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Firstfruits
Jul 14th 2009, 07:49 AM
With regards to the following scriptures what will cause those that are in Christ to be cast out?

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jn 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jn 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 14th 2009, 10:44 AM
With regards to the following, those that commit iniquity/sin are not abiding in Christ.

Jn 8:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Jn 15:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.


Mt 7:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mt 13:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mt 23:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

We cannot be both!!!!!!!

Lk 13:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 14th 2009, 03:05 PM
Mt 23:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


We cannot be both!!!!!!!

Our Lord has not suggested that we could or would be both. Evil and righteousness cannot abide together. Our Lord is speaking of those who are very religious but do not have Christ as their Saviour. This is exactly what the Pharisees were without reservation. Binding heavy burdens on others while not lifting a finger themselves. Commanding to eat or not to eat and making great pretense about their own holiness all the while they were lying cheating and stealing from God.

Those who have been placed under the blood of Christ are never again subject to condemnation. Those that make their own righteousness and deny the blood are never free from condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Jul 14th 2009, 03:11 PM
Our Lord has not suggested that we could or would be both. Evil and righteousness cannot abide together. Our Lord is speaking of those who are very religious but do not have Christ as their Saviour. This is exactly what the Pharisees were without reservation. Binding heavy burdens on others while not lifting a finger themselves. Commanding to eat or not to eat and making great pretense about their own holiness all the while they were lying cheating and stealing from God.

Those who have been placed under the blood of Christ are never again subject to condemnation. Those that make their own righteousness and deny the blood are never free from condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Does that apply even if they have committed iniquity?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 14th 2009, 03:20 PM
Does that apply even if they have committed iniquity?

Firstfruits
False professors have no part in the kingdom. The blood of Christ cleanseth us from all iniquity and unrighteousness. Those who come to Christ He will in no wise cast out.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Jul 14th 2009, 03:23 PM
False professors have no part in the kingdom. The blood of Christ cleanseth us from all iniquity and unrighteousness. Those who come to Christ He will in no wise cast out.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are you saying that those that claim to be in Christ and sin whilst they are there, are false professors?

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jul 14th 2009, 03:29 PM
Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. We receive Christ by faith and walk by faith. We are in Him by faith. Faith is substance and evident not just something said.


Mt 7:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Lk 13:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. Again faith that is dead is not faith.


Mt 13:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;That's kingdom of heaven not God parable of the sower. In the kingdom of God parable (Luk 8) there is no such verse because there are no tares (children of the wicked one) in the kingdom of God.


Mt 23:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Again faith that is dead is not faith.

notuptome
Jul 14th 2009, 03:42 PM
Are you saying that those that claim to be in Christ and sin whilst they are there, are false professors?

Firstfruits
Absolutely not. We who are in Christ when we sin are not under condemnation unto death like the unsaved. We as believers are subject to the judgment seat of Christ where we lose rewards. Our works are put through the fire not our souls.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

John146
Jul 14th 2009, 03:47 PM
With regards to the following, those that commit iniquity/sin are not abiding in Christ.

Jn 8:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Jn 15:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.


Mt 7:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mt 13:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mt 23:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

We cannot be both!!!!!!!

Lk 13:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsCan you be specific about what point you're trying to make in this thread? Are you trying to say that if we sin even once after we're saved then we will be cast out?

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2009, 08:25 AM
Absolutely not. We who are in Christ when we sin are not under condemnation unto death like the unsaved. We as believers are subject to the judgment seat of Christ where we lose rewards. Our works are put through the fire not our souls.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are we not all under the same condemnation until we have confessed our sin?

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2009, 08:28 AM
We receive Christ by faith and walk by faith. We are in Him by faith. Faith is substance and evident not just something said.

Again faith that is dead is not faith.

That's kingdom of heaven not God parable of the sower. In the kingdom of God parable (Luk 8) there is no such verse because there are no tares (children of the wicked one) in the kingdom of God.

Again faith that is dead is not faith.

No matter how much faith we may have, if we have sin that is not confessed, can faith alone save us?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2009, 08:35 AM
Absolutely not. We who are in Christ when we sin are not under condemnation unto death like the unsaved. We as believers are subject to the judgment seat of Christ where we lose rewards. Our works are put through the fire not our souls.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Where is the difference when it comes to sin?

Mt 23:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


If we in Christ do the same sins as those that are not in Christ are we not worse than those that do not know.

1 Pet 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The Gospel is the same for all, sin is the same for all.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2009, 08:38 AM
Can you be specific about what point you're trying to make in this thread? Are you trying to say that if we sin even once after we're saved then we will be cast out?

What can we expect from God when we are disobedient to his will?

When we sin are not being disobedient to Gods will?

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 15th 2009, 12:35 PM
No matter how much faith we may have, if we have sin that is not confessed, can faith alone save us?

Firstfruits

What if you commit a sin in ignorance? How are you going to confess such a sin if you are ignorant of it? Secondly, what if you died in the process of sinning and didn't have an opportunity to confess?

Doomed?

I do not believe salvation is dependant upon me doing anything like confessing every single sin that's ever been committed. In fact, Paul speaks in Ephesians like redemption and forgiveness of sin is something we have (past tense) in Christ Jesus . . . not something we get by confessing each individual sin.

Ephesians 1:7-10
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Notice Paul says we "have" redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins . . .

Not "In Him we get redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins . . . "

VerticalReality
Jul 15th 2009, 12:37 PM
What can we expect from God when we are disobedient to his will?

Since Christians are disobedient constantly I'm resting in the hope of a little mercy and grace.

notuptome
Jul 15th 2009, 01:14 PM
Are we not all under the same condemnation until we have confessed our sin?

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Firstfruits
Jesus washed the feet of His disciples not their entire body. They were clean yet not every bit to wit. John 13:10

A person who has received Christ as his Saviour does not sin again unto condemnation. 1 John 2:1 we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ. Jesus has broken the yoke of bondage that sin had on us. We are free in Him to walk in newness of life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2009, 02:00 PM
Jesus washed the feet of His disciples not their entire body. They were clean yet not every bit to wit. John 13:10

A person who has received Christ as his Saviour does not sin again unto condemnation. 1 John 2:1 we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ. Jesus has broken the yoke of bondage that sin had on us. We are free in Him to walk in newness of life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Why does a person that has received Christ still yield themsevlves to sin, does it mean that sin still has a hold on them even though the bodage of sin has been broken?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 15th 2009, 05:40 PM
Why does a person that has received Christ still yield themsevlves to sin, does it mean that sin still has a hold on them even though the bodage of sin has been broken?

We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. 2 Cor 4:7 Until we receive our glorified bodies made like Christ's glorified body we are subject to the frailties of the flesh. Why do Christians sin? Why do Christians get sick? Why do Christians die? Indeed. Why when we are converted are we not taken immediately into heaven?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2009, 07:33 PM
We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. 2 Cor 4:7 Until we receive our glorified bodies made like Christ's glorified body we are subject to the frailties of the flesh. Why do Christians sin? Why do Christians get sick? Why do Christians die? Indeed. Why when we are converted are we not taken immediately into heaven?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Does that mean that mans will is stronger than the will of God?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Is Gods grace not enough for us, do we not believe enough?

2 Cor 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jul 15th 2009, 11:30 PM
No matter how much faith we may have, if we have sin that is not confessed, can faith alone save us?

FirstfruitsOf course. What else would you suggest saves us?

Walstib
Jul 15th 2009, 11:37 PM
I figure it is God that saves us, by grace, through faith.


For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NASB)

Sirus
Jul 15th 2009, 11:58 PM
Grace must be received through faith.

BroRog
Jul 16th 2009, 12:05 AM
With regards to the following scriptures what will cause those that are in Christ to be cast out?

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jn 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jn 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Verse 6 does not apply to those in Christ. A person in Christ would continue to abide in him.

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 08:00 AM
Of course. What else would you suggest saves us?

So if an unsaved person simply believes and does nothing else, no repenting or confessing, they will be saved?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 08:04 AM
Verse 6 does not apply to those in Christ. A person in Christ would continue to abide in him.

With regards to this scripture unless a man has been in Christ then he cannot be cast off, can he?

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 08:07 AM
Grace must be received through faith.

Rom 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So unless we have heard the word of God, in what are we to have faith?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 08:10 AM
Of course. What else would you suggest saves us?

According to the word of God repentance and confession of sins, that is if we believe the Gospel message we have heard.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 16th 2009, 11:55 AM
With regards to the following scriptures what will cause those that are in Christ to be cast out?

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.

Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jn 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jn 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Assumptions: As I have highlighted the very 1st line of your opening position, and gave it purple to the focus that you have qualified that are IN CHRIST... then there is nothing that will separate those who are IN CHRIST....

Romans 8:35-39
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So then, to whom does John 15 that you are using as your basis apply to?

So.... the better question is...'What make's one 'in Christ'?"


For His glory...

RbG

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 01:48 PM
Assumptions: As I have highlighted the very 1st line of your opening position, and gave it purple to the focus that you have qualified that are IN CHRIST... then there is nothing that will separate those who are IN CHRIST....

Romans 8:35-39
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So then, to whom does John 15 that you are using as your basis apply to?

So.... the better question is...'What make's one 'in Christ'?"


For His glory...

RbG

Those things you have mentioned are not sin but things that we must endure. That is not the same as sin which God has said separates us from God.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jul 16th 2009, 02:39 PM
With regards to this scripture unless a man has been in Christ then he cannot be cast off, can he?

Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


The phrase "in Christ" comes from Paul. He uses it to indicate those in whom the spirit is at work, which are also those who will go from being foreknown to being glorified. It is contrary to Paul's view that anyone "in Christ" would not survive to see Christ glorified and to stand before him to receive the reward of eternal life.

Therefore, if a man does not abide in Jesus in the way Jesus means "abide", he is not in Christ in the way Paul means "in Christ."

BroRog
Jul 16th 2009, 02:43 PM
Those things you have mentioned are not sin but things that we must endure. That is not the same as sin which God has said separates us from God.

Firstfruits

Your initial post talked about abiding in Jesus, which has nothing at all to do with sin or the avoidance of sin. To abide in Jesus is to continue to believe his teaching. Conversely, to not abide in Jesus is to repudiate his teaching.

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 02:44 PM
The phrase "in Christ" comes from Paul. He uses it to indicate those in whom the spirit is at work, which are also those who will go from being foreknown to being glorified. It is contrary to Paul's view that anyone "in Christ" would not survive to see Christ glorified and to stand before him to receive the reward of eternal life.

Therefore, if a man does not abide in Jesus in the way Jesus means "abide", he is not in Christ in the way Paul means "in Christ."

So what is it that would cause man not to abide in Christ as Paul means?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 02:45 PM
Your initial post talked about abiding in Jesus, which has nothing at all to do with sin or the avoidance of sin. To abide in Jesus is to continue to believe his teaching. Conversely, to not abide in Jesus is to repudiate his teaching.

Are we abiding in Jesus when we sin?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 16th 2009, 03:41 PM
The phrase "in Christ" comes from Paul. He uses it to indicate those in whom the spirit is at work, which are also those who will go from being foreknown to being glorified. It is contrary to Paul's view that anyone "in Christ" would not survive to see Christ glorified and to stand before him to receive the reward of eternal life.

Therefore, if a man does not abide in Jesus in the way Jesus means "abide", he is not in Christ in the way Paul means "in Christ."
Indeed do not the tares abide in the same field as the wheat? Yet when the harvest is made the tares are cast out and burned. The tares were never wheat and the wheat was never tares.

When we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ we are reconciled to God. Our sin account has been settled and we are judged as righteous through Christ. Our legal obligation has been satisfied. There is no double jeopardy.

Any faith we have apart from the word of God is not saving faith. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow but that will not bring me to a saving knowledge of Christ. To believe on Christ is to believe all that the scripture teaches about Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 16th 2009, 06:03 PM
Those things you have mentioned are not sin but things that we must endure. That is not the same as sin which God has said separates us from God.

Firstfruits

Hi Ff,

Your theology is speaking, not the words of scripture written. If one is 'in Christ', there is nothing that changes that.

Obedience is not a cause of salvation, but is a result from it. Endurance doesn't cement one's salvation; endurance is because of one's salvation.... for again a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and adding because of God -- least any man should boast. There is no work a man can do to earn -- to hold on to -- or keep -- his salvation; but by our works we are known... :hmm: Ephesians 2:8-10. It is a work of God within a man that brings him life, the 2nd birth, the new creation, the eternal life with Christ, and any good work a man does is because of His Spirit of effect to walk in the works that have been prepared before hand.


What is God's, is God's, and the question that still begs to be answered is what does it mean to be "in Christ?"


For within the answer to that question lies the answer to your OP, for if you are 'in Christ', the answer is nothing will cast you out. Period.


Hope your day is going well...

BroRog
Jul 16th 2009, 06:04 PM
Are we abiding in Jesus when we sin?

Firstfruits

Of course. To abide in Jesus is to believe what he has said and to my life to what he taught.

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 06:17 PM
Hi Ff,

Your theology is speaking, not the words of scripture written. If one is 'in Christ', there is nothing that changes that.

Obedience is not a cause of salvation, but is a result from it. Endurance doesn't cement one's salvation; endurance is because of one's salvation.... for again a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and adding because of God -- least any man should boast. There is no work a man can do to earn -- to hold on to -- or keep -- his salvation; but by our works we are known... :hmm: Ephesians 2:8-10. It is a work of God within a man that brings him life, the 2nd birth, the new creation, the eternal life with Christ, and any good work a man does is because of His Spirit of effect to walk in the works that have been prepared before hand.


What is God's, is God's, and the question that still begs to be answered is what does it mean to be "in Christ?"


For within the answer to that question lies the answer to your OP, for if you are 'in Christ', the answer is nothing will cast you out. Period.


Hope your day is going well...


May I ask how what I have said is my theology, according to the scripture these thing are not sin;

Romans 8:35-39
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The one thing we know that does separate us from God is not mentioned, and that is sin. Is this wrong or right?

It has been a good day thanks.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 06:21 PM
Of course. To abide in Jesus is to believe what he has said and to my life to what he taught.

If we therefore abide in the light how do we also at the same time abide in darkness? Jesus is righteous, sin is unrighteous/darkness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 16th 2009, 06:54 PM
One who is saved today is still within his sinful frame, but spiritually, has been born again. Not until Christ returns do those In Christ receive their sinless bodies.

So a child of God still sins, but sin no longer has dominion over him, and by walking in faith, he should sin less...

Peter 1:4-10
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 07:02 PM
One who is saved today is still within his sinful frame, but spiritually, has been born again. Not until Christ returns do those In Christ receive their sinless bodies.

So a child of God still sins, but sin no longer has dominion over him, and by walking in faith, he should sin less...

Peter 1:4-10
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Though we may have the same bodies, we are commanded not to yield to sin, if we are yielding to sin meaning we are doing those things we ought not to do then we are not abiding in Christ. We are disobeying the will of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 16th 2009, 07:04 PM
If we therefore abide in the light how do we also at the same time abide in darkness? Jesus is righteous, sin is unrighteous/darkness.
We do not nor could we abide in darkness since we have received Christ as our Saviour. As we tread the road of life we doubtless will encounter dust upon our feet. Our garmets are white washed in the blood of the Lamb tis only our feet that need washed and He gives us Himself as our example.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 16th 2009, 07:07 PM
Though we may have the same bodies, we are commanded not to yield to sin, if we are yielding to sin meaning we are doing those things we ought not to do then we are not abiding in Christ. We are disobeying the will of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

But Ff,

If you are in Christ, is it your work that saves you?

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 07:22 PM
We do not nor could we abide in darkness since we have received Christ as our Saviour. As we tread the road of life we doubtless will encounter dust upon our feet. Our garmets are white washed in the blood of the Lamb tis only our feet that need washed and He gives us Himself as our example.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If you are walking in the light the only way you can sin is by leaving the light and walking in the dark.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 07:26 PM
But Ff,

If you are in Christ, is it your work that saves you?

It does depend on whether we yield to sin or we yield to God, as we shall be rewarded for the choices we have made concening unrighteousness and righteousness.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 16th 2009, 07:37 PM
It does depend on whether we yield to sin or we yield to God,

Firstfruits



1st things first... You sinless now?

BroRog
Jul 16th 2009, 07:50 PM
If we therefore abide in the light how do we also at the same time abide in darkness? Jesus is righteous, sin is unrighteous/darkness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

light is a metaphor for truth. Just as a light bulb or the sun exposes things as they really are, the truth, specifically the truth Jesus taught, exposes us for who we are.

The enlightenment Jesus brings reveals us, showing us to be sinners. To deny that we are sinners is to retreat into the darkness. When we sin, this doesn't necessarily mean we have retreated into the darkness.

Due to my belief in Jesus, for example, I repudiate my sin, mourn when I do sin, never make excuses for my sin, blame circumstances or other people for my sin. But the reality of living as a sinner on this side of eternal life is that I will occasionally sin. But when I do, I know it is a sin, I continue to mourn over it, and I confess my sin to God in prayer. All the while, I continue to abide in Jesus. I never stopped.

BroRog
Jul 16th 2009, 07:57 PM
It does depend on whether we yield to sin or we yield to God, as we shall be rewarded for the choices we have made concening unrighteousness and righteousness.

Firstfruits

What rewards do you expect to get?

"But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come immediately and sit down to eat'? 8 "But will he not say to him, `Prepare something for me to eat, and [properly] clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'? 9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, `We are unworthy slaves; we have done [only] that which we ought to have done.' " Luke 17:7-10

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 08:50 PM
1st things first... You sinless now?

I am not at this time yielding to sin. My sins are forgiven.

As I said it depends on whether we yield to sin or to God.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 08:59 PM
light is a metaphor for truth. Just as a light bulb or the sun exposes things as they really are, the truth, specifically the truth Jesus taught, exposes us for who we are.

The enlightenment Jesus brings reveals us, showing us to be sinners. To deny that we are sinners is to retreat into the darkness. When we sin, this doesn't necessarily mean we have retreated into the darkness.

Due to my belief in Jesus, for example, I repudiate my sin, mourn when I do sin, never make excuses for my sin, blame circumstances or other people for my sin. But the reality of living as a sinner on this side of eternal life is that I will occasionally sin. But when I do, I know it is a sin, I continue to mourn over it, and I confess my sin to God in prayer. All the while, I continue to abide in Jesus. I never stopped.

How can we be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, which is what you say you are doing by being in Christ and still sinning?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 09:02 PM
What rewards do you expect to get?

"But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come immediately and sit down to eat'? 8 "But will he not say to him, `Prepare something for me to eat, and [properly] clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'? 9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, `We are unworthy slaves; we have done [only] that which we ought to have done.' " Luke 17:7-10

What are the rewards that Christ has promised for those that are holy and those that are unholy?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 16th 2009, 09:11 PM
I am not at this time yielding to sin. My sins are forgiven.

As I said it depends on whether we yield to sin or to God.

Firstfruits

Two comments then,

How do you know you are not yielding to sin, all sins? And second, is the judgment left to you as being sinless?


And the bonus comment, when you do yield to sin, do you need to get saved again?

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2009, 09:22 PM
Two comments then,

How do you know you are not yielding to sin, all sins? And second, is the judgment left to you as being sinless?


And the bonus comment, when you do yield to sin, do you need to get saved again?

Because I am not at this time doing any of the following that we ought not to do?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

If your sins are forgiven are you still unclean/unrighteous?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 16th 2009, 10:08 PM
Because I am not at this time doing any of the following that we ought not to do?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

If your sins are forgiven are you still unclean/unrighteous?

Firstfruits

So Three verses of Romans 13 and you are sinless...

So verse 8 talks about not owning money to any one.... Going out on a limb here by by this I take it you don't have a mortgage then, for if you did, you'be be sinning against 13:8?

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 16th 2009, 11:14 PM
How can we be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, which is what you say you are doing by being in Christ and still sinning?

Firstfruits


are you 'MADE righteous' by doing your good works?

or "by Faith " in what He has accomplished on that Bloody tree..

who is Righteous in the Eyes of God???

what does your heart say to you?

I trust in my own good works.. my own righteousness or


do I trust in What Christ has done for me..

many say 'I believe'... I need to remind some here.. that the devils also believe and tremble... and they do not adhere to sound doctrine.. they present truth and doctrine .. but its slanted.. just a little.. perverted is another good term...

Many say I believe.....

yet then they turn around and are brought under a 'yoke' of bondage.. and live under that yoke and continue to attempt to bring others with them under that bondage........>>>>>'my good works = Righteousness'...

believing its their good works that makes them righteous in the eyes of God...


We are created for good works and its His Good Works we walk in... We walk in those by Faith .. because We believe and 'know' that these are the 'works' He has afore adordained even prior to Him Saving that soul...


True Born Again Christians have an Advocate with the Father.. Jesus the Christ.... God manifest in the flesh...

Man Centered Salvation.. which is so Evident today.. in these last days..... says...>>>>>>>>>>>

1. I come to God on my own.. I make the decision in regards to
the issues of Salvation.

2. It's up to me... and it depends on me 100% to 'keep' myself.....

the ability lies in the power of man.. me me me ,, I I I I I can do
it... God is the bystander.. as I transform myself into the 'image of
God'.....

instead of 'being Kept thru the Power of the Holy Ghost'.. as Peter declares... in these end times.. with the emphasis on God 'keeping' His Own.. He is ABLE and WILL do it...

3. And finally.. the most subtle yet diaboloical seduction...

Believes that he/she can become 'as' God or 'like God'..

believing that he/she can reach a state of perfected sinlessness while still abiding in these 'corrupted', 'mortal','dishonourable', 'weak', natural bodies.... without the Son of Man...'changing' the body ..to the image of the Heavenly... at the Sound of His Voice.. the twinkling of an eye.. at His Coming... which Paul tells us.. and this while he is under the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost...

When looking at man centered salvation... it's beliefs

sounds alot like a few Verses found in the OT..

when one claims

I will exalt my throne..

and I will exalt this and that...

I, I , I , I , I ... Me ,, Me,, Me,,

the power of man and his belief that he/she can become 'like God or as God'...

this the same hiss that is found in the Garden when the 'serpent confronted Eve...

it will be this 'belief system'.. man centered Salvation.. and his/her belief that they can reach 'godhood'...in this flesh/bone....which will lead to the global religious system.... the number of man.. the mark and its system.. 666

How is one Righteous ..?

how is one 'un-righteous'....?

He that hath ears let him/her hear....

BroRog
Jul 17th 2009, 12:07 AM
How can we be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, which is what you say you are doing by being in Christ and still sinning?

Firstfruits

A child of God is righteous in the sense that his or her orientation, perspective, worldview, heart commitments, values, wants, desires, and dreams are focused on the eternal rather than the transitory. The child of God sees the world as God sees it. The child of God mourns over sin, repudiates it, and wants to be free of it. The child of God is righteous in this sense, even as he or she might be in a struggle with sin at the moment.

Sirus
Jul 17th 2009, 01:19 AM
So if an unsaved person simply believes and does nothing else, no repenting or confessing, they will be saved?

Firstfruitsone that believes 'does' them all and are saved. Repentance and confession for the believer is done, and continued belief is all that is required to maintain salvation. If they fall into condemnation/or are at or near apostasy (1Co 11:-27-34; Jam 5:12-20; Act 8:21-23) repentance and confession may again be necessary.

Sirus
Jul 17th 2009, 01:23 AM
Rom 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So unless we have heard the word of God, in what are we to have faith?

FirstfruitsGod through law of conscience (Rom 1:18-32, 2:14), but unfortunately we place our faith in all kinds of things.

faithfulfriend
Jul 17th 2009, 01:26 AM
So Three verses of Romans 13 and you are sinless...

So verse 8 talks about not owning money to any one.... Going out on a limb here by by this I take it you don't have a mortgage then, for if you did, you'be be sinning against 13:8?

True children of God do not commit sin. Those that commit sin are not children of God, but rather just plain old sinners and children of the devil.

Sin separates the children of the devil from the children of God:

1 John 3:10 In this [the issue of sin] the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Romans 7, 1 John 1:8, Romans 3:23 and various other passages that people love to jump to to defend their "sin you must" lifestyle can be easily explained in their proper context.

Sirus
Jul 17th 2009, 01:26 AM
According to the word of God repentance and confession of sins, that is if we believe the Gospel message we have heard.

FirstfruitsI answered this two post up. Trust repentance and confession? No thank you! What if I miss a few thousand in my lifetime? Do you suggest I keep a list and run through it confessing it at the end of the day? What if I die on the way home to do so?

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 17th 2009, 01:33 AM
True children of God do not commit sin. Those that commit sin are not children of God, but rather just plain old sinners and children of the devil.

Sin separates the children of the devil from the children of God:

1 John 3:10 In this [the issue of sin] the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Romans 7, 1 John 1:8, Romans 3:23 and various other passages that people love to jump to to defend their "sin you must" lifestyle can be easily explained in their proper context.

So if one sin is found within you, then you are not a child of God?

faithfulfriend
Jul 17th 2009, 03:16 AM
So if one sin is found within you, then you are not a child of God?

Sin separates man from God. Yes if I were to commit sin, I would no longer be a child of God but rather a sinner (child of the devil).

Sin is a transgression against the law of Almighty God:

I John 3:4 – Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
James 4:17 – Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The Bible commands us in several passages that we are not to sin:

Ezekiel 3:21 – Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.

This scripture says the righteous sin not, therefore if you commit sin, you are not righteous, nor are you living righteously. Sinners live unrighteously, and thus those who commit sin are spiritually dead.

I Corinthians 15:34 – Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Those who are righteous do not sin. This scripture commands us to be righteous, and in order to be righteous we cannot commit sin. Not even one.

I Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

The unrighteous are those who commit sin (I John 5:17 declares unrighteousness is sin)

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

The Bible says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Holiness means living free from sin, and if you are not living free from sin, you will not see the Lord in Heaven.

Matthew 5:8 - Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Only the pure in heart will see God. A pure heart does not commit sin, because the Bible teaches that a wicked heart commits sin. You cannot have a pure heart and a wicked heart at the same time.

Definition of pure: free from corrupt desire, from sin and guilt

John 5:14 – Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Notice that he said sin no more. Christ doesn’t demand anything from us that we cannot do, the Bible says “…I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me…” This includes living free from sin, everyday. We also know the Bible says "his commandments are not grievous" and "if ye love me, keep my commandments"

John 8:11 – She said No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Again, Christ told the woman to “go and sin no more.” Would Christ tell her to do something that she could not do? Absolutely not!

II Corinthians 13:7 – Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

The Bible says that we are to do NO evil. The word “evil” means sin.

II Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows who his people are. If you are a true child of God, you will depart from iniquity just like the scripture says. The word depart means to separate from, to remove from, to desert, to refrain, or to withdraw. If you depart from sin, you are no longer attached to it, or involved with it. It is no longer apart of you, or your life. The word iniquity means sin or unrighteousness. Remember that we read earlier that the righteous sin not!

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This scripture is Christ talking about judgment day. Those who work iniquity (commit sin) will not go into Heaven. God will command them to depart from him.

Lu 13:27 - But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Christ doesn’t even know you if you commit sin. When I say he doesn’t know you, it means that you don’t have a real relationship with him. You cannot commit and know Christ at the same time, it’s impossible.

Isaiah 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

God doesn’t even hear your prayers if you commit sin, unless it is a prayer of repentance. If you pray to God with sin in your life, he doesn’t even hear you. Iniquity (sin) separates a person from God.

John 9:31 - Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

John said we know that God heareth not sinners. If you are living a life of sin, God doesn’t hear you. If you commit sin, you are not saved. Only those who are truly saved can pray to God. God hears the prayers of the righteous only. But the end of this scripture says if you do his will, God will hear you. It’s God’s will that you live free from sin, if you do; God will hear you when you pray.

James 5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The prayer of a righteous man avails much, not the prayer of a sinner. Please remember that if you are a sinner, God does hear the prayer of an individual who is truly repenting of their sins. If you are truly repenting of your sins and asking for forgiveness, you won’t sin anymore. Asking for forgiveness every night is not true repentance. In order to repent, the Bible says you must have godly sorrow. (II Corinthians 7:10) - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. If you are truly sorry for your sins, you wouldn’t commit them anymore. What if everyday I stabbed you with a knife, but then I asked you to please forgive me. Maybe after the 2nd or 3rd time, you would really start to wonder if I was really sorry for what I was doing. If I kept stabbing you every day, after a while you wouldn’t believe me anymore if I said I was sorry. I could say I’m sorry all I wanted to, but if I don’t stop stabbing you, then I’m not really sorry.

Psalms 66:18 - If I regard iniquity (sin) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

If there is sin in your life, God does not hear you.

Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Those who are just (free from sin) don’t have to repent. Why? It’s simple, because they have no sins to repent of, they are living holy and righteous like God wants them to.

Luke 1:74-75 – That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

We are to serve God in holiness and righteousness, all the days of our life. You will not become free from sin after you die, that is a lie. Remember, holiness and righteousness means without sin.

I Peter 3:12 - For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous. It also says his ears are open to their prayers, but it doesn’t say his ear is open to the prayers of a sinner. I want to remind you also that if a person is prayer a real prayer of repentance, God does hear that. But if you are trying to pray with sin in your life, God does not hear you. The very end of this scripture is scary. “The Lord is against them that do evil.” The word evil in this scripture is referring to sin. The Lord is against those who commit sin. That’s scary, I wouldn’t want God against me.

Titus 2:11-12 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

The Bible says that we are to live soberly, righteously (free from sin), and godly in this present world. This present world means today, right now. This present world is the world that you are living in right now, it’s not an eternal world or some afterlife. It means while we are here on Earth right now, we are commanded by the Bible to live righteously and godly.

I John 3:9 – Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

If you are “born again”, you will not commit sin.

I John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that committeth sin is of God? No that’s not what the Bible says. If you commit sin, you are of the Devil. Read the scripture for your self, it isn’t something I made up.

I John 5:18 – We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Whoever is born of God doesn’t sin. Being born of God means being saved. Being saved is a lot more than just “accepting Jesus.” Just believing in Jesus doesn’t accomplish much. The Bible says that the Devils believe in him and tremble.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The Devils believe in Jesus, but yet they are going to Hell. Just because an individual believes in Jesus doesn’t mean they are going to Heaven.

I will now show several scriptures that talk about sin:

Ex 20:20 - And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

Psalms 69:27-28 - Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

This scripture is taking about the book of life. Those who commit iniquity (sin) are blotted out of the book of life (assuming their name was written their previously because they were saved)

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Everyone who commits sin is a slave to it. That’s what the Bible says, and it is true. If people weren’t slaves to their sins, they would have the power to stop sinning completely. But people cannot stop sinning because they really don’t have God in their life.

Romans 6:1 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is Paul talking. He’s asking shall we continue in sin (keep committing sin)? Then the next scripture says “God forbid.” Grace gives the power to overcome sin.

Romans 6:2 - God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you are dead to sin, that means you no longer commit sin anymore.

Romans 6:11-12 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul is writing here that we are to be dead unto sin. If you are dead to sin, that means you will not commit it. Paul also wrote that we are not to allow sin to reign in our mortal body. Our mortal body is the one we have right now. If it was impossible to live free from sin, why would Paul write and instruct us to not let it reign in our bodies?

I John 3:10 - In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God. If you’re not of God, then you are of the Devil. If you commit sin, you are not of God because you are not doing righteousness.

The Bible says we are to be like Christ, and we can be free from sin. Read the scriptures below:

I Peter 1:15-16 - But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I John 2:6 - He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Christ walked without sinning, and we ought to walk like him. Therefore we are commanded by the Bible to live holy, righteous, and sinless every day.

Sirus
Jul 17th 2009, 03:39 AM
Now that's a post! I agree with 99% of it so just one question that's not easily seen in it.....

How do we 'sin not'?
I mean, it you got this much right surely you can explain how 'sin shall not have dominion over us'....

Zack702
Jul 17th 2009, 04:04 AM
Sin separates man from God. Yes if I were to commit sin, I would no longer be a child of God but rather a sinner (child of the devil).

Sin is a transgression against the law of Almighty God:

I John 3:4 – Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
James 4:17 – Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The Bible commands us in several passages that we are not to sin:

Ezekiel 3:21 – Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.

This scripture says the righteous sin not, therefore if you commit sin, you are not righteous, nor are you living righteously. Sinners live unrighteously, and thus those who commit sin are spiritually dead.

I Corinthians 15:34 – Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Those who are righteous do not sin. This scripture commands us to be righteous, and in order to be righteous we cannot commit sin. Not even one.

I Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

The unrighteous are those who commit sin (I John 5:17 declares unrighteousness is sin)

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

The Bible says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Holiness means living free from sin, and if you are not living free from sin, you will not see the Lord in Heaven.

Matthew 5:8 - Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Only the pure in heart will see God. A pure heart does not commit sin, because the Bible teaches that a wicked heart commits sin. You cannot have a pure heart and a wicked heart at the same time.

Definition of pure: free from corrupt desire, from sin and guilt

John 5:14 – Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Notice that he said sin no more. Christ doesn’t demand anything from us that we cannot do, the Bible says “…I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me…” This includes living free from sin, everyday. We also know the Bible says "his commandments are not grievous" and "if ye love me, keep my commandments"

John 8:11 – She said No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Again, Christ told the woman to “go and sin no more.” Would Christ tell her to do something that she could not do? Absolutely not!

II Corinthians 13:7 – Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

The Bible says that we are to do NO evil. The word “evil” means sin.

II Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows who his people are. If you are a true child of God, you will depart from iniquity just like the scripture says. The word depart means to separate from, to remove from, to desert, to refrain, or to withdraw. If you depart from sin, you are no longer attached to it, or involved with it. It is no longer apart of you, or your life. The word iniquity means sin or unrighteousness. Remember that we read earlier that the righteous sin not!

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This scripture is Christ talking about judgment day. Those who work iniquity (commit sin) will not go into Heaven. God will command them to depart from him.

Lu 13:27 - But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Christ doesn’t even know you if you commit sin. When I say he doesn’t know you, it means that you don’t have a real relationship with him. You cannot commit and know Christ at the same time, it’s impossible.

Isaiah 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

God doesn’t even hear your prayers if you commit sin, unless it is a prayer of repentance. If you pray to God with sin in your life, he doesn’t even hear you. Iniquity (sin) separates a person from God.

John 9:31 - Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

John said we know that God heareth not sinners. If you are living a life of sin, God doesn’t hear you. If you commit sin, you are not saved. Only those who are truly saved can pray to God. God hears the prayers of the righteous only. But the end of this scripture says if you do his will, God will hear you. It’s God’s will that you live free from sin, if you do; God will hear you when you pray.

James 5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The prayer of a righteous man avails much, not the prayer of a sinner. Please remember that if you are a sinner, God does hear the prayer of an individual who is truly repenting of their sins. If you are truly repenting of your sins and asking for forgiveness, you won’t sin anymore. Asking for forgiveness every night is not true repentance. In order to repent, the Bible says you must have godly sorrow. (II Corinthians 7:10) - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. If you are truly sorry for your sins, you wouldn’t commit them anymore. What if everyday I stabbed you with a knife, but then I asked you to please forgive me. Maybe after the 2nd or 3rd time, you would really start to wonder if I was really sorry for what I was doing. If I kept stabbing you every day, after a while you wouldn’t believe me anymore if I said I was sorry. I could say I’m sorry all I wanted to, but if I don’t stop stabbing you, then I’m not really sorry.

Psalms 66:18 - If I regard iniquity (sin) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

If there is sin in your life, God does not hear you.

Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Those who are just (free from sin) don’t have to repent. Why? It’s simple, because they have no sins to repent of, they are living holy and righteous like God wants them to.

Luke 1:74-75 – That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

We are to serve God in holiness and righteousness, all the days of our life. You will not become free from sin after you die, that is a lie. Remember, holiness and righteousness means without sin.

I Peter 3:12 - For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous. It also says his ears are open to their prayers, but it doesn’t say his ear is open to the prayers of a sinner. I want to remind you also that if a person is prayer a real prayer of repentance, God does hear that. But if you are trying to pray with sin in your life, God does not hear you. The very end of this scripture is scary. “The Lord is against them that do evil.” The word evil in this scripture is referring to sin. The Lord is against those who commit sin. That’s scary, I wouldn’t want God against me.

Titus 2:11-12 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

The Bible says that we are to live soberly, righteously (free from sin), and godly in this present world. This present world means today, right now. This present world is the world that you are living in right now, it’s not an eternal world or some afterlife. It means while we are here on Earth right now, we are commanded by the Bible to live righteously and godly.

I John 3:9 – Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

If you are “born again”, you will not commit sin.

I John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that committeth sin is of God? No that’s not what the Bible says. If you commit sin, you are of the Devil. Read the scripture for your self, it isn’t something I made up.

I John 5:18 – We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Whoever is born of God doesn’t sin. Being born of God means being saved. Being saved is a lot more than just “accepting Jesus.” Just believing in Jesus doesn’t accomplish much. The Bible says that the Devils believe in him and tremble.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The Devils believe in Jesus, but yet they are going to Hell. Just because an individual believes in Jesus doesn’t mean they are going to Heaven.

I will now show several scriptures that talk about sin:

Ex 20:20 - And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

Psalms 69:27-28 - Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

This scripture is taking about the book of life. Those who commit iniquity (sin) are blotted out of the book of life (assuming their name was written their previously because they were saved)

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Everyone who commits sin is a slave to it. That’s what the Bible says, and it is true. If people weren’t slaves to their sins, they would have the power to stop sinning completely. But people cannot stop sinning because they really don’t have God in their life.

Romans 6:1 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is Paul talking. He’s asking shall we continue in sin (keep committing sin)? Then the next scripture says “God forbid.” Grace gives the power to overcome sin.

Romans 6:2 - God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you are dead to sin, that means you no longer commit sin anymore.

Romans 6:11-12 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul is writing here that we are to be dead unto sin. If you are dead to sin, that means you will not commit it. Paul also wrote that we are not to allow sin to reign in our mortal body. Our mortal body is the one we have right now. If it was impossible to live free from sin, why would Paul write and instruct us to not let it reign in our bodies?

I John 3:10 - In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God. If you’re not of God, then you are of the Devil. If you commit sin, you are not of God because you are not doing righteousness.

The Bible says we are to be like Christ, and we can be free from sin. Read the scriptures below:

I Peter 1:15-16 - But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I John 2:6 - He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Christ walked without sinning, and we ought to walk like him. Therefore we are commanded by the Bible to live holy, righteous, and sinless every day.

Yea and we do we walk believing in God who sent the prophets and Jesus and fulfilled the bible.

If the bible says all who sin are children of the devil this is not to strike fear because of lack of understanding. This is a matter of principle after the manner of the priest nation of Israel.

The devil in the desert asking Jesus to basically do what he wants to instead of what God does shows plainly what it means devil. That doesn't mean that because we do what we want to we are all damned. It just means that we require a savior a link if you will from this state to the next. They that do not have that savior sin unto there death.

Paul wrote to the churches as if having to warn the preachers the manner of a godly person in fear that the people might not believe them that Jesus was that savior. But there are many in the world who are saved by that same Lord Jesus who walk not after the manner of a preacher at all.

faithfulfriend
Jul 17th 2009, 04:05 AM
Now that's a post! I agree with 99% of it so just one question that's not easily seen in it.....

How do we 'sin not'?
I mean, it you got this much right surely you can explain how 'sin shall not have dominion over us'....

By being sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost in a second definite work of grace, subsequent to salvation.

The common term is called "Entire Sanctification" and I have experienced this in my own life, so nobody can tell me that its something that happens to you in the "next life." Its a very real and present reality today in me and thousands of others that I know.

Being sanctified cleanses your carnal nature, thus you don't even have the desire to commit sin anymore. The sin nature is gone, cleansed by the blood of Christ. Thus having the heart cleansed, and having the Spirit of God dwelling within, God gives power to therefore resist every single temptation that comes our way, thus the passage rings so true in my life:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

None of this is possible by my own power, strength or works, but only by God.

BroRog
Jul 17th 2009, 05:05 AM
Now that's a post! I agree with 99% of it so just one question that's not easily seen in it.....

How do we 'sin not'?
I mean, it you got this much right surely you can explain how 'sin shall not have dominion over us'....

How do you know what you are agreeing with? Single verses taken out of context mean absolutely nothing at all.

Sirus
Jul 17th 2009, 05:05 AM
By being sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost in a second definite work of grace, subsequent to salvation.

The common term is called "Entire Sanctification" and I have experienced this in my own life, so nobody can tell me that its something that happens to you in the "next life." Its a very real and present reality today in me and thousands of others that I know.Where might I find this second work of grace in the Scriptures? There is only one work of grace and that is Christ and him crucified! Through that I have been given all things! Just because you didn't know or hear the truth of the gospel doesn't mean all things pertaining to life and godliness were not given you! You just had not come to The Knowledge of the hidden mystery in Christ.

This realization didn't make you any more Sanctified than the day you were born again, it simply brought Sanctification into your experience. I too experience it but I do not, and cannot, call it anything but the cross of Christ, the power of God to them that are saved. If you died before you saw the complete gospel you were still saved sanctified and redeemed, because you were in the faith and desired righteousness and truth, which is why you were shown the complete gospel.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
...........
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Being sanctified cleanses your carnal nature, thus you don't even have the desire to commit sin anymore. The sin nature is gone, cleansed by the blood of Christ. Thus having the heart cleansed, and having the Spirit of God dwelling within, God gives power to therefore resist every single temptation that comes our way, thus the passage rings so true in my life:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

None of this is possible by my own power, strength or works, but only by God.Amen!!! (except for 'sin nature' - I call it flesh like the Bible does) This is done by the one work of grace, the cross of Christ. There is no such animal as a second work of grace!

So to answer my own question.....
When I am tempted I believe in what I do not see. I believe the God that calls those things that are not as though they are. His promises....
I believe I am dead. Dead to sin and alive to God, That I am crucified with Christ. Baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ.....dead, buried, raised with Him. I don't want to sin and do not have to. A dead man cannot sin. I thank him for this/his grace, and have communion with the Spirit (2Co 13:14) and do not sin.

It has nothing to do with some second work of grace, but an awakening to the one and only work of grace!
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

BroRog
Jul 17th 2009, 05:06 AM
By being sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost in a second definite work of grace, subsequent to salvation.

The common term is called "Entire Sanctification" and I have experienced this in my own life, so nobody can tell me that its something that happens to you in the "next life." Its a very real and present reality today in me and thousands of others that I know.

Being sanctified cleanses your carnal nature, thus you don't even have the desire to commit sin anymore. The sin nature is gone, cleansed by the blood of Christ. Thus having the heart cleansed, and having the Spirit of God dwelling within, God gives power to therefore resist every single temptation that comes our way, thus the passage rings so true in my life:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

None of this is possible by my own power, strength or works, but only by God.

You're just kidding yourself. No offense. I just know.

Sirus
Jul 17th 2009, 05:15 AM
How do you know what you are agreeing with? Single verses taken out of context mean absolutely nothing at all.I guess you'd have to understand the work of grace being discussed to know what we are agreeing on......:idea:

Sirus
Jul 17th 2009, 05:18 AM
You're just kidding yourself. No offense. I just know.So instead of inquiring how? You accuse? Then claim you know? That's not right!

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 06:42 AM
So Three verses of Romans 13 and you are sinless...

So verse 8 talks about not owning money to any one.... Going out on a limb here by by this I take it you don't have a mortgage then, for if you did, you'be be sinning against 13:8?

Should we not believe the word of God according to what is written?

We do not have to yield to temptation!!!!!!!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 06:47 AM
Sin separates man from God. Yes if I were to commit sin, I would no longer be a child of God but rather a sinner (child of the devil).

Sin is a transgression against the law of Almighty God:

I John 3:4 – Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
James 4:17 – Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The Bible commands us in several passages that we are not to sin:

Ezekiel 3:21 – Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.

This scripture says the righteous sin not, therefore if you commit sin, you are not righteous, nor are you living righteously. Sinners live unrighteously, and thus those who commit sin are spiritually dead.

I Corinthians 15:34 – Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Those who are righteous do not sin. This scripture commands us to be righteous, and in order to be righteous we cannot commit sin. Not even one.

I Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

The unrighteous are those who commit sin (I John 5:17 declares unrighteousness is sin)

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

The Bible says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Holiness means living free from sin, and if you are not living free from sin, you will not see the Lord in Heaven.

Matthew 5:8 - Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Only the pure in heart will see God. A pure heart does not commit sin, because the Bible teaches that a wicked heart commits sin. You cannot have a pure heart and a wicked heart at the same time.

Definition of pure: free from corrupt desire, from sin and guilt

John 5:14 – Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Notice that he said sin no more. Christ doesn’t demand anything from us that we cannot do, the Bible says “…I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me…” This includes living free from sin, everyday. We also know the Bible says "his commandments are not grievous" and "if ye love me, keep my commandments"

John 8:11 – She said No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Again, Christ told the woman to “go and sin no more.” Would Christ tell her to do something that she could not do? Absolutely not!

II Corinthians 13:7 – Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

The Bible says that we are to do NO evil. The word “evil” means sin.

II Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows who his people are. If you are a true child of God, you will depart from iniquity just like the scripture says. The word depart means to separate from, to remove from, to desert, to refrain, or to withdraw. If you depart from sin, you are no longer attached to it, or involved with it. It is no longer apart of you, or your life. The word iniquity means sin or unrighteousness. Remember that we read earlier that the righteous sin not!

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This scripture is Christ talking about judgment day. Those who work iniquity (commit sin) will not go into Heaven. God will command them to depart from him.

Lu 13:27 - But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Christ doesn’t even know you if you commit sin. When I say he doesn’t know you, it means that you don’t have a real relationship with him. You cannot commit and know Christ at the same time, it’s impossible.

Isaiah 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

God doesn’t even hear your prayers if you commit sin, unless it is a prayer of repentance. If you pray to God with sin in your life, he doesn’t even hear you. Iniquity (sin) separates a person from God.

John 9:31 - Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

John said we know that God heareth not sinners. If you are living a life of sin, God doesn’t hear you. If you commit sin, you are not saved. Only those who are truly saved can pray to God. God hears the prayers of the righteous only. But the end of this scripture says if you do his will, God will hear you. It’s God’s will that you live free from sin, if you do; God will hear you when you pray.

James 5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The prayer of a righteous man avails much, not the prayer of a sinner. Please remember that if you are a sinner, God does hear the prayer of an individual who is truly repenting of their sins. If you are truly repenting of your sins and asking for forgiveness, you won’t sin anymore. Asking for forgiveness every night is not true repentance. In order to repent, the Bible says you must have godly sorrow. (II Corinthians 7:10) - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. If you are truly sorry for your sins, you wouldn’t commit them anymore. What if everyday I stabbed you with a knife, but then I asked you to please forgive me. Maybe after the 2nd or 3rd time, you would really start to wonder if I was really sorry for what I was doing. If I kept stabbing you every day, after a while you wouldn’t believe me anymore if I said I was sorry. I could say I’m sorry all I wanted to, but if I don’t stop stabbing you, then I’m not really sorry.

Psalms 66:18 - If I regard iniquity (sin) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

If there is sin in your life, God does not hear you.

Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Those who are just (free from sin) don’t have to repent. Why? It’s simple, because they have no sins to repent of, they are living holy and righteous like God wants them to.

Luke 1:74-75 – That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

We are to serve God in holiness and righteousness, all the days of our life. You will not become free from sin after you die, that is a lie. Remember, holiness and righteousness means without sin.

I Peter 3:12 - For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous. It also says his ears are open to their prayers, but it doesn’t say his ear is open to the prayers of a sinner. I want to remind you also that if a person is prayer a real prayer of repentance, God does hear that. But if you are trying to pray with sin in your life, God does not hear you. The very end of this scripture is scary. “The Lord is against them that do evil.” The word evil in this scripture is referring to sin. The Lord is against those who commit sin. That’s scary, I wouldn’t want God against me.

Titus 2:11-12 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

The Bible says that we are to live soberly, righteously (free from sin), and godly in this present world. This present world means today, right now. This present world is the world that you are living in right now, it’s not an eternal world or some afterlife. It means while we are here on Earth right now, we are commanded by the Bible to live righteously and godly.

I John 3:9 – Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

If you are “born again”, you will not commit sin.

I John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that committeth sin is of God? No that’s not what the Bible says. If you commit sin, you are of the Devil. Read the scripture for your self, it isn’t something I made up.

I John 5:18 – We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Whoever is born of God doesn’t sin. Being born of God means being saved. Being saved is a lot more than just “accepting Jesus.” Just believing in Jesus doesn’t accomplish much. The Bible says that the Devils believe in him and tremble.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The Devils believe in Jesus, but yet they are going to Hell. Just because an individual believes in Jesus doesn’t mean they are going to Heaven.

I will now show several scriptures that talk about sin:

Ex 20:20 - And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

Psalms 69:27-28 - Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

This scripture is taking about the book of life. Those who commit iniquity (sin) are blotted out of the book of life (assuming their name was written their previously because they were saved)

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Everyone who commits sin is a slave to it. That’s what the Bible says, and it is true. If people weren’t slaves to their sins, they would have the power to stop sinning completely. But people cannot stop sinning because they really don’t have God in their life.

Romans 6:1 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is Paul talking. He’s asking shall we continue in sin (keep committing sin)? Then the next scripture says “God forbid.” Grace gives the power to overcome sin.

Romans 6:2 - God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you are dead to sin, that means you no longer commit sin anymore.

Romans 6:11-12 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul is writing here that we are to be dead unto sin. If you are dead to sin, that means you will not commit it. Paul also wrote that we are not to allow sin to reign in our mortal body. Our mortal body is the one we have right now. If it was impossible to live free from sin, why would Paul write and instruct us to not let it reign in our bodies?

I John 3:10 - In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God. If you’re not of God, then you are of the Devil. If you commit sin, you are not of God because you are not doing righteousness.

The Bible says we are to be like Christ, and we can be free from sin. Read the scriptures below:

I Peter 1:15-16 - But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I John 2:6 - He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Christ walked without sinning, and we ought to walk like him. Therefore we are commanded by the Bible to live holy, righteous, and sinless every day.

Amen and amen Faithfull Friend!!!!!!!!!!

God bless you!!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 06:52 AM
You're just kidding yourself. No offense. I just know.

Then you are resigned to continually sin against God, and if you sin against God you are continually hurting him, now is that love?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 17th 2009, 11:25 AM
Sin separates man from God. Yes if I were to commit sin, I would no longer be a child of God but rather a sinner (child of the devil).

Sin is a transgression against the law of Almighty God:

I John 3:4 – Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
James 4:17 – Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The Bible commands us in several passages that we are not to sin:

Ezekiel 3:21 – Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.

This scripture says the righteous sin not, therefore if you commit sin, you are not righteous, nor are you living righteously. Sinners live unrighteously, and thus those who commit sin are spiritually dead.

I Corinthians 15:34 – Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Those who are righteous do not sin. This scripture commands us to be righteous, and in order to be righteous we cannot commit sin. Not even one.

I Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

The unrighteous are those who commit sin (I John 5:17 declares unrighteousness is sin)

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

The Bible says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Holiness means living free from sin, and if you are not living free from sin, you will not see the Lord in Heaven.

Matthew 5:8 - Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Only the pure in heart will see God. A pure heart does not commit sin, because the Bible teaches that a wicked heart commits sin. You cannot have a pure heart and a wicked heart at the same time.

Definition of pure: free from corrupt desire, from sin and guilt

John 5:14 – Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Notice that he said sin no more. Christ doesn’t demand anything from us that we cannot do, the Bible says “…I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me…” This includes living free from sin, everyday. We also know the Bible says "his commandments are not grievous" and "if ye love me, keep my commandments"

John 8:11 – She said No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Again, Christ told the woman to “go and sin no more.” Would Christ tell her to do something that she could not do? Absolutely not!

II Corinthians 13:7 – Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

The Bible says that we are to do NO evil. The word “evil” means sin.

II Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows who his people are. If you are a true child of God, you will depart from iniquity just like the scripture says. The word depart means to separate from, to remove from, to desert, to refrain, or to withdraw. If you depart from sin, you are no longer attached to it, or involved with it. It is no longer apart of you, or your life. The word iniquity means sin or unrighteousness. Remember that we read earlier that the righteous sin not!

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This scripture is Christ talking about judgment day. Those who work iniquity (commit sin) will not go into Heaven. God will command them to depart from him.

Lu 13:27 - But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Christ doesn’t even know you if you commit sin. When I say he doesn’t know you, it means that you don’t have a real relationship with him. You cannot commit and know Christ at the same time, it’s impossible.

Isaiah 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

God doesn’t even hear your prayers if you commit sin, unless it is a prayer of repentance. If you pray to God with sin in your life, he doesn’t even hear you. Iniquity (sin) separates a person from God.

John 9:31 - Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

John said we know that God heareth not sinners. If you are living a life of sin, God doesn’t hear you. If you commit sin, you are not saved. Only those who are truly saved can pray to God. God hears the prayers of the righteous only. But the end of this scripture says if you do his will, God will hear you. It’s God’s will that you live free from sin, if you do; God will hear you when you pray.

James 5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The prayer of a righteous man avails much, not the prayer of a sinner. Please remember that if you are a sinner, God does hear the prayer of an individual who is truly repenting of their sins. If you are truly repenting of your sins and asking for forgiveness, you won’t sin anymore. Asking for forgiveness every night is not true repentance. In order to repent, the Bible says you must have godly sorrow. (II Corinthians 7:10) - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. If you are truly sorry for your sins, you wouldn’t commit them anymore. What if everyday I stabbed you with a knife, but then I asked you to please forgive me. Maybe after the 2nd or 3rd time, you would really start to wonder if I was really sorry for what I was doing. If I kept stabbing you every day, after a while you wouldn’t believe me anymore if I said I was sorry. I could say I’m sorry all I wanted to, but if I don’t stop stabbing you, then I’m not really sorry.

Psalms 66:18 - If I regard iniquity (sin) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

If there is sin in your life, God does not hear you.

Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Those who are just (free from sin) don’t have to repent. Why? It’s simple, because they have no sins to repent of, they are living holy and righteous like God wants them to.

Luke 1:74-75 – That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

We are to serve God in holiness and righteousness, all the days of our life. You will not become free from sin after you die, that is a lie. Remember, holiness and righteousness means without sin.

I Peter 3:12 - For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous. It also says his ears are open to their prayers, but it doesn’t say his ear is open to the prayers of a sinner. I want to remind you also that if a person is prayer a real prayer of repentance, God does hear that. But if you are trying to pray with sin in your life, God does not hear you. The very end of this scripture is scary. “The Lord is against them that do evil.” The word evil in this scripture is referring to sin. The Lord is against those who commit sin. That’s scary, I wouldn’t want God against me.

Titus 2:11-12 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

The Bible says that we are to live soberly, righteously (free from sin), and godly in this present world. This present world means today, right now. This present world is the world that you are living in right now, it’s not an eternal world or some afterlife. It means while we are here on Earth right now, we are commanded by the Bible to live righteously and godly.

I John 3:9 – Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

If you are “born again”, you will not commit sin.

I John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that committeth sin is of God? No that’s not what the Bible says. If you commit sin, you are of the Devil. Read the scripture for your self, it isn’t something I made up.

I John 5:18 – We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Whoever is born of God doesn’t sin. Being born of God means being saved. Being saved is a lot more than just “accepting Jesus.” Just believing in Jesus doesn’t accomplish much. The Bible says that the Devils believe in him and tremble.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The Devils believe in Jesus, but yet they are going to Hell. Just because an individual believes in Jesus doesn’t mean they are going to Heaven.

I will now show several scriptures that talk about sin:

Ex 20:20 - And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

Psalms 69:27-28 - Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

This scripture is taking about the book of life. Those who commit iniquity (sin) are blotted out of the book of life (assuming their name was written their previously because they were saved)

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Everyone who commits sin is a slave to it. That’s what the Bible says, and it is true. If people weren’t slaves to their sins, they would have the power to stop sinning completely. But people cannot stop sinning because they really don’t have God in their life.

Romans 6:1 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is Paul talking. He’s asking shall we continue in sin (keep committing sin)? Then the next scripture says “God forbid.” Grace gives the power to overcome sin.

Romans 6:2 - God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you are dead to sin, that means you no longer commit sin anymore.

Romans 6:11-12 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul is writing here that we are to be dead unto sin. If you are dead to sin, that means you will not commit it. Paul also wrote that we are not to allow sin to reign in our mortal body. Our mortal body is the one we have right now. If it was impossible to live free from sin, why would Paul write and instruct us to not let it reign in our bodies?

I John 3:10 - In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God. If you’re not of God, then you are of the Devil. If you commit sin, you are not of God because you are not doing righteousness.

The Bible says we are to be like Christ, and we can be free from sin. Read the scriptures below:

I Peter 1:15-16 - But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I John 2:6 - He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Christ walked without sinning, and we ought to walk like him. Therefore we are commanded by the Bible to live holy, righteous, and sinless every day.

Hi fff,

So who judges your sinless condition, you or God? Did God give us the right to say I am now sinless, for 'I see nothing wrong within me?'

As you started with 1 John, the answer continues...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

You can say I don't do this sin and I don't do that sin, and for the most part could be right for that one sin or that another sin for the moment, but what about the sins you don't search for? What about the sins that others see but are blind to you? Who stands in judgment? Look back to Job, for who judged Job, himself or God?


Salvation is not through your work of obedience, obedience is because of your salvation, that why Peter stated in 2 Peter 1:8

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing [moral excellence,, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love], they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not that you become sinless, but sinning less becomes your desire, knowing that man has more sin within than man cares to admit. So my comments back to you is that you are only sinless on this earth one of two ways, either through the finished work of Jesus Christ, and that any obedience you do is because of Christ now in you, by the Holy Spirit, for God is the only one who brings obedience, and is able to keep you, or you say in your heart, I am free from all sin. [Are both true ways?]

So if we say that we no longer sin, and are now sinless, we still need to reconcile what John has written... "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." The sum of His word is truth, so how can one be sinless and yet scripture states we still sin, meaning we are sinners?

And again, the question I've asked Firstfruits and now as you what does it mean to be "in Christ?"

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 17th 2009, 11:32 AM
Should we not believe the word of God according to what is written?

We do not have to yield to temptation!!!!!!!!

Firstfruits

So you missed addressing the question Ff, in taking a mortgage for which is what 13:8 is saying, you'd be sinning, for that was your defense

Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 11:36 AM
So you missed addressing the question Ff, in taking a mortgage for which is what 13:8 is saying, you'd be sinning, for that was your defense

Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

I owe nothing on my mortgage according to my agreement with my mortgage brokers.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 11:45 AM
Hi fff,

So who judges your sinless condition, you or God? Did God give us the right to say I am now sinless, for 'I see nothing wrong within me?'

As you started with 1 John, the answer continues...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

You can say I don't do this sin and I don't do that sin, and for the most part could be right for that one sin or that another sin for the moment, but what about the sins you don't search for? What about the sins that others see but are blind to you? Who stands in judgment? Look back to Job, for who judged Job, himself or God?


Salvation is not through your work of obedience, obedience is because of your salvation, that why Peter stated in 2 Peter 1:8

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing [moral excellence,, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love], they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not that you become sinless, but sinning less becomes your desire, knowing that man has more sin within than man cares to admit. So my comments back to you is that you are only sinless on this earth one of two ways, either through the finished work of Jesus Christ, and that any obedience you do is because of Christ now in you, by the Holy Spirit, for God is the only one who brings obedience, and is able to keep you, or you say in your heart, I am free from all sin. [Are both true ways?]

So if we say that we no longer sin, and are now sinless, we still need to reconcile what John has written... "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." The sum of His word is truth, so how can one be sinless and yet scripture states we still sin, meaning we are sinners?

And again, the question I've asked Firstfruits and now as you what does it mean to be "in Christ?"

With regards to the following scripture do you not believe that we can be dead to sin?

Rom 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) What shall we say then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Jn 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Only by not walking in the Spirit will we fulfil the lusts of the flesh, do you believe this?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 17th 2009, 11:45 AM
I owe nothing on my mortgage according to my agreement with my mortgage brokers.

Firstfruits

But this is my point, the scripture you site for being sinless states to owe nothing... yet we would agree being sinless is not about borrowing money, but you gave it as it were.

You or I are not sinless... but we should be on the path to sin less, for no man can claim they have no sin, but as the tax collector go before God and say be merciful on me, for I am a sinner.

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 11:53 AM
But this is my point, the scripture you site for being sinless states to owe nothing... yet we would agree being sinless is not about borrowing money, but you gave it as it were.

You or I are not sinless... but we should be on the path to sin less, for no man can claim they have no sin, but as the tax collector go before God and say be merciful on me, for I am a sinner.

Would you rather that I took words from the scripture and not use them as given?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

You asked about mortgages, well let me say that if I did owe my mortgage broker money then I would be breaking my agreement and the law and that would be a sin.

So where may I ask is the confusion?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 17th 2009, 11:58 AM
With regards to the following scripture do you not believe that we can be dead to sin?

Rom 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) What shall we say then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Jn 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Only by not walking in the Spirit will we fulfil the lusts of the flesh, do you believe this?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I see you mixing things up again... for

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


So we do change now based on the Holy Spirit within us, yet we still have contention within our sinful frame... The path of sin now turns from desire to hate, from frequency to infrequent, but the body still dies, the heart still battles, the mind still wonders... we still sin --- but by His grace, we are saved, and not by any work I do or not do. And by His living within me, I have victory and all the good I do is because of Him, and all the bad I still do is because I still am a man with a sin hangover... I have the capability to never sin again, yet will never truly achieve that until the Lord changes my body along with my heart. And when he returns, my spiritual salvation will be joined with my physical salvation. Praise God!!!!!

notuptome
Jul 17th 2009, 12:10 PM
Then you are resigned to continually sin against God, and if you sin against God you are continually hurting him, now is that love?
From where comes our righteousness? From Christ through grace by faith or the law? Are we righteous or is Christ in us righteous?

If we have begun in grace shall we now be perfected in the law? The law can only produce self righteousness which is of course sin in itself. We are to trust in the righteousness of Christ.

When we receive the blood of Christ we are cleansed from all unrighteousness because of His righteousness. When the Righteous Judge looks upon me He sees not me but the blood of Christ. I am hidden under the blood of the Righteous One. Jesus presents me faultless before the throne. I cannot stand in my righteousness for it is as filthy rags in Gods sight.

I do not will to sin yet when I think I stand I fall. I love my Lord because He is faithful and just to forgive me my sin. He knows my weakness and draws me close that I may love Him even more. It would be hurtful to declare myself righteous and able to keep from sin apart from Him. I am not worthy only my Christ is worthy.

Legalism is one extreme and lasciviousness is the other. The straight path lies betwixt the two.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 12:20 PM
From where comes our righteousness? From Christ through grace by faith or the law? Are we righteous or is Christ in us righteous?

If we have begun in grace shall we now be perfected in the law? The law can only produce self righteousness which is of course sin in itself. We are to trust in the righteousness of Christ.

When we receive the blood of Christ we are cleansed from all unrighteousness because of His righteousness. When the Righteous Judge looks upon me He sees not me but the blood of Christ. I am hidden under the blood of the Righteous One. Jesus presents me faultless before the throne. I cannot stand in my righteousness for it is as filthy rags in Gods sight.

I do not will to sin yet when I think I stand I fall. I love my Lord because He is faithful and just to forgive me my sin. He knows my weakness and draws me close that I may love Him even more. It would be hurtful to declare myself righteous and able to keep from sin apart from Him. I am not worthy only my Christ is worthy.

Legalism is one extreme and lasciviousness is the other. The straight path lies betwixt the two.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We sin when we yield to temptation, which comes from Satan. Meaning that we are not obeying God when we do so but Satan.

Rom 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There is no in between path, we either follow truth or that which is not truth. That which is righteous or that which is not righteous.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 12:23 PM
I see you mixing things up again... for

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


So we do change now based on the Holy Spirit within us, yet we still have contention within our sinful frame... The path of sin now turns from desire to hate, from frequency to infrequent, but the body still dies, the heart still battles, the mind still wonders... we still sin --- but by His grace, we are saved, and not by any work I do or not do. And by His living within me, I have victory and all the good I do is because of Him, and all the bad I still do is because I still am a man with a sin hangover... I have the capability to never sin again, yet will never truly achieve that until the Lord changes my body along with my heart. And when he returns, my spiritual salvation will be joined with my physical salvation. Praise God!!!!!

No mix up at all.

Do you not accept that if we walk or follow the Spirit that we shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh/sin?

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 17th 2009, 12:38 PM
Would you rather that I took words from the scripture and not use them as given?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

You asked about mortgages, well let me say that if I did owe my mortgage broker money then I would be breaking my agreement and the law and that would be a sin.

So where may I ask is the confusion?

Firstfruits

Hi Ff,
My point to you is this…
You say that if I...


1. owe nothing to anyone [Keep your mortgage]
2. Love one another
3. Not commit adultery
4. Not murder
5. Not steal
6. Not covet

Then I am sinless because of what I keep???? But I say keeping 6 rules doesn’t make a man sinless, but through faith in sinless Jesus’ finished work does. Not arguing the point that one should not try to do all 6, my point of contention is that in doing the 6 doesn’t make one sinless, for the heart is deceitful, who can understand it? Then are 6 points the only number, what about 10 that God gave Moses? What then about the 613 laws that Moses gave Israel?

You may say I keep this or that, but is it by what you do that keeps you saved? When the rich ruler came to Jesus and said he kept every law from his youth, did Jesus say ‘…ahhh you are now sinless?’ Naw… If you are in Christ, you are saved by the grace of God, and what you do has no bearing in being saved. Any good works you do is an outcome from your being saved, not a cause for you to be saved, but our obedience glorifies God with our heart of love towards Him that He gave us to see Him for who He is.

But again, our obedience is an outcome of His saving grace towards us, and as hard as we try, still contend with sin until our new Spirit joins our new Bodies, both through, in and because of the finished work of Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 17th 2009, 12:41 PM
No mix up at all.

Do you not accept that if we walk or follow the Spirit that we shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh/sin?

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Firstfruits

Agree, but disagree that stumbling will bring cause to be cast out. For if Christ lives in me, what'll cause Him to leave me?

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 12:59 PM
Hi Ff,
My point to you is this…
You say that if I...

1. owe nothing to anyone [Keep your mortgage]
2. Love one another
3. Not commit adultery
4. Not murder
5. Not steal
6. Not covet
Then I am sinless because of what I keep???? But I say keeping 6 rules doesn’t make a man sinless, but through faith in sinless Jesus’ finished work does. Not arguing the point that one should not try to do all 6, my point of contention is that in doing the 6 doesn’t make one sinless, for the heart is deceitful, who can understand it? Then are 6 points the only number, what about 10 that God gave Moses? What then about the 613 laws that Moses gave Israel?

You may say I keep this or that, but is it by what you do that keeps you saved? When the rich ruler came to Jesus and said he kept every law from his youth, did Jesus say ‘…ahhh you are now sinless?’ Naw… If you are in Christ, you are saved by the grace of God, and what you do has no bearing in being saved. Any good works you do is an outcome from your being saved, not a cause for you to be saved, but our obedience glorifies God with our heart of love towards Him that He gave us to see Him for who He is.

But again, our obedience is an outcome of His saving grace towards us, and as hard as we try, still contend with sin until our new Spirit joins our new Bodies, both through, in and because of the finished work of Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

According to what is written that is what I believe.

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

Again it comes down to whom we yield, whether to God or to Satan.

What say you?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 17th 2009, 01:07 PM
We sin when we yield to temptation, which comes from Satan. Meaning that we are not obeying God when we do so but Satan.
Rom 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You missapply this scripture. Paul in Rom 6 is preaching the opposite of what you suggest. Rom 4:13-25 Paul contends that justification is apart from the law. Rom 5:1-12 Paul shows the results of justification Rom 5:12-21 Paul contrasts justification with condemnation. Rom 6:1-10 is deliverance from the power of sin. Rom 6:11-13 dead to the old alive to the new Rom 6:14-23 deliverance from the principal of works through death. It is difficult to be consice due to the volume of teaching presented here. 6:14 Sin has not dominion over us because we are not under the law but under grace. vs 15 God forbid that we should use this as an occasion to sin. vs 17God be thanked you were servants of sin but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to you vs 18 being made free from sin ye became to servants of righteousness. vs 19 is important Paul says I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of of your flesh.

Paul continually stressed that righteousness was not by the law which is by works but by grace which is through faith in Christ. We are to see ourselves as dead to sin in vs 11. How can a dead man sin? Tell me how that which is alive in Christ can be once again come under the unrighteousness of sin? It cannot. Our position in Christ makes it impossible from the perspective of justification.

There is no in between path, we either follow truth or that which is not truth. That which is righteous or that which is not righteous
Legalism is not truth any more than lasciviousness. Both are unrighteous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 01:40 PM
You missapply this scripture. Paul in Rom 6 is preaching the opposite of what you suggest. Rom 4:13-25 Paul contends that justification is apart from the law. Rom 5:1-12 Paul shows the results of justification Rom 5:12-21 Paul contrasts justification with condemnation. Rom 6:1-10 is deliverance from the power of sin. Rom 6:11-13 dead to the old alive to the new Rom 6:14-23 deliverance from the principal of works through death. It is difficult to be consice due to the volume of teaching presented here. 6:14 Sin has not dominion over us because we are not under the law but under grace. vs 15 God forbid that we should use this as an occasion to sin. vs 17God be thanked you were servants of sin but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to you vs 18 being made free from sin ye became to servants of righteousness. vs 19 is important Paul says I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of of your flesh.

Paul continually stressed that righteousness was not by the law which is by works but by grace which is through faith in Christ. We are to see ourselves as dead to sin in vs 11. How can a dead man sin? Tell me how that which is alive in Christ can be once again come under the unrighteousness of sin? It cannot. Our position in Christ makes it impossible from the perspective of justification.

Legalism is not truth any more than lasciviousness. Both are unrighteous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Is Paul not talking about sinin the following scriptures/

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

So how has what has been said been misapplied?

Legalism is not truth any more than lasciviousness. Both are unrighteous.

Jn 14:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jn 17:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

How is the word of God legalism?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jul 17th 2009, 02:42 PM
So instead of inquiring how? You accuse? Then claim you know? That's not right!

What is right is to admit the truth. And I am not accusing anyone of anything that I don't take upon myself. We are all sinners. I don't have to know anyone personally to know that we are all sinners.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8

BroRog
Jul 17th 2009, 02:50 PM
Then you are resigned to continually sin against God, and if you sin against God you are continually hurting him, now is that love?

Firstfruits

My hope is not seen.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. Romans 8:23-25


Paul says we have the first fruits of the spirit, but we are waiting eagerly for the redemption of our body. As he says in chapter 7 of Romans, we have a body of death right now, a principle of our existence in which our members are at war with our minds such that we do what we don't want to do and don't do the thing we love.



According to Paul, sinless perfection is a future hope not a current reality.

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2009, 02:59 PM
My hope is not seen.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. Romans 8:23-25


Paul says we have the first fruits of the spirit, but we are waiting eagerly for the redemption of our body. As he says in chapter 7 of Romans, we have a body of death right now, a principle of our existence in which our members are at war with our minds such that we do what we don't want to do and don't do the thing we love.



According to Paul, sinless perfection is a future hope not a current reality.

So are you saying that until we die no man can truly obey God, if that is the case then because we are all as it were sinners then we must all be judged according to our deeds of unrighteousness as no man is without sin.

As we are therefore all unrighteous what reward should we expect when Jesus returns, knowing that the wages all unrighteousness/sin is death?

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 17th 2009, 07:44 PM
Is Paul not talking about sinin the following scriptures/
You must place these scriptures into context.
Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?
vs 7 He that is dead is freed from sin
vs 11 dead to sin but alive unto God through Christ.
Rom 5:1 justified by faith ... through Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13)
Dead to sin in Christ alive unto righteousness in Christ


Rom 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16)
If we have Christ we are dead to sin and alive unto righteousness.



(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19)
Rom 6:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19)
Hard headed Jews trying to make their righteousness by the works of the law. Righteousness is by the grace of God through Jesus Christ


So how has what has been said been misapplied?

Implication that the Christian is placed back under the penality of sin when they cannot die twice any more than Christ can be recrucified for sin.


Legalism is not truth any more than lasciviousness. Both are unrighteous.


Legalism binds heavy burdens on the believer that Christ died to lift from him. Laciviousness makes the grace of God an occasion to sin wantonly shameing our Lord who was crucified for sin.



(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6)
Jn 14:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6)Jn 17:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

How is the word of God legalism?
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6)
If the Truth has made you free then you are free indeed.
Jude 24 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

Is not my Jesus able to keep me from falling? Is it not His exceeding joy?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Jul 17th 2009, 07:51 PM
So are you saying that until we die no man can truly obey God, if that is the case then because we are all as it were sinners then we must all be judged according to our deeds of unrighteousness as no man is without sin.

Yes, I'm saying that righteous sinners occasionally do unrighteous things. But as for being judged according to our deeds, Paul says that we are judged as to whether our deeds were motivated by a pursuit of glory, honor, and immortality, or if our deeds were motivated by selfish ambition.


As we are therefore all unrighteous what reward should we expect when Jesus returns, knowing that the wages all unrighteousness/sin is death?



Yes, as Paul says, the wages of sin is death, BUT the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord. So while we are motivated by our pursuit of glory, honor, and immortality, we also acknowledge that our deeds are not meritorious but that God is granting us eternal life as a gift.

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2009, 01:17 AM
Where might I find this second work of grace in the Scriptures? There is only one work of grace and that is Christ and him crucified!
[/INDENT]

There are two works of Grace. Here's the proof. (Below is NOT mine, but from the book “What the Bible Teaches by F.G. Smith." He explains it quite well and proves beyond a reasonable doubt with scripture.

My own testimony refutes your belief of only one work of grace. Thus how can I testify to a second work of grace if one does not exist? If you actually take the time to read the following post, you'll see that there are in fact two works of grace, and it is definitely taught in the Word of God

Conversion and a subsequent life free from sin, taught in the preceding chapters, is indeed a high state of grace; nevertheless it is not the complete sum of Christian experience as set forth in the New Testament. As our object is to set forth what the Bible teaches, we will in this chapter show that the New Testament clearly teaches a second definite work of divine grace wrought in the by the Holy Spirit, a work termed “sanctification.” The Bible writers speak of it from various standpoints, sometimes one phase of the subject and sometimes another being emphasized, and therefore different terms are used to express it; all, however, are resolved into the same thing. When the subject is considered from the standpoint of sanctification, a result is thereby expressed, and the cause of this result may or may not be stated in a given instance. In this chapter we will consider it first as a result, or work in the soul, and then proceed to show the cause that produces this effect. The first point that we will settle is the fact that sanctification is

A BIBLE DOCTRINE.
The apostle Paul states that God hath “chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth” (2 Thess. 2: 13). Sanctification is therefore a part of the work of salvation and belongs to all of God’s people. Christ prayed earnestly that his disciples might have this experience, as we read in John 17: 17— “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” He did even more than to pray for it: he gave his life that it might be accomplished. “Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate” (Heb. 13:12). But it is his own people that are to be sanctified, for Paul informs us that “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it: that he might sanctify and cleanse it” (Eph. 5:25, 26). This was also taught by the apostles. Peter states that our election is “through sanctification of the Spirit” (1 Pet. 1: 2). And Paul, writing to the Thessalonian brethren, says: “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification” (1 Thess. 4:3); and “the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it” (1 Thess. 5: 23, 24). We must be “a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the Master’s use” (2 Tim. 2:21). These texts, and others that might be cited, show clearly that sanctification is a New Testament doctrine.

WHAT DOES SANCTIFICATION SIGNIFY?

The term “sanctification” is defined by Webster as follows:
“1. The act of consecrating, or of setting apart for a sacred purpose; consecration.

“2. The act of sanctifying or making holy; or the state of being sanctified or made holy; the act of God’s grace by which the affections of men are purified, or alienated from sin and the world, and exalted to a supreme love to God; also the state of being thus purified or sanctified.”
The word “sanctify” he defines thus:

“1. To make sacred or holy; to set apart to a holy or religious use; to consecrate by appropriate rites; to hallow.

“2. To make holy or free from sin; to cleanse from moral corruption and pollution; to make fit for the service of God, and the society and employments of heaven.” By the foregoing definitions it will be seen that sanctification signifies two distinct things: first a consecrating, or setting apart to a holy or religious use a mere legal or ceremonial holiness; second, a definite cleansing and purifying of the heart and affections of men a moral work.

Now, the term is used in the Bible with both of these significations; therefore we must be careful to “rightly divide the word of truth.” In the Old Testament, under the law dispensation, sanctification is often mentioned; but it was merely a legal sanctification, a setting part to a religious use. This was before the time when full salvation could be wrought in the soul through the blood of Christ; therefore a moral change was not under consideration at all; in fact, the objects of that sanctification were in many cases wholly incapable of receiving any moral change, for inanimate objects, as well as animate, received it. Thus, the tabernacle was sanctified (Ex. 40: 9), the altar (verse 10), the vessels of the tabernacle (verse 9), the layer (verse 11), the mountain of Sinai (Ex. 19: 23). All of these objects, and others of like nature, were incapable of moral change, but they could be consecrated for a religious use. So also all Israel was sanctified (Ex. 19: 10, 14). This sanctification of the people, however, refers to consecration only, not to any moral change in their natures, for the act was performed by man (see Ex. 19: 10, 14; Lev. 27: 14 22). But in the New Testament the term “sanctification” is given the signification a purging or cleansing of the moral
nature of man. This is shown by the following considerations: 1. None but human beings can receive it, for it is given only to those who obey God (Luke 11:13; Acts 5:32; Rom. 15:16). 2. It is performed by the Holy Ghost, not by man (Rom. 15:16; Acts 15:8, 9;Heb. 10: 14, 15). 3. It is connected with the blood of Christ (Heb. 13:12; 10:10, 14, 15; 1 Thess. 5: 23). It is in this New Testament sense that I shall use the term throughout the remainder of this chapter.

FOR JUSTIFIED PEOPLE ONLY.
While none but human beings can receive this glorious experience of sanctification, not all of them obtain it; for it is reserved for those who have already been justified from their actual transgressions through the blood of Jesus Christ. In other words, people must be genuinely converted to God, born again, and living the sinless life described in the preceding chapter, before they are Scriptural candidates for sanctification. In Christ’s prayer concerning his disciples, he said, “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me . . . sanctify them” (John 17:9, 17). “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might
sanctify and cleanse it” (Eph. 5: 25, 26). It is the “brethren” that receive “an inheritance among all them which are sanctified” (Acts 20: 32). Yea, people must first “receive forgiveness of sins” before they can obtain the “inheritance” among them which are “sanctified” (Acts 26: 18). It was to the brethren at Thessalonica, to those who were “in the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 1: 1), that Paul wrote when he said, “It is the will of God, even your sanctification” (1 Thess. 4:3), and, “The very God of peace sanctify you wholly” (chap. 5: 23). From these Scriptural facts it will be seen that sanctification is:

A SECOND WORK OF GRACE.

There is a definite reason for this twofoldness in the redemption of the individual believer. Sin exists in the human heart in two forms—actual and inherent; that is, there is a sinful disposition whiich we receive through
natural generation, and there are willful acts of wrong which we commit by the consent of our own will after we reach the age when we have a knowledge of right and wrong. Now, these two forms of sin are entirely different, and can not be identified as one in the individual heart without causing great confusion in this subject. We are in no sense individually responsible for possessing the evil nature that we inherit; but we are wholly responsible for our own sinful acts committed later by the consent of our own will. Repentance can apply only to our own individual acts of wrong; therefore forgiveness and conversion are of necessity limited to that pound, as we shall soon see by the Word of God. Therefore all attempts to identify in redemption these two distinct forms of sin is a gross perversion of the gospel plan of salvation.

We have no need of proving that men are guilty of actual transgressions: the fact is well known and acknowledged. However, the Scripture asserts that “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). But concerning inherent sin, we must give the more exact statements of the Scriptures; for, although it is pretty generally admitted, it is sometimes denied. “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies” (Psa. 58: 3). While the Psalmist is here simply describing a fact, the verse contains at least a strong intimation of an inward bent to evil. But again, he says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity: and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Psa. 51: 5). This text shows that an evil disposition is a part of man from the earliest moment of his existence. And the apostle Paul distinctly affirms that we are all “by nature the children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3). In Rom. 7: 7 13 Paul gives, in relating his own experience, a clear description of sin in these two forms. He says: “I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died . . . For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.” Here the apostle speaks first of his experience as an infant, when he had no knowledge of God’s law, did not even know that it said, “Thou shalt not covet.” At this time, although he was “alive without the tan’,” he had in him something that he calls sin, but “without the law sin was dead.” Later, “when the commandment came” to his understanding, and he transgressed it, then he says, “Sin revived, and I died.” He became “dead in trespasses and in sins” (Eph. 2:1). In other words, the sin that existed in him by nature, while he was ignorant and innocent, afterwards manifested itself in the outward works of actual sin, for which he was responsible. How clear this twofoldness of sin! And this has been the experience of all who have reached the age of moral responsibility. Our foreparents were created “in righteousness and true holiness,” but from this lofty estate they fell, thereby plunging the world into the darkness of sin; for all have received from them, through natural generation, an evil nature, as we have already shown. From this fact it is evident that when we are born into the world though we are perfectly innocent, we are one degree below the line of perfect holiness, since we possess the nature of sin. When we reach the age of moral responsibility and take upon ourselves a sinful life, we fall another degree lower, so that we are now two steps below the original plane of holiness.

Now, the design of Christ is to restore mankind in salvation to the high plane from which they fell; and since they have descended two degrees in sin, there must of necessity be two steps upward in redemption. Are there not the same number of steps in a stairway when one ascends as when he descends? And the last step taken coming down will be the first one to take going up. So in redemption. The last step in the descent was our willful
departure from God into actual sins; so our first step in salvation is willingly to return to God, leaving behind all of the sins that we have committed. “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon” (Isa. 55: 7). “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow” (Isa. 1: 1 ). “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1: 9). This confession and pardon relates solely to our own sinful acts, and this is what Peter terms conversion: “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out” (Acts 3:19). Now Jesus teaches that the converted man is like a little child once more. “Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 18: 3). In other words, the person whose individual sins have been confessed, forgiven, and blotted out, is “converted,” and has now regained the moral condition of spiritual life and innocency from which he departed at the age of accountability (Rom. 7: 9). But the infant is one degree below the plane of perfect holiness; so also is the converted person, who is “like” the little child; in fact, he is even called a “babe” (1 Pet. 2:2; Heb. 5:13), and is exhorted to “go on unto perfection” (Heb. 6: 1), “perfecting holiness in the fear of God” ( 2 Cor. 7: 1); and he is informed by the Word that God hath “perfected forever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED” (Heb. 10:14). Natural babes do many things that they should not do; but the spiritual babes, having a better understanding and having had more experience, need not commit sin again. If, however, they do not watch carefully, and live a spiritual life, the evil nature within will assert itself and manifest its workings in the outward life, and thus lead them back into sin again.

Paul wrote thus to some of these spiritual infants at Corinth: “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat:
for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are YET carnal for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal and walk as men?” (1 Cor. 3: 1 3). These
brethren had from the first of Paul’s ministry there been “babes in Christ,” and had been rather weak in spiritual things; and now as they were giving way to the carnality of their hearts, Paul made use of this external
manifestation to prove to them that they had been carnal all the while. “Ye are yet carnal.” Now, he did not say that this state of quarreling and division is the standard of justified lives—he rebuked them for it—but he placed the first cause for it in the fact that they were yet carnal. The whole passage, carefully studied, shows that “babes in Christ” still have the carnal nature, though it is not necessary, it is even wrong, to give way to it in the
outward life as did these Corinthians whom he addressed. So also the apostle John, in that Epistle in which he speaks so often about being born of God, teaches most clearly that these “sons of God” still stand in need of purification. “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as he is pure”~ (1 John 3:2, 3).

Again I call attention to the text already quoted, that “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and CLEANSE it” (Eph. 5: 25, 26). Furthermore, this fact can be tested in the experience of the apostles themselves. In John 1:1 1 13 we read that those who received Christ during his incarnation and believed on his name became sons of God by being born of God. Christ said to the seventy ~disciples, “Your names are written in heaven” (Luke 10: 20). From these scriptures we are assured that the apostles were born of God, and that their names were recorded in the Book of Life in heaven. And the testimony of Jesus concerning them shows their spiritual condition and acceptance with God: “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” Yet we have in the gospel narrative clear evidences that these apostles still possessed the carnal nature, as when the ten were “moved with indignation” against the two who sought positions of authority over the others (Matt. 20: 20 24). Such desire for preeminence, and such feelings of envy and jealousy, are not consistent with perfect holiness, but are the outcropping of the sinful nature within. On another occasion they “disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest” (Mark 9: 34). On other occasions also there were unmistakable manifestations of this evil principle. Since, therefore, they needed a heart cleansing from this inbred sin, Christ prayed to the Father, “Sanctify them” (John 17:17). (END PART I, PART II COMING SOON)

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2009, 01:25 AM
Again I call attention to the text already quoted, that “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and CLEANSE it” (Eph. 5: 25, 26). Furthermore, this fact can be tested in the experience of the apostles themselves. In John 1:1 1 13 we read that those who received Christ during his incarnation and believed on his name became sons of God by being born of God. Christ said to the seventy ~disciples, “Your names are written in heaven” (Luke 10: 20). From these scriptures we are assured that the apostles were born of God, and that their names were recorded in the Book of Life in heaven. And the testimony of Jesus concerning them shows their spiritual condition and acceptance with God: “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” Yet we have in the gospel narrative clear evidences that these apostles still possessed the carnal nature, as when the ten were “moved with indignation” against the two who sought positions of authority over the others (Matt. 20: 20 24). Such desire for preeminence, and such feelings of envy and jealousy, are not consistent with perfect holiness, but are the outcropping of the sinful nature within. On another occasion they “disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest” (Mark 9: 34). On other occasions also there were unmistakable manifestations of this evil principle. Since, therefore, they needed a heart cleansing from this inbred sin, Christ prayed to the Father, “Sanctify them” (John 17:17).

This twofoldness of salvation work is also shown under the figure of a vine and its branches, in John 15: 1, 2—”I am the true vine, and my Father is the husband man. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.” “I am the vine, ye are the branches.” (verse 5). The individual Christian is a branch of the true vine—Christ. If he ceases to bear the fruit of the Spirit, he is taken away; but if he is a fruitful branch, he is to be purged, so that he can bring forth more fruit. Some one has suggested that since there is nothing in Nature analogous to the purging of a branch, this word purge must signify prune. This can not be, however, for there is both a pruning and a purging spoken of. Prune. “To lop or cut off, as the superfluous branches of trees; to trim.”—Webster. Now, according to Christ’s statement, it is the worthless branches that are pruned off; while the good, fruit bearing branches are to be purged. Of course, this is not exactly true to nature, but natural things and spiritual things are not always analogous in every particular. The promise of a second work was given to the apostles in a threefold form.

1. The purging already mentioned.

2. “I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world can not receive, because it seeth him not, neither knowest him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you”
(John 14: 16, 17).

3. “I will pray the Father,” said Christ in the text last mentioned, “and he shall give you another Comforter”; but in
his prayer he did not say a word about the Father’s giving the Holy Ghost to the apostles, but he did say, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17: 17).

Now, this threefold promise is identified in one experience to be received by them, the Holy Spirit being cause, and purging or sanctification being the result. Proof: “Being sanctified by the Holy Ghost” (Rom. 15: 16). So Christ’s asking the Father to sanctify the apostles was virtually asking him to give them the Holy Ghost; for when the Holy Ghost was received as their Comforter, they were sanctified—”sanctified by the Holy Ghost.” How clear!

So also the purging promised is the same, being the work of the Holy Ghost when received. “And God which knowest the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith” (Acts 15: 8, 9). This text refers to the time when the household of Cornelius were baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 10), and Peter affirms that at that time God gave them the Holy Ghost, “purifying their hearts,” and that it was “even as he did unto us”—the apostles themselves. There is no way under heaven to evade this Scriptural fact that there is a purging of the heart, or sanctification, to be received subsequently to regeneration, and that it is obtained when the Holy Ghost is received as the abiding Comforter. Sin is twofold, and salvation also is twofold; yea, “He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly” (Tit. 3: 5, 6).

TWO WORKS SYMBOLIZED

This truth was typified by the tabernacle of the Mosaic dispensation. This ancient structure, the dwelling place of God on earth, consisted of two apartments, surrounded by a court. The first apartment, which was entered from the court, was termed the “holy place”; and it contained a table of show bread, candlestick, and the golden altar, which stood just before the entrance into the second apartment. This second, or inner, apartment was called the “holy of holies,” or “holiest of all”; and it contained the ark of the covenant, wherein were deposited the stone tables of the law. In the court, directly in front of the entrance to the first apartment, stood the brazen altar, or altar of burnt offerings; also a layer containing water. A description of the tabernacle and its furnishings is given in Heb. 9: 1 8; while the sacrifices are more particularly described in the next chapter verses, 1 4, 11. The priests ministered daily in the first apartment, “but into the second went the high priest alone once every year.” This inner room was the dwelling place of God. This tabernacle of the old dispensation was, we are informed in Heb. 9: 9, “a figure for the time then present”; that is it was intended to symbolize something that was to come later. And according to verse 11, Christ has “come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands.” This old house was a perfect type of “the house of God, which is the church of the living God” (1 Tim. 3: 15), in the New Testament dispensation; for “ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,
to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 2:5). The writer of the Hebrews also asserts that Christ has “his own house; whose house are we” (chap. 3: 6). And Paul affirms that the multitudes
redeemed by the blood of Christ are “a building fitly framed together,[which] groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit” (Eph. 2:16 22). Christ is the great sacrifice, the anti type of all the sin offerings of the law, and by his blood we have redemption and thus become a part of his church or spiritual house.

But the two apartments in the type must have their counterpart in the antitype, and this we will set forth. In the tabernacle there were two altars, as already oh served, and the blood of sin offerings was placed on both
altars (Lev. 4: 7), thus clearly typifying twofold cleaning. So when we come to Christ confessing our sins, he freely forgives them all, and we are justified, receiving the first work of divine grace, which makes us “priests” in the house of God. We minister as it were in the “holy place” of God’s church, as symbolized by the holy place of the old tabernacle. We do not offer sin offerings, for Christ himself “offered one sacrifice for sins forever” (Heb. 10:12), but we do offer sacrifices, typified by the “thank offerings” and “peace offerings” of the law. “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his
name” (Heb. 13: 15). We “offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 2: 5). The show bread on the table typifies our spiritual food, and the candlestick, ever burning, our spiritual light. Those who ministered in the first room of the ancient tabernacle were always before the entrance into the “holiest” place, the second room, but they did not have free access; for in that dispensation “the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest” (Heb. 9: 8). But when Christ expired on the cross of Calvary as a perfect sacrifice for sin, “the vail of the. temple was rent in twain from flue top to the bottom” (Matt. 27: 51); and thus a change was miraculously wrought in the typical house of God, in order to appropriately represent a new order of truth—the introduction of a new or spiritual house, with perfect access, even into its second, or innermost, room. “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the HOLIEST by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the vail, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us dram near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith” (Heb. 10: 19 22). Thus, by a twofold cleansing we receive a twofold experience, as symbolized by the double altars, twofold cleansing, and two apartments of the old house of God.

The law of God was deposited in the second room of the sanctuary; and so this second work of grace is the perfecting grace, wherein God’s laws are placed in our hearts, and we are ourselves the dwelling place of the
Most High! Halleluiah! “For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them” (Heb. 10:14 16). These texts, in connection with verses 19 22 just quoted, show positively that sanctification admits us
into the “holiest,” where the laws of God are inscribed in our hearts, this being accomplished by the perfect renovation of our nature by the baptism of the Holy Ghost as a second work of grace. “Therefore being justified
by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ [the first work of grace]: by whom also we have access by faith into this [second] grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God ... because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us” (Rom. 5:1, 2, 5).

APOSTOLIC EXAMPLES OF TWO WORKS.
We have now shown by many texts and considerations that there are two distinct works of grace, the first called new birth, regeneration, justification, or conversion; the second termed either the Holy Ghost reception or
baptism, as cause, or else, sanctification, perfection, etc., as effect. The crowning proof of this twofoldness, however, is the recorded fact that the apostolic churches were saved according to this plan. We will notice
several examples.

1. The apostles themselves. This point has already been considered. They were saved men; Jesus promised them the Holy Ghost, with his resultant work—purging or sanctification; on the day of Pentecost they received
this baptism of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2).

2. The Jerusalem church. The penitent Jews on the day of Pentecost were commanded by Peter to “repent and be baptized,” with the promise that they also should “receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” They repented and were
baptized (Acts 2: 38, 41). Others also were saved later (verse 47; 4: 4). Still later we find the company of saved people—”the multitude of them that believed”—met together in earnest prayer. “And when they had prayed, the
place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they mere all filled with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 4: 29 31).

3. The Samaritan church. “Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ unto them,” with the result that many believed and were baptized (Acts 8: 5 8). “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem
heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: who when they were come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost . . .Then laid they their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost” (verse 14 17). Now, these are two separate occurrences, in two meetings, held by different ministers. There is no possibility of uniting them in one work.

4. The household of Cornelius. Cornelius was “a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always” (Acts 10: 2). His prayers were effectual, for an angel
was sent to him, who said, “Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God” (verse 4). He was accepted of God, for he knew the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which began in Galilee, and he
was a righteous man (verses 34 37). We are not informed just how or by whom Cornelius had heard this preaching of Jesus; but we do know this, that Philip, who had such a stirring revival at Samaria, had also been at
Cæsarea, where Cornelius resided (Acts 8:40). In fact, Philip’s home was there at a later date, and it may have been there at that time, and in that city the Spirit of God was poured out even upon his daughters (Acts 21: 8, 9). By divine direction Peter went to visit this man, and preached to him. “‘While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the Word”; and the Jews were astonished “because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 10:44, 45).

5. The disciples at Ephesus. In Acts 18: 24 28 we read of the preaching of Apollos at Ephesus, and of there being brethren there. Afterwards Paul “came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have
ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? They said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost” (Acts 19: 1, 2).

A number of things are implied in this question of the apostle:
That there is a Holy Ghost;
That it is possible for men to receive him;
That he is given to believers;
That he is given at a time subsequent to their becoming disciples or believers. “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them” (verse 6). Later, writing to this church at Ephesus, Paul says, “AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).

6. The Thessalonian church. In Acts 17 we read that Paul went to Thessalonica and there preached for about three weeks, during which time a great multitude believed. But when certain Jews stirred up the people into a
violent tumult, the brethren sent Paul and Silas to Berea. This was in the year A. D. 53. After remaining at Berea for a while, Paul went on down to Athens. Sometime later the apostle, solicitous for the welfare of the brethren at Thessalonica, sent Timothy to inquire concerning them; while he himself remained at Athens (1 Thess. 3:1, 2). Timothy returned with an excellent report of their spiritual condition and activity (verse 6); whereupon Paul wrote the First Epistle to the Thessalonians, in which he commended them very highly because of their faith and obedience to the Word. This was in A. D. 54, one year after the meeting which he held there. He exhorted them to carefully obey the things which they had received of him, in order that they might please God and abound more and more. Then he said, “Ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus,” and proceeded
to enumerate some of these commandments, asserting that they were the will of God: 1. “Your sanctification”; 2. “That ye should abstain from fornication”; 3. “That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor”; 4. “That no man should go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter” (1 Thess. 4:1 6). One of these commandments was that they should be sanctified. Again, he says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it” (chap. 5: 23, 24).

I trust this proves sufficient in proving there are two works of grace. Apologizes for the poor format, it's the best I could do without spending an outrageous amount of time on it. :D

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2009, 01:31 AM
As you started with 1 John, the answer continues...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Notice a few verses earlier:

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Obviously those being addressed in verse 8 were NOT in fellowship with Christ, NOR were they in fellowship with the local Christians. More in depth proof can be provided if need be.

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 12:01 PM
You must place these scriptures into context.
Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?
vs 7 He that is dead is freed from sin
vs 11 dead to sin but alive unto God through Christ.
Rom 5:1 justified by faith ... through Jesus Christ.

Dead to sin in Christ alive unto righteousness in Christ


If we have Christ we are dead to sin and alive unto righteousness.


Hard headed Jews trying to make their righteousness by the works of the law. Righteousness is by the grace of God through Jesus Christ

Implication that the Christian is placed back under the penality of sin when they cannot die twice any more than Christ can be recrucified for sin.


Legalism binds heavy burdens on the believer that Christ died to lift from him. Laciviousness makes the grace of God an occasion to sin wantonly shameing our Lord who was crucified for sin.


If the Truth has made you free then you are free indeed.
Jude 24 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

Is not my Jesus able to keep me from falling? Is it not His exceeding joy?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If the Truth has made you free then you are free indeed.
Jude 24 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

Is not my Jesus able to keep me from falling? Is it not His exceeding joy?

My question therefore is if you believe Jesus can keep you from falling why then do you sin, is sin not falling?

If the truth has made you free from sin, why then do you sin, since it no longer has dominion over you?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 12:10 PM
Yes, I'm saying that righteous sinners occasionally do unrighteous things. But as for being judged according to our deeds, Paul says that we are judged as to whether our deeds were motivated by a pursuit of glory, honor, and immortality, or if our deeds were motivated by selfish ambition.



Yes, as Paul says, the wages of sin is death, BUT the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord. So while we are motivated by our pursuit of glory, honor, and immortality, we also acknowledge that our deeds are not meritorious but that God is granting us eternal life as a gift.

What you are saying does not add up, you are saying that there are righteous people that are at the same time unrighteous, clean yet unclean, just yet unjust.

That is scriptualy wrong is it not? It is not how we are made of God.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 18th 2009, 02:07 PM
If the Truth has made you free then you are free indeed.
Jude 24 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

Is not my Jesus able to keep me from falling? Is it not His exceeding joy?

My question therefore is if you believe Jesus can keep you from falling why then do you sin, is sin not falling?
That would imply that Jesus cannot do what He has promised. If I had not known Jesus I would not know my sin. Because of the blood of Christ I am no longer subject to the penalty of sin. I have been adjudicated as sinless before the Father. Case closed in God's eyes.


If the truth has made you free from sin, why then do you sin, since it no longer has dominion over you?
In truth we who have been born again by the power of God have two natures. The old nature that God considers dead and burried with Christ and a new nature created in us by Christ. Sin does not dominate my life in Christ. I am aware of sin in my life because the Holy Spirit reveals it to me and shows me my need of the advocacy ministry of Christ in this new life. The old nature and the new nature war against one another and the closer we walk with the Lord the more intense the conflict.

Only God can reveal these things to those who are His. Gal 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath openly been set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 03:20 PM
That would imply that Jesus cannot do what He has promised. If I had not known Jesus I would not know my sin. Because of the blood of Christ I am no longer subject to the penalty of sin. I have been adjudicated as sinless before the Father. Case closed in God's eyes.


In truth we who have been born again by the power of God have two natures. The old nature that God considers dead and burried with Christ and a new nature created in us by Christ. Sin does not dominate my life in Christ. I am aware of sin in my life because the Holy Spirit reveals it to me and shows me my need of the advocacy ministry of Christ in this new life. The old nature and the new nature war against one another and the closer we walk with the Lord the more intense the conflict.

Only God can reveal these things to those who are His. Gal 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath openly been set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If you believe that Jesus can do what he has promised, why then do you sin?

Who's will do we follow? God is not unholy/sinful so if we are to be holy as he is who's will is it when we sin and are we following god when we sin?

Jude 24 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

God has not made those that are born again with two natures, only that which is true, righteous, holy. For us to have two natures would mean that we have not put off the old man with its sin yet claim to have put on the new man.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jul 18th 2009, 05:20 PM
What you are saying does not add up, you are saying that there are righteous people that are at the same time unrighteous, clean yet unclean, just yet unjust.

That is scriptualy wrong is it not? It is not how we are made of God.

Firstfruits

If I said that righteous people are at the same time unrighteous, then I would contradict myself. But what the Bible teaches is that there are righteous people who sometimes do unrighteous things.

Sanctification isn't about attaining moral purity in this lifetime. It's all about what the Holy Spirit is doing in us to help us see ourselves the way we really are, to see others as they are, and to see God as he really is. Sanctification is all about a transformation of our inner self, a changing of the mind, a spiritual awakening. As Paul says, we will offer our selves as a living sacrifice as a natural result of the renewing of our mind.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:1-2

As young Christians we start out by attempting to become Pharisees, which is to say, we attempt to act pious. Many of us, with the greatest and noblest of intentions, wanting to please God and obey Jesus, attempt to live the most godly and morally pure lives possible. But as we mature in Christ, we come to realize it was all an act. We weren't as good on the inside as we appeared on the outside.

Eventually, and by God's grace, we learn what Paul meant when he talked about the renewal of the mind, and how we got it all backwards at the first. Rather than changing the outside, we need to change on the inside first and once having changed on the inside the outside behavior takes care of itself. Sanctification is all about cleaning the inside of the cup, if you know what I mean.

Righteous sinners are those in whom the spirit is at work to clean the inside. As the righteous sinner is getting a renewed mind, it becomes easier to give his body as a living and holy sacrifice.

Contrary to what my Nazarene friends might say, entire sanctification is not possible in this lifetime. And Paul, the chief of sinners, declares that complete moral purity is a future hope.

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 05:27 PM
If I said that righteous people are at the same time unrighteous, then I would contradict myself. But what the Bible teaches is that there are righteous people who sometimes do unrighteous things.

Sanctification isn't about attaining moral purity in this lifetime. It's all about what the Holy Spirit is doing in us to help us see ourselves the way we really are, to see others as they are, and to see God as he really is. Sanctification is all about a transformation of our inner self, a changing of the mind, a spiritual awakening. As Paul says, we will offer our selves as a living sacrifice as a natural result of the renewing of our mind.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:1-2

As young Christians we start out by attempting to become Pharisees, which is to say, we attempt to act pious. Many of us, with the greatest and noblest of intentions, wanting to please God and obey Jesus, attempt to live the most godly and morally pure lives possible. But as we mature in Christ, we come to realize it was all an act. We weren't as good on the inside as we appeared on the outside.

Eventually, and by God's grace, we learn what Paul meant when he talked about the renewal of the mind, and how we got it all backwards at the first. Rather than changing the outside, we need to change on the inside first and once having changed on the inside the outside behavior takes care of itself. Sanctification is all about cleaning the inside of the cup, if you know what I mean.

Righteous sinners are those in whom the spirit is at work to clean the inside. As the righteous sinner is getting a renewed mind, it becomes easier to give his body as a living and holy sacrifice.

Contrary to what my Nazarene friends might say, entire sanctification is not possible in this lifetime. And Paul, the chief of sinners, declares that complete moral purity is a future hope.

Is it not true that no matter how you look at it, we know that Gods will is that we do not sin and when we do knowing that it is unacceptable to God, are at that time also unacceptable to God until we repent of our sin?

Firstfruits

BroRog
Jul 18th 2009, 06:03 PM
Is it not true that no matter how you look at it, we know that Gods will is that we do not sin and when we do knowing that it is unacceptable to God, are at that time also unacceptable to God until we repent of our sin?

Firstfruits

No, on the contrary, while God hates sin, he does not break fellowship with righteous sinners. As Paul says, the difference is whether we are walking in the spirit and being led by the Spirit. Those who are being led by the Spirit do not worry about being out of fellowship with God as they are not living a life of fear anymore.

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. Romans 8:12-17

The point is this. God doesn't hand us a rule book and then walk away. Paul is painting a completely different picture. God himself is leading us, not as slaves but as sons. God is intimately involved in the process of our sanctification and is not going to fall out of fellowship with us every time we sin. The Spirit of God remains with us, helping us see the error of our ways, helping us to get the big picture, but also helping us to see that we remain children of God through the entire process.

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 06:14 PM
The point is this. God doesn't hand us a rule book and then walk away. Paul is painting a completely different picture. God himself is leading us, not as slaves but as sons. God is intimately involved in the process of our sanctification and is not going to fall out of fellowship with us every time we sin. The Spirit of God remains with us, helping us see the error of our ways, helping us to get the big picture, but also helping us to see that we remain children of God through the entire process.:pp
/we need a dancing emoticon!

I believe this is a result of Reconciliation and Justification!

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 06:18 PM
I trust this proves sufficient in proving there are two works of grace.No. Don't see it. I just see very bad application of scripture.

Debra R
Jul 18th 2009, 06:27 PM
No, on the contrary, while God hates sin, he does not break fellowship with righteous sinners. As Paul says, the difference is whether we are walking in the spirit and being led by the Spirit. Those who are being led by the Spirit do not worry about being out of fellowship with God as they are not living a life of fear anymore.

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. Romans 8:12-17

The point is this. God doesn't hand us a rule book and then walk away. Paul is painting a completely different picture. God himself is leading us, not as slaves but as sons. God is intimately involved in the process of our sanctification and is not going to fall out of fellowship with us every time we sin. The Spirit of God remains with us, helping us see the error of our ways, helping us to get the big picture, but also helping us to see that we remain children of God through the entire process.

Hi :)
I was just reading and your post made me think of ...
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

It's a continual process. A continual cleansing. We err, we confess, He cleanses us. We are molded into Christ's likeness. A daily process.

I haven't read all the thread, just the last few posts. They caught my interest. :) Just wanted to add a few thoughts. Hope that was okay.

:) Good post by the way.

Blessings :hug:

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2009, 07:31 PM
No. Don't see it. I just see very bad application of scripture.


18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

notuptome
Jul 18th 2009, 07:51 PM
God has not made those that are born again with two natures, only that which is true, righteous, holy. For us to have two natures would mean that we have not put off the old man with its sin yet claim to have put on the new man.
Paul apparently differs. Rom 7:15-25 I quote from vs22-25 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So, then, with my mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.

Of course maybe Paul did not put off the old man and put on the new man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Desperaux
Jul 18th 2009, 08:16 PM
Revelation 3:16
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 08:33 PM
What's up with all the one liners? Ya'll getting tired?
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:What does this mean? I already told you I experience it too. I am free from sin my friend and I just needed to see myself in Christ and him crucified and walk as I received him. That's having the eyes of my understanding enlightened to who I am in Christ. Dead (2Co 5:14; Col 3:3).

If after they received the Holy Ghost after the resurrection, they were endued with power from on High, and this is the second work of grace then there must be a third....for the pouring out was done again just a few chapters later. Filled and continually filled. This pouring out and filling up is not for us but for the working of the ministry. Again, horrible application of scripture. There is a lifetime of works of grace for the believer continually by faith as he walks..... It's grace effectually working in us to will and do....

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 09:41 PM
No, on the contrary, while God hates sin, he does not break fellowship with righteous sinners. As Paul says, the difference is whether we are walking in the spirit and being led by the Spirit. Those who are being led by the Spirit do not worry about being out of fellowship with God as they are not living a life of fear anymore.

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. Romans 8:12-17

The point is this. God doesn't hand us a rule book and then walk away. Paul is painting a completely different picture. God himself is leading us, not as slaves but as sons. God is intimately involved in the process of our sanctification and is not going to fall out of fellowship with us every time we sin. The Spirit of God remains with us, helping us see the error of our ways, helping us to get the big picture, but also helping us to see that we remain children of God through the entire process.

Knowing that God hates sin, do you believe that if we unjust that we shall enter Heaven?

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 09:42 PM
How can the Reconciled and Justified be apart and unjust?

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 09:48 PM
Paul apparently differs. Rom 7:15-25 I quote from vs22-25 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So, then, with my mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.

Of course maybe Paul did not put off the old man and put on the new man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Do we accept the following scripture?

Eph 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 09:52 PM
How can the Reconciled and Justified be apart and unjust?

Sorry, but what was your answer to the question?

Knowing that God hates sin, do you believe that if we unjust that we shall enter Heaven?

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 18th 2009, 10:03 PM
How are we justified?

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 10:09 PM
Ff, I am asking why you'd suggest we who are Justified are unjust. I answered your question with a question because your question is not just. :)

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 10:17 PM
Ff, I am asking why you'd suggest we who are Justified are unjust. I answered your question with a question because your question is not just. :)

To sin is to be unjust/unholy/unrighteous.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 10:23 PM
How are we justified?

The following scriptures tell us how we are justified, now can you tell me what it means to be justified?

Rom 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 18th 2009, 10:27 PM
The following scriptures tell us how we are justified, now can you tell me what it means to be justified?

Rom 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Firstfruits
How does one become unjustified? If Christ justifies us with His blood and His sacrifice, are we able to become unjustified?

This makes no sense to me. We are saved and justified by Christ and His work, not anything we can or cannot do.

VerticalReality
Jul 18th 2009, 10:30 PM
I will ask a question presented to me by a friend of mine . . .

How do you reverse circumcision?

Vhayes
Jul 18th 2009, 10:34 PM
You can't. It's a seal.

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 10:35 PM
How does one become unjustified? If Christ justifies us with His blood and His sacrifice, are we able to become unjustified?

This makes no sense to me. We are saved and justified by Christ and His work, not anything we can or cannot do.

If you have been made clean/righteous and you sin, which is unrighteous you are unjust because of sin.

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 18th 2009, 10:36 PM
How was Abraham counted as righteous?

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 10:37 PM
To sin is to be unjust/unholy/unrighteous.

Firstfruits

.....and how is one just, holy, righteouss?

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 10:38 PM
You can't. It's a seal.

Are you saying that you cannot grieve the Holy Spirit?

Can we not choose to not follow the Holy Spirits leading?

Firstfruits

Vhayes
Jul 18th 2009, 10:38 PM
By accepting the gift of salvation BY grace THROUGH faith.

It's all about Jesus. All of it.

Vhayes
Jul 18th 2009, 10:39 PM
Are you saying that you cannot grieve the Holy Spirit?

Can we not choose to not follow the Holy Spirits leading?

Firstfruits
We can and DO grieve the Holy Spirit - but that doesn't mean He throws us away or leaves us.

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 10:39 PM
If you have been made clean/righteous and you sin, which is unrighteous you are unjust because of sin.

FirstfruitsThen it is impossible to be renewed again unto repentance!
Close shop and your bibles and lets go home, we all are hell bound!
:B

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 10:40 PM
.....and how is one just, holy, righteouss?

This is the question you did not answer.

Eph 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 10:42 PM
Are you saying that you cannot grieve the Holy Spirit?

Can we not choose to not follow the Holy Spirits leading?

FirstfruitsYou can also frustrate Him by rebuilding what is destroyed putting yourself back up under law and flesh.

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 10:43 PM
By accepting the gift of salvation BY grace THROUGH faith.

It's all about Jesus. All of it.

Are you saying then that when we follow the Holy Spirit /God that we will fulfil the lust of the flesh/sin?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2009, 10:44 PM
You can also frustrate Him by rebuilding what is destroyed putting yourself back up under law and flesh.

So why then do we still sin since it frustrates the Holy Spirit, as it means that we are not following him?

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 18th 2009, 10:45 PM
If you have been made clean/righteous and you sin, which is unrighteous you are unjust because of sin.

Firstfruits

Did Abraham not sin? David? Jonah? Peter? Paul?

Were they counted unrighteous?

Sirus
Jul 18th 2009, 10:49 PM
So why then do we still sin since it frustrates the Holy Spirit, as it means that we are not following him?

Firstfruitsbelievers sin when they choose to

notuptome
Jul 18th 2009, 11:55 PM
So why then do we still sin since it frustrates the Holy Spirit, as it means that we are not following him?
I have met mohamadians that use circular reasoning to avoid learning the truth.

Do not call unclean that which the Lord has cleansed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Stan777
Jul 19th 2009, 12:16 AM
What can we expect from God when we are disobedient to his will?

When we sin are not being disobedient to Gods will?

Firstfruits

Nobody is perfect. We are all sinners, except for Jesus. He knew no sin. Everyone is on a journey to be holy like God wants us to be. The Holy Spirit will guide us. All we have to do is follow.
Proverbs 3:5,6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Have a blessed weekend.

faithfulfriend
Jul 19th 2009, 04:52 AM
Nobody is perfect. We are all sinners, except for Jesus. He knew no sin. Everyone is on a journey to be holy like God wants us to be. The Holy Spirit will guide us. All we have to do is follow.
Proverbs 3:5,6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Have a blessed weekend.

The Holy Spirit will not lead you into sin. Therefore if you are being led into sin, it isn't the Holy Spirit that you are following.

Sirus
Jul 19th 2009, 04:58 AM
Ok so....?? One sin after being born again and we're doomed? That's not exactly Fatherly love, fellowship, and chastisement for correction and growth to a son, is it?

Sirus
Jul 19th 2009, 06:14 AM
The Holy Spirit will not lead you into sin. Therefore if you are being led into sin, it isn't the Holy Spirit that you are following.I'm curious ff, since you believe in a second work of grace do you also believe in sinless perfectionism? They are often found together. This would explain the conflict here.

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2009, 09:53 AM
believers sin when they choose to

Therefore as Jesus has said, they are slaves to sin. Sin calls and they do what sin asks, or Satan calls and they do what Satan asks.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2009, 09:58 AM
I have met mohamadians that use circular reasoning to avoid learning the truth.

Do not call unclean that which the Lord has cleansed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree with you, however sin is unclean, sin is unholy, sin is unrighteous.

God did not call us to unrighteousness/uncleaness/sin.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2009, 10:07 AM
Nobody is perfect. We are all sinners, except for Jesus. He knew no sin. Everyone is on a journey to be holy like God wants us to be. The Holy Spirit will guide us. All we have to do is follow.
Proverbs 3:5,6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Have a blessed weekend.

If we are in Christ or Christ in us; Gal 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Jn 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) He that saith He abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

What is expected of us who say we belong to Jesus?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2009, 10:11 AM
The Holy Spirit will not lead you into sin. Therefore if you are being led into sin, it isn't the Holy Spirit that you are following.

Amen Faithfulfriend!!!!!

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2009, 10:17 AM
I'm curious ff, since you believe in a second work of grace do you also believe in sinless perfectionism? They are often found together. This would explain the conflict here.

Sins are spots and wrinkles.

Eph 5:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Tim 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Jas 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 Pet 1:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Jud 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 19th 2009, 06:16 PM
Sins are spots and wrinkles.
Better to enter into heaven spotted and wrinkled that not to enter at all.



(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27)
Eph 5:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27)
A work only Christ can accomplish

1 Tim 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14)
Keep we this in the spirit or the flesh?



(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27)
Jas 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27)
No one can fulfill what you imply


(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19)
1 Pet 1:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19)
Only He was without blemish or spot. Certainly none of us would make so brazen a claim. Any good in me is Christ and not me.


(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23)
Jud 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23)
Even worldly Christians are saved and can never be lost.

We cannot live a sinless life. We live a life in which sin has been vanquished. Sin no longer demands we be sent to hell. Jesus has satisfied the law for sin to us. His faith pleased the Father. We abide in His faith or we are not Christians. Our faith can only produce self righteousness which is not received by the Father and is sin.

To suppose that we can live a sinless life is to demean all that Christ has done on the cross and what He does now by interceeding for us before the Father in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2009, 06:29 PM
Better to enter into heaven spotted and wrinkled that not to enter at all.


A work only Christ can accomplish

Keep we this in the spirit or the flesh?


No one can fulfill what you imply

Only He was without blemish or spot. Certainly none of us would make so brazen a claim. Any good in me is Christ and not me.

Even worldly Christians are saved and can never be lost.

We cannot live a sinless life. We live a life in which sin has been vanquished. Sin no longer demands we be sent to hell. Jesus has satisfied the law for sin to us. His faith pleased the Father. We abide in His faith or we are not Christians. Our faith can only produce self righteousness which is not received by the Father and is sin.

To suppose that we can live a sinless life is to demean all that Christ has done on the cross and what He does now by interceeding for us before the Father in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sins are spots and wrinlkes.

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 19th 2009, 06:37 PM
Sins are spots and wrinlkes.
Christ knows those who are His. He did not come to call the righteous but sinners and publicans.

Let him who is without sin repent.
1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word in not in us.

John is writing to Christians not unbelievers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Vhayes
Jul 19th 2009, 07:48 PM
Sins are spots and wrinlkes.

Firstfruits
Revelation 7
14 - I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2009, 08:37 PM
Christ knows those who are His. He did not come to call the righteous but sinners and publicans.

Let him who is without sin repent.
1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word in not in us.

John is writing to Christians not unbelievers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That is if we sin, what then if we do not sin?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2009, 08:41 PM
Revelation 7
14 - I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Once our robes are clean, how do we maintain its cleaness?

Firstfruits

faithfulfriend
Jul 19th 2009, 08:47 PM
I'm curious ff, since you believe in a second work of grace do you also believe in sinless perfectionism? They are often found together. This would explain the conflict here.

What's your definition of "sinless perfection?"

There is a type of Christian perfection that is attainable in this life that enables a person to live holy, righteous, godly, and 100% free from sin in this life.

I don't like the term "sinless perfection" because there are too many misunderstandings and misconceptions as to what it really means and what it is.

faithfulfriend
Jul 19th 2009, 08:50 PM
Christ knows those who are His. He did not come to call the righteous but sinners and publicans.

Let him who is without sin repent.
1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word in not in us.

John is writing to Christians not unbelievers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Incorrect.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Those that commit sin are of the devil and are NOT God's children.

If you read a few verses earlier from verse 8 in chapter 1 you will see:

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Very obvious here that those being addressed were among Christians but were NOT Christians themselves, for they were NOT in fellowship with Christians nor with Christ.

Verse 8 is simply declaring the universal guilt of mankind before obtaining salvation, just like "all have sinned" and "there is none righteous" before being saved.

BroRog
Jul 19th 2009, 09:54 PM
Incorrect.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Those that commit sin are of the devil and are NOT God's children.

If you read a few verses earlier from verse 8 in chapter 1 you will see:

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Very obvious here that those being addressed were among Christians but were NOT Christians themselves, for they were NOT in fellowship with Christians nor with Christ.

Verse 8 is simply declaring the universal guilt of mankind before obtaining salvation, just like "all have sinned" and "there is none righteous" before being saved.

John is writing to a group of families, some of whom are undoubtedly believers and others are not. He writes to them because some false teachers have come to their town, teaching things that are contrary to the original teaching of the Apostles, and John sets out to assure them that the original teaching is true and remains true.

His audience are second generation children of those whom John originally taught. These young men and women had not heard the teaching directly from John, perhaps they heard the teaching from their parents. John is writing so that these young people might also hear the original teaching and believe.

In the following passage from 1John, the term "children" represents the entire congregation. The term "Fathers" represents John's original audience, who are the parents of those who have grown up in church. The term "young men" represent the children of John's original audience: a second generation removed from the events of Jesus' ministry.


I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake. I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Sirus
Jul 20th 2009, 12:49 AM
What's your definition of "sinless perfection?"

There is a type of Christian perfection that is attainable in this life that enables a person to live holy, righteous, godly, and 100% free from sin in this life.

I don't like the term "sinless perfection" because there are too many misunderstandings and misconceptions as to what it really means and what it is.I mean the sinless perfection that says you absolutely cannot will yourself to sin. I don't like the term either and have been accused many times of believing this. I do not.

I do believe we are all called to attain perfection (teleios -Phi 3:15-16). Not resurrection perfection (teleioō -Phi 3:12). I know Jesus said sin no more. He did not do all he did for us and to us for us to continue in sin. That said, in 18 years I have not personally known anyone that does not ever sin or claims they do not.
Is it possible? All things are possible with God.
Should we press forward toward the mark? Yes.
Is it better to sin once a day or once a week than every hour of the day? Yes.
Do I knock those that are pressing forward and progressively growing and put a burden and yoke on them that if they sin while positionally in Christ, they're not really in Christ? No.
Is it a second work of grace that causes one to attain such righteousness? No.
It's thousands and thousands of works of grace by the Spirit of grace -unmerited favor and divine assistance received 'by faith'.
As you have received Christ, so walk 'in him'. You are complete 'in him'.
Why do you think the epistles open and close with grace be unto you etc....
I especially like how Peter put it;
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect (katartizō), establish, strengthen, settle you.

faithfulfriend
Jul 20th 2009, 02:40 AM
I mean the sinless perfection that says you absolutely cannot will yourself to sin. I don't like the term either and have been accused many times of believing this. I do not.

Some take sinless perfection to mean that I have lost all ABILITY to commit sin ever again. That is not true at all. I still have the power of choice as to whether I will give into temptation, or whether to resist temptation and keep victory in my soul. Naturally the devil tempts because I'm a human being and I have human desires, passions, and likes.

But the power of God gives me the ability to stay free from sin, meaning having the power to resist 100% temptations, and remain free from committing sin.

There is also a large misconception as to what sin is, and how it's imputed to individuals.


I do believe we are all called to attain perfection (teleios -Phi 3:15-16). Not resurrection perfection (teleioō -Phi 3:12). I know Jesus said sin no more. He did not do all he did for us and to us for us to continue in sin. That said, in 18 years I have not personally known anyone that does not ever sin or claims they do not.

It's a shame that you have not met anyone so that you could witness the power of God personally. I've been blessed to be raised in a congregation full of saints who live completely sin free, thus in a sense it is all I have ever known. I was never raised in a church where people still were bound by sin and could not help themselves. God's power is real and apparent still in this day and time.


Is it possible? All things are possible with God.
Should we press forward toward the mark? Yes.
Is it better to sin once a day or once a week than every hour of the day? Yes.
Do I knock those that are pressing forward and progressively growing and put a burden and yoke on them that if they sin while positionally in Christ, they're not really in Christ? No.


As harsh as it may sound, those who are in Christ do not commit sin. Those who commit sin are not in Christ. A profession of salvation does not count for much if there is sin in the individuals life.



Is it a second work of grace that causes one to attain such righteousness? No.

It has been a second work of grace called Entire Sanctification that has given me complete victory over sin, thus my testimony in my own personal life contradicts your statement. Scripture can be argued and debated all day long, but my testimony cannot be disputed.



It's thousands and thousands of works of grace by the Spirit of grace -unmerited favor and divine assistance received 'by faith'.
As you have received Christ, so walk 'in him'. You are complete 'in him'.
Why do you think the epistles open and close with grace be unto you etc....
I especially like how Peter put it;
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect (katartizō), establish, strengthen, settle you.

Grace is the power to stand, not an excuse to fall.

Christian perfection is another subject we could cover.

Sirus
Jul 20th 2009, 03:58 AM
But the power of God gives me the ability to stay free from sin, meaning having the power to resist 100% temptations, and remain free from committing sin.Amen! I often say this (from scripture)....
Our One Spirit Baptism that saves (past-present-future), which is being baptized into the body of Christ so that we are crucified, buried, and raised is the power of God to those that are saved and never fails. It is 100% successful. It is the way of escape given to believers and never fails. It has never failed me. Trusting prayer, 'confessing' scripture, reading scripture, 'going to church', fasting, and any other religious exercise that may be good to do has failed. Faith in Him and His Cross has not, ever.



It's a shame that you have not met anyone so that you could witness the power of God personally. I've been blessed to be raised in a congregation full of saints who live completely sin free, thus in a sense it is all I have ever known. I was never raised in a church where people still were bound by sin and could not help themselves. God's power is real and apparent still in this day and time.Why do I need to witness what I experience? I wasn't raised 'in church'. You are correct though in that I have not found a local church where I live that lives their crucifixion with Christ.



It has been a second work of grace called Entire Sanctification that has given me complete victory over sin, thus my testimony in my own personal life contradicts your statement. Scripture can be argued and debated all day long, but my testimony cannot be disputed.No! You're not getting it. You are experiencing a work of grace every time you overcome the world the flesh and the devil by the power of God through the cross of Christ. If you do this daily all day as I do how could it be just a second work and not 1000's? Forget your religious term 'entire sanctification'. Again, just because there was a day (like myself) you learned the 'entire sanctification' you have had since 2000 years ago doesn't mean it wasn't waiting on you to learn it before you did and it doesn't mean the walk is over.



Grace is the power to stand, not an excuse to fall.Amen, Amen!



Christian perfection is another subject we could cover. That IS the subject I just covered.

Sirus
Jul 20th 2009, 04:15 AM
For the sake of those reading, let me post how we are sancified.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
by faith
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
..........
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Alaska
Jul 20th 2009, 07:00 AM
As harsh as it may sound, those who are in Christ do not commit sin. Those who commit sin are not in Christ. A profession of salvation does not count for much if there is sin in the individuals life.



Pro. 27:
5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
7 The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.

Analyzing much of what is called Christianity today, and reading between the lines of what they teach, it is as though sin is expected to be committed by the Christian. As though they don't know about the verses that show that his very purpose in coming and dying for us was to free us from committing sin. There is that form of godliness in professing Christ but a denial of the power of godliness.
To say he came to 'save' us from hell in spite of our powerless state of living in sin, is opposite to the message that he came to save us from sin by the power he was able to get for us by his death for us (our death) by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Sin is backsliding, plain and simple. It is not walking in the Spirit. It is walking in the flesh, which is death. It is a form of denying Christ.
Paul warns believers, if they walk in the flesh, they will die.
Christians are supposed to be the body of Christ, a continuation of the life Christ lived, being in the flesh, just like us. Same temptations.
No wonder that the spirit of antichrist is manifested in denying that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: If he really was flesh like we, then sin was defeated in that same flesh that we have.
Isn't that the message in so many churches, that sin cannot be defeated in this flesh and that Jesus came to save us from hell in spite of that "fact" so that Jesus died for us "so we don't have to". But that is a half truth. Jesus died for us so we could die too.
So we can die to the old man and live in newness, away from the shame of committing sin.
Even if members in a church are not living an overcoming life by his grace/strength they should at least not deny him by denying the message that that is why he died for us.
Acknowledging a backslidden state is the first step in being able to be delivered from it by the true gospel message.

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 03:29 PM
Pro. 27:
5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
7 The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.

Analyzing much of what is called Christianity today, and reading between the lines of what they teach, it is as though sin is expected to be committed by the Christian. As though they don't know about the verses that show that his very purpose in coming and dying for us was to free us from committing sin. There is that form of godliness in professing Christ but a denial of the power of godliness.
To say he came to 'save' us from hell in spite of our powerless state of living in sin, is opposite to the message that he came to save us from sin by the power he was able to get for us by his death for us (our death) by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Sin is backsliding, plain and simple. It is not walking in the Spirit. It is walking in the flesh, which is death. It is a form of denying Christ.
Paul warns believers, if they walk in the flesh, they will die.
Christians are supposed to be the body of Christ, a continuation of the life Christ lived, being in the flesh, just like us. Same temptations.
No wonder that the spirit of antichrist is manifested in denying that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: If he really was flesh like we, then sin was defeated in that same flesh that we have.
Isn't that the message in so many churches, that sin cannot be defeated in this flesh and that Jesus came to save us from hell in spite of that "fact" so that Jesus died for us "so we don't have to". But that is a half truth. Jesus died for us so we could die too.
So we can die to the old man and live in newness, away from the shame of committing sin.
Even if members in a church are not living an overcoming life by his grace/strength they should at least not deny him by denying the message that that is why he died for us.
Acknowledging a backslidden state is the first step in being able to be delivered from it by the true gospel message.

Amen Alaska!!!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 20th 2009, 03:39 PM
Not many addressed the question earlier.

How do you reverse circumcision?

Also, what does this Scripture mean?

1Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 03:44 PM
Not many addressed the question earlier.

How do you reverse circumcision?

Also, what does this Scripture mean?

1Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

How do you reverse circumcision?

before I answer the question what does it mean to be circumcised?

Firstfruits

faithfulfriend
Jul 20th 2009, 04:04 PM
Not many addressed the question earlier.

How do you reverse circumcision?

Also, what does this Scripture mean?

1Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

NT circumcision is spiritual circumcision of the heart. You can fall away from being a Christian (unless of course you believe OSAS :lol:)

John146
Jul 20th 2009, 04:05 PM
What can we expect from God when we are disobedient to his will?

When we sin are not being disobedient to Gods will?

FirstfruitsI asked, "Are you trying to say that if we sin even once after we're saved then we will be cast out?". Please answer the question instead of asking more questions.

faithfulfriend
Jul 20th 2009, 04:20 PM
I asked, "Are you trying to say that if we sin even once after we're saved then we will be cast out?". Please answer the question instead of asking more questions.

How many sins did Adam commit before he was a sinner? Judas by transgression (sin) fell.


Ezk. 33:12-13 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression...neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth...if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.”


Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Those who sin are spiritually dead

Rom. 6:13 “But yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead.”
Rom. 7:5 “For when we were [past tense] in the flesh, the motions of sins...did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.”
Rom. 8:6 “For to be carnally minded is death.”
Eph. 2:1 “And you hath he quickened [made alive], who were[past tense] dead in trespasses and sins.”
Col. 2:13 “And you, being dead in your sins...”
1 Tim. 5:6 “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.”


Notice the words "WERE"

John146
Jul 20th 2009, 04:29 PM
Incorrect.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Those that commit sin are of the devil and are NOT God's children.

If you read a few verses earlier from verse 8 in chapter 1 you will see:

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Very obvious here that those being addressed were among Christians but were NOT Christians themselves, for they were NOT in fellowship with Christians nor with Christ. Wrong. John wouldn't invite unbelievers to fellowship with him. As Paul said, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?".

John was speaking about those believers who actually witnessed the events he spoke about (including him) having fellowship with those believers who had not seen those events firsthand.

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

John146
Jul 20th 2009, 04:32 PM
How many sins did Adam commit before he was a sinner? Judas by transgression (sin) fell.


Ezk. 33:12-13 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression...neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth...if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.”


Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Those who sin are spiritually dead

Rom. 6:13 “But yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead.”
Rom. 7:5 “For when we were [past tense] in the flesh, the motions of sins...did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.”
Rom. 8:6 “For to be carnally minded is death.”
Eph. 2:1 “And you hath he quickened [made alive], who were[past tense] dead in trespasses and sins.”
Col. 2:13 “And you, being dead in your sins...”
1 Tim. 5:6 “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.”


Notice the words "WERE"
Does this mean your answer to my question is "yes"? Anyone who sins even once after they're saved will be cast out, which would mean they are condemned to hell? Or do you believe that if someone does sin after being saved, they are lost again and they have to confess that sin in order to be saved again?

BigV
Jul 20th 2009, 04:35 PM
Where is the difference when it comes to sin?

Mt 23:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


If we in Christ do the same sins as those that are not in Christ are we not worse than those that do not know.

1 Pet 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The Gospel is the same for all, sin is the same for all.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits, I think that you need to understand something about the Old Self and New Self.

Every believer in Christ (by that I mean, absolutely everyone who has ever became convinced that Jesus Christ died for ALL their sins) has been born AGAIN, receiving new life, which the Bible calls eternal life. If one looks up the definition of eternal, they'll find 'unending' being one of the synonyms. Eternal life can't be lost, rejected, cancelled, etc...

The Bible calls this new man, NEW Self (Eph. 2, Eph. 4, Col. 3). This new self cannot sin and is unable to sin.

However, we remain with our Old Self, also known as the flesh. James says that when we are tempted, we should not think that God tempts us but that each one is being led astray by their OWN sinful desires.

We can't part with our flesh until we die, and once we die, we won't be able to sin. However, until then, our only remedy to stop sinning is to put ON New SELF, which is Christ in us.

Eph. 4:
21if indeed you (AZ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29294AZ))have heard Him and have (BA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29294BA))been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22that, in reference to your former manner of life, you (BB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29295BB))lay aside the (BC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29295BC))old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the (BD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29295BD))lusts of deceit,
23and that you be (BE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29296BE))renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24and (BF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29297BF))put on the (BG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29297BG))new self, which (BH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29297BH))in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

faithfulfriend
Jul 20th 2009, 05:19 PM
Wrong. John wouldn't invite unbelievers to fellowship with him. As Paul said, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?".

John was speaking about those believers who actually witnessed the events he spoke about (including him) having fellowship with those believers who had not seen those events firsthand.

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Yes he would invite unbelievers, if they were to repent and become Christians:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Isn't the whole point of Christianity to invite others to enjoy this so great salvation?

Bible says to go unto all the world and preach the gospel. He's not inviting them to fellowship and remain in their sinful state, he's inviting for them to repent, obtain salvation, and become Christians. The Gnostics didn't believe they had sin to be forgiven of, thus verse 8 declares that they are deceiving themselves because "all have sinned" Romans 3:23.

faithfulfriend
Jul 20th 2009, 05:21 PM
Does this mean your answer to my question is "yes"? Anyone who sins even once after they're saved will be cast out, which would mean they are condemned to hell? Or do you believe that if someone does sin after being saved, they are lost again and they have to confess that sin in order to be saved again?

One sin results in spiritual death (separation from God).

Yes an individual who commits sin (even one single sin) results in their soul being condemned to Hell.

Yes if someone sins after being saved, they are once again lost and are separated from God because they are spiritually dead. The Bible proves that those who sin are spiritually dead.

VerticalReality
Jul 20th 2009, 05:23 PM
How do you reverse circumcision?

before I answer the question what does it mean to be circumcised?

Firstfruits

It means to be changed . . . to be given a new heart/new spirit . . .

VerticalReality
Jul 20th 2009, 05:25 PM
NT circumcision is spiritual circumcision of the heart. You can fall away from being a Christian (unless of course you believe OSAS :lol:)

In the word of God the physical was used to foreshadow the spiritual . . .

Being that you cannot reverse physical circumcision . . .

VerticalReality
Jul 20th 2009, 05:29 PM
Also, I wonder if anyone could point me to the Scriptures that talk about when a person is no longer born again . . .

Additionally, I would like if someone could point me to the Scriptures that state where someone can be born again more than once . . .

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 05:33 PM
Also, I wonder if anyone could point me to the Scriptures that talk about when a person is no longer born again . . .

Additionally, I would like if someone could point me to the Scriptures that state where someone can be born again more than once . . .

Hebrews 6 talks of a person who is no longer saved.
No passages speak of a person who is saved, unsaved, saved, unsaved....

VerticalReality
Jul 20th 2009, 05:42 PM
Hebrews 6 talks of a person who is no longer saved.
No passages speak of a person who is saved, unsaved, saved, unsaved....

That is, of course, if tasting the heavenly gift means to be "saved" or circumcised . . .

notuptome
Jul 20th 2009, 05:48 PM
One sin results in spiritual death (separation from God).
The position of all men apart from Christ. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

Yes an individual who commits sin (even one single sin) results in their soul being condemned to Hell.
Unregenerate men without question. For the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23


Yes if someone sins after being saved, they are once again lost and are separated from God because they are spiritually dead. The Bible proves that those who sin are spiritually dead.
Can they then become resaved? Really bad spot to be in. But most who hold this view do not really believe that they can sin. Sinless perfection a view which God calls that of a liar. Hebrews deals with this impossible situation. Heb 6:6

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do. in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

An important point to note is that Christ lived a sinless life in the flesh and it is His sinlessness that is imputed to me by the grace of God so that I cannot fall. It is the grace of God that upholds me. My account before almighty God has been fully adjudicated and my account satisfied for all eternity by Jesus Christ. Amen and amen.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

faithfulfriend
Jul 20th 2009, 06:54 PM
Also, I wonder if anyone could point me to the Scriptures that talk about when a person is no longer born again . . .

Those that commit sin lose their salvation:

Ezk. 33:12-13 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression...neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth...if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.”


Gal. 2:17-18 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.”


2 Pet. 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning...The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”



Additionally, I would like if someone could point me to the Scriptures that state where someone can be born again more than once . . .Ezekiel 33:18 is prophecy of the gospel dispensation and says “When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.” This is spiritual death, which is separation from God.

Likewise, in the New Testament, in James 5:19-20, “Brethren if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him, let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death...” James teaches that if a brother sins he becomes a sinner and needs converted to save his soul from death. There is hope for a backslider (I John 2:1) if he repents. However, while he is backslid, his soul is separated from God and if he dies in this condition he will be eternally separated from God.

It only takes one sin to backslide and be separated from God. It was just one act of disobedience that separated Adam and Eve from God. “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all,” (James 2:10).

Revelation 21:8 tells us, “…all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” This includes all fibbers and all tellers of so called “white” lies. “…Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out my book,” (Ex. 32:33). “He that overcometh...I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...” (Rev. 3:5). “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire,” (Rev. 20:15).

Alaska
Jul 20th 2009, 07:15 PM
Also, I wonder if anyone could point me to the Scriptures that talk about when a person is no longer born again . . .



The question, are you walking in the new birth or in the flesh, is a valid question. The fact that a person has been born again, past tense, (if in fact they really have) can never be answered as to say the person is no longer born again because as a matter of history, their being born again is a fact and history cannot be reversed.
But we know what you mean.
Your question would have been better to say, point me to the scripture indicating a person previously having been born of the Spirit who afterwards finds himself without the Spirit and lost again.

Well, there's no problem there. But if someone is predisposed to suppose, contrary to scripture, that a person cannot find themselves lost again, even if one came back from the dead to assure them of the truth of it, they will still not believe. And any one so predisposed, it is a waste of time trying to share the scriptures concerning it.

notuptome
Jul 20th 2009, 07:23 PM
Those that commit sin lose their salvation:

Ezk. 33:12-13 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression...neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth...if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.”

We are not under the law but under grace in Christ.




Gal. 2:17-18 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.”

Paul is talking about reestablishing his own righteousness according to the law. The things which were destroyed were his self righteous works. They are of no more value to him after the righteousness of Christ than they were before he knew Christ


2 Pet. 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning...The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

In context Peter is talking about false teachers not Christians. After the error of Balaam vs 15


Ezekiel 33:18 is prophecy of the gospel dispensation and says “When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.” This is spiritual death, which is separation from God.

This is what the law produces not what grace produces.

Likewise, in the New Testament, in James 5:19-20, “Brethren if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him, let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death...” James teaches that if a brother sins he becomes a sinner and needs converted to save his soul from death. There is hope for a backslider (I John 2:1) if he repents. However, while he is backslid, his soul is separated from God and if he dies in this condition he will be eternally separated from God.
This idea conflicts directly with Heb 6:6 The only way this passage makes sense is that James is talking to unsaved Jewish brethren and not to Christians.



It only takes one sin to backslide and be separated from God. It was just one act of disobedience that separated Adam and Eve from God. “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all,” (James 2:10).

Believers are not under the law for righteousness sake.

Revelation 21:8 tells us, “…all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” This includes all fibbers and all tellers of so called “white” lies. “…Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out my book,” (Ex. 32:33). “He that overcometh...I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...” (Rev. 3:5). “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire,” (Rev. 20:15).
Only those written in the Lambs book of Life will enter into eternal life. No one is ever blotted from that book and only the Lamb can open it.

Do me a favor. No do yourself a favor. Study the word of God with a heart that believes that God is good. Do not convince yourself that God hates you and is only looking for a way to beat your socks off.

There is a true meaness of spirit in the teaching that one can lose the greatest gift ever given to man from the greatest lover of man's soul. Just plain nasty thinking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 07:24 PM
If none can be blotted out of the book of life, then why did Moses intercede on behalf of the Israelites and ask God to blot him out...wasn't much of an offer, was it, if it was impossible.

notuptome
Jul 20th 2009, 07:39 PM
If none can be blotted out of the book of life, then why did Moses intercede on behalf of the Israelites and ask God to blot him out...wasn't much of an offer, was it, if it was impossible.
Much the same way Paul felt in Romans 9:1-3 with no more prospect for success.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Alaska
Jul 20th 2009, 07:45 PM
There is a true meaness of spirit in the teaching that one can lose the greatest gift ever given to man from the greatest lover of man's soul. Just plain nasty thinking.



Many would disagree saying that, the nastiness of the disagreement is in the claim that the NT authors assuring us of the possibility of losing what has been given are liars, and it is those like you who we should look to for truth and not them.
Do you really want us to favour your words over theirs?

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 07:53 PM
It means to be changed . . . to be given a new heart/new spirit . . .

Thanks VerticalReality,

Is the new heart/spirit sinful?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 07:56 PM
Firstfruits, I think that you need to understand something about the Old Self and New Self.

Every believer in Christ (by that I mean, absolutely everyone who has ever became convinced that Jesus Christ died for ALL their sins) has been born AGAIN, receiving new life, which the Bible calls eternal life. If one looks up the definition of eternal, they'll find 'unending' being one of the synonyms. Eternal life can't be lost, rejected, cancelled, etc...

The Bible calls this new man, NEW Self (Eph. 2, Eph. 4, Col. 3). This new self cannot sin and is unable to sin.

However, we remain with our Old Self, also known as the flesh. James says that when we are tempted, we should not think that God tempts us but that each one is being led astray by their OWN sinful desires.

We can't part with our flesh until we die, and once we die, we won't be able to sin. However, until then, our only remedy to stop sinning is to put ON New SELF, which is Christ in us.

Eph. 4:
21if indeed you (AZ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29294AZ))have heard Him and have (BA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29294BA))been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22that, in reference to your former manner of life, you (BB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29295BB))lay aside the (BC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29295BC))old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the (BD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29295BD))lusts of deceit,
23and that you be (BE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29296BE))renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24and (BF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29297BF))put on the (BG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29297BG))new self, which (BH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=49#cen-NASB-29297BH))in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

From what you are saying we are serving two masters, sin and God.

Firstfuits

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 08:00 PM
That's pretty much exactly what Paul said...

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 08:01 PM
In the word of God the physical was used to foreshadow the spiritual . . .

Being that you cannot reverse physical circumcision . . .

Physical circumcision means nothing in the sight of God. Why then does it have to be reversed?

Firstfruits

faithfulfriend
Jul 20th 2009, 08:05 PM
Only those written in the Lambs book of Life will enter into eternal life. No one is ever blotted from that book and only the Lamb can open it.

Do me a favor. No do yourself a favor. Study the word of God with a heart that believes that God is good. Do not convince yourself that God hates you and is only looking for a way to beat your socks off.

There is a true meaness of spirit in the teaching that one can lose the greatest gift ever given to man from the greatest lover of man's soul. Just plain nasty thinking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Grace is the power to live free from sin, not an excuse to sin.

I know God doesn't hate me, he loves me, loved me so much that he delivered me from all sin when I used to be a miserable sinner.

Nobody is ever blotted from the book of life?

Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Sorry, the Word of God trumps your statement.

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 08:08 PM
That's pretty much exactly what Paul said...

Jesus said that if we serve two masters we will please one and not the other, if we sin we are not pleasing God, so who are we pleasing?

Firstfruits

Alaska
Jul 20th 2009, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by RabbiKnife http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2142390#post2142390)
That's pretty much exactly what Paul said...



Jesus said that if we serve two masters we will please one and not the other, if we sin are we are not pleasing God, so who are we pleasing?

Firstfruits

Rabbi must be supposing that Rom. 7 was a confession of defeat by Paul instead of a testimony of what it is like not being born again and walking in the Spirit.

Desperaux
Jul 20th 2009, 08:28 PM
Jesus has an eraser.

Revelation 3:4-5
“Yet there are some in the church in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes with evil. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.

It is obvious that Christ is promising that he will not erase the names of those who walk in righteousness. Inferred is that He will erase those in the Church who do not. He accuses those in the Church who are lukewarm:

Revelation 3:15-16
“I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!

John146
Jul 20th 2009, 08:29 PM
Yes he would invite unbelievers, if they were to repent and become Christians:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Isn't the whole point of Christianity to invite others to enjoy this so great salvation?

Bible says to go unto all the world and preach the gospel. He's not inviting them to fellowship and remain in their sinful state, he's inviting for them to repent, obtain salvation, and become Christians. The Gnostics didn't believe they had sin to be forgiven of, thus verse 8 declares that they are deceiving themselves because "all have sinned" Romans 3:23.Why would John say "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." if he wasn't including himself? This sinless perfection after salvation doctrine is ridiculous and only can result in people thinking they are lost and have no hope if they sin even once after being saved.

Desperaux
Jul 20th 2009, 08:32 PM
Why would John say "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." if he wasn't including himself? This sinless perfection after salvation doctrine is ridiculous and only can result in people thinking they are lost and have no hope if they sin even once after being saved.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Amen--1.png

Alaska
Jul 20th 2009, 08:34 PM
Physical circumcision means nothing in the sight of God. Why then does it have to be reversed?

Firstfruits

Vertical is saying that as circumcision in the flesh is irreversible, so spiritual circumcision is also irreversible.
So, to equate that to the spiritual, getting changed by the power of the Holy Ghost, being genuinely born again, means the person cannot go back to the mire and the vomit to the state they were in before.
Is Vertical sure he wants to go down this road?
Not all aspects of the natural can be applied or paralleled to the spiritual.

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 08:36 PM
Jesus has an eraser.

Revelation 3:4-5
“Yet there are some in the church in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes with evil. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.

It is obvious that Christ is promising that he will not erase the names of those who walk in righteousness. Inferred is that He will erase those in the Church who do not. He accuses those in the Church who are lukewarm:

Revelation 3:15-16
“I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!

Thanks Desperaux,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 08:40 PM
Vertical is saying that as circumcision in the flesh is irreversible, so spiritual circumcision is also irreversible.
So, to equate that to the spiritual, getting changed by the power of the Holy Ghost, being genuinely born again, means the person cannot go back to the mire and the vomit to the state they were in before.
Is Vertical sure he wants to go down this road?
Not all aspects of the natural can be applied or paralleled to the spiritual.

Thanks Alaska,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Alaska
Jul 20th 2009, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by John146 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2142471#post2142471)
Why would John say "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." if he wasn't including himself? This sinless perfection after salvation doctrine is ridiculous and only can result in people thinking they are lost and have no hope if they sin even once after being saved.


No one has said the backslider, the Christian who sins, cannot get right with God again. The above scripture assures us he can.
Confidence in the ability of God's power because of what Christ has done in the flesh to keep us from sin, which increases our closeness and experience with God, is what should be the focus of Christianity.
Instead, a competing Gospel and Jesus, a counterfeit, says we must accept defeat as far as our battle with sin goes.
Two entirely different Jesuses.

John146
Jul 20th 2009, 08:48 PM
Yes he would invite unbelievers, if they were to repent and become Christians:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Isn't the whole point of Christianity to invite others to enjoy this so great salvation?

Bible says to go unto all the world and preach the gospel. He's not inviting them to fellowship and remain in their sinful state, he's inviting for them to repent, obtain salvation, and become Christians. The Gnostics didn't believe they had sin to be forgiven of, thus verse 8 declares that they are deceiving themselves because "all have sinned" Romans 3:23.How is one saved in the first place? By faith, right? So, why do you think that one maintains their salvation by being sinless rather than by keeping their faith?

John146
Jul 20th 2009, 08:48 PM
No one has said the backslider, the Christian who sins, cannot get right with God again.It appears that there are a couple people saying exactly that. But I'm trying to see if that's what they really believe or not.

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2009, 08:53 PM
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Amen--1.png

It is the acknowledgement to confess our sins and repent and what happens if we do not do as scripture tells us to.

"if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..."

Firstfruits

notuptome
Jul 20th 2009, 09:05 PM
Grace is the power to live free from sin, not an excuse to sin.
Free from the curse of sin not free from the presence of sin.


I know God doesn't hate me, he loves me, loved me so much that he delivered me from all sin when I used to be a miserable sinner.

So now you are without sin? Perfect before the Lord?


Nobody is ever blotted from the book of life?

Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Not the Lambs book of life. Rev 21:27 Two books will be opened the Lambs book contains only those who are saved and are not under condemnation. the other book of life contains all souls and all their deeds and these will be judged unto eternal condemnation. Rev 20:12-15

Sorry, the Word of God trumps your statement.
Make no apology for the word of God. Only rightly divide the word. Christ never blots any from His book. His book is a separate book from the whole book of all the works of man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Alaska
Jul 20th 2009, 09:12 PM
It appears that there are a couple people saying exactly that. But I'm trying to see if that's what they really believe or not.


Faithfulfriend's zeal to encourage acceptance of the reality that Christianity offers a real life freedom from committing sin by the power of the Holy Ghost is being misunderstood or slandered or contradicted by a false doctrine, depending on the motive, which should be manifest shortly.

Jesus' purpose for us is to live victoriously over sin and that is the abundant life and this is very available by the Holy Spirit. Failure to abide therein is simply a backslidden or deceived state: the person not abiding therein is not partaking of the benefit Christ died to procure for them.
A person so experiencing this reality will be extremely grieved if they fall into committing sin and they will take it very very seriously. The verses in 1 John 1 encourage and comfort the backslider that there is yet hope, his salvation is not necessarily forfeited by his sin.

Compare this with the view that we all sin and no one can not sin. Sin, while not desired and should be denounced is still a reality that the Christian cannot escape. The verses in 1 John 1 are then viewed as an acquiescence to sin instead of a provision to restore from a backslidden state.

Two entirely different Gospels

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 02:29 AM
Vertical is saying that as circumcision in the flesh is irreversible, so spiritual circumcision is also irreversible.
So, to equate that to the spiritual, getting changed by the power of the Holy Ghost, being genuinely born again, means the person cannot go back to the mire and the vomit to the state they were in before.
Is Vertical sure he wants to go down this road?
Not all aspects of the natural can be applied or paralleled to the spiritual.

I think you need to slow down a little and read again what I have said in my post. I stated this was a question asked of me by a friend of mine. I did not say I believe a person could not fall away. I presented the question to see how others would answer it. I was not saying this is what I believe.

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 02:33 AM
Faithfulfriend's zeal to encourage acceptance of the reality that Christianity offers a real life freedom from committing sin by the power of the Holy Ghost is being misunderstood or slandered or contradicted by a false doctrine, depending on the motive, which should be manifest shortly.

I don't think anything is being misunderstood. The argument being put forth that folks like John146 are refuting is that a born again Christian will not sin . . . ever, and if they do sin they have lost their relationship with the Lord just as a lost and unregenerated sinner needing to be born again again.

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 02:56 AM
It appears that there are a couple people saying exactly that. But I'm trying to see if that's what they really believe or not.

Nobody ever said that.

A fallen Christian [sinner] can come to Christ again (with godly sorrow) and repent of their sins, the Bible says he is faithful and just to forgive....

Nobody ever said that once one is lost, they are lost forever with no hope of returning to God. That's what the Prodigal son story is all about, one coming back to God.

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 03:04 AM
Free from the curse of sin not free from the presence of sin.

My Bible says:

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

If sin reigns in your mortal [living] body, then that means you are committing it, for Christ himself said he that commits sin is the SERVANT of sin.



So now you are without sin? Perfect before the Lord?

I live free from sin, so yes I am without sin thank the Lord.

What's your definition of "perfect?" Your definition of being perfect in the Lord and the Bibles definition of Christian perfection might differ...


Not the Lambs book of life. Rev 21:27 Two books will be opened the Lambs book contains only those who are saved and are not under condemnation. the other book of life contains all souls and all their deeds and these will be judged unto eternal condemnation. Rev 20:12-15

Every man will be judged according to their life, and whether there was sin in it or not. Bible says "Depart from me, ye that work [commit] iniquity [sin]"

You can take that up with God on judgment day, but I'd prefer to live a holy life now and not take my chances of the wrath of Almighty God abiding on me (Romans 1:18)


Make no apology for the word of God. Only rightly divide the word. Christ never blots any from His book. His book is a separate book from the whole book of all the works of man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Christ never blots any from His book? Really?

I already gave two passages that refuted that statement.

If there was a way for you to stop sinning from now on, would you want to? Deep down, your answer is no.

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 03:10 AM
I don't think anything is being misunderstood. The argument being put forth that folks like John146 are refuting is that a born again Christian will not sin . . . ever, and if they do sin they have lost their relationship with the Lord just as a lost and unregenerated sinner needing to be born again again.

You say a born again Christian will sin, God says he won't:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that commits sin is a servant to sin, and therefore a slave of the devil. The son of God [Christ] came to deliver mankind from sin, but sadly many have rejected his blood and are happy to continue a lifestyle of sin, deceiving themselves into thinking they'll make Heaven their home anyway.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Whoever is born of God [born again] does not commit sin. Even though many professing religious people claim that Christians sin, and even though the Word of God says very clearly that Christians do not sin, this passage will be ignored and watered down because individuals do not want to give up their sinful lifestyle....perhaps it's too "strict" of a life.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

In this [the issue of sin] the children of God are manifest, and the devils slaves. Those who do not live righteously [free from sin] are not of God at all, regardless of what church they go to and how many times they claim to be saved.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

If you say you have fellowship with Christ, but walk in sin, you are a liar and you do not obey the truth. Regardless of your religious profession and regardless of how many services you attend.

Alaska
Jul 21st 2009, 03:17 AM
Vertical is saying that as circumcision in the flesh is irreversible, so spiritual circumcision is also irreversible. So, to equate that to the spiritual, getting changed by the power of the Holy Ghost, being genuinely born again, means the person cannot go back to the mire and the vomit to the state they were in before.
Is Vertical sure he wants to go down this road?
Not all aspects of the natural can be applied or paralleled to the spiritual.[/quote



I think you need to slow down a little and read again what I have said in my post. I stated this was a question asked of me by a friend of mine. I did not say I believe a person could not fall away. I presented the question to see how others would answer it. I was not saying this is what I believe.



This is the post I was referring to concerning the statement about circumcision:

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithfulfriend http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2141917#post2141917)
NT circumcision is spiritual circumcision of the heart. You can fall away from being a Christian (unless of course you believe OSAS :lol:)

VR: In the word of God the physical was used to foreshadow the spiritual . . .

Being that you cannot reverse physical circumcision . . .


You did not mention here that your reference to circumcision was a question asked of you by a friend.
You must be referring to another post.

notuptome
Jul 21st 2009, 03:22 AM
My Bible says:

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

If sin reigns in your mortal [living] body, then that means you are committing it, for Christ himself said he that commits sin is the SERVANT of sin.

I agree that grace is not a convenient excuse for us to live ungodly lives but even the best of us cannot achieve perfection in our walk.




I live free from sin, so yes I am without sin thank the Lord.

What's your definition of "perfect?" Your definition of being perfect in the Lord and the Bibles definition of Christian perfection might differ...

So you have not sinned since you received Christ and were saved?




Every man will be judged according to their life, and whether there was sin in it or not. Bible says "Depart from me, ye that work [commit] iniquity [sin]"

You can take that up with God on judgment day, but I'd prefer to live a holy life now and not take my chances of the wrath of Almighty God abiding on me (Romans 1:18)

Actually those who are saved have already been adjudicated before Almighty God and Christ has settled the matter for us.




Christ never blots any from His book? Really?

I already gave two passages that refuted that statement.
With the same aplomb that you have dealt with the other scriptures.


If there was a way for you to stop sinning from now on, would you want to? Deep down, your answer is no.

Now you judge me? Seems a bit presumptious to me but then you have told me that you are without sin. Walked on any water lately? Healed any blind? Oops your sanctification is showing. I don't mean to be unkind but your argument is far from compelling and is not supported by what you have demonstrated here.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 03:57 AM
that your reference to circumcision was a question asked of you by a friend.
You must be referring to another post.

Here's my post where the circumcision conversation derived from . . .

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2140353&postcount=119

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 04:01 AM
One sure fire way to know whether someone's doctrine is false or not is if one aspect of it makes salvation even more difficult than under the old covenant.

Abraham was considered righteous even though he sinned. David was considered righteous even though he sinned. The list goes on and on. These folks were considered righteous even though they were not perfect. However, under the new covenant someone is now hell bound if they do not measure up to perfection?

Something seems mighty backwards about that, so I think it should be easy to tell that such teachings are false.

Sirus
Jul 21st 2009, 04:18 AM
Abraham was considered righteous even though he sinned. David was considered righteous even though he sinned. The list goes on and on. These folks were considered righteous even though they were not perfect. However, under the new covenant someone is now hell bound if they do not measure up to perfection?

Something seems mighty backwards about that, so I think it should be easy to tell that such teachings are false.You'd think!
I covered this many pages back. People walk in what they know. No man judges them. There is one Judge, Christ the righteous.

I appreciate wanting everyone to know the freedom we all have in Christ, but there seems to be a serious disconnect from the grace claimed to be understood to make us free.

John146
Jul 21st 2009, 04:42 AM
Nobody ever said that.

A fallen Christian [sinner] can come to Christ again (with godly sorrow) and repent of their sins, the Bible says he is faithful and just to forgive....

Nobody ever said that once one is lost, they are lost forever with no hope of returning to God. That's what the Prodigal son story is all about, one coming back to God.But you do think that if a person is saved and then sins even once after being saved then they are lost and need to repent and get saved again, right? In other words, to you falling away occurs as a result of committing even one sin after salvation, right? Same question for Firstfruits and anyone else who believes they have not sinned since they've been saved.

John146
Jul 21st 2009, 04:52 AM
One sure fire way to know whether someone's doctrine is false or not is if one aspect of it makes salvation even more difficult than under the old covenant.

Abraham was considered righteous even though he sinned. David was considered righteous even though he sinned. The list goes on and on. These folks were considered righteous even though they were not perfect. However, under the new covenant someone is now hell bound if they do not measure up to perfection?

Something seems mighty backwards about that, so I think it should be easy to tell that such teachings are false.Absolutely. The idea being promoted here is that we are saved by faith but we maintain our salvation by being sinless. Not by keeping our faith, but by keeping ourselves from sinning. Now how does that make sense? If a Christian sins even once that means they've lost their faith? I don't believe that. Scripture doesn't teach that.

1 Cor 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Here, we see Christians being scolded by Paul for their behavior and for not being ready for spiritual meat. They are clearly sinning and are immature in their faith. But Paul still calls them brethren and babes in Christ. These were not people that didn't have faith. They just didn't have much spiritual maturity yet and Paul is telling them it's about time they start growing in their faith. I'd like those who think you can't be a Christian and sin to tell me how they interpret the passage above.

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 08:04 AM
You say a born again Christian will sin, God says he won't:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that commits sin is a servant to sin, and therefore a slave of the devil. The son of God [Christ] came to deliver mankind from sin, but sadly many have rejected his blood and are happy to continue a lifestyle of sin, deceiving themselves into thinking they'll make Heaven their home anyway.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Whoever is born of God [born again] does not commit sin. Even though many professing religious people claim that Christians sin, and even though the Word of God says very clearly that Christians do not sin, this passage will be ignored and watered down because individuals do not want to give up their sinful lifestyle....perhaps it's too "strict" of a life.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

In this [the issue of sin] the children of God are manifest, and the devils slaves. Those who do not live righteously [free from sin] are not of God at all, regardless of what church they go to and how many times they claim to be saved.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

If you say you have fellowship with Christ, but walk in sin, you are a liar and you do not obey the truth. Regardless of your religious profession and regardless of how many services you attend.

Thanks Faithfulfriend,

If we claim to be children of God, and we are told that we should not sin, why do we feel that it is wrong to teach such doctrine?

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

"If any man" means as it says, anyone/whosoever, Jesus is the advocate for the whole world, and through his word we are taught that we "sin not"

Jesus is not the advocate just for those that are born again, but as it is written for the whole world.

1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 12:08 PM
I would also ask some here if perfection and sinlessness is what describes a true Christian what is God's chastening for?

Why would God chasten His perfect kids who do not sin? We know the word of God declares that God's chastening is not for the unbeliever/lost sinner. God's chastening is to correct the error/sin of His children.

Or would it be proposed that God punishes and chastens His children just for kicks?

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 12:24 PM
I agree that grace is not a convenient excuse for us to live ungodly lives but even the best of us cannot achieve perfection in our walk.

1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We have to walk as Christ walked.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

As Christ is, so are we in this world. Did Christ sin?




So you have not sinned since you received Christ and were saved? By the grace of God, no I have not.




Actually those who are saved have already been adjudicated before Almighty God and Christ has settled the matter for us.



With the same aplomb that you have dealt with the other scriptures.

Now you judge me? Seems a bit presumptious to me but then you have told me that you are without sin. Walked on any water lately? Healed any blind? Oops your sanctification is showing. I don't mean to be unkind but your argument is far from compelling and is not supported by what you have demonstrated here.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWhat does walking on water have to do with sin? Nothing. Christian perfection isn't human perfection. We are not robots, we are humans.

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 12:25 PM
But you do think that if a person is saved and then sins even once after being saved then they are lost and need to repent and get saved again, right? In other words, to you falling away occurs as a result of committing even one sin after salvation, right? Same question for Firstfruits and anyone else who believes they have not sinned since they've been saved.

Correct, they would need to repent again in order to be saved, once again the Bible says the soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE.

A dead soul results in spiritual death, meaning separation from God. Christ came to give us life, therefore you cannot be alive in Christ and spiritually dead in sin at the same time. You are either alive to Christ or alive to sin, not both.

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 12:49 PM
Correct, they would need to repent again in order to be saved, once again the Bible says the soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE.

A dead soul results in spiritual death, meaning separation from God. Christ came to give us life, therefore you cannot be alive in Christ and spiritually dead in sin at the same time. You are either alive to Christ or alive to sin, not both.

So you believe then that the Lord chastens His sinless children for no reason?

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 12:54 PM
But you do think that if a person is saved and then sins even once after being saved then they are lost and need to repent and get saved again, right? In other words, to you falling away occurs as a result of committing even one sin after salvation, right? Same question for Firstfruits and anyone else who believes they have not sinned since they've been saved.

We are no different to anyone else in the world when we sin, we have one way to be made clean and that is to confess of our sin.

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are not automaticaly cleaned, and it needs to be maintained.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 01:01 PM
We are no different to anyone else in the world when we sin, we have one way to be made clean and that is to confess of our sin.

So again, this takes us back to the question does that one sin now make us lose whatever standing we had with the Lord until we confess our sin and ask His forgiveness yet again?

So again that would mean that we need to be born again again, and we need to receive His Spirit and be sealed by His Spirit yet again . . .

That's quite a circle you have going there . . .

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 01:09 PM
So again, this takes us back to the question does that one sin now make us lose whatever standing we had with the Lord until we confess our sin and ask His forgiveness yet again?

So again that would mean that we need to be born again again, and we need to receive His Spirit and be sealed by His Spirit yet again . . .

That's quite a circle you have going there . . .

Not realy a circle because if we sin, until we confess that sin we are unclean/unholy/unrighteous/unjust.

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 01:15 PM
Not realy a circle because if we sin, until we confess that sin we are unclean/unholy/unrighteous/unjust.

Firstfruits

I see it as a circle.

Confess, receive salvation and sealed by God's Spirit, sin, lose salvation, lose God's Spirit, lost sinner again, confess, receive salvation and sealed again by God's Spirit, sin, lost salvation, lose God's Spirit, lost sinner again . . . and round and round we go . . .

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 01:29 PM
So again, the chastening issue is going unanswered. What is the purpose of God's chastening? God does not chasten anyone other than His children. Why are His children chastened? I do not believe God is chastening His children just because He gets some giggles out of it. He is chastening His children because they need it to correct them.

However listening to the doctrine of some here God's chastening would never be needed because one sin disqualifies a person from being God's child, and we know from Scripture that God does not chasten those who are not His.

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 01:37 PM
I see it as a circle.

Confess, receive salvation and sealed by God's Spirit, sin, lose salvation, lose God's Spirit, lost sinner again, confess, receive salvation and sealed again by God's Spirit, sin, lost salvation, lose God's Spirit, lost sinner again . . . and round and round we go . . .

One way out of the circle then is as we are taught "sin not"

1 Jn 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Break the circle!!!!!!!!

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 01:39 PM
One way out of the circle then is as we are taught "sin not"

1 Jn 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Break the circle!!!!!!!!

Firstfruits

So again, why the need for God's chastening?

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 01:44 PM
So again, why the need for God's chastening?

The danger of the wrath of God on those that are disobedient to thw will of God.

2 Cor 10:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Eph 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 5:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Sin is disobedience to God will that we do not sin.

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 01:47 PM
The danger of the wrath of God on those that are disobedient to thw will of God.

2 Cor 10:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Eph 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 5:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Sin is disobedience to God will that we do not sin.

Firstfruits



That did not answer my question. I'm not talking about the wrath of God. I'm talking about God's chastening. God only chastens His children. The wrath of God is reserved for those who do not know God. Hebrews 12 tells us that God only chastens those who are His. He only chastens His children. Why does He do that when one sin disqualifies a person from being His child? You are saying God chastens His children because He finds some sort of enjoyment in it?

The doctrine being put forth does not make much sense out of the chastening issue.

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 01:52 PM
I see it as a circle.

Confess, receive salvation and sealed by God's Spirit, sin, lose salvation, lose God's Spirit, lost sinner again, confess, receive salvation and sealed again by God's Spirit, sin, lost salvation, lose God's Spirit, lost sinner again . . . and round and round we go . . .

There is no circle when you cease from committing sin.

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 01:59 PM
I would also ask some here if perfection and sinlessness is what describes a true Christian what is God's chastening for?

Why would God chasten His perfect kids who do not sin? We know the word of God declares that God's chastening is not for the unbeliever/lost sinner. God's chastening is to correct the error/sin of His children.

Or would it be proposed that God punishes and chastens His children just for kicks?

God's children do not sin, thus the chastising isn't for the devils children, but for Gods children.

I John 3 declares who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil. The element that separates the two is sin, thus your question is then what is chastisement for?

Chastisement is for growth in grace, for God to correct us of our faults. For example:

Acts 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.

Moses had to LEARN as time went on. God led him and he became more wise. God teaches his children, he corrects them for their faults. For example perhaps God wants to lead his child away from a certain hobby that is taking up too much time and lead him into more prayers and devotions, God will chastise you and you will know what Almighty God requires of you.

God sometimes allows things to happen in my life in order to help me realize how frail of a human being I really am, and to draw closer to Him and rely on Him even MORE day by day. As time goes on we are to be better saints, growing in wisdom, knowledge, etc.

Chastisement is simply correction of mistakes.

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 02:05 PM
So again, the chastening issue is going unanswered. What is the purpose of God's chastening? God does not chasten anyone other than His children. Why are His children chastened? I do not believe God is chastening His children just because He gets some giggles out of it. He is chastening His children because they need it to correct them.

However listening to the doctrine of some here God's chastening would never be needed because one sin disqualifies a person from being God's child, and we know from Scripture that God does not chasten those who are not His.

If we sin and God chastens us and we continue to sin and not repent of our sin, one day Gods patience will run out.

Ps 103:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=103&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

Ps 145:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=145&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.

Nahum 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=34&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Thank God for his mercy!!!!!! :pray::pray:

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 02:10 PM
Chastisement is for growth in grace, for God to correct us of our faults.

What sort of faults? Those without sin should have no faults. Will there be faults in heaven? Were there faults before Adam and Eve fell? What caused what you call these "faults"?


Moses had to LEARN as time went on.

But those who are God's children are supposed to have the mind of Christ. Why do they need to learn? If they do not commit sin what else is there for them to learn?


God led him and he became more wise.

Why did he need this wisdom?



God teaches his children, he corrects them for their faults.


What sort of faults?


For example perhaps God wants to lead his child away from a certain hobby that is taking up too much time and lead him into more prayers and devotions, God will chastise you and you will know what Almighty God requires of you.

So if someone is putting worldly things in front of their prayer that would be called idolatry . . . and it is a sin. Additionally, God's chastening includes things like sickness and in some cases even death. Why would God use such methods just to teach someone wisdom? Why would wisdom be needed if they are now dead?


God sometimes allows things to happen in my life in order to help me realize how frail of a human being I really am,

What makes you frail?


and to draw closer to Him and rely on Him even MORE day by day. As time goes on we are to be better saints, growing in wisdom, knowledge, etc.

If you are without sin you would not be unreliant upon Him at any point ever.


Chastisement is simply correction of mistakes.

What sort of "mistakes"?

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 02:14 PM
If his brother stopped sinning the circle would be broken.

Mt 18:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mt 18:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Lk 17:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Break the circle!!!!!!!:pray:

Break the circle!!!!!!!:pray::pray:

Break the circle!!!!!!!:pray::pray::pray:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 02:17 PM
If we sin and God chastens us and we continue to sin and not repent of our sin, one day Gods patience will run out.

So now you are saying that one sin does not separate us from God and disqualify us from being His child? You seem to be agreeing that God does chasten us, and you also seem to be acknowledging that God will only chasten His children. So, if God only chastens His children, and the chastening is because of sin then that must mean that one sin does not just disqualify us from being His child or having a relationship with Him.

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 02:20 PM
If his brother stopped sinning the circle would be broken.

Mt 18:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mt 18:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Lk 17:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Break the circle!!!!!!!:pray:

Break the circle!!!!!!!:pray::pray:

Break the circle!!!!!!!:pray::pray::pray:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Now that you mention Peter, did he lose his salvation when he began showing favorites to Jews over Gentiles? I mean Paul even had to rebuke him to his face. We know that such favoritism is sin, so does that mean that Peter was then no longer God's child and needed to be born again again?

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 02:26 PM
So now you are saying that one sin does not separate us from God and disqualify us from being His child? You seem to be agreeing that God does chasten us, and you also seem to be acknowledging that God will only chasten His children. So, if God only chastens His children, and the chastening is because of sin then that must mean that one sin does not just disqualify us from being His child or having a relationship with Him.

No I am not, you are separated until you repent of your sin. it is because of his mecy that he does not kill us when we sin as was done in the OT.

Thank God for his mercy!!!!!!

Do you not believe that you can break the circle?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 02:33 PM
No I am not, you are separated until you repent of your sin. it is because of his mecy that he does not kill us when we sin as was done in the OT.

So that means you lose God's Spirit, you are no longer His child and you will not have a relationship with Him from that point forward until you are born again and once again filled with His Spirit. Therefore, what that also means is that one sin means you are no longer His, and since you are no longer His it means that He will not chasten you, which in turn does not align with the truth of God's word. So the final conclusion has to be that what you are presenting here is not truth.


Do you not believe that you can break the circle?

The doctrine I'm putting forth says that there is no circle because one sin does not disqualify a person from being God's child. There is no need for a person to be born again again and again. They are God's child, and He will correct His children when they need it. Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse His children of ALL their sin . . . past, present and future.

That is why Paul can tell us in Ephesians 1:7 that we have (past tense)redemption, the forgiveness of sins . . .

John146
Jul 21st 2009, 02:37 PM
Thanks Faithfulfriend,

If we claim to be children of God, and we are told that we should not sin, why do we feel that it is wrong to teach such doctrine?

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

"If any man" means as it says, anyone/whosoever, Jesus is the advocate for the whole world, and through his word we are taught that we "sin not"

Jesus is not the advocate just for those that are born again, but as it is written for the whole world.

1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsThe issue isn't that teaching people not to sin is wrong. Of course it's not. That's a good thing. The problem is that you are saying that if a Christian does sin he is then lost. Even if that person still has faith in Christ? I don't see anywhere in scripture that teaches that someone can lose their salvation as a result of one sin. If that was the case then it would mean we are saved by faith in Christ but to maintain salvation would require being sinless rather than keeping our faith in Christ.

John146
Jul 21st 2009, 02:45 PM
Correct, they would need to repent again in order to be saved, once again the Bible says the soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE.

A dead soul results in spiritual death, meaning separation from God. Christ came to give us life, therefore you cannot be alive in Christ and spiritually dead in sin at the same time. You are either alive to Christ or alive to sin, not both.Please tell me your understanding of this passage:

1 Cor 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Here, we see a portrayal of people who Paul says are "in Christ". He calls them "babes in Christ" and chastises them for not being ready for spiritual meat, but he still says they are in Christ. And they clearly have sinned because of their "envying, strife, and divisions". Notice Paul doesn't tell them they need to get saved again. Instead, he tells them they are acting carnally and they need to stop. But there's no mention of them having lost their salvation. No mention of them having lost their faith in Christ. They just needed to mature in their faith and stop causing strife. They were Christians, but immature ones who needed to grow so that they could handle the spiritual meat Paul wanted to feed (teach) them.

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 02:52 PM
What sort of faults? Those without sin should have no faults. Will there be faults in heaven? Were there faults before Adam and Eve fell? What caused what you call these "faults"?

Uhh, those who do not sin still have faults. Faults and human mistakes are NOT sin. Sanctification doesn't eliminate humanity, but rather carnality. It enables us to "bring forth more fruit" (John 15:2). It takes the worldly element out of us, that inward foe that would lead us back into the world and sin.

Then, besides purifying us from depravity and imparting to use divine power, this experience also brings us into possession of "the comforter" who is our divine guide (John 16:13). Sanctification does not make a quiet personality a loud one, it doesn't cause one to necessarily shout and rejoice when things go wrong, but it does steady us through the storms of life. We still have our free will and our not immune from backsliding, but with this experience we can stand where without it, we would have fallen.




But those who are God's children are supposed to have the mind of Christ. Why do they need to learn? If they do not commit sin what else is there for them to learn? Wow....just because an individual doesn't sin doesn't mean they are HUMANLY PERFECT. Sanctification does not grant perfect knowledge, perfect wisdom, etc. Sanctification is perfect love towards God and a willing heart to continually bring forth more fruit in our lives so that we may live pleasing to God.

I still have a lot to learn, but I don't commit sin. I pray and ask God for wisdom beyond my years when it comes to my circumstances in life. Who I should marry, how to treat my parents, how to be a better example, to study the bible even more, etc.




Why did he need this wisdom?Everyone needs wisdom, and we are to ask God for it:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.



What sort of faults?For example, a mistake in judgment:

Acts 23:2-5 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Mistakes in judgment or human shortcomings are not sin. The bible defines what sin is, not peoples opinion.


So if someone is putting worldly things in front of their prayer that would be called idolatry . . . and it is a sin. Additionally, God's chastening includes things like sickness and in some cases even death. Why would God use such methods just to teach someone wisdom? Why would wisdom be needed if they are now dead? Spending time to play basketball is not sin, but if that hobby takes first place above God, then yes you are correct. God allows us as human beings to have hobbies, interests, passions, etc, as long as they are kept IN THEIR PLACE. Bible says "have no other gods BEFORE me". God must be #1.

I guess perhaps you don't need wisdom, but I know I sure do.




What makes you frail?I'm not perfect in knowledge, understanding, and I'm not perfect as a human being.

There's a big difference between Christian perfection and human perfection. Human perfection is impossible, and you are trying to make the false accusation that sanctification results in human perfection.




If you are without sin you would not be unreliant upon Him at any point ever.



What sort of "mistakes"?Actually I rely on Him MORE every day. Old song says "I need thee EVERY HOUR, Oh Gracious Lord." I need his Word to strengthen me everyday, to keep me focused on the ultimate goal which is Heaven. I must read and study the Word of God to grow in knowledge and understanding, and in order to walk in the light as Christ reveals the light to me.

I must rely on him heavily in order to stay close to God. If I don't stay close to God, my mind won't be Christlike, my actions won't be Christlike, and I could fall into sin.

One must be tempted before they can sin, James 1 lays that out very clearly.

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 02:56 PM
The issue isn't that teaching people not to sin is wrong. Of course it's not. That's a good thing. The problem is that you are saying that if a Christian does sin he is then lost. Even if that person still has faith in Christ? I don't see anywhere in scripture that teaches that someone can lose their salvation as a result of one sin. If that was the case then it would mean we are saved by faith in Christ but to maintain salvation would require being sinless rather than keeping our faith in Christ.

If a christian sins and does not repent of sin then they are lost. If we believe that Jesus will come looking for them then it must mean that they are not where they should be, they are therefore lost until Jesus finds them.

What happens if they do not repent and are not found? To be found means that they have returned to the fold.

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 03:19 PM
Uhh, those who do not sin still have faults.

The truth of the word of God proclaims that if this world did not have sin there would be no faults. What sort of faults did Adam and Even have prior to the fall? What sort of faults did Jesus have? You have already stated that the word declares that as He is so are we in this world. So why do you say we have faults?


Faults and human mistakes are NOT sin.

Did Adam and Even have faults before the fall? Did Jesus have faults? Neither of them had sin, so why would they have faults?


Sanctification doesn't eliminate humanity, but rather carnality.

You admitted previously that God chastising you to devote more time in prayer because of some hobby is idolatry. Isn't idolatry carnality? Why would God need to chasten His children about something like that when according to your doctrine here they shouldn't be capable of sinning?


It enables us to "bring forth more fruit" (John 15:2). It takes the worldly element out of us, that inward foe that would lead us back into the world and sin.

That "worldly element" is the flesh . . .

Are you saying you are without flesh?


We still have our free will and our not immune from backsliding, but with this experience we can stand where without it, we would have fallen.

But you have been saying that this "second work of grace" makes you incapable of backsliding . . .

This is getting rather confusing.


Wow....just because an individual doesn't sin doesn't mean they are HUMANLY PERFECT. Sanctification does not grant perfect knowledge, perfect wisdom, etc. Sanctification is perfect love towards God and a willing heart to continually bring forth more fruit in our lives so that we may live pleasing to God.

Everything is centered on love. If you have perfect love you should also have perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge. You cannot have any of the latter two without perfect love, and if you do indeed have perfect love then you wouldn't be lacking in knowledge or wisdom.


I still have a lot to learn, but I don't commit sin. I pray and ask God for wisdom beyond my years when it comes to my circumstances in life. Who I should marry, how to treat my parents, how to be a better example, to study the bible even more, etc.

Why do you need to know how to treat your parents if it is impossible for you to treat them inappropriately? Without sin you should always be the best example. You should never have an off day. You should never snap at anyone or be in a bad mood. You should be perfect and gentle at all times never causing anyone else to stumble.


Everyone needs wisdom, and we are to ask God for it:

But you acknowledge that the word says we have the mind of Christ? How could we have the mind of Christ and yet still need wisdom?



For example, a mistake in judgment:

Acts 23:2-5 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Mistakes in judgment or human shortcomings are not sin. The bible defines what sin is, not peoples opinion.


Oh, I beg to differ. Judging people wrongly is MOST DEFINITELY a sin. Why do you think we will be judged by the measure which we judge? If we judge falsely there are going to be consequences for that. If we are being judged and there is negative consequences to that it is because we have sinned.


Spending time to play basketball is not sin, but if that hobby takes first place above God, then yes you are correct. God allows us as human beings to have hobbies, interests, passions, etc, as long as they are kept IN THEIR PLACE. Bible says "have no other gods BEFORE me". God must be #1.

But according to your doctrine here your hobbies will never not be "in their place" because you are incapable of idolatry.


I guess perhaps you don't need wisdom, but I know I sure do.

Oh, I know I need wisdom. However, I also understand why I need wisdom, and it is because that work He has begun in me has not been completed yet. I'm not above stumbling.

We should be careful when we think we stand . . .


I'm not perfect in knowledge, understanding, and I'm not perfect as a human being.

Without the capability of sinning you should be perfect. Sin is what causes death. Sin is what causes sickness. In God's kingdom none of those things exist.


There's a big difference between Christian perfection and human perfection. Human perfection is impossible, and you are trying to make the false accusation that sanctification results in human perfection.

Then lay out for us here where the Scriptures make some sort of distinction between "Christian perfection" compared to "human perfection".


I must rely on him heavily in order to stay close to God. If I don't stay close to God, my mind won't be Christlike, my actions won't be Christlike, and I could fall into sin.

But you said you cannot fall into sin because you have received this "second work of grace".

VerticalReality
Jul 21st 2009, 03:24 PM
If a christian sins and does not repent of sin then they are lost.

What if a Christian does not know they have sinned? Additionally, where do you find this timeframe you are putting forth in Scripture? At what point after a sin is salvation lost? Does a Christian have to immediately repent right after sinning? What if they do not discover that they sinned until five days later? What if they never realize their sin? If they die will they be forgiven? Is it necessary for us to confess and repent of every single sin we have ever committed? How do you remember such a long list?

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2009, 03:32 PM
Rom 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. Do not sin.

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Do not sin.

Eph 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Do not sin.

1 Pet 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. Do not sin.

2 Pet 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Do not sin.

2 Pet 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. Do not sin.

1 Jn 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Do not sin.

Firstfruits

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 04:07 PM
What if a Christian does not know they have sinned? Additionally, where do you find this timeframe you are putting forth in Scripture? At what point after a sin is salvation lost? Does a Christian have to immediately repent right after sinning? What if they do not discover that they sinned until five days later? What if they never realize their sin? If they die will they be forgiven? Is it necessary for us to confess and repent of every single sin we have ever committed? How do you remember such a long list?

No such thing as a Christian sinning and not knowing it. One must be tempted before they can commit sin (James 1)

As soon as sin is committed, Salvation is forfeited instantly.

There is a difference between sin in the absolute sense and sin in the imputed sense. God does not punish us for things done unknowingly or unintentional. Sin (imputed sin) is wilful transgression against God's laws. Our motive will determine whether the act is sin or not. A good deed with an evil motive would be imputed to us as sin, likewise a wrong act if done with a good motive would not be imputed to us as sin.

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Who says you have to remember a list? Where do you come up with this stuff? You just ask God to forgive you of all your sins, whether you remember all the ones you committed or not. It's impossible under the NT to commit a sin and not know it. I know you'll most likely point to texts in Leviticus which I'll explain if necessary, under the New Covenant, sin is imputed according to knowledge and understanding. Sin is imputed on an relative basis not an absolute basis.

RabbiKnife
Jul 21st 2009, 04:09 PM
Poppycock. Sin is sin, whether it is a sin of omission or a sin of commission. A wrong act done with a good motive is not a sin?

Now I understand why I can't follow this thread. You have a very strange definition of "sin."

notuptome
Jul 21st 2009, 04:10 PM
1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We have to walk as Christ walked.
Can you fast for forty days as Christ did? Can you see into the heart of a man and know his heart? Can you drink of the cup given to Him to drink? Can you pray with such fervor as to sweat blood? All this is but a part of the walk that Christ walked.


1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

As Christ is, so are we in this world. Did Christ sin?
You can walk the path that Christ trod? Can you love those who hate you? I mean love without reservation those who openly revile you not pity but love? Are you willing to die for those who despise you? And sin not. Can you really be in this world as Christ was in this world? I find that claim quite extraordinary to say the least.



By the grace of God, no I have not.
I appreciate your zeal but by this claim you are undone. You make yourself equal with Christ and negate the necessity for His earthly ministry. You cannot bear the cross that was His alone to bear. It is enough that you should bear your cross.



What does walking on water have to do with sin? Nothing. Christian perfection isn't human perfection. We are not robots, we are humans.
Did Jesus acheive human perfection or Christian perfection? Was He a robot or a human? My concern here is that we progress to a deeper knowledge of Jesus. Of His suffering, of His sacrifice, of His holiness, of His purity, of the very virtues that made Him who He is. Let us consider all that He did on our behalf as He dwelt on the earth. He alone was able to live without sin. No other man even the greatest prophets sent from God could live without sin. He was beaten, scourged, humiliated, and crucified in our place. He did no violence yet He was crucified. He laid nothing to their charge, yea He said Father forgive them as they nailed Him to the cross.

Naming the name of Christ has so little to do with me and you and so much to do with Him. Scripture saith what is man that thou are mindful of him? Man is but dust upon the earth. The heaven sent Son of God, the Lamb of God alone is worthy of praise, glory and worship.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Vhayes
Jul 21st 2009, 04:11 PM
Poppycock. Sin is sin, whether it is a sin of omission or a sin of commission. A wrong act done with a good motive is not a sin?

Now I understand why I can't follow this thread. You have a very strange definition of "sin."
Yep -

"Worry' isn't a sin, either. Nor anger.

John146
Jul 21st 2009, 04:14 PM
If a christian sins and does not repent of sin then they are lost. If we believe that Jesus will come looking for them then it must mean that they are not where they should be, they are therefore lost until Jesus finds them.

What happens if they do not repent and are not found? To be found means that they have returned to the fold.

FirstfruitsSo you're saying if they don't ever repent then they become lost, right? Because that would indicate a return to a sinful lifestyle without remorse for their sins. Is that what you're referring to?

Or are you saying you think that they become lost immediately upon sinning? If not, how long are they given to repent before they become lost?

notuptome
Jul 21st 2009, 04:17 PM
Poppycock. Sin is sin, whether it is a sin of omission or a sin of commission. A wrong act done with a good motive is not a sin?

Now I understand why I can't follow this thread. You have a very strange definition of "sin."
Babes gumming strong meat I can understand but not knowing what sin is seems like milk not meat. Reminds me of a president that redefined what is is. That didn't make any sense either but a least he didn't make it Gods fault.

For him to know right and not to do it to him it is sin. Jas 4:17
Jas 1:22 Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

John146
Jul 21st 2009, 04:21 PM
As soon as sin is committed, Salvation is forfeited instantly. Please show me scripture that specifically says that.

faithfulfriend
Jul 21st 2009, 04:32 PM
The truth of the word of God proclaims that if this world did not have sin there would be no faults. What sort of faults did Adam and Even have prior to the fall? What sort of faults did Jesus have? You have already stated that the word declares that as He is so are we in this world. So why do you say we have faults?

We're humans, not robots. Human perfection = impossible to achieve.




Did Adam and Even have faults before the fall? Did Jesus have faults? Neither of them had sin, so why would they have faults? What do you define as faults?




You admitted previously that God chastising you to devote more time in prayer because of some hobby is idolatry. Isn't idolatry carnality? Why would God need to chasten His children about something like that when according to your doctrine here they shouldn't be capable of sinning?Uhh no, you're twisting my statements and making false accusations. I never said I was INCAPABLE of sinning. Every human being is capable of sinning, but every human being has a choice when temptation comes as to either give into temptation or resist temptation. I'm tempted just like anybody else on this earth. I never said I was incapable of sinning, I just choose not to sin by the grace of God.




That "worldly element" is the flesh . . .

Are you saying you are without flesh? I don't walk after the flesh, no. I have flesh yes in that sense because I'm a soul with a human body.




But you have been saying that this "second work of grace" makes you incapable of backsliding . . .

This is getting rather confusing. No I never said that, you just think I did. You're confusing yourself. Sanctification gives power to resist all temptation, but does not take away an individuals ability to commit sin if they so choose.




Everything is centered on love. If you have perfect love you should also have perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge. You cannot have any of the latter two without perfect love, and if you do indeed have perfect love then you wouldn't be lacking in knowledge or wisdom. Perfect love does not impart perfect knowledge and wisdom. Loving God with all my heart doesn't make me know every single Bible scripture off of the top of my head. Where do you come up with these ideas?

Go buy the book "Perfect Love by J.A. Wood" and it would clear up any confusion, regardless of whether you agree or not, it would at least give you an understanding.




Why do you need to know how to treat your parents if it is impossible for you to treat them inappropriately? Without sin you should always be the best example. You should never have an off day. You should never snap at anyone or be in a bad mood. You should be perfect and gentle at all times never causing anyone else to stumble. Human perfection is not possible. You call everything a sin, and in reality, that just makes you believe its impossible to stop committing real sins. You justify your real sins by claiming everything is sin.

So is not washing your hands before a meal sin? If so, then Christ sinned....






But you acknowledge that the word says we have the mind of Christ? How could we have the mind of Christ and yet still need wisdom? The mind of Christ is a pure mind, it doesn't mean I've been imparted with being "all knowing". Only God is all knowing, not me. I'm just following his Will for my life.




Oh, I beg to differ. Judging people wrongly is MOST DEFINITELY a sin. Why do you think we will be judged by the measure which we judge? If we judge falsely there are going to be consequences for that. If we are being judged and there is negative consequences to that it is because we have sinned. Judging others is sin? Really? Bible doesn't say that, actually says that the saints shall judge the world.




But according to your doctrine here your hobbies will never not be "in their place" because you are incapable of idolatry. Never said I was incapable of sinning. Again you keep insisting that I've said that, when I haven't. Bad assumptions on your part.




Oh, I know I need wisdom. However, I also understand why I need wisdom, and it is because that work He has begun in me has not been completed yet. I'm not above stumbling. You can be above sinning if you'd really like to be. Jude 24 says he [God] is able to keep you from falling [sinning]. Do you want to stop sinning or not?

In all sincerity, I could send you books in order for you to understand what I'm saying. We seem to be having miscommunication, and perhaps that's my fault for not being clear enough or answering questions good enough. Maybe I'm sinning because I can't type correctly... :lol::lol::lol:


We should be careful when we think we stand . . . yes, take heed to this passage:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If you don't resist temptation, you will fall. From the sounds of your testimony, you continually fall. Do you not believe in the power of the scripture above?




Without the capability of sinning you should be perfect. Sin is what causes death. Sin is what causes sickness. In God's kingdom none of those things exist. What do you define as perfect? Sin causes SPIRITUAL death.




Then lay out for us here where the Scriptures make some sort of distinction between "Christian perfection" compared to "human perfection". Sure. I'll try to get something together tonight and post it by tonight.




But you said you cannot fall into sin because you have received this "second work of grace".I never said I'm infallible [incapable of sinning]. So stop thinking that. I don't know where you got that from.

The bottom line is, he that commits sin is of the devil (I John 3:8). We can sit here and debate scripture, passages, terms, definitions, etc, but the bottom line is, if you don't want to live holy, you won't, and there's nothing I can do to convince you that living holy is God's plan for you.

Desperaux
Jul 21st 2009, 04:35 PM
Not realy a circle because if we sin, until we confess that sin we are unclean/unholy/unrighteous/unjust.

Firstfruits

I don't believe that at all. We, who are deemed righteous and just, will sin until we are received into glory. The thing we are freed from is the compunction to sin. We, in Christ, now have a CHOICE before us whether or not we will sin, whereas before Christ, we had no choice BUT to sin! Bondage!

When we choose to sin, we do not lose our salvation--that would make a mockery of the cross of Christ and His precious shed blood. As sheep who are continually wayward, we are still in His fold! We naturally become remorseful, and in our chastening, run to the Shepherd for our covering! He forgives us and sets us aright.

I believe that those who are in grave danger of losing their heavenly reward are those who choose to delve back into their sinful lifestyles with no regard for Jesus Christ--which is a definitive indication that they hadn't salvation to begin with. Goats!