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Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2009, 01:24 PM
With regards to the following scriptures if those that endure until the end are alraedy saved why then does Jesus say that they shall be saved or that they should endure to the end?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

With the understanding that the disciples belonged to Christ why did they say that they will be saved.

Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Why should we wait until the end?

Heb 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Rev 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

markedward
Jun 23rd 2009, 03:35 PM
The initiation of salvation came by Christ's work on the cross, in which his followers' sins are covered by the blood of his sacrifice, and receive the promise of eternal life.

The consummation of salvation comes by Christ's coming, in which he issues judgment and rewards his followers with the eternal life he promised to them.

Luke 21.27-28: And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.

Christ plainly associated the "redemption" of his followers with his coming.

Romans 8.23: And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Paul places "the redemption of our bodies" as something not yet obtained.

Hebrews 9.28: ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The author of Hebrews clearly says that Christ will "save those who are eagerly waiting for him" at his coming.

1 Peter 1.5: ... who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter plainly states that "salvation" was "ready to be revealed in the last time", referring to the "end of the age" that Jesus spoke about. Hence, people are to "endure to the end". The context of the statement is about persecution; Jesus is encouraging people to endure in their faith despite persecution, as opposed to giving up their faith when hard times come. Those who give up their faith, of course, will not "be saved". But those who endure in their faith, despite persecution, "shall be saved", and they will receive the salvation Christ promised to them.

divaD
Jun 23rd 2009, 03:44 PM
Jesus is
encouraging people to endure in their faith despite persecution, as opposed to giving up their faith when hard times come.
Those who give up their faith, of course, will not "be saved"



Someone with an OSAS mindset will probably undoubtedly disagree with this, but overall, speaking for myself, I pretty much agree with your conclusions in this post.

Firefighter
Jun 23rd 2009, 04:01 PM
Agreed. The context of Matthew 10:22 is speaking of tribulation saints... assuming you buy into the pretrib/ dipsy line of thought.;)

-SEEKING-
Jun 23rd 2009, 04:29 PM
You're first 3 points. It isn't until we "die" that we "need" to be saved. Or rather, it's at that point when "shall be saved" becomes a reality. Not sure if you understand what I mean.

The last 3. I guess you can also see it as a promise. That if you keep your faith "until the end" you will be rewarded. I know it's a tough one. One can also say that it's a warning. Honestly this is one subject that I see great arguments either side. I just thank God and trust God that He will do with me what He says in His precious word.

RogerW
Jun 23rd 2009, 04:36 PM
Those who give up their faith, of course, will not "be saved". But those who endure in their faith, despite persecution, "shall be saved", and they will receive the salvation Christ promised to them.

Greetings Markedward,

I agree, and now find myself wondering who would give up faith unto salvation? Is this possible since we are being kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation?

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2009, 05:38 PM
The initiation of salvation came by Christ's work on the cross, in which his followers' sins are covered by the blood of his sacrifice, and receive the promise of eternal life.

The consummation of salvation comes by Christ's coming, in which he issues judgment and rewards his followers with the eternal life he promised to them.

Luke 21.27-28: And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.

Christ plainly associated the "redemption" of his followers with his coming.

Romans 8.23: And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Paul places "the redemption of our bodies" as something not yet obtained.

Hebrews 9.28: ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The author of Hebrews clearly says that Christ will "save those who are eagerly waiting for him" at his coming.

1 Peter 1.5: ... who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter plainly states that "salvation" was "ready to be revealed in the last time", referring to the "end of the age" that Jesus spoke about. Hence, people are to "endure to the end". The context of the statement is about persecution; Jesus is encouraging people to endure in their faith despite persecution, as opposed to giving up their faith when hard times come. Those who give up their faith, of course, will not "be saved". But those who endure in their faith, despite persecution, "shall be saved", and they will receive the salvation Christ promised to them.

Thanks Markedward,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2009, 05:42 PM
Someone with an OSAS mindset will probably undoubtedly disagree with this, but overall, speaking for myself, I pretty much agree with your conclusions in this post.

If we could say that we are already saved would that not mean that we would not have to endure until the end when Jesus returns according to that which is written?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2009, 05:45 PM
Agreed. The context of Matthew 10:22 is speaking of tribulation saints... assuming you buy into the pretrib/ dipsy line of thought.;)

Even so, if they are already saved Jesus would not have said they needed to endure to the end to be saved.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2009, 05:47 PM
You're first 3 points. It isn't until we "die" that we "need" to be saved. Or rather, it's at that point when "shall be saved" becomes a reality. Not sure if you understand what I mean.

The last 3. I guess you can also see it as a promise. That if you keep your faith "until the end" you will be rewarded. I know it's a tough one. One can also say that it's a warning. Honestly this is one subject that I see great arguments either side. I just thank God and trust God that He will do with me what He says in His precious word.

Thanks Seeking,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2009, 05:52 PM
Greetings Markedward,

I agree, and now find myself wondering who would give up faith unto salvation? Is this possible since we are being kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation?

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Many Blessings,
RW

We know that God is faithful, however we are not always so. God does not force faith upon us, he does not make us believe. Hence the need for us to endure to the end.

Heb 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Rev 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firefighter
Jun 23rd 2009, 05:56 PM
Even so, if they are already saved Jesus would not have said they needed to endure to the end to be saved.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

According to Pretrib/Dispy thought, their salvation is reliant upon enduring until the end of the tribulation.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2009, 06:19 PM
According to Pretrib/Dispy thought, their salvation is reliant upon enduring until the end of the tribulation.

According to the following we would have to disagree that we receive our salvation when we get to Heaven.

1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Cor 9:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Reserved in heaven for you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

My heart's Desire
Jun 23rd 2009, 06:32 PM
Hebrews 9.28: ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The author of Hebrews clearly says that Christ will "save those who are eagerly waiting for him" at his coming.

That's why I love this verse so much. Obviously it is those who know their sin was already dealt with at the Cross who will be eagerly waiting for Him at His coming. They know that they are saved and have no fear that Christ will reject them for any reason when He comes so they eagerly wait for Him.

Firstfruits
Jun 23rd 2009, 06:43 PM
That's why I love this verse so much. Obviously it is those who know their sin was already dealt with at the Cross who will be eagerly waiting for Him at His coming. They know that they are saved and have no fear that Christ will reject them for any reason when He comes so they eagerly wait for Him.

The scripture says that he will save those that wait for him at his return:

Hebrews 9.28: ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

If we endure until he returns we know that we have no need to fear.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

My heart's Desire
Jun 23rd 2009, 07:19 PM
The scripture says that he will save those that wait for him at his return:

Hebrews 9.28: ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


God bless you!

Firstfruits
Doesn't matter. Saved means safe, rescued and deliverance as well. Of course He will save those who already are saved. I'm aware that people have different reasons they want Christ to delay His coming but it really concerns me when people say they are afraid of His coming and some do say that. Could it be they are unsure of their position with Christ that they fear His appearing? Wouldn't that be the same reason they also fear death?
They certainly would not be eagerly awaiting Him.
This is why I cherish so much Heb. 2:13-15
And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

My heart's Desire
Jun 23rd 2009, 07:25 PM
Hebrews 9.28: ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

If we endure until he returns we know that we have no need to fear.

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Where do you see the word "endure" in this verse?

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 23rd 2009, 07:26 PM
That's why I love this verse so much. Obviously it is those who know their sin was already dealt with at the Cross who will be eagerly waiting for Him at His coming. They know that they are saved and have no fear that Christ will reject them for any reason when He comes so they eagerly wait for Him.


and those who are His... will not be Ashamed at His Coming... that's why He tells us to be sober and vigilant... to be 'found in Him'..... put on the bowels of the mercies of Christ.. be patient.. for the coming of the Lord Draweth Nigh...

and He is ABLE.. to 'keep you.'... putting the focus of enduring to the end on God.. you get your strength, wisdom and power FROM HIM.. God is able to Keep you.. it's not you nor I 'keeping' ourselves...out of our own works of Righteousness.or our own power.. always doubting and biting our teeth.. worried if we've lost our salvation or maybe God Has abandoned me....... . It's Him.... its not how much you can do.. or how well you do it... He is able to 'keep' you to the end.. You draw strength from Him.. He is able and WILL help you endure... to the End... for it is His Will from the Beginning.. that ye should endure..to the End..

the Elect of God will endure.. and its because He is Able... and the Elect of God.. 'know' they have been elected and chosen by God Himself...

satan's target has always been the Elect.. he despises them.. he hates them with a passion.. because they Trust and Believe on what Jesus the Christ Completed at Calvary with Perfection.. they are 100% totally dependant on God in everything in their lives...

Savlation from the start to finish.. belongs to God.. not man..

Sirus
Jun 23rd 2009, 11:28 PM
Greetings Markedward,

I agree, and now find myself wondering who would give up faith unto salvation? Is this possible since we are being kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation?

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Many Blessings,
RWwell it says 'through' faith. If they give up the faith they won't be kept by the power of God.

divaD
Jun 23rd 2009, 11:35 PM
well it says 'through' faith. If they give up the faith they won't be kept by the power of God.



That is exactly the way I read it also. It specifically states thru the faith of the one believing. Take that faith away, the power of God would be of no affect.

Partaker of Christ
Jun 24th 2009, 12:05 AM
well it says 'through' faith. If they give up the faith they won't be kept by the power of God.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

In Matthew it says, the good ground is those who heard the word and understood it. They are the ones who WILL keep it, and bare fruit with patience.

RogerW
Jun 24th 2009, 12:26 AM
well it says 'through' faith. If they give up the faith they won't be kept by the power of God.

Hi Sirus,

But is it wise to separate this faith from grace that saves? Grace and faith are part and parcel of the same package, we cannot have one without the other. Many think and even state we are saved by faith, and often even think that salvation is by faith through grace. Now its true we must have both grace and faith, but is it true that we are saved by faith through grace? That places the burden of salvation upon the faith of fallen man. It says show God your faith and He'll extend to you His grace. Not quite!

We are saved by grace 'through' faith that is not our own but part and parcel of the gift of God's grace, not of works lest any man should boast. Since the faith we receive unto salvation is part of the whole package, extending from God's grace, and being kept by the power of God...how can anyone receiving this gift of faith give it up?

Many blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jun 24th 2009, 12:30 AM
That is exactly the way I read it also. It specifically states thru the faith of the one believing. Take that faith away, the power of God would be of no affect.

Hi David,

This is true if the faith we are relying on is not unto salvation. In other words faith that can and often does fade away is believing Who Christ is without acknowledging Him as our Saviour; i.e. no heart change.

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Jun 24th 2009, 12:40 AM
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

In Matthew it says, the good ground is those who heard the word and understood it. They are the ones who WILL keep it, and bare fruit with patience.



I agree...and the following is my own little interpretation of how I understand this.



Luke 8:4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

In every case, it was the individual that caused the circumstance, The following is the explanation of verse 5, according to Jesus.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

As one can clearly see, the individual, after hearing, allowed the devil to come and take away the word out of their hearts, not they should believe and be saved. This group was never saved, because even tho they heard, they never believed.


Luke 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

This group was clearly saved, because it states they believed for awhile, but in the time of temptation, they fell away. Can't fall away from something one never had in the first place.


Luke 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.


These are also saved, but in my opin these will be the ones like some of our modern day preachers and teachers, who make a sizable income off of the sheep. And since they bring no fruit to perfection, they will be severed from the vine, who's end is to be burned.


No need to mention the last group, these are saved and keep their salvation. Why?

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

As one should clearly be able to see, it is the individual himself that causes his own outcome.
IOW, all of those not on the good ground, could just as easily have been on the good ground as those on the good ground. They only have themselves to blame.

Firefighter
Jun 24th 2009, 12:40 AM
how can anyone receiving this gift of faith give it up?


What if they wanted to??? What if something happens so tragic that they curse God and want nothing else to do with Him? Does God then force them against their will?

How about those that God doesn't choose to save? Does God not extend to them the grace and faith needed?

How about those that God does extend grace and faith to, are they unable to reject this gift?

RogerW
Jun 24th 2009, 01:51 AM
What if they wanted to??? What if something happens so tragic that they curse God and want nothing else to do with Him? Does God then force them against their will?

Greetings Urban Missionary,

How could this happen to the one who has been saved by grace since Scripture promises "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Ro 8:28)? God does not force His will upon any man. He changes our will by giving us a new heart and His Spirit. So if someone who appears to have been born again turns away from God, I would have to conclude they had never truly been born again of the Spirit. Remember Scripture tells us that not every one who says to Him Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt 7:21).

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 11:21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



How about those that God doesn't choose to save? Does God not extend to them the grace and faith needed?

This is looking at predestination and election from a negative perspective. God didn't have to choose to save any man. None of us are deserving of God's mercy and grace. If God had not chosen to intervene in the hearts of some men, then no man would be saved. If no man would be saved then the whole creation for which God so loves would cease to exist. Man would finally altogether destroy everything that God created. Therefore God has determined in eternity, before creation to save a people for Himself. In this the world and all that He created will be preserved forever. No, God has chosen not to extend grace and faith to every man, but we have no right to question God about whom He chooses to show mercy and grace. He is the Potter, we the clay, He will have mercy and compassion on whosoever He wills.



How about those that God does extend grace and faith to, are they unable to reject this gift?

This is not the way of salvation. Eternal life is not a free gift offered to be accepted or rejected. Eternal life is a free gift GIVEN to all who are given the gift of faith to believe. Since salvation beginning with regeneration, then sanctification and finally glorification is all the work of God through us, it is impossible for any to reject the gift of life GIVEN by God. What He begins He will complete until the final day.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 07:44 AM
Doesn't matter. Saved means safe, rescued and deliverance as well. Of course He will save those who already are saved. I'm aware that people have different reasons they want Christ to delay His coming but it really concerns me when people say they are afraid of His coming and some do say that. Could it be they are unsure of their position with Christ that they fear His appearing? Wouldn't that be the same reason they also fear death?
They certainly would not be eagerly awaiting Him.
This is why I cherish so much Heb. 2:13-15
And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

If we are already safe why would he need to save us, and from what?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 07:47 AM
Where do you see the word "endure" in this verse?

While we are waiting for the Lord to return are we not enduring persecutions and temptations?

Do we not need to endure untill the end?

God bless!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 07:49 AM
well it says 'through' faith. If they give up the faith they won't be kept by the power of God.

Thanks Sirus,

Amen!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 07:52 AM
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

In Matthew it says, the good ground is those who heard the word and understood it. They are the ones who WILL keep it, and bare fruit with patience.

Does keeping the word mean that we never sin, never doubt, never falter?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 07:57 AM
Hi Sirus,

But is it wise to separate this faith from grace that saves? Grace and faith are part and parcel of the same package, we cannot have one without the other. Many think and even state we are saved by faith, and often even think that salvation is by faith through grace. Now its true we must have both grace and faith, but is it true that we are saved by faith through grace? That places the burden of salvation upon the faith of fallen man. It says show God your faith and He'll extend to you His grace. Not quite!

We are saved by grace 'through' faith that is not our own but part and parcel of the gift of God's grace, not of works lest any man should boast. Since the faith we receive unto salvation is part of the whole package, extending from God's grace, and being kept by the power of God...how can anyone receiving this gift of faith give it up?

Many blessings,
RW

If you have no faith no matter how much grace God may give us it will mean nothing.

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If you have faith you can receive Gods grace, how can we receive what we do not believe?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 08:03 AM
Greetings Urban Missionary,

How could this happen to the one who has been saved by grace since Scripture promises "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Ro 8:28)? God does not force His will upon any man. He changes our will by giving us a new heart and His Spirit. So if someone who appears to have been born again turns away from God, I would have to conclude they had never truly been born again of the Spirit. Remember Scripture tells us that not every one who says to Him Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt 7:21).

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 11:21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



This is looking at predestination and election from a negative perspective. God didn't have to choose to save any man. None of us are deserving of God's mercy and grace. If God had not chosen to intervene in the hearts of some men, then no man would be saved. If no man would be saved then the whole creation for which God so loves would cease to exist. Man would finally altogether destroy everything that God created. Therefore God has determined in eternity, before creation to save a people for Himself. In this the world and all that He created will be preserved forever. No, God has chosen not to extend grace and faith to every man, but we have no right to question God about whom He chooses to show mercy and grace. He is the Potter, we the clay, He will have mercy and compassion on whosoever He wills.



This is not the way of salvation. Eternal life is not a free gift offered to be accepted or rejected. Eternal life is a free gift GIVEN to all who are given the gift of faith to believe. Since salvation beginning with regeneration, then sanctification and finally glorification is all the work of God through us, it is impossible for any to reject the gift of life GIVEN by God. What He begins He will complete until the final day.

Many Blessings,
RW

If faith is a gift then why does God not give it to all, so that we can all please him, or does God not want all men to please him?

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 24th 2009, 11:44 AM
With regards to the following scriptures if those that endure until the end are alraedy saved why then does Jesus say that they shall be saved or that they should endure to the end?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

With the understanding that the disciples belonged to Christ why did they say that they will be saved.

Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Why should we wait until the end?

Heb 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Rev 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Hi FF,

By context, each reference you chose to use deals with the end times [except Acts 15:11], specifically with the generation alive during the last days...

So if you start with Matthew 24:3 where the Disciples ask Jesus "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of (1) your coming, and (2) and of the end of the age?"

...and as you read through to verse 13, where Jesus continues with "...But the one who endures to the end [these times of great tribulation], he will be saved... [raptured]. And I say raptured because in verse 29 and forward, Jesus says "But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. AND THEN, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn [because they know the wrath of God is before them], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great Trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other [The Rapture]

So most everywhere were you read 'enduing to the end', it is the the time and generation alive for when the last days begin and end, the 70th week.


Praise God!


For His glory...

RbG

divaD
Jun 24th 2009, 11:58 AM
By context, each reference you chose to use deals with the end times [except Acts 15:11], specifically with the generation
alive during the last days...



This is where I'm definately in agreement. I was going to post a reply on this very same thing...that the context was speaking about the end of time, right before Jesus returns. But after looking at Matt 10 a bit closer, it seems obvious that the context deals with the disciples and during their time period, yet at the same time, this ch seems to be talking about the same thing as Matt ch 24, where it seems obvious that the context is dealing with a time yet in the future. One thing is for certain, I can see why some might take a preterist approach to these passages.

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 12:42 PM
Hi FF,

By context, each reference you chose to use deals with the end times [except Acts 15:11], specifically with the generation alive during the last days...

So if you start with Matthew 24:3 where the Disciples ask Jesus "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of (1) your coming, and (2) and of the end of the age?"

...and as you read through to verse 13, where Jesus continues with "...But the one who endures to the end [these times of great tribulation], he will be saved... [raptured]. And I say raptured because in verse 29 and forward, Jesus says "But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. AND THEN, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn [because they know the wrath of God is before them], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great Trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other [The Rapture]

So most everywhere were you read 'enduing to the end', it is the the time and generation alive for when the last days begin and end, the 70th week.


Praise God!


For His glory...

RbG

The reason it deals with the end time is because Jesus does not return until the end.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 12:45 PM
This is where I'm definately in agreement. I was going to post a reply on this very same thing...that the context was speaking about the end of time, right before Jesus returns. But after looking at Matt 10 a bit closer, it seems obvious that the context deals with the disciples and during their time period, yet at the same time, this ch seems to be talking about the same thing as Matt ch 24, where it seems obvious that the context is dealing with a time yet in the future. One thing is for certain, I can see why some might take a preterist approach to these passages.

Jesus does not return until the end, which is why we have to keep the faith until the end.

Rev 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 24th 2009, 12:46 PM
This is where I'm definately in agreement. I was going to post a reply on this very same thing...that the context was speaking about the end of time, right before Jesus returns. But after looking at Matt 10 a bit closer, it seems obvious that the context deals with the disciples and during their time period, yet at the same time, this ch seems to be talking about the same thing as Matt ch 24, where it seems obvious that the context is dealing with a time yet in the future. One thing is for certain, I can see why some might take a preterist approach to these passages.

Prophetic scripture always hold to a near/far application... but it's the yet to come that brings the most Joy...

Come Lord Jesus, Come!

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 24th 2009, 12:46 PM
The reason it deals with the end time is because Jesus does not return until the end.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

That's right....

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 12:57 PM
Prophetic scripture always hold to a near/far application... but it's the yet to come that brings the most Joy...

Come Lord Jesus, Come!

It is the hope of his coming that we wait for.

Lk 21:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Rom 8:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 24th 2009, 02:15 PM
It is the hope of his coming that we wait for.

Lk 21:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Rom 8:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Those who are alive yes, but what if you die before He return... Does enduring to the end mean death or his return? :hmm:

Partaker of Christ
Jun 24th 2009, 02:31 PM
Does keeping the word mean that we never sin, never doubt, never falter?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

It seems you doubt Jesus' own words.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Do you agree with Jesus, and believe that those who are good ground, keep the word?

divaD
Jun 24th 2009, 02:33 PM
Here's the way my brainless mind reasons this enduring to the end. First of all, in this case, I believe the meaning meant to be understood is based upon the context. The context of Matt 24 shows that it's talking about enduring to the end, in the end of days prior to Christ's return.

To further try and clarify my point, let me try this example.

There are 2 people. They both get saved. One of them lives 60 more yrs
after being saved. The other one gets killed in a car accident the following day. Clearly, if enduring to the end means keeping the faith until your dying breath, then the one that was killed one day after being saved, this person had no problem enduring to the end whatsoever. At least not like the one who lived 60 more yrs.

This is one reason that I feel, as in the case of Matt 24, enduring to the end is specifically related to not falling away, especially when the great trib commences, and when it becomes impossible to buy or sell without the mark. Matt 24 doesn't specifically tell us all of this, but it doesn't have to, because we know from other Scriptures that these are some of the things that will occur right before Christ returns.

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 02:56 PM
Those who are alive yes, but what if you die before He return... Does enduring to the end mean death or his return? :hmm:

Yes that would be right, since we cannot be rewarded until his return.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 03:03 PM
It seems you doubt Jesus' own words.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Do you agree with Jesus, and believe that those who are good ground, keep the word?

I do not doubt the words of Christ however the problem is man and his ability not doubt and keep the word.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

divaD
Jun 24th 2009, 03:30 PM
It seems you doubt Jesus' own words.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Do you agree with Jesus, and believe that those who are good ground, keep the word?



Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it and bring forth fruit with patience.


I personally think it's impossible for those that qualify for Luke 8:15
to lose their salvation. Not once does Jesus ever imply that they can lose their salvation. To do so, everything about this person would have to change, both on the inside and out. The way I look at it, when you've made it to the good ground, you've got it made, because nowhere does that parable imply that those on the good ground can lose their place. I still don't believe in OSAS tho, except in the case of these in Luke 8:15. Confusing isn't it?

Firstfruits
Jun 24th 2009, 03:35 PM
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it and bring forth fruit with patience.


I personally think it's impossible for those that qualify for Luke 8:15
to lose their salvation. Not once does Jesus ever imply that they can lose their salvation. To do so, everything about this person would have to change, both on the inside and out. The way I look at it, when you've made it to the good ground, you've got it made, because nowhere does that parable imply that those on the good ground can lose their place. I still don't believe in OSAS tho, except in the case of these in Luke 8:15. Confusing isn't it?

Jesus said "And keep the word" have you ever trangressed or sinned since coming to Jesus.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Knowing that there are those that will not keep the word is not doubting the words of Christ. Not all will endure until the end.

Firstfruits

divaD
Jun 24th 2009, 03:40 PM
Jesus said "And keep the word" have you ever trangressed or sinned since coming to Jesus.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Knowing that there are those that will not keep the word is not doubting the words of Christ. Not all will endure until the end.

Firstfruits




But you're missing my point. Those on the good ground will keep the word. That's why they're on the good ground.

John146
Jun 24th 2009, 03:47 PM
Hi Sirus,

But is it wise to separate this faith from grace that saves? Grace and faith are part and parcel of the same package, we cannot have one without the other. Many think and even state we are saved by faith, and often even think that salvation is by faith through grace. Now its true we must have both grace and faith, but is it true that we are saved by faith through grace? That places the burden of salvation upon the faith of fallen man. It says show God your faith and He'll extend to you His grace. Not quite!

We are saved by grace 'through' faith that is not our own but part and parcel of the gift of God's grace, not of works lest any man should boast. Since the faith we receive unto salvation is part of the whole package, extending from God's grace, and being kept by the power of God...how can anyone receiving this gift of faith give it up?

Many blessings,
RWYou are introducing a concept that is never taught in scripture. God's grace was extended to the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2) so that whosoever believes in Christ shall not perish but have everlasting life. Grace has been extended (offered) to all so that all may have the opportunity to receive eternal life by way of putting one's faith and trust in Christ.

Romans 10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Does this passage teach that saving faith is just given to people? Absolutely not. One must willingly believe in their hearts that God raised Christ from the dead and confess that Jesus is Lord. You remove reponsibility from man. But scripture teaches that man is held responsible to repent and put their faith in Christ and to call upon the name of the Lord for salvation. If one refuses to do this, they will be condemned. If one is not even able to fulfill the requirements that scripture clearly describes for obtaining salvation then how can they be held responsible for not fulfilling them on the day of judgment? What will God say to them on that day? "I'm sorry that you're upset that I didn't give you any opportunity to be saved, but that's the way I planned it. Now off to the lake of fire you go, which is what My will was for you.".

If saving faith is just given to people, then Jesus' parable of Matthew 22:1-14 would make no sense. You say that salvation is not offered. Yet Jesus compares the preaching of the gospel to an invitation to a wedding. To invite is to offer. There are two options given to all people: accept the invitation or reject it. Accept Christ or reject Him. That is a choice that all people must make and that all people are capable of making.

John146
Jun 24th 2009, 04:09 PM
If faith is a gift then why does God not give it to all, so that we can all please him, or does God not want all men to please him?

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

FirstfruitsHe does want all to please Him because He wants all people to repent and to be saved.

1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

RogerW
Jun 24th 2009, 04:26 PM
You are introducing a concept that is never taught in scripture. God's grace was extended to the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2) so that whosoever believes in Christ shall not perish but have everlasting life. Grace has been extended (offered) to all so that all may have the opportunity to receive eternal life by way of putting one's faith and trust in Christ.

Romans 10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Does this passage teach that saving faith is just given to people? Absolutely not. One must willingly believe in their hearts that God raised Christ from the dead and confess that Jesus is Lord. You remove reponsibility from man. But scripture teaches that man is held responsible to repent and put their faith in Christ and to call upon the name of the Lord for salvation. If one refuses to do this, they will be condemned. If one is not even able to fulfill the requirements that scripture clearly describes for obtaining salvation then how can they be held responsible for not fulfilling them on the day of judgment? What will God say to them on that day? "I'm sorry that you're upset that I didn't give you any opportunity to be saved, but that's the way I planned it. Now off to the lake of fire you go, which is what My will was for you.".

If saving faith is just given to people, then Jesus' parable of Matthew 22:1-14 would make no sense. You say that salvation is not offered. Yet Jesus compares the preaching of the gospel to an invitation to a wedding. To invite is to offer. There are two options given to all people: accept the invitation or reject it. Accept Christ or reject Him. That is a choice that all people must make and that all people are capable of making.

Greetings Eric,

Here is a perfect example of one who teaches eternal life is by faith through grace; i.e. show God your faith then He will extend to you His grace. This concept is foreign to Scripture. Clearly we read "by grace ye are saved"... how? "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

What is the invitation extended unto all man? Repent and believe the gospel! What man dead in trespasses and sins, in bondage to sin and death will repent and believe the gospel before he/she has been regenerated by the power of the Word and Spirit? No man! Why? Because "There is none righteous, no, not one."

Yes, it is true whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved! "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?" They cannot! They must first "hear" because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The gospel is preached, men are invited to hear the Word, and all men everywhere are commanded to repent and believe. Those who hear by grace through faith believe, and repent...not all who hear will be given eternal life in Christ, because hearing is not mixed with faith, therefore they remain in unbelief.

This notion that eternal life is offered to be accepted or rejected is unbiblical and cannot be found in the Word of God. You will put this doctrine to rest when you realize we are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God's grace. God does not give only partial eternal life, no His grace encompasses faith unto salvation or no man will inherit life everlasting.

Many blessings,
RW

divaD
Jun 24th 2009, 04:56 PM
Here is a perfect example of one who teaches eternal life is by faith through grace; i.e. show God your faith then He will
extend to you His grace. This concept is foreign to Scripture. Clearly we read "by grace ye are saved"... how? "by grace are
ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."


RW, how can this not be true? What is it that pleases God? Faith. If faith is not important, then why doesn't the verse read such as this?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


This is what you are saying, isn't it? If not, then exactly what does it mean to be saved by grace through faith, if it doesn't mean..show me your faith, and I will extend you my grace?

My heart's Desire
Jun 24th 2009, 05:36 PM
Crime: Sinner, separated from God, Court: Guilty, Judged and condemned,deserving death, Christ: takes the place of the guilty and received the penality. Sinner: pardoned, clean record, set free.
I think we get hung up on if the sinner can be condemned on the same charge as being a sinner again and therefore judged again. If possible, wouldn't Christ have to take the place of the guilty still again after He has done it once by dying on the Cross? Christ died on the Cross once for all. He will not do it over and over again for the same person and the crime of being a sinner for the person has already been pardoned so people will either believe a person
A: loses that pardon when they commit the crime of sin
B:Commits the same crime of being a sinner (sinner being a position of a person without God in the world as opposed to one who sins) after Christ declares us a new creation who has been pardoned is righteous. Do we condemn a righteous Person whom God has already declared clean?
Can the one pardoned based on Christ taking his place, go back and say. "oh wait, I want to go ahead and be convicted for the crime after Christ has already died for that crime? Would a Court allow them to be convicted for the same crime that Christ already paid for? No, I don't think so. The court would say You are in right standing with us now for the price is paid. You cannot pay it again for it is no longer owed.
We are not condemned just because we sin, we are condemned to death because it was passed down to us as a condition, or a state of being. The penality of death was paid for all.

RogerW
Jun 24th 2009, 06:12 PM
RW, how can this not be true? What is it that pleases God? Faith. If faith is not important, then why doesn't the verse read such as this?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is what you are saying, isn't it? If not, then exactly what does it mean to be saved by grace through faith, if it doesn't mean..show me your faith, and I will extend you my grace?

That's an excellent question David. I never said that faith is not important. If faith were not necessary Scripture would not tell us "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Why do we need faith since salvation is by grace?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

"When we were dead in sins"...what does that mean? Paul is not speaking to a corpse, so being dead in sins means we are without faith because we have not yet heard the Word of God which is how we receive faith. Since we are spiritually dead how can we hear and have faith before we are made alive?

In regeneration (new birth) a sinner (spiritually dead) is made alive in Christ. We are given a new nature, a new heart and become a new creature. Christ is that life, for He is the Author, the cause and the source of life.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This life is a gift of His grace. This is a spiritual resurrection from death (in sin and separation from God) unto spiritual life (a living union with God in Christ). Christ has already entered into heaven, and we are loved, forgiven, accepted and made one with God in Him. This life is a free gift GIVEN, not OFFERED to be accepted or rejected.

How is this work of grace unto eternal life accomplished in the heart of God's elect? Through faith that is not of ourselves, but the gift of God. It is not a faith that comes from within us, it is "the" faith OF Christ that is the way, means, or instrument by which we receive and enjoy salvation. Faith unto salvation is not the product of man, but the gift of God. When we receive salvation by grace through faith we give all the glory to God. Any works of righteousenss (which faith certainly is) done by us are not ours, but are by the grace of God. If faith unto salvation is our work, why would Paul say, "not of works, lest any man should boast"?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I don't want to give the impression that works of faith and a holy life are not necessary after regeneration. Paul adds, "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The Spirit that now lives in us is the Spirit of love, joy, FAITH, humility and truth. Our calling is a "holy calling". Our Father is a "merciful and holy Father". Our walk is with Him (Ph 1:9-11; 1Ti 6:11-12).

To have the faith OF Christ is to have complete reliance upon Christ for salvation unto eternal life. The work of faith and labor of love we do after regeneration proceed from "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." We need to be very careful when we begin to think we are saved or we stand by our own faith. This is often when we fall. It is God Who is faithful (1Co 10:13), He will not let His elect utterly fall that there is no escape. Christ begins this good work in us, and He will perform it unto the end (Ph 1:6).

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Why do we need faith since salvation is by grace? Because without His gift of His faith we remain dead in our sins.

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Jun 24th 2009, 07:46 PM
That's an excellent question David. I never said that faith is not important. If faith were not necessary Scripture would not tell us "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Why do we need faith since salvation is by grace?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

"When we were dead in sins"...what does that mean? Paul is not speaking to a corpse, so being dead in sins means we are without faith because we have not yet heard the Word of God which is how we receive faith. Since we are spiritually dead how can we hear and have faith before we are made alive?

In regeneration (new birth) a sinner (spiritually dead) is made alive in Christ. We are given a new nature, a new heart and become a new creature. Christ is that life, for He is the Author, the cause and the source of life.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This life is a gift of His grace. This is a spiritual resurrection from death (in sin and separation from God) unto spiritual life (a living union with God in Christ). Christ has already entered into heaven, and we are loved, forgiven, accepted and made one with God in Him. This life is a free gift GIVEN, not OFFERED to be accepted or rejected.

How is this work of grace unto eternal life accomplished in the heart of God's elect? Through faith that is not of ourselves, but the gift of God. It is not a faith that comes from within us, it is "the" faith OF Christ that is the way, means, or instrument by which we receive and enjoy salvation. Faith unto salvation is not the product of man, but the gift of God. When we receive salvation by grace through faith we give all the glory to God. Any works of righteousenss (which faith certainly is) done by us are not ours, but are by the grace of God. If faith unto salvation is our work, why would Paul say, "not of works, lest any man should boast"?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I don't want to give the impression that works of faith and a holy life are not necessary after regeneration. Paul adds, "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The Spirit that now lives in us is the Spirit of love, joy, FAITH, humility and truth. Our calling is a "holy calling". Our Father is a "merciful and holy Father". Our walk is with Him (Ph 1:9-11; 1Ti 6:11-12).

To have the faith OF Christ is to have complete reliance upon Christ for salvation unto eternal life. The work of faith and labor of love we do after regeneration proceed from "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." We need to be very careful when we begin to think we are saved or we stand by our own faith. This is often when we fall. It is God Who is faithful (1Co 10:13), He will not let His elect utterly fall that there is no escape. Christ begins this good work in us, and He will perform it unto the end (Ph 1:6).

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Why do we need faith since salvation is by grace? Because without His gift of His faith we remain dead in our sins.

Many Blessings,
RW



Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.


Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Roger, this is something that has puzzled me for the longest. In each of these verses, their contexts aside for a moment, they speak about the faith of Christ, and not the faith in Christ nor the faith on Christ, but the faith of Christ. What exactly does this mean?



Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


Here we see that this faith of is used again, and this time it's in relation to Abraham. One wouldn't assume that this isn't Abraham's faith being spoken of, right? So why would one assume that it's not Christ's faith that is the focus? So, what exactly is the faith of Christ?

Partaker of Christ
Jun 24th 2009, 08:40 PM
I do not doubt the words of Christ however the problem is man and his ability not doubt and keep the word.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Jesus said they [of the good ground] would hear the word and keep it.

There is no if's or but's.

John146
Jun 24th 2009, 09:05 PM
Greetings Eric,

Here is a perfect example of one who teaches eternal life is by faith through grace; i.e. show God your faith then He will extend to you His grace.That's not what I'm saying at all. He offers grace and man is responsible to respond with faith. Grace through faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).


This concept is foreign to Scripture. Clearly we read "by grace ye are saved"... how? "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." It's salvation that is not of ourselves, not faith. Salvation is by grace. Salvation is through faith in Christ. Salvation is not of ourselves. The fact that faith in Christ is a condition for salvation is taught throughout the New Testament.


What is the invitation extended unto all man? Repent and believe the gospel! What man dead in trespasses and sins, in bondage to sin and death will repent and believe the gospel before he/she has been regenerated by the power of the Word and Spirit? No man! Why? Because "There is none righteous, no, not one." Not being righteous and not having the ability to repent and believe are two entirely different things. Show me the scripture that says not being good or righteous means you are not capable of repenting and believing without first being regenerated? Christ came to call unregenerated sinners to repentance.


Yes, it is true whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved! "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?" They cannot! They must first "hear" because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The gospel is preached, men are invited to hear the Word, and all men everywhere are commanded to repent and believe. Those who hear by grace through faith believe, and repent...not all who hear will be given eternal life in Christ, because hearing is not mixed with faith, therefore they remain in unbelief. Yes, that's right. Because of their decision to not believe after they hear the word, they are condemned rather than given eternal life.


This notion that eternal life is offered to be accepted or rejected is unbiblical and cannot be found in the Word of God.It's found throughout. The parable of Matthew 22:1-14 is only one example. You have yet to do anything to refute it. It is described there as an invitation. It describes people rejecting it because "they would not" (Matt 22:3) accept it and not because they could not accept it.

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


You will put this doctrine to rest when you realize we are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God's grace.I will never realize that because it isn't true. We are responsible to believe. Abraham believed and his faith was counted to him for righteousness.

Rom 4
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John146
Jun 24th 2009, 09:28 PM
Any works of righteousenss (which faith certainly is) done by us are not ours, but are by the grace of God. If faith unto salvation is our work, why would Paul say, "not of works, lest any man should boast"? Faith is not a work of righteousness in the context that Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 2. James differentiated between the two. The two go hand in hand but they are still not the same.

James 2
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Works of righteousness are things that reflect the faith that we have. Faith without works of righteousness is dead. Notice verse 26. The body and the spirit are obviously not the same. We wouldn't try to say the body is a spirit. Likewise, faith and works of righteousness are not the same. Faith is not a work of righteousness.

Partaker of Christ
Jun 24th 2009, 09:31 PM
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it and bring forth fruit with patience.


I personally think it's impossible for those that qualify for Luke 8:15
to lose their salvation. Not once does Jesus ever imply that they can lose their salvation. To do so, everything about this person would have to change, both on the inside and out. The way I look at it, when you've made it to the good ground, you've got it made, because nowhere does that parable imply that those on the good ground can lose their place. I still don't believe in OSAS tho, except in the case of these in Luke 8:15. Confusing isn't it?

Hi DivaD!

I agree with you as for Luke 8:15!!

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luke 8:12; I think we can safely say have no salvation.

The other two I am not sure. I know my Heavenly Father is the gardener, and He will dig around the ground. I believe that when I first received the word, I was something of a mix of both these two.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I firmly believe that the word we receive has life, and that being the life of Christ. So I ask myself, can that life die or be killed?

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:13; They have no root. I take that to (perhaps) mean, that they have not believed with their heart.

Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Luke 8:14; Seems to have believed with the heart, and brought forth fruit but not to perfection.

Does this mean that the life they recieved has died, or perhaps that they just have not been fruitful?
They have not rejected Christ, but they have not fully understood the word they recieved.

Firstfruits
Jun 25th 2009, 06:40 AM
But you're missing my point. Those on the good ground will keep the word. That's why they're on the good ground.

What does it mean to be on good ground, with the understanding that we are all unrighteous until we come to Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 25th 2009, 06:45 AM
Jesus said they [of the good ground] would hear the word and keep it.

There is no if's or but's.

Before we hear the word we are all unrighteous, we are no different to each other before God. So is it the word that changes us?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 25th 2009, 11:19 AM
Before we hear the word we are all unrighteous, we are no different to each other before God. So is it the word that changes us?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi Ff,

Does the field dress itself to accept the seed, or is that the work of the owner of the land?

Firstfruits
Jun 25th 2009, 11:34 AM
Hi Ff,

Does the field dress itself to accept the seed, or is that the work of the owner of the land?

Would we therefore be blaming God for our unbelief of the word or do we have that responsibility to believe or not believe the word?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 25th 2009, 12:17 PM
Would we therefore be blaming God for our unbelief of the word or do we have that responsibility to believe or not believe the word?

Firstfruits

No man is righteous. No man seeks after God. All men are dead in sin; all men deserve death and eternal punishment.

Yet God in his infinite wisdom, has chosen for Himself a people to show His grace and mercy on, and blesses them, through His grace in faith of Jesus Christ

So a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, and God alone, lest any man should boast.

So your and my salvation is because in hearing the Gospel, He has prepared our heart in understanding, to the beginning time we now look back to and say He changed our heart in the day we recognized Christ as Lord and Savior of our life and His redeemption work for our sins before God... and thus we repented and believed.... We look back and say 'why then and not before', and through the Word of God today we learn that God's timing drives and not ours... yet some say it was their work and not God's work within them.

Firstfruits
Jun 25th 2009, 03:12 PM
No man is righteous. No man seeks after God. All men are dead in sin; all men deserve death and eternal punishment.

Yet God in his infinite wisdom, has chosen for Himself a people to show His grace and mercy on, and blesses them, through His grace in faith of Jesus Christ

So a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, and God alone, lest any man should boast.

So your and my salvation is because in hearing the Gospel, He has prepared our heart in understanding, to the beginning time we now look back to and say He changed our heart in the day we recognized Christ as Lord and Savior of our life and His redeemption work for our sins before God... and thus we repented and believed.... We look back and say 'why then and not before', and through the Word of God today we learn that God's timing drives and not ours... yet some say it was their work and not God's work within them.

So it is God that makes us believe, what then of those that God makes believe and then they no longer believe, has God taken away their belief?

Is it possible to resist Gods will?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 25th 2009, 04:23 PM
So it is God that makes us believe,

You bet Amen! For God.... nudges all that will believe to hear, understand and respond. The faith He gives is of Himself within us! Praise God! There are those who will believe but do so on their own accord, and without Christ inside them... so they walk a temporal walk.



what then of those that God makes believe and then they no longer believe, has God taken away their belief?

No such catagory... There is either divine faith or temporal faith, for even the demons believe, yet they tremble



Is it possible to resist Gods will?

Firstfruits

God's will will be done. SO you meant it one way in support of one walking away from faith, but actually it's deeper than what you meant!

John146
Jun 25th 2009, 04:35 PM
No man is righteous. No man seeks after God. All men are dead in sin; all men deserve death and eternal punishment.

Yet God in his infinite wisdom, has chosen for Himself a people to show His grace and mercy on, and blesses them, through His grace in faith of Jesus ChristSo, God does not show His grace and mercy on all people? He doesn't really desire all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4)? He's just kidding when He says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but wants them to repent before they die (Eze 18:23, 33:11)?

John146
Jun 25th 2009, 04:38 PM
You bet Amen! For God.... nudges all that will believe to hear, understand and respond.Don't you mean He forces them to hear, understand and respond "nudges? Is it possible, in your view, for the ones who He wants to "hear, understand and respond" to not "hear, understand and respond"?

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 25th 2009, 05:08 PM
So, God does not show His grace and mercy on all people?

False. He show His grace on all, but saving Grace on the Elect.


He doesn't really desire all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4)?

False... God's desire is for all to repent and believe.... But no one does.


He's just kidding when He says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but wants them to repent before they die (Eze 18:23, 33:11)?


False.

You miss the point by your questions asked.... Salvation's message is open to all, but no one comes by their own terms. There is nothing a man can offer God the justifies himself before God... even his own faith, that's why it's God's faith within a man that is right before God. True Christians are His vessels of His mercy and grace.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 25th 2009, 05:18 PM
Don't you mean He forces them to hear, understand and respond "nudges? Is it possible, in your view, for the ones who He wants to "hear, understand and respond" to not "hear, understand and respond"?

Why will you still not believe that God works in hearts, and yet still allows you to think, plan and do? Where does it say that God doesn't work within a man to do His will, that it's left up to man to seek, find and respond as his one idea?


Do you not think that the steps you walk in now and tomorrow are not under the sovereign control and watch of the Almighty God? Can you not look back and see how God has changed hearts and minds of folks around you and blessed you because of that?


So yes, all who want to seek to find God will, for that desire is birthed by God, for His glory and will.

Firstfruits
Jun 25th 2009, 09:07 PM
You bet Amen! For God.... nudges all that will believe to hear, understand and respond. The faith He gives is of Himself within us! Praise God! There are those who will believe but do so on their own accord, and without Christ inside them... so they walk a temporal walk.




No such catagory... There is either divine faith or temporal faith, for even the demons believe, yet they tremble



God's will will be done. SO you meant it one way in support of one walking away from faith, but actually it's deeper than what you meant!

With what you have said, does this not mean that God does not want all men to be saved, otherwise he would cause all men to believe since his will will be done?

Firstfruits

John146
Jun 25th 2009, 09:17 PM
False. He show His grace on all, but saving Grace on the Elect.He graciously offers salvation to all. That was my point.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


False... God's desire is for all to repent and believe.... But no one does.Sure they do. I did. Everyone who is saved has repented and believed because those are the requirements for salvation.

2 Cor 7
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


False.

You miss the point by your questions asked.... Salvation's message is open to all, but no one comes by their own terms. There is nothing a man can offer God the justifies himself before God... even his own faith, that's why it's God's faith within a man that is right before God. True Christians are His vessels of His mercy and grace.Abraham believed God and his (Abraham's) faith was counted for righteousness (Gen 15:6). Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). I'm afraid you are the one missing the point.

John146
Jun 25th 2009, 09:32 PM
Why will you still not believe that God works in hearts, and yet still allows you to think, plan and do? Where does it say that God doesn't work within a man to do His will, that it's left up to man to seek, find and respond as his one idea?Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Man must seek God while He may be found and call upon Him while He is near. He can't wait forever to make a decision to follow Christ because tomorrow it may be too late.


Do you not think that the steps you walk in now and tomorrow are not under the sovereign control and watch of the Almighty God? Can you not look back and see how God has changed hearts and minds of folks around you and blessed you because of that? I'm not a puppet and God is not a puppet master. He requires us to willingly deny ourselves and surrender to Him.


So yes, all who want to seek to find God will, for that desire is birthed by God, for His glory and will.The God of the Bible desires all to repent and to be saved and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and wants them to repent before they die. The God of the Bible did not just randomly choose to save some and leave the rest in their sins. Christ came to call sinners to repentance. All sinners. If one does not repent and believe it isn't because they can not, but because they will not (Matt 22:3, Matt 23:37-38).

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 25th 2009, 11:08 PM
Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Man must seek God while He may be found and call upon Him while He is near. He can't wait forever to make a decision to follow Christ because tomorrow it may be too late.

Absolutely! The invitation is wide open! But again... no one comes to God on his own wisdom.




I'm not a puppet and God is not a puppet master. He requires us to willingly deny ourselves and surrender to Him.

Ahhh but you are quick to call it being a puppet, but fail to give God due that He called Mary to be Jesus' mother, Abraham to be the father of a nation, the 12 to be disciples, and 1 to betray Him, and example over example over example. For the bible is replete of examples in how God reaches out to man because man does not seek after God.




The God of the Bible desires all to repent and to be saved and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and wants them to repent before they die.


Again stating I agree.



The God of the Bible did not just randomly choose to save some and leave the rest in their sins.

There is no randomness to God... He purposed, He planned, He predestined, He foreknew, each and everything. He turned back the hours of time, why cannot He plan purpose in each life?




Christ came to call sinners to repentance. All sinners. If one does not repent and believe it isn't because they can not, but because they will not (Matt 22:3, Matt 23:37-38).


The point is still lost, all men are sinful; all men do not desire God and as the invite is open to all, as God's desire is that all should repent and believe. BUT... not one does.... no one except by the grace of God who works in hearts to see hear and respond to the Gospel.

Sirus
Jun 26th 2009, 12:20 AM
But is it wise to separate this faith from grace that saves? Grace and faith are part and parcel of the same package, we cannot have one without the other.I didn't. We have faith throughout life without God's grace. It's just not placed in him.



Many think and even state we are saved by faith, and often even think that salvation is by faith through grace. Now its true we must have both grace and faith, but is it true that we are saved by faith through grace? That places the burden of salvation upon the faith of fallen man. It says show God your faith and He'll extend to you His grace. Not quite!Well, man, created in the image of God, to have a relationship with God, that is not far from God, is not 'fallen' in the popular sense, IMO.

Both are true....
1) Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2) Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
1) the grace had to appear so the gospel could be preached and received through the means of faith.
2) to stay in his grace is by the means of the same faith.


We are saved by grace 'through' faith that is not our own but part and parcel of the gift of God's grace, not of works lest any man should boast. Since the faith we receive unto salvation is part of the whole package, extending from God's grace, and being kept by the power of God...how can anyone receiving this gift of faith give it up?Faith is not a work.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The gift is salvation which requires grace. The gift is received through a means, so the means here is not the gift. Faith is not a thing that is received in order to believe. Every man is born with the abiblity to have faith in his creator. To say otherwise places the damnation of the unbelieving on God, which would make him unjust, and we know that's not correct.

Question: what is his grace?
...and don't say unmerited favor

blessedmommyuv3
Jun 26th 2009, 12:37 AM
No man is righteous. No man seeks after God. All men are dead in sin; all men deserve death and eternal punishment.

Yet God in his infinite wisdom, has chosen for Himself a people to show His grace and mercy on, and blesses them, through His grace in faith of Jesus Christ

So a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, and God alone, lest any man should boast.

So your and my salvation is because in hearing the Gospel, He has prepared our heart in understanding, to the beginning time we now look back to and say He changed our heart in the day we recognized Christ as Lord and Savior of our life and His redeemption work for our sins before God... and thus we repented and believed.... We look back and say 'why then and not before', and through the Word of God today we learn that God's timing drives and not ours... yet some say it was their work and not God's work within them.

Amen... amen... and amen :D

RogerW
Jun 26th 2009, 12:38 AM
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Roger, this is something that has puzzled me for the longest. In each of these verses, their contexts aside for a moment, they speak about the faith of Christ, and not the faith in Christ nor the faith on Christ, but the faith of Christ. What exactly does this mean?

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Here we see that this faith of is used again, and this time it's in relation to Abraham. One wouldn't assume that this isn't Abraham's faith being spoken of, right? So why would one assume that it's not Christ's faith that is the focus? So, what exactly is the faith of Christ?

Hi David,

One of the most common errors in the Church today concerning 'the doctrine of Grace' is Christians attempting to make faith an action on our part, rather than accepting that the faith we have is by the sovereign will and action of God. How many times we hear we must have faith 'in' Christ rather than faith 'of' Christ.

We all agree that faith is necessary for salvation, but it is error to conclude that this requirement is our work, or that it is achieved by any effort on our part. How can we say that the faith to believe is our faith (not the faith of Christ), and yet profess that it is not an effort or work on our part? If it is by our faith, its by our effort, and it is our work. We are commanded by God to have faith. And so how then is it not a work, when we are told that it is something which must be done?

Christ speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees says, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Mt 23:23).

He is telling them that faith is a work they should have done, but didn't do. If faith is not by this work of men, then it is by the work of Christ, a gift of God.

I 1Ti 6:12 we are told, "fight the good fight of faith". How are we to fight the good fight of faith and it not be an effort or a work? The idea of faith not being a work is foreign to Scripture, for faith is the result of work, and thus requires work.


1Th 1:3Remembering without ceasing your Work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Since faith takes an effort or some power or energy to accomplish, is it our power or is it the power of God?

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the Work of faith with Power:

How can faith be a work with power and not be a work? True faith is having power to believe in God, not mere head knowledge that even the demons and devils have, but by the Holy Spirit. A Spirit by which we are persuaded that His Word is both true, and by which man lives. It is by this power that the faithfulness of Christ works in us to believe and to do what is expected. Faith unto salvation, since not inherent, must of necessity be the work of the Holy Spirit. And if it is our own faith, then everyone would have it.

Having faith unto salvation is without doubt a work, the work of God. Christ Himself calls faith to believe a work. The work of God.

Jo 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom he hath sent.

We are not Saved (in any way) by our own faith in Christ, but by Christ putting faith in us. There is a big difference between our being Saved by our own faith in Christ, and our being Saved by Christ's faith. In other words, the very 'character' of Saving faith is at stake. The faith of Christ indicates that Christ Himself is the originator and the 'source' of this faith in us. It illustrates His faithful work in persuading us, because He is the substance or essence of our belief. The term faith in Christ illustrates 'our own' faith in Him. It is no small difference. So when modern man translates this phrase as 'faith in Christ,' it becomes a issue of our being Saved because we did something, rather than by His faith living in us that makes us a new creation.

Without justification by the 'faith of Christ,' we inevitably fall into the deception of:
1) Faith unto salvation is by our own efforts
2) We deny the efficacy of Christ's work
3) We cannot know the REAL assurance of salvation
4) Denial of God's Word of authoring and finishing faith
5) Usurp the power of persuasion from God

How do we and Abraham receive faith unto salvation? Through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, but how did Abraham believe? God preached to him the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation. It is through hearing the Word that we and he believe.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What about those who hear the Word but remain in unbelief? They hear without the power of God, because the gospel does not profit us if it is not mixed with faith in them that hear it.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Jun 26th 2009, 01:07 AM
No man is righteous. No man seeks after God. All men are dead in sin; all men deserve death and eternal punishment.

Yet God in his infinite wisdom, has chosen for Himself a people to show His grace and mercy on, and blesses them, through His grace in faith of Jesus Christ

So a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, and God alone, lest any man should boast.

So your and my salvation is because in hearing the Gospel, He has prepared our heart in understanding, to the beginning time we now look back to and say He changed our heart in the day we recognized Christ as Lord and Savior of our life and His redeemption work for our sins before God... and thus we repented and believed.... We look back and say 'why then and not before', and through the Word of God today we learn that God's timing drives and not ours... yet some say it was their work and not God's work within them.This is what this means

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Drawn by the Son and His gospel. His flesh and blood. Those that believe on him is found throughout the chapter.



So it is God that makes us believe, what then of those that God makes believe and then they no longer believe, has God taken away their belief?

Is it possible to resist Gods will?

FirstfruitsNo, God does not make us believe.

'resist His will' refers to Christ coming in the flesh to be the Savior of the world.



You bet Amen! For God.... nudges all that will believe to hear, understand and respond. The faith He gives is of Himself within us! Praise God! There are those who will believe but do so on their own accord, and without Christ inside them... so they walk a temporal walk.No. Faith is not a thing given when the gospel is heard so that you can believe it.




No such catagory... There is either divine faith or temporal faith, for even the demons believe, yet they tremblefaith is faith, there is not more than one.

RogerW
Jun 26th 2009, 01:34 AM
I didn't. We have faith throughout life without God's grace. It's just not placed in him.

Greetings Sirus,

Even if we place OUR faith in Him, it would be of no value, certainly not worthy of salvation. For all of OUR righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.



Well, man, created in the image of God, to have a relationship with God, that is not far from God, is not 'fallen' in the popular sense, IMO.

What became of that image of God we were created in after the fall? If we retained the image of God, why must we be born again?

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:




Both are true....

1) Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2) Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
1) the grace had to appear so the gospel could be preached and received through the means of faith.
2) to stay in his grace is by the means of the same faith.

As you have said all men have faith, but faith without grace is of no value whatsoever. On the other hand what good is it if God should extend His grace without faith to believe? Salvation is the free gift GIVEN, not offered by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,



Faith is not a work.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

See my last post to David.


The gift is salvation which requires grace. The gift is received through a means, so the means here is not the gift. Faith is not a thing that is received in order to believe. Every man is born with the abiblity to have faith in his creator. To say otherwise places the damnation of the unbelieving on God, which would make him unjust, and we know that's not correct.

Question: what is his grace?
...and don't say unmerited favor

Man was created with the ability to have faith in his Creator...BUT, then came the fall of man. What happened to man after he willingly chose to disobey God? Why does Jesus say we need the truth to be made free (Jo 8:32)? What do we need to be made free from? Could it be the bondage to sin, the bondage to death, and the bondage to Satan we experience since the fall from grace?

Ga 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Ga 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

How do I define grace? A Divine influence upon the heart.

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Jun 26th 2009, 02:44 AM
Even if we place OUR faith in Him, it would be of no value, certainly not worthy of salvation. For all of OUR righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.You aren't seeing that our faith in him is not our righteousness but gives us his righteousness.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


What became of that image of God we were created in after the fall? If we retained the image of God, why must we be born again?

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:The image of His Son here is the Son of man that came, lived, died and rose a heavenly man. This cannot be the same image of the first natural corruptible man. It's the image of the second man and last Adam. If this is not the case what's this doing here?
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.


As you have said all men have faith, but faith without grace is of no value whatsoever. On the other hand what good is it if God should extend His grace without faith to believe? Salvation is the free gift GIVEN, not offered by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,Amen! The faith all men are created with, when put in Him as He intended, is not of our own but of Him that created us for our faith to be put in Him. It's His design and purpose, not ours.



Man was created with the ability to have faith in his Creator...BUT, then came the fall of man. What happened to man after he willingly chose to disobey God? Why does Jesus say we need the truth to be made free (Jo 8:32)? What do we need to be made free from? Could it be the bondage to sin, the bondage to death, and the bondage to Satan we experience since the fall from grace?What happened? Man was condemned to die.
Why did Jesus say the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? (before the cross)



How do I define grace? A Divine influence upon the heart.Just for initial salvation or Salvation?
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
In a nutshell, it is our life in Christ, Him crucified, and raised from the dead. It is everything Christ has placed in our account for us to reckon to be true by faith (link). (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2114976&postcount=56)

Firstfruits
Jun 26th 2009, 07:58 AM
Amen... amen... and amen :D

So would you say what Jesus said is not right concerning seeking God?

Mt 6:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Firstfruits

RogerW
Jun 26th 2009, 02:06 PM
You aren't seeing that our faith in him is not our righteousness but gives us his righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Whose faith is counted for righteousness? To him who is not working , yet is believing on Him [Christ] Who is justifying the ungodly, His [Christ] faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David is also saying, blessed is the man whom God imputed righteousness without deeds/works. Faith is work! If this verse tells us 'our' faith is counted for righteousness, how do we reconcile that with, "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"?


It is neither our faith nor our righteousness that justifies us before God. Salvation from regeneration, to sanctification and finally glorification is all of Christ and none of man; i.e. His working, His grace or divine influence upon our hearts and minds. Very clearly the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ is given, not offered, to all that believe. How do any believe the gospel before he/she is regenerated or born again by the power of the Word and Spirit? By grace which is the divine influence upon our hearts and minds, therefore by the faith [U]of Christ we are enabled to believe in Him.



The image of His Son here is the Son of man that came, lived, died and rose a heavenly man. This cannot be the same image of the first natural corruptible man.

The first man, though made in the image of God became corrupt and lost or defiled God's image in him. Having become corrupt and defiled man must be born again from uncorruptible Seed (Christ). He then is the man who is the image and glory of God, having been born again. Fallen man, without re-birth and becoming the image of the Son will never again be spoken of as the image and glory of God.



Amen! The faith all men are created with, when put in Him as He intended, is not of our own but of Him that created us for our faith to be put in Him. It's His design and purpose, not ours.

When I begin to think I have something of value to offer [my faith?] to be justified before God, then I am robbing God of His glory, and God will not share His glory with another.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.



What happened? Man was condemned to die.

Man also became a slave of unrighteousness. As a slave/servant to sin we have no ability to make ourselves righteous through our faith.



Why did Jesus say the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? (before the cross)

Only before the cross? Not also after the cross?



Just for initial salvation or Salvation?

If the Lord does not complete what He has begun in me, I am without hope because I am but human and cannot justify myself before God. I wholly rely on Christ working in me to both will and do of His good pleasure.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Jun 26th 2009, 09:40 PM
Hi David,

One of the most common errors in the Church today concerning 'the doctrine of Grace' is Christians attempting to make faith an action on our part, rather than accepting that the faith we have is by the sovereign will and action of God. How many times we hear we must have faith 'in' Christ rather than faith 'of' Christ.Hopefully as many times as possible because it's the truth as taught over and over again in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said,Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 3
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

John146
Jun 26th 2009, 09:53 PM
Whose faith is counted for righteousness? To him who is not working [us], yet is believing on Him [Christ] Who is justifying the ungodly, His [Christ] faith is counted for righteousness. You are completely twisting that text. Two verses prior it says that Abraham believed God and it, Abraham's faith, was counted for righteousness (Genesis 15:6). It says Abraham believed God, not that God believed for Abraham or gave Abraham faith.

RogerW
Jun 26th 2009, 11:04 PM
Hopefully as many times as possible because it's the truth as taught over and over again in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said,Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 3
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Hi Eric,

Since we have argued repeatedly on Jo 3:16 and Acts 16 I'll pass on those. Why is Paul saying we are "children of God by faith 'in' Christ Jesus", especially since he has just stated in vs 22 that the promise comes by faith 'of' Jesus to all who believe? We'll have to examine this passage in greater context.

The law concludes all are sinners shut up by sin so that the blessing of eternal life must come through Christ, to them that believe. That faith comes through Christ, but this was not revealed until Christ came. The law was given to guide us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Not our faith, but the faith of Christ that was to come. The law [hearing the gospel of salvtion; repent and believe the gospel] served its purpose and led us to Christ, Who is now the object of faith. On the coming of that faith [His, not ours] we are no longer under an escort, for, through faith [His] we are sons of God and believing [faith; persuasion, moral conviction, assurance] 'in' Him.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

In Romans 3 we have the same senario. If we are justified through our faith 'in' His blood, why does Paul say in vs 22 that righteousness is by faith 'of' Jesus Christ unto all that believe?

A righteousness of God has been manifested (being testified to by the law and the prophets), yet a righteousness of God, through Jesus Christ's faith, for all and on all who are believing. Being justified by His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ. The important point in this passage, however, is not our justification, but God's, for it is His righteousness which we receive. We have deliverance, believing [faith] in His blood, entirely on the ground of grace.

Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

If we say we justified by our faith in Christ, then we must reconcile the Scripture that tells us we are justified by faith of Christ. Otherwise we make the Bible contradict.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jun 26th 2009, 11:28 PM
You are completely twisting that text. Two verses prior it says that Abraham believed God and it, Abraham's faith, was counted for righteousness (Genesis 15:6). It says Abraham believed God, not that God believed for Abraham or gave Abraham faith.

Eric, how did Abraham believe? God preached the gospel unto Abraham! So Abraham recieved the gift of faith (believing) by grace, because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Jun 27th 2009, 12:33 PM
Eric, how did Abraham believe? God preached the gospel unto Abraham! So Abraham recieved the gift of faith (believing) by grace, because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Many Blessings,
RW

God did not make Abraham have faith, Abraham believed what God said.

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 27th 2009, 02:29 PM
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

When a person is converted... being dead in trespasses and sins... where does that 'faith' come from? Do they just pull it out of the air? or maybe they conjure up enough inside them to believe?

Faith is a Gift.. even unto Salvation... He helps those He knows who will inherit Eternal Life to believe...

those who follow the 'idea'.. that one day.. I just 'had' faith to believe.. or somewhere I got 'it'... or that it was all me who got enough strength and power 'to believe'... even when Dead in Trespasses and sins... that is a salvation based on 'man'...

Somebody dead in tresspasses and sins.. does not have the ability to 'love' God or to 'believe'.. unto Salvation...

Its God's plan started in Heaven by drawing that sinner to Him.. Revealing Himself and His unmerited goodness to that person.. and at that Revelation.. He will help that person to believe.. that He is who He says He is... and that It was His Goodness that has been bestowed upon that sinner.. Unmerited Grace... and He will reveal to that sinner.. that it all came thru Christ.. who Hung and Gave it all on that Bloody Tree...


Its the goodness of God that leadeth thee to Salvation...

His Umerited Goodness and the Revelation of It...

It was that Revelation back in 1994.. that took this hard hearted, stubborn man "macho man" dead in trespasses and sins... lost and without hope.... and in a few moments turned him into a sobbing repentant man.. thankful and standing in awe of God's Mercy and His Grace in my life.. telling Him.. that I would be nothing without Him and that I needed Him to live.. Help Me and take control of my life.. and that I was sorry for all my prior errs and stupidity... I'll never forget that moment.. the Burden of Guilt and shame was lifted.. it was like I was walking on air... He helped me to believe.. It's all about HIm...

Sirus
Jun 27th 2009, 04:32 PM
It is neither our faith nor our righteousness that justifies us before God. Salvation from regeneration, to sanctification and finally glorification is all of Christ and none of man; i.e. His working, His grace or divine influence upon our hearts and minds. Very clearly the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ is given, not offered, to all that believe. How do any believe the gospel before he/she is regenerated or born again by the power of the Word and Spirit? By grace which is the divine influence upon our hearts and minds, therefore by the faith of Christ we are enabled to believe in Him.It says our faith....
being understood we were created to have and use for and toward God, so of course it is of God, not man. I've said this already.

A gift is not a gift unless it is willfully received and not forced. A forced gift is no gift at all. It plainly says the grace first appeared.

We believe the gospel because we were created to. Not one verse says or implies regeneration before belief.



The first man, though made in the image of God became corrupt and lost or defiled God's image in him. Having become corrupt and defiled man must be born again from uncorruptible Seed (Christ). He then is the man who is the image and glory of God, having been born again. Fallen man, without re-birth and becoming the image of the Son will never again be spoken of as the image and glory of God.You didn't read and believe
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
You also forget 1Co 15 that tells us the created state of flesh. The first Adam was natural and corruptible. Adam was not spiritual (heavenly). He never made it there, Jesus did.

Not one verse says Adam corrupted the image of God in man, in fact I just posted again 1Co 11:7 that says that image is still in tact so I don't5 know why you say "will never again be spoken of as the image and glory of God". There is no born of the Spirit qualifier here. It is man, all men. You must assume and add the qualifier just like you have to for 1Co 15 and say it's fallen man, even though the context is the created state in which it pleased the Lord to make flesh.



When I begin to think I have something of value to offer [my faith?] to be justified before God, then I am robbing God of His glory, and God will not share His glory with another.Amen! I didn't say I had anything to offer. I said I used the faith God created me with as God intended, giving Him all the glory!



Man also became a slave of unrighteousness. As a slave/servant to sin we have no ability to make ourselves righteous through our faith.Yes, as man;
walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others
but it doesn't say we are born that way in our constitution, what scripture teaches is that our relationship changed and it is our relationship that needs reconciliation.

Again, our faith is given by God to all men for proper or improper use as we will. To say otherwise makes God a puppetmaster.


Only before the cross? Not also after the cross?
of course after but the point is before. Before the flesh could, I say could, get in the way. Jesus expected them to pray and possess their vessel, and not let their vessel control them, and this, before the cross, by faith. The spirit has always been willing. It is not dead -dysfunctional. There are hundreds of passages that show it alive and well and functioning fine as God intended before the cross.

Grace is the complete and finished work OF Christ.

Butch5
Jun 27th 2009, 04:59 PM
Hopefully as many times as possible because it's the truth as taught over and over again in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said,Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 3
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Amen John, why people don't look at context when they quote Scripture is beyond me. The works are "clearly" the works of the Mosaic Law. All one needs to do is read the book of acts to get some background on the other epistles and they will see that Paul's biggest problem was the Judaizers telling the Gentiles that they needed to follow the Law in addition to believing in Christ. Nowhere in Scripture are we told that we are to do nothing at all for our salvation.

Butch5
Jun 27th 2009, 05:30 PM
RogerW---If we say we justified by our faith in Christ, then we must reconcile the Scripture that tells us we are justified by faith of Christ. Otherwise we make the Bible contradict.

Simple enough, first look at the other translations, I only found "of" in the KJV, others say faith in Jesus Christ. However, the faith of Jesus Christ, is the gospel message. It would be like saying the faith of Buddha, which would be buddhism. What would Christ need to have faith in?

Sirus
Jun 27th 2009, 06:17 PM
Simple enough, first look at the other translations, I only found "of" in the KJV, others say faith in Jesus Christ. However, the faith of Jesus Christ, is the gospel message. It would be like saying the faith of Buddha, which would be buddhism. What would Christ need to have faith in?the faith of
is found 4x in the Greek and is why the kjb translators correctly stuck to the text these 4x. It does not mean "in" it means "of" -feminine and neutered in all their changes which is a result (of) not a cause (in).

Strong's G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:10 is of the saints not God so is not applicable to the discussion.

The other times the kjb translators used of and not in it is because the context demanded the faith to be of God not man.

Here's how I explained it in another thread......
See the verse in question?
See the red colored word "of" below?
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The phrase is "the faith of the Son of God".
We live by "the faith of the Son of God".
Well how can His faith be ours? It can't. That's not what that means. What it means is this.....

His faith never failed. He was righteous. The sinless sacrificial Lamb of God.
Because of His faith we were baptized by the Spirit into His body, and therefore "In Him". So....
Because of His faith we were crucified when He was crucified.
Because of His faith we were buried when He was buried.
Because of His faith we were raised when He was raised.
Because of His faith we....
LIVE!
are complete
have all things pertaining to life and godliness
are justified sanctified redeemed and glorified
He said I am....I am...
"I AM the resurrection and the life!"
He did it all. (grace)
He gave it all. (grace)
He did what we couldn't do. How dare we say we do, not only what only He could do, but what only He did then gave to us freely (grace). We don't crucify anything. We just believe in the position ("in Christ") given to us and when we do we experience the life given to us by "the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (grace)

RogerW
Jun 27th 2009, 07:26 PM
the faith of
is found 4x in the Greek and is why the kjb translators correctly stuck to the text these 4x. It does not mean "in" it means "of" -feminine and neutered in all their changes which is a result (of) not a cause (in).

Strong's G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:10 is of the saints not God so is not applicable to the discussion.

The other times the kjb translators used of and not in it is because the context demanded the faith to be of God not man.

Here's how I explained it in another thread......

See the verse in question?
See the red colored word "of" below?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The phrase is "the faith of the Son of God".
We live by "the faith of the Son of God".
Well how can His faith be ours? It can't. That's not what that means. What it means is this.....

His faith never failed. He was righteous. The sinless sacrificial Lamb of God.
Because of His faith we were baptized by the Spirit into His body, and therefore "In Him". So....
Because of His faith we were crucified when He was crucified.
Because of His faith we were buried when He was buried.
Because of His faith we were raised when He was raised.
Because of His faith we....
LIVE!
are complete
have all things pertaining to life and godliness
are justified sanctified redeemed and glorified
He said I am....I am...
"I AM the resurrection and the life!"
He did it all. (grace)
He gave it all. (grace)
He did what we couldn't do. How dare we say we do, not only what only He could do, but what only He did then gave to us freely (grace). We don't crucify anything. We just believe in the position ("in Christ") given to us and when we do we experience the life given to us by "the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (grace)


Hi Sirus,

For the most part I agree, the KJV has it right. One point though, 'faith' is a fruit of the Spirit that we live in when we walk in the Spirit. What happens when we choose not to walk in the Spirit? Aren't we then walking in the sinful flesh?

This fruit [faith] is not of nature, nor flesh, but is the result of the indwelling Spirit and that which is produced by Him. We can take no credit for any good or good works that are in us, for these are all by His grace. His faith in us never fails!

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If we live by the Spirit of grace, we have been made alive to God by His power and presence, therefore we should walk daily by His help, assistance, influence and direction. We begin in the Spirit and we are sanctified daily by the Spirit of God. Salvation, beginning to end is of the Lord!

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Jun 27th 2009, 09:14 PM
For the most part I agree, the KJV has it right. One point though, 'faith' is a fruit of the Spirit that we live in when we walk in the Spirit. What happens when we choose not to walk in the Spirit? Aren't we then walking in the sinful flesh?No. We are not in sinful flesh (Ro 8:9) but we are in crucified flesh, the body of sin has been destroyed, we are dead -now are we sons of God. In other words if you sin it is the new man sinning not the old. The old was crucified and buried by Christ and you can't go back dig yourself up.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


This fruit [faith] is not of nature, nor flesh, but is the result of the indwelling Spirit and that which is produced by Him. We can take no credit for any good or good works that are in us, for these are all by His grace. His faith in us never fails!

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If we live by the Spirit of grace, we have been made alive to God by His power and presence, therefore we should walk daily by His help, assistance, influence and direction. We begin in the Spirit and we are sanctified daily by the Spirit of God. Salvation, beginning to end is of the Lord!Again, there is only one kind of faith. Faith is faith and can be put in anything, but when faith is put in the complete and finished work of Christ (grace) it is effectual and produces fruit.

Galatians 5:22's faith is 'faithfulness' not to be confused with the existence of faith you were created with to put in Christ to be conformed to his image. We don't stop having faith God created us with and become robots with the addition of the Spirit.
JFB
faith — “faithfulness”; opposed to “heresies” . Alford refers to 1Co_13:7, “Believeth all things”: faith in the widest sense, toward God and man. “Trustfulness” [Conybeare and Howson].

[B]Scofield
faith, meekness, temperance -- character in expression toward God.

Taken together, they present a moral portrait of Christ, and may be taken as the apostle's explanation of (Gal_2:20). "Not I, but Christ," and as a definition of "fruit" in (Joh_15:1-8). This character is possible because of the believer's vital union to Christ; (Joh_15:5); (1Co_12:12); (1Co_12:13); and is wholly the fruit of the Spirit in those believers who are yielded to Him. (Gal_5:22); (Gal_5:23).

ESV
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Butch5
Jun 28th 2009, 01:06 AM
the faith of
is found 4x in the Greek and is why the kjb translators correctly stuck to the text these 4x. It does not mean "in" it means "of" -feminine and neutered in all their changes which is a result (of) not a cause (in).

Strong's G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:10 is of the saints not God so is not applicable to the discussion.

The other times the kjb translators used of and not in it is because the context demanded the faith to be of God not man.

Here's how I explained it in another thread......

See the verse in question?
See the red colored word "of" below?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The phrase is "the faith of the Son of God".
We live by "the faith of the Son of God".
Well how can His faith be ours? It can't. That's not what that means. What it means is this.....

His faith never failed. He was righteous. The sinless sacrificial Lamb of God.
Because of His faith we were baptized by the Spirit into His body, and therefore "In Him". So....
Because of His faith we were crucified when He was crucified.
Because of His faith we were buried when He was buried.
Because of His faith we were raised when He was raised.
Because of His faith we....
LIVE!
are complete
have all things pertaining to life and godliness
are justified sanctified redeemed and glorified
He said I am....I am...
"I AM the resurrection and the life!"
He did it all. (grace)
He gave it all. (grace)
He did what we couldn't do. How dare we say we do, not only what only He could do, but what only He did then gave to us freely (grace). We don't crucify anything. We just believe in the position ("in Christ") given to us and when we do we experience the life given to us by "the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (grace)


I don't know why I am even bothering to post. You have given me the defintion of of the Greek word for "the" no "of". Is there are reason for this?


Sirus---Strong's G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.


This is the Greek word "the" it has 24 different forms. The Greek word for "of" is "ek".


Sirus---Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Notice it says "the" faith, the Greek has the definite article. "The faith" refers to a particular faith, it is a noun. What is "the faith" of "the Son of God"? It is waht Jesus Preached. This is not speaking of an action of faith.


Acts 6:7 ( KJV )
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Acts 13:8 ( KJV )
But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

Acts 14:22 ( KJV )
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 16:5 ( KJV )
And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Acts 24:24 ( KJV )
And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Romans 1:5 ( KJV )
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 3:3 ( KJV )
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 4:16 ( KJV )
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

So, are we saved by Abraham's faith? We don't have to do anything because we are saved by the faith of Abraham? Does Abraham's faith give us eternal life? This is stated the same as Galatians 2:20. Or does this passage mean that those who have a faith like Abraham are saved? It can be read two ways, obviously it is the second that I spoke of. Likewise Galatians 2:20 can be read two ways. As we can see "the faith" is a specific" thing, not an act of showing faith.


Sirus---Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

I thought we couldn't earn faith?

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G4866. συναθλέω sunathleō; fut. sunathlō, from sun (G4862), together or together with and athleō (G118), to strive. To contend with someone, be on his side; only figuratively, to exert oneself with, to strive with or together, help, aid. With a dat. of the thing following, to strive together for (Phil. 1:27); with the dat. of person following, to strive or labor together with (Phil. 4:3).

In order to strive one must do somthing, one must labor for a cause. Given this definition and the context doesn't, striving for the Gospel fit with living according to the Gospel?


Sirus---Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


Can an act have faith? Does the operation of God have faith? Please explain how an action can have faith.

The faith of the Son of God is the Gospel, the teaching of Christ. Can you please tell me what Christ would have faith in?

Scripture says,

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV )
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Christ hope for? What has Christ not seen?

Sirus
Jun 28th 2009, 01:51 AM
I don't know why I am even bothering to post. You have given me the defintion of of the Greek word for "the" no "of". Is there are reason for this?Of course there is. You know I don't say things w/o reason or ask a question w/o already knowing the answer w/ scripture to back it up.


The Greek word for "of" is "ek".Not in these four verses it's not. Stick to the verses being discussed, do not randomly choose via English trans to try and make a point scripture does not make.


Notice it says "the" faith, the Greek has the definite article. "The faith" refers to a particular faith, it is a noun. What is "the faith" of "the Son of God"? It is waht Jesus Preached. This is not speaking of an action of faith."the" is not in the Greek but translated into English by necessity.

Correct. There is but one type of faith.

Right, faith is not an action which is why it is not a work. Faith is one of our most natural responses from God's image, if not the most natural. ;)



So, are we saved by Abraham's faith?not by but of. See, you're missing it. There's only one type of faith.




thought we couldn't earn faith?We can't. Phi 1:27 doesn't say we do. It states what we do for the faith -Christianity.




Can an act have faith? Does the operation of God have faith?This faith is in the cross of Christ and Jesus as the sinless Lamb of God that takes away our sins. Because of this, the Spirit raised Him up.




The faith of the Son of God is the Gospel, the teaching of Christ.True!




Can you please tell me what Christ would have faith in?The Father!




Scripture says,

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV )
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Christ hope for? What has Christ not seen? As the man Christ Jesus, the Son of man? You know the answer to that don't you? Since there was a time he didn't 'know' to choose the good over the evil, there was a time he didn't 'know' the unseen and hoped for, right? Right? C'mon now!!!! Was he 100% man and 100% God, or was he just God?!?

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Firstfruits
Jun 28th 2009, 11:02 AM
Is the following personal faith or God given faith?

Acts 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Acts 14:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 4:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

2 Tim 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Heb 6:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb 11:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

If we do not accept his word wil God make us to have faith/believe?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 28th 2009, 12:57 PM
Is the following personal faith or God given faith?

Acts 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Acts 14:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 4:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

2 Tim 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Heb 6:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb 11:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

If we do not accept his word wil God make us to have faith/believe?

Firstfruits

Hi Ff,

Let me offer a response this way.


As you travel home from work, you stop at the store and pick up some nice food for dinner, maybe a nice salad, a steak or pasta, food that brings anticipation to eat. As you walk through your door, finish preparing your dinner, you sit down with your family to eat, what do you do next?

Do you not thank God and say a blessing or grace? If so, what do you thank Him for? For the food? For the work? For the home? For the car? Or do you say that I worked so hard that all I have is because of what I provided? Or do your see God's hand within you, leading you, directing you, providing for you as you live and is God not worthy of your praise and the glory and given credit to all that you are and all that you hope to be?

If you agree then, so way can’t He be your faith as well?

If God is behind what you have in life, and you work, why can't He purpose who you are in Christ, and you believe?????

Butch5
Jun 28th 2009, 05:40 PM
Sirus---Of course there is. You know I don't say things w/o reason or ask a question w/o already knowing the answer w/ scripture to back it up.

Then why did you post the definition of "the"?


Sirus---Not in these four verses it's not. Stick to the verses being discussed, do not randomly choose via English trans to try and make a point scripture does not make.

Which passages have I gone to? All I said was that the Greek word for "of" didn't appear in the passage. However, since it doesn't appear I am interested in hearing your explanation of why it was translated "of".


Sirus---"the" is not in the Greek but translated into English by necessity.

Sorry my friend but "the" is in the Greek and it refers to a specific faith.

20Χρι.στῷ συ.νε.σταύ.ρω.μαι· ζῶ δὲ οὐ.κέ.τι ἐ.γώ, ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐ.μοὶ Χρι.στός· ὃ δὲ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρ.κί, ἐν πί.στει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ υἱ.οῦ τοῦ
and /but now live in flesh in faith live the the Son the

θε.οῦ τοῦ ἀ.γα.πή.σαν.τός με καὶ πα.ρα.δόν.τος ἑ.αυ.τὸν ὑ.πὲρ ἐ.μοῦ.
God the loved me and delivered himself for me.

I underlined, faith which is singular, feminine, dative. The underlined "the" matches, it is also singular, feminine dative.


Sirus---Correct. There is but one type of faith.

Right, faith is not an action which is why it is not a work. Faith is one of our most natural responses from God's image, if not the most natural. ;)


Faith is not a work?

John 6:28-29 ( KJV )
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

isn't believing faith?


Sirus---not by but of. See, you're missing it. There's only one type of faith.

I didn't miss anything, I stated it, you just didn't quoted it. You didn't answer my question. Are we saved by Abraham's faith? It is stated the same as it is in Galatians. If it is Christ's faith that saves then this passage says that it is Abraham's faith that saves.



Sirus---We can't. Phi 1:27 doesn't say we do. It states what we do for the faith -Christianity.

Thank you, that is the what I have been saying. "the faith" of the Son of God is Christianity.




Sirus---This faith is in the cross of Christ and Jesus as the sinless Lamb of God that takes away our sins. Because of this, the Spirit raised Him up.

So then it is faith in Christ and not the faith of Christ?



Sirus---The Father!

Why would He need to have faith in the Father?




Sirus---As the man Christ Jesus, the Son of man? You know the answer to that don't you? Since there was a time he didn't 'know' to choose the good over the evil, there was a time he didn't 'know' the unseen and hoped for, right? Right? C'mon now!!!! Was he 100% man and 100% God, or was he just God?!?

So you think there was a time when Christ did not know why He was here? Could you please elaborate on this from a Scriptural standpoint?

Firstfruits
Jun 28th 2009, 07:26 PM
Hi Ff,

Let me offer a response this way.


As you travel home from work, you stop at the store and pick up some nice food for dinner, maybe a nice salad, a steak or pasta, food that brings anticipation to eat. As you walk through your door, finish preparing your dinner, you sit down with your family to eat, what do you do next?

Do you not thank God and say a blessing or grace? If so, what do you thank Him for? For the food? For the work? For the home? For the car? Or do you say that I worked so hard that all I have is because of what I provided? Or do your see God's hand within you, leading you, directing you, providing for you as you live and is God not worthy of your praise and the glory and given credit to all that you are and all that you hope to be?

If you agree then, so way can’t He be your faith as well?

If God is behind what you have in life, and you work, why can't He purpose who you are in Christ, and you believe?????

God will not make you believe that he is.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 28th 2009, 08:17 PM
Hi Ff,

Let me offer a response this way.


As you travel home from work, you stop at the store and pick up some nice food for dinner, maybe a nice salad, a steak or pasta, food that brings anticipation to eat. As you walk through your door, finish preparing your dinner, you sit down with your family to eat, what do you do next?

Do you not thank God and say a blessing or grace? If so, what do you thank Him for? For the food? For the work? For the home? For the car? Or do you say that I worked so hard that all I have is because of what I provided? Or do your see God's hand within you, leading you, directing you, providing for you as you live and is God not worthy of your praise and the glory and given credit to all that you are and all that you hope to be?

If you agree then, so way can’t He be your faith as well?

If God is behind what you have in life, and you work, why can't He purpose who you are in Christ, and you believe?????



God will not make you believe that he is.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits So what you are saying is that God doesn't work in your heart to believe in Him?

Sirus
Jun 28th 2009, 10:46 PM
If you mean drawn by the Spirit, no, that's not in the Bible...- for election of some and damnation to the rest.

We are drawn to God's grace, mercy, and salvation though -the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the gospel which is why we are told to preach the gospel to the world.

BroRog
Jun 29th 2009, 12:47 AM
With regards to the following scriptures if those that endure until the end are alraedy saved why then does Jesus say that they shall be saved or that they should endure to the end?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

With the understanding that the disciples belonged to Christ why did they say that they will be saved.

Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Why should we wait until the end?

Heb 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Rev 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

These verses are descriptive, not prescriptive.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 03:15 AM
If you mean drawn by the Spirit, no, that's not in the Bible...

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.





- for election of some and damnation to the rest.

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Romans 9:18-24
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.




We are drawn to God's grace, mercy, and salvation though -the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the gospel which is why we are told to preach the gospel to the world.

What separates two men who hear the Gospel but -- one responds in faith, the other walks away... Why? Both heard the gospel? What makes one man respond and the other man not? His will? His intellect? His wisdom? What made Saul[Paul] respond? Or Peter? Or John?

Consider...

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

For His Glory...

RbG

Sirus
Jun 29th 2009, 03:44 AM
If you mean drawn by the Spirit, no, that's not in the Bible...John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. That's the point. It doesn't say the Spirit draws. It says the Father draws and the context tells us that is by the work of God, the gospel, to believe in the one the Father sent (found 8x in the chapter). His body -flesh and blood -Christ and Him crucified.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


- for election of some and damnation to the rest.Romans 9:18-24
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Romans 9 is Christ coming in the flesh through Israel (v5) to be the Savior for whosoever believeth. The will and purpose of God that could not be resisted (stopped) is this mystery of His will hidden from the foundation of the world, now revealed -the gospel, not acceptance of the gospel.
If you'd like to learn about the potter and clay relationship go read Jeremiah 18.

It doesn't make any sense to have mercy on some if His will is to have mercy on all.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.



We are drawn to God's grace, mercy, and salvation though -the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the gospel which is why we are told to preach the gospel to the world.
What separates two men who hear the Gospel but -- one responds in faith, the other walks away... Why? Both heard the gospel? What makes one man respond and the other man not? His will? His intellect? His wisdom? What made Saul[Paul] respond? Or Peter? Or John?

Consider...

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
He was talking to the disciples not you!
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
"that your fruit would remain" would be the church

One responds by the faith will and volition he was created with as a man in the image of God for the purpose of having an relationship with God and the other does not. It's that simple. Did Adam not respond because he was not chosen? Then we don't respond because we are.

Saul Peter and John were chosen specifically the the purpose of God -Christ in the flesh as Savior -gospel. The rock the church is built on. Saul was knocked off his horse and saw Jesus. Peter and John walked with Him for 3.5 years. There's no comparison to us. We believe having not seen. Is everyone a Job, Saul (Paul)? No! Why is everything in scripture applied to all when theologically convenient except when it is not theologically convenient?

Butch5
Jun 29th 2009, 03:58 AM
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.





Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Romans 9:18-24
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.




What separates two men who hear the Gospel but -- one responds in faith, the other walks away... Why? Both heard the gospel? What makes one man respond and the other man not? His will? His intellect? His wisdom? What made Saul[Paul] respond? Or Peter? Or John?

Consider...

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

For His Glory...

RbG


If you look at those verses in context you will find that they do not support your claim. John 6 speaks of the Jews being chosen to bring the gospel, while the rest were blinded. Paul says that blindness in part has come to Israel. So only those chosen could come during Jesus earthly ministry.

Ronna 3 speaks of righteousness in it's ultImate form. Only God is truely righteous. However, God does consider some men rigtheous.

Romans 9 speakes of the Jews

John 15 speaks of the apostles, they were chosen to bring the gospel to the world.

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 11:41 AM
So what you are saying is that God doesn't work in your heart to believe in Him?

Rom 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We either believe what we hear or we do not.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 11:42 AM
If you mean drawn by the Spirit, no, that's not in the Bible...- for election of some and damnation to the rest.

We are drawn to God's grace, mercy, and salvation though -the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the gospel which is why we are told to preach the gospel to the world.

Thanks Sirus,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 11:46 AM
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.





Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Romans 9:18-24
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.




What separates two men who hear the Gospel but -- one responds in faith, the other walks away... Why? Both heard the gospel? What makes one man respond and the other man not? His will? His intellect? His wisdom? What made Saul[Paul] respond? Or Peter? Or John?

Consider...

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

For His Glory...

RbG

According to the scriptures how are we called?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 11:50 AM
Rom 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We either believe what we hear or we do not.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi Ff,

But you are missing the question.... Why? Then how?

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 11:54 AM
According to the scriptures how are we called?

Firstfruits

Another miss.... For all that the Father gives, Jesus does not lose.

John 6:36-39
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 11:57 AM
Hi Ff,

But you are missing the question.... Why? Then how?

Here is the answer.

Rom 10:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and How shall they hear without a preacher?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 11:58 AM
Another miss.... For all that the Father gives, Jesus does not lose.

John 6:36-39
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

My question was how are we called?

Rom 10:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and How shall they hear without a preacher?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 12:05 PM
My question was how are we called?

Rom 10:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and How shall they hear without a preacher?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Smiling.... yes as we agree on that part, but to the OP which we've ignored somewhat, the process of salvation is all God, even the heart of response... For if not, then it is man who saves himself.

The calling of the end is to the times of the end, for the tribulation of having faith in Jesus will be great, and many will die for what they believe of Jesus, but those who hold on to their faith, manage not to be killed for it, will see their life saved when Christ returns and ruptured.

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 12:25 PM
Smiling.... yes as we agree on that part, but to the OP which we've ignored somewhat, the process of salvation is all God, even the heart of response... For if not, then it is man who saves himself.

The calling of the end is to the times of the end, for the tribulation of having faith in Jesus will be great, and many will die for what they believe of Jesus, but those who hold on to their faith, manage not to be killed for it, will see their life saved when Christ returns and ruptured.

The plan of salvation is Gods but he requires us to believe and to have faith in Christ.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

God does not force us to obey his commandments, he does however give us options of believing or not.

Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 12:41 PM
The plan of salvation is Gods but he requires us to believe and to have faith in Christ.

1 Jn 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

God does not force us to obey his commandments, he does however give us options of believing or not.

Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

The sum of the word is truth… All of scripture must fit together like a glove fits a hand for truth to be truth… So how does Romans 3:10-12 fit?

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."


If no one seeks, or understands, and no one does good, how then can man have a choice to believe or not if no one seeks, understands or does good things? The argument is not to the open call, For God has declared that all need to humble themselves and repent and believe, yet all will not, in fact a finger of the glove of truth says none will.... so to those who do, how did they do it? And I contend that scripture points out very clearly that salvation is of the Lord, just ask Jonah for what he learned? :saint: So it is God working in the heart of His elect, whereas God pours out His Spirit on those for whom God has given Jesus, for them to hear the Gospel, understand the Gospel, respond appropriately to the Gospel, and live the Gospel and Christ lives within them [and us].


Praise God! And for His glory!


RbG

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 12:52 PM
The sum of the word is truth… All of scripture must fit together like a glove fits a hand for truth to be truth… So how does Romans 3:10-12 fit?

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."


If no one seeks, or understands, and no one does good, how then can man have a choice to believe or not if no one seeks, understands or does good things? The argument is not to the open call, For God has declared that all need to humble themselves and repent and believe, yet all will not, in fact a finger of the glove of truth says none will.... so to those who do, how did they do it? And I contend that scripture points out very clearly that salvation is of the Lord, just ask Jonah for what he learned? :saint: So it is God working in the heart of His elect, whereas God pours out His Spirit on those for whom God has given Jesus, for them to hear the Gospel, understand the Gospel, respond appropriately to the Gospel, and live the Gospel and Christ lives within them [and us].


Praise God! And for His glory!


RbG

The scripture is stating that Jews are no better than gentiles and that are are all same, we are all unrighteous in the sight of God.

Only by Christ are we made righteous and justified in the sight of God.

Rom 3:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Read the whole chapter and you will have the complete answer.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 01:32 PM
The scripture is stating that Jews are no better than gentiles and that are are all same, we are all unrighteous in the sight of God.

Only by Christ are we made righteous and justified in the sight of God.

Rom 3:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Read the whole chapter and you will have the complete answer.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


It applies to all men, Jews and Greeks - that all are not righteous, not even one... Remember the blended audience here, the time that Paul wrote this, the political scene of Rome at the time, the direct instruction they lacked as a church until Paul's letter....

So as you say - it's up to a man to believe, how then can he if all men - both Jew and Gentile - do not seek for God? Again I agree that Jesus is Savior, for His death and resurrection is the hope of our faith.... But the question remains about faith.... where does it emanate from... From man or from God....? For man can do nothing outside the will of God, or do you say that it's up to man to believe and God has no part in one's faith?

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 02:21 PM
It applies to all men, Jews and Greeks - that all are not righteous, not even one... Remember the blended audience here, the time that Paul wrote this, the political scene of Rome at the time, the direct instruction they lacked as a church until Paul's letter....

So as you say - it's up to a man to believe, how then can he if all men - both Jew and Gentile - do not seek for God? Again I agree that Jesus is Savior, for His death and resurrection is the hope of our faith.... But the question remains about faith.... where does it emanate from... From man or from God....? For man can do nothing outside the will of God, or do you say that it's up to man to believe and God has no part in one's faith?

Have you or have you not obeyed Christs command regarding the following scripture?

Mt 6:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What does it mean to seek the kingdom of God?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 02:40 PM
Have you or have you not obeyed Christs command regarding the following scripture?

Mt 6:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What does it mean to seek the kingdom of God?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Ff,

We keep traveling father and father away from the point, that unless God births a believer, no one can seek, no one can find. Those that do seek, those that do find, are those for whom God has birthed to believe.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 03:01 PM
Have you or have you not obeyed Christs command regarding the following scripture?

Mt 6:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What does it mean to seek the kingdom of God?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

And adding by bringing back a question in which I didn't see an answer.... Is the food on your table because of the work you do, or is it the work of God in you and through you?

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 03:12 PM
Ff,

We keep traveling father and father away from the point, that unless God births a believer, no one can seek, no one can find. Those that do seek, those that do find, are those for whom God has birthed to believe.

If no one can seek God then the following is false.

Mt 7:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Lk 11:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And I say unto you, Ask, And it shall be given you; seek, And ye shall find; knock, And it shall be opened unto you.
Lk 11:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Acts 17:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Col 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 29th 2009, 03:14 PM
Ff,

We keep traveling father and father away from the point, that unless God births a believer, no one can seek, no one can find. Those that do seek, those that do find, are those for whom God has birthed to believe.


Excellent post.. this post places the emphasis on God Himself... He is the One 'birthing'.. It starts in Heaven and Salvation Ends with Him.. for Jesus is the Author and the Finisher of His Own's Walk of Faith..

and I can attest that for those that 'seek'... you will Not be Disappointed because when you Find.. you will find the Person of Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh.... and with Him come all the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven...

Salvation belongs to God from start to Finish.. and this means even the Redemption of the Body to wit... a new glorified body which death, sin, and disease has no more power over.. and a body that will not be subject to the 2nd Death.. the Lake of Fire..

Salvation from Start to Finish... >>>>> Belong's to God...

for He 'know's ' His Own..

its not... Salvation starts with God... then 'emphasis' placed back on man.. and his/her ability to somehow 'achieve' Heaven based on how good they can be or how Righteous they can be out of their own power, religious rules and regulations that attempt to make man Righteous and Holy..

Everything.. the Elect of God have... comes from God Himself.... He is their Source of Life... Holiness, Faith and Righteousness... they are totally Dependant on Him... not placing trust in man and his cunning religious ways.. no matter how good it looks.. but placing Trust in the Work of Christ on that Bloody Tree .. from where all they have , 'flows' From...... for without His Sacrafice... we would have nothing.. and be nothing... He is Our Everything... and He will be our Guide even unto Physical Death..

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 03:21 PM
Excellent post.. this post places the emphasis on God Himself... He is the One 'birthing'.. It starts in Heaven and Salvation Ends with Him.. for Jesus is the Author and the Finisher of His Own's Walk of Faith..

and I can attest that for those that 'seek'... you will Not be Disappointed because when you Find.. you will find the Person of Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh.... and with Him come all the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven...

Salvation belongs to God from start to Finish.. and this means even the Redemption of the Body to wit... a new glorified body which death, sin, and disease has no more power over.. and a body that will not be subject to the 2nd Death.. the Lake of Fire..

Salvation from Start to Finish... >>>>> Belong's to God...

for He 'know's ' His Own..

its not... Salvation starts with God... then 'emphasis' placed back on man.. and his/her ability to somehow 'achieve' Heaven based on how good they can be or how Righteous they can be out of their own power, religious rules and regulations that attempt to make man Righteous and Holy..

Everything.. the Elect of God have... comes from God Himself.... He is their Source of Life... Holiness, Faith and Righteousness... they are totally Dependant on Him... not placing trust in man and his cunning religious ways.. no matter how good it looks.. but placing Trust in the Work of Christ on that Bloody Tree .. from where all they have , 'flows' From...... for without His Sacrafice... we would have nothing.. and be nothing... He is Our Everything... and He will be our Guide even unto Physical Death..

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

What if we do not seek him, will he reward us?

Mt 6:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 03:23 PM
If no one can seek God then the following is false.

Mt 7:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Lk 11:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And I say unto you, Ask, And it shall be given you; seek, And ye shall find; knock, And it shall be opened unto you.
Lk 11:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Acts 17:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Col 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


No...... that's not what God says within His word..... God gives faith, gives salvation, gives life and because of God, you believe, you repent, you live because God lives within you. It's all His work... For any man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, least any man should boast.... for you must be born of the Spirit.

The Beloved Disciple does a good job in further defining...

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 03:29 PM
No...... that's not what God says within His word..... God gives faith, gives salvation, gives life and because of God, you believe, you repent, you live because God lives within you. It's all His work... For any man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, least any man should boast.... for you must be born of the Spirit.

The Beloved Disciple does a good job in further defining...

Where is the scripture that says that God gives faith or makes us believe?

If we have nothing to do with the plan of salvation then why should we believe, since no matter what we believe or do not believe we shall be saved as long as it is Gods will.

If we do not believe then how can we recieve the Spirit?

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 29th 2009, 03:34 PM
If no one can seek God then the following is false.

Mt 7:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Lk 11:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And I say unto you, Ask, And it shall be given you; seek, And ye shall find; knock, And it shall be opened unto you.
Lk 11:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Acts 17:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Col 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

If a person is dead in trespasses and sins... he/she is unregenreate... unable to love God.. or 'know' who He is... unable to 'seek'.. or 'know' the Truth... but God in His Mercy 'starts' the Process of Salvation in Heaven.. by starting to Draw that sinner to Himself.. by the Holy Ghost.. the Spirit draws.. and helps the convert.. because he/she in an unregenerate state can't do it.... God has to 'birth' and He uses the Holy Ghost.. who is God.. to help that sinner come to the Revelation of who God is... Jesus the Christ God manifest in the flesh.. Jesus is the Author of Salvation and He is the Finisher of the Elect's Faith...

you can 'seek' in the Scripture all you want.. seek and look .. memorize, divulge, interpret.. all those things.. yet if God is not behind the 'drawing' and 'illumination'.. then its really nothing but a 'dry' Logos.. no life.. but just words...

and Jesus told the Religous Elite of His Day...

You search the Scriptures and read them every day.. teaching and divulging.. yet they missed it.. The Scriptures told Him and Pointed to Him.. yet they did not see Him or Recognize Him... obviously the Spirit of the Living God.. was not the author of their 'seeking' and 'divulging'... if He was.. then they would of all 'understood ' and 'known'.. that the Son of Man was standing right before them... instead.. they hurled insults and false accusations at Him.. accusing Him.. and finally murdering Him on a bloody Tree...

The Spirit of God.. will help a Convert to Seek.. He teaches and He brings to Remembrance the things taught of Jesus... man in his unregenerate state cannot seek God on His Own.. he/she runs from the Light and Truth.. if one says man can come to God on His own.. and that God has very little to do with the Process of Salvation.. putting the emphasis back on 'man'.. and his/her ability to 'achieve' a righteousness of their own.. then that is not a Gospel of Grace..

but of Works..

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 03:49 PM
If a person is dead in trespasses and sins... he/she is unregenreate... unable to love God.. or 'know' who He is... unable to 'seek'.. or 'know' the Truth... but God in His Mercy 'starts' the Process of Salvation in Heaven.. by starting to Draw that sinner to Himself.. by the Holy Ghost.. the Spirit draws.. and helps the convert.. because he/she in an unregenerate state can't do it.... God has to 'birth' and He uses the Holy Ghost.. who is God.. to help that sinner come to the Revelation of who God is... Jesus the Christ God manifest in the flesh.. Jesus is the Author of Salvation and He is the Finisher of the Elect's Faith...

you can 'seek' in the Scripture all you want.. seek and look .. memorize, divulge, interpret.. all those things.. yet if God is not behind the 'drawing' and 'illumination'.. then its really nothing but a 'dry' Logos.. no life.. but just words...

and Jesus told the Religous Elite of His Day...

You search the Scriptures and read them every day.. teaching and divulging.. yet they missed it.. The Scriptures told Him and Pointed to Him.. yet they did not see Him or Recognize Him... obviously the Spirit of the Living God.. was not the author of their 'seeking' and 'divulging'... if He was.. then they would of all 'understood ' and 'known'.. that the Son of Man was standing right before them... instead.. they hurled insults and false accusations at Him.. accusing Him.. and finally murdering Him on a bloody Tree...

The Spirit of God.. will help a Convert to Seek.. He teaches and He brings to Remembrance the things taught of Jesus... man in his unregenerate state cannot seek God on His Own.. he/she runs from the Light and Truth.. if one says man can come to God on His own.. and that God has very little to do with the Process of Salvation.. putting the emphasis back on 'man'.. and his/her ability to 'achieve' a righteousness of their own.. then that is not a Gospel of Grace..

but of Works..

Were we not all dead in trespasses and sins, and have we not been regenerated

Eph 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col 2:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

How has God forgiven our sins?

firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 04:02 PM
Where is the scripture that says that God gives faith or makes us believe?

If we have nothing to do with the plan of salvation then why should we believe, since no matter what we believe or do not believe we shall be saved as long as it is Gods will.

If we do not believe then how can we recieve the Spirit?

Firstfruits

Hi Ff,

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 29th 2009, 04:04 PM
Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

What if we do not seek him, will he reward us?

Mt 6:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Greetings FF...

The Impression I get is that its ' your works of seeking'.. that God will reward you.... God will reward you based on 'your works'.... your trying to gain favor or some reward with God by 'your seeking'.. and that in the 'end'.. He will give you a reward because you 'sought'.... To me it seems you are placing the challenge and weight of seeking Him... on You..

His Burden is not heavy.. His Yoke is Easy... and He will help you to Seek Him.. Prior to Conversion and after He has Saved you.. this done thru the Power of the Holy Ghost..


He will Reward you.. when you seek... .. but He is the Author of that Seeking.. He helps you... it's His Will that you 'know' Him... if your Truly His...... It's His Will that you just don't seek and search the Scripture without any kind of 'illumination'.. He is the Author and He will help you to seek... and bring to 'LIGHT' the Truth behind the Scripture... He is not condemning nor accusatory when He does this... and He allows you to seek Him.. and gives you the Desire to seek Him.. as You Grow in Him.. Grow in Grace and Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ..

He Alone is the Source of that desire to seek Him.. and He Rewards when you do follow that 'prompting' by the Holy Ghost..

it should never 'be a burden and 'weight' on the Believer.. because if we don't seek Him. then He won't reward us.. based on our ability.. out of our own power..

that is a Gospel of Works...

If you are His.. You will want to seek Him.. and 'know' Him.. for He will give you that Desire... not based on a 'reward'.. but because you Love Him for Who He is..

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 04:11 PM
Hi Ff,

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith according to what is written is the same as believing, so we are saved by grace by believing, but believing in what?

Firstfruits

John146
Jun 29th 2009, 04:17 PM
Eric, how did Abraham believe? God preached the gospel unto Abraham! Not all who have the gospel preached to them believe. It was Abraham's choice to believe.


So Abraham recieved the gift of faith (believing) by grace, because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Many Blessings,
RWNowhere does it say that God gave saving/justifying faith to Abraham. Instead, it says "Abraham believed God". Who is doing the believing there? Abraham.

John146
Jun 29th 2009, 04:20 PM
If a person is dead in trespasses and sins... he/she is unregenreate... unable to love God.. or 'know' who He is... unable to 'seek'.. or 'know' the Truth... but God in His Mercy 'starts' the Process of Salvation in Heaven.. by starting to Draw that sinner to Himself.. by the Holy Ghost.. the Spirit draws.. and helps the convert.. because he/she in an unregenerate state can't do it.... God has to 'birth' and He uses the Holy Ghost.. who is God.. to help that sinner come to the Revelation of who God is... Jesus the Christ God manifest in the flesh.. Jesus is the Author of Salvation and He is the Finisher of the Elect's Faith...Did Jesus not say He would draw all men to Himself (John 12:32)? Why are you neglecting to mention that some resist it?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 29th 2009, 04:29 PM
Were we not all dead in trespasses and sins, and have we not been regenerated

Eph 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col 2:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

How has God forgiven our sins?

firstfruits


God has forgiven my sin and your sin.. by being Nailed to that Bloody tree.. for without the shedding of blood.. there is No Forgiveness of Sin... and His Blood is Pure and Innocent..

He also Quickened .. which means bring back to life.. this process.. started by Him .. He is the Author of it.. He removes the condemnation and guilt.. washing it away with His Holy Blood.. translating that person who was once in the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of LIght.. and the Kingdom of His Dear Son... we are seated with Him in the Heavenlies... the sinner is drawn to Him.. He Reveals His Unmerited Goodness to that sinner.. thus brining that sinner to Repentance... for its the Goodness of God that leadeth a person to Repentance... that 'sinner' in his/her unregenerate state cannont percieve or 'know' the goodness of God in their lives... UNLESS>> God reveals IT to them.. thru the Spirit.. which shows that He is the Author of Salvation and He is the One in Control of the New Birth... its not man deciding one day to make a decision for God or Christ.. uh uh...

everybody is dead in Trespasses and Sin.. prior to being Born Again.. from Above... this 'birthing'.. starts with God HImself and ends with Him... no man comes to Him unless "HE DRAWS" them.. which points towards a Salvation which is Grounded in God Himself.. not man..

John146
Jun 29th 2009, 04:46 PM
Why is Paul saying we are "children of God by faith 'in' Christ Jesus", especially since he has just stated in vs 22 that the promise comes by faith 'of' Jesus to all who believe? We'll have to examine this passage in greater context. Are you saying the word "in" does not belong there in verse 26? Do you think there no such thing as faith in Jesus Christ?



The law concludes all are sinners shut up by sin so that the blessing of eternal life must come through Christ, to them that believe. That faith comes through Christ, but this was not revealed until Christ came. The law was given to guide us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Not our faith, but the faith of Christ that was to come. The law [hearing the gospel of salvtion; repent and believe the gospel] served its purpose and led us to Christ, Who is now the object of faith. On the coming of that faith [His, not ours] we are no longer under an escort, for, through faith [His] we are sons of God and believing [faith; persuasion, moral conviction, assurance] 'in' Him.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

In Romans 3 we have the same senario. If we are justified through our faith 'in' His blood, why does Paul say in vs 22 that righteousness is by faith 'of' Jesus Christ unto all that believe?

A righteousness of God has been manifested (being testified to by the law and the prophets), yet a righteousness of God, through Jesus Christ's faith, for all and on all who are believing. Being justified by His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ. The important point in this passage, however, is not our justification, but God's, for it is His righteousness which we receive. We have deliverance, believing [faith] in His blood, entirely on the ground of grace.

Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

If we say we justified by our faith in Christ, then we must reconcile the Scripture that tells us we are justified by faith of Christ. Otherwise we make the Bible contradict.

Many Blessings,
RWThis is how it should be reconciled. The righteousness of God was fulfilled by the faithfulness of Christ to finish the work that He came to do. His righteousness "for the remission of sins that are past" is placed "unto all and upon all them that believe" and "him which believeth in Jesus". He justifies "him which believeth IN Jesus". One must put his or her faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved and justified. He/she must stop trusting in themselves and acknowledge that they are sinners and need Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior.

In Galatians 3:22, it is not saying that the faith of Christ is given to them that believe. Why wouuld they need to be given faith when they already believe? No, it's saying that "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ" is given to those who believe. What promise is that?

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Through faith in whom? Christ.

Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

If Abraham had no faith of his own, why is he called "faithful Abraham" and why does it say he "believed God" instead of saying he received faith from God?

John146
Jun 29th 2009, 05:03 PM
No...... that's not what God says within His word..... God gives faith, gives salvation, gives life and because of God, you believe, you repent, you live because God lives within you. It's all His work... For any man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God, because of God, least any man should boast.... for you must be born of the Spirit.

The Beloved Disciple does a good job in further defining...If one repents and acknowledges that they are a sinner in need of God's mercy, forgiveness and salvation and they deny themselves and instead place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, does that mean they can then boast about it afterwards? Would they? They just finished humbling themselves before God. Why would they then turn around and exalt themselves?

I appreciate your concern about anyone trying to boast regarding their salvation as if they deserve credit for it, but anyone who has truly repented of their sins and surrendered their lives to Christ would not dream of doing that.

Your view removes responsibility from man. Instead of a person being held responsible by God for willingly denying Christ, it makes God responsible for not giving that person the ability to accept Christ. If no one is responsible for their decisions and God makes their decision for them then what is the purpose of the day of judgment? Why will people have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account of themselves? If your view was correct then all anyone will have to say is "I did exactly what You made me capable of doing". Despite supposedly never having had the ability to put their faith in Christ billions of people will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. How can that be reconciled with the fact that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and desires that they repent before they die?

Why would God want all people to repent and be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6, 2 Peter 3:9, Eze 18:23, Eze 33:11, Acts 17:30-31) if not all people can repent and be saved?

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 29th 2009, 05:05 PM
Did Jesus not say He would draw all men to Himself (John 12:32)? Why are you neglecting to mention that some resist it?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Eric, I appreciate the Dialogue.. and Greetings to you...


If HE BE LIFTED UP, Eric.. He would draw all men to Himself.. this pointing to the Cross...

Yes Eric.. some resist the Calling of God.. they resist the Holy Ghost... they are stiffnecked... as ye fathers did.. so do ye...


but what of those that are called? yet not Chosen?

many are called............ but Few Chosen?

God called them.. they responded..... yet they were not Chosen....

and this proven by the Words of Jesus Himself.. many will stand before Him.. pleading they did all these great things in His name... yet He never 'knew' them........ depart from me ye that work inquity...

did they 'resist' the Holy Ghost? for if they resisted the Holy Ghost.. then they would of not responded to the 'call'...

But.. Jesus said.. many are Called .. yet Few are Chosen...


where is your emphasis as far as Salvation ?

mans choice or God's Choice??

Does God not 'know' His Own.. Does not He care for His Own Elect?

God "knows' His Own Eric.. and His Own 'know' that Salvation begins with Him and Ends with Him... its a God centered Salvation..

not a salvation based on man.. with the emphasis based on him...

and It all points back to the Cross Eric... its such a stumbling block and offense to so many..
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Man says.. the issues of salvation belong ot me... YES I CAN>>

but you see..

God says... No you can't... the Issues of Salvation belong to God Himself.. and if it didn't .. the Cross would of never happened...

The Issues of Salvation belong to the One who Died a physcial death on that bloody tree... The Belong to HIm alone.. and He is the One who is Alive today.... Seated at the Right Hand of the Power of God..

the question arises...... Do you 'know' Him today? not a knowledge of Him.. based on theoogical doctrinal letters put together by men in religion...


but do you "KNOW" Him..


Greetings to you .. Have a Great Week!

John146
Jun 29th 2009, 05:41 PM
Eric, I appreciate the Dialogue.. and Greetings to you...


If HE BE LIFTED UP, Eric.. He would draw all men to Himself.. this pointing to the Cross...

Yes Eric.. some resist the Calling of God.. they resist the Holy Ghost... they are stiffnecked... as ye fathers did.. so do ye...


but what of those that are called? yet not Chosen?

many are called............ but Few Chosen?

God called them.. they responded..... yet they were not Chosen....Some respond by willingly refusing to accept the invitation.

Matt 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.


and this proven by the Words of Jesus Himself.. many will stand before Him.. pleading they did all these great things in His name... yet He never 'knew' them........ depart from me ye that work inquity...

did they 'resist' the Holy Ghost? for if they resisted the Holy Ghost.. then they would of not responded to the 'call'... What about those who "would not come"?


But.. Jesus said.. many are Called .. yet Few are Chosen...


where is your emphasis as far as Salvation ?

mans choice or God's Choice??It was God's work and it is God's offer and man is responsible to choose to accept it or not.


Does God not 'know' His Own.. Does not He care for His Own Elect?

God "knows' His Own Eric.. and His Own 'know' that Salvation begins with Him and Ends with Him... its a God centered Salvation..Without God's grace that He showed by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) there would be no salvation. God did all the work but that does not mean man is not responsible to repent and believe.


not a salvation based on man.. with the emphasis based on him... Salvation is based on God, but we cannot ignore that He holds men responsible to repent and put their faith in His Son.


and It all points back to the Cross Eric... its such a stumbling block and offense to so many..
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Man says.. the issues of salvation belong ot me... YES I CAN>> By humbling yourself and putting your faith in Christ it does not mean you are saving yourself or trying to take credit for salvation. Instead, it's the opposite. You are acknowledging that you can't save yourself and need Jesus Christ to save you.


but you see..

God says... No you can't... the Issues of Salvation belong to God Himself.. and if it didn't .. the Cross would of never happened...

The Issues of Salvation belong to the One who Died a physcial death on that bloody tree... The Belong to HIm alone.. and He is the One who is Alive today.... Seated at the Right Hand of the Power of God..

the question arises...... Do you 'know' Him today? not a knowledge of Him.. based on theoogical doctrinal letters put together by men in religion...


but do you "KNOW" Him..Of course. And how does one get to know Him? Only by repenting of one's sins and putting one's faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Matthew 16
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Butch5
Jun 29th 2009, 08:42 PM
Ff,

We keep traveling father and father away from the point, that unless God births a believer, no one can seek, no one can find. Those that do seek, those that do find, are those for whom God has birthed to believe.

Can you show me where Scripture teaches that one must be born before they can seek?

Butch5
Jun 29th 2009, 08:46 PM
If a person is dead in trespasses and sins... he/she is unregenreate... unable to love God.. or 'know' who He is... unable to 'seek'.. or 'know' the Truth... but God in His Mercy 'starts' the Process of Salvation in Heaven.. by starting to Draw that sinner to Himself.. by the Holy Ghost.. the Spirit draws.. and helps the convert.. because he/she in an unregenerate state can't do it.... God has to 'birth' and He uses the Holy Ghost.. who is God.. to help that sinner come to the Revelation of who God is... Jesus the Christ God manifest in the flesh.. Jesus is the Author of Salvation and He is the Finisher of the Elect's Faith...

you can 'seek' in the Scripture all you want.. seek and look .. memorize, divulge, interpret.. all those things.. yet if God is not behind the 'drawing' and 'illumination'.. then its really nothing but a 'dry' Logos.. no life.. but just words...

and Jesus told the Religous Elite of His Day...

You search the Scriptures and read them every day.. teaching and divulging.. yet they missed it.. The Scriptures told Him and Pointed to Him.. yet they did not see Him or Recognize Him... obviously the Spirit of the Living God.. was not the author of their 'seeking' and 'divulging'... if He was.. then they would of all 'understood ' and 'known'.. that the Son of Man was standing right before them... instead.. they hurled insults and false accusations at Him.. accusing Him.. and finally murdering Him on a bloody Tree...

The Spirit of God.. will help a Convert to Seek.. He teaches and He brings to Remembrance the things taught of Jesus... man in his unregenerate state cannot seek God on His Own.. he/she runs from the Light and Truth.. if one says man can come to God on His own.. and that God has very little to do with the Process of Salvation.. putting the emphasis back on 'man'.. and his/her ability to 'achieve' a righteousness of their own.. then that is not a Gospel of Grace..

but of Works..

So then are all men elect??? Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw all men. Jesus was lifted up.

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 09:09 PM
God has forgiven my sin and your sin.. by being Nailed to that Bloody tree.. for without the shedding of blood.. there is No Forgiveness of Sin... and His Blood is Pure and Innocent..

He also Quickened .. which means bring back to life.. this process.. started by Him .. He is the Author of it.. He removes the condemnation and guilt.. washing it away with His Holy Blood.. translating that person who was once in the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of LIght.. and the Kingdom of His Dear Son... we are seated with Him in the Heavenlies... the sinner is drawn to Him.. He Reveals His Unmerited Goodness to that sinner.. thus brining that sinner to Repentance... for its the Goodness of God that leadeth a person to Repentance... that 'sinner' in his/her unregenerate state cannont percieve or 'know' the goodness of God in their lives... UNLESS>> God reveals IT to them.. thru the Spirit.. which shows that He is the Author of Salvation and He is the One in Control of the New Birth... its not man deciding one day to make a decision for God or Christ.. uh uh...

everybody is dead in Trespasses and Sin.. prior to being Born Again.. from Above... this 'birthing'.. starts with God HImself and ends with Him... no man comes to Him unless "HE DRAWS" them.. which points towards a Salvation which is Grounded in God Himself.. not man..

There can be no change unless we first believe, and God will not make us believe. If we choose not to obey the plan of salvation does not change, we must first believe.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 09:10 PM
Can you show me where Scripture teaches that one must be born before they can seek?

Sure.....

John 3; Joel 2:28....

So think this through as to your physical birth, can you seek and know and understand before your are born as a babe? Jesus is clear to Nicodemus, who if you will remember was a teacher of teachers of the Jewish faith [John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?] , telling him he must be born of water and of Spirit [John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ]

So yes, a man must be born of God before a man can come to God....

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 09:16 PM
So then are all men elect??? Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw all men. Jesus was lifted up.

No... all men do not seek.... But by Christ's death and resurrection, all men have benefit of God's temporal grace.... and one day, every knee will bow and every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus is God and Lord of creation...

To those for whom God has called in grace to salvation.... we know this before death; to those who have rejected, will see Him for who He is and it will be too late for them.

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 09:18 PM
Sure.....

John 3; Joel 2:28....

So think this through as to your physical birth, can you seek and know and understand before your are born as a babe? Jesus is clear to Nicodemus, who if you will remember was a teacher of teachers of the Jewish faith [John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?] , telling him he must be born of water and of Spirit [John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ]

So yes, a man must be born of God before a man can come to God....

Did he not have to believe first?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 09:18 PM
There can be no change unless we first believe, and God will not make us believe. If we choose not to obey the plan of salvation does not change, we must first believe.

Firstfruits

Again, is it the work that brings food on the table or God working in you that brings food to the table?

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 09:20 PM
No... all men do not seek.... But by Christ's death and resurrection, all men have benefit of God's temporal grace.... and one day, every knee will bow and every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus is God and Lord of creation...

To those for whom God has called in grace to salvation.... we know this before death; to those who have rejected, will see Him for who He is and it will be too late for them.

Are those that believe seekers of God?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 09:22 PM
Again, is it the work that brings food on the table or God working in you that brings food to the table?

Can God or his Spirit dwell in that which is unclean?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 09:22 PM
Did he not have to believe first?

Firstfruits

He couldn't. That is Jesus' point.... He can't unless it has been given to him to believe.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 09:23 PM
Can God or his Spirit dwell in that which is unclean?

Firstfruits

So you are unclean?

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 09:25 PM
He couldn't. That is Jesus' point.... He can't unless it has been given to him to believe.

But God does not force any man to believe does he?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 09:28 PM
So you are unclean?

I believe that because I confessed my sins I am no longer unclean?

I first believed the word that was preached.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 09:29 PM
But God does not force any man to believe does he?

Firstfruits

You're stuck on the word force... Why?


Can you not give the credit and glory to God for saving you from eternal damnation?

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 09:31 PM
I believe that because I confessed my sins I am no longer unclean?

I first believed the word that was preached.

Firstfruits

So then back to the question I asked... "...is it the work that brings food on the table or God working in you that brings food to the table?" which is used to show that God works in and through man to the counsel of His will for His glory.

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 09:35 PM
You're stuck on the word force... Why?


Can you not give the credit and glory to God for saving you from eternal damnation?

God has all the credit, but he says that we must believe on his son Jesus in order for us to be saved.

We must believe.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2009, 09:37 PM
So then back to the question I asked... "...is it the work that brings food on the table or God working in you that brings food to the table?" which is used to show that God works in and through man to the counsel of His will for His glory.

What is the work of God?

What is the work of Christ?

Can we be saved without it?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 29th 2009, 10:35 PM
What is the work of God?

What is the work of Christ?

Can we be saved without it?

Firstfruits

So I'll take your response to the question as one who doesn't give God credit for the food on the table, or the work that brings the food, or anything that you have, for that's your work. So God leaves man alone and hopes that some will find Him.

Gottcha ;)

Sirus
Jun 29th 2009, 11:12 PM
Hi Ff,

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.'through' faith is the means of obtaining the gift, it is not the gift. The gift in the context is salvation.

Sirus
Jun 29th 2009, 11:16 PM
You're stuck on the word force... Why?


Can you not give the credit and glory to God for saving you from eternal damnation?
not if he forced me and not others :idea:

Sirus
Jun 29th 2009, 11:20 PM
So I'll take your response to the question as one who doesn't give God credit for the food on the table, or the work that brings the food, or anything that you have, for that's your work. So God leaves man alone and hopes that some will find Him.

Gottcha ;)How do those things come about?

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Sure God gets the credit for creating the work ;) That's why man was put here, to dress (labor) the garden. Scripture is clear all thing were created for His pleasure. No one has disputed that. How does this relate to being saved from eternal damnation, again?

watchinginawe
Jun 29th 2009, 11:23 PM
So then back to the question I asked... "...is it the work that brings food on the table or God working in you that brings food to the table?" which is used to show that God works in and through man to the counsel of His will for His glory.RbG, that actually is a pretty good example of synergism. God doesn't just beam down the food (well, excepting manna of course), nor does God will us to work against our desire.

Paul offered:

II Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

I could offer more scripture to enlarge the context, but I think it is clsoe to exactly as it says.

We can look at this similarly to belief, according to your example.

That if any would not believe, neither should he be saved.

So the anser to your question is not God, or the work of man, but man cooperating with God.

God Bless!

Partaker of Christ
Jun 30th 2009, 12:15 AM
There can be no change unless we first believe, and God will not make us believe. If we choose not to obey the plan of salvation does not change, we must first believe.

Firstfruits

If it is God who opens our eyes to seeing, then who is it that causes us to believe?

Blessed are your eyes and your ears.

Flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven.

Butch5
Jun 30th 2009, 01:34 AM
Sure.....

John 3; Joel 2:28....

So think this through as to your physical birth, can you seek and know and understand before your are born as a babe? Jesus is clear to Nicodemus, who if you will remember was a teacher of teachers of the Jewish faith [John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?] , telling him he must be born of water and of Spirit [John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ]

So yes, a man must be born of God before a man can come to God....

Where do either of these passages teach that no one can seek God before he is born again.

Let me ask you a question, is every man born again?

John 1:5-9 ( KJV )
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Light is a metphor for understanding, according to John, Christ gives this understanding to every person who comes into the world so that they can be saved.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 30th 2009, 02:03 AM
'through' faith is the means of obtaining the gift, it is not the gift. The gift in the context is salvation.

No... True faith is God-breathed, and that is what Paul states in Ephesians 2:8... look at the words, what is the it?

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 30th 2009, 02:26 AM
RbG, that actually is a pretty good example of synergism. God doesn't just beam down the food (well, excepting manna of course), nor does God will us to work against our desire.

Paul offered:

II Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

I could offer more scripture to enlarge the context, but I think it is clsoe to exactly as it says.

We can look at this similarly to belief, according to your example.

That if any would not believe, neither should he be saved.

So the anser to your question is not God, or the work of man, but man cooperating with God.

God Bless!

I don't count that as synergism at all... I see God working in a monergistic way, as I have stated many times over the years, that a man's salvation is for God, by God, of God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast.

I thank God for who He is, and what He does in my life just as David does in Psalm 23... And if 'man cooperates with God' as you say, not wanting to offend, but I find that almost sinful, for God needing man's cooperation at all for His will to be done positions man as God's equal. No man comes to God on His own, God always reaches out to man. He is the author, the giver, the creator, the sustainer, and the finisher of all things, and for all things He created for Himself and His glory... man does not and cannot 'cooperate' with God on his own, for sin keeps him in judgement. Christ came, and yet the world killed Him.... Nice cooperation, eh?

God chose a man in Abraham, a people as Israel, a nation, the church, and a people from every tongue and tribe.... all by qualification that God set as the bar, and not as any man qualified by any heritage, work or wisdom. As was quoted earlier and either over looked or dismissed, that it's God who does the choosing, it's God who has predestined and foreordained, and it's God who opens the eyes and the hearts of those who believe....


Proverbs 16:9 Man plans his ways, but the Lord directs His path.... Not Synergism. Pure Monergism with a twist; man thinks it's all himself, when in reality, God controls all things and even allows evil to be, yet is NOT EVIL Nor Responsible for Sin... Man is. Welcome to the deep end of the pool.

Redeemed by Grace
Jun 30th 2009, 02:31 AM
Where do either of these passages teach that no one can seek God before he is born again.

Let me ask you a question, is every man born again?

John 1:5-9 ( KJV )
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Light is a metphor for understanding, according to John, Christ gives this understanding to every person who comes into the world so that they can be saved.

I do not believe in universal salvation, not even close....

Butch5
Jun 30th 2009, 03:46 AM
I do not believe in universal salvation, not even close....

OK, you have not answered my first question.

Where do either of these passages teach that no one can seek God before he is born again?

We agree then that there is no universal salvation. So if Jesus illuminates every man so that they can believe and be saved, they must be able to seek God without being born again.

watchinginawe
Jun 30th 2009, 04:05 AM
I don't count that as synergism at all... I see God working in a monergistic way, as I have stated many times over the years, that a man's salvation is for God, by God, of God, in God, through God and God alone, and adding because of God, least any man should boast. Well, it was your example that you kept challenging to be answered. So I figured you saw the food on the table as God 100% without the cooperation or will of man in any way to help put food on the table. I just wanted to see you state it without addressing the scripture I offered. So I suppose Paul was also just as one who beateth the air in commanding that one should not eat if he didn't work, because it would be God not being responsible for His 100% in your view, and wouldn't have anything to do with the man not working; the man simply complying with the master of the universe operating all things to the counsel of His will.
I thank God for who He is, and what He does in my life just as David does in Psalm 23... That sounds like boasting to me. You give God more credit than a sinner as me. So that...
And if 'man cooperates with God' as you say, not wanting to offend, but I find that almost sinful, for God needing man's cooperation at all for His will to be done positions man as God's equal.You lowly and humble person. Much humbler than I. Me, boasting to the brink of sin, thinking to seek and perform and cooperate with God's will, as if I could do anything contrary to His will. For me to think to be able to perform God's will, or not. And yet the consequence of what you have already stated is that my response and belief and manner of doctrine is not my own, but God's.
No man comes to God on His own, God always reaches out to man. He is the author, the giver, the creator, the sustainer, and the finisher of all things, and for all things He created for Himself and His glory...I have no argument with that. God goes first. Always. Already has, already done. "For God so loved..." "But God commendeth His love toward us..." It is a done deal.
man does not and cannot 'cooperate' with God on his own, for sin keeps him in judgement. Christ came, and yet the world killed Him.... Nice cooperation, eh?

God chose a man in Abraham, a people as Israel, a nation, the church, and a people from every tongue and tribe.... all by qualification that God set as the bar, and not as any man qualified by any heritage, work or wisdom. As was quoted earlier and either over looked or dismissed, that it's God who does the choosing, it's God who has predestined and foreordained, and it's God who opens the eyes and the hearts of those who believe....Well the text is full of warnings and things to heed regarding one believing and not believing and one doing and not doing. I'm not sure what to make of the whole of the Bible or the Gospel in the context that you make this all out to be. If all is by predestination and foreordination and by the force of His will, then what is done is done and it is pleasing to God. There isn't much we are going to settle in this thread and I am void of understanding on why you might think it possible to persuade anyone in this thread of your doctrine.
Proverbs 16:9 Man plans his ways, but the Lord directs His path.... Not Synergism. Pure Monergism with a twist; man thinks it's all himself, when in reality, God controls all things and even allows evil to be, yet is NOT EVIL Nor Responsible for Sin... Man is. Welcome to the deep end of the pool.You have a wrong view in my opinion. Synergism isn't "man thinks it's all himself". You're just making that up. Your view constrains man to being a final control element of God. God's will is therefore not valueable to know or necessary to be declared. That makes everything that man does according to the will of God and thus not sinful except by arbitrary label. It really is this simple: Can man perform (or not) the will of God? Or is man always performing the will of God? You can whip up smoke and call it the deep end of the pool, but that deep end is simply where your doctrine doesn't meet with the example and purpose of scripture IMO.

Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Now I don't know why God wrote it like that. Did God really wait to see if Moses was going to turn aside? Did God really wait to see if Abraham was intent on slaying Isaac? Did Jacob really wrestle with God and receive a blessing and a new name? Did God really wait to see if Israel would obey His commandments and serve Him? Did God really mean it when He said through Samuel that He would have established Saul's kingdom over Israel forever? I'm not going to quote the whole Bible here. Your view does not reconcile with how God portrays Himself and His interaction and expectation of man in the Bible.

All that being said, I enjoy discussing this with you as always. I am glad you are here and spend the time discussing these things and offering your insight. I disagree with your understanding and application of the will of God, but I respect your viewpoint.

God Bless!

Sirus
Jun 30th 2009, 04:18 AM
No... True faith is God-breathed, and that is what Paul states in Ephesians 2:8... look at the words, what is the it?saved is the it and there is only one kind of faith
I do agree faith is God breathed.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
That's what I've been saying. We are created with faith to have faith. ;)
It's is one of the most natural responses of man.

Firstfruits
Jun 30th 2009, 08:04 AM
So I'll take your response to the question as one who doesn't give God credit for the food on the table, or the work that brings the food, or anything that you have, for that's your work. So God leaves man alone and hopes that some will find Him.

Gottcha ;)

You missed my reply.

Originally Posted by Redeemed by Grace http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2118034#post2118034)
You're stuck on the word force... Why?


Can you not give the credit and glory to God for saving you from eternal damnation?

God has all the credit, but he says that we must believe on his son Jesus in order for us to be saved.

We must believe.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jun 30th 2009, 08:11 AM
So I'll take your response to the question as one who doesn't give God credit for the food on the table, or the work that brings the food, or anything that you have, for that's your work. So God leaves man alone and hopes that some will find Him.

Gottcha ;)

I take it from your response that you do not know what the work of God is, if however you do then what is it?

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2009, 03:02 AM
Scripture says,

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV )
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Christ hope for? What has Christ not seen?
As the man Christ Jesus, the Son of man? You know the answer to that don't you? Since there was a time he didn't 'know' to choose the good over the evil, there was a time he didn't 'know' the unseen and hoped for, right? Right? C'mon now!!!! Was he 100% man and 100% God, or was he just God?!?So you think there was a time when Christ did not know why He was here? Could you please elaborate on this from a Scriptural standpoint?Sorry. I forgot about this and was reminded today.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Butch5
Jul 2nd 2009, 03:54 AM
Sorry. I forgot about this and was reminded today.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


I know the Scripture, I wanted you to elaborate on your understanding of it from a Scriptural standpoint. In other words, how did Christ go from knowing all that he did, to not knowing, to knowing all that He did again.

Sirus
Jul 2nd 2009, 04:05 AM
He did it through relationship as was intended for Adam. Adam, the first man, failed. Jesus, just the second man, did not. Hence, man was reconciled to God by one man. The Son of man, the man Christ Jesus.

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:25 PM
I take it from your response that you do not know what the work of God is, if however you do then what is it?

Firstfruits

All the good that happens is from God, and the bad is from sin. So applied, all the good I do is not me, but He who is in me... and the things I do that I shouldn't - are of my selfish heart in struggle...

So when I respond in Love, I've submit to His Spirit within me and it's He who eminates from me. If I respond in anger, it's my selfishness that 'wins' the moment....

Probably not the definition you wanted to see as the work of God, but this is how I see it throughout His word.


As a basis, I'd start with...

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


For His glory...


RbG

Firstfruits
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:30 PM
All the good that happens is from God, and the bad is from sin. So applied, all the good I do is not me, but He who is in me... and the things I do that I shouldn't - are of my selfish heart in struggle...

So when I respond in Love, I've submit to His Spirit within me and it's He who eminates from me. If I respond in anger, it's my selfishness that 'wins' the moment....

Probably not the definition you wanted to see as the work of God, but this is how I see it throughout His word.


As a basis, I'd start with...

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


For His glory...


RbG

No disagreement there RBG,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jul 2nd 2009, 06:54 PM
He did it through relationship as was intended for Adam. Adam, the first man, failed. Jesus, just the second man, did not. Hence, man was reconciled to God by one man. The Son of man, the man Christ Jesus.

I fail to see how this answers the question.

Beckrl
Jul 3rd 2009, 01:52 AM
This is how I understand those opening scriptures.(enduring unto the end, shall be saved)

Daniel 12:10


Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Daniel 12:12


Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


The time of Daniel's great trouble in which Jesus spoke of in Matthew. That those should flee unto the mountains. Enduring unto the end of this great time of trouble.

We also see in Revelation in that many will be killed if they do not worship the image of the beast.

Revelation 13:15


And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Then also many will fall away at this time, one reason maybe because of this time of trouble and the thought of dying if they don't worship the image.

There are many parallels with those that endures to the end, shall be saved. Chapter 12 of Revelation tells of a woman that feld into the wilderness and she is feed by God. This is seen as the children of God that flee into the mountains as Jesus had fortold them.

Sirus
Jul 3rd 2009, 03:48 AM
I fail to see how this answers the question.Then either you don't know what you asked or you fail to see how it was done through 'relationship'. Maybe you should rephrase the question?

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 3rd 2009, 01:48 PM
This is how I understand those opening scriptures.(enduring unto the end, shall be saved)

Daniel 12:10


Daniel 12:12


The time of Daniel's great trouble in which Jesus spoke of in Matthew. That those should flee unto the mountains. Enduring unto the end of this great time of trouble.

We also see in Revelation in that many will be killed if they do not worship the image of the beast.

Revelation 13:15


Then also many will fall away at this time, one reason maybe because of this time of trouble and the thought of dying if they don't worship the image.

There are many parallels with those that endures to the end, shall be saved. Chapter 12 of Revelation tells of a woman that feld into the wilderness and she is feed by God. This is seen as the children of God that flee into the mountains as Jesus had fortold them.

I think you are heading down the right path... Amen.

Firstfruits
Jul 3rd 2009, 01:56 PM
I think you are heading down the right path... Amen.

So does that not apply to all that belong to Christ?

2 Tim 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Rom 8:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Beckrl
Jul 3rd 2009, 02:39 PM
So does that not apply to all that belong to Christ?

2 Tim 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Rom 8:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi,Firstfruits
If I may answer that question, I do think it relates to all, Christ tells us to count the cost, But all so as it maybe some will endure tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword much more that others. Compare our time today from Nero's or the Crusades.

Christ spoke of this time of trouble that will come upon Judaea that the old testament also prophecied about, the time of tribulation will be like no other, and never will be again.

Matthew 24


For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Here in verse 22 it speaks of no flesh will be saved if not shortnened even the elected of God. That would include those that undestood and had fleed to the mountains. Note in verse 24 about if it were possible deceiving even the elect.



For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect

Firstfruits
Jul 3rd 2009, 02:42 PM
Hi,Firstfruits
If I may answer that question, I do think it relates to all, Christ tells us to count the cost, But all so as it maybe some will endure tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword much more that others. Compare our time today from Nero's or the Crusades.

Christ spoke of this time of trouble that will come upon Judaea that the old testament also prophecied about, the time of tribulation will be like no other, and never will be again.

Matthew 24


Here in verse 22 it speaks of no flesh will be saved if not shortnened even the elected of God. That would include those that undestood and had fleed to the mountains. Note in verse 24 about if it were possible deceiving even the elect.

Thanks Beckrl,

Your imput is most welcome, as are you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 3rd 2009, 08:02 PM
Hi,Firstfruits
If I may answer that question, I do think it relates to all, Christ tells us to count the cost, But all so as it maybe some will endure tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword much more that others. Compare our time today from Nero's or the Crusades.

Christ spoke of this time of trouble that will come upon Judaea that the old testament also prophecied about, the time of tribulation will be like no other, and never will be again.

Matthew 24


Here in verse 22 it speaks of no flesh will be saved if not shortnened even the elected of God. That would include those that undestood and had fleed to the mountains. Note in verse 24 about if it were possible deceiving even the elect.

Again, good post.... for I too - see that the OP question is specifically fitting to the last days...

And if I were not mistaken, by just 2 postings from you, I'd think your were suggesting that the Church will not be raptured before the 70th week begins, that God will allow for faith to be tested by Satan and the Antichrist, that the church will still be around when the 70th week begins, that the 1st 5 seals will be allowed to test for the elect - that many will die or worse, many will turn away from Christ.... showing their true colors of faith.... either God-breathed or man-breathed [that is - faith], and at the 6th seal, the moon, the sun and the starts will darken and all of the elect who have survived will be taken in the air while God seals the 144K and then the 7th seal brings silence in heaven for about 1/2 hour and thus the beginning of God's wrath......... and if so, would say - nice understanding and hermeneutics of the word! :)

Beckrl
Jul 3rd 2009, 11:21 PM
Again, good post.... for I too - see that the OP question is specifically fitting to the last days...

And if I were not mistaken, by just 2 postings from you, I'd think your were suggesting that the Church will not be raptured before the 70th week begins, that God will allow for faith to be tested by Satan and the Antichrist, that the church will still be around when the 70th week begins, that the 1st 5 seals will be allowed to test for the elect - that many will die or worse, many will turn away from Christ.... showing their true colors of faith.... either God-breathed or man-breathed [that is - faith], and at the 6th seal, the moon, the sun and the starts will darken and all of the elect who have survived will be taken in the air while God seals the 144K and then the 7th seal brings silence in heaven for about 1/2 hour and thus the beginning of God's wrath......... and if so, would say - nice understanding and hermeneutics of the word! :)

Redeemed by Grace
Thanks, and yes that is my understanding. I would have to say that I have not always held that prospective. It is though study.:)

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 4th 2009, 01:16 AM
Redeemed by Grace
Thanks, and yes that is my understanding. I would have to say that I have not always held that prospective. It is though study.:)

Amen... .

Firstfruits
Jul 4th 2009, 02:51 PM
Amen... .

Let us not forget that all that are in Christ shall suffer persecution, not only in the last days;

2 Tim 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jul 5th 2009, 12:55 PM
Then either you don't know what you asked or you fail to see how it was done through 'relationship'. Maybe you should rephrase the question?

You implied that Christ did not know as a child. I simply asked you to elaborate on the passage from Isaiah that you posted. How did Christ go from knowing all that he knew before the incarnation to not knowing, to again knowing all that He knew at the cross? What does relationship have to do with this question?

Sirus
Jul 5th 2009, 04:29 PM
I answered that already. Twice. Relationship is how. How do we grow in the Lord's knowledge? Is it just given equally to all? Why then do we have so many different pov's?

Butch5
Jul 5th 2009, 07:31 PM
I answered that already. Twice. Relationship is how. How do we grow in the Lord's knowledge? Is it just given equally to all? Why then do we have so many different pov's?

How did He go from knowing most everythng to know nothing?

Sirus
Jul 5th 2009, 09:10 PM
I didn't say he knew nothing. We are born with the knowledge of God -law of conscience.
He became a man, 100%, flesh, just like us.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2009, 01:47 PM
I didn't say he knew nothing. We are born with the knowledge of God -law of conscience.
He became a man, 100%, flesh, just like us.

Just forget it,

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 07:56 PM
If no man can endure or keep the works of Christ until he comes are we not all in danger of going to the lake of fire, because if he comes and we are in the middle of sin is Jesus going to say say "Thats ok you are born again"

Rev 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

How shall we be rewarded?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jul 6th 2009, 11:49 PM
Just forget it,Oh, now you want to opt out? I answered your question, three times, two ways......
Relationship
Relationship
He became a man, 100%, flesh, just like us.

but ok, whatever, I can understand you not wanting to go down that road.

Sirus
Jul 6th 2009, 11:52 PM
If no man can endure or keep the works of Christ until he comes are we not all in danger of going to the lake of fire, because if he comes and we are in the middle of sin is Jesus going to say say "Thats ok you are born again"

Rev 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

How shall we be rewarded?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsWhat do you mean 'middle of sin'? A sin or not yet mature in Christ?

Why would all christians be in the middle of sin when he returns?

Butch5
Jul 7th 2009, 01:49 AM
Oh, now you want to opt out? I answered your question, three times, two ways......
Relationship
Relationship
He became a man, 100%, flesh, just like us.

but ok, whatever, I can understand you not wanting to go done that road.

Yeah, you answered it three times with the same answer and I said just forget it. The second time I asked should have told you that the amswer did not answer the question.

Sirus
Jul 7th 2009, 01:59 AM
Just because someones answer doesn't satisfy you doesn't mean they didn't answer. I gave you the two ways I see it happening. If you can't discuss them fine. If you have a better idea, post it. Just don't act like I try to dodge the question. The three answers have two aspects of one, not one. I listed them plainly for you.

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 08:12 AM
What do you mean 'middle of sin'? A sin or not yet mature in Christ?

Why would all christians be in the middle of sin when he returns?

Are you saying that is is possible to live without sin until Jesus returns? If Jesus returns and we are found wanting what will be our reward? Can we say " I am new in Christ and did not know"

We cannot plead ignorance.

1 Pet 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jul 7th 2009, 10:24 AM
Just because someones answer doesn't satisfy you doesn't mean they didn't answer. I gave you the two ways I see it happening. If you can't discuss them fine. If you have a better idea, post it. Just don't act like I try to dodge the question. The three answers have two aspects of one, not one. I listed them plainly for you.

I didn't say you didn't answer. I said your answer didn't answer the question. Please explain how "relationship" answers the question, how did Christ go from knowing all that He knew when He created everything to knowing nothing when He took on flesh? Did He unlearn things as His relatioship with the Father grew???

Sirus
Jul 8th 2009, 01:28 AM
Are you saying that is is possible to live without sin until Jesus returns? If Jesus returns and we are found wanting what will be our reward? Can we say " I am new in Christ and did not know"

We cannot plead ignorance.

1 Pet 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

God bless you!

FirstfruitsAll believers are without sin, in Christ. Justification.

Sirus
Jul 8th 2009, 01:38 AM
I didn't say you didn't answer. I said your answer didn't answer the question. Please explain how "relationship" answers the question, how did Christ go from knowing all that He knew when He created everything to knowing nothing when He took on flesh? Did He unlearn things as His relatioship with the Father grew???One more time....
I did not say He knew nothing. Why do you keep saying that?
He became a man.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Phi 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
He submitted Himself to the will of the Father.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Firstfruits
Jul 8th 2009, 08:08 AM
All believers are without sin, in Christ. Justification.

With the understanding that we were all unrighteous did we not have to confess and believe the word of God before we were made righteous or without sin?

Rom 10:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eph 5:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Is darkness sin, and light righteousness?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jul 9th 2009, 01:36 AM
Of course, but you are talking about believers not sinners, right? I thought you were. If not, I misunderstood and apologize.

Butch5
Jul 9th 2009, 02:09 AM
One more time....
I did not say He knew nothing. Why do you keep saying that?
He became a man.

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Phi 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
He submitted Himself to the will of the Father.

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


That doesn't answer the question, how did Christ not know. You said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch5 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2116931#post2116931)
Scripture says,

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV )
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Christ hope for? What has Christ not seen? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirus
As the man Christ Jesus, the Son of man? You know the answer to that don't you? Since there was a time he didn't 'know' to choose the good over the evil, there was a time he didn't 'know' the unseen and hoped for, right? Right? C'mon now!!!! Was he 100% man and 100% God, or was he just God?!?

Burch---So you think there was a time when Christ did not know why He was here? Could you please elaborate on this from a Scriptural standpoint?


Sirus---Sorry. I forgot about this and was reminded today.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Again, before taking on flesh, Christ knew good from evil. How did he lose this knowledge when He took on flesh?

I can't make it any clearer that this.

Sirus
Jul 9th 2009, 03:21 AM
he didn't 'know' to choose
not
he didn't 'know'

Firstfruits
Jul 9th 2009, 08:04 AM
Of course, but you are talking about believers not sinners, right? I thought you were. If not, I misunderstood and apologize.

Yes you are correct.

Is it right that we who have left the darkness (sin), and come into the light (righteousness), to dable as such in darkness. Note, I am not saying it is not done, what I am asking is, is it right in the sight of God?

Eph 5:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Does this show endurance if we do so?

What is the difference between darkness and light?

God bless you!

Firstfruits