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Firstfruits
Jul 4th 2009, 03:22 PM
According to the following scriptures a child of God cannot sin, so if we do sin, until we have repented of that sin and it has been forgiven, who's children are? To whom do we belong?

1 John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1 Jn 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

crossnote
Jul 5th 2009, 05:23 AM
Vincent's Word Studies is typical of the responses of many other commentators...in a nutshell.

1 John 3:6

Sinneth not. John does NOT teach that believers do not sin, but is speaking of a CHARACTER, a HABIT." Throughout the Epistle he deals with the ideal reality of life in God, in which the love of God and sin exclude each other as light and darkness.

Firstfruits
Jul 5th 2009, 10:41 AM
Vincent's Word Studies is typical of the responses of many other commentators...in a nutshell.

1 John 3:6

Sinneth not. John does NOT teach that believers do not sin, but is speaking of a CHARACTER, a HABIT." Throughout the Epistle he deals with the ideal reality of life in God, in which the love of God and sin exclude each other as light and darkness.

Only by not abiding in Christ will we sin, if we abide in Christ we will not sin.

1 John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1 Jn 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So if we do sin, until we have repented of that sin and it has been forgiven, who's children are? To whom do we belong?

We cannot belong to both.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

blessedmommyuv3
Jul 5th 2009, 11:25 AM
I agree with Crossnote. :D

Until we are glorified in heaven with our Savior, we will continue to sin. If we are His, we will not continue to wallow unrepentant in the same sins. But our Christians lives are a process of sanctification here on Earth. We do sin, and we will sin; however, once we are truly saved by Him, sin does not cause us to lose our salvation and become children of the devil until we repent again. He will keep us, and by His Holy Spirit we will persevere to the end. :D
Otherwise we would vacillate between being children of God and children of the Devil throughout each and every day. :bounce: (Because I don't know about you, but I don't think many days I end the day sin-free as hard as I try.)
Praise God that is not the case!

Jen :D

Firstfruits
Jul 5th 2009, 01:09 PM
I agree with Crossnote. :D

Until we are glorified in heaven with our Savior, we will continue to sin. If we are His, we will not continue to wallow unrepentant in the same sins. But our Christians lives are a process of sanctification here on Earth. We do sin, and we will sin; however, once we are truly saved by Him, sin does not cause us to lose our salvation and become children of the devil until we repent again. He will keep us, and by His Holy Spirit we will persevere to the end. :D
Otherwise we would vacillate between being children of God and children of the Devil throughout each and every day. :bounce: (Because I don't know about you, but I don't think many days I end the day sin-free as hard as I try.)
Praise God that is not the case!

Jen :D

If we say we abide in God and we sin the bible say that we lie and do not the truth.

1 Jn 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 Jn 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

What you have said here is what the bible says;

Otherwise we would vacillate between being children of God and children of the Devil throughout each and every day.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

So who's children are we if we sin, according to that which is written?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 5th 2009, 01:14 PM
First Fruits - are you children STILL your children when they misbehave? Or does their DNA change and you throw them out the door and tell them they belong to the worthless couple down the street?

Firstfruits
Jul 5th 2009, 01:37 PM
First Fruits - are you children STILL your children when they misbehave? Or does their DNA change and you throw them out the door and tell them they belong to the worthless couple down the street?

My children cannot be compared with the Chldren of God with regards to what is written.

1 Jn 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

For us to have fellowship with God we cannot walk in dakrness/sin.

1 Jn 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

This is what identifies as to wether or not we are children of God or of the devil;

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Righteousness or unrighteousness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Zack702
Jul 5th 2009, 01:48 PM
My children cannot be compared with the Chldren of God with regards to what is written.

1 Jn 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

For us to have fellowship with God we cannot walk in dakrness/sin.

1 Jn 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

This is what identifies as to wether or not we are children of God or of the devil;

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Righteousness or unrighteousness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Sin is the transgression of the law according to what is there written.

Then would this sin include keeping the Sabbath?

Firstfruits
Jul 5th 2009, 02:14 PM
Sin is the transgression of the law according to what is there written.

Then would this sin include keeping the Sabbath?

Not unless we are under the law of God given to Israel by God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 5th 2009, 02:39 PM
1 Jn 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 Jn 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

1 Jn 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 Jn 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 Jn 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 Jn 2:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Only by abiding in Christ can we say we are Children of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Zack702
Jul 5th 2009, 03:29 PM
I agree only when faithfully following is it manifest as described by Paul the difference between good and evil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It seams to me that verse nine is talking about Jesus.
And verse 10 is talking about everyone else.
And the root of the matter is unconditional love for the family of believers.
What do you think?

logos7
Jul 5th 2009, 04:38 PM
Firstfruits, I admire your zeal for God and His Word. That being said you might want to do a little study on the background and reason for John writing this first epistle. He was writing to defend the faith of Christ against the gnostics who had as one of their doctine the teaching that the flesh/material world was sinful so no need to keep it in check, they taught you could sin all you want, because the spirit being was above and serparated from sin, in other words these people believe they could sin in the flesh all they wanted and be pure/sinless in the spirit.
The Apostle John responsed to their being sinless in their spirit in I John 1:7-10:
7) But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all unrighteousness.
8) If we say that we have not sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

To walk in the light one cannot commit sin willfully all the time, but one will sin. After the first chapter John then attacks their belief that they could commit sins in the flesh and be sinless in their spirit these are the verses you have presented.

For if we read this Book the way you are describing, John and the rest of the writers of the New Testament are in disagreement with each other.
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4)
"But if ye are led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18)
Paul is preaching justification by faith pure and simple here. Not sinless perfection.

To be honest we as saints are not sinless, but in the eyes of God we are; not because we haven't sin, but because we have believed and called on Jesus to save us from our sins. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." II Corinthians 5:21 (see also I Corinthians 1:30-31) Praise God I'm righteous because of what Jesus did for me nearly 2000 years ago; all glory belongs to Christ.

To abide in Christ does not mean to be without sin, but to be sinless because of Him taking our sins. Paul wrote of his sinful state in Romans 7:15-25, he close by saying, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (v. 25) Read Romans 8 and see how Paul says law of the Spirit/or having the mind of the Spirit has set us free from the law of sin.

Firstfruits I praise God for another Christian who know the importance of the Love given us by the Spirit (Romans 5:5). But if we are sinless why did Peter write, "And above all these things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins." (I Peter 4:8 see also Proverbs 10:12) Just in case you don't know charity is the Old English word for love. So how can love cover a multitude of sins if we have no sin. Jesus did not say all men would know us by are sinlessness but by our love. "(34) A new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." The following scriptures tell us that if we love one another we have keep the law of Christ which He gave us when he died for us (Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:8-9; Galatians 5:14 just to name a few.)

"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fufil the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2

I am a child of God because I received Jesus as my Saviour John 1:12; by being led by the Spirit, Romans 8:14-17. If I sin and don't repent I'm still a child of God but will be chastise see Hebrews 12:4-11, believe me I have been spank enough by God to know this passage is very true.

So if I sin and don't repent God doesn't reject me but subject me to His chastisement.

May the peace of God keep you firstfruit.

Partaker of Christ
Jul 5th 2009, 08:14 PM
If we say we abide in God and we sin the bible say that we lie and do not the truth.

1 Jn 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 Jn 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

What you have said here is what the bible says;

Otherwise we would vacillate between being children of God and children of the Devil throughout each and every day.God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits!

This is talking about 'FELLOWSHIP', not 'KINSHIP'

We are still His children, but fellowship is (or could be) on hold.
This is not talking about if we comit A sin, but if we walk in darkeness.

Let me also say; that people who are trusting in themselves, and not in the finnished and keeping work of God through His Son Jesus Christ, are walking in darkness.

notuptome
Jul 5th 2009, 08:53 PM
Firstfruits!

This is talking about 'FELLOWSHIP', not 'KINSHIP'

We are still His children, but fellowship is (or could be) on hold.
This is not talking about if we comit A sin, but if we walk in darkeness.

Let me also say; that people who are trusting in themselves, and not in the finnished and keeping work of God through His Son Jesus Christ, are walking in darkness.
We need to distinguish between two separate events. The first is salvation the act of Christ cleansing us from all unrighteousness with His blood shed at Calvary. We believe on Him and are born anew with eternal spiritual life and are promised to live with Him forever.
The second event is sanctification which is something of a process. This is our new walk in life as a son of God. In our walk with the Lord we will sometimes err. As new born babes in Christ this process one that the Lord tends to continuously. Evidence Christ washing the feet of His disciples. When Peter objected and then asked to be washed from head to foot Jesus told Peter "He that is washed needeth not except to wash his feet, but is entirely clean; and ye are clean but not all of you." John 13:1-15
A set back in our sanctification is not the same as some suppose a loss of our eternal salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

crossnote
Jul 5th 2009, 11:54 PM
Perhaps our view of 'sin' is too low. If sin is missing the mark and if the mark is loving God with ALL our heart, ALL our mind, ALL our strength, and ALL our soul...ALL the time; AND loving our neighbor as ourselves ALL the time, then WHO does not sin? I think I will chose to rest (abide) in His law keeping in my stead ...instead.

tango
Jul 6th 2009, 12:05 AM
If we say we abide in God and we sin the bible say that we lie and do not the truth.

1 Jn 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 Jn 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



What about the next two verses?

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


If we live in an openly sinful lifestyle (e.g. in an adulterous relationship) it might be asked whether we have fellowship. In such a situation we would be "walking in darkness".

I agree with what others have said - we are children of God but that doesn't mean we are perfect or that we are sinless.

Alaska
Jul 6th 2009, 12:42 AM
Sin is the transgression of the law according to what is there written.

Then would this sin include keeping the Sabbath?


The term "the law" has differing meanings depending on how it is used.
Speaking to Christians there in 1 John, the term relates to the law as what the Christian is under by the NT.
The NT does not obligate its followers to observe the Sabbath after the manner it was required under the OT.
The NT does however obligate its followers to enter into the rest Jesus brought by his death and resurrection; the rest from the dictates of the works of the flesh and the subsequent grief of a bad conscience as the result. [The OT Sabbath also represents the eternal rest for those worthy to "enter into the gates into the city" which is into heaven having eternal life as angels.]

And that rest from sin and guilt is what this thread is all about.

As a born again believer, a person is a child of God and also His servant.
When the child/servant falls into sin, that is a backsliding that must be acknowledged and repented from.
An unrepentant backslidden child of God is not exactly a child of the devil again (as was the case before conversion) but under the influence of the power of darkness who has gotten him or her in that state of danger to their salvation. It is like a wife who commits adultery, yet the husband only wants her to repent and return to him, at which time he will love her as before. He has not divorced her so she is still his and has a longsuffering heart in hopes of restoration.

James 4:
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

The danger of being a child of God and carrying on an adulterous relationship with the world is that the person so doing is opening up themselves to becoming deceived and also having their heart hardened.

Heb. 3:
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

And ultimately there is the real danger of having been patiently dealt with over a long period of time but only becoming more and more deceived and hardened, at which time the Husband may decide to let go and withdraw his grace to an extent that restoration is not possible.

Rom. 11:
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Heb. 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Matt. 24:
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Zack702
Jul 6th 2009, 01:08 AM
The term "the law" has differing meanings depending on how it is used.
Speaking to Christians there in 1 John, the term relates to the law as what the Christian is under by the NT.


I agree and that is why I asked this question. To make it clear that it is often confused by what it means when talking about sin. And therein is the discussion about what Paul is saying.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It seams to me that verse 9 is talking about Jesus.
And verse 10 is talking about everyone else.
And the root of the matter is unconditional love for the family of believers.
What do you think?

Do you think verse 9 is talking about Jesus?

For it seams to me that many who read this think that verse 9 is talking about people other than Jesus.
Wherein perhaps is the idea that there is a danger associated with being a son of God.

But there is no such danger for a son of God as shown in verse 9. There is only such a danger for us in our current state. Which is in expectation of the manifestation of the children of God according to faith. Which is also according to brotherly love which is unconditional. What do you think about this and my thoughts on verse 9 ?

Alaska
Jul 6th 2009, 01:43 AM
Do you think verse 9 is talking about Jesus?

For it seams to me that many who read this think that verse 9 is talking about people other than Jesus.
Wherein perhaps is the idea that there is a danger associated with being a son of God.

But there is no such danger for a son of God as shown in verse 9. There is only such a danger for us in our current state. Which is in expectation of the manifestation of the children of God according to faith. Which is also according to brotherly love which is unconditional. What do you think about this and my thoughts on verse 9 ?


Verse 9 is referring to the born again.
Being born again relates to having the Holy Spirit.
Understanding the nature and result of the Holy Spirit, it is then understandable for John to refer to not sinning with regard to those who are born again.
Gal. 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

John said what he did anticipating those he was speaking to (who have been born again) to be walking in the Spirit.
Of course there is danger associated with being a child of God because we still have freewill and can jump out of his hand. As long as we abide in his hand no man can pluck us out, and that includes the devil.
So of course we are always in danger in that sense. But consider the extreme danger, no rather the complete no hope, we had as unaware of the reality of God and as unbelievers?

This cut rate discounted salvation offer, whereby you have a guarantee with no obligation or massively reduced obligation is to be rejected and hated and condemned as from the devil who would love you to let your guard down as the result of such a false guarantee.

An unconditional salvation means no obligation.
God's love is unconditional in the sense that he accepts you just as you are to hear his Word. But because he is love, he refuses to allow you to stay in that state. The Gospel is all conditional but with assurance that he will grant the strength (grace) to help you do your part in this covenant between you and Him.

For example, Jesus requires a commitment and willingness for one who would follow him to deny themselves and even accept pain and suffering if need be as the result of following him. This is a primary condition.
Someone not accepting a willingness of heart to do so is told they cannot be a Christian.
Jesus simply does not want someone not accepting his conditions.
Loving the truth more than ourselves is a basic criteria of acceptance.

Sirus
Jul 6th 2009, 02:18 AM
If we live in an openly sinful lifestyle (e.g. in an adulterous relationship) it might be asked whether we have fellowship. In such a situation we would be "walking in darkness".

I agree with what others have said - we are children of God but that doesn't mean we are perfect or that we are sinless.I agree. I answered this question
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2123618&postcount=21

here
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2123793&postcount=22

How can a believer 'have sin that is unforgiven'? If they have been to the cross all sin past present and future is forgiven and they are 'in Christ'. As long as their faith remians 'in Him' their forgiveness remains. You cannot maintain forgivness with works. It is maintained by faith. It is a free gift. If you are In Him you have no sin.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Zack702
Jul 6th 2009, 02:22 AM
So of course we are always in danger in that sense. But consider the extreme danger, no rather the complete no hope, we had as unaware of the reality of God and as unbelievers?


But verse 9 is clear when it says that the son of God can not sin. Correct?

For such a one there is no danger.

As for believers and unbelievers in verse 9.
I know I have done sins in my life according to what is written about theft, anger and lust.
However in my time reading the bible I have never rejected any of the teachings of Jesus in disbelief although being self conscious about my own shortcommings, I cannot remember a time when I said to myself Jesus did not exist or is not Lord. But not having a understanding of the bible after first being led to believe in Jesus I then began to read the bible and visit this forum.

And it seams to me that our unconditional love towards one another as believers is the message. Such a message is not necessary for the sons of God that cannot sin. And the message that some are in this state or some are in that state is the reason for the calling of unconditional love for believers no matter what state they are in. In this faith can be applied that no matter what state they are in according to the law, they are not judged by that. But they are judged by what is within there own soul according to what is known about the sons of God and the sons of the Devil. And more noticeably according to brotherly love.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

When I say unconditional love that we are to express. I say this about what is written in verse 10. of 1 John 3. I do not mean to speak for God to say what God means by his judgement. But I speak for how the verse 10 of 1 John 3 seams to be a message of unconditional love for believers as a family and not a message of wondering who exactly in that family is a real son of God. It seams to me a message to promote faith in the family not distress over wondering about it. What do you think?

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 08:23 AM
I agree only when faithfully following is it manifest as described by Paul the difference between good and evil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It seams to me that verse nine is talking about Jesus.
And verse 10 is talking about everyone else.
And the root of the matter is unconditional love for the family of believers.
What do you think?

Are we who say we are christians not born of God?

1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Jn 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 08:32 AM
Firstfruits, I admire your zeal for God and His Word. That being said you might want to do a little study on the background and reason for John writing this first epistle. He was writing to defend the faith of Christ against the gnostics who had as one of their doctine the teaching that the flesh/material world was sinful so no need to keep it in check, they taught you could sin all you want, because the spirit being was above and serparated from sin, in other words these people believe they could sin in the flesh all they wanted and be pure/sinless in the spirit.
The Apostle John responsed to their being sinless in their spirit in I John 1:7-10:
7) But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all unrighteousness.
8) If we say that we have not sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

To walk in the light one cannot commit sin willfully all the time, but one will sin. After the first chapter John then attacks their belief that they could commit sins in the flesh and be sinless in their spirit these are the verses you have presented.

For if we read this Book the way you are describing, John and the rest of the writers of the New Testament are in disagreement with each other.
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4)
"But if ye are led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18)
Paul is preaching justification by faith pure and simple here. Not sinless perfection.

To be honest we as saints are not sinless, but in the eyes of God we are; not because we haven't sin, but because we have believed and called on Jesus to save us from our sins. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." II Corinthians 5:21 (see also I Corinthians 1:30-31) Praise God I'm righteous because of what Jesus did for me nearly 2000 years ago; all glory belongs to Christ.

To abide in Christ does not mean to be without sin, but to be sinless because of Him taking our sins. Paul wrote of his sinful state in Romans 7:15-25, he close by saying, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (v. 25) Read Romans 8 and see how Paul says law of the Spirit/or having the mind of the Spirit has set us free from the law of sin.

Firstfruits I praise God for another Christian who know the importance of the Love given us by the Spirit (Romans 5:5). But if we are sinless why did Peter write, "And above all these things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins." (I Peter 4:8 see also Proverbs 10:12) Just in case you don't know charity is the Old English word for love. So how can love cover a multitude of sins if we have no sin. Jesus did not say all men would know us by are sinlessness but by our love. "(34) A new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." The following scriptures tell us that if we love one another we have keep the law of Christ which He gave us when he died for us (Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:8-9; Galatians 5:14 just to name a few.)

"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fufil the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2

I am a child of God because I received Jesus as my Saviour John 1:12; by being led by the Spirit, Romans 8:14-17. If I sin and don't repent I'm still a child of God but will be chastise see Hebrews 12:4-11, believe me I have been spank enough by God to know this passage is very true.

So if I sin and don't repent God doesn't reject me but subject me to His chastisement.

May the peace of God keep you firstfruit.

Can you explain how the background is going to change those that commit sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

If we abide in him we will not sin, if we do not walk or abide in him we will.

God bless you!

Fiorstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 08:34 AM
But verse 9 is clear when it says that the son of God can not sin. Correct?

For such a one there is no danger.

As for believers and unbelievers in verse 9.
I know I have done sins in my life according to what is written about theft, anger and lust.
However in my time reading the bible I have never rejected any of the teachings of Jesus in disbelief although being self conscious about my own shortcommings, I cannot remember a time when I said to myself Jesus did not exist or is not Lord. But not having a understanding of the bible after first being led to believe in Jesus I then began to read the bible and visit this forum.

And it seams to me that our unconditional love towards one another as believers is the message. Such a message is not necessary for the sons of God that cannot sin. And the message that some are in this state or some are in that state is the reason for the calling of unconditional love for believers no matter what state they are in. In this faith can be applied that no matter what state they are in according to the law, they are not judged by that. But they are judged by what is within there own soul according to what is known about the sons of God and the sons of the Devil. And more noticeably according to brotherly love.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

When I say unconditional love that we are to express. I say this about what is written in verse 10. of 1 John 3. I do not mean to speak for God to say what God means by his judgement. But I speak for how the verse 10 of 1 John 3 seams to be a message of unconditional love for believers as a family and not a message of wondering who exactly in that family is a real son of God. It seams to me a message to promote faith in the family not distress over wondering about it. What do you think?

Are you therefore not born of God?

Firstfruits

alfa
Jul 6th 2009, 11:04 AM
How can a believer 'have sin that is unforgiven'? If they have been to the cross all sin past present and future is forgiven and they are 'in Christ'. As long as their faith remians 'in Him' their forgiveness remains. You cannot maintain forgivness with works. It is maintained by faith. It is a free gift. If you are In Him you have no sin.
Matthew 13:20-22 " but he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. However he has no root in himself, but indures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
He who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the worries of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."

These refers to people who are born again that i would say did not understand the true concept of Christianity for the reason that they were not well taught or they did not seek to understand the seriousness of it. meaning by so doing these people are considered as sinners until they sincerely see the essence of repentance and therefore repent.
You find Christians that sin willfully and don't even feel remorse when they do so, such people have nullified the word of God as a result the holy spirit does not have strength to convict them of sin.
This is what i call unforgiven sin to someone that is given the privileges that he does not consider.

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 12:24 PM
What about the next two verses?

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


If we live in an openly sinful lifestyle (e.g. in an adulterous relationship) it might be asked whether we have fellowship. In such a situation we would be "walking in darkness".

I agree with what others have said - we are children of God but that doesn't mean we are perfect or that we are sinless.

You may agree with what others have said however no one has yet provided scripture that contradict this scripture.

1 Jn 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 Jn 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Are those that do not agree with what is written not therefore born of God or abiding in God or the light?

Please supply scriptures with your answers.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 03:39 PM
With the understanding that Jesus has forgiven us sins that are past, why do we think that all unrighteousness is not the same and
repentance and forgiveness are not as important if we say we are christians?

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Firstfruits

tango
Jul 6th 2009, 03:52 PM
I think the fact that 1Jn 1:6-7 appears, on the face of it, to say something completely different to 1Jn 1:8-9 shows that things aren't as obvious as we might like to think. With that in mind I think it's safe to say that the discussion is rapidly going to turn into a question of our interpretation of Scripture rather than necessarily the precise form of words.

So, with that in mind, my understanding of the text is that if we say we have no sin (i.e we do not sin at all) we deceive ourselves. If we confess our sins they are forgiven by God. 1Jn3:6 is, in my understanding, saying that if we abide in God we do not habitually sin.

Going on to 1Jn 3:8, "he who sins is of the devil (NKJV)". If we habitually sin we are effectively in the devil's camp, that is to say that if we sin freely and liberally and with no regard to the consequences it is reasonable to ask if we genuinely know Jesus Christ at all.

I believe this allows the passages to complement each other. To be honest I believe what you are suggesting would either require them to contradict each other - saying that as Christians we cannot sin while at the same time saying we deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin (ironically introducing sin into the equation by being untruthful), or require that 1Jn 1:8-9 refers to sin before becoming a Christian and that after being saved we are incapable of sinning (which contradicts the experience of every Christian I have ever known, myself included).

Firefighter
Jul 6th 2009, 05:06 PM
Same tired argument...

I have covered this argument ad nauseum in another thread. Why start one here?


My children cannot be compared with the Chldren of God with regards to what is written.

Really!?!? The Bible makes the comparison.

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 07:20 PM
I think the fact that 1Jn 1:6-7 appears, on the face of it, to say something completely different to 1Jn 1:8-9 shows that things aren't as obvious as we might like to think. With that in mind I think it's safe to say that the discussion is rapidly going to turn into a question of our interpretation of Scripture rather than necessarily the precise form of words.

So, with that in mind, my understanding of the text is that if we say we have no sin (i.e we do not sin at all) we deceive ourselves. If we confess our sins they are forgiven by God. 1Jn3:6 is, in my understanding, saying that if we abide in God we do not habitually sin.

Going on to 1Jn 3:8, "he who sins is of the devil (NKJV)". If we habitually sin we are effectively in the devil's camp, that is to say that if we sin freely and liberally and with no regard to the consequences it is reasonable to ask if we genuinely know Jesus Christ at all.

I believe this allows the passages to complement each other. To be honest I believe what you are suggesting would either require them to contradict each other - saying that as Christians we cannot sin while at the same time saying we deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin (ironically introducing sin into the equation by being untruthful), or require that 1Jn 1:8-9 refers to sin before becoming a Christian and that after being saved we are incapable of sinning (which contradicts the experience of every Christian I have ever known, myself included).

I believe the scriptures are saying that we cannot be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, As God is righteous so the children of God should also walk.

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 Jn 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 Jn 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

We are not told that we have no hope but that we must sin, but that we sin not. It goes on to say that if we should sin what we must do.

This the message we have received.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 07:27 PM
Same tired argument...

I have covered this argument ad nauseum in another thread. Why start one here?



Really!?!? The Bible makes the comparison.

Again no scripture to afirm what you are saying so please supply them if you have them, as all that is happening is I supply the scriptures and you say that is not right, so unless you have scriptures regarding those who sin and those that cannot then all you are saying is yours.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Alaska
Jul 6th 2009, 07:28 PM
Same tired argument...

I have covered this argument ad nauseum in another thread. Why start one here?

My children cannot be compared with the Chldren of God with regards to what is written.
My children cannot be compared with the Chldren of God with regards to what is written.

Really!?!? The Bible makes the comparison.


Then place yourself as the judge of all mankind and all their children ever born. Then place yourself responsible for drawing up lines of judgment that all must be judged by, including your own, so that no accusation of being a respector of persons can be levelled at you.

Now the analogy is applicable, in which case your own children are liable for damnation like any one elses.

Zack702
Jul 6th 2009, 08:06 PM
Are we who say we are christians not born of God?

1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Jn 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

In my ears the words "of God" means two no three different things.

Being created by God.
Being for God.
Being unified with God.

If I were to say in words I am of God. It means very little since there are many differences in exactly what it means. To me the saying means I believe in Jesus I believe in his righteousness his eternal life and it's example. It does not mean anything beyond that.

But with regards to verse 10 and verse 9 I do not have to say anything.

We can proclaim who we are with words.
But what we truely are inwardly is what matters.

But it seams to me that all of this hinges on our own opinions of righteousness.
Who is righteous and who is more righteous and who is less righteous.

I think that the bible is saying that Jesus the Son of God is a incorruptable seed that is planted within us. It is watered with faith. And God makes the light to shine on it causing it to be nourished.

I agree that it says sin is evil. And certainly we should not sin.
It is my understanding that it is not according to our opinion but it is hinging on two opinions that are written.
One the belief of God inwardly.
Two love that unitfies and strengthens faith in the former.

When we have the Son of God. It is the Son of God in us. That is the incorruptible seed. When I read whosoever is born of God I know that it is the incorruptable seed that it is talking about.

And we having that seed are known among one another as born again.
But truly the born again will be born again when we rise from the dead.
This comes not from fear of who is or is not righteous.
But comes from belief of the Son of God.

Firefighter
Jul 6th 2009, 08:06 PM
Are you really trying to suggest that the Bible makes no comparisons between the Heavenly Father and His children and earthly fathers and theirs!?!?:o

tango
Jul 6th 2009, 08:19 PM
I believe the scriptures are saying that we cannot be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, As God is righteous so the children of God should also walk.

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 Jn 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 Jn 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

We are not told that we have no hope but that we must sin, but that we sin not. It goes on to say that if we should sin what we must do.

This the message we have received.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

We cannot be simultaneously righteous and unrighteous, but we need to distinguish between the habitual and the momentary. For example, I have never been a smoker, but I have smoked a small number of cigarettes in my lifetime. But, even when I had a lit cigarette in my hand, I would have called myself a non-smoker because I have never habitually smoked.

In the same way as a child of God there are certain parameters I try and keep to as I live my life. But if I fail to keep them (as sometimes happens - I'm human like the rest of us) that doesn't mean they cease to apply to me, nor does it mean I cease to be a child of God. Just as I could be a non-smoker with a lit cigarette in my mouth, so I can be a righteous person who has slipped up.

In your original post you said that the passages in 1John showed that "a child of God cannot sin". This is where I believe the problem lies, I believe your original assertion is incorrect and that a correct assertion would be that a child of God cannot habitually sin. From there it seems to me that everything else falls back into place.

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2009, 08:24 PM
Are you really trying to suggest that the Bible makes no comparisons between the Heavenly Father and His children and earthly fathers and theirs!?!?:o

Do you have scriptures to afirm what you are asking?

Firstfruits

Firefighter
Jul 6th 2009, 08:35 PM
I have scriptures to affirm what I am saying. Answer the question. Wait! I forgot, you don't do that...

Alaska
Jul 6th 2009, 08:39 PM
Are you really trying to suggest that the Bible makes no comparisons between the Heavenly Father and His children and earthly fathers and theirs!?!?:o


There is an extent that someone may go in applying a certain aspect of the analogy between the heavenly father and an earthly father that may contradict the bigger picture concerning God judging his own children; in which judgement some of them will be rejected and not go home.
Your post is slightly slanderous since no one has gotten anywhere near suggesting that the scriptures do not draw a comparison.

But to take one comparison and assume that all imaginable other comparisons are equally applicable is erroneous.
Such as, a godly father will never burn his own child: therefore it is impossible for a child of God to backslide and get to that state, where, in judgement, God is forced, by his commitment and justice to not be a respector of persons, to condemn that child.

Firefighter
Jul 6th 2009, 09:15 PM
So we do not see earthly examples of that in God's law!?!?Maybe around the part where God instructs the Jews to take their rebellious children outside the city gates and stone them?

How about Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5? Are parents exempt from those instructions when nit pertains to their children?

Alaska
Jul 6th 2009, 09:40 PM
Christianity should be known by its followers experiencing a newness of life and freedom from sin. A "believer" not overcoming sin should be looked at by others as sadly having been overcome by the devil somehow and not walking in the Spirit.
Not sinning as spoken by John is in the context of walking in the Spirit, which is what a believer is born again by.

So the generally accepted norm that being a Christian does not necessarily equate to that believer being enabled to live an overcoming life over sin is a denial of Christianity.
How can we expect our young Christians to experience the available overcoming power over sin while as they are told the Gospel message declares that they are to accept defeat?
Any sin that a believer commits should be seen as shameful and a serious falling short of the basic purpose for which Jesus came.

Someone may say, "but we don't always walk in the Spirit", as though that is what the reality is and no one can do any thing about it.

Why does not a person always walk in the Spirit and in that state not fulfil the lust of their flesh and of their mind?
Instead of accepting the demonic inspired excuse that that is just how it is, why not call it for what it is?
The spirit that works in the children of disobedience is responsible for all such times a Christian does not walk in the Spirit. The Devil has taken control in those times.

By taking the realistic attitude in light of what Jesus' death and resurrection means, and regard such failures to walk in the Spirit as inexcusable and victories for the devil, there would be far fewer such backslidings we see encouraged by the Christ denying doctrine that declares as though undeniable that a Christian has to sin.

Firefighter
Jul 6th 2009, 09:55 PM
Any sin that a believer commits should be seen as shameful and a serious falling short of the basic purpose for which Jesus came.

I do not know if anyone here disagrees with that.

Sirus
Jul 6th 2009, 11:45 PM
How can a believer 'have sin that is unforgiven'? If they have been to the cross all sin past present and future is forgiven and they are 'in Christ'. As long as their faith remains 'in Him' their forgiveness remains. You cannot maintain forgiveness with works. It is maintained by faith. It is a free gift. If you are In Him you have no sin.Matthew 13:20-22 " but he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. However he has no root in himself, but indures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
He who received seed among thorns is he who hears the word, and the worries of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."

These refers to people who are born again that i would say did not understand the true concept of Christianity for the reason that they were not well taught or they did not seek to understand the seriousness of it. meaning by so doing these people are considered as sinners until they sincerely see the essence of repentance and therefore repent.
You find Christians that sin willfully and don't even feel remorse when they do so, such people have nullified the word of God as a result the holy spirit does not have strength to convict them of sin.
This is what i call unforgiven sin to someone that is given the privileges that he does not consider.You are agreeing with me. Yes. I said faith must remain. Although your example does not speak of born again believers.

Walstib
Jul 7th 2009, 12:55 AM
There is no need to demand things from each other here.

Odds are all participating have scripture in mind and reasoning behind their words. Flawed or not, taking the time to explain one's own position will work better for a conversation than assuming each others.

Please answer each others direct questions specifically as best one can, or explain why you can't, or don't bother responding. :)

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Seems to me the biggest point of contention is if we are bound to (have to context) follow the desires of the flesh on a daily basis. And how this relates to one's standing in justification.

Is it possible for someone to go a day, month or year.... following the spirit at all times?

Do you need to be justified again every time you sin?

I lean toward yes on the first.....


Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. (1Co 10:11-13 NASB)and no on the second.


But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. (Rom 5:8-11 NASB)

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 06:49 AM
Christianity should be known by its followers experiencing a newness of life and freedom from sin. A "believer" not overcoming sin should be looked at by others as sadly having been overcome by the devil somehow and not walking in the Spirit.
Not sinning as spoken by John is in the context of walking in the Spirit, which is what a believer is born again by.

So the generally accepted norm that being a Christian does not necessarily equate to that believer being enabled to live an overcoming life over sin is a denial of Christianity.
How can we expect our young Christians to experience the available overcoming power over sin while as they are told the Gospel message declares that they are to accept defeat?
Any sin that a believer commits should be seen as shameful and a serious falling short of the basic purpose for which Jesus came.

Someone may say, "but we don't always walk in the Spirit", as though that is what the reality is and no one can do any thing about it.

Why does not a person always walk in the Spirit and in that state not fulfil the lust of their flesh and of their mind?
Instead of accepting the demonic inspired excuse that that is just how it is, why not call it for what it is?
The spirit that works in the children of disobedience is responsible for all such times a Christian does not walk in the Spirit. The Devil has taken control in those times.

By taking the realistic attitude in light of what Jesus' death and resurrection means, and regard such failures to walk in the Spirit as inexcusable and victories for the devil, there would be far fewer such backslidings we see encouraged by the Christ denying doctrine that declares as though undeniable that a Christian has to sin.

Amen Alaska!!!!

We cannot say that we are abiding or following God and sin. If we abide in the truth we cannot sin.If we stray from the truth or the righteous way we will sin.

The whole point is "He that ABIDES"

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 07:54 AM
I have scriptures to affirm what I am saying. Answer the question. Wait! I forgot, you don't do that...

Sory I thought that was something you wanted to put across, to Alaska, and just wanted to know if you had scriptures regarding what you have asked Alaska.

1 Cor 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Because you do not supply scriptures with your questions or replies then we have no choice but to put what is written above what you say.

It is not enough to say you do not agree unless you can show according to the scriptures why you do not agree.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firefighter
Jul 7th 2009, 11:22 AM
I am too busy trying to provide the correct context to all of the prooftexts you post.;)

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 12:00 PM
I am too busy trying to provide the correct context to all of the prooftexts you post.;)

Why not start at the begining?

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1 Jn 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you agree that we do not all abide in the light, and those that do not abide in the light sin, and those that sin are of the Devil?

Knowing that all unrighteousness is sin, then whoever sins is not of God. What therefore prevents us from keeping ourselves from sin?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firefighter
Jul 7th 2009, 12:24 PM
Both words for sinneth in the Greek are words that denote walking in or walking about in sin, relaying a constant state of habitual sin.

We have cover both of these verses before.

Firefighter
Jul 7th 2009, 12:26 PM
If my translation of the Greek is wrong, by all means show me. If not you have to accept the cold hard fact that it is not talking about the occasional sin but a repeated, continuous habit of sinning.

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 12:50 PM
If my translation of the Greek is wrong, by all means show me. If not you have to accept the cold hard fact that it is not talking about the occasional sin but a repeated, continuous habit of sinning.

If one that is said to be a child of God commits one sin and that sin happens to be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is there still a difference as it was just the one sin?

Apply that to murder, lying or the other works of the flesh that may be done occasionaly, do we expect God to treat us all the same?

What are the consequences of occasional unrighteousness?

Firstfruits

Firefighter
Jul 7th 2009, 12:58 PM
PLEASE debate me. See other thread for details.

Vhayes
Jul 7th 2009, 01:12 PM
First Fruits, when I say I sin daily, I am serious. I do. But maybe we view "sin" differently. To me, mental attitude sins are the root cause of all blatant or overt sin.

Worry about how we will pay the bills is a sin - we are not trusting our heavenly Father to provide for our needs.

Looking at someone and thinking what a terrible person they are is a sin. We are allowing pride to take place in the inner recesses of our heart and saying in effect that we are "better" when in reality, we are not. We are all sinners and totally unworthy of God's love.

When I sit in traffic and become impatient, i am telling God that I think I am more important than the rest of the drivers - again, pride and vanity.

When we become angry with another person we have in effect murdered them in our heart according to Jesus. Usually we become angry with another person because we perceive them as having done something to cause us discomfort - and we should pray for them.

When we walk past a person who has no food and no way of getting food while we are on our way to lunch, we are sinning. We are placing self above someone in true need.

Mental attitudes, heart attitudes - those are at the root of all sin. And to me, pride and vanity are the two that are most insidious. They'll creep up on you when you least expect it.

I'm not sure if that helps explain what I mean by sin or not. I hope so. While I have never committed murder in the sense someone died, I have certainly been angry as all get out with a fellow human in the past. I've worried. I've been impatient. I've been thoughtless in regards to other people's needs. All of which are sins in my book.

Thanks for reading all of this -
V

Firefighter
Jul 7th 2009, 01:27 PM
Jezebel!!!;)


:rofl:


Love ya Mom!

Vhayes
Jul 7th 2009, 01:31 PM
Jezebel!!!;)


:rofl:


Love ya Mom!
You make me laugh, you goofy kid! I love you too!

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 01:57 PM
First Fruits, when I say I sin daily, I am serious. I do. But maybe we view "sin" differently. To me, mental attitude sins are the root cause of all blatant or overt sin.

Worry about how we will pay the bills is a sin - we are not trusting our heavenly Father to provide for our needs. Who does not worry about paying bills or about our jobs? is it however a sin?

Looking at someone and thinking what a terrible person they are is a sin. We are allowing pride to take place in the inner recesses of our heart and saying in effect that we are "better" when in reality, we are not. We are all sinners and totally unworthy of God's love. Is it the sin you hate or the person?

When I sit in traffic and become impatient, i am telling God that I think I am more important than the rest of the drivers - again, pride and vanity. Are you really thinking that you are more important or is it that you are late?

When we become angry with another person we have in effect murdered them in our heart according to Jesus. Usually we become angry with another person because we perceive them as having done something to cause us discomfort - and we should pray for them. Did Jesus murder in the temple when he threw them out for making his house a den of thieves?

When we walk past a person who has no food and no way of getting food while we are on our way to lunch, we are sinning. We are placing self above someone in true need. Are we able to help all that are in need?

Mental attitudes, heart attitudes - those are at the root of all sin. And to me, pride and vanity are the two that are most insidious. They'll creep up on you when you least expect it. If what you have described so far is what you are speaking of then is it not how we apply or face each situation?

I'm not sure if that helps explain what I mean by sin or not. I hope so. While I have never committed murder in the sense someone died, I have certainly been angry as all get out with a fellow human in the past. I've worried. I've been impatient. I've been thoughtless in regards to other people's needs. All of which are sins in my book. You used a very important word here "In the past" so how are you today?

Thanks for reading all of this -
V

It seems as though you have taken a lot of what you are going through has made you believe you are sinning when you are not.

This scripture would be useful but it does not really apply to what you have said.

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is more your faith that needs building .

1 Cor 10:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Heb 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jas 1:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

Jas 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1 Pet 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

2 Pet 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Think on these things.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 7th 2009, 02:12 PM
Hi First Fruits -

I'll ask that you be patient and allow me to answer these a few at a time.



Worry about how we will pay the bills is a sin - we are not trusting our heavenly Father to provide for our needs. Who does not worry about paying bills or about our jobs? is it however a sin?

Is it a sin to worry?
Philippians 4
6 - Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

Matthew 6
31 - "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
32 - "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 - "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 - "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Looking at these scriptures, I would say most definitely worry is a sin. You are missing the mark God has set - one in which He says He will take care of you. When you worry, you are casting doubt on God's ability to provide.


Looking at someone and thinking what a terrible person they are is a sin. We are allowing pride to take place in the inner recesses of our heart and saying in effect that we are "better" when in reality, we are not. We are all sinners and totally unworthy of God's love. Is it the sin you hate or the person?
I don't hate. But there was a time I certainly felt superior. And that is a sin anyway you slice it.


When I sit in traffic and become impatient, i am telling God that I think I am more important than the rest of the drivers - again, pride and vanity. Are you really thinking that you are more important or is it that you are late?
Doesn't it boil down to the same thing? I'm late. I matter. I need to get moving? I, I, I....

I'll try to address the rest later today - work calls!
V

Firefighter
Jul 7th 2009, 02:13 PM
Why will you not debate me?:cry:

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 03:45 PM
Hi First Fruits -

I'll ask that you be patient and allow me to answer these a few at a time.



Is it a sin to worry?
Philippians 4
6 - Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

Matthew 6
31 - "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
32 - "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 - "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 - "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Does it say it is a sin?

Looking at these scriptures, I would say most definitely worry is a sin. You are missing the mark God has set - one in which He says He will take care of you. When you worry, you are casting doubt on God's ability to provide.

What happens when we are tempted and tried and persecuted?


I don't hate. But there was a time I certainly felt superior. And that is a sin anyway you slice it.

What is it that says you are superior, those that belong to God are special!!!!!

Doesn't it boil down to the same thing? I'm late. I matter. I need to get moving? I, I, I....

Why is it a sin are you saying that if you have an appointment that it is ok to be late?

I'll try to address the rest later today - work calls!
V

Are you doing any of the following?

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 7th 2009, 03:53 PM
I now understand why you can say you have no sin. Our definitions are totally different.

Is worry a sin? Well, if Jesus told us NOT to worry, I would guess He meant NOT to worry.

V

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 7th 2009, 04:24 PM
Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Proverbs 20:9

---------------------------------------------------------------------

If I could look you in the eyes ... 'one on one'... I could tell you 'whose' child you are... thats almost impossible here sitting next to a computer.. and typing back and forth... but one on one.. awe.. thats where the rubber hits the road......and looking into your eyes.. and observing the eye and the area around it 'forehead' etc...... then I would discern and tell you 'whose child you are'.. and 'which' Light is living in the 'house'.. your.. body


For Jesus has taught me that... and I"ve learned well from Him.. and He is the only one who could of taught me this....

For the 'Light of the Body' is the 'eye'...... take heed which Light is in you.. for if the light which is in you be darkness.. then How Great is that Darkness!

for even satan himself comes masquerading as an angel of light... its no marvel to me and it certainly doesn't suprise me at all... that he comes 'preaching' Scripture.. using Scripture to twist and divert/pervert the Truth.. for he is a master theologian and spiritual magician.. making things 'appear' as though they are.. yet they are not... and he will possess and use his own 'tares'.. weeds.. his own teachers, preachers, evangelists.. etc.. those he has planted to trick and pervert...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Partaker of Christ
Jul 7th 2009, 08:19 PM
Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Proverbs 20:9

---------------------------------------------------------------------

If I could look you in the eyes ... 'one on one'... I could tell you 'whose' child you are... thats almost impossible here sitting next to a computer.. and typing back and forth... but one on one.. awe.. thats where the rubber hits the road......and looking into your eyes.. and observing the eye and the area around it 'forehead' etc...... then I would discern and tell you 'whose child you are'.. and 'which' Light is living in the 'house'.. your.. body


For Jesus has taught me that... and I"ve learned well from Him.. and He is the only one who could of taught me this....

For the 'Light of the Body' is the 'eye'...... take heed which Light is in you.. for if the light which is in you be darkness.. then How Great is that Darkness!

for even satan himself comes masquerading as an angel of light... its no marvel to me and it certainly doesn't suprise me at all... that he comes 'preaching' Scripture.. using Scripture to twist and divert/pervert the Truth.. for he is a master theologian and spiritual magician.. making things 'appear' as though they are.. yet they are not... and he will possess and use his own 'tares'.. weeds.. his own teachers, preachers, evangelists.. etc.. those he has planted to trick and pervert...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep the eye single, always looking to the light, as He is the True Light.

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 08:34 PM
I now understand why you can say you have no sin. Our definitions are totally different.

Is worry a sin? Well, if Jesus told us NOT to worry, I would guess He meant NOT to worry.

V


With regards to the following scriptures are they things that will affect us all in some way? Is suffering a sin? Is it unrighteous to worry?

Rom 8:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

2 Cor 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

As I said before I believe it faith that needs building.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 7th 2009, 08:39 PM
First Fruits - my faith is in He Who bought me and paid for me.

There is nothing at all wrong with my faith. I have been refined in more fires that most people can imagine and am stronger for it.

So, please - do not presume.

Thank you -
V

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 08:41 PM
Keep the eye single, always looking to the light, as He is the True Light.

Amen Partaker of Christ!!!!!!

Walk in the light and be of one mind.

Jn 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Phil 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2009, 08:48 PM
First Fruits - my faith is in He Who bought me and paid for me.

There is nothing at all wrong with my faith. I have been refined in more fires that most people can imagine and am stronger for it.

So, please - do not presume.

Thank you -
V

I do not want to presume however from what you have said you do not seem to sure of yourself and what you class as sin, this is not as such according to the scriptures.

Follow the light and you shall not walk in the darkness.

May God continue to strengthen you.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 8th 2009, 06:43 AM
If we love one another as Christ has commanded us, we abide in the light there is no cause for us to stumble. if we therefore believe that love fulfils the law of Christ and we keep his commands, if we teach otherwise, are we walking in the light, are we truly children of God?

1 Jn 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1 Jn 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1 Jn 2:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 Jn 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 Jn 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1 Jn 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1 Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 Jn 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1 Jn 4:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1 Jn 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Whose children are we?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 8th 2009, 07:44 PM
I do not want to presume however from what you have said you do not seem to sure of yourself and what you class as sin, this is not as such according to the scriptures.

Follow the light and you shall not walk in the darkness.

May God continue to strengthen you.

Firstfruits
Hi First Fruits -

I've thought about this a bit. One part of me says to walk away and another part says to respond - we'll see how it goes. You are someone I have grown to respect in my time here on the board, so I would really like to try and explain to you what I think. You don't have to agree at all - just have an understanding of where I am "coming from".

I am NOT sure of myself for starters. The only One I am sure of is Christ and His unflagging love for me. When left to my own devices, I have a way of reallllllllly messing things up. So you are right, I am unsure of me but very, very sure of Him.

Jesus told us to not be concerned about what to eat or what to wear. One of the fruits of the Spirit is peace. To me, worry and anxiety is the exact opposite of those. No where did Jesus command us to worry - as a matter of fact, His command is to love. If you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind, you will trust Him to care for your daily needs. To do otherwise is to doubt Him - and that doubt is not a reflection of a perfect love. It is, therefore, a sin. It is falling short of the mark - missing the mark.

Worry is a mental attitude sin. Feeling superior to another is a mental attitude sin - and what did Jesus say about mental and heart attitudes?
Matthew 15
19" - For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

He also said:
Mathhew 5
21" - You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22 - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.


The intensity of the "punishment" is exactly backwards form the "crime" from a human perspective.

Murder - Liable to the court
anger - guilty before the court
casting aspersions on a mans character - guilty before the Supreme Court
Showing disrespect - fiery hell

So - what does that tell you? Jesus judged the heart attitude and not the overt sin. Why? I think it is because the mental attitude is what "drives the bus" over the course of a lifetime.

I hope this helps explain my thoughts a bit better -
V

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 8th 2009, 08:18 PM
Hi First Fruits -

I've thought about this a bit. One part of me says to walk away and another part says to respond - we'll see how it goes. You are someone I have grown to respect in my time here on the board, so I would really like to try and explain to you what I think. You don't have to agree at all - just have an understanding of where I am "coming from".

I am NOT sure of myself for starters. The only One I am sure of is Christ and His unflagging love for me. When left to my own devices, I have a way of reallllllllly messing things up. So you are right, I am unsure of me but very, very sure of Him.

Jesus told us to not be concerned about what to eat or what to wear. One of the fruits of the Spirit is peace. To me, worry and anxiety is the exact opposite of those. No where did Jesus command us to worry - as a matter of fact, His command is to love. If you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind, you will trust Him to care for your daily needs. To do otherwise is to doubt Him - and that doubt is not a reflection of a perfect love. It is, therefore, a sin. It is falling short of the mark - missing the mark.

Worry is a mental attitude sin. Feeling superior to another is a mental attitude sin - and what did Jesus say about mental and heart attitudes?
Matthew 15
19" - For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

He also said:
Mathhew 5
21" - You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22 - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.


The intensity of the "punishment" is exactly backwards form the "crime" from a human perspective.

Murder - Liable to the court
anger - guilty before the court
casting aspersions on a mans character - guilty before the Supreme Court
Showing disrespect - fiery hell

So - what does that tell you? Jesus judged the heart attitude and not the overt sin. Why? I think it is because the mental attitude is what "drives the bus" over the course of a lifetime.

I hope this helps explain my thoughts a bit better -
V

Excellent post!


Correct.. the mental attitude... controlled and led by the heart..

a heart that is following Christ.. Led of the Holy Ghost...

or the god of this world.. arrogant and self righteous... pompous...

Jesus said , ye shall know them by their fruits...

and Paul told believers...


let this Mind be in you.... the mind of Christ... which he states..

True Believers Have.. the mind of Christ..

but if the 'heart' is not In Christ.. and Led of His Spirit.. then whats controlling and leading the mind.. if its not he Spirit of Christ??

when reading and searching and teaching.. the Scripture does not come alive.. Enlightenment thru the Spirit's Revelation as you read the Word is not there.. it's just that a 'dry word'.. not alive... just 'logos'..

but the 'logos' is ALIVE Today...

and Christ told many during His Day.. that 'you search the Scripture.. divulge and teach and try to explain about the Messiah and the Kingdom... you do these things think you have Eternal Life..

and Eternal Life was standing right in front of them.. yet they missed.. because the 'heart/mind'.. was not right and they were not led of the Spirit..

Firstfruits
Jul 8th 2009, 08:27 PM
Hi First Fruits -

I've thought about this a bit. One part of me says to walk away and another part says to respond - we'll see how it goes. You are someone I have grown to respect in my time here on the board, so I would really like to try and explain to you what I think. You don't have to agree at all - just have an understanding of where I am "coming from".

I am NOT sure of myself for starters. The only One I am sure of is Christ and His unflagging love for me. When left to my own devices, I have a way of reallllllllly messing things up. So you are right, I am unsure of me but very, very sure of Him.

Jesus told us to not be concerned about what to eat or what to wear. One of the fruits of the Spirit is peace. To me, worry and anxiety is the exact opposite of those. No where did Jesus command us to worry - as a matter of fact, His command is to love. If you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind, you will trust Him to care for your daily needs. To do otherwise is to doubt Him - and that doubt is not a reflection of a perfect love. It is, therefore, a sin. It is falling short of the mark - missing the mark.

Worry is a mental attitude sin. Feeling superior to another is a mental attitude sin - and what did Jesus say about mental and heart attitudes?
Matthew 15
19" - For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

He also said:
Mathhew 5
21" - You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22 - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.


The intensity of the "punishment" is exactly backwards form the "crime" from a human perspective.

Murder - Liable to the court
anger - guilty before the court
casting aspersions on a mans character - guilty before the Supreme Court
Showing disrespect - fiery hell

So - what does that tell you? Jesus judged the heart attitude and not the overt sin. Why? I think it is because the mental attitude is what "drives the bus" over the course of a lifetime.

I hope this helps explain my thoughts a bit better -
V

Thank you for being open with me, I understand what you are saying. What I cannot understand is if you truly believe and have faith as you say you do then you must also know the danger of doubt;

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

I hope that the following will help you.

2 Cor 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Cor 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

It Christ that lives in us that give us strength. His grace is sufficient for you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits