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FaithfulSheep
Jun 29th 2009, 02:02 AM
I have went round and round with this scripture.

1 John 5:16-17

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

What is meant by "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death?" What does this passage mean? I have read the verses in several versions, but am still at a loss for understanding.

Keturah
Jun 29th 2009, 02:22 AM
I believe it means we can continue in a Sin, so long that God will allow us to be taken out.So that the soul might be saved, as the Man who had his Fathers wife in 1Corinthians 5:5

To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

We all sin, but as one who belongs to the Lord, we should not desire to "stay in that sin," and continue to practice it, but repent, and renew fellowship.
This sin, does not lead to physical death because we turn from it and ask forgiveness.
I believe this is what it is saying. :)

yaza
Jun 29th 2009, 03:15 AM
I have went round and round with this scripture.

1 John 5:16-17

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

What is meant by "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death?" What does this passage mean? I have read the verses in several versions, but am still at a loss for understanding.
the only sin leading to death is the sin of unbelief,all other sins have been forgiven but the sin of unbelief and there is no sacrifice left for this one. hope this helps. yaza

Sirus
Jun 29th 2009, 03:27 AM
the only sin leading to death is the sin of unbelief,all other sins have been forgiven but the sin of unbelief and there is no sacrifice left for this one. hope this helps. yazaYes but a sin like in 1Corinthians 5:5 that even brings shame to Gentiles certainly must not be named among christians and is truly what 'shall not carry the name of the Lord in vain' (Exo 20:7) is all about. Say you are a believer and act like a heathen. Notice it is not forgivable ;) . It IS unbelief at it's core, from the law of conscience to the law of the Spirit of life and liberty "in Christ" Jesus. It is a denial of the cross that crucified the body of sin so that sin shall not have dominion over us.

Is sin unto death eternal or physical? Is it not condemnation as in physical death? Like in Corinth many were dying and coming together unto condemnation. Look at the context!

Vhayes
Jun 29th 2009, 03:55 AM
If a brother or a sister is having an issue with sin and you see the same thing pop up over and over again in their lives, you should most assuredly pray about it.

If you see a brother or a sister who is living way outside the bounds of Christianity and they are bringing open shame on the name of Christ after having been gently and consistently shown by God that what they are doing is sinful, then you no longer pray for that person - you pray that the Lord's will be done, whatever that may be. I personally think it means the person is about to get the butt whoopin' of their lives and if that doesn't work, they will quite literally be taken totally out of this current world.

I've only encountered this twice (and maybe three times) in all my years as a Christian. You will know if and when this situation comes up.

Hope that helps a bit -
V

yaza
Jun 30th 2009, 02:59 AM
Yes but a sin like in 1Corinthians 5:5 that even brings shame to Gentiles certainly must not be named among christians and is truly what 'shall not carry the name of the Lord in vain' (Exo 20:7) is all about. Say you are a believer and act like a heathen. Notice it is not forgivable ;) . It IS unbelief at it's core, from the law of conscience to the law of the Spirit of life and liberty "in Christ" Jesus. It is a denial of the cross that crucified the body of sin so that sin shall not have dominion over us.

Is sin unto death eternal or physical? Is it not condemnation as in physical death? Like in Corinth many were dying and coming together unto condemnation. Look at the context!
all sins have been forgiven but the sin of unbelief, if you are a believer and act like a heathen your sins are already forgiven past present future. if god would count our sins against us heaven would not be possible. he made a promise to only judge us on the basis of his son only. all things are permissable but not all things are profitable. god will not leave us even if we sin. god bless yaza

Bible2
Jun 30th 2009, 04:31 AM
FaithfulSheep posted in message #1 of this thread:

What is meant by "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to
death?"


Greetings.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he
shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.
There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it"
(1 John 5:16). A sin of a brother which is not unto death is a sin
which those who are already Christians commit, but then repent from
(Revelation 3:19), turn from (1 Corinthians 9:27), and confess to God
(1 John 1:9), thereby putting that sin into the past, where it can be
forgiven, for Jesus' sacrifice only remits sins that are in the past
(Romans 3:25). A sin of a brother which is unto death is a sin which
those who are already Christians commit, but then do not repent
from (Revelation 2:21-23), do not turn from (Hebrews 10:26-27),
and do not confess to God (1 John 1:8), thereby keeping that sin
in the present (where it cannot be forgiven) all the way until their
physical death. There is no use praying for Christians who have died
in such a sin: "I do not say that he shall pray for it" (1 John 5:16),
for the salvation of those Christians is irrevocably lost (Romans 8:13,
Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 13:3, Hebrews 10:26-27).

Lefty
Jun 30th 2009, 06:08 AM
If a brother or a sister is having an issue with sin and you see the same thing pop up over and over again in their lives, you should most assuredly pray about it.

If you see a brother or a sister who is living way outside the bounds of Christianity and they are bringing open shame on the name of Christ after having been gently and consistently shown by God that what they are doing is sinful, then you no longer pray for that person - you pray that the Lord's will be done, whatever that may be. I personally think it means the person is about to get the butt whoopin' of their lives and if that doesn't work, they will quite literally be taken totally out of this current world.

I've only encountered this twice (and maybe three times) in all my years as a Christian. You will know if and when this situation comes up.

Hope that helps a bit -
V

That's my understanding as well.

God removing Moses early in physical death before he would have crossed the Jordan because of his sin at the rock, is one example of a sin that led to death. Ananias and Sapphira are others. God only disciplines those he loves.(Heb. 12:6)

Firstfruits
Jun 30th 2009, 09:09 AM
I have went round and round with this scripture.

1 John 5:16-17

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

What is meant by "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death?" What does this passage mean? I have read the verses in several versions, but am still at a loss for understanding.

According to Jesus there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven and is therefore the sin that is unto death.

Mt 12:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mt 12:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Clydson
Jun 30th 2009, 01:27 PM
I have went round and round with this scripture.

1 John 5:16-17

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

What is meant by "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death?" What does this passage mean? I have read the verses in several versions, but am still at a loss for understanding.
Greetings Sheep.

I believe basically the sin unto death is any sin lacking repentance. And the sin not unto death is any sin repented of.

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Evidently a faithful son of God can stumble from time to time, but he is washed by the blood of Christ making him whole. Verse nine teaches that we are responsible for acknowledging our own sins, whereby Christ renders us righteous in God's eye. Without repentance, the faithful stumbling son would not be cleansed, resulting in sin leading to death. Another's prayer cannot, of its own accord, override or forgive the unrepentant sin.

Jake

Dani H
Jun 30th 2009, 01:35 PM
The Message says this:

16-17For instance, if we see a Christian believer sinning (clearly I'm not talking about those who make a practice of sin in a way that is "fatal," leading to eternal death), we ask for God's help and he gladly gives it, gives life to the sinner whose sin is not fatal. There is such a thing as a fatal sin, and I'm not urging you to pray about that. Everything we do wrong is sin, but not all sin is fatal.

I personally think there are some things that cause us to die early. For example, dishonoring our parents (the commandment with promise of length and quality of life linked to the treatment of our parents). Paul mentions believers dying because they were approaching the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner. Ananias and Sapphira deceiving on purpuse, not only the people, but actually trying to lie to God about money (you know you're in pretty deep self-deception when you try and lie to God).

I don't think physical death is a punishment for us. It's just another tool of discipline God uses when we're believers. And as Creator of life, He well has that right. I'd rather Him take me out than allow me to completely walk away from Him and be lost forever (should it ever come to that).

Fellow_Servent
Jun 30th 2009, 09:11 PM
Well, I'll try to keep this short. There are many kinds of sins, such as sins against ones body, sins against fellow christians, sins against Christ and God, and even a sin against the Holy Spirt that is unforgivable! Now as with our laws today different sins carry different penalty's. There are sins that are not unto the death of the spirt or soul, and others that will cause your spirt and soul to perish! For example: as Christians we are not to eat any pork at all. ( Deut 14:8 ) But eating pork will not cause your spirt or soul to perish. It will make you sick, in the long run, ( studies have shown that we in the USA could eliminate 85 % of all cancer and 100 % of adult acquired diabetes just by NOT eating pork! ) All John is saying is that for these kinds of sins, one can pray an intercessory prayer for that person ( even if that person has passed on in death ) that has sin of this type, and because of our love and commitment to Christ the sin will be forgiven this person. But not to pray intercessory prayers for a murder or rapist, ect.. Prayers for these sins will go unheard!!


I Pray and hope that this helps you! May God Bless You and keep you safe.

If you need any other references, or explanation Please let me know.

Keturah
Jun 30th 2009, 10:54 PM
Remember also we are talking about two different kinds of death .
Physical death, and Spiritual death.

A Christian can continue in a sin unto physical death, that the soul might be saved.
Then there is the unforgivable sin, and that is total rejection of the way, the truth, and the life in Jesus Christ our Lord.....Spiritual death.

Lars777
Jul 1st 2009, 12:02 AM
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal. I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. (1 John 5:16-17)



Now do not let curiosity over this mortal sin (or rather, much better, "the sin unto death"), keep you from seeing the relationship of these verses to what he has just said. These two verses are an illustration of a request that is in the will of God, as contrasted with one that is not in the will of God.

That is what he has just been talking about, urging us to pray only concerning that which is the will of God. He then gives us these two illustrations, one which is in the will of God, one which is not. The "sin which is not unto death" is the kind which permits a concerned brother to ask God for deliverance from that sin for an erring brother and the will of God is to grant that request.

The "sin which is unto death" is the kind to which God has already determined upon a certain response and no prayer is going to change his mind. Therefore, it is useless to pray. That is why John gives this illustration.

Now let us come to the moot question, what is this sin unto death? There are three major explanations that exist of this passage and particularly of this phrase, "the sin unto death." The first view regards it as some specific sin which is so terrible as to be unforgivable, as suicide, murder, idolatry, even adultery.

This view (which has been held by many through the Christian centuries) early gave rise to the Catholic distinctions between mortal and venial sins. This is, perhaps, why the RSV translates this "sin which is mortal" and "sin which is not mortal." There is absolutely no question but what that translation is wrong.

It should never be translated "mortal sin" for it has nothing to do with the question of salvation. There is no warrant in Scripture whatsoever for distinguishing between mortal and venial sins; i.e., sins which can be forgiven (venial), and those sins which can never be forgiven (mortal). Scripture makes no such distinctions.

As a matter of fact, this sin is not any one specific sin. The Greek makes very clear here that this is simply sin in general. It is not a sin which is unto death; it is simply sin which is unto death. Any specific sin can become sin unto death. Therefore, it is not a specific kind of sin that is in view and that interpretation simply cannot stand.

There is a second view which links this with the words of Jesus concerning the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Remember that on one occasion he warned that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The death which is mentioned in this passage in First John is taken to mean spiritual death and is then associated with the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This is, of course, a description of what we generally call apostasy; i.e., an apostate is someone who has made a profession of faith in Christ but begins to drift away and ultimately comes to the place where he actually blasphemes the name of the Lord Jesus and the things of Christian faith, denying them and turning his back upon them to go into a completely apostate state.

Hebrews 6 and Hebrews10 and other passages make clear that such an apostate is in a terrible situation. He has committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the flagrant rejection of the testimony of the Holy Spirit to Jesus Christ, and that is unpardonable.

But it is equally clear that kind of sin can never be committed by a genuine born-again Christian. It is only committed by those who have made a profession of faith but have never entered into new birth in Jesus Christ. But the word here is "if any one sees his brother committing what is not a sin unto death," and the word, brother, is reserved for other Christians.

It is so defined in Chapter 5, Verse 1, of this very letter. John says that "every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the Father loves the child." That is, such a one is my brother; he, like me, is a member of the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, it seems likely that the sin unto death mentioned here is limited to Christians, and cannot refer to apostates.

That brings us to the third view, which I believe is the correct one, which views death here as physical death: "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a sin unto [physical] death, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not unto [physical] death. There is sin which is unto [physical] death." There is sin which a Christian can commit which will result in God taking him home in physical death.

John goes on to say, "I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not unto [physical] death."

Now there are certain examples of this "sin unto death" given in Scripture which, if one studies them through carefully, will reveal the element that turns ordinary sin into sin which is unto death. "All wrongdoing is sin," says John. All unrighteousness is sin, let us not misunderstand that, but there is sin which has a certain element about it, a certain characteristic which will result in physical death, physical judgment. Let us look at some of the instances of this in Scripture.

Moses, for instance, committed a sin unto death when he was commanded of God to speak to the rock in the wilderness and water would come forth to meet the needs of the children of Israel ( Numbers 20:8). Previously he had been commanded to strike a rock and the water would come out, and when he did the water did come out. But on a second occasion he was told to speak to the rock.

This change was important because the rock was a type of Christ and to strike it was a picture of the judgment of the cross. Now the cross is the way by which the refreshing water of grace first comes into our life as Christians, but after we have become Christians we are not to strike the rock (crucify Christ again) but to speak to it.

We are to simply ask of him and out of the Rock will come flowing the rivers of living water we need. But Moses broke the significance of that type when in his anger, he struck the rock twice. Though God, in grace, allowed the water to come flowing out, he said to him, "Because you have disobeyed me and not sanctified me in the eyes of the people, you will not be allowed to lead these people into the land of promise," Numbers 20:12).

Later on, when they came to the borders of the land, Moses said to God in effect, "Lord, allow me to go on in. Forgive this, and let me go on in" Deuteronomy 3:24-25), and the Lord said to him, "Speak no more to me about this matter" Deuteronomy 3:26), i.e., do not pray about this (just as John said, "I do not say you should pray about that"), "but get up to the mountain and I will let you see the land, but that is as far as you can go," Deuteronomy 3:27). Moses had committed a sin unto death. In his case it did not occur right away, but it occurred prematurely and before his work was really completed.

A little further on in the book of Joshua you find that Achan commits a sin unto death. As the children of Israel crossed the Jordan and surrounded Jericho they were told that when the city became theirs they were not to touch anything in it, they were not to take any of the possessions of the inhabitants of the city, or to covet anything, for it was all cursed of God.

But when the walls came tumbling down and they came into the city, one man among them, Achan, saw a beautiful garment and a wedge of gold, and he coveted these and buried them in the dirt beneath his tent. For this judgment came upon Israel.

In their next battle they met with utter and complete defeat. Searching out the camp, in obedience to the Word of God, Joshua found that it was Achan who did this. He was brought out with his whole family, and by command of God they were put to death. That was a sin unto death.

In the New Testament, in the fifth chapter of Acts, Ananias and his wife, Sapphira, pretended to a devotion that they did not really possess, and wanting a reputation in the eyes of other Christians, they lied about the money they received for certain land. As a result, they were immediately put to death by God when their lie became evident. They were taken out, one by one, and buried. They, too, had committed a sin unto death.

Also remember what the Apostle Paul said to the Corinthians about their conduct, saying, "Some of you are drunken, some are selfish, pushing your way in and eating before others, showing no concern for others, and above all not discerning the meaning of this table, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause, many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" ( 1 Corinthians 11:28-30), i.e., have died. Now what does this mean? It meant that certain ones had committed sin which was unto death.

But note that in all these examples it was not the same sin, by any means. It was simply sin which results in the judgment of physical death. What then, is the element that turns ordinary sin into this kind of sin? I think if you look at these examples together you will see what it is. It is the element of wanton, presumptuous action in the face of clear knowledge that it is wrong. It is willfulness, a willful presumption to pursue something when you know God has said it is wrong. This is sin unto death, and the result is physical judgment.

Now it does not always come suddenly. It did with Ananias and Sapphira, it did with Achan, but it did not with Moses, and it did not with the Corinthians. With them it came in stages: first it was weakness, then sickliness, and finally death. Perhaps much of the physical weakness that is apparent among Christians today may arise from this very cause.

Not all physical weakness comes from this, not all premature deaths arise from this, but some very likely do. It is persistence in a determined course of action when you know that God has said it is wrong, that creates sin unto death.

Now let us look again at what John has said. "If any one sees his brother committing sin which is not unto death," i.e., sin which arises largely out of ignorance, sin where someone is simply doing something which they may have a vague idea is wrong, but they have no understanding of the implications of it, no awareness of how bad it is.

This is the kind of sin we older people often see manifest among the younger. Young Christians often stumble into things they are not aware of, they do not understand what they are getting into, they do not realize the danger. Then, if you see your brother committing that kind of a sin, ask of God, and God will give life for those whose sin is not unto death. God will withhold the judgment of physical weakness and grant opportunity for the renewal of life.

You can see that in the Old Testament in the case of King Hezekiah. Remember that in a very unwise moment he allowed the King of Babylon to send visitors into his palace to investigate all that was going on, and to see the riches of the palace. The prophet Isaiah warned Hezekiah that these men only wanted to see how much money he had and whether it was worth sending an army to take it or not. He said, "You have sold yourself into the hands of the Babylonians." As a result of that, King Hezekiah received a sentence of death from God.

God told him to prepare himself, to get everything ready because he was going to die. Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed, beseeching the Lord. As a result of that prayer of confession and repentance, God stopped the prophet Isaiah as he was going out the door, having delivered the sentence of death and said, "Go back to the King.

I have granted him fifteen more years of life," Isaiah 38:5). As a sign that it would happen, the sun dial in the garden went backward ten degrees. That is an example of God granting life for those who do not commit a sin which is unto death. Repentance reverses the judgment. Those who willfully determine to go on in a way that is wrong commit sin which is unto death, and when they do God says do not pray for that.

FaithfulSheep
Jul 1st 2009, 02:51 AM
I am still here and listening... just taking this all in and pondering. :) :hug:

Bible2
Jul 1st 2009, 05:27 AM
Keturah posted in message #13 of this thread:

Remember also we are talking about two different kinds of death .
Physical death, and Spiritual death.

A Christian can continue in a sin unto physical death


Greetings.

It's possible for a Christian to continue in a sin unto physical death
(1 Corinthians 11:29-30) and eternal death (Hebrews 10:26-27,
Luke 13:3).

Bible2
Jul 1st 2009, 05:28 AM
Lars777 posted in message #14 of this thread:

Hebrews 6 and Hebrews10 and other passages make clear that such
an apostate is in a terrible situation. He has committed blasphemy
against the Holy Spirit, the flagrant rejection of the testimony of the
Holy Spirit to Jesus Christ, and that is unpardonable.

But it is equally clear that kind of sin can never be committed by a
genuine born-again Christian.


Greetings.

Hebrews 10:26-29 makes clear that genuine born-again Christians,
who had been sanctified (Hebrews 10:29) by the blood of Jesus,
can subsequently lose their salvation by continuing in any sin
without repentance (Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:19-21). Just as
Hebrews 6:4-8 makes clear that genuine born-again Christians,
who had been made partakers of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4),
can subsequently lose their salvation by falling away
(2 Timothy 2:12, Luke 8:13).

BroRog
Jul 1st 2009, 07:43 PM
"Death" in this instance is when a person stops believing Jesus, ceases to trust God, chucks the whole thing and walks away from the faith.

A sin leading not unto death is the continuous struggle we have as we battle those sins that seem to have a grip on our life. John suggests that as long as our brother or sister is still fighting, still believing in Jesus, and continues to love God, we can pray for our brother or sister with confidence that God will answer our prayer.

A sin leading unto death is the sin that says to the world, "I'm done with Jesus. I'm done with his people and his word. I'm on my own and don't care anything about the faith, eternal life, or anything related to God." John is saying to us, if things get that far he can't guarantee that God will answer our prayer. It doesn't mean we have to stop praying for them. But John says we can't expect to have that prayer answered in the affirmative.

Bible2
Jul 2nd 2009, 05:23 AM
BroRog posted in message #18 of this thread:

"Death" in this instance is when a person stops believing Jesus,
ceases to trust God, chucks the whole thing and walks away from
the faith.


Greetings.

A sin unto death committed by a Christian doesn't require formal
apostasy. It's possible for a Christian to remain in the faith while
continuing in any sin without repentance until he physically dies. If
he does that, he will lose his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-27, Romans
8:13, Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 13:3). There is no use praying for God
to forgive him after he is physically dead (1 John 5:16b).



BroRog posted in message #18 of this thread:

A sin leading not unto death is the continuous struggle we have as
we battle those sins that seem to have a grip on our life.


Amen. A sin not unto death is any sin which a Christian has sincerely
repented from (no matter how many times: cf. Matthew 18:21-22)
and confessed to God and been forgiven for by God (1 John 1:9),
any sin which a Christian is not presently continuing in without
repentance, but has turned from and put into the past, where it can
be forgiven (Romans 3:25b).



BroRog posted in message #18 of this thread:

John suggests that as long as our brother or sister is still fighting,
still believing in Jesus, and continues to love God, we can pray for
our brother or sister with confidence that God will answer our prayer.


Amen. Christians can pray for fellow Christians (and for themselves)
when they are struggling with a besetting sin, that Jesus and the
Holy Spirit would give them the power to be completely freed from
that sin (John 8:34-36, 1 John 3:6-10, Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:13b).

BroRog
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:50 PM
A sin unto death committed by a Christian doesn't require formal
apostasy. It's possible for a Christian to remain in the faith while
continuing in any sin without repentance until he physically dies.

In the context of 1John5, apostasy is the death he is talking about.

Bible2
Jul 3rd 2009, 07:43 AM
BroRog posted in message #20 of this thread:

In the context of 1John5, apostasy is the death he is talking about.


Greetings.

Actually, note that nothing in the context of 1 John 5:16 requires
that apostasy is the death John is talking about. John could be
talking about physical death. A sin unto physical death could be any
sin (1 John 5:17-19) commited by a Christian without repentance
until physical death. There's no use praying for such a sin (1 John
5:16b), because it results in the irrevocable loss of salvation
(Hebrews 10:26-27, Romans 8:13a, Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 13:3).

BroRog
Jul 3rd 2009, 02:55 PM
Greetings.

Actually, note that nothing in the context of 1 John 5:16 requires
that apostasy is the death John is talking about. John could be
talking about physical death. A sin unto physical death could be any
sin (1 John 5:17-19) commited by a Christian without repentance
until physical death. There's no use praying for such a sin (1 John
5:16b), because it results in the irrevocable loss of salvation
(Hebrews 10:26-27, Romans 8:13a, Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 13:3).

If a person refuses to repent, they have left the faith.

everyday_christian
Jul 4th 2009, 03:45 AM
I have went round and round with this scripture.

1 John 5:16-17

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

What is meant by "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death?" What does this passage mean? I have read the verses in several versions, but am still at a loss for understanding.


6If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.






The key here is verse 18. You should take situations as they come and live by the Spirit.


Look at the Gospels, Jesus said and did many things, and only later, after they received the Holy Spirit did many of the Scriptures come to mind.


You should trust in the Holy Spirit to bring to remembrance Scripture as you need it: he did not write this to give people rules of 'what to do and what not to do'. We live by grace through the Holy Spirit working in us naturally, fighting against all evil.


If there are matters you feel you should pray about, by the Holy Spirit, led by the Holy Spirit: then for those matters pray.



We do not pray nor are led to pray in prayers which bring forth fruit by means of man.

Keturah
Jul 4th 2009, 04:02 AM
Yes but a sin like in 1Corinthians 5:5 that even brings shame to Gentiles certainly must not be named among christians and is truly what 'shall not carry the name of the Lord in vain' (Exo 20:7) is all about. Say you are a believer and act like a heathen. Notice it is not forgivable ;) . It IS unbelief at it's core, from the law of conscience to the law of the Spirit of life and liberty "in Christ" Jesus. It is a denial of the cross that crucified the body of sin so that sin shall not have dominion over us.

Is sin unto death eternal or physical? Is it not condemnation as in physical death? Like in Corinth many were dying and coming together unto condemnation. Look at the context!

If you were born again, and then practice sin again to the point of death, it is physical death......as the verse said, so that the soul might be saved.
Eternal life is eternal, but we may suffer loss of rewards, if we continue to sin willfully. :(

Bible2
Jul 4th 2009, 06:37 AM
BroRog posted in message #22 of this thread:

If a person refuses to repent, they have left the faith.


Greetings.

If someone who became a Christian subsequently sins and refuses to
repent, he may have left the faith (1 Timothy 4:1-2), or he may still
be in the faith yet have come under the spell of the false idea that
all of his present and future sins have already been forgiven by the
blood of Jesus and the Spirit of grace. So he could mistakenly think
that it doesn't matter if he repents or not, that he will still be saved
in the end. But if a Christian under such a false idea continues to sin
without repentance, without realizing it he is turning the grace of
God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), he is trampling on the blood of
Jesus and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29),
and so he will irrevocably lose his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29) if he
physically dies in unrepentant sin, so that there will be no use for
anyone to pray for his salvation after he is physically dead in his
unrepentant sin (1 John 5:16b). But if before he dies he comes to
the realization of the truth that the blood of Jesus and the Spirit of
grace only remits sins that are past (Romans 3:24-25), and so he
stops his present sin (1 Corinthians 9:27) and confesses it to God
(1 John 1:9) and makes no plans to ever do it again, thereby putting
his sin into the past where it can be forgiven, then he will be
forgiven, and he will keep his salvation if he dies in such a repentant
state.

Bible2
Jul 4th 2009, 06:38 AM
everyday_christian posted in message #23 of this thread:

You should take situations as they come and live by the Spirit.


Greetings.

Living by the Spirit must include living by every word of God in the
Bible (Matthew 4:4), for the entire Bible was inspired by the Spirit
(2 Peter 1:21; 2 Timothy 3:16). Christians won't sin if they actually
live by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16) including his Word (Psalms 119:11).



everyday_christian posted in message #23 of this thread:

Look at the Gospels, Jesus said and did many things, and only later,
after they received the Holy Spirit did many of the Scriptures come
to mind.


In the Gospels, cases like John 12:16 are referring only to Old
Testament prophecies regarding what would happen at Jesus' first
coming. Such cases are not referring to scriptures regarding what is
sin and what is not sin.



everyday_christian posted in message #23 of this thread:

You should trust in the Holy Spirit to bring to remembrance Scripture
as you need it:


The Holy Spirit can bring scriptures to the remembrance of Christians
as those Christians need them to know what to do and not to do in
order to behave perfectly (2 Timothy 3:16-17).



everyday_christian posted in message #23 of this thread:

he did not write this to give people rules of 'what to do and what
not to do'.


Jesus did give Christians rules of what to do and what not to do
(e.g. Matthew 5:23-7:27), and Christians must actually obey these
rules if they want to be saved in the end (Hebrews 5:9), and if they
want to truly know Jesus and God the Father presently (John
14:21-24), instead of floating off into a la-la land of their own
imagination (2 Timothy 4:3-4, John 8:31b).



everyday_christian posted in message #23 of this thread:

We live by grace through the Holy Spirit working in us naturally,
fighting against all evil.


Actually, Christians cannot always rely on the Holy Spirit continuing
to work in them just "naturally", for it is possible for Christians to
wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit's working in them
(1 Thessalonians 5:19) to where Christians wrongly start living in
unrepentant sin, living after the flesh instead of the Spirit. If
Christians do not repent from such living before they physically die
(1 John 5:16b), they will end up losing their salvation (Romans 8:13,
Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 13:3). And Christians never know when
they're going to die (James 4:14, Luke 12:20), so they need to
always remain in a present state of repentance (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Bible2
Jul 4th 2009, 06:40 AM
Keturah posted in message #24 of this thread:

If you were born again, and then practice sin again to the point of
death, it is physical death......as the verse said, so that the soul
might be saved.


Greetings.

The unrepentant Christian delivered to Satan in 1 Corinthians 5:5
wasn't delivered to physical death, but only to the punishment of
expulsion from any fellowship with the church (1 Corinthians 5:11-13,
cf. 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15). He subsequently came to repentance
and was restored to fellowship with the church (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).

If someone is born again, so that he is actually sanctified by the
blood of Jesus (Hebrews 10:29), and then he practices sin again
without repentance until he physically dies, it means his eternal
death (Hebrews 10:26-27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 13:3).



Keturah posted in message #24 of this thread:

Eternal life is eternal, but we may suffer loss of rewards, if we
continue to sin willfully.


Eternal life is eternal in itself, but it can still be lost, just as a
diamond someone possesses is basically eternal in itself, but it can
still be lost. If Christians continue to sin willfully without repentance
until their physical death, they will not only suffer loss of rewards,
but eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27). Only obedient Christians
will have eternal life in the end (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8,
Matthew 7:21), and will not have their names blotted out of the
book of life (Revelation 3:5).

BroRog
Jul 4th 2009, 07:37 PM
Greetings.

If someone who became a Christian subsequently sins and refuses to
repent, he may have left the faith (1 Timothy 4:1-2), or he may still
be in the faith yet have come under the spell of the false idea that
all of his present and future sins have already been forgiven by the
blood of Jesus and the Spirit of grace.

The idea that all our sins are forgiven is not a false idea.


So he could mistakenly think that it doesn't matter if he repents or not, that he will still be saved in the end.

When I said that a person who refuses to repent has left the faith, I wasn't talking about confessing sins, I was talking about an attitude of repentance. A person of faith doesn't have to confess each sin individually in order to have an attitude of repentance.

I can live my entire Christian life not ever confessing each sin individually, aloud or to God in prayer, but at the same time repudiate my sin, mourn over my brokenness, long to be fixed, long for the day of my salvation, know that Jesus paid the price for my sins, confess to others that I am a sinner, forgive the injustices that others inflict on me, and patiently endure the death and pain others bring my way.


But if a Christian under such a false idea continues to sin
without repentance, without realizing it he is turning the grace of
God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), he is trampling on the blood of
Jesus and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29),
and so he will irrevocably lose his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29) if he
physically dies in unrepentant sin, so that there will be no use for
anyone to pray for his salvation after he is physically dead in his
unrepentant sin (1 John 5:16b). But if before he dies he comes to
the realization of the truth that the blood of Jesus and the Spirit of
grace only remits sins that are past (Romans 3:24-25), and so he
stops his present sin (1 Corinthians 9:27) and confesses it to God
(1 John 1:9) and makes no plans to ever do it again, thereby putting
his sin into the past where it can be forgiven, then he will be
forgiven, and he will keep his salvation if he dies in such a repentant
state.

I just don't subscribe to the idea that the salvation status of a man can flip flop back and forth during his life. I don't find this to be a Biblical idea.

Equipped_4_Love
Jul 5th 2009, 02:31 AM
The "sin which is unto death" is the kind to which God has already determined upon a certain response and no prayer is going to change his mind. Therefore, it is useless to pray. That is why John gives this illustration.



WOW -- That was a really great answer, Lars, but I highlighted this part because I wanted to comment that this reminds me of the account of Jeremiah in the Old Testament, where God had determined to punish Israel, and God tells Jeremiah not to pray for Israel.

Could this be sort of the same situation?

Bible2
Jul 5th 2009, 07:04 AM
BroRog posted in message #28 of this thread:

The idea that all our sins are forgiven is not a false idea.


Greetings.

The idea that all the present sins and future sins of Christians are
forgiven is a false idea, for only the past sins of Christians are
forgiven (Romans 3:25).



BroRog posted in message #28 of this thread:

A person of faith doesn't have to confess each sin individually in
order to have an attitude of repentance.


A person of faith does need to confess his sins in order to be
forgiven for them (1 John 1:9). Just claiming to have an attitude of
repentance is not enough. A person of faith must also actually turn
from his present sins and make no plans to ever do them again, if he
wants to put them in the past where they can be forgiven. If he
keeps them in the present, doing nothing to turn from them and
planning to do them in the future, then he is not yet truly repentant,
but is only fooling himself (James 1:22). He is even headed for the
loss of salvation, if he does not truly repent (Hebrews 10:26-27,
Romans 8:13a, Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 13:3).



BroRog posted in message #28 of this thread:

I just don't subscribe to the idea that the salvation status of a man
can flip flop back and forth during his life. I don't find this to be a
Biblical idea.


The salvation status of a Christian can flip-flop back and forth during
his life, in the sense that if at any point he physically died in a state
of unrepentant sin, his salvation would be irrevocably lost, so that it
would do no good for anyone to pray for him after his death (1 John
5:16b). But if at any point he doesn't physically die in a state of
unrepentant sin, but regains a repentant state, then he can be
forgiven while he is still alive, and keep his salvation (1 John 5:16a).

Vhayes
Jul 5th 2009, 12:27 PM
The salvation status of a Christian can flip-flop back and forth during
his life, in the sense that if at any point he physically died in a state
of unrepentant sin, his salvation would be irrevocably lost, so that it
would do no good for anyone to pray for him after his death (1 John
5:16b). But if at any point he doesn't physically die in a state of
unrepentant sin, but regains a repentant state, then he can be
forgiven while he is still alive, and keep his salvation (1 John 5:16a).

Is salvation a gift?

Romans 11
29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

I Thessalonians 5
24 - Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

BroRog
Jul 5th 2009, 11:54 PM
Greetings.

The idea that all the present sins and future sins of Christians are
forgiven is a false idea, for only the past sins of Christians are
forgiven (Romans 3:25).



A person of faith does need to confess his sins in order to be
forgiven for them (1 John 1:9). Just claiming to have an attitude of
repentance is not enough. A person of faith must also actually turn
from his present sins and make no plans to ever do them again, if he
wants to put them in the past where they can be forgiven. If he
keeps them in the present, doing nothing to turn from them and
planning to do them in the future, then he is not yet truly repentant,
but is only fooling himself (James 1:22). He is even headed for the
loss of salvation, if he does not truly repent (Hebrews 10:26-27,
Romans 8:13a, Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 13:3).



The salvation status of a Christian can flip-flop back and forth during
his life, in the sense that if at any point he physically died in a state
of unrepentant sin, his salvation would be irrevocably lost, so that it
would do no good for anyone to pray for him after his death (1 John
5:16b). But if at any point he doesn't physically die in a state of
unrepentant sin, but regains a repentant state, then he can be
forgiven while he is still alive, and keep his salvation (1 John 5:16a).

Our views are 180 opposed.

Bible2
Jul 6th 2009, 05:45 AM
Vhayes posted in message #31 of this thread:

Is salvation a gift?


Greetings.

Initial salvation is a gift (Ephesians 2:8). But ultimate salvation is
based on deeds (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9,
Matthew 24:13).



Vhayes posted in message #31 of this thread:

Romans 11
29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29). But
ultimate salvation can be revoked, because of unrepentant sin
(Hebrews 10:26-27), or because of apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), or
because of laziness (Matthew 25:26,30). The calling of God by itself
is not enough to obtain ultimate salvation (Matthew 22:14,
Revelation 17:14b). Only those Christians who are obedient
overcomers will not have their names blotted out of the book of life
(Revelation 3:5, Matthew 24:48-51).



Vhayes posted in message #31 of this thread:

I Thessalonians 5
24 - Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Faithful is God who calls Christians, and he will sanctify them wholly
and bring to pass their whole spirit and soul and body being
preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
(1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). But they have to make an effort on their
part as well (2 Corinthians 7:1, 2 Corinthians 5:9). For if they do not
keep from unrepentant sin they will end up losing their ultimate
salvation (1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13a, Galatians 5:19-21,
Luke 13:3), just as if they do not do good works of faith they will
end up losing their ultimate salvation (James 2:24), just as if they
do not keep from denying Jesus without repentance they will end up
losing their ultimate salvation (2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38).