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Brother_Fred
Jul 2nd 2009, 01:05 AM
I have a very unique problem on my hands. I am a Christian… I believe in God, and I also believe that Jesus was the son of God. My problem lies with God himself, and I question how good he really is.

When I read the bible, I feel so much outrage at the atrocities that our creator has committed, ordered, or condoned.

-He destroyed every living thing on earth, except for Noah and his family (8 people), and 2 of each animal… I believe the term for that kind of action is “Genocide”.

-He allowed Satan to murder 10 of Job’s children, and all but 4 of his “countless” servants. He also allowed Satan to afflict the man with painful sores all over his body. Regardless of the happy ending of the story, innocent people died and a man was physically and emotionally tortured. And just for the record, Satan didn’t even ask if he could mess with anyone… he just told God that he was walking the earth, and God was the one that brought up Job.

-He condones the murder of disobedient children (Deut 21:18-21), homosexuals (Lev 20:13), women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deut 22:13-21), and adulterers (Lev 20:10).

-Slavery is totally acceptable in the bible… God even gives us guidelines as to how to sell your daughter as a slave (Exodus 21:7-8), when to give them light or severe beatings (Luke 12:47-48), and how to mark your slave by driving an awl through their ear (Deut 15:17).

-Women didn’t have much respect in society. It was “shameful” for a woman to speak in church (1Cor 34-5), and they couldn’t teach or hold authority over a man (1Tim 2-12).

-42 children were killed after calling someone “baldy”. “Elisha called down a curse from God and they were eaten by bears”. (2Kings 2:23-24).

-His mercy extends to those who FEAR him (Luke 1:50). This is certainly not the first time we are told to fear God… it seems to appear every few pages in the OT. Personally, I find it hard to love somebody that I am afraid of.

-If my great grandfather (whom I do not even know anything about) happened to be an unrepentant atheist… or even a Satan worshipper, then God will punish me, as well as my children. (Exodus 20:5).

Does any / all of this sound fair to you? Does God get a free pass just because he’s God? He can destroy anything and anyone he wants… at any time… and we still have to praise his greatness and continue to speak of how loving and compassionate he is? Do we love him from the heart, or are we just too afraid NOT to love him. We are told to fear God but not to fear evil, because God is with us (Psalm 23:4). Who should we fear more? The scriptures clearly state that God has killed far more people than Satan has.

Thanks for listening... Fred

jayne
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:03 AM
Hi, Fred.

I'm glad to listen to you. :)

I could go point by point on these eight issues that you have raised and show you where the you have either greatly misunderstood or viewed through the eyes of men. If you want, I could do that, but I can't do it tonight.

But ....

.... I don't think that's going to get to the root of the problem. I'm not a mind-reader, but I get the impression that if we settled these eight issues with you, then you would just find other issues in the Bible to get angry over.

You main issue is with God, Himself, not these incidents.

Tell Him, yourself. Tell Him in prayer that you don't understand Him. In humility, ask Him to reveal Himself to you in a way that you've not understood.

I'm going to pray for you tonight. If you want, tomorrow, I can go through some of your doubts.

But to answer your question, yes .... God is very, very good.

nzyr
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:04 AM
God became a human being and died on a cross for our sins so that we could have eternal life. That's how much He cares for us.


I believe in the days of Noah the world was on the verge of destroying it's self. God intervened and save Noah and his family. We are descended from them.


God has infinite wisdom. We are to trust Him.


For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. -Isaiah 55:8-9

Elijah's Mantle
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:09 AM
Is God good?
I have a very unique problem on my hands. I am a Christian… I believe in God, and I also believe that Jesus was the son of God. My problem lies with God himself, and I question how good he really is.

When I read the bible, I feel so much outrage at the atrocities that our creator has committed, ordered, or condoned.

-He destroyed every living thing on earth, except for Noah and his family (8 people), and 2 of each animal… I believe the term for that kind of action is “Genocide”.

-He allowed Satan to murder 10 of Job’s children, and all but 4 of his “countless” servants. He also allowed Satan to afflict the man with painful sores all over his body. Regardless of the happy ending of the story, innocent people died and a man was physically and emotionally tortured. And just for the record, Satan didn’t even ask if he could mess with anyone… he just told God that he was walking the earth, and God was the one that brought up Job.

-He condones the murder of disobedient children (Deut 21:18-21), homosexuals (Lev 20:13), women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deut 22:13-21), and adulterers (Lev 20:10).

-Slavery is totally acceptable in the bible… God even gives us guidelines as to how to sell your daughter as a slave (Exodus 21:7-8), when to give them light or severe beatings (Luke 12:47-48), and how to mark your slave by driving an awl through their ear (Deut 15:17).

-Women didn’t have much respect in society. It was “shameful” for a woman to speak in church (1Cor 34-5), and they couldn’t teach or hold authority over a man (1Tim 2-12).

-42 children were killed after calling someone “baldy”. “Elisha called down a curse from God and they were eaten by bears”. (2Kings 2:23-24).

-His mercy extends to those who FEAR him (Luke 1:50). This is certainly not the first time we are told to fear God… it seems to appear every few pages in the OT. Personally, I find it hard to love somebody that I am afraid of.

-If my great grandfather (whom I do not even know anything about) happened to be an unrepentant atheist… or even a Satan worshipper, then God will punish me, as well as my children. (Exodus 20:5).

Does any / all of this sound fair to you? Does God get a free pass just because he’s God? He can destroy anything and anyone he wants… at any time… and we still have to praise his greatness and continue to speak of how loving and compassionate he is? Do we love him from the heart, or are we just too afraid NOT to love him. We are told to fear God but not to fear evil, because God is with us (Psalm 23:4). Who should we fear more? The scriptures clearly state that God has killed far more people than Satan has.

Thanks for listening... Fred
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2120450)

:o :eek:
The scriptures clearly state that God has killed far more people than Satan has.

:eek: :help: I feel shock coming on http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif

markedward
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:09 AM
I have a very unique problem on my hands. I am a Christian… I believe in God, and I also believe that Jesus was the son of God. My problem lies with God himself, and I question how good he really is.Claiming that God is good means, of course, that anything and everything he does stems from pure holiness, pure righteousness, and pure justice.


When I read the bible, I feel so much outrage at the atrocities that our creator has committed, ordered, or condoned.Calling the things God "committed, ordered, or condoned" as "atrocities" implies that God did such things without holding his own actions to his standards of purity. In fact, you calling these actions "atrocities" shows a prejudice that you are (possibly) unwilling to consider that God had a reasoning based on his pure standards... or even that his reasoning is incomprehensible to you. If you understood everything that God did, he couldn't justly be called God, could he? But he provides reasoning for all of the actions we read about in the Bible.


-He destroyed every living thing on earth, except for Noah and his family (8 people), and 2 of each animal… I believe the term for that kind of action is “Genocide”.This is based on God's standard of justice. The text describes that all of mankind had become wicked and violent, with the remote exception of Noah and his family. (They, of course, were still sinners, but they alone had a true faith in the One God, and his holiness.) God created mankind to do good. By Noah's time, mankind was completely wicked and evil, and bent on destruction. God intervened, and the given reason is that he is absolutely just; he justly punished the wicked for their crimes against humanity, and he mercifully spared the few who did not conform to the evils of the world.


-He allowed Satan to murder 10 of Job’s children, and all but 4 of his “countless” servants. He also allowed Satan to afflict the man with painful sores all over his body. Regardless of the happy ending of the story, innocent people died and a man was physically and emotionally tortured. And just for the record, Satan didn’t even ask if he could mess with anyone… he just told God that he was walking the earth, and God was the one that brought up Job."Just for the record", Satan imposed upon God the claim that Job would reject God if all of his material wealth was removed from him, God then allowed this to happen. Satan "didn't ask", but he did goad God. This situation stems from God's righteousness, and ultimate vindication that Job, though obviously unhappy with his situation, remained faithful to God through his hardships. Through the entirety of the book, God never outright explains his reasoning to Job for why he allowed Job's household to do. As God told Job, "gird up your loins", i.e., "suck it up".


-He condones the murder of disobedient children (Deut 21:18-21), homosexuals (Lev 20:13), women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deut 22:13-21), and adulterers (Lev 20:10).You're setting up these situations from both (a) the use of the word "murder" and (b) a modern culture's viewpoint. First, the word "murder" means "to kill illegally". If it is the Law that allows these cases of the death penalty, then by definition they are not murder. Second, whose standards are you using here? The standard of a Western, anti-God culture, where anything and everything is allowed to take place as long as it makes people "happy" and "good"? Or God's standard of absolute righteousness and holiness?

God's children are the people of Israel. When they disobey him, he has the absolutely just right in punishing them, even by death. This relationship between God and Israel is mirrored by the relationship between Parents and Child. Hence, they same rules apply.

Homosexuality is, as God called it, an "abomination". If you don't believe this, you might as well give up the entirety of Scripture. God's morality doesn't change, so before anyone can tout that homosexuality is "okay now" just because we're living thousands of years later should either admit that they are just conforming to a modern culture that allows it citizens to do whatever they want, or they should admit that God, the creator of mankind, is the ultimate authority, and infinitely wiser than we can imagine. Biologically speaking, homosexuality "just doesn't work". Theologically speaking, God created man for woman, and woman for man. Regardless of the direction you go at it, homosexuality is a distortion of good things.


-Slavery is totally acceptable in the bible… God even gives us guidelines as to how to sell your daughter as a slave (Exodus 21:7-8), when to give them light or severe beatings (Luke 12:47-48), and how to mark your slave by driving an awl through their ear (Deut 15:17).First, you're interpreting the word "slave" in the Bible through our post American Civil War ideals. "Slavery" in the Bible simply is not the same thing as "slavery" seen in America over the last few hundred years. People in the Bible were not made into slaves over racial issues. Slaves in the Bible were paid. They were promised protection by their masters. And, depending on the circumstances, the Law enforced releasing slaves after X-amount of time. And again, the relationship between God as master (the ultimate authority) and Israel as "slave" or "bond-servant" is mirrored by the Master and Slave relationship seen here. When Israel acted wickedly and disobediently, God punished the people. The "marking" via the awl mirrors the "marking" via circumcision.


-Women didn’t have much respect in society. It was “shameful” for a woman to speak in church (1Cor 34-5), and they couldn’t teach or hold authority over a man (1Tim 2-12).Right... only if you ignore the instances in which women held authority: Sarah laughed at God, but was not punished for her emotional outburst. Deborah was a prophet, judge, and general over all of Israel, and no one questioned it. Athaliah (a woman) was the sole ruler over Judah for seven years (she was ousted for her wickedness). Jezebel (also a wicked woman) ruled Israel for a good deal of time. They certainly must have commanded respect in order to rule entire nations. Likewise, the only people who remained faithful to Christ until his death were women (excluding the sole male disciple who stayed with him), following him to his crucifixion. Paul likewise mentions several women with high praise in Romans 16, calling some of them titles such as "deacon" and "apostle".

1 Corinthians 14.35 (you had the wrong verse referenced) and 1 Timothy 2.12, on the other hand, remind the reader that God specifically placed a curse upon woman way back in Genesis 3.16, in which authority over woman was given to man. Paul isn't condemning women who teach the gospel (again, he commends many women for doing so in Romans 16), but the plain state of the matter is that God created men and women with different roles, and one of those is that God gave authority to man over woman. This does not mean that women are "inferior" to men, it simply means that when the role for leadership arises, it has been appointed to men.


-42 children were killed after calling someone “baldy”. “Elisha called down a curse from God and they were eaten by bears”. (2Kings 2:23-24).These "youths" (the Hebrew word allows for individuals into their late teens; it is not restrictive to merely children) were mocking a prophet of God, and hence, they were directly mocking God. Their punishment was entirely just.


-His mercy extends to those who FEAR him (Luke 1:50). This is certainly not the first time we are told to fear God… it seems to appear every few pages in the OT. Personally, I find it hard to love somebody that I am afraid of.Then you drastically misinterpret the word "fear". A good ruler is someone who can rule both mercifully and fearfully. The word "fear" as used here does not mean "submit in complete terror". It's connotation is "respect".

A good ruler is someone who's anger should be feared, but is loved for their righteous justice and their righteous mercy. Your post up to this point betrays your attitude that God shouldn't be "allowed" to demand justice and holiness and righteousness, that he shouldn't be "allowed" to be righteously angry and vengeful against the wicked and the sinful.


-If my great grandfather (whom I do not even know anything about) happened to be an unrepentant atheist… or even a Satan worshipper, then God will punish me, as well as my children. (Exodus 20:5).This is a fallacy, because, as a Christian, you should know that Christ saves us from the Law.


The scriptures clearly state that God has killed far more people than Satan has.It also states that everyone God killed was for a just and holy reason... not out of evil intent or wicked delight.

Elijah's Mantle
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:15 AM
:eek: I cant grasp how come God kills people :cry: :confused I dont understand :confused

crossnote
Jul 2nd 2009, 02:51 AM
Man forfeited his life in the
Garden of Eden through his open rebellion against God, remember? God is under no obligation to continue mankind's existence on earth or extend it or bless it. We 'died' in Adam.
But it was His great mercy to offer forgiveness of our sin and eternal life thru His innocent' Son's suffering and death for even our ingratitude. If we happen to enjoy some peace and safety on this earth it is only an extra not a guaranteed part of the admission ticket.

Brother_Fred
Jul 3rd 2009, 12:34 AM
PLEASE don’t tell me that no righteous people have been hurt by God’s wrath on the wicked… That would fall somewhere between “extremely inaccurate” and “delusional”. Creator or not, wholesale slaughter of “innocent” people is disgraceful, and I find it difficult to think that everybody (with the exception of 8 people) on planet earth during Noah’s time were “wicked”.

Since we all bear the sins of Adam, then that seems to be an umbrella which would justify anything God wants to do to us because we are born as sinners. From a practical standpoint, it seems very unfair that sin is transferable… as would be the punishment for it.

Since Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins, then theoretically we should be born pure… and have the opportunity to screw up our own lives instead of being held responsible for what Adam and Eve did. Doing something right or wrong requires the knowledge of knowing what IS right and wrong, and making a conscious decision to choose one or the other. “Guilty by default” defies logic, reason, and most of all... compassion.

I fail to understand why God would create something (mankind) that was inherently flawed. If he wanted absolute perfection, then he could have made us that way from the beginning, or destroyed Adam and Eve and started over.

Thanks for participating in this conversation, and my sincerest apologies to those that I have offended with my words… I fully understand that some of you are appalled by my point of view. I am being open and honest because if I can’t justify these things in my mind, I know I can never have the relationship with God that I would like to have. In other words, I have nothing to lose at this point : (

In all Sincerity,
Tom (my real name)

Here is a prayer I wrote:

Dear Lord, I thank you for all of the blessings you have bestowed on our family and thank you for the beauty and perfection of nature that I see around me every day. Please forgive me for questioning you, and I beg for your guidance to help me understand what I am having trouble seeing. Lord, hear my prayer.

nzyr
Jul 3rd 2009, 01:07 AM
I fail to understand why God would create something (mankind) that was inherently flawed. If he wanted absolute perfection, then he could have made us that way from the beginning, or destroyed Adam and Eve and started over.

I'm glad God didn't give up on mankind. And you should be too. And only God is perfect.

Keturah
Jul 3rd 2009, 01:20 AM
Can I ask a question here too?

If you saw a rabid dog, threatening your loved ones would you kill it?

Well, I venture to say you would.

The societies that God had killed or destroyed himself were so evil they were like rabid dogs.
In his mercy he destroyed them to keep the poison from spreading to others.

Remember God is omnipresent, he knew their hearts from the beginning to the end, and knew there was no repentance in them. He had already been patient, and long suffering, and they were evil to the core.

Would you not kill someone threatening one of your loved ones?
God is Good, all the time.

notuptome
Jul 3rd 2009, 02:02 AM
You position is fairly common among those who are not Christians. Now in your first post you said you believe in God and that Jesus is the Son of God. That is a good start. The problem is that you don't like the way God has conducted His business in the OT.

Let's consider the following. God made man. As creator He has a soverign right to do whatever He pleases with His creation. The creation is not greater than the creator. Rom 9:20-21 O man who art thou that repliest against God? shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?

Job34:12 Yea surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert justice. Only God can judge righteously. All men judge with a flawed bias especially when they endeavor to judge God.

I think we need to get to know the goodness of God before we judge Him. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. Rom 2:4

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Dani H
Jul 3rd 2009, 03:37 AM
Yes, God is good. Always.

But I think we often lack understanding and so we accuse Him of being less than. Which is perfectly human, I suppose.

I would strongly caution you as far as comparing God and satan though.

Because if you consider the fact that satan has never created life ... ever ... you have absolutely no basis for comparison. All the enemy has ever done is murder, destroy, steal, lie and deceive. That's the whole of his track record. I can't say I'm impressed.

As far as the fear of God ... how do you find it difficult to respect Him and worship Him as God? That's what the fear of God means. The highest degree of respect and awe. How is that hard to do? He is the Creator, we are not. He is infinite, we are not. Least we can do, no?

Do keep in mind that God is the only Source of everything that is good and right in this universe. If it wasn't for Him ... well, I don't even want to think about it.

I would strongly encourage you to study up on the New Testament. We have to see the Old in light of the New, and not the other way around. Look at the OT in the light of Jesus, and ask the Lord to open your eyes so that you will begin to see things the way God sees them. It's all a matter of perspective. Really, it is. :)

crossnote
Jul 3rd 2009, 03:50 AM
PLEASE don’t tell me that no righteous people have been hurt by God’s wrath on the wicked…

This is the crux. There are no righteous people...none...except ONE...and they crucified Him. That's God's declaration even in the New Testament. We must deal with it ...and in dealing with it we see God's tremendous merciful kindness in giving His Son to a bloody death in order to reconcile us FREELY to Himself. But it wasn't free for Him was it? He didn't have to. He could have turned His back and let the whole race perish in Adam...we would have. (Sounds similar to a poem I posted on the poetry board awhile back.)

firecracker070445
Jul 3rd 2009, 02:46 PM
Tom, You have brought up great questions. I think that God is very pleased that you are questioning Him. You clearly are reading the Scriptures and searching for truth about God. If you seek Him you will find Him. Adam and Eve fell because they wanted to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instead of from the tree of life. They wanted to be able to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. God says that His ways are not our ways and we must lean not to our own understanding. God has never killed an innocent person because there is no one that is innocent. Romans 3:10 says that no one is good and no one seeks after God. We all deserve to be destroyed, but God because of His mercy has chosen to save a portion of mankind. For a lot more on that subject see my posts under Jesus did tell us to pray for the lost. The fear that we have of God is a reverential fear. If you are saved you need not fear the wrath of God because His wrath is not directed at you. Those who are not saved do need to fear God because His wrath is being stored up for them. I sense that you will be among the elect because your heart is turning to God. To have some doubts and questions is by no means a bad sign. Roger

Desperaux
Jul 3rd 2009, 02:50 PM
Brother Fred...

We cannot hope to begin to be able to judge God for goodness when we are evil. Our measure for goodness is entirely skewed.

God has never committed an atrocity, but He has judged and punished evil severely. It is no match for the way in which evil will be punished once and for all, because it will be without mercy.

So far, God has shown all of mankind His great mercy. We are still here.

God is inconceivably good! All goodness that we can ever know is by His standard, and not our own.

Firstfruits
Jul 3rd 2009, 02:52 PM
I have a very unique problem on my hands. I am a Christian… I believe in God, and I also believe that Jesus was the son of God. My problem lies with God himself, and I question how good he really is.

When I read the bible, I feel so much outrage at the atrocities that our creator has committed, ordered, or condoned.

-He destroyed every living thing on earth, except for Noah and his family (8 people), and 2 of each animal… I believe the term for that kind of action is “Genocide”.

-He allowed Satan to murder 10 of Job’s children, and all but 4 of his “countless” servants. He also allowed Satan to afflict the man with painful sores all over his body. Regardless of the happy ending of the story, innocent people died and a man was physically and emotionally tortured. And just for the record, Satan didn’t even ask if he could mess with anyone… he just told God that he was walking the earth, and God was the one that brought up Job.

-He condones the murder of disobedient children (Deut 21:18-21), homosexuals (Lev 20:13), women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deut 22:13-21), and adulterers (Lev 20:10).

-Slavery is totally acceptable in the bible… God even gives us guidelines as to how to sell your daughter as a slave (Exodus 21:7-8), when to give them light or severe beatings (Luke 12:47-48), and how to mark your slave by driving an awl through their ear (Deut 15:17).

-Women didn’t have much respect in society. It was “shameful” for a woman to speak in church (1Cor 34-5), and they couldn’t teach or hold authority over a man (1Tim 2-12).

-42 children were killed after calling someone “baldy”. “Elisha called down a curse from God and they were eaten by bears”. (2Kings 2:23-24).

-His mercy extends to those who FEAR him (Luke 1:50). This is certainly not the first time we are told to fear God… it seems to appear every few pages in the OT. Personally, I find it hard to love somebody that I am afraid of.

-If my great grandfather (whom I do not even know anything about) happened to be an unrepentant atheist… or even a Satan worshipper, then God will punish me, as well as my children. (Exodus 20:5).

Does any / all of this sound fair to you? Does God get a free pass just because he’s God? He can destroy anything and anyone he wants… at any time… and we still have to praise his greatness and continue to speak of how loving and compassionate he is? Do we love him from the heart, or are we just too afraid NOT to love him. We are told to fear God but not to fear evil, because God is with us (Psalm 23:4). Who should we fear more? The scriptures clearly state that God has killed far more people than Satan has.

Thanks for listening... Fred

In answer to your question, God is good, unless Jesus is mistaken.

Mt 19:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mk 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Lk 18:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Mt 18:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

I hope that answers your initial question.

Firstfruits

The Mighty Sword
Jul 3rd 2009, 04:05 PM
Brother Fred,

Excellent question.

God is so good he is pure 100% Holy, think about that and he will not tolerate sin, that's why he tossed satan(evil).

Every thing GOD does is for his own sake and good always prevails,always.

My question to you is,

Would GOD destroy anything Holy?

Would GOD test our faith?

Is Jesus preparing Heaven for us.

Peace to you.

Brother_Fred
Jul 4th 2009, 12:44 AM
Perhaps this is the end of the road for me. I have asked God why he has done these things, and he doesn’t answer me. I have asked a group (all of you) that I trust and respect as devout Christians, and quite frankly I’m not that happy with the answers. I trust your responses as the truth, but they reinforce some of my original skepticism… I can’t justify a loving God “allowing” us to live.

I am not a piece of clay, a puppet, or a pawn on a chess board for somebody to do with me as they want… creator or not. It hurts me to think that God, out of “love” and “the goodness of his heart” is “allowing us to live”. We are so flawed that we “deserve to die”… that’s a tough pill to swallow.

I want to thank all of you for your prayers, but as general consensus dictates throughout other posts on this forum, prayers are only answered if they coincide with “God’s will”. Perhaps it’s my destiny to continue to torture myself with scripture. In all honesty, I was much happier before I started reading the bible, seeking God, and asking questions.

I honestly don’t know where I am going from here… I have some soul searching to do and some tough decisions ahead of me.

Thank you so much for all of your time, and I would like to apologize again if I offended anyone.

Tom
:B :confused :( :cry: :giveup:

BrckBrln
Jul 4th 2009, 12:50 AM
I am not a piece of clay, a puppet, or a pawn on a chess board for somebody to do with me as they want… creator or not.

Read Romans 9 and get yourself some good theology books. Don't give up, questions like these take time, my friend.

Desperaux
Jul 4th 2009, 01:34 AM
In all honesty, I was much happier before I started reading the bible, seeking God, and asking questions.

To be honest, God isn't interested in us being happy so much as He is interested in us being in right relationship with Him and being obedient to His Word. THAT brings happiness.

everyday_christian
Jul 4th 2009, 03:21 AM
I have a very unique problem on my hands. I am a Christian… I believe in God, and I also believe that Jesus was the son of God. My problem lies with God himself, and I question how good he really is.

When I read the bible, I feel so much outrage at the atrocities that our creator has committed, ordered, or condoned.

<snip>
Thanks for listening... Fred



The fact is simple: trust in God has been made impossible for the flesh. Only one born of the Spirit of God can trust in God and find Him. There simply is no other way. Man can not see God, not at all, unless they are born of God.

He is impossible to understand using human understanding.

No one has to go to Scripture to see this fact -- it is all over the world. There is evil everywhere, as so many say, "How does a good God allow this to happen".

Salvation is - by design - to be through trust.

ConqueredbyLove
Jul 4th 2009, 03:25 AM
Perhaps this is the end of the road for me. I have asked God why he has done these things, and he doesn’t answer me. I have asked a group (all of you) that I trust and respect as devout Christians, and quite frankly I’m not that happy with the answers. I trust your responses as the truth, but they reinforce some of my original skepticism… I can’t justify a loving God “allowing” us to live.

I am not a piece of clay, a puppet, or a pawn on a chess board for somebody to do with me as they want… creator or not. It hurts me to think that God, out of “love” and “the goodness of his heart” is “allowing us to live”. We are so flawed that we “deserve to die”… that’s a tough pill to swallow.

I want to thank all of you for your prayers, but as general consensus dictates throughout other posts on this forum, prayers are only answered if they coincide with “God’s will”. Perhaps it’s my destiny to continue to torture myself with scripture. In all honesty, I was much happier before I started reading the bible, seeking God, and asking questions.

I honestly don’t know where I am going from here… I have some soul searching to do and some tough decisions ahead of me.

Thank you so much for all of your time, and I would like to apologize again if I offended anyone.

Tom
:B :confused :( :cry: :giveup:

Tom, :cry:

Would it help you at all to know, that I have wrestled with the same questions, also?

I just want you to know that you are not alone! I have had serious doubts...Actually, my faith actually failed at one point in time.

I really do want you to know...you are not alone, dearest brother and I will be praying for you.

You bet, guy! You are not a puppet or a pawn on a chess board! You are a living, breathing soul, who, I believe, has ligitimate questions! And that is fine!

I so wish I could give you a hug and let you pour yourself out so that...I could let you know...it is...OK....to have these questions....

My heart weeps for you...it really does....:cry:

tt1106
Jul 4th 2009, 04:47 AM
Perhaps this is the end of the road for me. I have asked God why he has done these things, and he doesn’t answer me. I have asked a group (all of you) that I trust and respect as devout Christians, and quite frankly I’m not that happy with the answers. I trust your responses as the truth, but they reinforce some of my original skepticism… I can’t justify a loving God “allowing” us to live.

I am not a piece of clay, a puppet, or a pawn on a chess board for somebody to do with me as they want… creator or not. It hurts me to think that God, out of “love” and “the goodness of his heart” is “allowing us to live”. We are so flawed that we “deserve to die”… that’s a tough pill to swallow.

I want to thank all of you for your prayers, but as general consensus dictates throughout other posts on this forum, prayers are only answered if they coincide with “God’s will”. Perhaps it’s my destiny to continue to torture myself with scripture. In all honesty, I was much happier before I started reading the bible, seeking God, and asking questions.

I honestly don’t know where I am going from here… I have some soul searching to do and some tough decisions ahead of me.

Thank you so much for all of your time, and I would like to apologize again if I offended anyone.

Tom
:B :confused :( :cry: :giveup:


Who's image are we created in Tom? We are created in the image of God. Everything Good comes from God. That means our laughter and our tears. The old testament is great, but if you stop there, you will only have half the story. the formation of the world leads to Christ. Every verse and every story points to the completion. To the ultimate sacrifice. The answer to the question, how will we ever be allowed in the presence of the most holy God.
God planned for us. How faithful that he had a plan all along and we see it in action even now. Yes, we are fallen, but we are washed by the blood of Christ. Yes, God formed a nation and destroyed others. This was about chosen people who even though they had God camped with them every night,could not wait ot carve images of other gods and worship in their own depravity. But now the rest of the story. God loves you. God provided for you. He wants to be with you forever. Keep reading Brother, the story get's better and better. Once you understand the depth of the sacrifice, you will appreciate everything God did leading up to it.


Blessings, I pray you keep seeking.

tt1106

nzyr
Jul 4th 2009, 05:32 AM
Tom, remember I don't think you'll find anything like this in any other philosophy. This was written by the same man who wrote Revelation:


Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. -1 John 4:9-16

Dani H
Jul 4th 2009, 06:06 AM
What God has done, is sent His only Son to die for our sin. Because He is good, and because He does love us.

Again, I would encourage you to focus on Jesus, first of all. Because without Him, nothing else makes sense. We no longer live in Old Testament times. The Lord has been born, has died, and has risen again.

Read the Gospel, and the letters of the Apostle John. Read them, again and again and again. God speaks to us now through His Son alone. You will find your answers in Him, and nowhere else. :)

Brother_Fred
Jul 8th 2009, 03:35 AM
I am starting to believe that the bible is so ambiguous, that you can read it and find good things, and you can find bad things… I guess it depends what you’re looking for and how you choose to apply (or not apply) it to human logic. For instance: - Jealousy is a bad / negative trait (1 Cor 3:2-4), yet it is okay for God (Ex 20:4-6 / Deut 5:9, 4:24, 6:15)

-For those who say that the laws of the OT do not apply since Jesus died for our sins, I beg to differ with you… (Matt 5:17-19). One of two things: Either ALL of it applies in today’s world, or NONE of it applies in today’s world… we should not be able to pick and choose what does and does not.

-When something can not be explained, it’s either “The will of God”, “We just can’t understand it”, or “It’s not for us to know”.

-What about God sending Jesus to earth to “die for our sins”? As heartwarming and loving as that may sound, God could have spared his life with a simple, “I forgive mankind for all sins”, with no torture, suffering, or bloodshed on behalf of his son. Seriously…why does someone or something have to suffer and / or die to appease God?

-Jesus died for our sins, but… WE ARE STILL BORN AS SINNERS. That is just a “no win situation” that we are placed in by default.

I’m so confused, and I think I might have to throw in the towel at this point. The conflicts and contradictions are consuming my life in a negative way and I know I will never be able to justify everything I read in the bible. I have a very analytical mind, and unless 1 + 2 = 3, then it doesn’t make sense to me… Fuzzy mathematics <and reasoning> doesn’t seem to sit well with me, so perhaps I am not cut out to be a Christian.

I can’t toss logic and reason to the wind and just “go with the flow” because it’s the right thing to do…or because I am scared of the consequences of my (possibly warped) view of what I interpret from the scriptures.

Tom

Zack702
Jul 8th 2009, 08:41 AM
I guess it depends what you’re looking for and how you choose to apply (or not apply) it to human logic. For instance: - Jealousy is a bad / negative trait (1 Cor 3:2-4), yet it is okay for God


Since you came to the end of the road.
And then you came back to throw in the towel.
I thought maybe you might return once more.

What logically is the difference between God and man ?

If you logically are basing the traits of God upon the sinfulness of humans then you are not logically understanding the difference between the two.

You didn't mention this verse...
Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

I would very much like to hear your understanding of how God is Jealous since this is a major concept in the bible that I rarely see discussed here. Although therein is a mystery of his love for us and his sacrifice for us.

You posted 1 cor 3 :2-4. This in my bible is written as envy. Envy out of corrupted desire as written in the KJV bible is not Jealousy which comes from love.

nzyr
Jul 8th 2009, 09:13 AM
...What about God sending Jesus to earth to “die for our sins”? As heartwarming and loving as that may sound, God could have spared his life with a simple, “I forgive mankind for all sins”, with no torture, suffering, or bloodshed on behalf of his son. Seriously…why does someone or something have to suffer and / or die to appease God?

Don't you think God would have done it that way if it was possible? Jesus offering himself as a sacrifice was the only way to save people.

God warned Adam and Eve about sin...

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -Genesis 2:17

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. -Hebrews 9:22

God can't have sin near Him. It would contaminate Him. Jesus coming to the earth and dying for our sins is the only way we could be saved. Jesus is our Saviour.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. -Hebrews 2:17

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

-1 Peter 1:18-19

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
-1 Timothy 1:15

VerticalReality
Jul 8th 2009, 01:31 PM
Romans 5:6-11
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

God showed His great love toward us when He humbled Himself in the form of a man, Jesus Christ, and died on a cross so that we may be saved.

John 15:9-17
“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

Our Lord Jesus Christ laid down His life for His friends. There is no greater love than that.

MarleVVLL
Jul 8th 2009, 07:14 PM
The reason those incidents offends you is because you think humans actually deserve something. The only thing we deserve is the eternal wrath of God. Anything else is an unremarkable gift of mercy, love, and grace from God. We deserve nothing - wait, we deserve ONE thing, and that is hell.

This is because God is holy and we are evil. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and are subject to his wrath because our sin - and even our nature as well. Every person who was ordered to die or was beaten in the OT deserved it. In other words, because of their sin, they bought the punishment of those orders.

Thank God for the gift of Jesus on that rugged Cross! Oh, the joy!

Desperaux
Jul 8th 2009, 08:27 PM
The reason those incidents offends you is because you think humans actually deserve something. The only thing we deserve is the eternal wrath of God. Anything else is an unremarkable gift of mercy, love, and grace from God. We deserve nothing - wait, we deserve ONE thing, and that is hell.

This is because God is holy and we are evil. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and are subject to his wrath because our sin - and even our nature as well. Every person who was ordered to die or was beaten in the OT deserved it. In other words, because of their sin, they bought the punishment of those orders.

Thank God for the gift of Jesus on that rugged Cross! Oh, the joy!

I am so grateful that God thinks we deserve a Saviour!

MarleVVLL
Jul 8th 2009, 11:43 PM
We don't deserve Him. While we were still sinners, He loved us and had mercy on us.

Desperaux
Jul 8th 2009, 11:50 PM
We don't deserve Him. While we were still sinners, He loved us and had mercy on us.

Almighty God considers us worthy of saving.

MarleVVLL
Jul 8th 2009, 11:52 PM
We regards in that we 'earned' it, absolutley not. In regards in that, out of His great mercy for us, He saved us; absolutley yes.

Desperaux
Jul 8th 2009, 11:56 PM
We regards in that we 'earned' it, absolutley not. In regards in that, out of His great mercy for us, He saved us; absolutley yes.

We are in agreement! I am speaking through God's perspective...He thinks we are worth it all. :D

MarleVVLL
Jul 9th 2009, 01:12 AM
Yep. Perspective is key!