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divaD
May 8th 2009, 03:59 PM
Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans




There's the text that tells the story. Some would argue that Simon believed, and was baptized, but for all the wrong reasons, thus making him never saved, even tho he went thru all the motions. The question I'm getting at, is it possible to believe, to be baptized, yet not even be saved? Does this account in Acts show that as a possibility?
This account seems to be a little different than simply falling away. Was Simon's heart ever in the right place in the first place?

-SEEKING-
May 8th 2009, 04:08 PM
Never heard that theory before. And I'm not so sure that this implies that he believed and was baptized for the wrong reasons.

divaD
May 8th 2009, 04:16 PM
Never heard that theory before. And I'm not so sure that this implies that he believed and was baptized for the wrong reasons.



Actually, this is not my theory, but I have seen this theory argued on other boards. There's a lot of interesting facts disclosed in this text. Personally, I could go either way at this point...I'm pretty much undecided, thus wondering what others think.

-SEEKING-
May 8th 2009, 04:21 PM
Well it's definitely interesting. Thanks for asking. I'd like to see what others think as well.

Slug1
May 8th 2009, 04:38 PM
Actually, this is not my theory, but I have seen this theory argued on other boards. There's a lot of interesting facts disclosed in this text. Personally, I could go either way at this point...I'm pretty much undecided, thus wondering what others think.Two separate events. First.. believing and being saved, then baptised in water (not required for salvation) is one . Cornelious believed in the Lord (thus saved) and was baptised in the Holy Spirit prior to his water baptism. Those men that Paul met on the road in Acts 19 where saved and received a water baptism but had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which leads to...

The other is when a person receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and manifests with the evidence of speaking in tongues and is empowered to do the will of God (manifistations from v13 in the scripture you have posted). How did this Simon "see" (v18) that they had received what they did when hands were laid upon them? Doesn't say it in that scripture but in so many others, we must assume they began to speak in tongues and began to do signs themselves...

Simon wanted this (coveted) and would pay for it... so many Christians do this today when they fake it (form of purchase) to fit in with denominations that require speaking in tongues to be "saved"... this scripture shows us how wrong they are.

edit: Thought... as Peter discerned, Simon's heart was all wrong and from this I would say from the beginning the fact that Simon "believed" was lip service to "get" what the Apostles had in their relationship with God and thus they were empowered by His Holy Spirit and able to be used to bring Glory to God. Seem's that Simon wanted glory for himself based on his past.

divaD
May 8th 2009, 07:31 PM
Two separate events. First.. believing and being saved, then baptised in water (not required for salvation) is one . Cornelious believed in the Lord (thus saved) and was baptised in the Holy Spirit prior to his water baptism. Those men that Paul met on the road in Acts 19 where saved and received a water baptism but had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which leads to...

The other is when a person receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and manifests with the evidence of speaking in tongues and is empowered to do the will of God (manifistations from v13 in the scripture you have posted). How did this Simon "see" (v18) that they had received what they did when hands were laid upon them? Doesn't say it in that scripture but in so many others, we must assume they began to speak in tongues and began to do signs themselves...

Simon wanted this (coveted) and would pay for it... so many Christians do this today when they fake it (form of purchase) to fit in with denominations that require speaking in tongues to be "saved"... this scripture shows us how wrong they are.

edit: Thought... as Peter discerned, Simon's heart was all wrong and from this I would say from the beginning the fact that Simon "believed" was lip service to "get" what the Apostles had in their relationship with God and thus they were empowered by His Holy Spirit and able to be used to bring Glory to God. Seem's that Simon wanted glory for himself based on his past.




Slug1, based on what you stated, would you conclude that Simon was saved, or never really saved.

On another particular board, what basically got this discussion started was Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Some were discussing what is required to be saved. One person used Mark 16:16 to support his position. That is when another person used Acts 8 to refute that position. he stated that Simon performed the requirements of Mark 16:16, yet that the text in Acts 8 reveals that Simon wasn't even saved. Personally, I was only an observer of that thread, I never participated in it, but as an observer, I noticed both positions brought up some interesting points.

This is why I decided to start a thread on this board. It just seemed like an interesting discussion...but since everyone has different interests in life, what I may see as interesting, someone else may see as boring and uninteresting. So anyway, this was my reason for this thread, because I find it interesting, and not that I support one position over the other. This is probably one of these threads where I might play both sides, in order to determine which position holds the most merit.

uric3
May 8th 2009, 09:10 PM
Two separate events. First.. believing and being saved, then baptised in water (not required for salvation) is one . Cornelious believed in the Lord (thus saved) and was baptised in the Holy Spirit prior to his water baptism. Those men that Paul met on the road in Acts 19 where saved and received a water baptism but had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which leads to...

The other is when a person receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and manifests with the evidence of speaking in tongues and is empowered to do the will of God (manifistations from v13 in the scripture you have posted). How did this Simon "see" (v18) that they had received what they did when hands were laid upon them? Doesn't say it in that scripture but in so many others, we must assume they began to speak in tongues and began to do signs themselves...

Simon wanted this (coveted) and would pay for it... so many Christians do this today when they fake it (form of purchase) to fit in with denominations that require speaking in tongues to be "saved"... this scripture shows us how wrong they are.

edit: Thought... as Peter discerned, Simon's heart was all wrong and from this I would say from the beginning the fact that Simon "believed" was lip service to "get" what the Apostles had in their relationship with God and thus they were empowered by His Holy Spirit and able to be used to bring Glory to God. Seem's that Simon wanted glory for himself based on his past.

I have to say I disagree with this and part of it I won't go into detail with since I don't want to derail the thread.

A.) The part about baptism I do disagree with... and the only reason those in Acts 10 got the spirit first is because God wanted to prove to Peter and the Jews present that gentiles was accepted... otherwise had God not done this they would have not accepted the Gentiles nor let them obey the Gospel... notice Acts 10:28, and Acts 10:47 "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?" granted had God not done that I think they would have because look at Acts 11:18 Peter had to defend himself for preaching to the Gentiles... Then of course Peter answers how could I withstand God. Then we have vs 18 "When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."" Thus this was a one time deal and they still had to be baptized into water according to Acts 10:47-48. Thus Mark 16:16; Acts 2:37-38; 1st Peter 3:20-21, etc all still apply.

B.) To say Simon wasn't saved puts us in the place of Judge and we don't have enough to really see either way... but from what I gather he obeyed and wanted to do what was right.

C.) When he does offer them money it wasn't for the speaking in tounges or anything of that sort he wanted. I think he may have already had that... seeing that apostles laid their hands on the people so they got those gifts.

I think Simon wanted that abilty the ability to give the Holy Spirt to whom ever he laid his hands on. According to Acts 8:18

" 18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.""

Thus showing he probably already had the other gifts just not that one... otherwise he may have ask for speaking in tongues or something else as well...

C) He is told to pray so that the thought of his heart may be forgiven... for various reasons I don't think one has the avenue of prayer to God unless s/he is already a Christian. (won't go into detail here due to the thread)

So in light of these things I think he obeyed and then fell away... which is noted to happening to others in varoius other passages...

See James 5:19; Matt 18:15-17

NotMyOwn
May 8th 2009, 10:26 PM
I think verse 21 basically says that he wasn't saved because "his heart was not right with God."



Receiving the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands was given only to the apostles. Just like when Jesus breathed on the disciples in John 20:23.

divaD
May 8th 2009, 10:44 PM
I think verse 21 basically says that he wasn't saved because "his heart was not right with God."








This would be a good place to start. With verse 21 in mind, what was it that caused Simon to believe, and to be baptized, in the first place? Does one generally believe, and get baptized, if their heart's not in it to begin with?

RogerW
May 8th 2009, 11:14 PM
This would be a good place to start. With verse 21 in mind, what was it that caused Simon to believe, and to be baptized, in the first place? Does one generally believe, and get baptized, if their heart's not in it to begin with?

Hi David,

I got the name right :pp! Does the following passage help shed some light on your question?

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
May 8th 2009, 11:51 PM
Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans




There's the text that tells the story. Some would argue that Simon believed, and was baptized, but for all the wrong reasons, thus making him never saved, even tho he went thru all the motions. The question I'm getting at, is it possible to believe, to be baptized, yet not even be saved? Does this account in Acts show that as a possibility?
This account seems to be a little different than simply falling away. Was Simon's heart ever in the right place in the first place?


This is a hard question. I tend to think he was saved. However, he did go on to lead one of the major Gnostic movements of the day. So, it may be that he was just playing along. It really is hard to say.

Slug1
May 9th 2009, 02:49 AM
Slug1, based on what you stated, would you conclude that Simon was saved, or never really saved.I'll address this first... hard to say but based on what we read... no. Am I right... probably not. When I was saved I was deep in my addiction to fantasy lust and masturbation. It lasted for a number of years after I gave my heart to Jesus but did things my way until I met a pastor that was led by the Holy Spirit and had to deliver me of some demons. So here I am today free from that addiction and still maturing in my walk with Jesus.

Based on what you just read, was I saved in those years I struggled?

So much is left out of what I gave you in that snapshot just as it is in the snapshot of Simon we have in the Bible.

chad
May 9th 2009, 10:15 AM
Simon probably believed becuase of all the Miracles that he saw that were being performed, but his motivation for wanting the Holy Spirit was not right. Was he saved? Verse 13 says he was.

Was his heart right regarding wanting to offer money so that he could have the power to lay hands on others so they could recieve the Holy Spirit. No.


Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans

There's the text that tells the story. Some would argue that Simon believed, and was baptized, but for all the wrong reasons, thus making him never saved, even tho he went thru all the motions. The question I'm getting at, is it possible to believe, to be baptized, yet not even be saved? Does this account in Acts show that as a possibility?
This account seems to be a little different than simply falling away. Was Simon's heart ever in the right place in the first place?

RogerW
May 9th 2009, 11:55 AM
It seems that some assume Simon was saved because it says that he believed. To believe means that one has faith. Therefore it would be wrong to say Simon did not have faith. Clearly he had faith (believed) something in respect to what he had heard and seen about Christ, or was his faith in those apostles he had seen doing wonderous signs?

Believed - pisteuo to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

James tells us that even the devils believe in one God. So even devils have faith (same as Simons), but we would not assume the devils are saved just because they have faith.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

It is not enough to simply believe something about God. Through creation, and conscience God tells us that all men have a knowledge of God, but that does not mean they "know" Him unto salvation. If believing, or having faith remains like that of the devils (and this is how Simon believed), then he cannot be saved. Believing MUST be accompanied by the indwelling Spirit for it to become saving faith. You cannot simply say you believe and remain without the Spirit that gives life and be a Christian.

Mk 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark should be read "He that believes and is cleansed by the Holy Spirit shall be saved; but he that never has saving faith shall be damned."

This is what Simon lacked. He had faith (believed) in something, but he was never cleansed by the power of God, he was simply dunked, dipped or sprinkled with water, and baptism in water does not cleanse us inwardly.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
May 9th 2009, 12:44 PM
B.) To say Simon wasn't saved puts us in the place of Judge and we don't have enough to really see either way... but from what I gather he obeyed and wanted to do what was right.

C.) When he does offer them money it wasn't for the speaking in tounges or anything of that sort he wanted. I think he may have already had that... seeing that apostles laid their hands on the people so they got those gifts.

I think Simon wanted that abilty the ability to give the Holy Spirt to whom ever he laid his hands on. According to Acts 8:18

" 18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.""

Thus showing he probably already had the other gifts just not that one... otherwise he may have ask for speaking in tongues or something else as well...

C) He is told to pray so that the thought of his heart may be forgiven... for various reasons I don't think one has the avenue of prayer to God unless s/he is already a Christian. (won't go into detail here due to the thread)

So in light of these things I think he obeyed and then fell away... which is noted to happening to others in varoius other passages...

See James 5:19; Matt 18:15-17

Greetings Uric,

I think you are correct if you are saying there was still hope for Simon. But we have enough information from the passage to conclude that though Simon believed something and he had been baptized in the name of the Lord, it is evident that he was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, therefore he had not been born again.

However, as I said, the passage shows us there is still hope for Simon because when Peter confronted him of his wickedness Simon shows remorse for his evil heart. He could only feel the gall of bitterness, and the bond of iniquity because his conscience was guilty when he heard. The best proof that there is still hope for Simon is that he ask Peter to pray to the Lord for him, that he too could be delivered from the curse of his sins, and made free from the wrath of God.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Whether or not Simon's guilty conscience was only temporary, and he later went back to his wicked thoughts, we do not know. But we do know that guilt of our sin is the first step in recognizing our need for the Savior.

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
May 9th 2009, 01:13 PM
Greetings Uric,

I think you are correct if you are saying there was still hope for Simon. But we have enough information from the passage to conclude that though Simon believed something and he had been baptized in the name of the Lord, it is evident that he was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, therefore he had not been born again.

However, as I said, the passage shows us there is still hope for Simon because when Peter confronted him of his wickedness Simon shows remorse for his evil heart. He could only feel the gall of bitterness, and the bond of iniquity because his conscience was guilty when he heard. The best proof that there is still hope for Simon is that he ask Peter to pray to the Lord for him, that he too could be delivered from the curse of his sins, and made free from the wrath of God.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Whether or not Simon's guilty conscience was only temporary, and he later went back to his wicked thoughts, we do not know. But we do know that guilt of our sin is the first step in recognizing our need for the Savior.

Many Blessings,
RW


Hi Roger. Why didn't Simon just pray to the Lord himself? If Simon had had a personal relationship with the Lord like he professed(the believing, and being baptized), then why did he insist that Peter pray to the Lord for him? Doesn't verse 22 show us that Simon himself needed to pray to the Lord?

And BTW, you indeed got my name right.:)

RogerW
May 9th 2009, 01:27 PM
Hi Roger. Why didn't Simon just pray to the Lord himself? If Simon had had a personal relationship with the Lord like he professed(the believing, and being baptized), then why did he insist that Peter pray to the Lord for him? Doesn't verse 22 show us that Simon himself needed to pray to the Lord?

And BTW, you indeed got my name right.:)

Hi David,

We are on the same page. That was my point also. If Simon had been baptized (cleansed) by the Holy Spirit, he would not have to ask another to pray for him. I think this shows Simon, though he believed in something, and he had received baptism in water, he was not born again of the Spirit, he did not possess Spiritual life unto salvation. That doesn't mean he never would or could, but at that time he had not been saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 02:56 PM
It seems that some assume Simon was saved because it says that he believed. To believe means that one has faith. Therefore it would be wrong to say Simon did not have faith. Clearly he had faith (believed) something in respect to what he had heard and seen about Christ, or was his faith in those apostles he had seen doing wonderous signs?

Believed - pisteuo to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

James tells us that even the devils believe in one God. So even devils have faith (same as Simons), but we would not assume the devils are saved just because they have faith.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

It is not enough to simply believe something about God. Through creation, and conscience God tells us that all men have a knowledge of God, but that does not mean they "know" Him unto salvation. If believing, or having faith remains like that of the devils (and this is how Simon believed), then he cannot be saved. Believing MUST be accompanied by the indwelling Spirit for it to become saving faith. You cannot simply say you believe and remain without the Spirit that gives life and be a Christian.

Mk 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark should be read "He that believes and is cleansed by the Holy Spirit shall be saved; but he that never has saving faith shall be damned."

This is what Simon lacked. He had faith (believed) in something, but he was never cleansed by the power of God, he was simply dunked, dipped or sprinkled with water, and baptism in water does not cleanse us inwardly.

Many Blessings,
RW

Wow, that's an interpretation that adds quite a bit to the statement in Mark. Especially since Mark 16 speaks of water. I thought John the baptist said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit, not men.

Also, don't you think that Luke, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, know what word to use to describe Simon's belief? He uses the same word that is used to describe believers. As far as the devils, it is the same word again. I think many of the devils probably would be saved if the were able, however, salvation is not offered to the devils. They do however believe the Jesus is the Son of God.

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 03:00 PM
Hi David,

We are on the same page. That was my point also. If Simon had been baptized (cleansed) by the Holy Spirit, he would not have to ask another to pray for him. I think this shows Simon, though he believed in something, and he had received baptism in water, he was not born again of the Spirit, he did not possess Spiritual life unto salvation. That doesn't mean he never would or could, but at that time he had not been saved.

Many Blessings,
RW


Roger,

Don't you think this is a leap from what the Scriptures say? If you saw Peter giving the holy Spirit wouldn't you want him to pray for you? Simon saw a man who had a direct connection to God.

chad
May 10th 2009, 07:03 AM
Hi Butch,

I think that is a great point. Of course Simon would want the Holy Spirit, who wouldn't. All the other believers were recieving the gift from God, the Holy Spirit, Simon wanted it too.

But he had the wrong motive for wanting it. Peter says in Acts 8:23 I see you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.

Could his bitterness be because he had practiced sorcery and he boasted he was someone great and he had the attention of all the people.

When Philip came and preached the gosped and God performed miracles, Simon was nothing. He had been stripped of all his power and authority becuase no one believed in him anymore.

He wanted the ability to lay hands on believers (so they may recieve the Holy Spirit) so badly, that he offered money to Peter and John. If he had the power, then possibly he could boast he was someone great again.

Simon was not right before God (8:21), but he did ask them (Peter and John) to pray for forgiveness on his behalf. (Simon was asking for help).

There the account ends. The Bible does not say anything more about Simon, so we do not know if later on Simon made his heart right with God and later recieved the Holy Spirit.



Roger,

Don't you think this is a leap from what the Scriptures say? If you saw Peter giving the holy Spirit wouldn't you want him to pray for you? Simon saw a man who had a direct connection to God.

divaD
May 10th 2009, 01:19 PM
He wanted the ability to lay hands on believers (so they may recieve the Holy Spirit) so badly, that he offered money to Peter
and John. If he had the power, then possibly he could boast he was someone great again.


Exactly! And that was his motive for wanting the Holy Ghost. He wanted to be in control
again. And something else, if this passage doesn't prove the the gifts of miracles, healings, tongues, etc of the Spirit have ceased, then I don't know what to say. This passage makes it clear that the gifts were transfered thru the laying on of the hands of the apostles. I'm pretty certain that none of these apostles are still around today. This was probably why Simon wanted the same power as the apostles. Had they only laid hands on him, he would be able to receive the gifts of miracles, healings, tongues, etc of the Spirit, but he wouldn't have the ability to pass that power on to others, which was what he was wanting.

Slug1
May 10th 2009, 01:55 PM
But the office of the Apostle hasn't ended yet:

Ephesians 4:10-12 (New King James Version)

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,


The Body of Christ is still equiped today.

If Simon's heart was right, he would have.

Butch5
May 11th 2009, 12:56 AM
Hi Butch,

I think that is a great point. Of course Simon would want the Holy Spirit, who wouldn't. All the other believers were recieving the gift from God, the Holy Spirit, Simon wanted it too.

But he had the wrong motive for wanting it. Peter says in Acts 8:23 I see you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.

Could his bitterness be because he had practiced sorcery and he boasted he was someone great and he had the attention of all the people.

When Philip came and preached the gosped and God performed miracles, Simon was nothing. He had been stripped of all his power and authority becuase no one believed in him anymore.

He wanted the ability to lay hands on believers (so they may recieve the Holy Spirit) so badly, that he offered money to Peter and John. If he had the power, then possibly he could boast he was someone great again.

Simon was not right before God (8:21), but he did ask them (Peter and John) to pray for forgiveness on his behalf. (Simon was asking for help).

There the account ends. The Bible does not say anything more about Simon, so we do not know if later on Simon made his heart right with God and later recieved the Holy Spirit.


Hi Chad,

I think you're correct in your assessment. However, we do know what happened with Simon, the Early Church Fathers tell us that Simon went on to be a leading figure in the Gnostic movement which the Church Fathers fought hard against. So, He never did get his heart right with God.

Here is a clip from Ignatius, writing to the Philadelphians.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

If any one preaches the one God of the law and the prophets, but denies Christ to be the Son of God, he is a liar, even as also is his father the devil, (Comp. John 8:44) and is a Jew falsely so called, being possessed of mere carnal circumcision. If any one confesses Christ Jesus the Lord, but denies the God of the law and of the prophets, saying that the Father of Christ is not the Maker of heaven and earth, he has not continued in the truth any more than his father the devil, (Comp. John 8:44) and is a disciple of Simon Magus, not of the Holy Spirit.

Here is what Irenaeus says of Simon,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Chap. XXIII.—Doctrines and Practices of Simon Magus and Menander. 1. Simon the Samaritan was that magician of whom Luke, the disciple and follower of the apostles, says, “But there was a certain man, Simon by name, who beforetime used magical arts in that city, and led astray the people of Samaria, declaring that he himself was some great one, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This is the power of God, which is called great. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had driven them mad by his sorceries.” (Acts 8:9-11) This Simon, then—who feigned faith, supposing that the apostles themselves performed their cures by the art of magic, and not by the power of God; and with respect to their filling with the Holy Ghost, through the imposition of hands, those that believed in God through Him who was preached by them, namely, Christ Jesus—suspecting that even this was done through a kind of greater knowledge of magic, and offering money to the apostles, thought he, too, might receive this power of bestowing the Holy Spirit on whomsoever he would,—was addressed in these words by Peter: “Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God can be purchased with money: thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter, for thy heart is not right in the sight of God; for I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.” (Acts 8:20, 21, 23) He, then, not putting faith in God a whit the more, set himself eagerly to contend against the apostles, in order that he himself might seem to be a wonderful being, and applied himself with still greater zeal to the study of the whole magic art, that he might the better bewilder and overpower multitudes of men. Such was his procedure in the reign of Claudius Caesar, by whom also he is said to have been honoured with a statue, on account of his 348 magical power. This man, then, was glorified by many as if he were a god; and he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son, but descended in Samaria as the Father while he came to other nations in the character of the Holy Spirit. He represented himself, in a word, as being the loftiest of all powers, that is, the Being who is the Father over all, and he allowed himself to be called by whatsoever title men were pleased to address him. 2. Now this Simon of Samaria, from whom all sorts of heresies derive their origin, formed his sect out of the following materials:—Having redeemed from slavery at Tyre, a city of Phoenicia, a certain woman named Helena, he was in the habit of carrying her about with him, declaring that this woman was the first conception of his mind, the mother of all, by whom, in the beginning, he conceived in his mind [the thought] of forming angels and archangels. For this Ennoea leaping forth from him, and comprehending the will of her father, descended to the lower regions [of space], and generated angels and powers, by whom also he declared this word was formed. But after she had produced them, she was detained by them through motives of jealousy, because they were unwilling to be looked upon as the progeny of any other being. As to himself, they had no knowledge of him whatever; but his Ennoea was detained by those powers and angels who had been produced by her. She suffered all kinds of contumely from them, so that she could not return upwards to her father, but was even shut up in a human body, and for ages passed in succession from one female body to another, as from vessel to vessel. She was, for example, in that Helen on whose account the Trojan war was undertaken; for whose sake also Stesichorus was struck blind, because he had cursed her in his verses, but afterwards, repenting and writing what are called palinodes, in which he sang her praise, he was restored to sight. Thus she, passing from body to body, and suffering insults in every one of them, at last became a common prostitute; and she it was that was meant by the lost sheep. (Matt. 18:12)
3. For this purpose, then, he had come that he might win her first, and free her from slavery, while he conferred salvation upon men, by making himself known to them. For since the angels ruled the world ill because each one of them coveted the principal power for himself, he had come to amend matters, and had descended, transfigured and assimilated to powers and principalities and angels, so that he might appear among men to be a man, while yet he was not a man; and that thus he was thought to have suffered in Judaea, when he had not suffered. Moreover, the prophets uttered their predictions under the inspiration of those angels who formed the world; for which reason those who place their trust in him and Helena no longer regarded them, but, as being free, live as they please; for men are saved through his grace, and not on account of their own righteous actions. For such deeds are not righteous in the nature of things, but by mere accident, just as those angels who made the world, have thought fit to constitute them, seeking, by means of such precepts, to bring men into bondage. On this account, he pledged himself that the world should be dissolved, and that those who are his should be freed from the rule of them who made the world.
4. Thus, then, the mystic priests belonging to this sect both lead profligate lives and practise magical arts, each one to the extent of his ability. They use exorcisms and incantations. Love-potions, too, and charms, as well as those beings who are called “Paredri” (familiars) and “Oniropompi” (dream-senders), and whatever other curious arts can be had recourse to, are eagerly pressed into their service. They also have an image of Simon fashioned after the likeness of Jupiter, and another of Helena in the shape of Minerva; and these they worship. In fine, they have a name derived from Simon, the author of these most impious doctrines, being called Simonians; and from them “knowledge, falsely so called,” (1 Tim. 6:20) received its beginning, as one may learn even from their own assertions.
5. The successor of this man was Menander, also a Samaritan by birth, and he, too, was a perfect adept in the practice of magic. He affirms that the primary Power continues unknown to all, but that he himself is the person who has been sent forth from the presence of the invisible beings as a saviour, for the deliverance of men. The world was made by angels, whom, like Simon, he maintains to have been produced by Ennoea. He gives, too, as he affirms, by means of that magic which he teaches, knowledge to this effect, that one may overcome those very angels that made the world; for his disciples obtain the resurrection by being baptized into him, and can die no more, but remain in the possession of immortal youth.

Butch5
May 11th 2009, 01:00 AM
Exactly! And that was his motive for wanting the Holy Ghost. He wanted to be in control
again. And something else, if this passage doesn't prove the the gifts of miracles, healings, tongues, etc of the Spirit have ceased, then I don't know what to say. This passage makes it clear that the gifts were transfered thru the laying on of the hands of the apostles. I'm pretty certain that none of these apostles are still around today. This was probably why Simon wanted the same power as the apostles. Had they only laid hands on him, he would be able to receive the gifts of miracles, healings, tongues, etc of the Spirit, but he wouldn't have the ability to pass that power on to others, which was what he was wanting.

You are correct David, Only the apostles of Christ could do so. Notice that Phillip was not able to do so even though he had been the one who brought the gospel to them. It was necessary for Peter and John to go down and do so.

Butch5
May 11th 2009, 01:01 AM
But the office of the Apostle hasn't ended yet:

Ephesians 4:10-12 (New King James Version)

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,


The Body of Christ is still equiped today.

If Simon's heart was right, he would have.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

Slug1
May 11th 2009, 01:41 AM
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,Ummm, so are you saying "He" isn't doing this today? Jesus is, otherwise we'd not have the Office of the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist etc today.

In 1 Timothy 5, elders (not Apostles) are instructed to not be hasty in the laying on of hands... I'm sure the example given to us with Simon is just one of the reasons for this? As elders, we have to use a Gift of the Holy Spirit which is called Discernment when laying on of hands. Anyone can come forward for prayer and receive prayer but if people come forward requesting laying on of hands, if the Lord isn't gonna answer this for whatever the reason then as elders, we are not led to do it. Sometimes we're led to call people forward to lay hands on, as the Holy Spirit leads us. Simon is a perfect example that shows us what we want and what we get are two different things as the Lord knows all and leads any vessel He may choose. Elders are selected by God to be used for His purpose and empowered.

Ya think that within a Body of Christ... a church were the pastor is away for any reason and the Sunday service is held by the chruch elders that the Holy Spirit isn't flowing cause the pastor is gone or that the Holy Spirit only flows and minifests when an Apostle is present?

chad
May 11th 2009, 10:35 AM
Hi Butch,

Thanks for posting. I don't have the writings of the Early church fathers to study, but I was able to look it up in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magnus


Yes, It appears Simon did not get his heart right before God.


Thanks

Chad



Hi Chad,

I think you're correct in your assessment. However, we do know what happened with Simon, the Early Church Fathers tell us that Simon went on to be a leading figure in the Gnostic movement which the Church Fathers fought hard against. So, He never did get his heart right with God.

slightlypuzzled
May 11th 2009, 03:36 PM
Ummm, so are you saying "He" isn't doing this today? Jesus is, otherwise we'd not have the Office of the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist etc today.

In 1 Timothy 5, elders (not Apostles) are instructed to not be hasty in the laying on of hands... I'm sure the example given to us with Simon is just one of the reasons for this? As elders, we have to use a Gift of the Holy Spirit which is called Discernment when laying on of hands. Anyone can come forward for prayer and receive prayer but if people come forward requesting laying on of hands, if the Lord isn't gonna answer this for whatever the reason then as elders, we are not led to do it. Sometimes we're led to call people forward to lay hands on, as the Holy Spirit leads us. Simon is a perfect example that shows us what we want and what we get are two different things as the Lord knows all and leads any vessel He may choose. Elders are selected by God to be used for His purpose and empowered.

Ya think that within a Body of Christ... a church were the pastor is away for any reason and the Sunday service is held by the chruch elders that the Holy Spirit isn't flowing cause the pastor is gone or that the Holy Spirit only flows and minifests when an Apostle is present?

As regards the '(O)(o)ffice of (A)(a)postle', there are several ways to see this. In Acts 1:15-26. The Apostles were to be witnesses of all that Jesus had actually done during his whole ministry. (A look at Luke 1:1-4 will give a hint as to how important this witness was.). Paul was personally taught by Jesus Himself. In several of his letters, Paul stresses that his calling is due to God and to Jeus Christ, Paul was a 'marked man' from God's perspective. (Gal. 1:15-16.) If you read such passages as Heb. 2;1-4, the writer in verse lies lays great stress on the believers '...paying attention to what we heard' and then proceeds to delineate from whom they heard it and how that first preaching was confirmed, we see the stress on 'witnesses' and the content of the message. John, in 1 John 1:1, testifies to what he has seen, heard, felt and touched with his own hands....he had walked with Living Message Himself. There are a whole range of scripture that stress this 'up close and personal' message. I believe it was this view of 'Aposlte' (not the big 'A') that is behind what Paul says in Ephesians 2:20, 3:5, 4:11 (parallel in 1 Cor. 12:28). The Apostles in the New Testament writings were ones who had first hand knowledge of the Gospel and what it meant for the Christian community; they were the ensurers of the purity of the message. (You might read Paul in Galatians 1.)
Now, the word 'apostle' means 'one sent forth' and this applied to the Apostles in the New Testament. If there are apostles appointed by God today, we have to carefully weight their message with what is written in Scripture. I am aware that a few denominations have Apostles appointed (by whatever method) to lead them. If so, we must always weigh their message by what was first delivered to Christians through men chosen to do that preaching in the first century.

slightlypuzzled
May 11th 2009, 04:45 PM
Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans




There's the text that tells the story. Some would argue that Simon believed, and was baptized, but for all the wrong reasons, thus making him never saved, even tho he went thru all the motions. The question I'm getting at, is it possible to believe, to be baptized, yet not even be saved? Does this account in Acts show that as a possibility?
This account seems to be a little different than simply falling away. Was Simon's heart ever in the right place in the first place?

Paul, now an Apostle in chains, writes to Philippi to encourage in the face of their persecutions and to assure them his confidence in God even in the face of what he is personally going through. He urges them:
27Only conduct yourselves in a manner (AZ)worthy of the (BA)gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are (BB)standing firm in (BC)one spirit, with one mind (BD)striving together for the faith of the gospel;

28in no way alarmed by your opponents--which is a (BE)sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.

This carries over into the second chapter were, in the first four verses, he describes the unity that he requires of them, and then describes the humility of the Lord in giving up what He did so that we could have salvation. Paul urges, commands, them to have that same quality of mind. Recall, he has described this quality of mind in verses one through four.
His command to 'work out' in verse 12 is very emphatic. he wants obedience from them because it is God who is at work in them to do as He will. This is an act of obedience of the Philippians part. Such call to obedience are a main part of the Christian life. Paul describes this in Romans six as being a slave to righteousness, and this was a continual point of view from the Christians perspective. Baptism is just one of those acts of obedience that was commonly practiced. Peter describes it as a confession ('Appeal' in English translations) towards a clean conscience. Confession and belief are the warp and woof of how we view the world, Paul states it's importance in Romans ten. These acts of obedience and confession are a large part of who we are becoming in Christ, and baptism is just one act among many that we will face in our daily lives.

Butch5
May 12th 2009, 01:40 AM
As regards the '(O)(o)ffice of (A)(a)postle', there are several ways to see this. In Acts 1:15-26. The Apostles were to be witnesses of all that Jesus had actually done during his whole ministry. (A look at Luke 1:1-4 will give a hint as to how important this witness was.). Paul was personally taught by Jesus Himself. In several of his letters, Paul stresses that his calling is due to God and to Jeus Christ, Paul was a 'marked man' from God's perspective. (Gal. 1:15-16.) If you read such passages as Heb. 2;1-4, the writer in verse lies lays great stress on the believers '...paying attention to what we heard' and then proceeds to delineate from whom they heard it and how that first preaching was confirmed, we see the stress on 'witnesses' and the content of the message. John, in 1 John 1:1, testifies to what he has seen, heard, felt and touched with his own hands....he had walked with Living Message Himself. There are a whole range of scripture that stress this 'up close and personal' message. I believe it was this view of 'Aposlte' (not the big 'A') that is behind what Paul says in Ephesians 2:20, 3:5, 4:11 (parallel in 1 Cor. 12:28). The Apostles in the New Testament writings were ones who had first hand knowledge of the Gospel and what it meant for the Christian community; they were the ensurers of the purity of the message. (You might read Paul in Galatians 1.)
Now, the word 'apostle' means 'one sent forth' and this applied to the Apostles in the New Testament. If there are apostles appointed by God today, we have to carefully weight their message with what is written in Scripture. I am aware that a few denominations have Apostles appointed (by whatever method) to lead them. If so, we must always weigh their message by what was first delivered to Christians through men chosen to do that preaching in the first century.

Well said, I agree, an Apostle of Jesus Christ is one that was sent by Jesus Christ. There were only 12 that were sent by Jesus Christ. To these He gave power to lay hands on people and through them the gifts of the Spirit were bestowed.

ChristJesusSaves
May 12th 2009, 03:31 AM
Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans




There's the text that tells the story. Some would argue that Simon believed, and was baptized, but for all the wrong reasons, thus making him never saved, even tho he went thru all the motions. The question I'm getting at, is it possible to believe, to be baptized, yet not even be saved? Does this account in Acts show that as a possibility?
This account seems to be a little different than simply falling away. Was Simon's heart ever in the right place in the first place?

Greetings in Christ Jesus,

I believe Simon is truly a hypocrite type of Christian. Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Yeah, some people believes that water baptism is necessary to be saved but the truth is, a True Born Again Christian will obediently submit to water baptism (immersion), to show that he/she loves Christ Jesus, the One True Living God and they're not afraid to show the world he/she is Christ's follower. Amen.

In Christ Jesus,

Mario Sr.