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reformedct
Mar 9th 2009, 08:29 PM
In this thread WE WILL ASSUME THAT WATER BAPTISM IS THE MEANS THROUGH WHICH CHRISTIANS RECIEVE INITIAL FORGIVENESS OF SINS.(if you would like to argue wether water baptism is the means through which forgiveness is given please vist the other thread open on that subject)

now, if forgiveness of sins is had upon water baptism, should we get water baptised everytime we sin afterwards, or simply confess sins. please use Scripture to support either position. if we can be forgiven afterward withoutw water what does that say about the water?

Tomlane
Mar 9th 2009, 09:04 PM
You stated:

Forgiveness of sins after water baptism
In this thread WE WILL ASSUME THAT WATER BAPTISM IS THE MEANS THROUGH WHICH CHRISTIANS RECIEVE INITIAL FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Would please show us from scripture where it says a person receives initial forgiveness? I sure would like to see that.

Thank you, Tomlane

reformedct
Mar 9th 2009, 09:10 PM
You stated:


Would please show us from scripture where it says a person receives initial forgiveness? I sure would like to see that.

Thank you, Tomlane

thank you for posting
acts 2:38

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


as i said we are assuming in this thread that the act of water baptism is where we recieve forgiveness and that we arent forgiven until we get in the water. ( i personally dont believe this but i am playing "devils advocate")

Tomlane
Mar 9th 2009, 09:17 PM
LOL, OK I understand Reformedct, I'll keep my big mouth shut. :lol:

I understand now and thanks. I'll keep looking an see what kind of comments you get.

Have a good and and may the Lord bless your efforts, Tomlane

embankmentlb
Mar 9th 2009, 09:24 PM
God forgave everyones sins regardless of Baptism or not. I think there was this guy called Jesus that had something to do with that.

keck553
Mar 9th 2009, 09:33 PM
God forgave everyones sins regardless of Baptism or not. I think there was this guy called Jesus that had something to do with that.

Amen. God doesn't need the aid of the mikvah to save us.

15 characters

reformedct
Mar 9th 2009, 09:33 PM
God forgave everyones sins regardless of Baptism or not. I think there was this guy called Jesus that had something to do with that.


lol as i said i fully agree but i am playing devils advocate.


i have yet to get an answer on this. if we are literally not forgiven until water baptism, how come we dont follow through and get water baptised everytime we sin afterwards? all of the sudden we dont need water to forgive us?

still waiting for an answer...im sure someone has a good argument though...

Tomlane
Mar 9th 2009, 09:55 PM
As most any physical ordinance found in Judaism, just about everyone of them was repeated over an over because they were not a permanent solution except for circumcision and had to do with being a symbol of being cut off from the world and being holy. All ordinances including circumcision were a type or shadow of Christ. Now that we have the reality of Christ and have his finished work for us as a one time cure for all time we have no need for anything other then spiritual baptism for we indeed worship in spirit and not ordinances that were nailed to the cross and abolished that never did satisfy God for the forgiveness of sin. God demands blood for sin {death} and only Christ's keeping the law perfectly for us made it possible for Him to be a perfectly white {sinless} with out spot or blemish sacrifice to be slaughtered for our sins and take our place and become guilty for our sins. Water baptism was strictly a Jewish ordinance for a public show of repentance if a Jew believed their promised Messiah was soon coming. John had been foretold about his coming in the wilderness to prepare for their promised one. Water never saved anyone and only got them wet and that is all it does today. In fact water baptism done today as an outward sign of an inward work. God says that is a sin, because that is never found in any of God's instructions for salvation or that we should worship in symbolism.

Romans 14:23 *And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Sorry I couldn't keep it in any longer. lol

Tomlane

ServantofTruth
Mar 9th 2009, 10:05 PM
Why would you want to play the 'devil's advocate' on a Christian site? ;) SofTy.

reformedct
Mar 9th 2009, 10:12 PM
Why would you want to play the 'devil's advocate' on a Christian site? ;) SofTy.

LOL your right. i am playing advocate for those who believe that we arent forgiven until water baptism

reformedct
Mar 10th 2009, 01:47 AM
still waiting.......:rolleyes:

uric3
Mar 10th 2009, 02:32 AM
Sure I'll bite... so I guess the first thing to cover is how do we get forgiveness of sins once we are a Christian?

I think the answer to that question can be found in Acts 8:13-24 for now we will just notice verses 18-ff which states:

"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me."


Sorry if its hard to read... I went rather quickly I'll check back later let me know if you need any clarification I am sure its not to easy to read since I posted so quickly... anyway hope to talk more soon.


So I think we can all agree that once we are a Christian like Simon here we are to repent and pray to God for forgiveness of our sins. Because even after we obey we sin and fall short just as Simon did in this passage.


On to part two so does God hear the prayers of everyone? In short the answer is NO. We can see this from passages such as John 9:31; Psalm 34:5 66:18; Proverbs 15:29, 28:9; Isa 1:15; etc;



"31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."


"5The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous And His ears are open to their cry."


Those two should do you can read the other passages as well if you'd like. However the 2nd point is God doesn't hear the prayers of the unrightous or those of sinners... I think based upon these passages we can agree upon that.


So how do we get this avenue of prayer so we can ask for forgivness of sins that we mentioned in part1 up top?


Part 3 to get there we must obey the gospel and do what God requires of us. Obviously we have to hear the word Rom 10:14-17 states that...


Note vs 17 "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."


We have to believe that which we have heard if we don't have faith we can't be pleasing unto God. Heb 11:6


"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."


We can't be pleasing unto God without faith.


We must confess Christ as Lord... Rom 10:10; Matt 10:32



"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."


"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."


We must repent Acts 17:30, 2nd Peter 3:9


"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"


"...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


So far we can see we have to hear the word, believe it, confess Christ, and repent. The last phase would be to be baptized.


1st Peter 3:20-21


"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"


We see baptism saves us... just like confession (...confession is made unto salvation...) and its not just getting wet etc its answering God with a good conscience.


Also note Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."


We see here that Paul is told to be baptized and wash his sins away confessing Christ.



So what does this do once we hear the word believe it and obey it with confession, repentance, and baptism?


We are made a new creature Rom 6:1-8 we see that we that when we are baptized we kill out old man of sinfulness and unrightousness that God wouldn't hear in part to. Into newness of life, we are a new creature if you will a Christian. Our old man of sin is gone at this point according to the Paul here in Rom 6. We have put on Christ as stated in Gal 3:27 and are a new creature 2nd Cor 5:16-18 once again we kill the old man and are a new creature our old life of sin passes away.


So at this point if we sin and fall short we no longer need water to cleanse of our sins through the blood of Christ. We have the avenue of prayer for that now.


Once again look at Acts 8:13-ff we see Simon obeyed believed and was baptized... but then he fell short... and what did the aposltes tell him to do? Be baptized again? No... to pray for forgiveness... however before you have that avenue of prayer we are first forgiven by obeying the gospel of Christ.

losthorizon
Mar 10th 2009, 02:56 AM
In this thread WE WILL ASSUME THAT WATER BAPTISM IS THE MEANS THROUGH WHICH CHRISTIANS RECIEVE INITIAL FORGIVENESS OF SINS.(if you would like to argue wether water baptism is the means through which forgiveness is given please vist the other thread open on that subject)

now, if forgiveness of sins is had upon water baptism, should we get water baptised everytime we sin afterwards, or simply confess sins. please use Scripture to support either position. if we can be forgiven afterward withoutw water what does that say about the water?
Baptism is a one-time event at conversion - after conversion if we continue to walk in the light we have cleansing in His blood...
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7What the NT says of baptism in water is that it is a burial – the old man of sin goes into the water a sinner and through the operation of the Holy Spirit the sins of the old man are remitted by the blood of Christ. The new born man rises up out of the water a new creature in Christ Jesus - the body of sin destroyed. After baptism the new born man in Christ continues to “walk in the light as he is in the light” and the blood of Christ cleanses him of ALL SIN.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:3-6 (KJV)

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 10th 2009, 04:45 PM
How is their forgivenss?

Doesn't the Bible state that without the 'shedding' of Blood.. there will be no 'forgiveness'

Whose Blood was shed on Calvary?

isn't Forgivenss granted thru the Shed Blood of Jesus the Christ..

or have we made the 'forgiveness of sins' linked to and based on sacramental works...

Baptism done by a born again believer from Above will be done thru Obedience to the Word...

Forgiveness comes thru His Shed Blood and the Sprinkling of it ......

BHS
Mar 10th 2009, 05:14 PM
Baptism is a one-time event at conversion - after conversion if we continue to walk in the light we have cleansing in His blood...
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7What the NT says of baptism in water is that it is a burial – the old man of sin goes into the water a sinner and through the operation of the Holy Spirit the sins of the old man are remitted by the blood of Christ. The new born man rises up out of the water a new creature in Christ Jesus - the body of sin destroyed. After baptism the new born man in Christ continues to “walk in the light as he is in the light” and the blood of Christ cleanses him of ALL SIN.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:3-6 (KJV)

RIGHT ON!!!

The 1 John1:7 passage in the Greek indicates this a continual cleansing as long as one "walks in the light".

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Though some have the theology that baptism is not "required" for forgiveness, we cannot ignore what the Scripture says about it. Notably it is God Who forgives, as we walkout the faith (which includes baptism) we have in Jesus, our Messiah.

Blessings,
BHS

uric3
Mar 10th 2009, 08:30 PM
How is their forgivenss?

Doesn't the Bible state that without the 'shedding' of Blood.. there will be no 'forgiveness'

Whose Blood was shed on Calvary?

isn't Forgivenss granted thru the Shed Blood of Jesus the Christ..

or have we made the 'forgiveness of sins' linked to and based on sacramental works...

Baptism done by a born again believer from Above will be done thru Obedience to the Word...

Forgiveness comes thru His Shed Blood and the Sprinkling of it ......

Agree 110% that without the bloodshed we would have no forgiveness. Question is when do we come into contact with that blood for the washing away of our sins. According to scripture its when we are baptized and put on Christ. As I pointed out in my 1st post. If it happens at a different time please post scriptures.

reformedct
Mar 10th 2009, 08:35 PM
Agree 110% that without the bloodshed we would have no forgiveness. Question is when do we come into contact with that blood for the washing away of our sins. According to scripture its when we are baptized and put on Christ. As I pointed out in my 1st post. If it happens at a different time please post scriptures.

please lets remember that in this thread we are assuming that forgiveness comes at water baptism so lets please stay on topic. there is another thread open to argue at what point we are forgiven

losthorizon
Mar 11th 2009, 04:05 AM
RIGHT ON!!!

The 1 John1:7 passage in the Greek indicates this a continual cleansing as long as one "walks in the light".

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Though some have the theology that baptism is not "required" for forgiveness, we cannot ignore what the Scripture says about it. Notably it is God Who forgives, as we walkout the faith (which includes baptism) we have in Jesus, our Messiah.

Blessings,
BHS
Thank God we have Christ as our advocate and propitiation for all our sins...
Christ is our advocate
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

To know God is to keep His commandments
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:1-6 (KJV)

Tomlane
Mar 11th 2009, 05:33 AM
Everyone's sins were washed in the blood at Clavery and not when you are water baptized as that only gets you wet. We are justified the moment our hearts are right by putting our complete trust in Christ for his one time work on the cross.

When Christ shed is blood and went to hell for us that satisfied God's righteousness for all sin, once and for all. Christ doesnt wash us for sin every time someone is saved that was done at the cross. If it was connected to water, then no one's name would be in the book of life. God has a fore knowlege of every one who would except Him before he laid the fountations of the world. What Christ did for us 2000 years ago was a one time thing. When you leave this life without being born again then your name is blotted out. That is why when Christ opens the book of life and sees peoples names blotted out it is because they refused the gift. No one ever went to hell for the sins they have committed because Christ already has. Everyone goes to hell for refusing what Christ has already done for them. Too many people are so eager to do something for their salvation like gettting wet is amazing. We are saved when we simply accept what Christ has already done. Whey your heart is right by putting your complete trust in what Christ has done for you, then you are born again, and that means Christ puts His Holy Spirit into your body and gives you joy and a knowlege that your sins are gone completely, and no water is required or of any kind of works othr than by believing by faith no works please. Those who think they need to do something probably should aks God to show them their heart as to whither they are saved or not.

Ephesians 2:8 *For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 *Not of works, lest any man should boast.

uric3
Mar 11th 2009, 03:58 PM
Everyone's sins were washed in the blood at Clavery and not when you are water baptized as that only gets you wet. We are justified the moment our hearts are right by putting our complete trust in Christ for his one time work on the cross.

When Christ shed is blood and went to hell for us that satisfied God's righteousness for all sin, once and for all. Christ doesnt wash us for sin every time someone is saved that was done at the cross. If it was connected to water, then no one's name would be in the book of life. God has a fore knowlege of every one who would except Him before he laid the fountations of the world. What Christ did for us 2000 years ago was a one time thing. When you leave this life without being born again then your name is blotted out. That is why when Christ opens the book of life and sees peoples names blotted out it is because they refused the gift. No one ever went to hell for the sins they have committed because Christ already has. Everyone goes to hell for refusing what Christ has already done for them. Too many people are so eager to do something for their salvation like gettting wet is amazing. We are saved when we simply accept what Christ has already done. Whey your heart is right by putting your complete trust in what Christ has done for you, then you are born again, and that means Christ puts His Holy Spirit into your body and gives you joy and a knowlege that your sins are gone completely, and no water is required or of any kind of works othr than by believing by faith no works please. Those who think they need to do something probably should aks God to show them their heart as to whither they are saved or not.

Ephesians 2:8 *For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 *Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I agree with you to that sins where washed away at Calvary however one has to accept that salvation. I am sure you have to agree that the Bible has to harmonize. So Getting Wet as you call it doesn't seem to fit 1st Peter 3:20-21

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Even Peter says its not getting WET its not washing away the filth of the flesh as if you was taking a Bath. Its being obedience to God so its not a work any man can boost of... your just doing what God ask of you?

Faith itself is a work as stated by Christ in John 6:29-29

"Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.""

They ask what can they do to be doing the works of God... and Christ tells the the work you need to do is believe on him whom he has sent.

So baptism isn't a work one can boost of we are just obeying what God asks of us.

Here is an interesting thought to go around this... we have the conversion of Paul in Acts 9:1-20

If saw was saved at the point on the road to Damascus he is by far the saddest convert I have ever seen. He wouldn't even eat or drink in verse 9, he wasn't himself again or happy again until after verse 18 which is when he obeyed the gospel... once he did that he then ate and carried on normally. Also not Acts 22:16 etc...

Also note Acts 16:23-34 we see there the sense of urgency in verse 33 if it was un-important etc why do it in the middle of the night... look at Acts 8:26-ff in the middle of no where on the side of the road the eunuch obeyed why the urgency to do so in the middle of no where going down the road?

It has to do with it being part of becoming a Christian... Mark 16:16; 1st Peter 3:20-21 and all these passages point out that its something everyone did ASAP it was never put off and even Peter commanded it in Acts 10:47-48 and as stated in my earlier post its the point one becomes a new creature a new man, Rom 6 shows that.

Its mentioned so much and these passages are there for a reason... why do ppl want to toss it aside when its a fundamental teaching of the NT. You can't find a conversion in the NT under NT order that it doesn't happen... its that important.

Tomlane
Mar 11th 2009, 05:34 PM
I agree with you to that sins where washed away at Calvary however one has to accept that salvation. I am sure you have to agree that the Bible has to harmonize. So Getting Wet as you call it doesn't seem to fit 1st Peter 3:20-21

Uric I agree with you we have to accept the free gift for salvation. No one dies for their sins for those have been forgiven, The one sin that can't be forgiven for is rejecting the free gift. I believe we are justified the moment we are born again with our spiritual birth.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

My question to you is: How is the above having a bearing on the subject of salvation. All I see in it that the ark was a type or shadow of Christ and by their being in it they were saved from the curse of God because of their faith in the Lord. Would you care to elaborate on it? thanks

Even Peter says its not getting WET its not washing away the filth of the flesh as if you was taking a Bath. Its being obedience to God so its not a work any man can boost of... your just doing what God ask of you?

Uric, I'll like to answer your quetion with a verse of scripture and yes it doing what the Lord has ordained of us for salvation: Romans 10:10 *For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


I have never found one verse of scripture that tied water in with salvation. Anyone who does I believe is a false doctrine and is of the god of this world.

Uric stated:
Faith itself is a work as stated by Christ in John 6:29-29

I wish you had taken this further for some may think you were referring to a work we must do. I hope that was not your intent. I have pasted these verses below to show that the answer is found in verse 29, and it states it is the work of God that saves us when we believe.


John 6:29 *Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 *They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 *Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 *Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 *For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 *Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 *And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 *But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 *All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 *For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 *And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he


"Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.""


Uric, Bingo!


Here is an interesting thought to go around this... we have the conversion of Paul in Acts 9:1-20

Yes that was an interesting conversion for Paul and I believe the Lord did it that way is because Paul being a Jew who's heart was right but his faith in the wrong place having God speak speak to him was because of God's dealings with Israel were all in the physical realm as all of God's dealing with as was their physical laws and blessings.
Just as water baptism was a physical, ceremonial baptism for Jew who require a sign and that is also why the Holy Spirit who being spirit came as physical tongues of fire and a mighty rushing wind and they spoke in tongues.

1 Corinthians 1:22 *For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

You lost me on the rest of your quotes as it got kind of muddled up for me sir. Sorry, guess I'm not as smart as you are to see how that is connect to subject at hand. :giveup:

Tomlane

losthorizon
Mar 12th 2009, 03:03 AM
I have never found one verse of scripture that tied water in with salvation. Anyone who does I believe is a false doctrine and is of the god of this world.


And how do you explain the words of Peter that in some sense “baptism doth also now save us”? Peter has no problem connecting the dots between "saved by water", and "baptism doth also now save us". Do you really think he served "the god of this world" or did he write these words by the influence of the Holy Spirit? I think you need to re-think...
“…eight souls were saved by water…The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

Tomlane
Mar 12th 2009, 05:01 AM
And how do you explain the words of Peter that in some sense “baptism doth also now save us”? Peter has no problem connecting the dots between "saved by water", and "baptism doth also now save us". Do you really think he served "the god of this world" or did he write these words by the influence of the Holy Spirit? I think you need to re-think...
“…eight souls were saved by water…The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

One big problem with those who have put their faith in water baptism instead of Christ have to do just as you stated, you have to connect the dots. Not once is it mentioned in scripture about connecting the dots as you stated but God does command believers to compare scripture with scripture so we won't be ashamed. Connecting the dots is not walking by faith but by having confidence in our carnal minds that can reason God's word.

I noticed you did give a good verse about putting away the filth of the flesh. I wonder if you know what that means? Filth of the flesh is our carnal, sinful being that we inherited from Adam. You certainly can't wash the filth of the flesh {sin} and have a clean conscience before God with using the works which in this case would be immersing one's sinful or filthy flesh in water. I notice you only gave me one scripture only and that one had nothing whatsoever to do with water baptism. The only way we can be made clean is by being put into {spiritual baptism} into Christ. That is a spiritual operation done only by God just by believing and nothing is ever said about water baptism a false doctrine by those would rather believe a lie.

God never made anyone clean or having Christ's righteousness with works of the flesh such as water baptism.

It is believing God from his word only.

John 15:3 *Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

This next verse describes many modern day Pharisees who have put their salvation in a works ordinance such as water baptism. The Pharisees love the law but not God's loving kindness or grace.

Luke 11:39 *And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

We are saved only by our belief in what Christ has done for us and what he has done: He has done 100% and we can't take credit for any of it.

1 John 5:10 *¶He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:1 *¶Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Peter 2:6 *Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. {part of being confounded in believing in false doctrine such as water baptism for salvation and make Christ their stumbling block.}

1 John 5:13 *These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 3:23 *¶And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Corinthians 1:21 *For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.



I have given many scriptures about faith and believing God and not one of them mentions water baptism.

I could have listed dozens of more scripture and not one of them mentions water baptism either.

John knew his water baptism was useless for salvation for John asked Christ what you need my baptism for, for you will baptize with fire and spirit.

Wouldn't you rather put your faith in Christ who can baptize you with His Holy spirit just from believing then have your soul lost because of a false doctrine?

Just as this next verse implies, Buried with him in baptism, and God sees us as already risen with him because of faith {not water} it is faith of the operation of God who raised Christ from the dead and God's power alone is what saves any of us who believe and we are baptized or put into Christ.

Colossians 2:12 *Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Galatians 3:27 *For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. {Spiritual baptism for water only gets you wet}

Why not cease from a works program of the ordinance of water and enter into Christ's rest and let him be your Sabbath, 7 days a week Just a Paul advised the Hebrew believers?

Hebrews 4:10 *For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

uric3
Mar 12th 2009, 03:36 PM
Uric I agree with you we have to accept the free gift for salvation. No one dies for their sins for those have been forgiven, The one sin that can't be forgiven for is rejecting the free gift. I believe we are justified the moment we are born again with our spiritual birth.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

My question to you is: How is the above having a bearing on the subject of salvation. All I see in it that the ark was a type or shadow of Christ and by their being in it they were saved from the curse of God because of their faith in the Lord. Would you care to elaborate on it? thanks

Even Peter says its not getting WET its not washing away the filth of the flesh as if you was taking a Bath. Its being obedience to God so its not a work any man can boost of... your just doing what God ask of you?

Uric, I'll like to answer your quetion with a verse of scripture and yes it doing what the Lord has ordained of us for salvation: Romans 10:10 *For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


I have never found one verse of scripture that tied water in with salvation. Anyone who does I believe is a false doctrine and is of the god of this world.

Uric stated:

I wish you had taken this further for some may think you were referring to a work we must do. I hope that was not your intent. I have pasted these verses below to show that the answer is found in verse 29, and it states it is the work of God that saves us when we believe.


John 6:29 *Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 *They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 *Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 *Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 *For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 *Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 *And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 *But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 *All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 *For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 *And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he


"Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.""


Uric, Bingo!



Yes that was an interesting conversion for Paul and I believe the Lord did it that way is because Paul being a Jew who's heart was right but his faith in the wrong place having God speak speak to him was because of God's dealings with Israel were all in the physical realm as all of God's dealing with as was their physical laws and blessings.
Just as water baptism was a physical, ceremonial baptism for Jew who require a sign and that is also why the Holy Spirit who being spirit came as physical tongues of fire and a mighty rushing wind and they spoke in tongues.

1 Corinthians 1:22 *For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

You lost me on the rest of your quotes as it got kind of muddled up for me sir. Sorry, guess I'm not as smart as you are to see how that is connect to subject at hand. :giveup:

Tomlane

I apologize if you thought I was insulting your intelligence I never intended to do that. So my apologizes if you took it that way. As for the other verses they are very important to the subject at hand. Lets look at them one more time... from my earlier post.

"Also note Acts 16:23-34 we see there the sense of urgency in verse 33 if it was un-important etc why do it in the middle of the night... look at Acts 8:26-ff in the middle of no where on the side of the road the eunuch obeyed why the urgency to do so in the middle of no where going down the road?

It has to do with it being part of becoming a Christian... Mark 16:16; 1st Peter 3:20-21 and all these passages point out that its something everyone did ASAP it was never put off and even Peter commanded it in Acts 10:47-48 and as stated in my earlier post its the point one becomes a new creature a new man, Rom 6 shows that."

What I was trying to point out in my earlier post was this... we have these examples of conversions in Acts 16:23-34, Acts 8:26-ff, Acts 10:1-ff notice verse 47-48; Acts 19:1-7, etc... and what you'll notice in every conversion in the NT everyone is baptized in water. There is not one not one example of anyone obeying the gospel and not being baptized ASAP. Look at Acts 8:26-ff the eunuch is baptized in the middle of no where on the side of the road. In Acts 16 the jailer and in family in the middle of the night the same hour they heard the gospel, etc...

So we see two things in all these accounts.

A.) When the Gospel was preached, baptism was preached... its inferred because everyone of them are baptized ASAP.

B.) They are all baptized in water and this continues throughout the entire NT.

So what can we gather... it was important to salvation otherwise there would be no urgency. Why do it the same hour, on the side of the road, in the middle of the night, etc...

If it was a sign to other Christians why not wait till the next time they got together and do it in front of the church when it was gathered together. Why because its not a sign or a symbol its what God requires of us. Its when we put on Christ Rom 6, etc...

If you can show me one example of someone in the NT and under NT order that wasn't baptized in their conversion then your stance would hold water so to speak. The NT just doesn't support it because when you look at the NT as a whole you get the whole picture.

Yes you can take Rom 10:10 by itself and say only confession is needed...
I can take 1st Peter 3:20-21 by itself and say only baptism is needed...
You could take John 3:16 and say only faith is needed...
I could take 2nd Peter 3:9 by itself and say all need to do is repent...

But what you'll see is that all of them are just as important as the other... and when you look at the examples we have of NT Christians obeying the gospel all those things are present. Look at Acts 8:26-ff you pretty much have all of them laid out in that one example... he shows faith, he confesses Christ and is baptized on the side of the road.. and I'm 99.9999% for sure he repented. If you look at Acts 19:1-7 you only see faith and baptism, same thing with Acts 8:1-26 with Simon and the others... you always see them hand in hand... for Jews and Gentiles a like.

In closing if you take the NT as a whole as you should you can't just take one passage and make it stand higher than the rest... all the passages together point to all those things mentioned above to be part of the process of obeying the gospel.

And it is not of works lest any man show boost we are just doing what God commands!

uric3
Mar 12th 2009, 05:04 PM
One big problem with those who have put their faith in water baptism instead of Christ have to do just as you stated, you have to connect the dots. Not once is it mentioned in scripture about connecting the dots as you stated but God does command believers to compare scripture with scripture so we won't be ashamed. Connecting the dots is not walking by faith but by having confidence in our carnal minds that can reason God's word.

I noticed you did give a good verse about putting away the filth of the flesh. I wonder if you know what that means? Filth of the flesh is our carnal, sinful being that we inherited from Adam. You certainly can't wash the filth of the flesh {sin} and have a clean conscience before God with using the works which in this case would be immersing one's sinful or filthy flesh in water. I notice you only gave me one scripture only and that one had nothing whatsoever to do with water baptism. The only way we can be made clean is by being put into {spiritual baptism} into Christ. That is a spiritual operation done only by God just by believing and nothing is ever said about water baptism a false doctrine by those would rather believe a lie.

God never made anyone clean or having Christ's righteousness with works of the flesh such as water baptism.

It is believing God from his word only.


Interesting post but when you look at 1st Peter 3:20-21 how can you show filth of the flesh is sin? Sin has nothing to do with our flesh being tainted... its out spirit thats tainted thats what lives on not our fleshly bodies... The passage is pointing out that water baptism isn't like taking a bath to wash away dirt and just get wet so to speak. Its to wash our spirit clean and answering in a good conscience to God. Its a step of Faith just like Namman in 2nd Kings 5... it doesn't make sense in our carnal minds to be baptized in water we look at it as getting wet... taking a bath. However its more than that just like in Nammans case... its a step in faith showing that you trust God an will obey his commands even if it doesn't make sense to you.

I noticed you you mention connecting the dots... thats what a lot of people lack today... they want to take one passage here and one passage there and says thats it... nothing more... however i showed you in my last post this is not so... I'll wait until you show me a example of someone converted in the NT where water baptism was not present... or a passage that states faith ONLY or something of that sort... as shown before I can show you passages such as

Rom 10:10 for confession unto salvation but you don't see the word only there
John 3:16 Faith " same as above its not only
2nd Peter 3:9 " same here its not repentance only
1st peter 3:20-21 same here not that only.

As show in all the example all those are a factor and are equally important...

You won't find a passage that states you need only one of those things... what you will find is passages stating that they are a part of salvation and in examples you will see two or more of them mentioned everytime and the rest are inferred because obviously you can't have repentance with out faith or confession with out faith etc...

So as stated before if you can come up with a passage that states ONLY this is needed or an example of only one of them being used then you arguement will hold water... other wise the NT rips it appart with all the passages and examples I have posted.

Veretax
Mar 12th 2009, 05:30 PM
Just one problem. If this is true, what about the Thief on the Cross? He didn't have a chance to be water baptized. In fact it sounds from the gospels that Jesus did not baptize anyone directly (except maybe the 12), but the disciples appear to have. My question would then be is it this 'water baptism' that saves, or is it the true baptism within a person, that is signified by water baptism to us outwardly that does the work of forgiveness?

(I disagree with the premise of this thread, so tried to put my questions into the context you want, but they are questions I think would need answered if you assume that water baptism was for forgiveness.)

uric3
Mar 12th 2009, 06:02 PM
Just one problem. If this is true, what about the Thief on the Cross? He didn't have a chance to be water baptized. In fact it sounds from the gospels that Jesus did not baptize anyone directly (except maybe the 12), but the disciples appear to have. My question would then be is it this 'water baptism' that saves, or is it the true baptism within a person, that is signified by water baptism to us outwardly that does the work of forgiveness?

(I disagree with the premise of this thread, so tried to put my questions into the context you want, but they are questions I think would need answered if you assume that water baptism was for forgiveness.)

Good point thats why I stated the you can't find an example of anyone in the NT under NT order the NT didn't come into affect until after the death of Christ. Heb 9:13-18 notice verse 17

"17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

Christ was alive on the cross the NT wasn't in affect yet... he hadn't completed nailed it to the cross as stated in Col 2 until his death. Also note that baptism in the Father Son and Holy Spirit was never taught yet at that point. It wasn't until after the resurrection that Christ gave them the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Matt 28:19

" 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

So they wouldn't have known to do this until after the thief died...

Also note Mark 2:9-10 Christ has the ability to forgive sins while he was on earth. Now that he is ascended on high and at the right hand of God we are forgiven by his blood by obeying his will. Thus Acts 22:16

" 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Also note Acts 19:1-7 Johns Baptism wasn't good enough and replaced... thus those twelve are baptized again into Christ.

So I think that gives a sound Bible proven answer to that problem.

Once againif you can find a passage that states Faith "ONLY" or an example where only one of the things mentioned earlier was used the argument would hold water. You just can't find it scripture don't support it, every example has more than one listed and you can't find a passages that states only this or only that. They are all equally important

Faith John 3:16
Confession Rom 10:10
Repentance 2nd Peter 3:9
Baptism 1st Peter 3:20-21

All of those passages state that portion is to salvation or saves us... all four go together and work together and in every example of someone becoming a Christian in the NT and under NT order(after the death of Christ) you will see Faith + Baptism or Faith + confession + baptism etc you never see one alone. The others are inferred such as repentance or confession... Acts 8 once again shows a great example... as well as the other passages mentioned above.

Faith + Confession + Repentance + Baptism are all important and all part of the equation that is laid out in the Bible.

Veretax
Mar 12th 2009, 06:12 PM
I do not believe baptism is a requirement for salvation... However, I think it is very important nonetheless.

What do you make of this verse then? Since you said 'no command' had been given to Baptize before he died...


Jn 4:1-4 (NKJV)

4 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 4 But He needed to go through Samaria.

John 4:1-4 (NKJV)


This may be the only mention that the disciples were baptized. I thought there was another in another gospel but haven't been able to find it. Truthfully though, it is possible that they did the same baptism as John, but that really isn't specified here, so it may be a moot and irrelevant point :/

I will add that baptism is perhaps familiar to the jews as the ceremonial washing that went on at the temple.

Butch5
Mar 12th 2009, 07:17 PM
Everyone's sins were washed in the blood at Clavery and not when you are water baptized as that only gets you wet. We are justified the moment our hearts are right by putting our complete trust in Christ for his one time work on the cross.

When Christ shed is blood and went to hell for us that satisfied God's righteousness for all sin, once and for all. Christ doesnt wash us for sin every time someone is saved that was done at the cross. If it was connected to water, then no one's name would be in the book of life. God has a fore knowlege of every one who would except Him before he laid the fountations of the world. What Christ did for us 2000 years ago was a one time thing. When you leave this life without being born again then your name is blotted out. That is why when Christ opens the book of life and sees peoples names blotted out it is because they refused the gift. No one ever went to hell for the sins they have committed because Christ already has. Everyone goes to hell for refusing what Christ has already done for them. Too many people are so eager to do something for their salvation like gettting wet is amazing. We are saved when we simply accept what Christ has already done. Whey your heart is right by putting your complete trust in what Christ has done for you, then you are born again, and that means Christ puts His Holy Spirit into your body and gives you joy and a knowlege that your sins are gone completely, and no water is required or of any kind of works othr than by believing by faith no works please. Those who think they need to do something probably should aks God to show them their heart as to whither they are saved or not.

Ephesians 2:8 *For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 *Not of works, lest any man should boast.


That's funny, Scripture tells us was are born again when we are baptized.

Butch5
Mar 12th 2009, 07:23 PM
Just one problem. If this is true, what about the Thief on the Cross? He didn't have a chance to be water baptized. In fact it sounds from the gospels that Jesus did not baptize anyone directly (except maybe the 12), but the disciples appear to have. My question would then be is it this 'water baptism' that saves, or is it the true baptism within a person, that is signified by water baptism to us outwardly that does the work of forgiveness?

(I disagree with the premise of this thread, so tried to put my questions into the context you want, but they are questions I think would need answered if you assume that water baptism was for forgiveness.)

Hi V,

Basically the idea is that one submits to water baptism and goes into thewater, it is a this time that God cleanses us and give the Holy Spirit. It is not he water as Peter says, it is what God does in hte water. Peter says, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God. We have the good conscience toward God in that we are obeying Him, He is giving the answer while we are in the water

Veretax
Mar 12th 2009, 07:57 PM
Hi V,

Basically the idea is that one submits to water baptism and goes into thewater, it is a this time that God cleanses us and give the Holy Spirit. It is not he water as Peter says, it is what God does in hte water. Peter says, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God. We have the good conscience toward God in that we are obeying Him, He is giving the answer while we are in the water


Which is what I said. Baptism doesn't save, but is in essence a first step if you will to confirm outwardly what has already taken place inwardly. I do not believe a Christian can be fully surrendered to the will of Christ without being baptized by water, though I do believe it is possible to be saved and not yet baptized in water.

RabbiKnife
Mar 12th 2009, 08:00 PM
Which is what I said. Baptism doesn't save, but is in essence a first step if you will to confirm outwardly what has already taken place inwardly. I do not believe a Christian can be fully surrendered to the will of Christ without being baptized by water, though I do believe it is possible to be saved and not yet baptized in water.

Those last two statements cannot both be true.

Tomlane
Mar 12th 2009, 08:14 PM
Euric, please read again the verses you gave.

1 Peter 3:20 *Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 *¶The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


It was the water that saved them it was the ark Christ had Noah build. If water could saved any one no one would have died in the flood. You mentioned and I quote"
Sin has nothing to do with our flesh being tainted. Even in the verse you gave says just the opposite. verse 21, not the putting away the flesh of the flesh and it says by the resurrection by Jesus Christ, not water baptism to have a clear conscience.

I hope that helps you, Tomlane

uric3
Mar 12th 2009, 10:04 PM
Euric, please read again the verses you gave.

1 Peter 3:20 *Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 *¶The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


It was the water that saved them it was the ark Christ had Noah build. If water could saved any one no one would have died in the flood. You mentioned and I quote" Even in the verse you gave says just the opposite. verse 21, not the putting away the flesh of the flesh and it says by the resurrection by Jesus Christ, not water baptism to have a clear conscience.

I hope that helps you, Tomlane

Ok I am going to take the passage and break it down by color and try to help point out a few things. Note what scripture says

" 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I noticed you said the water didn't save them however the Bible says it did notice it in blue. What did it save? May I suggest their souls... they were the only people found righteous, everyone else was corrupt and sinful... thus God removed them from that environment by water. Thus letting mankind start a new or a new life so to speak not surrounded by sin and wickedness.

Thus Baptism doth now save us notice its in orange. So how does it save us? Once again removing our souls from a sinful environment as pointed out in earlier post and as shown in Rom 6:6 its the point where our old man of sin is killed(crucified) and we are made a new creature or in newness of life. Just like Noah we can start over only this time with Gods help through his son.

Lastly in purple the passage is stating that baptism isn't a outward washing of the flesh its not removing dirt or grit off of our bodies. Rather its a answer to God in a good conscience that Yes I am going to obey and follow you. Thus cleaning or washing your spirit clean. As stated in Acts 22:16 by washing away our sins through the blood of Christ in obedience thus stated at the end in green that is by the resurrection of Christ that makes this possible.

I hope this helps.

Butch5
Mar 12th 2009, 10:48 PM
Which is what I said. Baptism doesn't save, but is in essence a first step if you will to confirm outwardly what has already taken place inwardly. I do not believe a Christian can be fully surrendered to the will of Christ without being baptized by water, though I do believe it is possible to be saved and not yet baptized in water.

I'm not saying that baptism is a sign to confirm outwardly what has already happened inwardly. What I am saying is that during the baptism, God is concurrently washing clean and giving life to the one being baptized.

Saved and yet not baptized, I am currently trying to figure this out. I had a discussion where I thought I might hold this opinion. In other words, if one believed and then was killed before they could be baptized they were saved. However, Jesus statement was brought to bear, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot see God.

kay-gee
Mar 13th 2009, 05:25 AM
To use an illustration, if the bride has a heart attack and drops dead in the aisle on the way to the alter, is she "married"? I would be interseted in the responses.

all the best...

Veretax
Mar 13th 2009, 01:36 PM
Those last two statements cannot both be true.

I understand how you could say that, and if we as Christians were not lax in teaching those new converts that we reached the importance of baptism right away, it wouldn't even need to be brought up. However, there are many people I know, who I believe are saved, but were not baptized after they believed (I'm speaking of family that are 'reformed presbyterians'). I know they are Christian, and I know their baptism as an infant was incorrect, yet I still see some fruit in their lives.

I will not say anymore on this though, because it will likely result in thread drift.


I'm not saying that baptism is a sign to confirm outwardly what has already happened inwardly. What I am saying is that during the baptism, God is concurrently washing clean and giving life to the one being baptized.

Saved and yet not baptized, I am currently trying to figure this out. I had a discussion where I thought I might hold this opinion. In other words, if one believed and then was killed before they could be baptized they were saved. However, Jesus statement was brought to bear, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot see God.


The real question is for believers, who does the baptizing? Is it the spirit? Or is it man immersing someone in water? There was a time I believed that a person had to be baptized after putting their faith in Christ, but I've discovered a greater truth from scripture, the water is just water, if a person concedes to be baptized but has not already been justified by God, theN I believe that person comes out unjustified. Who are those justified by God? It is those who have put their faith and trust in Christ and have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

The reason I also say that believer's baptism is also about submission to Christ, there are a few verses in acts that talk about people being rebaptized. Why did this happen? Were they having to seek forgiveness in the water again? No, but it was a sign of submission to entire Godhead to whom Jews in particular had to submit to in order to be counted as believers. They believed in God the Father, and they may have believed in the Spirit, but concerning Christ, they did not believe, and many still do not believe him.

So I see water baptism as a symbol, of obedience, submission, and declaration of faith. Here's another interesting fact, if baptism really was so important, why do you think Paul in one of his letters says he thanked God that he had not baptized them, though he did baptize a few? Baptism by a person implied some special significance of submitting to the person who baptized, when it shouldn't. Baptism is about Christ it is not about men, and yet in churches like Corinth they were saying: I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas, I am of Christ etc. and it was causing divisions among them.

Thus why I say who does the real baptism? The real baptism is the work done in the heart by God at the moment of faith, that moment when we become a new creature in Christ. Now, I still believe water baptism is important, as peter said it is the response of a Good Conscience toward God. A Christian who is correctly taught the importance of water baptism, will respond in obedience to their savior, but as I said some Christians are not taught this. In this case I don't think God faults the believer (its a bit contextual), but those who are teaching in Error.

A Christian that knowingly refuses to submit to believers baptism, knowing its significance, I believe does not have a wholly clean conscience to God, and I believe it can and does hinder a Believer's fellowship with God. I know it did for me, and it was almost 8 years before I came to a realization of the truth and need for me to submit to believers baptism. Was a not a Christian before than? I know what Christ did in my life, how my life was radically changed from the inside out. I know it like I know the sun will rise tomorrow, but it was not something my church at the time addressed, and it was not something I had spent much time studying when I was a babe in Christ. However, when I began to look into it, I felt the great conviction of the Holy Spirit that I needed to do this, there was no doubt that God was telling me I needed to get that settled so that he could effectively use me, and once I realized it was God's voice, then I submitted and did so quickly.

Hope that Clarifies my beliefs on this.

Butch5
Mar 13th 2009, 06:06 PM
Veretax---So I see water baptism as a symbol, of obedience, submission, and declaration of faith. Here's another interesting fact, if baptism really was so important, why do you think Paul in one of his letters says he thanked God that he had not baptized them, though he did baptize a few? Baptism by a person implied some special significance of submitting to the person who baptized, when it shouldn't. Baptism is about Christ it is not about men, and yet in churches like Corinth they were saying: I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas, I am of Christ etc. and it was causing divisions among them.

The reason Paul said he was glad he baptized none, is an issue with the Corinthians not with baptism. The Corinthians had a Greek mindset. It common to follow the teaching of a teacher, such as Plato. So a person would say I am of Plato. The Corinthian Christians were doing the same, I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, etc. Paul tells us why he said this, if he had baptized they would be claiming to follow him instead of Christ.


Veretax---Thus why I say who does the real baptism? The real baptism is the work done in the heart by God at the moment of faith, that moment when we become a new creature in Christ. Now, I still believe water baptism is important, as peter said it is the response of a Good Conscience toward God. A Christian who is correctly taught the importance of water baptism, will respond in obedience to their savior, but as I said some Christians are not taught this. In this case I don't think God faults the believer (its a bit contextual), but those who are teaching in Error.

I have to disagree, I believe Scripture is telling us that work done on the heart by God is during water baptism, not at the moment of faith. Peter says that baptism saves us, he said it is an "answer" to a good conscience toward God. We are seeking in hte baptism and God answers.


Veretax---A Christian that knowingly refuses to submit to believers baptism, knowing its significance, I believe does not have a wholly clean conscience to God, and I believe it can and does hinder a Believer's fellowship with God. I know it did for me, and it was almost 8 years before I came to a realization of the truth and need for me to submit to believers baptism. Was a not a Christian before than? I know what Christ did in my life, how my life was radically changed from the inside out. I know it like I know the sun will rise tomorrow, but it was not something my church at the time addressed, and it was not something I had spent much time studying when I was a babe in Christ. However, when I began to look into it, I felt the great conviction of the Holy Spirit that I needed to do this, there was no doubt that God was telling me I needed to get that settled so that he could effectively use me, and once I realized it was God's voice, then I submitted and did so quickly.

From all I see in Scripture it is during baptism that we are made alive. If this is not the case then I see no reason why Christ would command baptism.

uric3
Mar 13th 2009, 07:37 PM
:agree:

I agree with Butch5 said... only thing I would like to add is I think thats why you don't see people jumping for joy at the moment of faith... its not until water baptism takes place that they are truly happy.

Notice Paul's conversion in Acts chapter 9 and 22... Paul doesn't eat, drink and be normal until after he is baptized. Notice the eunuch in Acts 8 he isn't going joyfully alone until after Phillip baptized him. Notice the Jailer in Acts 16... Paul and them didn't even eat until after the Jailer and his house was baptized in the middle of the night the same hour they believed... The avg person would be like why not eat and do on Sunday when where at church and put it off on purpose... but what we see in scripture is it was done ASAP no waiting get it done now attitude... it strikes me that this was extremely important to them otherwise why not wait till a convient time or hour?

kay-gee
Mar 14th 2009, 02:47 AM
Excellent points Urica. There is a good chance the jailer was thinking his days were numbered because of the the incident at the prison, and knew he had better get it done!

all the best...

reformedct
Mar 14th 2009, 03:16 AM
the point of this thread was to assume water baptism WAS the place where we are forgiven. based on this the discussion was on the nature of forgiveness of sins after water baptism and if there are any instructions on re-water baptism for those who have recieved the Spirit.


to discuss wether baptism is the point where we are forgiven or not please continue in this thread:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=160189

kf4zmt
Apr 28th 2009, 04:40 PM
I will add that baptism is perhaps familiar to the jews as the ceremonial washing that went on at the temple.

Is there a Bible passage that you have in mind regarding the ceremonial washing that went on at the temple?

Veretax
Apr 28th 2009, 05:58 PM
wow a month old thread, There were many places too many for me to cite a particular verse, most of them in the Tora though.