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elicohen
Jul 14th 2009, 10:31 PM
Since the flesh is opposed to God's will [Galatians 5:19-21] and Jesus desired the opposite of God the Father's will [Luke 22:42], then isn't it fair to say that Jesus' submission to the cross was a rejection of his fleshly desires?

fuzzi
Jul 14th 2009, 10:32 PM
I never thought of it that way, but on the surface it appears that you are correct.

I'll have to do some study and prayer on it to confirm. :)

holyrokker
Jul 14th 2009, 11:16 PM
Jesus NEVER desired the opposite of the Father's will.

Mark 8:31-33 And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he said this plainly. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."

Jesus knew why He came. When Peter tried to stop Him from talking like that (That He would be killed) He rebuked Peter. Jesus' plan, from the beginning, was to give His life.

Matthew 26:38 (in the garden) Jesus told His disciples: "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death;
Then He prayed for an hour. Among His praying He prayed: "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."
(Notice the submission to the will of the Father)

While He was praying, we find this in Luke 22:43-44 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

It appears that Jesus was near the point of death while He was in the Gethsemane. I think His prayer was that He NOT die before getting to the cross.

Notice that His prayer was answered - an angel from heaven came and strengthened Him. The Father and the Son agreed: Jesus would NOT die before the cross.

markedward
Jul 14th 2009, 11:27 PM
Jesus desired the opposite of God the Father's will [Luke 22:42]
Luke 22.42: "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Luke 22.42 says the exact opposite of what you're claiming it says.

MarleVVLL
Jul 14th 2009, 11:35 PM
Jesus NEVER desired the opposite of the Father's will.

What he/she said.

elicohen
Jul 14th 2009, 11:40 PM
It appears that Jesus was near the point of death while He was in the Gethsemane. I think His prayer was that He NOT die before getting to the cross.

Notice that His prayer was answered - an angel from heaven came and strengthened Him. The Father and the Son agreed: Jesus would NOT die before the cross.

But if Jesus' prayer was that he be spared of death prior to the cross, then why would he say 'not my will but yours be done'. Wouldn't his being spared of death prior to the cross be something both he and the father would've wanted?

His prayer was to have been spared of the cross in contrast to God the Father's will. And since he knew there was no salvation from the cross [John 12:27], his request was his verbal way of saying 'I don't want your will fulfilled. I don't want to go to the cross'

notuptome
Jul 14th 2009, 11:56 PM
But if Jesus' prayer was that he be spared of death prior to the cross, then why would he say 'not my will but yours be done'. Wouldn't his being spared of death prior to the cross be something both he and the father would've wanted?

His prayer was to have been spared of the cross in contrast to God the Father's will. And since he knew there was no salvation from the cross [John 12:27], his request was his verbal way of saying 'I don't want your will fulfilled. I don't want to go to the cross'
How could Jesus die? He was without sin. On the cross Jesus commanded His spirit to leave. Death did not overcome Christ. In fact death could not touch Him. On the cross He bowed His head before He commanded His spirit to leave His body.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

blessedmommyuv3
Jul 15th 2009, 12:05 AM
But if Jesus' prayer was that he be spared of death prior to the cross, then why would he say 'not my will but yours be done'. Wouldn't his being spared of death prior to the cross be something both he and the father would've wanted?


Absolutely not. God purposed that Christ would come to earth for this very purpose; to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins which serve to separate us from Him--in His perfect holiness.

Isaiah 53:10
10Yet it was the LORDís will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.


As John 12:27 says:

27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"

I don't believe he was praying to be spared from going to the cross in such that he had fear of the upcoming physical death--I believe it was the separation from God that He would have to undergo while upon Calvary's cross that caused His despair.



And since he knew there was no salvation from the cross [John 12:27], his request was his verbal way of saying 'I don't want your will fulfilled. I don't want to go to the cross'

I really don't know what you are saying here??? No salvation from the cross?
How do you believe salvation comes?

Jen

MarleVVLL
Jul 15th 2009, 12:30 AM
But if Jesus' prayer was that he be spared of death prior to the cross, then why would he say 'not my will but yours be done'. Wouldn't his being spared of death prior to the cross be something both he and the father would've wanted?

His prayer was to have been spared of the cross in contrast to God the Father's will. And since he knew there was no salvation from the cross [John 12:27], his request was his verbal way of saying 'I don't want your will fulfilled. I don't want to go to the cross'

You instantly assume the cup or 'to be spared from' was the Cross.

Can you prove that?

HisLeast
Jul 15th 2009, 12:45 AM
You instantly assume the cup or 'to be spared from' was the Cross.

Can you prove that?

What else would it have been?

Scruffy Kid
Jul 15th 2009, 12:49 AM
Hi elicohen!
Welcome to Bibleforums! :hug:
It's nice to have you here!!! :pp :pp :pp

Since the flesh is opposed to God's will [Galatians 5:19-21] and Jesus desired the opposite of God the Father's will [Luke 22:42], then isn't it fair to say that Jesus' submission to the cross was a rejection of his fleshly desires?
Jesus was fully man, and fully God. We don't of course know exactly how this all worked together in his consciousness. Clearly it meant that there were some things he didn't fully understand in the course of his human life, while at the same time his essential orientation and understanding was fully in accord with the Father's (and, with his eternal will as the Word of God).

But the story of Christ's passion (starting in Gethsemane) and death and resurrection seems to show that part of what Christ did, at this stage, in fully embracing the trials and suffering of our human nature, involved full lack of knowledge about what God's plans were, and natural human shrinking from unbearably bad things. Christ Jesus, looked forward in the garden to the prospect not only of death by torture and desertion by those into whose lives he had poured his love ad life, but also to bearing on the cross the fullness of the brokenness and guilt and shame of the whole world, and the wrongness of what we in our sinfullness are in God's sight. It's no wonder that the awfulness of this made him ask God his Father whether there was some other way. Even in undergoing those qualms, Jesus was taking on our human weakness, to make it his own, and to overcome it in his response. His response was not a kind of mechanical "yep, do it God's way or according to plan", but a real human wrestling with the full horror of human lostness, and a final finding his way through to align his will wholely with the Father's.

Theologically, in the early centuries, it was emphasized that Jesus had a full human nature, as well as a divine nature. Thus he had a human mind, as well as access in some ways to God's own mind. In particular it then came up this question: did Christ, with his human soul and mind, have a human will, distinct from the divine will? The answer given (this was called the monothelite controversy, settled in 680 AD) was: yes, Christ had a human as well as a divine will. That meant that, like us, he had to wrestle to understand God's will, and to make the interior motion of heart "Not my will but thine be done". Because of this -- because "he was tested at every point as we are, yet without sin" -- he is able to help us in our struggles of will also. Christ has assumed, taken up as his own, every aspect of our humanity and struggles, exactly so that he may redeem every aspect of our human life!

At least, that is how I understand it.

In friendship, :hug:
Scruffy Kid

elicohen
Jul 15th 2009, 01:04 AM
You instantly assume the cup or 'to be spared from' was the Cross.

Can you prove that?

Jesus confirmed that his disciples would drink from his very same cup [Matthew 23:20] - physical death. Also see John 12:27 where he refutes the notion of escaping the cross.

Also, Jesus' prayer could not have been answered because he says 'if this cup may not pass away from me lest I drink it, thy will be done.' {Matthew 26:42]

Alaska
Jul 15th 2009, 02:21 AM
Jesus NEVER desired the opposite of the Father's will.



The flesh and the works thereof will always surface with desire opposite to the father's will.

Temptation accompanies physical suffering:
Acts 20:
19 Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:


This Apostle had the Holy Ghost, (Christ in him the hope of glory) and yet he experienced and endured temptation.
What Jesus experienced was a similar temptation as the result of knowing the extreme difficulty he was facing.
The similarity between Paul and Jesus?
Both sons of God, (God manifested in the flesh) [in case you don't know, that is what a Christian is supposed to be, having the Holy Spirit] both possessing flesh, both faced with temptation brought on by facing suffering in the flesh.

1 Pet. 2:
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jesus being flesh like we, did not want to face what was at the door anymore than we would if it arrived at our door tomorrow morning.
Wouldn't we pray similarly, "Oh Jesus, is there any way to avoid this, is there not some way that I can not have to go through this? Yet, if this is your will, let it be done and strengthen me to endure to the end for your names sake."

What we go through as Christians is merely a re-run of What Christ has already gone through:

2 Cor. 1:
15 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

Col. 1:
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Walstib
Jul 15th 2009, 02:31 AM
Hi Roger
How could Jesus die?

Someone cutting his head off came to mind. I know it sounds extreme but he was fully human no?


And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. But passing through their midst, He went His way.
(Luk 4:28-30 NASB)

So Jesus *said to them, "My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune. "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. "Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come." (Joh 7:6-8 NASB)
God ordained a time for Jesus to "take his last breath". I think it takes away from Jesus' humanity to say he could not have died in a "hypothetical world".

Walstib
Jul 15th 2009, 02:35 AM
What else would it have been?

I have always considered that Jesus wanted to stay to help and heal people, be the king many wanted him to be, but knew the other way was a better way. The flesh would want to do everything on it's own rather than defer to the Father.

A struggle he shared with us in His humanity I think.

Sirus
Jul 15th 2009, 07:02 AM
Since the flesh is opposed to God's will [Galatians 5:19-21] and Jesus desired the opposite of God the Father's will [Luke 22:42], then isn't it fair to say that Jesus' submission to the cross was a rejection of his fleshly desires?
yes, Christ had a human as well as a divine will. That meant that, like us, he had to wrestle to understand God's will, and to make the interior motion of heart "Not my will but thine be done". Because of this -- because "he was tested at every point as we are, yet without sin" -- he is able to help us in our struggles of will also. Christ has assumed, taken up as his own, every aspect of our humanity and struggles, exactly so that he may redeem every aspect of our human life!Amen! When He, 100% man, said 'my will' he meant it.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:10 Called of God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.