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paradiseinn
Apr 6th 2009, 07:21 PM
Instructions to be saved can be found in Romans 10:9-10:
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Where in the Bible are the instructions to become born again?

Lars777
Apr 6th 2009, 07:34 PM
Instructions to be saved can be found in Romans 10:9-10:
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Where in the Bible are the instructions to become born again?



Well you can start with this one.



Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him." Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew [born again] he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:1-3)



But do not make the mistake of thinking these are two different experiences!

Partaker of Christ
Apr 6th 2009, 08:54 PM
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

paradiseinn
Apr 6th 2009, 09:05 PM
Ok, so confessing out loud in prayer "Jesus is Lord" is being born again?

Born again and being saved is the same thing?

historyb
Apr 6th 2009, 09:38 PM
Yes, they are different phrases for the same thing :)

John146
Apr 6th 2009, 09:41 PM
Well you can start with this one.



Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him." Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew [born again] he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:1-3)

But do not make the mistake of thinking these are two different experiences!Exactly.

Titus 3
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I believe this passage shows that being born of the Spirit and being saved go hand in hand. Once we are born again we are saved. The act of being born again, described above as "the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost", is what saves us or places us in a state of being saved. This happens after we repent and put our faith in Christ.

Ephesians 1
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

paradiseinn
Apr 6th 2009, 09:50 PM
Excellent! Thank you so much for your replies!
Is there a post like this for new christians to read so that they know what to do?

From my understanding once you are saved, the Holy Spirit will never leave you? True right?

I'm sure I read that in the Bible somewhere, I will try to find the verse.

9Marksfan
Apr 6th 2009, 10:09 PM
Instructions to be saved can be found in Romans 10:9-10:
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Where in the Bible are the instructions to become born again?

There aren't any, because it's something that happens to you - it's 100% a work of God's Spirit and is the cause, not the result of saving faith.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God... 1 Jn 5:1a ESV

So you're born of God, then you believe - not the other way round. Look at it this way - when a child is born, he enters the world, he sees, he cries - he is born BEFORE all these things happen - he isn't born from above AFTER he follows certain instructions!

You might as well say what are the instructions for becoming a human being!

Can I recommend that you get a hold of John Piper's latest book, Finally Alive, that looks at this crucially important topic in some depth?

Tomlane
Apr 6th 2009, 10:48 PM
From my own experience, being born again is a supernatural operation of God.

Colossians 2:12 *Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

When we put our complete trust in Christ as a child would, with our whole heart, God puts His Holy Spirit in us the moment we believe. No waiting.

Romans 10:9 *That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Galatians 3:22 *But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

There are many scriptures about salvation and all speak of salvation as being had by just believing what Christ has done for us all. Salvation is also referred to as a free gift. When we are born again, we are born spiritually.

Romans 5:15 *But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:16 *And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:18 *Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Not once is water ever mentioned as a requirement for salvation but spiritual baptism by Christ is required. {1 Peter 1:23 *Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.} Even John knew his baptism was temporary for He asked the Lord what do you need my baptism when you shall baptize with fire and spirit? Spirit baptism is the baptism, is the one everyone needs, not a baptism of repentance, but spiritual baptism. Water baptism many believe is required for salvation that is false also for then salvation is by works.

Ephesians 2:8 *For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 *Not of works, lest any man should boast.


When a person is saved and I have heard this same thing many times from believers; the moment a person is born again or shortly thereafter, there is a great weight of sin lifted from us that we are actually aware of and a great joy come to us that lasts for the rest of ones days along with the fruits of the spirit that are found in:

Galatians 5:22 *But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 *Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. This is the beginning of a love relationship with Christ and His Father that will never end.

There is no need for music with a measured beat to have the fruits of the spirit as they are with a believer at all times. The awareness of these fruits can ebb and flow depending how much hidden sin a person has in their life. That is why the Lord wants a believer to confess their sins and repent of them so he or she can stay in communication and fellowship with Christ and with the rest of the household of God. Sin will not cause a person to loose salvation but it will cause a person to lack in spiritual understanding and they will remain as babes that Paul admonished at Corinth.

We can be sure of our salvation and not worry about loosing it for each believer is sealed by God's spirit of promise.

Galatians 3:22 *But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

This next verse shows the covenant that all gentile believers are saved under and it is not the new covenant promised to Israel. This covenant of promise was made to Abraham and his seed which includes all nations.

Galatians 3:29 *And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

One way we do know we are saved is God spirit witnessing to our spirit once we are born again.

Hebrews 10:15 *Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

I have been saved 52 years and have never found in God's word that I needed water baptism or that I had to keep any ordinances to keep my salvation and I'm still saved by the grace of God and have had many supernatural things happen in my life and with God assurance with his Holy Spirit sealing me with Gods word that he can't break and I'm assured of where I will go when I leave this life.

2 Corinthians 1:22 *Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 *In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Tomlane

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 7th 2009, 12:06 AM
From my own experience, being born again is a supernatural operation of God.

Colossians 2:12 *Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

When we put our complete trust in Christ as a child would, with our whole heart, God puts His Holy Spirit in us the moment we believe. No waiting.

Romans 10:9 *That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Galatians 3:22 *But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

There are many scriptures about salvation and all speak of salvation as being had by just believing what Christ has done for us all. Salvation is also referred to as a free gift. When we are born again, we are born spiritually.

Romans 5:15 *But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:16 *And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:18 *Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Not once is water ever mentioned as a requirement for salvation but spiritual baptism by Christ is required. {1 Peter 1:23 *Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.} Even John knew his baptism was temporary for He asked the Lord what do you need my baptism when you shall baptize with fire and spirit? Spirit baptism is the baptism, is the one everyone needs, not a baptism of repentance, but spiritual baptism. Water baptism many believe is required for salvation that is false also for then salvation is by works.

Ephesians 2:8 *For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 *Not of works, lest any man should boast.


When a person is saved and I have heard this same thing many times from believers; the moment a person is born again or shortly thereafter, there is a great weight of sin lifted from us that we are actually aware of and a great joy come to us that lasts for the rest of ones days along with the fruits of the spirit that are found in:

Galatians 5:22 *But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 *Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. This is the beginning of a love relationship with Christ and His Father that will never end.

There is no need for music with a measured beat to have the fruits of the spirit as they are with a believer at all times. The awareness of these fruits can ebb and flow depending how much hidden sin a person has in their life. That is why the Lord wants a believer to confess their sins and repent of them so he or she can stay in communication and fellowship with Christ and with the rest of the household of God. Sin will not cause a person to loose salvation but it will cause a person to lack in spiritual understanding and they will remain as babes that Paul admonished at Corinth.

We can be sure of our salvation and not worry about loosing it for each believer is sealed by God's spirit of promise.

Galatians 3:22 *But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

This next verse shows the covenant that all gentile believers are saved under and it is not the new covenant promised to Israel. This covenant of promise was made to Abraham and his seed which includes all nations.

Galatians 3:29 *And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

One way we do know we are saved is God spirit witnessing to our spirit once we are born again.

Hebrews 10:15 *Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

I have been saved 52 years and have never found in God's word that I needed water baptism or that I had to keep any ordinances to keep my salvation and I'm still saved by the grace of God and have had many supernatural things happen in my life and with God assurance with his Holy Spirit sealing me with Gods word that he can't break and I'm assured of where I will go when I leave this life.

2 Corinthians 1:22 *Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 *In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Tomlane

Good post ..

Being Born Again from above is a Supernatural Operation of God...

He Authors it and He finishes it.... for the Issues of Salvation Belong to Him and Him Only...

He draws and Converts...

Nobody comes to Him unless 'HE" Draws them thru the Work of the Holy Ghost..

and Its the Revelation. thru the Holy Ghost, of the Goodness/forbearance of God in that sinners life that will lead that person to Repent and Follow Him... its the Goodness of God that leadeth thee to repentance.. and this comes thru the work of the Holy Ghost.. as He reveals Gods Unmerited Goodness and Favor in that souls life.. as well as His Forbearance in his/her life. Whe He revealed that to me Feb 3 1994, and He revealed to me that He had delivered me of wicked unclean spirits and their harrassment and bondage... that Revelation.. I could do nothing but break down and repent and follow Him.. telling Him.. who else do I have LORD.. but You? I can't exist with out you... the only Reason I'm still alive is because of YOU.. this was that start of New Life for me.. Eternal Life... and I long to see the One who set me free and forgave me.. face to face..

bagofseed
Apr 7th 2009, 01:02 AM
Ok, so confessing out loud in prayer "Jesus is Lord" is being born again?

Born again and being saved is the same thing?

Not in all respects, because the Holy Spirit is the down payment.
The workings of Salvation is more complex then what is taught.
There is salvation at the cross
ongoing salvation through sanctification
an awaited salvation without regard to sin, the redemption of our bodies.

The way of salvation is a fact established since creation and realized through Jesus.
Salvation for us is through a promise, that if we follow Jesus, share in Him in his sufferings we will also share with Him in His resurrection.

Ro 8:17 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ro+8:17&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)
… and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.



1Jo 5:4 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+5:4&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

bagofseed
Apr 7th 2009, 01:10 AM
Just believing?

Is that all?

Yes!

But just believing is no small thing, because everything we do is based on what we believe.

Our culture has changed the term believe to some kind of mental acknowledgment, rather then something we live from.

bagofseed
Apr 7th 2009, 01:21 AM
There aren't any, because it's something that happens to you - it's 100% a work of God's Spirit and is the cause, not the result of saving faith.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God... 1 Jn 5:1a ESV

So you're born of God, then you believe - not the other way round. Look at it this way - when a child is born, he enters the world, he sees, he cries - he is born BEFORE all these things happen - he isn't born from above AFTER he follows certain instructions!

You might as well say what are the instructions for becoming a human being!

Interesting, reminds me of the verse about John:
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins

tt1106
Apr 7th 2009, 01:08 PM
It's the belief and the continuing in that belief.
Believing until the end. Jesus commands people to repent and be baptized then he commands to follow him.
First and last words to Peter, FOLLOW him. Where did he mean? He meant to continue in that belief to the end. Finish the race you started. Complete the work. I have overcome the world.
Grace is what makes it all possible, but let's not forget that Grace is expensive not cheap. To believe that we can somehow live the same way as we have all along and still be covered by Grace is to minimize the work that was done on the cross.
Salvation, Justification, sanctification.

John146
Apr 8th 2009, 08:03 PM
There aren't any, because it's something that happens to you - it's 100% a work of God's Spirit and is the cause, not the result of saving faith.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God... 1 Jn 5:1a ESV

So you're born of God, then you believe - not the other way round.I completely disagree.

Ephesians 1
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The order is shown clearly here. There is no reason to think that we are born of the Spirit, then we believe, then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. What reason is there to think that we are not born of the Spirit at the same time we are sealed with the Spirit? The passage above shows this happens after we believe.

I believe you are misinterpreting 1 John 5:1 and reading something into it that isn't there. Unfortunately, there are various translations of this verse, which differ fairly significantly.

You already quoted from the ESV. Here is the verse from the KJV:

1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The NIV, NASB, Amplified, NKJV all have "is born of God" rather than "has been born of God".

But it doesn't really make a difference as it relates to my point which is that the verse does not specifically say that one is first born of God and then believes. It also doesn't specifically say that one believes and is then born of God. This verse simply can't be used on either side of the argument. All it's saying is that the one who believes is also born of God. In my view it is because someone believes that they are born of God. But I wouldn't try to use that particular verse to support my view and neither should you.

Should I look at the KJV version and think that it's saying "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is then born of God"? No, that would be adding something that isn't there. Likewise, you have no basis for changing the text of the ESV as if it says "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has previously been born of God before they believed".

Let me illustrate this for you. I'll refer to my own condition. I believe that Jesus is the Christ and I have been born of God. Now, how exactly am I saying anything about which came first, the believing or being born of God, with that statement? Clearly, I'm not. Yet that is the way you read 1 John 5:1, as if it is actually saying anything about which comes first. It doesn't.

Do you believe that at the time we are born of God we become children of God? I do.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Seems to me that in order to be born of God and be a child of God it requires faith in Christ Jesus. Being born of God and becoming a child of God are the result of having put one's faith in Christ.


Look at it this way - when a child is born, he enters the world, he sees, he cries - he is born BEFORE all these things happen - he isn't born from above AFTER he follows certain instructions!This would only be valid if scripture ever made being born naturally analagous to being born of the Spirit. But it never does.


Can I recommend that you get a hold of John Piper's latest book, Finally Alive, that looks at this crucially important topic in some depth?No. ;)

Livelysword
Apr 9th 2009, 04:59 AM
Lively:

How to be saved from your sins...

God's Part:

God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, extended GRACE to man at the cross at Calvary. Jesus Christ, the sinless Lamb of God, was crucified shedding his blood for the sins of man, was buried, and rose again the third day victorious over sin and death!
1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)

Man's Part:

To HEAR the gospel... So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:17 (KJV), Rom 1:16 (KJV)

To have FAITH ... which only comes by hearing the Word of God and without which it is impossible to please God
Rom 10:17 (KJV), Rom 1:16 (KJV), Eph 2:8-10 (KJV), Heb 11:6 (KJV)

To REPENT ... of (turn from) your sins
Luke 13:3-5 (KJV), Acts 2:38 (KJV), Acts 3:19 (KJV), 2 Cor 7:10 (KJV)

To CONFESS ... with your mouth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Rom 10:9-10 (KJV), Mat 10:32 (KJV), Luke 12:8 (KJV), Acts 8:37 (KJV)

To be BAPTIZED ... (immersed, in water, not sprinkled) into Jesus Christ to have your sins forgiven (washed away)by the blood of Christ by faith in him.
Mat 28:19-20 (KJV), Mark 16:16 (KJV), John 3:3-5 (KJV), Acts 2:38 (KJV), Acts 8:35-39 (KJV), Acts 10:47-48 (KJV), Acts 22:16 (KJV), Rom 6:3-17 (KJV), 1 Cor 12:13 (KJV), 1 Cor 15:29 (KJV), Gal 3:27 (KJV), Eph 4:5 (KJV), Eph 5:26 (KJV), Col 2:11-13 (KJV), 1 Pet 3:20-21 (KJV)

To CONTINUE in faith ... to live a faithful life in Christ and not allow yourself to be moved away from the hope of the Gospel
Acts 14:22 (KJV), Col 1:23 (KJV), Rev 3:5 (KJV)

bagofseed
Apr 9th 2009, 09:05 AM
Lively:

How to be saved from your sins...

God's Part:

God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, extended GRACE to man at the cross at Calvary. Jesus Christ, the sinless Lamb of God, was crucified shedding his blood for the sins of man, was buried, and rose again the third day victorious over sin and death!
1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)

Man's Part:

To HEAR the gospel... So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:17 (KJV), Rom 1:16 (KJV)

To have FAITH ... which only comes by hearing the Word of God and without which it is impossible to please God
Rom 10:17 (KJV), Rom 1:16 (KJV), Eph 2:8-10 (KJV), Heb 11:6 (KJV)

To REPENT ... of (turn from) your sins
Luke 13:3-5 (KJV), Acts 2:38 (KJV), Acts 3:19 (KJV), 2 Cor 7:10 (KJV)

To CONFESS ... with your mouth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Rom 10:9-10 (KJV), Mat 10:32 (KJV), Luke 12:8 (KJV), Acts 8:37 (KJV)

To be BAPTIZED ... (immersed, in water, not sprinkled) into Jesus Christ to have your sins forgiven (washed away)by the blood of Christ by faith in him.
Mat 28:19-20 (KJV), Mark 16:16 (KJV), John 3:3-5 (KJV), Acts 2:38 (KJV), Acts 8:35-39 (KJV), Acts 10:47-48 (KJV), Acts 22:16 (KJV), Rom 6:3-17 (KJV), 1 Cor 12:13 (KJV), 1 Cor 15:29 (KJV), Gal 3:27 (KJV), Eph 4:5 (KJV), Eph 5:26 (KJV), Col 2:11-13 (KJV), 1 Pet 3:20-21 (KJV)

To CONTINUE in faith ... to live a faithful life in Christ and not allow yourself to be moved away from the hope of the Gospel
Acts 14:22 (KJV), Col 1:23 (KJV), Rev 3:5 (KJV)

There is more, including.

To forgive
Mt 6:15 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+6:15&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

To be sanctified
Ro 6:22 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ro+6:22&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

To obey
Heb 5:9 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=heb+5:9&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation

To share in His sufferings
Ro 8:17 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ro+8:17&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

To hate our lives in this world
Joh 12:25 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=joh+12:25&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

To endure
2Ti 2:12 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2ti+2:12&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

To overcome
1Jo 5:4 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+5:4&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world;

You might say its God's part through our part in many cases.

dan p
Apr 9th 2009, 11:45 PM
There aren't any, because it's something that happens to you - it's 100% a work of God's Spirit and is the cause, not the result of saving faith.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God... 1 Jn 5:1a ESV

So you're born of God, then you believe - not the other way round. Look at it this way - when a child is born, he enters the world, he sees, he cries - he is born BEFORE all these things happen - he isn't born from above AFTER he follows certain instructions!

You might as well say what are the instructions for becoming a human being!

Can I recommend that you get a hold of John Piper's latest book, Finally Alive, that looks at this crucially important topic in some depth?

1) Can you clarify , please , for 1 John 5:1 says , whosoever beliveth .

2) Does not say , whosoever is born , does it ?

3) Rom 10:9 says that you believe first in your heart , thou shalt be saved .

4) How do you reconcile 1 John 5:1a , with Rom 10:9 and Eph 2:8 , it looks like problem when you use the Gospels and then try to use Paul .

5) Paul says that we are a new creation in Christ , and how does this sq. with born again ?

bagofseed
Apr 10th 2009, 05:50 AM
How much faith is saving faith?
How much to you have to believe in your heart.
Is just a little ok, or does believe mean to fully believe.

Is the faith of a mustard seed or the faith the size of a mustard seed?

9Marksfan
Apr 10th 2009, 10:52 AM
I completely disagree.

No surprsies there! ;)


Ephesians 1
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The order is shown clearly here. There is no reason to think that we are born of the Spirit, then we believe, then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Why not? The Spirit works in many ways.


What reason is there to think that we are not born of the Spirit at the same time we are sealed with the Spirit? The passage above shows this happens after we believe.

What reason is there to think that we are? We need to have spiritual life before we can do anything spiritual - believing is a spiritual activity, which spirtually dead people are incapable of doing. Once we believe (even allowing for the KJV's questionable "two stage" translation), we are then sealed with the Spirit.


I believe you are misinterpreting 1 John 5:1 and reading something into it that isn't there. Unfortunately, there are various translations of this verse, which differ fairly significantly.

You already quoted from the ESV. Here is the verse from the KJV:

1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The NIV, NASB, Amplified, NKJV all have "is born of God" rather than "has been born of God".

They can actually mean the same thing - elsewhere in his letter, John uses this type of language where I'm sure you would agree it means "has been born of God".


But it doesn't really make a difference as it relates to my point which is that the verse does not specifically say that one is first born of God and then believes. It also doesn't specifically say that one believes and is then born of God. This verse simply can't be used on either side of the argument. All it's saying is that the one who believes is also born of God. In my view it is because someone believes that they are born of God. But I wouldn't try to use that particular verse to support my view and neither should you.

Thanks for your fair concession - however, while there is a slight ambiguity, when looking at the way John uses this tye of phrase and when one understands that his letter is about what the marks of being born of God are, it becomes clear that my understanding is the natural reading in context.


Should I look at the KJV version and think that it's saying "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is then born of God"? No, that would be adding something that isn't there.

That's quite correct - but since that's what you DO believe, what scriptural warrant do you have from other parts of the bible for doing so?


Likewise, you have no basis for changing the text of the ESV as if it says "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has previously been born of God before they believed".

I'm not changing the text - that's what the ESV says! When a present tense verb is used next to a past tense verb, it shows that the past tense thing happened first! :B


Let me illustrate this for you. I'll refer to my own condition. I believe that Jesus is the Christ and I have been born of God. Now, how exactly am I saying anything about which came first, the believing or being born of God, with that statement? Clearly, I'm not. Yet that is the way you read 1 John 5:1, as if it is actually saying anything about which comes first. It doesn't.

Do you believe that at the time we are born of God we become children of God? I do.

Not in every sense - not adopted.


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I believe that is speaking of adoption, which is the context.


Seems to me that in order to be born of God and be a child of God it requires faith in Christ Jesus. Being born of God and becoming a child of God are the result of having put one's faith in Christ.

This would only be valid if scripture ever made being born naturally analagous to being born of the Spirit. But it never does.

So why does it refer to regeneration as the new birth, if that's a really bad and inappropriate analogy?


No. ;)

I wasn't speaking to you - but you've got a really open mind, haven't you?

9Marksfan
Apr 10th 2009, 11:07 AM
1) Can you clarify , please , for 1 John 5:1 says , whosoever beliveth .

2) Does not say , whosoever is born , does it ?

OK - here's an anaolgy - whoever is an inmate at Levernworth is a convicted felon. Now, do you have to become an inmate to become a felon?!?! Of course not! But the fact that you are an inmate SHOWS you are a convicted felon! (Now, PLEASE don't say "but there are other prisons/types of crime" - I know the analogy has its limitations but please try to see my point).


3) Rom 10:9 says that you believe first in your heart , thou shalt be saved.

I don't equate being born again with being saved - both are essential but I believe that they are distinct apsects of soteriology. Also, the Greek tense is continuous - if you are confessing/are believing, you will be saved - it's not in the aorist tense - a one off act with ongoing consequences.


4) How do you reconcile 1 John 5:1a , with Rom 10:9 and Eph 2:8 , it looks like problem when you use the Gospels and then try to use Paul.

As I said, I believe one has to be born again first, then believe, then be saved.


5) Paul says that we are a new creation in Christ , and how does this sq. with born again ?

It actually says that is anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation - the language allows for the new creation to come first.

9Marksfan
Apr 10th 2009, 11:09 AM
You might say its God's part through our part in many cases.


Agreed, if the parts that don't apply are GOD'S part alone, rather than OUR part alone - agreed?

9Marksfan
Apr 10th 2009, 11:10 AM
Lively:

How to be saved from your sins...

God's Part:

God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, extended GRACE to man at the cross at Calvary. Jesus Christ, the sinless Lamb of God, was crucified shedding his blood for the sins of man, was buried, and rose again the third day victorious over sin and death!
1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)

Man's Part:

To HEAR the gospel... So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:17 (KJV), Rom 1:16 (KJV)

To have FAITH ... which only comes by hearing the Word of God and without which it is impossible to please God
Rom 10:17 (KJV), Rom 1:16 (KJV), Eph 2:8-10 (KJV), Heb 11:6 (KJV)

To REPENT ... of (turn from) your sins
Luke 13:3-5 (KJV), Acts 2:38 (KJV), Acts 3:19 (KJV), 2 Cor 7:10 (KJV)

To CONFESS ... with your mouth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Rom 10:9-10 (KJV), Mat 10:32 (KJV), Luke 12:8 (KJV), Acts 8:37 (KJV)

To be BAPTIZED ... (immersed, in water, not sprinkled) into Jesus Christ to have your sins forgiven (washed away)by the blood of Christ by faith in him.
Mat 28:19-20 (KJV), Mark 16:16 (KJV), John 3:3-5 (KJV), Acts 2:38 (KJV), Acts 8:35-39 (KJV), Acts 10:47-48 (KJV), Acts 22:16 (KJV), Rom 6:3-17 (KJV), 1 Cor 12:13 (KJV), 1 Cor 15:29 (KJV), Gal 3:27 (KJV), Eph 4:5 (KJV), Eph 5:26 (KJV), Col 2:11-13 (KJV), 1 Pet 3:20-21 (KJV)

To CONTINUE in faith ... to live a faithful life in Christ and not allow yourself to be moved away from the hope of the Gospel
Acts 14:22 (KJV), Col 1:23 (KJV), Rev 3:5 (KJV)

How is that not salvation by works (our efforts)?