PDA

View Full Version : Does anyone use the Jewish Siddur(Prayer Book)



AUGUSTINIAN
Jun 22nd 2009, 06:30 PM
Does anyone on this forum use the Jewish Siddur(Prayer Book)? If yes, which one and why?:wave:

crossnote
Jun 22nd 2009, 11:24 PM
Does anyone on this forum use the Jewish Siddur(Prayer Book)? If yes, which one and why?:wave:

Why? What is it? Does it surpass the Psalms? Does it invoke the name of Jesus? ...just curious.

AUGUSTINIAN
Jun 23rd 2009, 08:18 AM
Why? What is it? Does it surpass the Psalms? Does it invoke the name of Jesus? ...just curious.
ddu
No, no production of man could ever surpass the Word of God. One uses a siddur the same way one uses a devotional like ""Our Daily Bread""------with caution. Naturally the siddur does not directly invoke the name of the Lord Jesus any more than the Psalms directly does, but both directly speak and prophesise of The Lord Jesus whenever they use the names YHWH, Adonai, LORD or the Anointed or the Son.:2cents:

BroRog
Jun 23rd 2009, 02:40 PM
I guess the next question is, why would anyone use a prayer book when Jesus explicitly taught against it?

danm
Jun 23rd 2009, 06:35 PM
I guess the next question is, why would anyone use a prayer book when Jesus explicitly taught against it?

That's interesting, please tell me more .

DanM.

danm
Jun 23rd 2009, 06:45 PM
Does anyone on this forum use the Jewish Siddur(Prayer Book)? If yes, which one and why?:wave:

Not sure what you mean by which one ?
Do you mean Ashkenazi,Sephardic ?
Or do you mean weekdays and weekdays plus shabbat or including festivals?
Or do you mean Artscroll,Singers etc. ?

DanM.

BroRog
Jun 24th 2009, 02:13 AM
That's interesting, please tell me more .

DanM.

Jesus commanded his disciples to not pray with repetition as the pagans do.

Matthew 6:7

Victor
Jun 24th 2009, 07:02 AM
Jesus commanded his disciples to not pray with repetition as the pagans do.

Matthew 6:7
Does this mean that the book is meaningless

danm
Jun 24th 2009, 12:20 PM
Jesus commanded his disciples to not pray with repetition as the pagans do.

Matthew 6:7

I think the emphasis here is on meaningless and heartless "vain repetition" and "babbling on" rather than on prayers or prayer books.

DanM.

BroRog
Jun 24th 2009, 02:31 PM
Does this mean that the book is meaningless

I'm sure the prayer book has great meaning and remains inspirational. What is meaningless is the repetition of the prayer; it's an exercise in futility to keep praying the same prayer over and over again, Jesus says. The father hears you the first time, and in fact, he knows what you need before you ask.

Even the Lord's prayer was intended as a model prayer, not intended to be repeatedly prayed verbatim. The Lord's prayer is short but filled with content as if Jesus is saying, "these are the issues that should be on your heart when you come to the father."

BroRog
Jun 24th 2009, 02:41 PM
I think the emphasis here is on meaningless and heartless "vain repetition" and "babbling on" rather than on prayers or prayer books.

DanM.

The central issue is this, the pagans believed that God was a mysterious force in the universe that needed to be manipulated through various techniques if one wanted lots of crops, lots of children, and peace with neighbors. What makes repetitious prayer vain and/or futile is the fact that God is NOT a force that can be manipulated through technique.

We can use common sense with God because he is a rational being who cares deeply for us. He doesn't need to hear from us at all since he already knows what we need. And since Jesus became our propitiatory offering, we have nothing else to offer except our love and gratitude. And so, in some ways it wouldn't matter a bit if we never prayed again.

Nonetheless, we are spiritual beings with a need and desire to have an intimate relationship with our creator. And so if we naturally come to him in times of trouble or times of thanksgiving he hears our spontaneous petitions and prayers of gratitude, which have much more significance and meaning than simply mouthing the prayers from a prayer book.

danm
Jun 24th 2009, 03:38 PM
Nonetheless, we are spiritual beings with a need and desire to have an intimate relationship with our creator. And so if we naturally come to him in times of trouble or times of thanksgiving he hears our spontaneous petitions and prayers of gratitude, which have much more significance and meaning than simply mouthing the prayers from a prayer book.

Yes,that's more or less what I said.

DanM.

timmyb
Jun 24th 2009, 04:49 PM
Jesus commanded his disciples to not pray with repetition as the pagans do.

Matthew 6:7


finish the verse... he says that they think they may be heard for their many words... they pray aloud in the streets to show people how righteous they are...

if you aren't supposed to repeat your prayers... then explain the Luke 18 parable and principle that Jesus taught us... that we should cry out to God for justice day and night... i'm sure that the entire bible has been prayed over and over and over again...

i find the more I pray something... repeat it in my closet or on a prayer set with my friends, the more my faith grows... I don't do it to show people anything the Pharisees did it to put on a show of righteousness to the people, they lived their lives to exalt themselves to have the places of honor because they knew the Scriptures and because they knew the scriptures they felt that's what entitled them to have their position of honor...

it's VAIN repetition... emphasis on VAIN

BroRog
Jun 24th 2009, 07:35 PM
finish the verse... he says that they think they may be heard for their many words... they pray aloud in the streets to show people how righteous they are...

if you aren't supposed to repeat your prayers... then explain the Luke 18 parable and principle that Jesus taught us... that we should cry out to God for justice day and night... i'm sure that the entire bible has been prayed over and over and over again...

i find the more I pray something... repeat it in my closet or on a prayer set with my friends, the more my faith grows... I don't do it to show people anything the Pharisees did it to put on a show of righteousness to the people, they lived their lives to exalt themselves to have the places of honor because they knew the Scriptures and because they knew the scriptures they felt that's what entitled them to have their position of honor...

it's VAIN repetition... emphasis on VAIN

Repetition is what makes it vain. :)

I understand what you are saying about constantly returning to the Lord concerning the same subject. And I wouldn't disagree with you about that. My contention is that the Lord has something against repeating the same phrases over and over again, as one would do who is using a prayer book for example.

Paul asked three times that the Lord heal him of his infirmity, but after three times he simply stopped asking. Perhaps Paul thought that if God had not healed him after asking three times, he wasn't going to change his mind. But even in this case, Paul wasn't making his petition from a prayer book, I don't think.

timmyb
Jun 24th 2009, 09:27 PM
Repetition is what makes it vain. :)

I understand what you are saying about constantly returning to the Lord concerning the same subject. And I wouldn't disagree with you about that. My contention is that the Lord has something against repeating the same phrases over and over again, as one would do who is using a prayer book for example.

Paul asked three times that the Lord heal him of his infirmity, but after three times he simply stopped asking. Perhaps Paul thought that if God had not healed him after asking three times, he wasn't going to change his mind. But even in this case, Paul wasn't making his petition from a prayer book, I don't think.

Then why does Psalm 90 end with prayer repeated twice? Establish the works of our hands?

Most of David's psalms have the same theme... Lord deliver me from my enemies let me see your salvation... Repetition is not vain in itself... because you would not have a prayer life at all if that were the case... have you ever said the same thing in a prayer before? have you ever said the same prayer more than once?

it's not the fact of repeating something back to God... We're to cry out day and night to God according to Luke 18, i'm sure that would require some repetition to some degree... a sincere heart who desires God will not ask for something once and fear...

have you ever wanted something as a child from your parents? did you not bug the mess out of them... often saying the same thing over and over again in the form of "Daddy, Please may I have that (name your object)". Did not the woman in the city where the unrighteous judge live come to him everyday saying "give me justice" was her repetition vain? No it was birthed out of a desire for justice. God commands that our prayers to him for justice be the same... if you read Luke 18:7-8 you will see that God will avenge those who cry out day and night...

So in essence... repetition is not vain, a sincere heart who desires God will not be so conscious or fearful of what man thinks of his prayers... a man who desires God will not care what man thinks of his prayers no matter how much he says them... a man who lives in the fear of man and what he thinks will give in to manipulation and fear and total insecurity and will have absolutely no confidence in his prayers no matter how many times he says them.

We so often look at what the Pharisees did and say we won't do that because that's what the religious look like and we base our entire relationship with God based on do's and don'ts and we become more religious than they ever were because we followed what a book said instead of coming to him who was the true source... For someone who doesn't know God the Bible is nothing but a list of dos and don'ts and it's the hardest thing for a man to do

AUGUSTINIAN
Jun 24th 2009, 09:29 PM
Not sure what you mean by which one ?
Do you mean Ashkenazi,Sephardic ?
Or do you mean weekdays and weekdays plus shabbat or including festivals?
Or do you mean Artscroll,Singers etc. ?

DanM.

I do know that there are Messianic Jews on this Board, and many Messianic Jews use Siddurs in their daily devotions. I would like to know which edition(Ashkenaz or Sefard or even Teimani) they use.

As regards vain repetitions and reading set prayers, did not Martin Luther refer to the Psalms as the Prayer Book of the Bible. I would rather pray the Christ Centered prayers of the Psalms anyday than vain, man-centered prayers created out of my self-loving, sinful heart.

crossnote
Jun 25th 2009, 01:21 AM
Or check out Ps 118.
26 times out of 26 verses you read (or sing) ....
"for his mercy endureth for ever".

BroRog
Jun 25th 2009, 04:14 AM
Then why does Psalm 90 end with prayer repeated twice? Establish the works of our hands?

Most of David's psalms have the same theme... Lord deliver me from my enemies let me see your salvation... Repetition is not vain in itself... because you would not have a prayer life at all if that were the case... have you ever said the same thing in a prayer before? have you ever said the same prayer more than once?

it's not the fact of repeating something back to God... We're to cry out day and night to God according to Luke 18, i'm sure that would require some repetition to some degree... a sincere heart who desires God will not ask for something once and fear...

have you ever wanted something as a child from your parents? did you not bug the mess out of them... often saying the same thing over and over again in the form of "Daddy, Please may I have that (name your object)". Did not the woman in the city where the unrighteous judge live come to him everyday saying "give me justice" was her repetition vain? No it was birthed out of a desire for justice. God commands that our prayers to him for justice be the same... if you read Luke 18:7-8 you will see that God will avenge those who cry out day and night...

So in essence... repetition is not vain, a sincere heart who desires God will not be so conscious or fearful of what man thinks of his prayers... a man who desires God will not care what man thinks of his prayers no matter how much he says them... a man who lives in the fear of man and what he thinks will give in to manipulation and fear and total insecurity and will have absolutely no confidence in his prayers no matter how many times he says them.

We so often look at what the Pharisees did and say we won't do that because that's what the religious look like and we base our entire relationship with God based on do's and don'ts and we become more religious than they ever were because we followed what a book said instead of coming to him who was the true source... For someone who doesn't know God the Bible is nothing but a list of dos and don'ts and it's the hardest thing for a man to do

Let's turn this around. If God already knows what we need or want, shouldn't asking once be enough?

timmyb
Jun 25th 2009, 04:25 AM
Let's turn this around. If God already knows what we need or want, shouldn't asking once be enough?

Does a musician play a song once and never play it again? Do you know that the angels in heaven around God's throne have been saying the same thing for as long as they have been there... holy holy holy...

Now let's take this a step further, Jesus has been interceding at the right hand of God for as long as he's been there...

aren't we commanded to pray without ceasing... pretty soon you will run out of things to say so no matter what you will repeat your prayer...

have you read the Bible more than once... prayed the same verse more than once...

Why are you so concerned with praying limited prayers to an eternal God who's been hearing the same prayers over and over and over again for eternity? Prayer is practice for faith... how many revivalists have you read who've spent hours in the night praying to God for the same thing... revival. How many mothers have been praying the same thing every night for their lost sons?

reality is... that repetition in prayer... is like practicing anything... like reading Spurgeon's Morning and Evening or Oswald Chamers My Utmost for His Highest... those have not changed since they were first wrote.. so why should our prayers?

so why not repeat them if it builds your faith?

danm
Jun 25th 2009, 06:03 PM
I do know that there are Messianic Jews on this Board, and many Messianic Jews use Siddurs in their daily devotions. I would like to know which edition(Ashkenaz or Sefard or even Teimani) they use.

OK,I see what you mean.
My Great Granddad was an Ashkenazi Jew and I inherited his prayer book,It's pretty fragile now but I use it occasionally.

DanM.

crossnote
Jun 26th 2009, 03:37 AM
Let's turn this around. If God already knows what we need or want, shouldn't asking once be enough?

Importunity...seek (keep on seeking), knock (keep on knocking), ask ( keep on asking). :B <----- one knocking (ouch)

SIG
Jun 26th 2009, 04:49 AM
I'm always startled by the similarities I see between traditional Judaism and Catholicism. Repeat the liturgy of the Mass ad infinitum--perhaps in Latin; repeat the prayers of the Siddur throughout the day as they apply to what you are doing--perhaps in Hebrew.

These prayers are rabbinical, not Scriptural, just as much of Catholicism is based on Church tradition, and not on Scripture.


Gal 4:3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Gal 4:7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Gal 4:8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

danm
Jun 26th 2009, 04:58 PM
Hi Sig.
Yea I've always thought the same, It's almost as if they're doing it as a "just in case sort of thing"
But then (please correct me if I'm wrong) I 'spose the first Christians were a Jewish sect and the Roman Catholic church was formed from them so it could just be tradition.

I actually started a thread on the RC church but the mods moved it to World religions,as a newbie I can't get to it until I've been a member for 30 days which is 1st July.

God bless.
DanM.

BroRog
Jun 26th 2009, 07:56 PM
Does a musician play a song once and never play it again? Do you know that the angels in heaven around God's throne have been saying the same thing for as long as they have been there... holy holy holy...

Now let's take this a step further, Jesus has been interceding at the right hand of God for as long as he's been there...

aren't we commanded to pray without ceasing... pretty soon you will run out of things to say so no matter what you will repeat your prayer...

have you read the Bible more than once... prayed the same verse more than once...

Why are you so concerned with praying limited prayers to an eternal God who's been hearing the same prayers over and over and over again for eternity? Prayer is practice for faith... how many revivalists have you read who've spent hours in the night praying to God for the same thing... revival. How many mothers have been praying the same thing every night for their lost sons?

reality is... that repetition in prayer... is like practicing anything... like reading Spurgeon's Morning and Evening or Oswald Chamers My Utmost for His Highest... those have not changed since they were first wrote.. so why should our prayers?

so why not repeat them if it builds your faith?

I'm of the opinion that it takes more faith to ask God once and after that say, "not my will but yours be done."

timmyb
Jun 26th 2009, 11:15 PM
I'm of the opinion that it takes more faith to ask God once and after that say, "not my will but yours be done."

but that's not what's in the Bible at all... where's scripture to back your opinion.... because there are so many principles that back up people reaching out to God and praying in desperation for justice and mercy

AUGUSTINIAN
Jun 27th 2009, 01:23 AM
I'm always startled by the similarities I see between traditional Judaism and Catholicism. Repeat the liturgy of the Mass ad infinitum--perhaps in Latin; repeat the prayers of the Siddur throughout the day as they apply to what you are doing--perhaps in Hebrew.

These prayers are rabbinical, not Scriptural, just as much of Catholicism is based on Church tradition, and not on Scripture.


Gal 4:3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Gal 4:7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Gal 4:8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
When I read the Artscroll Siddur I am amazed at how much of the Psalms are in the Siddur. A Christian would be able to pray much of the Siddur(not all) without fear of blasphemy. Discretion is naturally needed. Younger and weaker believers should refrain from the Siddur however.