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Kirby123
Mar 3rd 2009, 10:30 PM
First off i would like to say im not losing my faith. it was just that a few friends of mine, and i, were having a conversation. They are athiests and i have been slowing witnessing to them. Its an online thing so i can't be as up front about it, before when i did taht a person just signed off when i did and has done that every time i bring up the bible ever since.

so anyway, i was slowly sharing my faith with them around this time. And somehow the conversation turned to aliens, and i said blatantly that they weren't real. They argued back that they could be. and in my stupidity i opened up a fight by saying, "if you can believe that aliens are real, something that you can't see at all and have absolutly no evidence for, not to mention that it goes against most modern day science-- then how can you not even give pause to the fact that there might be a God out there?"
(badly worded i know, but its easier to understand of you had heard it)
well then the conversation turned to me defending my faith, i was double teamed and hardly had time to open my bible before another question came up. but then i was asked a question that i couldn't find anywhere in the bible and i had turn tail and leave after it.

The chances of me being the one to lead these two people to Christ are low because of this, but if i am ever asked a question like this again i want to be able to answer heres how it went

Athiest: you believe that murdering is against the law correct?
me: correct
Athiest: and you believe that murdering is a sin?
me: correct
Athiest: Do you believe that God kills people?
(from here i didn't know what to say because i had already seen the trap that he had laid)
me: yes, but i-- (he cut me off)
Athiest: then doesn't that mean that God sins? doesn't that completly shatter your religion?

i tried to say that God was righteous in doing it, and that he doesn't kill for no reason

his reply had something to do with the whole pre-destination believe
"if anyone dies doesn't that mean that God has taken their life because he is in control of everything?"
"so if i good man who has lived a good life, even a christian if you will, who has done very little wrong, would get cancer and die. Doesn't that mean God has taken his life? doesn't that mean God has sinned and is no longer perfect therefore not a God at all?"

i tried to fight back but the argument became circular and wasn't going anywhere, does anyone have a clear answer to this? biblical refference or not?

apothanein kerdos
Mar 3rd 2009, 10:57 PM
It's a logical fallacy of equivocation. He assumes that "murder" and "killing" are synonymous; they're not. To murder someone is to kill someone with malicious intent or without just cause. When God kills, He does so without malicious intent, but with a just cause.

Secondly, who says that God is in control of everything in some fatalistic fashion? Who says that God causes people to die? If anything, the Bible teaches that death is a curse, but that God merely allows it, but doesn't always cause it. This means a person who gets cancer and dies is merely enduring a natural part of life - it doesn't mean God has killed the person.

Finally, who says anyone actually leads a good life? The greatest immoral action a person could commit is to, as fallible beings, is to sin against an infinitely infallible being. Since God is infallible and holy, by sinning against Him and rebelling against Him, we have committed the greatest immoral act. Even when we do practically good things on earth (i.e. feed the hungry, give money to the poor), if we do it in our own glory or do not give glory to God who gave us the capability to do good works (by being made in His image) then we have committed a good act that is still morally evil. In light of this, who's to say that a "good person" who dies didn't deserve death in the eyes of God? After all, if the person is committing the greatest immoral act possible, doesn't the person deserve death?

Kirby123
Mar 3rd 2009, 11:16 PM
Secondly, who says that God is in control of everything in some fatalistic fashion? Who says that God causes people to die? If anything, the Bible teaches that death is a curse, but that God merely allows it, but doesn't always cause it. This means a person who gets cancer and dies is merely enduring a natural part of life - it doesn't mean God has killed the person.

Finally, who says anyone actually leads a good life? The greatest immoral action a person could commit is to, as fallible beings, is to sin against an infinitely infallible being. Since God is infallible and holy, by sinning against Him and rebelling against Him, we have committed the greatest immoral act. Even when we do practically good things on earth (i.e. feed the hungry, give money to the poor), if we do it in our own glory or do not give glory to God who gave us the capability to do good works (by being made in His image) then we have committed a good act that is still morally evil. In light of this, who's to say that a "good person" who dies didn't deserve death in the eyes of God? After all, if the person is committing the greatest immoral act possible, doesn't the person deserve death?

these two points i tried to tell as best i could. but this has given me a better idea of how to answer next time. thank you.

pekoe
Mar 4th 2009, 02:53 AM
Hi Kirby.
One of the biggest guns in the atheist arsenal is the, "your God kills people" argument.

Of course God kills people. Our God is the only One who gives life and He can take it back whenever He wants. The question back to the atheist is, "When God decides to end your life, what are you going to do about it?"

Athanasius
Mar 4th 2009, 04:49 AM
Hi Kirby.
One of the biggest guns in the atheist arsenal is the, "your God kills people" argument.

Of course God kills people. Our God is the only One who gives life and He can take it back whenever He wants. The question back to the atheist is, "When God decides to end your life, what are you going to do about it?"

I wouldn't recommend saying that...

RR van Wyk
Mar 4th 2009, 05:44 AM
Hi Kirby,

It's not an easy thing talking to atheists about God (as we all know), I guess the biggest reason being that their "faith" in that a god doesn't exist is just as strong as yours that God does exist. To argue with them is to run into a brick wall.

I guess the best we can do is to keep on telling atheists about Jesus, what He personaly meens to us and how He totally change our lives.(without offending them offcourse, just in a casual way).

The rest depends on them. Don't even waste your time to go into deeper arguments, it rarely helps anything :)

harryoutdoors
Mar 4th 2009, 06:55 AM
Hello Kirby!

Good to know you are out there fighting in the trenches!

I must tell you that really encourages me to see warriors battling for men's souls!

Funny, how religious atheists get at times...they call God a sinner, murderer and unjust! Ha...some atheists eh? They act like they believe in Him!

God is above the mortal realm of man...sometimes we get trapped into arguments about God as if He is just another man limited to this space-time plane when actually God is the CREATOR of ALL things!

This may sound bizaar but God can do anything He wants to except Lie or something along that line that would deny His GOOD nature...there is no such thing as MURDER when referencing God because murder is killing a FELLOW MAN, WOMAN or CHILD...God is not a human (I'm talking about the GODHEAD or ALL of God and not about the humanity of Christ while on earth)

If there were another God and God killed HIm then we could call that murder...see how ridiculous that would be?
God killing a man or allowing the death of a human is not sin because God is above sin...1 because He is ALL-KNOWING...He knows all about a situation, all about the person involved...all about the timing of a life...all about how eternity is affected by the death of someone...2 because God is ALL PRESENT omnipresent...He is everywhere at all times...He can be with that person during the time of the person's death...He plans and numbers a person's life anyway...3 because God is ALL POWERFUL...He can work all things out for good for all involved even the person who dies...

Atheists are limited to one dimensional thinking...we have the HOLY SPIRIT who guides us into all truth...We need to try and give them a glimpse of our ETERNAL LORD GOD and His MAJESTY!

Hawkins
Mar 4th 2009, 07:54 AM
I think that it's all about His sovereignty and His ultimate responsibility. I do think that He won't deny the saying that "He kills". It is becasue ultimately He can stop death but He chooses not to.

He will have to accept that He's not omnipotent, if He deny the saying that "He kills". That is, He's incapable of stopping death. Yet He's omnipotent. So the choices are, either to accept the ultimate responsibility or to admit the incapability. True God has chosen the former and leave the latter to the gods of other religions.


That said, we died anyway. One way or another. Naturally or die of sickness of various kind, being killed in accidence and disasters, being murdered or committing suicide. We die once anyway. To God, the question is, will we die the second time? To God, whether our lives are saved is determined by whether our souls are saved, not whether our bodies are saved. After walking out of Eden, we die anyway, which is a curse as it is said clearly in the Bible. And when human murders, mostly likely he's going to lose his soul (i.e. your life from God's point of view ). That's why God said, "Don't kill".

popcorn
Mar 4th 2009, 12:30 PM
Keeping arguing about God with atheist is many time wasting your and their time. They dont believe in Christian God or any other God. I mean there is another 33 million Hindu Gods to choose between, if its mismatch problem its all about. lol

However, Explaining for them who Jesus is, and his work done for us. More concretely issue to grasp. And if they refused Jesus, they will probably refuse God also. Right?

Many are wasting to much time with those meaningless discussions. Just end it and go to the lost sheep of this world who are in thirst to know about a Saviour. Give them Jesus!

Many times those atheist are more for swaying away Christians from their belief then wanting to know about God. Probe the situation, and see. Is he interesting in what you have to share, or is it of what HE want to share?

Iam not recommending any new Christian taking challenge before faithfully armored anyway. :no:

Gauntlet
Mar 4th 2009, 03:11 PM
Sometimes it is advantageous to preach the Gospel without using words. Abandon words & rhetoric. Witness with your whole life, your demeanour, with who you are. Some things can be demonstrated but not easily verbalized. How to explain the love of Christ in mere words?

God's love is inexpressible. Words can only describe it.

cindylou
Mar 4th 2009, 05:37 PM
Keeping arguing about God with atheist is many time wasting your and their time. They dont believe in Christian God or any other God. I mean there is another 33 million Hindu Gods to choose between, if its mismatch problem its all about. lol

However, Explaining for them who Jesus is, and his work done for us. More concretely issue to grasp. And if they refused Jesus, they will probably refuse God also. Right?

Many are wasting to much time with those meaningless discussions. Just end it and go to the lost sheep of this world who are in thirst to know about a Saviour. Give them Jesus!

Many times those atheist are more for swaying away Christians from their belief then wanting to know about God. Probe the situation, and see. Is he interesting in what you have to share, or is it of what HE want to share?

Iam not recommending any new Christian taking challenge before faithfully armored anyway. :no:

agreed.

debating religion/spirituality with an athiest is less truth and more about language and presentation anyway. They are on the lookout to trip you up and tear your logic/reasoning apart. They are not interested in the truth.

apothanein kerdos
Mar 4th 2009, 05:54 PM
Sometimes it is advantageous to preach the Gospel without using words. Abandon words & rhetoric. Witness with your whole life, your demeanour, with who you are. Some things can be demonstrated but not easily verbalized. How to explain the love of Christ in mere words?

God's love is inexpressible. Words can only describe it.

As nice as this sounds, it's only part of what the Bible preaches.

Both Paul and Peter are quite clear that the Gospel is to come with words AND actions. So it's not a matter of "letting our actions do the talking" or simply talking without doing action - we have to do both. We have to live the life while at the same time speak the Gospel, so that when we speak and give a defense, our lives can validate what we're preaching.

It's both/and.

ServantofTruth
Mar 4th 2009, 05:56 PM
Perhaps the time would better be spent either in personal private bible study or finding a bible/ prayer group to grow in. Then do mission/ outreach through that group/ church, with more experienced/ mature believers.

Grow by watching how they answer the differcult questions, while you take the more basic gospel message?

SofTy. :pray:

apothanein kerdos
Mar 4th 2009, 05:58 PM
Keeping arguing about God with atheist is many time wasting your and their time. They dont believe in Christian God or any other God. I mean there is another 33 million Hindu Gods to choose between, if its mismatch problem its all about. lol

However, Explaining for them who Jesus is, and his work done for us. More concretely issue to grasp. And if they refused Jesus, they will probably refuse God also. Right?

Many are wasting to much time with those meaningless discussions. Just end it and go to the lost sheep of this world who are in thirst to know about a Saviour. Give them Jesus!

Many times those atheist are more for swaying away Christians from their belief then wanting to know about God. Probe the situation, and see. Is he interesting in what you have to share, or is it of what HE want to share?

Iam not recommending any new Christian taking challenge before faithfully armored anyway. :no:


I would recommend discretion, but even then, we owe people an answer. The point of a debate is not necessarily to sway the other person to your position, but to plant that seed of doubt. My goal isn't to "get people saved," when I debate them, because I'm using a purely intellectual activity. Salvation can only occur when our lives are open and ready for a relationship with Christ - though there is an intellectual base, it is also experiential as well. Debate doesn't beget experience.

What it does do, however, is break down intellectual barriers to Christ. My goal isn't to win the debate, but to plant enough doubt in that person so that though he mock me in the debate, when he puts head down on his pillow at night he loses sleep, realizing he doesn't have an answer to what he said.

My goal, in short, is simply to cause the person to doubt his or her own belief (when debating non-Christians). Once the intellectual barriers are removed, or at least removed enough out of the way, then the Gospel can come in and begin to change the person's life.

Gregg
Mar 5th 2009, 02:50 PM
I am glad that people did not quit on me. I am glad that they took the time to debate with me. I needed some answers. Those answers put doubt in my mind as AK so aptly put.

Kriby, one of the blessings that you have received by debating the atheists is that you now are seeking the answers. These answers will strengthen your faith as well as prepare you for the next time. Even Christians are hungry for answers.

A lot of death that atheists bring up is attached to free will. If God intervened in all of the wrongful deaths, there would not be free will. Free will to choose God means that I am not a robot or a dog. I like to start my discussions with atheists with the concept of free will.

pekoe
Mar 5th 2009, 11:10 PM
Hi Xel'Naga.

I wouldn't recommend saying that...
Why not? The core argument of the atheist position is that God has no right to take anyones life.

When discussing [the concept of] God, the atheist is overjoyed at debating a Christian from the standpoint that humanbeings are equal to God. Once this fallacy is established, God (it is assumed) has no right to take an innocent persons life.

The atheists fail realize that he is nothing more than Gods property and when God punches their ticket, the unbelievers aren't going to say "No"....they are going to go and there is no injustice in it.

Gauntlet
Mar 5th 2009, 11:16 PM
Are we all God's property?

BroRog
Mar 6th 2009, 01:18 AM
First off i would like to say im not losing my faith. it was just that a few friends of mine, and i, were having a conversation. They are athiests and i have been slowing witnessing to them. Its an online thing so i can't be as up front about it, before when i did taht a person just signed off when i did and has done that every time i bring up the bible ever since.

so anyway, i was slowly sharing my faith with them around this time. And somehow the conversation turned to aliens, and i said blatantly that they weren't real. They argued back that they could be. and in my stupidity i opened up a fight by saying, "if you can believe that aliens are real, something that you can't see at all and have absolutly no evidence for, not to mention that it goes against most modern day science-- then how can you not even give pause to the fact that there might be a God out there?"
(badly worded i know, but its easier to understand of you had heard it)
well then the conversation turned to me defending my faith, i was double teamed and hardly had time to open my bible before another question came up. but then i was asked a question that i couldn't find anywhere in the bible and i had turn tail and leave after it.

The chances of me being the one to lead these two people to Christ are low because of this, but if i am ever asked a question like this again i want to be able to answer heres how it went

Athiest: you believe that murdering is against the law correct?
me: correct
Athiest: and you believe that murdering is a sin?
me: correct
Athiest: Do you believe that God kills people?
(from here i didn't know what to say because i had already seen the trap that he had laid)
me: yes, but i-- (he cut me off)
Athiest: then doesn't that mean that God sins? doesn't that completly shatter your religion?

i tried to say that God was righteous in doing it, and that he doesn't kill for no reason

his reply had something to do with the whole pre-destination believe
"if anyone dies doesn't that mean that God has taken their life because he is in control of everything?"
"so if i good man who has lived a good life, even a christian if you will, who has done very little wrong, would get cancer and die. Doesn't that mean God has taken his life? doesn't that mean God has sinned and is no longer perfect therefore not a God at all?"

i tried to fight back but the argument became circular and wasn't going anywhere, does anyone have a clear answer to this? biblical refference or not?

Tell the atheist that God has the right of the author.

We first establish that God created everything. Second, we affirm that the creator has the right to make from the same clay any pot he desires. Third, we acknowledge that the act of creation is a form of self-expression, which gives the author ownership rights over his or her creation. Murder is not only against the law, it violates God's moral right of ownership over his creation.

Given this view then, murder is defined as the taking of a life that doesn't belong to the perpetrator. Life is a gift from God, but God retains ownership rights over our life. However, since God owns all that he creates, he does not murder when he puts an end to a life.

At the end of the flood event, God declared that if a man takes another mans life, by man will his life be taken. That is, God has given the state the responsibility to give the death penalty to those who murder. The moral right of authorship is transferable in certain cases. In this case, God has given the state the responsibility to punish murder with an execution and this execution itself is not murder.

Capital punishment is homicide that is sanctioned by the state, which is ordained by God. In such an event, the homicide is said to be non-criminal homicide. When God takes a life directly, he also is not committing a crime.

Gauntlet
Mar 6th 2009, 05:48 AM
Is there biblical support for capital punishment?

Is it God's will that those who murder should be themselves put to death? If so, where in the BIble is this stated?

iruntherace4Him
Mar 6th 2009, 12:55 PM
First, I think you said the right thing here to these guys. Its true what you said... But I would have taken the conversation in a different direction. I would have explained to them who is behind the UFO's. Biblically! They are real and have been here from the beginning of time, and this truth may have taken the discussion on a different path, who know's? Check out Chuck Missler's web site, you may find this science minded Christian think tank to be helpful in discussing things in the future of this nature.

Gauntlet
Mar 6th 2009, 12:58 PM
Did the prophet Ezekiel see a UFO?

BroRog
Mar 6th 2009, 02:25 PM
Is there biblical support for capital punishment?

Is it God's will that those who murder should be themselves put to death? If so, where in the BIble is this stated?

Genesis 9 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.

"The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

"Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

"As for you, be fruitful and multiply;Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."

pekoe
Mar 7th 2009, 01:42 AM
Hi Gauntlet.

Are we all Gods property?
Yep!
The earth is the Lords and all it contains, the world and all who dwell in it. Ps.24:1

Atheists have no understanding of this truth. If they did, they wouldn't ask such foolish questions.

Gauntlet
Mar 7th 2009, 01:54 AM
In what sense does God "own" us? Is it because He is our Creator? Naturally, because who owns a thing but its maker? Who has creative control over a work of fiction but the writer? (Earthly writers of course must contend with editors, agents, publishing houses, etc. ;))

If each of us are owned by God, can we have any ownership over anything ourselves apart from the ownership that God bestows? Do we own our own bodies?

The Word tells us in no uncertain terms that we as humans are dust and to dust we will return. Everything human is impermanent, including all our sand-castle kingdoms and sand-castle politics.

pekoe
Mar 8th 2009, 08:53 PM
Brother, you said it right! Today in church, the Pastor spoke on Job 1. What a fitting chapter for this thread.