PDA

View Full Version : Dumb Disciples?



Pilgrimtozion
Jul 18th 2009, 05:00 PM
I have a simple question about John 13. As I was reading it with my wife this morning, I was once again struck by the apparent simplicity and stupidity of the disciples. Jesus clearly says somebody is going to betray Him, after which the disciples start arguing as to who is might be. Peter asks John to ask Jesus, which John does, after which Jesus says it will be the one that dips in the morsel with Him.

At this point, you would think the disciples are watching who it is going to be. But as Judas is the one who dips in the morsel with Him, the disciples then think Jesus is telling Judas to do some financial business of some kind. WHY DIDN'T THEY CATCH ON?!? This has always bothered me, so I thought I'd ask the question here. Were they simply that dense? Weren't they listening? Did they have a moment of divinely induced sleep? What was going on?

Vhayes
Jul 18th 2009, 05:08 PM
You're right - it IS interesting. My opinion is that of all the disciples, Judas was the one who seemed to be the most pious, the one who was most observant of the do's and don't's. Judas seems to have been the one in charge of the money and that would lead me to believe he was considered the most "trust-worthy" by the others.

I think what you have in those verses is the same thing that happens everyday when you hear people say, "I simply can't believe so and so would DO anything like that. They've always been so straight-arrow".

Just a thought.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 18th 2009, 05:17 PM
I have a simple question about John 13. As I was reading it with my wife this morning, I was once again struck by the apparent simplicity and stupidity of the disciples. Jesus clearly says somebody is going to betray Him, after which the disciples start arguing as to who is might be. Peter asks John to ask Jesus, which John does, after which Jesus says it will be the one that dips in the morsel with Him.

At this point, you would think the disciples are watching who it is going to be. But as Judas is the one who dips in the morsel with Him, the disciples then think Jesus is telling Judas to do some financial business of some kind. WHY DIDN'T THEY CATCH ON?!? This has always bothered me, so I thought I'd ask the question here. Were they simply that dense? Weren't they listening? Did they have a moment of divinely induced sleep? What was going on?

I don't think they were dumb or dense... at all...

dumb, dense? those are kind of harsh words.. In my opinion...

They didn't understand what Jesus was going to go thru.. the Cross.. His Betrayal...

They Did not understand that He was about to be betrayed, suffer, die and rise again... from the Dead.. according to the Scriptures..

this even after He kept telling them... but their 'mind's did not comprehend it all ..

UNTIL...

Jesus Himself.. Opened their 'minds' to the Scriptures.. and they Understood...

this after He was Crucified and was Raised from the Dead..

This done according to the Will of God... and in perfect timing... and yes they not understanding or comprehending that Judas was the one who would betray them... even after dipping his sop in the dish with Jesus...

it wasnt because they were 'dumb' or 'dense'...

they didn't understand the Scriptures.. 'Spiritually'.. until He opened their minds.. according to His Will.. and when He did.. then it all made sense to them...

ConqueredbyLove
Jul 18th 2009, 07:10 PM
[quote=theBelovedDisciple;2140035]

This done according to the Will of God... and in perfect timing... and yes they not understanding or comprehending that Judas was the one who would betray them... even after dipping his sop in the dish with Jesus...

it wasnt because they were 'dumb' or 'dense'...quote]


I believe one of the reasons they did not comprehend that Judas was the one who would betray Him was because they were following the example of their Master...Who always thinks the best of us...

Judas and Jesus were, apparently, very close...Psalm 41 gives us some insight into their relationship and our Lord's betrayal by Judas...


~ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me ~
Psalm 41: 9




The disciples, having seen their close relationship, would find it very hard to believe that one of their own would betray Jesus.


Indeed, even when they were coming to take Jesus by force, led by the betrayer, Judas, Jesus still called Him friend! Jesus did not disown him.

~ Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him. ~
Matthew 26: 48-50




What love...Amazing love, how can it be?!!!

Walstib
Jul 19th 2009, 12:26 AM
I think it has something to do with being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. That seemingly synergistic receiving of/decision for faith. Can't fully believe without this in a way.?.


"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. "Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here. (Joh 14:25-31 NASB)


"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father." His disciples *said, "Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God." Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe? "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. (Joh 16:25-32 NASB)

After they had scattered they came together again, then...


So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. (Joh 20:21-22 NASB)

Pilgrimtozion
Jul 20th 2009, 01:39 PM
Yes, but even lack of faith wouldn't keep them from understanding the seemingly simple statement Jesus was making. Jesus often spoke in parables, which the disciples didn't understand most of the time either. That is one thing in my opinion; this is entirely another. The disbelief of the other disciples sounds quite plausible IMHO.

matthew94
Jul 20th 2009, 02:55 PM
Might I offer a simple solution as a possibility to why they didn't make the connection?

1. Jesus made the prediction out loud to all in the room (13:18-21)
2. The disciples are all wondering which one it will be (13:22-23)
3. Simon motions for the beloved disciple to ask Jesus (13:24)
4. The beloved disciple leans back* and asks Jesus (13:25)
* I suggest that the phrase 'leans back' implies he whispered the question
5. Jesus whispers back to the beloved disciple his answer (13:26a)
6. Judas fulfills the whispered prediction (13:26b-27a)
7. THEN Jesus (in a non-whisper) says 'do it quickly' (13:28)
8. But the disciples don't connect this to the predicted betrayal b/c they didn't hear the whispered part, only the beloved disciple did (though he may and probably did tell them later, though it soon became obvious anyways).

We don't read tone in Scripture and so it sometimes makes things a little confusing. But if we pay attention to the phrase 'leaning back' and understand that to insinuate a whisper, the continued confusion of the other disciples still makes sense. They weren't dumb, they simply hadn't heard the prediction yet.

Pilgrimtozion
Jul 20th 2009, 04:50 PM
Might I offer a simple solution as a possibility to why they didn't make the connection?

1. Jesus made the prediction out loud to all in the room (13:18-21)
2. The disciples are all wondering which one it will be (13:22-23)
3. Simon motions for the beloved disciple to ask Jesus (13:24)
4. The beloved disciple leans back* and asks Jesus (13:25)
* I suggest that the phrase 'leans back' implies he whispered the question
5. Jesus whispers back to the beloved disciple his answer (13:26a)
6. Judas fulfills the whispered prediction (13:26b-27a)
7. THEN Jesus (in a non-whisper) says 'do it quickly' (13:28)
8. But the disciples don't connect this to the predicted betrayal b/c they didn't hear the whispered part, only the beloved disciple did (though he may and probably did tell them later, though it soon became obvious anyways).

We don't read tone in Scripture and so it sometimes makes things a little confusing. But if we pay attention to the phrase 'leaning back' and understand that to insinuate a whisper, the continued confusion of the other disciples still makes sense. They weren't dumb, they simply hadn't heard the prediction yet.
Ahhhh...thou makest much sense, my friend. Very observant. I thank thee...

Walstib
Jul 21st 2009, 01:50 AM
I was thinking about that myself, but comparing these two verses I wonder it it could be so.


There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.
(Joh 13:23 NASB)

Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him. (Joh 13:28 NASB)
Possible, I still lean toward it being a purposeful closing of understanding.

If Peter was right there with a sword in the garden and was cutting off ears, what would he have done with a full understanding Judas would betray Jesus?

Alaska
Jul 21st 2009, 02:26 AM
Reading the KJV I understand it exactly as matt has shared. There could have been some commotion and speaking by many at the same time as seen in Matt. 26 below. John leaning on Jesus and asking and his response could have given the appearance of possibly not having been words exchanged concerning the betrayer.

John 13:
21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

[Matthew 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? ]

24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

It would have been impossible for them to have not understood the words (verse 28) if they had heard what Jesus had said to John in verse 26.
Peter beckoning John to find out in verse 24 seems incognito.