Butch5
Apr 9th 2009, 02:19 PM
Butch, please think about the following before you react. And then our FATHER will cause you to RESPOND.

Is JESUS CHRIST a chump Savior? Do you really believe that JESUS CHRIST is NOT able to keep those who HE HAS REALLY Saved? Are you holding HIS hand, or is HE Holding your hand?

A person who is Truly Saved is IN CHRIST. . .now if Satan couldn't get CHRIST out of CHRIST, how can Satan get you out of CHRIST?

CHRIST IS IN THE FATHER; Is THE FATHER a chump GOD?

Here's what I believe you believe Butch, and please, please, please correct me if I'm mistaken. . .you believe that our Salvation rest and resides in us (the saved individual), right?

The very fact that you cannot lose your Salvation is seen in the fact that you didn't provide your Salvation in the first place. . .think about that for a moment.

Who is it that receives Mercy, the guilty or the innocent?




If you tell HIM you're guilty, HE'll stop being your JUDGE and become your SAVIOR. . .and if, as JUDGE, HE can allow you (or "send you to") Hell, how much more as SAVIOR can HE Guarantee your "Once saved, always saved"?






Hi Thom,

First, let me remove one element from the equation. There is no question as to whether or not God is able to save, He is able. So, the question then becomes who will he save? Will He save everyone? I believe Scripture teaches against this idea. The Scriptures teach that the one who "is believing" has the promise of being saved. That is the one who is in the condition of present belief. Having said that, the Scriptures are full of examples of those who turned away from God, they are full of warnings against turning away from God. If it is not possible to turn from God, how did those in the examples turn, and why the multitude of warnings against turning away from God? I don't believe salvation is of man, it is of God, it is God who saves. However, it is man who decides if he will obey God, if one rejects God, he is no longer in a state of present belief, and therefore the promise is no longer his.

THOM
Apr 9th 2009, 02:44 PM
Hi Thom,

First, let me remove one element from the equation. There is no question as to whether or not God is able to save, He is able. So, the question then becomes who will he save? Will He save everyone? I believe Scripture teaches against this idea. The Scriptures teach that the one who "is believing" has the promise of being saved. That is the one who is in the condition of present belief. Having said that, the Scriptures are full of examples of those who turned away from God, they are full of warnings against turning away from God. If it is not possible to turn from God, how did those in the examples turn, and why the multitude of warnings against turning away from God? I don't believe salvation is of man, it is of God, it is God who saves. However, it is man who decides if he will obey God, if one rejects God, he is no longer in a state of present belief, and therefore the promise is no longer his.


Hi Butch, thanks for your answer. I wanted to respond to your answer just before I leave for the afternoon.

When a person is Saved, he/she become a Child of GOD; Children don't, necessarily, save themselves; but that I mean that it is the Parents job/responsibility to see after the welfare of the Child. . .REGARDLESS. . .of whether that child is obedient or disobedient.

But now I want you to notice something I find very interesting about any child of Parents: There is absolutely positively nothing that the Child can do, to stop be his/her parents' child. . .NOTHING. The child can rebel, disobey, murder, steal, covet, fornicate, have sex with an animal, commit idolatry, etc., BUT. . .that child is still his/her Parents Child.

A word of caution: Getting saved, and then indulging in those kinds of activities that I just mentioned, can and will cause GOD to take you out (just ask "Ananias" and "Sapphira"), after immense suffering, but you're still HIS Child (And GOD never sent any of HIS "children" to Hell!). If you decide to sleep and eat with pigs, you're still HIS Child.

Question: The Prodigal son (the one that left home), when, if ever, did he stop being his Father's son?

Bless you!!!

Butch5
Apr 9th 2009, 03:02 PM
Hi Butch, thanks for your answer. I wanted to respond to your answer just before I leave for the afternoon.

When a person is Saved, he/she become a Child of GOD; Children don't, necessarily, save themselves; but that I mean that it is the Parents job/responsibility to see after the welfare of the Child. . .REGARDLESS. . .of whether that child is obedient or disobedient.

But now I want you to notice something I find very interesting about any child of Parents: There is absolutely positively nothing that the Child can do, to stop be his/her parents' child. . .NOTHING. The child can rebel, disobey, murder, steal, covet, fornicate, have sex with an animal, commit idolatry, etc., BUT. . .that child is still his/her Parents Child.

A word of caution: Getting saved, and then indulging in those kinds of activities that I just mentioned, can and will cause GOD to take you out (just ask "Ananias" and "Sapphira"), after immense suffering, but you're still HIS Child (And GOD never sent any of HIS "children" to Hell!). If you decide to sleep and eat with pigs, you're still HIS Child.

Question: The Prodigal son (the one that left home), when, if ever, did he stop being his Father's son?

Bless you!!!

Hi Thom,

I understand what you are saying, however, you have not used any Scripture. Again, the Scriptures make it clear, the promise is "only" to the one who "is believing". Why would Jesus warn Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest of the 12 to be careful they did not end up in hell, if it were not possible that they could do so? If anyone was saved, surely the apostles were, yet Jesus warned them to be careful they did not end up in hell.

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 01:17 AM
Hi Thom,

I understand what you are saying, however, you have not used any Scripture. Again, the Scriptures make it clear, the promise is "only" to the one who "is believing". Why would Jesus warn Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest of the 12 to be careful they did not end up in hell, if it were not possible that they could do so? If anyone was saved, surely the apostles were, yet Jesus warned them to be careful they did not end up in hell.

Hey Brother!

Sure I did Butch (use Scripture); I just didn't quote each and every verse. Look at, "Ananias" and "Sapphira", in Acts 5, Peter asked them ("Ananias" first), "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"

Note: you can only "lie" to "the Holy Ghost" if you're saved. . .its one of the ways that we "grieve the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 4:30)".

And btw, when a believer (the Saved) Physically dies, it is said of that person that they "gave up the ghost (Gen. 25:8; Acts 5:5)", in both the Old and New Testament, and that they "slept with his fathers (1Kings 2:10;11:43;14:20,31 etc.)", in the Old Testament.

Now then, where is this Scripture you allude to about "Why would Jesus warn Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest of the 12 to be careful they did not end up in hell, if it were not possible that they could do so?"??? I'd really like to address that, if you could be a little bit more specific. I think I know what you're referring to, with your use of the term, "if possible", but I want to be certain. Let me know okay?
And did you see my question, The Prodigal son (the one that left home), when, if ever, did he stop being his Father's son?
Its from Luke 15:11-32, specifically verses 12-24.

fuzzi
Apr 10th 2009, 01:20 AM
I understand what you are saying, however, you have not used any Scripture.
Okay, then I will. :)


When a person is Saved, he/she become a Child of GOD; Children don't, necessarily, save themselves; but that I mean that it is the Parents job/responsibility to see after the welfare of the Child. . .REGARDLESS. . .of whether that child is obedient or disobedient.
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:16,17)

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." (Galatians 4:4-7)

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:26)


But now I want you to notice something I find very interesting about any child of Parents: There is absolutely positively nothing that the Child can do, to stop be his/her parents' child. . .NOTHING. The child can rebel, disobey, murder, steal, covet, fornicate, have sex with an animal, commit idolatry, etc., BUT. . .that child is still his/her Parents Child.
Once God's child, always God's child.

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:1,2)

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:5-14)

We are adopted by Christ, and have obtained an inheritance, sealed until He redeems us, His purchased possession.

The Lord has put a down payment on us ('earnest') until we are redeemed.


A word of caution: Getting saved, and then indulging in those kinds of activities that I just mentioned, can and will cause GOD to take you out (just ask "Ananias" and "Sapphira"), after immense suffering, but you're still HIS Child (And GOD never sent any of HIS "children" to Hell!). If you decide to sleep and eat with pigs, you're still HIS Child.
Amen. "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:5-8)

He doesn't 'unadopt' us if we do wrong, He chastens us, gives us grief, and sometimes we listen and turn back to him, as the prodigal son did.


Question: The Prodigal son (the one that left home), when, if ever, did he stop being his Father's son?
He didn't. He squandered his inheritance, but he was still his father's son.

We might mess up, and lose our rewards, but we still are God's children, and will be with Him forever.

We couldn't lose our salvation if we wanted to: we are no longer our own, we've been bought by Christ's blood, saved and sealed:

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:19,20)

Good post, Thom.

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 02:08 AM
Okay, then I will. :)


"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:16,17)

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." (Galatians 4:4-7)

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:26)


Once God's child, always God's child.

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:1,2)

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:5-14)

We are adopted by Christ, and have obtained an inheritance, sealed until He redeems us, His purchased possession.

The Lord has put a down payment on us ('earnest') until we are redeemed.


Amen. "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:5-8)

He doesn't 'unadopt' us if we do wrong, He chastens us, gives us grief, and sometimes we listen and turn back to him, as the prodigal son did.


He didn't. He squandered his inheritance, but he was still his father's son.

We might mess up, and lose our rewards, but we still are God's children, and will be with Him forever.

We couldn't lose our salvation if we wanted to: we are no longer our own, we've been bought by Christ's blood, saved and sealed:

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:19,20)

Good post, Thom.

Thanks Fuzzi; but your response will Preach ANYDAY!!!:D

Excellent Scripture references!!! To you, Especially, STAY and, ". . .be strong in THE LORD, and in THE POWER of HIS MIGHT... (Ephesians 6)"

Butch5
Apr 10th 2009, 02:27 AM
Thom---Sure I did Butch (use Scripture); I just didn't quote each and every verse. Look at, "Ananias" and "Sapphira", in Acts 5, Peter asked them ("Ananias" first), "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"

Note: you can only "lie" to "the Holy Ghost" if you're saved. . .its one of the ways that we "grieve the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 4:30)".

And btw, when a believer (the Saved) Physically dies, it is said of that person that they "gave up the ghost (Gen. 25:8; Acts 5:5)", in both the Old and New Testament, and that they "slept with his fathers (1Kings 2:10;11:43;14:20,31 etc.)", in the Old Testament.


I agree here, however, how do you know that they saved at the judgment??? They may have been saved at some point, I'll give you that, however, so was Judas, will he also be saved??? I believe that Ananias and Sapphira will be lost


Thom---Now then, where is this Scripture you allude to about "Why would Jesus warn Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest of the 12 to be careful they did not end up in hell, if it were not possible that they could do so?"??? I'd really like to address that, if you could be a little bit more specific. I think I know what you're referring to, with your use of the term, "if possible", but I want to be certain. Let me know okay?


Mark 9:30-31 ( KJV )
And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 9:41-48 ( KJV )
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Thom---And did you see my question, The Prodigal son (the one that left home), when, if ever, did he stop being his Father's son?
Its from Luke 15:11-32, specifically verses 12-24.

Yes, I saw your question. No, the son does not stop being the fathers child, however that does not guarantee that the father will accept him again. The question is, if hte son never returned would he have been saved? As I said, Jesus tells us the promise is for the one who "Is believing" no matter what you believe, this issue must be dealt with.

Butch5
Apr 10th 2009, 02:32 AM
Okay, then I will. :)


"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:16,17)

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." (Galatians 4:4-7)

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:26)


Once God's child, always God's child.

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:1,2)

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:5-14)

We are adopted by Christ, and have obtained an inheritance, sealed until He redeems us, His purchased possession.

The Lord has put a down payment on us ('earnest') until we are redeemed.


Amen. "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:5-8)

He doesn't 'unadopt' us if we do wrong, He chastens us, gives us grief, and sometimes we listen and turn back to him, as the prodigal son did.


He didn't. He squandered his inheritance, but he was still his father's son.

We might mess up, and lose our rewards, but we still are God's children, and will be with Him forever.

We couldn't lose our salvation if we wanted to: we are no longer our own, we've been bought by Christ's blood, saved and sealed:

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:19,20)

Good post, Thom.

Hi Fuzzi,

I am not ignoring you, however I am not going to respond to these Scriptures as we have been over this before. None of these Scriptures state that a person cannot turn away from God.

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 03:47 AM
Hi Fuzzi,

I am not ignoring you, however I am not going to respond to these Scriptures as we have been over this before. None of these Scriptures state that a person cannot turn away from God.

Butch, if all you're saying is that a person can (and does) turn away from GOD, then you're 100% correct. Our conversation to you has been, regardless of what you believe, you CANNOT LOSE GOD'S SALVATION TO and UPON you. . .no matter which way you "turn".

Years ago, when I was still a Baby IN CHRIST, some well meaning (supposed 'holy ghost filled-tongue talking') people told me that, unless I spoke in "tongues", then I wasn't filled with THE HOLY GHOST. . .and probably "NOT SAVED",. . .or had 'LOST my SALVATION'.

I didn't know this to be so or not, so I made up some tongue talking words (like, "papa son:idea:"), because I wanted to have everything that GOD (according to them) wanted me to have.

And then it dawned on me (via THE HOLY SPIRIT), "you've yet to learn to Praise and Worship GOD in your native language, English, why should GOD allow you to Praise and Worship HIM in a language foreign to your p--- ant understanding?. . .and anybody else that may hear that gibberish?"

"God is not the author of confusion."

Butch5
Apr 10th 2009, 03:53 AM
Butch, if all you're saying is that a person can (and does) turn away from GOD, then you're 100% correct. Our conversation to you has been, regardless of what you believe, you CANNOT LOSE GOD'S SALVATION TO and UPON you. . .no matter which way you "turn".

Years ago, when I was still a Baby IN CHRIST, some well meaning (supposed 'holy ghost filled-tongue talking') people told me that, unless I spoke in "tongues", then I wasn't filled with THE HOLY GHOST. . .and probably "NOT SAVED",. . .or had 'LOST my SALVATION'.

I didn't know this to be so or not, so I made up some tongue talking words (like, "papa son:idea:"), because I wanted to have everything that GOD (according to them) wanted me to have.

And then it dawned on me (via THE HOLY SPIRIT), "you've yet to learn to Praise and Worship GOD in your native language, English, why should GOD allow you to Praise and Worship HIM in a language foreign to your p--- ant understanding?. . .and anybody else that may hear that gibberish?"

"God is not the author of confusion."

Hi Thom,

That is what I am saying. A person can turn away from God, I believe when this is done salvation is lost. I believe the Scriptures are clear on this issue. There is nothing in Scripture that states a person cannot turn away from God, even what many term a "true believer". If one rejects God then they are no longer a believer. Another thing is that there is no Scripture that states one cannot lose salvation, in all of the verses that are used for support, the idea must be inferred.

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 04:10 AM
Hi Thom,

That is what I am saying. A person can turn away from God, I believe when this is done salvation is lost. I believe the Scriptures are clear on this issue. There is nothing in Scripture that states a person cannot turn away from God, even what many term a "true believer". If one rejects God then they are no longer a believer. Another thing is that there is no Scripture that states one cannot lose salvation, in all of the verses that are used for support, the idea must be inferred.

Unless our DADDY ["Abba Father"] slaps us both upside the head, and tell us, SPECIFICALLY, that we can lose HIS SALVATION to us, then don't believe otherwise BROTHER!!! Remember, HE will whip our butts, and bring us HOME, before HE allows us to un-become HIS child[ren].

Butch5
Apr 10th 2009, 04:19 AM
Unless our DADDY ["Abba Father"] slaps us both upside the head, and tell us, SPECIFICALLY, that we can lose HIS SALVATION to us, then don't believe otherwise BROTHER!!! Remember, HE will whip our butts, and bring us HOME, before HE allows us to un-become HIS child[ren].

Hi Thom,

I don't think we un-become His child. We don't become un-born when we die. I think it is a matter of rejection. The Scriptures are replete with warnings against turning away. Also the Scriptures I gave regarding the apostles. To me it is clear that the apostles could end up in hell, and I think Judas probably will. Remember Judas, was there with Peter, Matthew, and John, wen Jesus made this statement, I think Judas was lost, which to me shows that what Jesus said there was indeed the case.

THOM
Apr 10th 2009, 04:42 AM
Hi Thom,

I don't think we un-become His child. We don't become un-born when we die. I think it is a matter of rejection. The Scriptures are replete with warnings against turning away. Also the Scriptures I gave regarding the apostles. To me it is clear that the apostles could end up in hell, and I think Judas probably will. Remember Judas, was there with Peter, Matthew, and John, wen Jesus made this statement, I think Judas was lost, which to me shows that what Jesus said there was indeed the case.

JESUS stated something else about Judas that we sometimes miss, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition ; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)".

The word "perdition" in the Greek is "utter destruction"; GOD has even chosen to give even the most vile unsaved person, "the son of perdition", to ever exist, every possible opportunity to be saved (JESUS made "the son of perdition" one of HIS Disciples. . .now how much more can GOD do for anyone???). Some people are saved (by their own choosing) and some are lost (still, by their own choosing). But either way, it the choice of the saved and the lost to be such.

Judas chose to be, associated with Christ, run around with Christ (a "Christian", if you will), even handle THE THINGS of CHRIST (". . .Lord, Lord...Matthew 7:21-22"), BUT to never ever REALLY BE IN CHRIST!

Butch5
Apr 10th 2009, 05:21 AM
JESUS stated something else about Judas that we sometimes miss, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition ; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)".

The word "perdition" in the Greek is "utter destruction"; GOD has even chosen to give even the most vile unsaved person, "the son of perdition", to ever exist, every possible opportunity to be saved (JESUS made "the son of perdition" one of HIS Disciples. . .now how much more can GOD do for anyone???). Some people are saved (by their own choosing) and some are lost (still, by their own choosing). But either way, it the choice of the saved and the lost to be such.

Judas chose to be, associated with Christ, run around with Christ (a "Christian", if you will), even handle THE THINGS of CHRIST (". . .Lord, Lord...Matthew 7:21-22"), BUT to never ever REALLY BE IN CHRIST!

Now Thom, how can you say Judas was never "in Christ"? How do you know this? The point is, Judas "was" given to Christ by the Father, and he was lost. Jesus said,

John 6:39 ( KJV )
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

It was God's will that none be lost, however, Judas was given to Christ and was lost. So, salvation can be lost.

bagofseed
Apr 10th 2009, 06:42 AM
I keep coming back to the same thing.

How can I loose something the scriptures say I don't have yet?

Its a promise.

Why is it called the Helmet of the Hope of salvation instead of the helmet of the reality of salvation.

How is it that we have eternal life now when it is the outcome of our sanctification?

We are saved in hope now
We are being saved through sanctification
We will be saved, glorified.

If we endure to the end
If we do not abandon our faith
If we do not deny Him

Their is only one condition to salvation, keep believing and he will do the rest.

The only argument I see here is can someone who once believes ever stop believing.
I once believed in Santa
I once believed in my self.

fuzzi
Apr 10th 2009, 04:23 PM
Hi Fuzzi,

I am not ignoring you, however I am not going to respond to these Scriptures as we have been over this before. None of these Scriptures state that a person cannot turn away from God.
People can backslide, or turn away from God, I agree. That's their current state.

But it doesn't change their standing, once saved always saved. I am His child, forever, and I am with Him, forever!

I might sin, I might backslide, but God will remain my Father, and I am His adopted child, forever!

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:4-7)

I am with my Lord, RIGHT NOW, sitting together in heavenly places!

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (2 Timothy 4:18)

fuzzi
Apr 10th 2009, 04:28 PM
Now Thom, how can you say Judas was never "in Christ"? How do you know this? The point is, Judas "was" given to Christ by the Father, and he was lost. Jesus said,

John 6:39 ( KJV )
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

It was God's will that none be lost, however, Judas was given to Christ and was lost. So, salvation can be lost.
Judas was not saved, he was a child of Satan:

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." (John 6:70,71)

Butch5
Apr 12th 2009, 04:14 AM
Judas was not saved, he was a child of Satan:

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." (John 6:70,71)

Fuzzi,

The Greek word translated devil, also translates adversary. Judas was an advesary.

Butch5
Apr 12th 2009, 04:16 AM
People can backslide, or turn away from God, I agree. That's their current state.

But it doesn't change their standing, once saved always saved. I am His child, forever, and I am with Him, forever!

I might sin, I might backslide, but God will remain my Father, and I am His adopted child, forever!

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:4-7)

I am with my Lord, RIGHT NOW, sitting together in heavenly places!

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (2 Timothy 4:18)


The verses you quote only apply to those who are believing. They do not deal with the issue of turning away.

Butch5
Apr 12th 2009, 04:18 AM
I keep coming back to the same thing.

How can I loose something the scriptures say I don't have yet?

Its a promise.

Why is it called the Helmet of the Hope of salvation instead of the helmet of the reality of salvation.

How is it that we have eternal life now when it is the outcome of our sanctification?

We are saved in hope now
We are being saved through sanctification
We will be saved, glorified.

If we endure to the end
If we do not abandon our faith
If we do not deny Him

Their is only one condition to salvation, keep believing and he will do the rest.

The only argument I see here is can someone who once believes ever stop believing.
I once believed in Santa
I once believed in my self.

I agree, when I say saved, I am referring to being in Christ. Salvation is not actually given until after we have endured to the end.

bagofseed
Apr 12th 2009, 09:14 AM
I agree, when I say saved, I am referring to being in Christ. Salvation is not actually given until after we have endured to the end.
So loosing salvation is a matter of loosing Hope.

fuzzi
Apr 12th 2009, 05:54 PM
The Greek word translated devil, also translates adversary. Judas was an advesary.
Yes, and the devil is our adversary, too. See 1 Peter 5:8.

On a side note: what is this fascination with looking up words in a lexicon or concordance?

Paul himself was a very learned man, a Pharisee, but he did not try to impress people with his knowledge and his education. He spoke plainly, and was considered by some to be rude in speech:

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

We are not told to rely on man's wisdom, but to make God's word plain to those to whom we are speaking.

"And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it." (Habakkuk 2:2)

Whether or not they mean to sound that way, when anyone tries to appear 'scholarly' and point out what 'the Greek' said or what 'the originals' said, it gives the impression that that person is showing off their knowledge and wisdom.

"For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." (Romans 16:18)

Some put their trust in their scholarship rather than put their trust in what God said. The Pharisees did that, and Jesus spoke about their damnation, calling them vipers.

The gospel, the word of God, does not need scholars to interpret it, only the Holy Spirit.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 02:55 AM
So loosing salvation is a matter of loosing Hope.

No, it is rejecting Christ.

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 03:11 AM
Yes, and the devil is our adversary, too. See 1 Peter 5:8.

On a side note: what is this fascination with looking up words in a lexicon or concordance?

Paul himself was a very learned man, a Pharisee, but he did not try to impress people with his knowledge and his education. He spoke plainly, and was considered by some to be rude in speech:

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

We are not told to rely on man's wisdom, but to make God's word plain to those to whom we are speaking.

"And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it." (Habakkuk 2:2)

Whether or not they mean to sound that way, when anyone tries to appear 'scholarly' and point out what 'the Greek' said or what 'the originals' said, it gives the impression that that person is showing off their knowledge and wisdom.

"For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." (Romans 16:18)

Some put their trust in their scholarship rather than put their trust in what God said. The Pharisees did that, and Jesus spoke about their damnation, calling them vipers.

The gospel, the word of God, does not need scholars to interpret it, only the Holy Spirit.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)


Fuzzi,

What are you talking about? Do you look up words in the dictionary when you don't know what they mean? If so what is the problem with doing the same with the Greek language. I speak in plain language here, I am not trying to impress anyone. I simply give the Scriptures, there are times when Greek words have more than one meaning just as English words do. In such a case we need to look and see which word best fits the context. We must look at the language and see what it says, how are we to do so, if we don't understand how to read it? If you don't look at the original language then you are trusting so other "Scholar" to tell you what it says. Since we are dealing with eternal life, I will learn to look at the language myself rather than trust someone else to tell me what it says. Especially when there are so many different opinions that you can hardly tell who is right. It seems to me that your argument is simply to ignore what I have said. You are correct Satan is our adversary and Judas was Christ's adversary, however that does not mean that Judas was Satan, he couldn't have been because Scripture tells us that Satan entered Judas at the supper, so they could not have been the one in the same.

bagofseed
Apr 13th 2009, 05:37 AM
No, it is rejecting Christ.
Loosing hope (faith) is just that.
Its saying I no longer believe or trust in you.
What does rejecting Christ look like?

Butch5
Apr 13th 2009, 02:28 PM
Loosing hope (faith) is just that.
Its saying I no longer believe or trust in you.
What does rejecting Christ look like?

It is one who rejects Christ, one who denies His teaching, one who does not live as He said, one who rejects all that Christ is.

fuzzi
Apr 13th 2009, 11:36 PM
Yes, and the devil is our adversary, too. See 1 Peter 5:8.

On a side note: what is this fascination with looking up words in a lexicon or concordance?

Paul himself was a very learned man, a Pharisee, but he did not try to impress people with his knowledge and his education. He spoke plainly, and was considered by some to be rude in speech:

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

We are not told to rely on man's wisdom, but to make God's word plain to those to whom we are speaking.

"And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it." (Habakkuk 2:2)

Whether or not they mean to sound that way, when anyone tries to appear 'scholarly' and point out what 'the Greek' said or what 'the originals' said, it gives the impression that that person is showing off their knowledge and wisdom.

"For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." (Romans 16:18)

Some put their trust in their scholarship rather than put their trust in what God said. The Pharisees did that, and Jesus spoke about their damnation, calling them vipers.

The gospel, the word of God, does not need scholars to interpret it, only the Holy Spirit.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

Fuzzi,

What are you talking about? Do you look up words in the dictionary when you don't know what they mean? If so what is the problem with doing the same with the Greek language.
I know what the English words mean, they're in English.


I speak in plain language here, I am not trying to impress anyone. I simply give the Scriptures, there are times when Greek words have more than one meaning just as English words do. In such a case we need to look and see which word best fits the context. We must look at the language and see what it says, how are we to do so, if we don't understand how to read it? If you don't look at the original language then you are trusting so other "Scholar" to tell you what it says.
If you look at in a Greek translation of the New Testament, then you are also trusting in some 'scholar' to tell you what the non-existent 'originals' said.

If you are looking in a lexicon or a concordance, then you are also trusting in a 'scholar' to tell you what the best word would be.

I don't like trusting in that many variables. I'd rather trust in my God, and that He preserved His word in English, in a 400 year old translation that has withstood the test of time and use.


Since we are dealing with eternal life, I will learn to look at the language myself rather than trust someone else to tell me what it says. Especially when there are so many different opinions that you can hardly tell who is right.
I agree.


It seems to me that your argument is simply to ignore what I have said.
No, brother, I keep saying that it is not necessary to 'go' to any other language than English in order to know what God wants you to know.

There are plenty of arguments on both sides, but for me, the bottom line is this:

Do you trust that God did preserve His word?

If you don't think that God did or could preserve His word, then why should you trust what other men say? Why should you trust what other people tell you?

How do I know for sure that what I have on my desk is God's 100% inerrant and pure word?

Look at Scripture, look at what John wrote in 1 John 2:27:

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

You and I do not need any man to teach us, we do not need any scholar to tell us what 'the originals' said (especially since we don't have a copy of said 'originals' to compare our current translations to), and we certainly do not need any person to tell us what God wants us to know:

We, as born again children of God, have God Himself indwelling us, we have the Holy Spirit to guide and teach as well as comfort us.

If you, or if anyone would prefer to trust their eternal life to fallible men, rather than to the ability of our Lord to give us His word and teach us from it, then I leave 'em to it.

However, I am confident in my God's ability to supply my every need, including a copy of His word, without having to go to someone else to 'explain' it to me. My Lord makes His word clear to me, as He wills: if it is something He wants me to understand, He will open my heart to understanding it in the language I speak, English.


You are correct Satan is our adversary and Judas was Christ's adversary, however that does not mean that Judas was Satan, he couldn't have been because Scripture tells us that Satan entered Judas at the supper, so they could not have been the one in the same.
Don't you think that Jesus, as God Incarnate, would be aware of the future, what Judas was going to do?

And on a side note, doesn't Jesus refer to the (unsaved) Pharisees as children of the devil? If Judas was unsaved, then he, too, was a child of the devil, or a devil himself.

I don't base my faith upon my own understanding, but upon God's ability.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." (Proverbs 3:5-7)

Partaker of Christ
Apr 14th 2009, 12:01 AM
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Butch5
Apr 14th 2009, 12:14 AM
I know what the English words mean, they're in English.


If you look at in a Greek translation of the New Testament, then you are also trusting in some 'scholar' to tell you what the non-existent 'originals' said.

If you are looking in a lexicon or a concordance, then you are also trusting in a 'scholar' to tell you what the best word would be.

I don't like trusting in that many variables. I'd rather trust in my God, and that He preserved His word in English, in a 400 year old translation that has withstood the test of time and use.


I agree.


No, brother, I keep saying that it is not necessary to 'go' to any other language than English in order to know what God wants you to know.

There are plenty of arguments on both sides, but for me, the bottom line is this:

Do you trust that God did preserve His word?

If you don't think that God did or could preserve His word, then why should you trust what other men say? Why should you trust what other people tell you?

How do I know for sure that what I have on my desk is God's 100% inerrant and pure word?

Look at Scripture, look at what John wrote in 1 John 2:27:

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

You and I do not need any man to teach us, we do not need any scholar to tell us what 'the originals' said (especially since we don't have a copy of said 'originals' to compare our current translations to), and we certainly do not need any person to tell us what God wants us to know:

We, as born again children of God, have God Himself indwelling us, we have the Holy Spirit to guide and teach as well as comfort us.

If you, or if anyone would prefer to trust their eternal life to fallible men, rather than to the ability of our Lord to give us His word and teach us from it, then I leave 'em to it.

However, I am confident in my God's ability to supply my every need, including a copy of His word, without having to go to someone else to 'explain' it to me. My Lord makes His word clear to me, as He wills: if it is something He wants me to understand, He will open my heart to understanding it in the language I speak, English.


Don't you think that Jesus, as God Incarnate, would be aware of the future, what Judas was going to do?

And on a side note, doesn't Jesus refer to the (unsaved) Pharisees as children of the devil? If Judas was unsaved, then he, too, was a child of the devil, or a devil himself.

I don't base my faith upon my own understanding, but upon God's ability.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." (Proverbs 3:5-7)

The problem is you don't have the originals, so you don't have the inerrant word of God, you have a translation, and if it is 400 years old it is a translation that was translated during the reformation. There was much error that came out of the reformation. You say we have the Holy Spirit to guide us, why then do you and I not agree 100% on everything Biblical if we are both guided by the Spirit??? Regarding the Greek language, the NT was written in the Greek and therefore it is closer to the originals than the English. However regarding your 400 year old translation which you say has been preserved. I have a question, Hebrews 1:6, the writer quotes the OT, He quotes Deuteronomy 32:43, how come what the writer says in Hebrews doesn't match what Deuteronomy says???
New Testament
Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV ) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Deuteronomy 32:43
Masoretic text
Deuteronomy 32:43 ( KJV ) 43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

I could post many more, but I wait your reply.

fuzzi
Apr 14th 2009, 04:46 PM
The problem is you don't have the originals, so you don't have the inerrant word of God, you have a translation, and if it is 400 years old it is a translation that was translated during the reformation.
None of us has the 'originals'.

None of us has something to use as a 'perfect' example.

So, how can you or anyone else know what is error, and what is not?


You say we have the Holy Spirit to guide us, why then do you and I not agree 100% on everything Biblical if we are both guided by the Spirit???
That is an interesting question, isn't it?

Why did Peter and Paul disagree on certain applications of doctrine?

Didn't they both have the Holy Spirit guiding them?


Regarding the Greek language, the NT was written in the Greek and therefore it is closer to the originals than the English.
The original NT Scriptures were in Greek, for the most part, depending on who you listen to.

The NTs we have today in Greek are not the originals, and we do not have an original to compare them to, to see where there are errors or not.

How do you resolve that?


However regarding your 400 year old translation which you say has been preserved. I have a question, Hebrews 1:6, the writer quotes the OT, He quotes Deuteronomy 32:43, how come what the writer says in Hebrews doesn't match what Deuteronomy says???
New Testament
Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV ) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Deuteronomy 32:43
Masoretic text
Deuteronomy 32:43 ( KJV ) 43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

I could post many more, but I wait your reply.
That will have to wait until after I get home tonight.

In the meanwhile, would you address my concerns, repeated above?

Thank you.

Butch5
Apr 15th 2009, 04:18 AM
fuzzi---None of us has the 'originals'.

None of us has something to use as a 'perfect' example.

So, how can you or anyone else know what is error, and what is not?


We can look at the vast amount of texts and see that most are in agreement, the one that are not are probably wrong. There are other ways to know what is correct, however it would be to much to get into on a forum.


fuzzi---That is an interesting question, isn't it?

Why did Peter and Paul disagree on certain applications of doctrine?

Didn't they both have the Holy Spirit guiding them?


They may have disagreed on application, however, they did not disagree on doctrine. You and I believe opposite things regarding doctrine, I don't think the Holy Spirit is leading us each in a different direction regarding what is truth.



fuzzi---The original NT Scriptures were in Greek, for the most part, depending on who you listen to.

The NTs we have today in Greek are not the originals, and we do not have an original to compare them to, to see where there are errors or not.

How do you resolve that?

We do not have the originals, however we have many ancient copies. There are over 5000 Greek manuscripts. While no two read identical, they are in agreement on doctrine, the differences are minor and do not effect doctrine. The fact that we have over 5000 manuscripts that, for the most part agree leads me to believe that what they say is true.


fuzzi---That will have to wait until after I get home tonight.

In the meanwhile, would you address my concerns, repeated above?

Thank you.

I'll await your response, that is just one of many verses that are different in not only the KJV but most if not all of the English translations.

copper25
Apr 16th 2009, 02:25 AM
It is a shame that people say they trust in God, but then do not trust Him to preserve His word. It is very ironic.

Butch5
Apr 16th 2009, 03:01 AM
It is a shame that people say they trust in God, but then do not trust Him to preserve His word. It is very ironic.

Who said they don't trust God to preserve them?

copper25
Apr 16th 2009, 11:08 AM
Only by the working of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts is how we have come to repentance, not by our own will.

In order to say that a TRUE christian could be plucked out of God's hand, you would have be willing to admit that in a way God dropped the ball, (which does not happen). Why?

John 10:27-29)

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Every true beleiver is in God's hand, so to say that a true beleiver could leave the faith, you would have to say that God let them go, because they are currently in His hand.

And now seeing that God said many times in the bible that He would not forsake us, we can rest assured, if we are really His, a true beleiver, that nothing on this earth shall seperate us from the Lord.

If a true beleiver wound up in hell, it would mean that God dropped the ball and forsaked them ( which does not happen)

sorry I did not spell check in a hurry

Butch5
Apr 16th 2009, 09:53 PM
Only by the working of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts is how we have come to repentance, not by our own will.

In order to say that a TRUE christian could be plucked out of God's hand, you would have be willing to admit that in a way God dropped the ball, (which does not happen). Why?

John 10:27-29)

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Every true beleiver is in God's hand, so to say that a true beleiver could leave the faith, you would have to say that God let them go, because they are currently in His hand.

And now seeing that God said many times in the bible that He would not forsake us, we can rest assured, if we are really His, a true beleiver, that nothing on this earth shall seperate us from the Lord.

If a true beleiver wound up in hell, it would mean that God dropped the ball and forsaked them ( which does not happen)

sorry I did not spell check in a hurry


Not so, Where in Scripture does it say that one cannot leave God's hand? It says one can pluck us from God's hand. No one has the power to take from God any believer who desires to remain with Him. However, Scripture makes it clear that God will not force anyone to remain with Him if the choose not to. Look at the OT, over and over the Israelites turned away from God. Those in the wilderness died because they turned from God. When they were following Him, He delivered them out of Egypt, however when they turned on Him, He let them go their way. It is no different today. God can and will keep any and all who desire to stay with Him. However, He won't keep anyone against their will. Notice verse 27, my sheep, who are His sheep? They are the ones that follow Him, if they turn away there are no longer His sheep.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 16th 2009, 10:49 PM
Not so, Where in Scripture does it say that one cannot leave God's hand? It says one can pluck us from God's hand. No one has the power to take from God any believer who desires to remain with Him. However, Scripture makes it clear that God will not force anyone to remain with Him if the choose not to. Look at the OT, over and over the Israelites turned away from God. Those in the wilderness died because they turned from God. When they were following Him, He delivered them out of Egypt, however when they turned on Him, He let them go their way. It is no different today. God can and will keep any and all who desire to stay with Him. However, He won't keep anyone against their will. Notice verse 27, my sheep, who are His sheep? They are the ones that follow Him, if they turn away there are no longer His sheep.

Doesn't 'no one' include yourself?

The scripture say's nothing, zilch, zero, about we can 'choose' not to remain.

Again, Salvation is submitting to His will. He desires that all would be saved, so to be saved, is to do His will.

I find nothing in the scripture that says, it is His will that some would choose not to remain.
We can only choose from what is offered, and when it is offered.

TODAY, 'IF' you hear His voice: Faith comes by hearing, and hearing His voice. So tell me, If we need 'faith' (that comes by hearing) to receive Him, can we leave Him without having faith?

Will they be a day that we can call TODAY, when we would hear His voice saying, you may leave me?

We are told obey His voice, nowhere does it say, that God will obey our voice.

When we surrender to Christ, He is the BOTH, Saviour AND Lord. His Lordship over us, is not an optional extra to salvation. If He is now Lord, then we are no longer lord, for there is only One Lord.

He is the Head of the Body, and the body is under the will and Lordship of the Head. It is just plain foolish to think that the arm, or the leg, has a will of its own.

copper25
Apr 16th 2009, 11:06 PM
My Freind, you think of the old covenant and not the new one

This is of the new

Ezekiel 36

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Butch5 said
"God can and will keep any and all who desire to stay with Him. However, He won't keep anyone against their will. Notice verse 27, my sheep, who are His sheep? They are the ones that follow Him, if they turn away there are no longer His sheep."

Now look at Hebrews 12

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.


7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God will correct those He loves. Do you think that God would let any child of His wonder on the path of distruction and would not correct him?

second

Now look at Jerimiah 32

39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Do you see what I plainly see? God will literally put the fear of Him into His chosen people and remember, as Christians, we are adopted into the new
covenant.

Third, do you really think that a true child of God who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, who has been made a new creature, who is elected of God, (cause remember now Butch5, the only way a person can even come to repentance is by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, by the grace of God), who has been drawn to Christ by the Father, who has tasted of divine grace, is really just going to walk away from God, nay, I tell you truly, God is zealous for His people. Look at the OT example of Jonah

Jonah 1

1Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,


2Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

Now look what God did, did He just let him go, nay. Lets look at verse
17) Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

God perpared a great fish for Jonah to be swallowed by and Look at Jonah's reaction, terrified. The Lord reminded Jonah of what he is apart from Him and we can see that in Jonah 2

Jonah 2

1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Now look what God did, Jonah tried to run away because we WAS NOT WILLING to do what the Lord asked of Him. Then the Lord sent affliction upon Jonah to remind him who He(God) was and that apart from Him(God), Jonah is dead and helpless. Now I ask you this, do you think that God wouldn't do the same for us if that same atittude in Jonah had was found in us? Is God a favor of persons, nay. God is zealous for and will make sure His elected people do not leave him EVER.

Jeremiah 32 This is God talking

37Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:


38And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

Butch5 I have laid these truths before you, now look carefully at what God says in Jerimiah 32:41, I hope it amazes you as it does me.

Butch5
Apr 16th 2009, 11:30 PM
Doesn't 'no one' include yourself?

The scripture say's nothing, zilch, zero, about we can 'choose' not to remain.

Again, Salvation is submitting to His will. He desires that all would be saved, so to be saved, is to do His will.

I find nothing in the scripture that says, it is His will that some would choose not to remain.
We can only choose from what is offered, and when it is offered.

TODAY, 'IF' you hear His voice: Faith comes by hearing, and hearing His voice. So tell me, If we need 'faith' (that comes by hearing) to receive Him, can we leave Him without having faith?

Will they be a day that we can call TODAY, when we would hear His voice saying, you may leave me?

We are told obey His voice, nowhere does it say, that God will obey our voice.

When we surrender to Christ, He is the BOTH, Saviour AND Lord. His Lordship over us, is not an optional extra to salvation. If He is now Lord, then we are no longer lord, for there is only One Lord.

He is the Head of the Body, and the body is under the will and Lordship of the Head. It is just plain foolish to think that the arm, or the leg, has a will of its own.

OK, since you are under His Lordship and that is absolute as you appear to be saying then can I assume that you never commit sin? Since that is not His will.

As far as,


Partaker---The scripture say's nothing, zilch, zero, about we can 'choose' not to remain.

This is just one of many passages that say we can choose to leave,


Colossians 1:21-23 ( KJV )
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

"if" is conditional, since it is God's will that we would continue, it must be that man has the ability to choose to leave or Paul would have no reason to make this statement.

Butch5
Apr 16th 2009, 11:58 PM
copper25---My Freind, you think of the old covenant and not the new one

This is of the new

Ezekiel 36

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Butch5 said
"God can and will keep any and all who desire to stay with Him. However, He won't keep anyone against their will. Notice verse 27, my sheep, who are His sheep? They are the ones that follow Him, if they turn away there are no longer His sheep."

Now look at Hebrews 12

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.


7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God will correct those He loves. Do you think that God would let any child of His wonder on the path of distruction and would not correct him?


Yes, This does not provide your point. God may chastise those He loves, however that does not mean they will not turn from God. Again look at the Scriptures you posted, what does it say? "If you endure" Chastening, you are sons. What does that mean if you don't endure the chastening? it means you are no longer sons.




copper25---second

Now look at Jerimiah 32

39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Do you see what I plainly see? God will literally put the fear of Him into His chosen people and remember, as Christians, we are adopted into the new
covenant.



Jeremiah 32:32-43 ( KJV )
Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
And now therefore thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence;
Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.

Let me ask you, are you living in the promised land? Are all Christians living in the promised land? Obviously this refers to the people that will be in the land


copper25---Third, do you really think that a true child of God who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, who has been made a new creature, who is elected of God, (cause remember now Butch5, the only way a person can even come to repentance is by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, by the grace of God), who has been drawn to Christ by the Father, who has tasted of divine grace, is really just going to walk away from God, nay, I tell you truly, God is zealous for His people. Look at the OT example of Jonah

Jonah 1

1Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,


2Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

Now look what God did, did He just let him go, nay. Lets look at verse
17) Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

God perpared a great fish for Jonah to be swallowed by and Look at Jonah's reaction, terrified. The Lord reminded Jonah of what he is apart from Him and we can see that in Jonah 2

Jonah 2

1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Now look what God did, Jonah tried to run away because we WAS NOT WILLING to do what the Lord asked of Him. Then the Lord sent affliction upon Jonah to remind him who He(God) was and that apart from Him(God), Jonah is dead and helpless. Now I ask you this, do you think that God wouldn't do the same for us if that same atittude in Jonah had was found in us? Is God a favor of persons, nay. God is zealous for and will make sure His elected people do not leave him EVER.




Yes, God also sent Jonah on a mission, that is what Jonah was fleeing from. You can interpret that however you like, However there is a multitude of clear Scripture that warns against turning from God. I don't see why the writers of Scripture would put such effort into warning people not to turn away if it were not possible. Why would the writer of Hebrews, being inspired by the Holy Spirit, spend so much time warning against turning away if it were not possible. Surely the Holy Spirit knows the truth.


copper25---Jeremiah 32 This is God talking

37Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:


38And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

Butch5 I have laid these truths before you, now look carefully at what God says in Jerimiah 32:41, I hope it amazes you as it does me.


And I have shown you that this is speaking of Israel, it is crystal clear. You must read these texts in context, I believe this speaks of the promise made to Abraham. If you look in Genesis, you will see that God made a promise to Abraham, that He (God) would give the land to Abraham as an inheritance "forever". After the resurrection the Jews who are saved will once again be in that land, just as God promised Abraham.

dan p
Apr 17th 2009, 01:13 AM
The eternal life that John speaks of is in Christ, if one is no longer in Christ, one no longer has this eternal life.


John 10:28 Speaks of those who follow, His sheep. Christ, if one no longer follows Christ, then one is no long one of His sheep.

I'll pose this passage to you,


Mark 9:35-50 ( KJV ) 35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part.



41For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.


If a believer cannot lose salvation, please explain to me why Jesus would call the twelve and say, to Peter, Matthew, John, and the rest, it is better for you to enter life (eternal) maimed than to be whole and go into hell, into the fire that is not quenched.

1) Since we have to quote from John , all that Butch5 , is quoting from the Old Testament , and is NOT written to the Body of Christ .

2) Most will try to escape the cutting of the HAND and the plucking of the EYES is Symbolic , or that it is Not Literal , and it is Literal in context .

3) They did not have the Holy Spirit , like those in the Body of Christ .

Bliz
Apr 17th 2009, 02:11 AM
Hi,

Isn't it true that more often than not, the Bible speaks of faith and believing in the present and ongoing tense?...

Faith is our appropriation of God's grace, and the Bible does indeed talk about falling away from the faith.

In order to fall away from something, isn't is reasonable to assume that one has possessed faith to begin with in order to fall away from it?...

Many did die in the wilderness as mentioned in earlier posts, and that example is used three times in the New Testament as a warning. To divide up the Scripture into applicable portions is dangerous theology in light of the fact that all the Scripture is for our benefit, not merely portions of it.

I am utterly amazed by how many Christian brethren want the minimum requirements necessary in order to enter the kingdom of God.

I don't know about others out there, but I want EVERYTHING God has to offer in order to be a maximum Christian! :)

Salvation is a process, and it is an ongoing one at that... we were justified, and are being sanctified, that one day we may be glorified in Christ. (past, present, future)

I find it presumptuous to say that we are "saved", as though the process were complete.

We are certainly in the way of salvation, but to say that we are there flies in the face of the fact that God is not finished with us yet.

Blessings to all!

Bliz
Carpe Logos!

Butch5
Apr 17th 2009, 02:38 AM
Hi,

Isn't it true that more often than not, the Bible speaks of faith and believing in the present and ongoing tense?...

Faith is our appropriation of God's grace, and the Bible does indeed talk about falling away from the faith.

In order to fall away from something, isn't is reasonable to assume that one has possessed faith to begin with in order to fall away from it?...

Many did die in the wilderness as mentioned in earlier posts, and that example is used three times in the New Testament as a warning. To divide up the Scripture into applicable portions is dangerous theology in light of the fact that all the Scripture is for our benefit, not merely portions of it.

I am utterly amazed by how many Christian brethren want the minimum requirements necessary in order to enter the kingdom of God.

I don't know about others out there, but I want EVERYTHING God has to offer in order to be a maximum Christian! :)

Salvation is a process, and it is an ongoing one at that... we were justified, and are being sanctified, that one day we may be glorified in Christ. (past, present, future)

I find it presumptuous to say that we are "saved", as though the process were complete.

We are certainly in the way of salvation, but to say that we are there flies in the face of the fact that God is not finished with us yet.

Blessings to all!

Well said my friend!

Partaker of Christ
Apr 18th 2009, 11:34 PM
OK, since you are under His Lordship and that is absolute as you appear to be saying then can I assume that you never commit sin? Since that is not His will.

Do you deny the absolute Lordship of Jesus Christ?
If He is not absolute Lord, then how can He be absolute Saviour?

He is BOTH Saviour AND Lord.

What has my commiting sin, have to do with the Lordship of Christ?

'Christ in me' does not, and cannot sin.
Since we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.



As far as,

This is just one of many passages that say we can choose to leave,


Colossians 1:21-23 ( KJV )
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

"if" is conditional, since it is God's will that we would continue, it must be that man has the ability to choose to leave or Paul would have no reason to make this statement.

'IF' is not conditional. It is evidential of having true faith.
Has the seed fallen on the good ground, that has received the word and understood it? Until there is root there is no growth, and if there is no growth there is no fruit.

It is by their fruit that you shall know them. Until you see the fruit, you cannot tell them.

Is Paul so arrogant to say if 'you' continue.
If it were conditional, then Paul would have said 'If WE' continue.

James07
Apr 19th 2009, 12:18 AM
Greetings to my brothers in Christ.

The scripture clearly teaches once one is born into God's family he cannot be unborn. It's a different covenant than the OT.

(KJV)

Col 1:23 If we continue... is referring to verse 28 & 29. NOT losing salvation. Re-read the first 20 verses. These are believers and Paul is exhorting Colossians to mature in Christ. This is referring to the Judgement seat of Christ.

1 Cor 3:15- If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Notice verse 28: "that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus."

Verse 29: Paul laboring, striving. (We know we are saved by grace through faith Eph 2:8) Paul prayed constantly that new converts would grow.

I found in order to properly understand the scripture (I humbly state this, as I am no expert) The Holy Spirit has to do the teaching and here is His formula:

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

1 Cor 2:13- Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Pray, read, let the Holy Spirit interpret with comparing SCRIPTURE with SCRIPTURE.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I hope this helps. Remember this message from the Holy Spirit in God's Word...

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Butch5
Apr 19th 2009, 12:59 AM
Do you deny the absolute Lordship of Jesus Christ?
If He is not absolute Lord, then how can He be absolute Saviour?

He is BOTH Saviour AND Lord.

What has my commiting sin, have to do with the Lordship of Christ?

'Christ in me' does not, and cannot sin.
Since we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.




'IF' is not conditional. It is evidential of having true faith.
Has the seed fallen on the good ground, that has received the word and understood it? Until there is root there is no growth, and if there is no growth there is no fruit.

It is by their fruit that you shall know them. Until you see the fruit, you cannot tell them.

Is Paul so arrogant to say if 'you' continue.
If it were conditional, then Paul would have said 'If WE' continue.



Partaker---'IF' is not conditional.

That says it all, there is no need to continue.

Butch5
Apr 19th 2009, 01:01 AM
Greetings to my brothers in Christ.

The scripture clearly teaches once one is born into God's family he cannot be unborn. It's a different covenant than the OT.

(KJV)

Col 1:23 If we continue... is referring to verse 28 & 29. NOT losing salvation. Re-read the first 20 verses. These are believers and Paul is exhorting Colossians to mature in Christ. This is referring to the Judgement seat of Christ.

1 Cor 3:15- If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Notice verse 28: "that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus."

Verse 29: Paul laboring, striving. (We know we are saved by grace through faith Eph 2:8) Paul prayed constantly that new converts would grow.

I found in order to properly understand the scripture (I humbly state this, as I am no expert) The Holy Spirit has to do the teaching and here is His formula:

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

1 Cor 2:13- Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Pray, read, let the Holy Spirit interpret with comparing SCRIPTURE with SCRIPTURE.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I hope this helps. Remember this message from the Holy Spirit in God's Word...

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hi James,

You are pulling Scriptures for all over, can you please put them in context.

copper25
Apr 19th 2009, 05:29 PM
The main verse we will be looking at is Matthew 16:18

Matthew 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Let's look at this verse as a child with simplicity,

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"

The Church is built upon the foundation of Christ Jesus

Colossians 1
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We are as true believers already been translated into the kingdom of Christ, made fellow citizens with the saints and are part of the household of God

Ephesians 2

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Now also notice, this, are we in the process of being redeemed or have WE ALREADY BEEN REDEEMED by the blood of our Lord and
Savior? The answer, we already have redeemed (and now of course we wait for the ressurection)

Ephesians 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

So looking at this verse and many more of the such that we could, we see that we are currently already redeemed, else we would still be dead in our sins.

In Galatians 3:13 is states, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us"

Now that we have established that we have been redeemed, that we who are in Christ are broken free from the condition of being dead in our sins and the law because of what He did for us on the cross, let us examine what we are alive to

John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Without a relationship with the Lord Jesus, can anyone every know the way to follow, meaning to actually follow it? No. Can any man without Christ know the truth of which to live, to follow after? No. Can any man without Christ know, that is to say have eternal life, what it is to truly possess it? No

So we conclude that only in Christ can a man know the way, the correct way in a world filled with the broad way; only in Christ can a man know the real truth, the richness, the beginning of the comprehension of deep truth; only in Christ can a man possess eternal life

So far we have concluded what is stated in the immediate above paragraph, and that we as true believers are redeemed, are not dead in our sins because of that redemption, that we in our current status, made fellow citizens with the saints and are part of the household of God, and that apart from Christ a man is lost not knowing the truth, not knowing the way, and does not have eternal life.

Now for the fourth part of John 4:16, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, no man ever has a relationship with the Father.

Thus after all this we can conclude that all those in Christ, know the way because they truly know Christ, they know the truth even in a world filled with corruption, lies and falsehood, they have been redeemed and saved from the condition of being dead in sin, they have a relationship with the Father through Christ Jesus, and They have the life, eternal life in Christ Jesus. All of these things are true for all true believers

I know that this is a long proof and explanation but please bear with me on this one. :D

Seeing as we have established these things, let us move on the second part of Matthew 16:18, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Who is Christ talking about when He says "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Who else but the Church, the bride of Christ.
We are given countless warnings with the word if in them but I want you to see something that came upon me a couple days ago.

Hebrews 12

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Why?

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

In verse 7 of Hebrews 12, enduring does not mean in the sense of those in groupA get chastised and withstood it; and then groupb gets chastised and does not withstand it. No it is purely talking about whether a person is receiving divine correction, or divine chastisement at all or not. Meaning that if a person, and I don't care how long they have claimed to have a relationship with Christ, with God; If they can just say I don't want to be a Christian anymore, if they can just up and leave the faith, and go back to the conformity of this God hating world under any circumstance, and not receive any correcting, and discipline from the Father to get them back on the correct path, the straight and narrow, then I say and tell you truly that they NEVER had their Father in heaven, nor a relationship with Him!

Hebrews 12:8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Mark my words, God will break His children, humbling them to bring them back to the truth, that they are dead and lifeless, weak, and helpless apart from God. What God said in Jeremiah 32:39-41 was speaking to Jerusalem saying

39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

41Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

BUT I say unto you truly, God is zealous for His chosen people, not just in Israel, not just in Judah, but for all those in the Church as well. When God said "Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul."

Do you think that God would not make sure with His might, by all His power, that His elect will enter into the promise land of eternal life?
Do you really think that Christ is going to let any of His church, and I mean any of them perish in the gates of hell; that Christ who CANNOT LIE, stated with His own lips, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.", shall even let one member of the Church, a genuine, transformed born again, saved by his blood, drawn to Him and elected by the Father, regenerated by the Holy Spirit believer is going perish in the gates of hell, that the gates of hell shall prevail against them? I think not. You speak with many ifs, but I speak with many certainties, things of inevitability, things that are solid in scriptural teaching. Are we above heeding the warnings of God, No, but if we have been truly elected of God, He WILL persevere His elect, He WILL lead us to the promise land, we WILL see victory and be with God forever. IF we are TRULY his God WILL uphold us, cause us to persevere. God upholds and strengthens His elect with a mighty hand, with power unbreakable.
Who can pluck, if God doesn’t will it to be plucked? Who can uproot when God wills that it be uprooted not? Who can escape from the presence of God, from the control of God who is absolutely sovereign in all majesty and power? When can the will of man override the absolute, going to happen, can’t return back void word that proceedeth from the mouth of the living God? I will say it again, “Mark my words, God will break His children, humbling them to bring them back to the truth, that they are dead and lifeless, weak, and helpless apart from God.” Will something that God wills to happen, any individual whom God elects to be saved not be saved under any circumstance? Nay, I tell you truly, the purpose that God has purposed will be executed.

Psalm 33:11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Proverbs 19:21) There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Isaiah 14:24) The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand


And how do we know that we are truly His, look at the book of 1 John
and look what is said in 1 John 5:13) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Test ourselves in the light of scripture Hebrews 4:12) “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Partaker of Christ
Apr 19th 2009, 10:52 PM
That says it all, there is no need to continue.

Just read the parable of the sower!!

Matt 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

He shall 'indeed' bear fruit. No IF's or BUT's

Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Butch5
Apr 20th 2009, 01:47 AM
Just read the parable of the sower!!

Matt 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

He shall 'indeed' bear fruit. No IF's or BUT's

Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Just because He bears fruit does not mean he will be saved. I'm sure during Jesus ministry on earth, that Judas bore some fruit, however he was lost.

In the other statement Paul is clear,

Colossians 1:21-23 ( KJV )
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Paul says here, they were enemies, however, they have been reconciled, for what reason? To present the holy, unblamable, and unreproveable, in God's sight. However Paul says this will only happen "if" the continue in the faith, if they remain grounded and settled in the faith. The simply fact that Paul uses the word "if" indicates that he knows there is the chance that they will "not" continue in the faith. thus we have a conditional statement.

Butch5
Apr 20th 2009, 01:58 AM
The main verse we will be looking at is Matthew 16:18

Matthew 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Let's look at this verse as a child with simplicity,

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"

The Church is built upon the foundation of Christ Jesus

Colossians 1
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We are as true believers already been translated into the kingdom of Christ, made fellow citizens with the saints and are part of the household of God

Ephesians 2

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Now also notice, this, are we in the process of being redeemed or have WE ALREADY BEEN REDEEMED by the blood of our Lord and
Savior? The answer, we already have redeemed (and now of course we wait for the ressurection)

Ephesians 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

So looking at this verse and many more of the such that we could, we see that we are currently already redeemed, else we would still be dead in our sins.

In Galatians 3:13 is states, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us"

Now that we have established that we have been redeemed, that we who are in Christ are broken free from the condition of being dead in our sins and the law because of what He did for us on the cross, let us examine what we are alive to

John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Without a relationship with the Lord Jesus, can anyone every know the way to follow, meaning to actually follow it? No. Can any man without Christ know the truth of which to live, to follow after? No. Can any man without Christ know, that is to say have eternal life, what it is to truly possess it? No

So we conclude that only in Christ can a man know the way, the correct way in a world filled with the broad way; only in Christ can a man know the real truth, the richness, the beginning of the comprehension of deep truth; only in Christ can a man possess eternal life

So far we have concluded what is stated in the immediate above paragraph, and that we as true believers are redeemed, are not dead in our sins because of that redemption, that we in our current status, made fellow citizens with the saints and are part of the household of God, and that apart from Christ a man is lost not knowing the truth, not knowing the way, and does not have eternal life.

Now for the fourth part of John 4:16, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, no man ever has a relationship with the Father.

Thus after all this we can conclude that all those in Christ, know the way because they truly know Christ, they know the truth even in a world filled with corruption, lies and falsehood, they have been redeemed and saved from the condition of being dead in sin, they have a relationship with the Father through Christ Jesus, and They have the life, eternal life in Christ Jesus. All of these things are true for all true believers

I know that this is a long proof and explanation but please bear with me on this one. :D

Seeing as we have established these things, let us move on the second part of Matthew 16:18, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Who is Christ talking about when He says "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Who else but the Church, the bride of Christ.
We are given countless warnings with the word if in them but I want you to see something that came upon me a couple days ago.

Hebrews 12

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Why?

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

In verse 7 of Hebrews 12, enduring does not mean in the sense of those in groupA get chastised and withstood it; and then groupb gets chastised and does not withstand it. No it is purely talking about whether a person is receiving divine correction, or divine chastisement at all or not. Meaning that if a person, and I don't care how long they have claimed to have a relationship with Christ, with God; If they can just say I don't want to be a Christian anymore, if they can just up and leave the faith, and go back to the conformity of this God hating world under any circumstance, and not receive any correcting, and discipline from the Father to get them back on the correct path, the straight and narrow, then I say and tell you truly that they NEVER had their Father in heaven, nor a relationship with Him!

Hebrews 12:8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Mark my words, God will break His children, humbling them to bring them back to the truth, that they are dead and lifeless, weak, and helpless apart from God. What God said in Jeremiah 32:39-41 was speaking to Jerusalem saying

39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

41Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

BUT I say unto you truly, God is zealous for His chosen people, not just in Israel, not just in Judah, but for all those in the Church as well. When God said "Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul."

Do you think that God would not make sure with His might, by all His power, that His elect will enter into the promise land of eternal life?
Do you really think that Christ is going to let any of His church, and I mean any of them perish in the gates of hell; that Christ who CANNOT LIE, stated with His own lips, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.", shall even let one member of the Church, a genuine, transformed born again, saved by his blood, drawn to Him and elected by the Father, regenerated by the Holy Spirit believer is going perish in the gates of hell, that the gates of hell shall prevail against them? I think not. You speak with many ifs, but I speak with many certainties, things of inevitability, things that are solid in scriptural teaching. Are we above heeding the warnings of God, No, but if we have been truly elected of God, He WILL persevere His elect, He WILL lead us to the promise land, we WILL see victory and be with God forever. IF we are TRULY his God WILL uphold us, cause us to persevere. God upholds and strengthens His elect with a mighty hand, with power unbreakable.
Who can pluck, if God doesn’t will it to be plucked? Who can uproot when God wills that it be uprooted not? Who can escape from the presence of God, from the control of God who is absolutely sovereign in all majesty and power? When can the will of man override the absolute, going to happen, can’t return back void word that proceedeth from the mouth of the living God? I will say it again, “Mark my words, God will break His children, humbling them to bring them back to the truth, that they are dead and lifeless, weak, and helpless apart from God.” Will something that God wills to happen, any individual whom God elects to be saved not be saved under any circumstance? Nay, I tell you truly, the purpose that God has purposed will be executed.

Psalm 33:11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Proverbs 19:21) There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Isaiah 14:24) The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand


And how do we know that we are truly His, look at the book of 1 John
and look what is said in 1 John 5:13) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Test ourselves in the light of scripture Hebrews 4:12) “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Can you show Scripture that says a person cannot turn away from God??? That is all you need. There is no need to post a multitude of verses showing that believers are taken care of, no one disputes the idea that God is able to care for all that come to Him. The question is does God force a person to stay, when that person wants to leave? We have an entire Old Testament that shows us over and over and over that when the Israelites chose not to follow God, He did not force them. He brought destruction on them (chastisement). However, He never forced them to stay and He never forced them to return. It is still the same, when a believer strays God will chastise him, however, if that one does not endure the chastening God will let him go.

Hebrews 12:6-8 ( KJV )
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If you endure chastening you are a son, if you are without chastening you are not a son. The "if" makes it a condition statement, If you endure, you are a son, if you do not endure then you are no longer a son. it's crystal clear.

PilgrimPastor
Apr 20th 2009, 03:32 AM
Sorry Bladers but I've seen all that and I'll walk away, thank you. The Holy Spirit works in me just as much as He does in Benny Hinn - so I would tell you to use caution when ANYTHING or anyone takes precedence over Christ.

V

Amen. This was a major error of Roman doctrine that the reformers set out to correct. While I am not in full agreement with Calvin with regard to Limited Atonement or Unconditional Election, when it comes to Perseverance of the Saints, he got it right. Salvation is in accordance with the gift of Grace alone, according to faith alone. Even the faith with which we access the grace of God is the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who respond to the conviction of sin leading unto repentance which currently blankets the world.

I can't earn grace, I may only rightly respond in faith to its offer. Once I am "In Christ" then my security is also "In Christ" not in my efforts. Sanctification is again the right response to grace, but it is not a prerequisite to its receipt.

I like the way that the NLT puts it, "God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God." (Ephesians 2:8 NLT)

Perhaps more literally it says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

A focus on God's grace would be valuable in this discussion for a right (biblical) understanding.

Humbly in the Grip of His Grace...

Tomlane
Apr 20th 2009, 01:33 PM
PilgrimPastor, I'm in complete agreement with you that salvation is a free gift from God. So in your understanding does water baptism fit into the scheme of things?

Thanks Tomlane

BroRog
Apr 20th 2009, 02:41 PM
Amen. This was a major error of Roman doctrine that the reformers set out to correct. While I am not in full agreement with Calvin with regard to Limited Atonement or Unconditional Election, when it comes to Perseverance of the Saints, he got it right. Salvation is in accordance with the gift of Grace alone, according to faith alone. Even the faith with which we access the grace of God is the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who respond to the conviction of sin leading unto repentance which currently blankets the world.

I can't earn grace, I may only rightly respond in faith to its offer. Once I am "In Christ" then my security is also "In Christ" not in my efforts. Sanctification is again the right response to grace, but it is not a prerequisite to its receipt.

I like the way that the NLT puts it, "God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God." (Ephesians 2:8 NLT)

Perhaps more literally it says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

A focus on God's grace would be valuable in this discussion for a right (biblical) understanding.

Humbly in the Grip of His Grace...

Some would even say that sanctification itself comes about according to God's grace.

The Parson
Apr 20th 2009, 02:45 PM
Do you think maybe ya'll have covered the issue? Same as many other threads like this one, there never seems to come any kind of agreement. Those that believe that God doesn't keep you still seem to believe that. And those that believe in eternal security, (me included) continue to believe that nothing can take us outta God's hands.

Tell you what, lets close this thread tomorrow and let me think of a way that both sides can be heard without being dismissed. I'll give everyone a chance to make a closing statement here and then shut this one down. I'll then start another with a different format with closer moderation. Sound like a plan?

-SEEKING-
Apr 20th 2009, 02:51 PM
This has to be one of the issues most debated on in Christian beliefs. Crazy thing is I can see very strong arguments for both sides.

The Parson
Apr 20th 2009, 03:01 PM
This has to be one of the issues most debated on in Christian beliefs. Crazy thing is I can see very strong arguments for both sides.Given time, I believe I can give some very compelling proofs. They just have to be considered as both sides of the coin need to. Only way that each argument can be given equal attention though is to make sure the thread is properly mediated.

faithfulfriend
Apr 20th 2009, 03:19 PM
Given time, I believe I can give some very compelling proofs. They just have to be considered as both sides of the coin need to. Only way that each argument can be given equal attention though is to make sure the thread is properly mediated.

What must be understood by all involved in this discussion is that both doctrines cannot be true, thus one side is believing false doctrine.

Christ did not teach two [or more] gospels, two [or more] truth's, two [or more] ways to heaven, and two [or more] different sets of doctrine.

divaD
Apr 20th 2009, 03:29 PM
It seems to me that salvation is conditional, based upon what one does with it. If one continues in the faith, then they shall be saved. These are to whom all the promises apply. These are the ones that can't be plucked out of God's hands..those that remain in the faith.

But if one does not continue in the faith, then the promises can't apply to them. I believe there is more than ample proof in the OT that supports this concept, as well as in the NT.

Of course, how some reason this is..they weren't saved in the first place. That reasoning makes absolutely no sense coming from one who believes in eternal security. Who's to say these folks never believed on Christ in the first place? And if they did at first believe on Christ and did remain in the faith at the beginning, then according to the eternal securists, they would still be saved no matter what, even if they fell away from the faith, yet the eternal securists say they weren't even saved to begin with. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

The Parson
Apr 20th 2009, 03:46 PM
What must be understood by all involved in this discussion is that both doctrines cannot be true, thus one side is believing false doctrine.

Christ did not teach two [or more] gospels, two [or more] truth's, two [or more] ways to heaven, and two [or more] different sets of doctrine.
No, he didn't teach two doctrines but you might want to check the spirit you just used to answer the suggestion. God said, come and let us reason together. Don't you think we are supposed to reason with one another also?

faithfulfriend
Apr 20th 2009, 03:57 PM
God said, come and let us reason together. Don't you think we are supposed to reason with one another also?

That depends on what context you mean.

Once an individual has found truth, they cannot "back down" on that truth and compromise with false teaching now can they? Thus they cannot "reason" with the other teachings in order to "go along to get along." Christ was not ecumenical.

But if someone is being led into all truth or guided into all truth, then yes they can "reason" with others and search the scriptures, studying out each doctrine in order to allow God to show them the complete truth.

It's not God's plan for man to follow man's teaching, but rather God's. No?

The Parson
Apr 20th 2009, 04:39 PM
That depends on what context you mean.

Once an individual has found truth, they cannot "back down" on that truth and compromise with false teaching now can they? Thus they cannot "reason" with the other teachings in order to "go along to get along." Christ was not ecumenical.

But if someone is being led into all truth or guided into all truth, then yes they can "reason" with others and search the scriptures, studying out each doctrine in order to allow God to show them the complete truth.

It's not God's plan for man to follow man's teaching, but rather God's. No?Never said it was however have you ever been proven wrong on anything? Had a misconception in a belief? Misunderstood an intent?

BroRog
Apr 20th 2009, 07:19 PM
Given time, I believe I can give some very compelling proofs. They just have to be considered as both sides of the coin need to. Only way that each argument can be given equal attention though is to make sure the thread is properly mediated.

Okay, here is my closing statement. I don't think OSAS is a Biblical Doctrine, but I think the "Perseverance of the saints" is a Biblical Doctrine. And I don't think the arguments against OSAS are sufficient to deal with the claims made by the doctrine of the "Perseverance of the saints" due to the fact that each doctrine makes a unique and distinctive claim.

At the heart of arguements against OSAS is the Biblical notion that people who come to belief don't always remain in belief. I believe this is indisputable. It's always possible (in some meaningful sense) to become apostate.

On the other hand, the Bible also teaches that under the right conditions, i.e. an honest and good heart for instance, a saint will persevere until the end. In addition, God tests the faith so that the saint may know for certain whether his or her faith is the genuine kind that will last. And finally, I believe that the Holy Spirit helps the saint remain in the faith.

-SEEKING-
Apr 20th 2009, 07:22 PM
Okay, here is my closing statement. I don't think OSAS is a Biblical Doctrine, but I think the "Perseverance of the saints" is a Biblical Doctrine. And I don't think the arguments against OSAS are sufficient to deal with the "Perseverance of the saints" due to the fact that each doctrine makes a unique and distinctive claim.

At the heart of arguements against OSAS is the Biblical notion that people who come to belief don't always remain in belief. I believe this is indisputable. It's always possible (in some meaningful sense) to become apostate.

On the other hand, the Bible also teaches that under the right conditions, i.e. an honest and good heart, a saint will persever until the end. In addtion, God tests the faith so that the saint my know for certain whether his or her faith is the genuine kind that will last. And finally, I believe that the Holy Spirit helps the saint remain in the faith.

I think this pretty much sums it up for me.

The Parson
Apr 20th 2009, 07:23 PM
Good closing statement Rog. Anyone else?

Bandit
Apr 20th 2009, 09:41 PM
Greetings to my brothers in Christ.

The scripture clearly teaches once one is born into God's family he cannot be unborn.
...




Oh, I think the scriptures teach otherwise. What is born can die. Perhaps we can take your scriptures one at a time. What is alive can die.

Bandit
Apr 20th 2009, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by faithfulfriend http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2049458#post2049458)
What must be understood by all involved in this discussion is that both doctrines cannot be true, thus one side is believing false doctrine.

Christ did not teach two [or more] gospels, two [or more] truth's, two [or more] ways to heaven, and two [or more] different sets of doctrine.


No, he didn't teach two doctrines but you might want to check the spirit you just used to answer the suggestion. God said, come and let us reason together. Don't you think we are supposed to reason with one another also?


And what sort of 'spirit' are you using, parson? It seems that you think of yourself as being above the fray.

The Parson
Apr 21st 2009, 01:56 AM
A questioning spirit my friend. Not sure what you mean above the fray but just a questioning spirit.

Bliz
Apr 21st 2009, 05:44 AM
The topic of eternal security is a hot button for many in the Body of Christ.

Despite the Arminian and Calvinist views, we need to reach beyond them to a position that is Biblical.

The point I am trying to make is that the warnings in Scripture about falling away are not to be taken lightly, or dismissed as being untrue or hypothetical, as these warnings should be taken with all seriousness as if they present a real and present danger.

One thing is for sure, To reconcile these two seemingly opposing views, the promises of eternal security as well as the warnings against falling away is not an easy task. Our human tendency is to push beyond the Biblical evidence into some logical system of thought which overstates either the sovereignty of God, or human freedom.

We must learn not to go beyond the things written, and to be content with the full teaching from the Scriptures.

I personally believe that this long standing debate has played a role in producing weak Disciples on both sides of the issue, and it has divided many in the Body of Christ.

I believe that the Gospel demands a response, and that both camps contain portions of truth which lend themselves to the truth revealed in the Scriptures.

The act of receiving is an active, and not a passive thing.

Although we can never earn our inheritance, we must step forward to receive it.

The Bible tells us that God is able to keep us, but it also tells us to keep ourselves in the love of Christ.

My hope is that our fellowship in the Body of Christ will be strengthened in Christian love, and that it will lead to a far more penetrating intimacy with Christ.

Anything apart from this falls short of God's will for our lives.

Blessings to all!

Bliz
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