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reformedct
Mar 16th 2009, 08:17 PM
We all know that justification is right-standing with God. at what point are we justified, and how does this relate to water baptism and the remission of sins. is it possible to be justified by faith and simultaneously in ones sins until water baptism. in other words, a having right standing with God and simultaneously filthy in sin. are we justified before or after water baptism.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 16th 2009, 08:49 PM
We all know that justification is right-standing with God. at what point are we justified, and how does this relate to water baptism and the remission of sins. is it possible to be justified by faith and simultaneously in ones sins until water baptism. in other words, a having right standing with God and simultaneously filthy in sin. are we justified before or after water baptism.
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Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


I dont see anywhere in that Scripture that says we are justified by 'baptism'...

but by FAITH... in Christ.. and what He has accomplished on that Bloody Tree... IT IS FINSISHED....

When God calls you.. draws you to Him.. reveals Himself to you.. His Goodness and Longsuffering in your life.. reaveals how He has blessed you.. even though its unmerited... and the point when you come to the Revelation of that.. His Goodness, Unmerited in your life.. leading to the conviction of sin by the Holy Ghost.. with Godly sorrow and repentance following.. believing in What He did on that Tree for you.. believing as a child would.. with child like faith.. then God see's you as Justified... and you have Peace with God.. thru His Son Jesus the Christ.. It's that child like faith , when God sees that out of a contrite and humble heart.. a contrite and humble spirit.. when God Discerns that.. then there is Justification! and God say's Your Justified.. thru FAITH..

reformedct
Mar 16th 2009, 10:43 PM
anymore perspectives? please share!

Oma
Mar 17th 2009, 03:14 AM
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified
Romans 8:30 (KJV)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 (KJV)

The above verse tells us we believe and are justified first and then are baptized. That is showing obedience to the Lord's command to be baptized, but salvation does not depend on baptism. The thief on the cross was not baptized, but he went to heaven that day.

BroRog
Mar 17th 2009, 03:47 AM
We all know that justification is right-standing with God. at what point are we justified, and how does this relate to water baptism and the remission of sins. is it possible to be justified by faith and simultaneously in ones sins until water baptism. in other words, a having right standing with God and simultaneously filthy in sin. are we justified before or after water baptism.

Paul argues in Hebrews 11 that faith is the evidence of our justification (things unseen.)

kay-gee
Mar 17th 2009, 01:58 PM
We all know that justification is right-standing with God. at what point are we justified, and how does this relate to water baptism and the remission of sins. is it possible to be justified by faith and simultaneously in ones sins until water baptism. in other words, a having right standing with God and simultaneously filthy in sin. are we justified before or after water baptism.
Why the endless, theorizing and philosophzing on this issue? So much is said by folks about FAITH. Why not just put faith in what Acts 2:38, take it at face value, and put it to rest. It is amazing to me, the energy consumed trying to disprove a verse of scrirture. We are instructed to move on from these "basic things" (hebrews 6). There is much work for Christian s to do and life is short.

all the best...

Brother Mark
Mar 17th 2009, 02:00 PM
We all know that justification is right-standing with God. at what point are we justified, and how does this relate to water baptism and the remission of sins. is it possible to be justified by faith and simultaneously in ones sins until water baptism. in other words, a having right standing with God and simultaneously filthy in sin. are we justified before or after water baptism.

How was the publican justified?

Was Abraham justified before circumcision or after circumcision?

When was the thief on the cross justified?

Grace and peace,

Mark

Walstib
Mar 17th 2009, 02:42 PM
We all know that justification is right-standing with God. at what point are we justified, and how does this relate to water baptism and the remission of sins. is it possible to be justified by faith and simultaneously in ones sins until water baptism. in other words, a having right standing with God and simultaneously filthy in sin. are we justified before or after water baptism.

I can't understand why another thread on this needs to be started. *shrug*

Your question has a flaw within it I think because it is possible for someone to be justified at the time of water baptism. That said I believe there are many cases of people who are justified before or after it as well.

The simple answer is that we are justified at the point in time that God choses to justify us. I would put forth that no one who has the Holy Spirit indwelling has to worry if they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb which is the only thing that truly cleanses us from sin.

And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. (Heb 9:22 NKJV)

And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. (Act 10:45-48 NKJV)

As Hebrews 6 was brought up in this post....

I would ask here what the baptisms *Plural* are spoken of? Water, Spirit and blood?

Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.(1Jn 5:5-8 NKJV)

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Eph 4:4-6 NKJV)

If it may be so... would it matter if someone was not able to have a water baptism if they are all one? Just a thought.

Peace,
Joe

tgallison
Mar 17th 2009, 03:23 PM
We all know that justification is right-standing with God. at what point are we justified, and how does this relate to water baptism and the remission of sins. is it possible to be justified by faith and simultaneously in ones sins until water baptism. in other words, a having right standing with God and simultaneously filthy in sin. are we justified before or after water baptism.

Our water baptism is spiritual, performed by the Holy Spirit, with the living water Jesus Christ, therefore it happens at the precise time of our justification. At the point of our rebirth, which is spiritual, therefore it cannot be seen.

In Jesus Christ, Terrell

reformedct
Mar 17th 2009, 03:34 PM
Why the endless, theorizing and philosophzing on this issue? So much is said by folks about FAITH. Why not just put faith in what Acts 2:38, take it at face value, and put it to rest. It is amazing to me, the energy consumed trying to disprove a verse of scrirture. We are instructed to move on from these "basic things" (hebrews 6). There is much work for Christian s to do and life is short.

all the best...


the Bible says let each man be fully convinced even on matters of food and drink. right now i am neither fully convinced that all are justified before water baptism nor am i convinced that all are justified at water baptism. this is an important issue so i want to get as much understanding as possible before i change any theology. funny thing is ive learned that Martin Luther looked at water baptism as a sacrament...the staple of the reformation believes in baptismal regeneration. what better place to chat about the Bible than on Bible chat with many different perspectives and views?


A SIDENOTE TO ALL: LETS remember that we are trying to look at what the BIBle says concerning at what point are we JUSTIFIED.

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 17th 2009, 03:45 PM
Why the endless, theorizing and philosophzing on this issue? So much is said by folks about FAITH. Why not just put faith in what Acts 2:38, take it at face value, and put it to rest. It is amazing to me, the energy consumed trying to disprove a verse of scrirture. We are instructed to move on from these "basic things" (hebrews 6). There is much work for Christian s to do and life is short.

all the best...


Do you feel 'Justified' by what you do and dont do? Kay-gee?

How are YOU justified in the Eyes of the Lord?

Why did Jesus say to 'adults'...those Hearing and putting to heart His Message of the Good News.. when He Preached .....

except ye become converted and become AS LITTLE CHILDREN.. ye shall in no ways 'Enter the Kingdom of Heaven'...

being as little Children is having 'Childlike Faith'... in what He has Accompllished on that Tree.. and believing on That.. Trusting that He will carry you thru on all aspects of your life.. even the point of Physical Death.....

thru this is Righteousness and Justification

there is no other way Kay-Gee..

This IS why those three Words... Spoken by Christ Himself..

It is Finished

is such a stumbling block to so many.. its the Offense of the Cross..

The Cross 'SHOUTS' and demonstrates...

you can't do it! on your own or out of your own power.....

and Demonstrated that God has provided a Way... He has done it..

men/women in their spiritual pride.. still shrug off those words and His Completed Work.. either adding to it or taking away from it.. in their 'pride' and puffed up state... they become enemies of the Cross of Christ.. and Paul wept for those who he discerned were just that..

and if Faith and Belief in What He has done for you.. that seed .. the Word. if it takes root in a humble and contrite heart.. brought on by Godly Repentance and soroow..... as a Child has faith with their own parents at a young age.. then God discerns that you are declared Justified by Faith and Righteous by Faith..

In what?

Our own religiious works? done out of our own power?

no but BY what He Has already accomplished and the Righteous Works He has afore pre ordained that those He calls His Own May walk in them as Born Again Christians From above.. not the will of men in religion...

Walstib
Mar 17th 2009, 06:56 PM
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.(Rom 5:8-10 NKJV)

The question may be when is the blood applied? Upon belief maybe?

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Rom 3:21-26 NKJV)

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:21-26 NKJV)

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1Jn 1:7 NKJV)

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Act 13:38-39 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

reformedct
Mar 17th 2009, 07:45 PM
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.(Rom 5:8-10 NKJV)

The question may be when is the blood applied? Upon belief maybe?

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Rom 3:21-26 NKJV)

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:21-26 NKJV)

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1Jn 1:7 NKJV)

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Act 13:38-39 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe


thanks for these verses. so we can see the Bilble does seem to say we are justified at the point of believing, so maybe we should discuss what are the aspects of being justified? of course it means right-standing, but does it mean that sin is removed as well? lets discuss

theBelovedDisciple
Mar 17th 2009, 08:10 PM
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.(Rom 5:8-10 NKJV)

The question may be when is the blood applied? Upon belief maybe?

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Rom 3:21-26 NKJV)

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:21-26 NKJV)

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1Jn 1:7 NKJV)

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Act 13:38-39 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe


Joe,
I firmly believe that Justification comes at that moment a person realizes who the True God of Abraham Issac and Jacob is.. Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh...... 'believing' on His Completed work Of the Cross for them. as a Child Would. with child like Faith.. this doesnt matter how old you are.. 15. 45 or 80 Years old... this Revealed to that soul and spirit by God Himself... without that revelation there is nothing.. you have ritual and stuff going on without the Work of the Regeneration of the Holy Ghost.. usually the work of men in Relgion...

Justification and the application of Christ's Blood to that soul and spirit at the moment of Belief and Salvation....

Paul said he was translated from the kingdom of darkness upon belief into the Kingdom of His Dear Son...

One cannot be transferred from 'darkness' into 'LIGHT' unless one has been Deemed Justifed thru Faith and the application of the Blood of Christ which can save the most Vilest of sinners.. and the hardest of hearts...
This done thru the Work of the Holy Ghost and being Born AGain from above...

One may ask how a 80 year old person can have child like faith?

with man this is impossible... but with God 'ALL THINGS' ARE POSSIBLE...

its His Work and His Revelation of Who He is and His Goodness to that 80 year old that will bring that soul and spirit to its knees in utter repentance and 'belief ' In Him....

Veretax
Mar 17th 2009, 08:38 PM
Paul argues in Hebrews 11 that faith is the evidence of our justification (things unseen.)



this is a side issue, but Paul is not claimed in the text of Hebrews as the Author. It is disputed whether or not he is or is not the true author. Not that it changes the message, but thought I would remind folks of that.



As for the issue. Justified by Faith, by God at the moment we place our trust in Christ. Water Baptism has nothing to do with justified.

BroRog
Mar 18th 2009, 01:05 AM
this is a side issue, but Paul is not claimed in the text of Hebrews as the Author. It is disputed whether or not he is or is not the true author. Not that it changes the message, but thought I would remind folks of that.



As for the issue. Justified by Faith, by God at the moment we place our trust in Christ. Water Baptism has nothing to do with justified.

I agree. I used to type "the author of Hebrews" but I'm getting tired and decided to just say "Paul." Thanks for the reminder. :)

Veretax
Mar 18th 2009, 11:51 AM
I agree. I used to type "the author of Hebrews" but I'm getting tired and decided to just say "Paul." Thanks for the reminder. :)


Not a problem :D.... Though personnaly I think the writing is similar in style to Luke's, since no author is claimed we may not know till Christ comes.

Teke
Mar 18th 2009, 12:18 PM
We all know that justification is right-standing with God. at what point are we justified, and how does this relate to water baptism and the remission of sins. is it possible to be justified by faith and simultaneously in ones sins until water baptism. in other words, a having right standing with God and simultaneously filthy in sin. are we justified before or after water baptism.

It's not a one time event, as should be evident from our example of Abraham.

Quibbling over words doesn't make it any clearer. justification=righteous, both come from the Greek root dike from which there are some five different Greek words used in either manner of 'just' or 'right' and the forms of them. ie. justified, justification, righteous, righteousness

As for sin, Abraham and David made the same discovery that being forgiven of sins comes from God by repentance and faith (Ps. 32:5,10) and the resulting righteousness is as real as is the forgiveness of sins (Ps.32:2,11)

kay-gee
Mar 18th 2009, 12:39 PM
Hello Teke. So you are saying that justification=righteousness. Great! now check out what Christ says about righteousness and how it is fulfilled (comes to be) Matthew3:15 Isn't it funny how all roads lead back to the water.

all the best...

Teke
Mar 18th 2009, 02:16 PM
Hello Teke. So you are saying that justification=righteousness. Great! now check out what Christ says about righteousness and how it is fulfilled (comes to be) Matthew3:15 Isn't it funny how all roads lead back to the water.

all the best...

Yes, and water is related to the Holy Spirit. Which means that we must be sanctified by the Spirit. So while baptism will wash away previous sins, it doesn't keep you clean. To stay clean, one must repent and be forgiven.

At baptism the devil is renounced and we vow to follow only our Lord. To keep that vow and remain His virgin bride as the Church, we must keep our garment spotless.

Veretax
Mar 18th 2009, 03:13 PM
I'm going to have to ask for clarification here. Where do you find in scripture water == Holy Spirit? Now I know when Christ spoke to the woman at the well, he basically said that he (Christ) was the living water. That came a chapter after this passage in John 3, but I don't remember the Holy Spirit being referred to as water, could you cite a verse please?

watchinginawe
Mar 18th 2009, 06:38 PM
I'm going to have to ask for clarification here. Where do you find in scripture water == Holy Spirit? Now I know when Christ spoke to the woman at the well, he basically said that he (Christ) was the living water. That came a chapter after this passage in John 3, but I don't remember the Holy Spirit being referred to as water, could you cite a verse please?Veretax, the association with water is very clear by the use of the word "baptize". John baptizes with water, but Jesus baptizes (cleanses, immerses, makes clean) with the Holy Ghost.

God Bless!

Veretax
Mar 18th 2009, 06:48 PM
Veretax, the association with water is very clear by the use of the word "baptize". John baptizes with water, but Jesus baptizes (cleanses, immerses, makes clean) with the Holy Ghost.

God Bless!


I understand what your saying, but I fail to see how that answers my question. Where in the bible is Water equated with the Holy Spirit? I looked at the interlinear greek and of the water and of the spirit are separate words....This is why I asked.

Brother Mark
Mar 18th 2009, 06:50 PM
I understand what your saying, but I fail to see how that answers my question. Where in the bible is Water equated with the Holy Spirit? I looked at the interlinear greek and of the water and of the spirit are separate words....This is why I asked.

Man has to be born in the flesh (of water) and of the spirit. The first birth is of natural water. The second birth is of the spiritual water.

The Holy SPirit is referenced as water throughout scripture. Remember John 4 with the woman at the well?

Mark

Veretax
Mar 18th 2009, 06:59 PM
I am familiar with the passage and mentioned it. However, I've always thought that Christ was referring to himself in this passage, as being the Living Water.


Jn 4:10-14 (NKJV)

10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 4:10-14 (NKJV)


Notice the beginining of John, in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, all things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. This is Christ. I believe when Christ is talking about the living water that he was talking about himself 'The Word'. (Christ did not give the Holy Spirit until pentacost.)

Jn 1:1-17 (NKJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.


9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.


12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:1-17 (NKJV)


So I don't see necessarily a direct equation between water and spirit there. (there could be an indirect one given that the Spirit is indeed part of the godhead, and is fully God etc.) Another reason i doubt this is because it because the water is not capitalized as the Spirit is.

Brother Mark
Mar 18th 2009, 07:08 PM
I am familiar with the passage and mentioned it. However, I've always thought that Christ was referring to himself in this passage, as being the Living Water.


Jn 4:10-14 (NKJV)

10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

So I don't see necessarily a direct equation between water and spirit there. (there could be an indirect one given that the Spirit is indeed part of the godhead, and is fully God etc.) Another reason i doubt this is because it because the water is not capitalized as the Spirit is.

We often speak of about "Jesus in our hearts". But who really is given to reside in our hearts? It is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father.

John 7:38-40
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NASB

Veretax
Mar 18th 2009, 07:20 PM
We often speak of about "Jesus in our hearts". But who really is given to reside in our hearts? It is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father.

John 7:38-40
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NASB


Ah that's what I was looking for. That passage clearly clarifies that Christ is talking about the Holy Spirit when he talks about the fountain of living water that he would put inside us. Okay. I get it now. (I can see I'm going to have to reread the gospel of John here soon, I forgot about that one honestly.)

RabbiKnife
Mar 18th 2009, 07:38 PM
Water baptism makes you wet.

And that's about all.

watchinginawe
Mar 18th 2009, 08:24 PM
The simple answer is that we are justified at the point in time that God choses to justify us. I would put forth that no one who has the Holy Spirit indwelling has to worry if they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb which is the only thing that truly cleanses us from sin.
...
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. (Act 10:45-48 NKJV)I wanted to add Peter's prologue to the above service at Cornelius' house. At the Jerusalem Council, which is the last time we here from Peter in the book of Acts, Peter recounts what God did like this:

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

A good while ago. Many years had passed but still fresh in Peter's mind. Such is the testimony of us all. Peter says that the household of Cornelius heard the "word of the gospel", and believed! We even have the sermon recorded for us. And what was the conclusion of that sermon? Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Peter continues:

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

The Holy Ghost bare the gentiles the witness of remission of sins! Their hearts were purified by faith!

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Now Peter says an astonishing thing above. He says the Jews would be saved by the SAME WAY that the gentiles were saved. :o Peter had come a long way toward grace by this time. The grace of Jesus Christ purifies us through faith!

God Bless!

Sirus
Mar 19th 2009, 02:27 AM
I'm going to have to ask for clarification here. Where do you find in scripture water == Holy Spirit? Now I know when Christ spoke to the woman at the well, he basically said that he (Christ) was the living water. That came a chapter after this passage in John 3, but I don't remember the Holy Spirit being referred to as water, could you cite a verse please?
I am familiar with the passage and mentioned it. However, I've always thought that Christ was referring to himself in this passage, as being the Living Water.Jesus baptizes with the Spirit and He gives us drink. Not to mention the Lord is that Spirit

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The Spirit is poured like water, is living water, fills and washes, and is something we drink

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.


Isa 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
.........
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
.........
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Veretax
Mar 19th 2009, 12:04 PM
Watching Awe,


Excellent post!


Sirius,


Thanks for all those verses. I couldn't remember reading it before, but I've seen enough evidence now to see that the Spirit is also referred to as water (or at least some liquid) form. You can't pour out a Gas necessarily.

I'd like to hone in on those last two verses you posted though:


1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


If we are in the body we are baptized, for we have been made to drink into one spirit. Secondly, Paul in 6;11 says ye are washed, which implies sin, and justification, but also could bring to remembrance baptism. I'd say its a fair point that the people Paul was talking to had already taken care of the matter of Baptism when this letter was written.

Teke
Mar 19th 2009, 03:06 PM
Water baptism makes you wet.

And that's about all.

St Basil the Great, On The Holy Spirit, would disagree with you. Baptism signifies the putting off of the works of the flesh, as the Apostle says, "In Him you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ, and you were buried with Him in baptism"


For this cause the Lord, who is the Dispenser of our life, gave us the covenant of baptism, containing a type of life and death, for the water fulfils the image of death, and the Spirit gives us the earnest of life. Hence it follows that the answer to our question why the water was associated with the Spirit is clear: the reason is because in baptism two ends were proposed; on the one hand, the destroying of the body of sin, that it may never bear fruit unto death; the other hand, our living unto the Spirit, and having our fruit in holiness; the water receiving the body as in a tomb figures death, while the Spirit pours in the quickening power, renewing our souls from the deadness of sin unto their original life. This then is what it is to be born again of water and of the Spirit, the being made dead being effected in the water, while our life is wrought in us through the Spirit.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf208.vii.xvi.html