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Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 05:29 PM
Last night I read Numbers 21 and was reminded of John 3:14-15 There are many OT types that point to Christ and this is one of them.

(Num 21:9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

(Joh 3:14-15) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Now my question is, Why a serpent? Satan is the serpent. Why did Moses have to lift up a serpent and not a lion. After all Jesus is the Lion from the Tribe of Juda. There must be something deeper, something more profound than meets the eye. What are you thoughts on this?

-SEEKING-
Jul 20th 2009, 05:31 PM
This is just me, but I"m thinking in the middle of the desert it was probably a lot easier to find a serpent, then to find a lion. But that's just my humble opinion.

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 05:31 PM
Last night I read Numbers 21 and was reminded of John 3:14-15 There are many OT types that point to Christ and this is one of them.

(Num 21:9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

(Joh 3:14-15) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Now my question is, Why a serpent? Satan is the serpent. Why did Moses have to lift up a serpent and not a lion. After all Jesus is the Lion from the Tribe of Juda. There must be something deeper, something more profound than meets the eye. What are you thoughts on this?

The emphasis in Numbers was on the serpent. The emphasis in John is on the "being lifted up." It was a precusor/foreshadowing of the crucifixion. Has nothing to do with the snake.

markedward
Jul 20th 2009, 05:33 PM
Now my question is, Why a serpent? Satan is the serpent. Why did Moses have to lift up a serpent and not a lion.My guess would be because... the people were bit by serpents and not lions?

I don't think there "must" be anything "deeper". Sometimes things can be as simple as they appear: the people got snake bites, so Moses was told to create a bronze snake staff for the people to look at with the faith that God would reverse their snake bites' pain.

Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 05:39 PM
The emphasis in Numbers was on the serpent. The emphasis in John is on the "being lifted up." It was a precusor/foreshadowing of the crucifixion. Has nothing to do with the snake.

But why lift it up, why not just leave the serpent on the ground? So that the people can see it from afar? :D I'm not so sure about that. Are you sure about the emphasis being different?

The Mighty Sword
Jul 20th 2009, 05:44 PM
This is just me, but I"m thinking in the middle of the desert it was probably a lot easier to find a serpent, then to find a lion. But that's just my humble opinion.

You're so humble.

The Mighty Sword
Jul 20th 2009, 05:45 PM
Last night I read Numbers 21 and was reminded of John 3:14-15 There are many OT types that point to Christ and this is one of them.

(Num 21:9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

(Joh 3:14-15) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Now my question is, Why a serpent? Satan is the serpent. Why did Moses have to lift up a serpent and not a lion. After all Jesus is the Lion from the Tribe of Juda. There must be something deeper, something more profound than meets the eye. What are you thoughts on this?

It wasn't the snake that had significants, but the staff is where the power was.

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 05:45 PM
In Numbers, gazillions were dying from snake bites. Not very practical to put a snake on the ground and have another gazillion trampled to death to try to get to see the "healing snake."

In John, it's just a reference back to something that Nicodemus was very much aware of...Jewish history. The lifting up is just a reference to crucifixion...Nothing "deep" about it.

Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 05:48 PM
In Numbers, gazillions were dying from snake bites. Not very practical to put a snake on the ground and have another gazillion trampled to death to try to get to see the "healing snake."

In John, it's just a reference back to something that Nicodemus was very much aware of...Jewish history. The lifting up is just a reference to crucifixion...Nothing "deep" about it.

So I should just ignore the fact that it was a snake then?? Not important at all?

-SEEKING-
Jul 20th 2009, 05:53 PM
You're so humble.

:lol: I try. Honestly, I try my best.

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 05:55 PM
So I should just ignore the fact that it was a snake then?? Not important at all?

Not that I can see.

-SEEKING-
Jul 20th 2009, 05:55 PM
So I should just ignore the fact that it was a snake then?? Not important at all?

I think yes, to answer you simply. As stated since the snake brought death, it was fitting that the snake symbol brought the healing. Similar to how sin was introduced in a man, Adam, and was brought to it's knees by a man, Jesus.

Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 05:57 PM
Not that I can see.

Okay then. (15 characters)

notuptome
Jul 20th 2009, 05:59 PM
So I should just ignore the fact that it was a snake then?? Not important at all?
Just a few quick thoughts. The brazen serpent was placed where it could be seen from anywhere in the camp. Ready redemption for any who would seek it. The serpent symbolized sin which is what Christ became when He was hanged on the cross. 2 Cor 5:21 He who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Gal 3:13 Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 06:01 PM
Just a few quick thoughts. The brazen serpent was placed where it could be seen from anywhere in the camp. Ready redemption for any who would seek it. The serpent symbolized sin which is what Christ became when He was hanged on the cross. 2 Cor 5:21 He who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Gal 3:13 Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hey Roger, how did you see this and the others and myself missed it?:D I knew there had to be something more than meets the eye. Quite simple now that I think of it.

RogerW
Jul 20th 2009, 06:08 PM
Last night I read Numbers 21 and was reminded of John 3:14-15 There are many OT types that point to Christ and this is one of them.

(Num 21:9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

(Joh 3:14-15) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Now my question is, Why a serpent? Satan is the serpent. Why did Moses have to lift up a serpent and not a lion. After all Jesus is the Lion from the Tribe of Juda. There must be something deeper, something more profound than meets the eye. What are you thoughts on this?

Greetings Henry,

This is an interesting question. Had you considered that it wasn't simply serpents that bit the Isralites, but "fiery serpents".

Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

What does the "fiery serpent" symbolize? Fiery serpent is translated from the Hebrew word seraph - burning, i.e. (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically, a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color):--fiery (serpent), seraph.

In a vision Isaiah sees this same burning, symbolic creature, oddly enough the vision is of the LORD sitting upon His throne and above His throne stands these winged seraphims. These odd sixed winged creatures cry "holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Then one of the seraphims take a burning coal from off the altar, and lays it upon Isaiah's mouth, touching his lips, and his iniquity is taken away and his sin is purged.

Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Could the fiery serpents symbolize Christ? We get the looking unto part, but we find it hard to imagine that the judgment sent against a murmuring people is from Christ as well. Could this pre-figure Christ, coming not only as the Savior Redeemer, but also as Judge?

Many Blessings,
RW

notuptome
Jul 20th 2009, 06:09 PM
Hey Roger, how did you see this and the others and myself missed it?:D
I am blessed to be in a church where the Pastor has ministered the word of God for nearly 50 years. Guess some of the preaching must have sunk into this hard head of mine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

CommanderRobey
Jul 20th 2009, 06:09 PM
The serpents brought death. Something that is contrary to life.

In the New Testament, we see the Lord took that which was contrary to us, nailing it to the cross (Col. 2:14)

The brazen serpent had to be put on the staff for people to gaze upon in order for the sting of natural death to be removed from them. Once we come to the realization that Christ was nailed to the cross, and we trust in Him to be our Savior, takes the sting of both natural and spiritual death from us.

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 06:16 PM
Wow.

Now we are really reading into the passage.

notuptome
Jul 20th 2009, 06:30 PM
Wow.

Now we are really reading into the passage.
Camels nose under the tent flap?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 06:47 PM
Maybe the "fiery serpents" are aliens from outer space...I mean, Ezekiel had the vision of the wheel within the wheel within the wheel...maybe the fiery serpents are really a picture of sin that is a picture of Jesus that is a picture of snakes.


I just have a real problem with taking a very simple passage of Scripture like is found in Numbers, a plain historical narrative, and then "spiritualizing" it all to death. Then we take the one passage in John, where the context is clearly talking about a foreshadowing of the crucifixion, and we do the same thing.

It just bugs me.

Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 07:02 PM
a plain historical narrative, and then "spiritualizing" it all to death.

Why does this analysis of Roger make so much sense then?

RogerW
Jul 20th 2009, 07:06 PM
Maybe the "fiery serpents" are aliens from outer space...I mean, Ezekiel had the vision of the wheel within the wheel within the wheel...maybe the fiery serpents are really a picture of sin that is a picture of Jesus that is a picture of snakes.

I just have a real problem with taking a very simple passage of Scripture like is found in Numbers, a plain historical narrative, and then "spiritualizing" it all to death. Then we take the one passage in John, where the context is clearly talking about a foreshadowing of the crucifixion, and we do the same thing.

It just bugs me.

Let's see then, the text in Numbers tells us "fiery serpents" bit murmuring Isralites, so I guess we should simply accept these as literal snakes blowing fire that bites and kills people??? Yeah, that makes it clear as mud. And I guess the "fiery serpent" the LORD instructed Moses to set on a pole also had flames of literal fire coming from its mouth? More clear mud!

Seraphim [saraph] in Hebrew means "consuming fire" or to "cause to burn." This is consistent with the Cherubim who are associated intimately with fire, as those who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire, and that had hot coals of fire burning beneath them. Both the Cherubim and the Seraphim are creatures that are expressive of the divine righteousness and Glory of God, which requires man only have access to God, through the fire. These truths are depicted in these symbols.

Have you ever read "the LORD thy God is a consuming fire"?

De 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Many Blessings,
RW

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 07:09 PM
Why does this analysis of Roger make so much sense then?

It doesn't make any sense at all to me.

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 07:12 PM
Let's see then, the text in Numbers tells us "fiery serpents" bit murmuring Isralites, so I guess we should simply accept these as literal snakes blowing fire that bites and kills people??? Yeah, that makes it clear as mud. And I guess the "fiery serpent" the LORD instructed Moses to set on a pole also had flames of literal fire coming from its mouth? More clear mud!

Seraphim [saraph] in Hebrew means "consuming fire" or to "cause to burn." This is consistent with the Cherubim who are associated intimately with fire, as those who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire, and that had hot coals of fire burning beneath them. Both the Cherubim and the Seraphim are creatures that are expressive of the divine righteousness and Glory of God, which requires man only have access to God, through the fire. These truths are depicted in these symbols.

Have you ever read "the LORD thy God is a consuming fire"?

De 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Many Blessings,
RW

Still doesn't make any sense. You analysis, then, is that the cherubim are snakes?

Or is it that God is a snake? Or on fire? Or a snake on fire? Or a snake on a stick? Or a fiery flaming snake on a stick?

I don't need no stinkin' cherubim. I have direct access to God through Jesus Christ.

We are symbolizationizing to death.

Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 07:12 PM
It doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Strange, it makes perfect sense to me and I would wager a few hard earned rands that it will make sense to many others who read it.

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 07:13 PM
Strange, it makes perfect sense to me and I would wager a few hard earned rands that it will make sense to many others who read it.

My horoscope in the newspaper may "Make sense", but that doesn't mean it's true.

My concern is with the integrity of the passage, not with might make us feel good about our "interpretation."

Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 07:17 PM
Still doesn't make any sense. You analysis, then, is that the cherubim are snakes?

Or is it that God is a snake? Or on fire? Or a snake on fire? Or a snake on a stick? Or a fiery flaming snake on a stick?

I don't need no stinkin' cherubim. I have direct access to God through Jesus Christ.

We are symbolizationizing to death.

Why are you in such a fighting mood today? What's the point in discussing the Bible if everything is clear cut?

Henry
Jul 20th 2009, 07:18 PM
My horoscope in the newspaper may "Make sense", but that doesn't mean it's true.

My concern is with the integrity of the passage, not with might make us feel good about our "interpretation."

Who said anything about feeling good? Nich ich. How is the integrity of that passage in Numbers compromised?

-SEEKING-
Jul 20th 2009, 07:20 PM
Ok everyone take a deep breath and count to 10.
Now proceed posting.
Please, please be kind to one another.

RabbiKnife
Jul 20th 2009, 07:23 PM
When we try to make scripture say something that it just plainly does not say, we have violated the first rule of biblical interpretation.

Sure, it scratches our religious ears, but that doesn't make it true.

If you choose to hyper-spiritualize every passage of Scripture, then we have no objective reality or basis from which to oppose false cults that create all of their false doctrine using the exact same method of interpretation.

It is very dangerous.

CommanderRobey
Jul 20th 2009, 07:28 PM
While the word 'fiery,' Hebrew word 'saraph,' does mean


saraph saw-rawf'
from 8313; burning, i.e. (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically, a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color):--fiery (serpent), seraph.

the word 'serpents' clearly is in reference to a snake. Even the Hebrew tells us it is a snake


nachash naw-khawsh'
from 5172; a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.

More than likely, these 'serpents' were indeed snakes that were so poisonous that their venom caused a burning sensation in the victims. We have snakes and spiders today that produce the same 'fiery' effects in their victims.

It is interesting, though, that the word for fiery is the same as that for seraph's... which were heavenly creatures.

The Mighty Sword
Jul 22nd 2009, 02:55 AM
:lol: I try. Honestly, I try my best.


I though you'd like that.

Br. Barnabas
Jul 22nd 2009, 04:37 PM
James Charlesworth has written an entire book (700+) pages on snakes and the ancient world and Christianity.

I had the great fortune of hearing this brilliant scholar talk about his research.

From what he said, the snake, in ancient Jewish culture was the symbol of wisdom and was not evil. Even in some Christian artwork and other works the snake is a good thing. What is really being pointed out in the passage you quote was that Jesus has to be lifted up on the cross as the snake was in the desert, so that people can be healed, made full/right again. Brought back to a right relationship with God.

Here (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Evil-Serpent-Universal-Christianized/dp/0300140827/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248280243&sr=8-1) is a link to the amazon.com profile of the book.