PDA

View Full Version : Why in this scenario does God kill?



Jeffinator
Jul 22nd 2009, 02:17 AM
Genesis 38: 6-10: Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn; her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord put him to death. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.” But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

Here God killed Er and Onan. Er for a reason we dont know and Onan for not wanting to get Er's ex-wife pregnant.

Its just confusing I guess because I read about all the horrible things Judah, and Jacob and everyone else does and yet they are considered saints and God overlooks their mistakes. But Onan pulls out to not get a woman pregnant and is killed for it. In fact that same chapter Judah goes out and sleeps with Tamar, Er's wife, because he thinks shes a prostitute and nothing happens. Since when is God picky on who he disciplines in their sins?

-SEEKING-
Jul 22nd 2009, 02:23 AM
If you really think about it, we all deserve to be killed because of our sin and wickedness. It's only because of Jesus' blood on us, that death passes over.

The Mighty Sword
Jul 22nd 2009, 02:42 AM
Why does God kill some and not others?

There are many mysteries of GOD and that is one of them. Just know he does all things for his sake and his glory.

markedward
Jul 22nd 2009, 03:50 AM
My conclusions are this:

Er was a particularly wicked individual, so God caused his premature death to come about.

Onan thus had to take up the responsibilty as Er's brother. This meant that, since Er had no children, Onan was to "go into" Er's widow Tamar and provide her with a child. This child would legally be Er's, not Onan's, and hence, Er's family line would continue. In the end, Onan used Tamar for sex, but refused to follow through with his responsibility to Er. Onan acted selfishly and stubbornly, violating both Er's family line (figuratively) and Er's wife (literally). Hence, God caused Onan's premature death.

Judah promised Tamar his other son Shelah, but we're shown that he pretty much backed out of this promise. So, Tamar tricked Judah into having sex with her, and she finally had twin sons. According to Judah, Tamar was "more righteous" than him; Er performed wickedness for wickedness sake, Onan performed wickedness for wickedness sake, Judah had "good intentions" but did nothing... in the end, Tamar's actions, though wicked in nature, were "good intentions" and they eventually worked out for the better.

Does this mean that the ends justify the means? Not even close. But we do see that Tamar's actions were consequentially less wicked than the actions of the men, and that God - in his infinitely incomprehensible wisdom and justice - had reason to spare both Judah and Tamar of immediate punishment.

We can never fully grasp God's actions, and why he appears to act "picky" in different situations.

Vhayes
Jul 22nd 2009, 03:53 AM
I believe Tamar and Judah are mentioned in the geneology of Christ as well.

Desperaux
Jul 22nd 2009, 04:09 AM
I believe Tamar and Judah are mentioned in the geneology of Christ as well.

Yes! God's ultimate actions regarding people surrounds His careful planning and preserving of the Lord Jesus Christ's bloodline--not exactly made up of saintly people.

RabbiKnife
Jul 22nd 2009, 12:43 PM
The point was that Onan had a duty to provide an heir for his dead brother in order to continue the family line of inheritance for his brother. By refusing to do so, he would be the one to receive the inheritance.

He was greedy. So God killed him.

We could learn something from that.

MarleVVLL
Jul 22nd 2009, 12:49 PM
If you really think about it, we all deserve to be killed because of our sin and wickedness. It's only because of Jesus' blood on us, that death passes over.

This. Only one sin will throw a human to hell forever (lets not even talk about our nature).

jayne
Jul 22nd 2009, 02:44 PM
The Bible says that Er was "evil". God killed him. I have no problems with that. That's God's business. And it makes me want to shy far away from evil, myself.



Gen 38
[8] And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.


"Raise up seed to thy brother" means that Onan's biological children with Tamar would be legally Er's children. That was a very big deal.

You are missing the point if you think that he just didn't want to impregnate her.




[9] And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

If his biological children from his own flesh would be considered his dead brother's legal heirs, then those children would receive the double portion that the dead brother would have received if he had lived.

Onan, because Er had no children, should have now been the heir to the double portion. Possibly the double portion plus his own portion.

But now, he would never receive it because any children born to him would not be considered his.

His own greedy heart took over.

He dishonored Tamar by not completing the sexual act with her. He dishonored his dead brother by not giving up his own children to become the legal heirs of Er, receiving the double portion.

And he dishonored his earthly father by not obeying him and he dishonored God by all of the above coupled with a greedy and selfish soul.

God, apparently, had had enough. I have no problems with that. That's God's business. And it makes me take my responsibilities much more seriously.

Now, what about Judah.......


Yes, he was a poor father. His sons were rebellious and he did nothing about it.
Yes, he dishonored Tamar, himself, by not keeping his promise to give her the younger son when he grew up.
Yes, he solicited what he thought was a prostitute.
But guess what what different about him than Er and Onan. Two things.


He was repentant. He admitted his unrighteousness in verse 26, he admitted that it was his fault that Tamar had to go to such lengths to stay in his family, and he turned his back on his sin.
God had a plan for his life that included being a father to the twins that Tamar bore.
God spared Judah. I have no problem with that. That's God's business. And it makes me have a strong desire to be more repentant, myself.

tt1106
Jul 22nd 2009, 03:08 PM
Let's not forget that Judah took a Canaanite wife, as well.
They were told not to inter-mingle, and yet do they obey. No.
Then the Bible states that Er is Evil in the isght of the Lord. I think you can presume that the Lord saw his heart and it was UGLY. Next you've got the disobedient son, who Judah is trying to get right with the Lord, by having him Father sons with Tamar. But he is also disobedient.

You can see the similarities in Jacob's story and the story of the sons. It was tradition for the first born to get the inheritance. But God has different plans.

Judah then becomes deceptive and instead of allowing the Lord to use Shelah for his good purpose, he decides to do his own thing. Promising Shelah but not followign through. Thereby deciding that Tamar would likve a lonely life with no children under her father's roof. Tamar takes matters into her own hands and the Lord uses her to expose Judah's sin.

Tamar has Judah's twins. Interestingly enough, the Lord taketh (two sons) and the Lord Giveth (two sons). Blessed be the name of the Lord.

th1bill
Jul 22nd 2009, 07:50 PM
... My answer will never satisfy anyone's thirst for an answer but it is the truth. God has a perspective that no man can gain access to. ACTS 15:8 God knows what is in our heart. Now, since we know that God's judgment is perfect and through our life experiences we learn that some men intentionally push to tempt God it would seem perfectly reasonable that they had just pushed one t many times ad He passed judgment. Another point to consider is the fact that God knows everything that will ever happen and, very well could be that God had contended with these men that would never turn to Him.
... As for the sins of Judah, David and another saint named Bill Taylor, we turned our lives over to God. By dead reckoning that did not erase any of the wrong deeds that we are guilty of but in the spiritual realm those same instances have been deleted ad written over and over and cannot ad will not be recovered for the purposes of judgment.

Zenas
Jul 23rd 2009, 01:25 AM
God specifically forbid Abram, whom he renamed Abraham, the Father of Many Nations, [this is important] to marry a Canaanite. Abraham made his eldest servant Put, swear by "the Lord, the God of heaven and the the God of the earth, not to take a wife unto my son Isaac, of the daughters of the Canaanites," but instead from Abraham's country and his kindred. Genesis 24:2-4

This injunction was repeated for Jacob by Isaac in Genesis 281, 2. "And Isaac called Jacob and blessed him and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. Arise.....go to thy mother's father and take thee a wife from there of the daughters of Laban, thy mother's brother."

God's people, the Israelites, were not to marry and have children except with their own people. And God specifically prohibits miscegenation with Canaanites, in part because of their Baal worship. [Read also I Chron. 4:21 where Asheba is a form of Ish-Baal.] In fact, evidence suggests that the true rendering of the Commandment "Thou shall not commit adultery" should read, "Thou shalt not commit miscegenation." See also Malachi 2:11 where God refers to the union between Judah and the "daughter of a foreign god" as a treacherous abomination.

For more on Baal Worship: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=B&artid=2

Judah sinned against God in that he married a Canaanite woman - Shua. Shua bore Judah three sons, Er, Onan and Shelah. Er is said to be "wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." I would suggest the Lord slew Er because of his religious practice of Baal worship. Then Onan would not raise up seed unto his brother Er, and therefore, because Onan too was the offspring of the forbidden union between Judah and a Canaanite woman, the Lord slew him.

It was Tamar's two sons, conceived after her union with her father-in-law Judah, Perez and Zerah, that are the unadulterated offspring of Judah. It is through this son of Judah, Perez, that the genealogy of Jesus is traced in Matthew 1:3. Had Judah kept his promise of giving Tamar his son Shelah, when he came of age, Judah's line would have had no pure Israelite blood.

The offspring of the other non-Israelite and un-holy union between Judah and the Canaanite woman Shua - Shelah - is were many of the so-called Jews [from the tribe of Judah] that Jesus Christ would eventually tangle with in John - see John 10:24 - descended from. They were "not of his sheep" that is, they were not pure Israelites and therefore believe not. verse 26. It was not that these Jews, ie. the offspring of the unholy union of Judah and Shua, would not believe, they could not believe because of the unholy union the commenced their beginning. These "Jews" claimed to come from their father Abraham, but were in contrast, as Jesus Christ pointedly told them, "of their father the devil."

This background might help explain why Er and Onan were slain by the Lord.

Abraham and his offspring - the descendants of Isaac and Jacob, were to become a great nation - not to be confused with the nation of Israel that is with us today. We know this from Genesis 13:16 - Abraham's seed was to be "as the dust of the earth." And Genesis 15:5 "as the stars." These facts precludes these passages referring to the Israel of the so-called Jews of today, because they number about 18 million people world-wide.

It was through all of Abraham's descendants - the 12 Tribes - that all the families of the world would be blessed. Genesis 12:1-3. This is what is known as the Abrahamic Covenant and was made between God and all of Abrahams descendants.
__________

ConqueredbyLove
Jul 23rd 2009, 01:34 AM
Yes! God's ultimate actions regarding people surrounds His careful planning and preserving of the Lord Jesus Christ's bloodline--not exactly made up of saintly people.

Correct...There are harlots in the bloodline of the Lord Jesus Christ...

Rahab is still defined as a harlot in Hebrews 11. The first time my pastor's wife noticed that she was shocked :o Might just shock some people here :saint:

sparrow hawk
Jul 23rd 2009, 02:40 AM
Correct...There are harlots in the bloodline of the Lord Jesus Christ...

Rahab is still defined as a harlot in Hebrews 11. The first time my pastor's wife noticed that she was shocked :o Might just shock some people here :saint:

In both the Hebrew and Greek "harlot" can also mean "idolatress", but the main meaning is prostitute.

And Rahab was justified because of her good works.

Rahab of Jericho who aided the spies to escape; saved from the destruction of Jericho; married Salmon, an ancestor of David and of Christ; commended for her faith in the book of James.

AndrewBaptistFL
Jul 23rd 2009, 03:53 PM
God always punishes the wicked. Our only hope to escape death is through Jesus, who paid the penalty for our sins so that we don't have to. All we have to do is follow Him.

ELL
Jul 23rd 2009, 04:05 PM
Genesis 38: 6-10: Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn; her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord put him to death. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.” But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

Here God killed Er and Onan. Er for a reason we dont know and Onan for not wanting to get Er's ex-wife pregnant.

Its just confusing I guess because I read about all the horrible things Judah, and Jacob and everyone else does and yet they are considered saints and God overlooks their mistakes. But Onan pulls out to not get a woman pregnant and is killed for it. In fact that same chapter Judah goes out and sleeps with Tamar, Er's wife, because he thinks shes a prostitute and nothing happens. Since when is God picky on who he disciplines in their sins?


What horrible things?

tt1106
Jul 23rd 2009, 04:18 PM
In both the Hebrew and Greek "harlot" can also mean "idolatress", but the main meaning is prostitute.

And Rahab was justified because of her good works.

Rahab of Jericho who aided the spies to escape; saved from the destruction of Jericho; married Salmon, an ancestor of David and of Christ; commended for her faith in the book of James.

As well as her faith.
Joshua 2
9 (http://bible.cc/joshua/2-9.htm) and said to the men, “I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land have melted away before you. 10 (http://bible.cc/joshua/2-10.htm) “For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11 (http://bible.cc/joshua/2-11.htm) “When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath. 12 (http://bible.cc/joshua/2-12.htm) “Now therefore, please swear to me by the LORD, since I have dealt kindly with you, that you also will deal kindly with my father’s household, and give me a pledge of truth, 13 (http://bible.cc/joshua/2-13.htm) and spare my father and my mother and my brothers and my sisters, with all who belong to them, and deliver our lives from death.”

ELL
Jul 23rd 2009, 04:59 PM
Rahab was not a harlot from my studies, alot of traditions called her that but the word really reveals something else.

Desperaux
Jul 23rd 2009, 05:14 PM
Rahab was not a harlot from my studies, alot of traditions called her that but the word really reveals something else.

It isn't tradition that calls Rahab a harlot--it is the scriptures.

Scubadude
Jul 23rd 2009, 09:47 PM
Genesis 38: 6-10: Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn; her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord put him to death. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.” But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

Here God killed Er and Onan. Er for a reason we dont know and Onan for not wanting to get Er's ex-wife pregnant.

Its just confusing I guess because I read about all the horrible things Judah, and Jacob and everyone else does and yet they are considered saints and God overlooks their mistakes. But Onan pulls out to not get a woman pregnant and is killed for it. In fact that same chapter Judah goes out and sleeps with Tamar, Er's wife, because he thinks shes a prostitute and nothing happens. Since when is God picky on who he disciplines in their sins?


I think the entire passage is about trusting God's promises by continuing the blood line of Abraham to Jesus. Onan knew his place in the line of Christ, but refused to participate. Onan was saying by his actions that he holds the entire situation (Christ) in contempt.

Judah was tricked into maintaining the blood line (saved by a loving, crafty woman who remembered Christ) and called her more righteous than himself. He knew the entire situation was a rebuke to him for thinking of only himself, not the things of God. God not killing Judah was grace. Plus, he got to be a dad.

Zenas
Jul 23rd 2009, 10:43 PM
________________________________________


Onan knew his place in the line of Christ, but refused to participate.One problem w/this view is Onan, being the son of a non-Israelite ie. Shua, could have no place in the line of Christ. As stated in a previous post in this thread, God forbid marrying Canaanite women. Jacob violated this commandment of God.

Jacob, is the man who finally impregnates Tamar, resulting in two sons of unmixed blood, Perez and Zerah, Perez being mention in Matthew 1:3 as being in the line of Christ.

_____

Scubadude
Jul 23rd 2009, 11:40 PM
________________________________________

One problem w/this view is Onan, being the son of a non-Israelite ie. Shua, could have no place in the line of Christ. As stated in a previous post in this thread, God forbid marrying Canaanite women. Jacob violated this commandment of God.

Jacob, is the man who finally impregnates Tamar, resulting in two sons of unmixed blood, Perez and Zerah, Perez being mention in Matthew 1:3 as being in the line of Christ.

_____

It seems that God wanted to add non-jews to the family line long before the New Testament. The question on my mind is "Who was Onan trying to kid? It is the same situation as Ananias and Sapphira. Their behavior was evil, and they thought manipulating their situation to their benefit was the same as manipulating God. They were wrong.


"In fact, evidence suggests that the true rendering of the Commandment "Thou shall not commit adultery" should read, "Thou shalt not commit miscegenation." See also Malachi 2:11 where God refers to the union between Judah and the "daughter of a foreign god" as a treacherous abomination. "\]

I don't thin k the OP is about genetics, though it does involve it. So, by your rendering of "Thou shalt not commit adultery", God wasn't so concerned about infidelity as he was genetic engineering. If God didn't say don't commit adultery, how did the Jew's learn not to commit adultery?

Zenas
Jul 24th 2009, 11:13 AM
It seems that God wanted to add non-jews to the family line long before the New Testament....These passages are not dealing with "Jews" as many have been led to understand the term today. There was only one tribe of 12 that could be accurately referred to as Jews, those from the tribe of Judah. And the designation has nothing to do with the religion of Judaism. Much like there is only one state of the 50 states that the residents can be referred to as Texans and has nothing to do with religion. I read in many threads within this forum the vast confusion because of this misunderstanding. The terms Hebrews, Israelites and Jews are not synonymous terms. Most of the Old and New Testament deals with non-Jews. Jesus Christ said plainly he was come to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel, [Matthew 10:6, 15:24] not the lost Jews from the single tribe of Judah.

Deut.
2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and [I]the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

_____________________________________

What I am suggesting is that God is concerned with miscegenation in the passages under discussion, not adultery. After all, Tamar was Judah's daughter-in-law - not his wife, so he did commit adultery [or more precisely fornication, as neither were married] with his act. Judah did mistakenly think she was a harlot - so was going into a harlot, but Tamar knew who Judah was - and yet the line of Christ is traced through the result of their union - Perez - as shown in Matthew 1:3.

_______________

how did the Jew's learn not to commit adultery?There are other commandments found in the OT that clearly refer to adultery. Like -

Leviticus 20:10 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Leviticus%2020.10)

The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife,
the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.

Henry
Jul 24th 2009, 12:45 PM
But Onan pulls out to not get a woman pregnant and is killed for it.

Are you concerned that when you do that interuptus thing that a lightning bolt will strike you? ;)

Scubadude
Jul 24th 2009, 10:20 PM
These passages are not dealing with "Jews" as many have been led to understand the term today. There was only one tribe of 12 that could be accurately referred to as Jews, those from the tribe of Judah. And the designation has nothing to do with the religion of Judaism. Much like there is only one state of the 50 states that the residents can be referred to as Texans and has nothing to do with religion. I read in many threads within this forum the vast confusion because of this misunderstanding. The terms Hebrews, Israelites and Jews are not synonymous terms. Most of the Old and New Testament deals with non-Jews. Jesus Christ said plainly he was come to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel, [Matthew 10:6, 15:24] not the lost Jews from the single tribe of Judah.

Deut.
2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and [I]the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.





Okay, first of all, wow. That is very interesting! :hmm:


Then, are you suggesting that antisemitism is directed towards one tribe Judah, and/or we have confused the word jew to mean all 12 tribes?

Zenas
Jul 24th 2009, 10:50 PM
_________________________________________


Then, are you suggesting that antisemitism is directed towards one tribe Judah, and/or we have confused the word jew to mean all 12 tribes?There is much confusion about what the word jew means. Please note that John in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 states that there are those which say they are jews, but are not, but do lie. When we find something in Scripture repeated almost verbatim, it is thus emphasized and worth a close study.

I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;

So, yes, there are those today who claim to be jews but are not. And yes, there is much confusion regarding who the 12 tribes of Israel were and are. The 12 tribes were not all jews. Hebrew, Israelite and Jew are not synonymous terms.

I see a vast amount of confusion that exists today regarding this issue, much of it on this forum.

"God is not the author of confusion." I Corinthians 14:33

_____

Getting a proper understanding of this issue is important because we have been warned:

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. Luke 21:12

Scubadude
Jul 24th 2009, 11:12 PM
___

I see a vast amount of confusion that exists today regarding this issue, much of it on this forum.

"God is not the author of confusion." I Corinthians 14:33



Thanks, Zenas

And I agree. There is much confusion on this forum regarding many issues. It's a good place to think things through a little better.

Looking forward to running in to you around the boards.

cnur1
Jul 25th 2009, 01:50 AM
I haven't taken time to read everyone's post to see what each is saying, but off the cuff, the killings which took place in the OT were for this reason: The bloodline of Christ was being preserved for His 'seed' to be intact when HE was to be sacrificed for us on the Cross. That is the miracle recorded in the OT, that HE preserved the bloodline of Christ till then. Then began a new covenant. But if they intermingled with the heathen, the bloodline was threatened. Therefore Christ dealt severely with heathen nations, or with the children of Abraham so that they would not intermingle, and forfiet the plan of God. What du you think?