PDA

View Full Version : Question about Baptism in the Holy Spirit?



chad
Jul 26th 2009, 08:49 PM
What does being baptised in the holy spirit mean?

Is it important that believers are baptised in the Holy Spirit?

Bladers
Jul 26th 2009, 09:43 PM
What does being baptised in the holy spirit mean?

Is it important that believers are baptised in the Holy Spirit?

When the Holy Ghost comes upon you, when you are endued with Power.

Luke 3:16
John answered, ...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

The apostles received the Holy Spirit in them before Jesus left(John 20:22) [SALVATION]
But then the day Jesus was about to leave he told them,
"Behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."(Luke 24:49)

Endued means to be clothed. [BAPTISM]
Then Jesus went further and explained, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you" (Act 1:8)

ZAB
Jul 26th 2009, 10:52 PM
What does being baptised in the holy spirit mean?

Is it important that believers are baptised in the Holy Spirit?

Hello Chad,
I just posted a couple posts regarding these same topics... interesting. I personally agree with Bladers. But I also want to add something. To be honest, many do not realize that our initial salvation is preparatory for the receiving of the Holy Ghost. We don't just simply get saved and then remain stagnant. Rather, the blood of Jesus is to make us able to receive the gift and baptism of the Holy Ghost, and to facilitate sanctification.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham [justification by faith] might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; [in order that] that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Also:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it [justification];
Eph 5:26 [in order that] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 [in order that] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Thus, justification is to yield sanctification which is to yield glorification.

To neglect the baptism in the Holy Spirit (a separate and distinct experience from our initial salvation, as Bladers pointed out) is to neglect God's provision and power.

For more information about the Baptism as a separate experience, visit some others posts here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=181967

God bless you,

Z.

BroRog
Jul 27th 2009, 01:21 AM
Hello Chad,
I just posted a couple posts regarding these same topics... interesting. I personally agree with Bladers. But I also want to add something. To be honest, many do not realize that our initial salvation is preparatory for the receiving of the Holy Ghost. We don't just simply get saved and then remain stagnant. Rather, the blood of Jesus is to make us able to receive the gift and baptism of the Holy Ghost, and to facilitate sanctification.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham [justification by faith] might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; [in order that] that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Also:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it [justification];
Eph 5:26 [in order that] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 [in order that] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Thus, justification is to yield sanctification which is to yield glorification.

To neglect the baptism in the Holy Spirit (a separate and distinct experience from our initial salvation, as Bladers pointed out) is to neglect God's provision and power.

For more information about the Baptism as a separate experience, visit some others posts here: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=181967

God bless you,

Z.

I don't think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a "seperate and distinct experience from our initial salvation." Can you provide scriptures that say this?

chad
Jul 27th 2009, 01:39 AM
Thanks all for your answers so far.

The New testament instructs us to be lead by the spirit (Holy Spirit).

How Does being baptized in the holy spirit - help us to be lead by the Holy Spirit in our lives?

Bladers
Jul 27th 2009, 02:51 AM
Thanks all for your answers so far.

The New testament instructs us to be lead by the spirit (Holy Spirit).

How Does being baptized in the holy spirit - help us to be lead by the Holy Spirit in our lives?

Sure Definitely.
Look at peter and the apostles when Jesus was arrested, They fled because the were afraid. Even peter that said "Lord i will die for you", he denied Jesus before the pharisees.

After Jesus resurrected, they were still afraid even after Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit to dwell in them (John 20:22) and they were saved. But Jesus pulled them aside and told them, "wait till you be clothed with my power from heaven after the Holy Spirit comes on you not in you, then and only then can you Witness with power".

[For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power] 1 Corinthians 4:20

And when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit and with Fire, these same men who ran away from the Lord in the days of his flesh. The same men were preaching the Gospel to thousands in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

These same men that used to fear the pharisees, all of the sudden began proclaiming to them, "should we listen to you or to God". These same men that did not want to die were praising God that they were counted worthy to suffer for Jesus.

Everything about them were changed, and Peter who denied the Lord one month earlier, became the man of Pentecost!

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not even a one time deal, because the apostles were baptized again a couple of days after the day of Pentecost and the building they were in literally shook. They went from Power to Great Power and Boldness.

Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 02:53 AM
I don't think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a "seperate and distinct experience from our initial salvation." Can you provide scriptures that say this?

Hi BroRog,
please follow the link in my original post (post # 3 on this thread)

Blessings,

Z.

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 03:04 AM
Thanks all for your answers so far.

The New testament instructs us to be lead by the spirit (Holy Spirit).

How Does being baptized in the holy spirit - help us to be lead by the Holy Spirit in our lives?

Because how can we fully be lead of Him if we are not fully immersed in Him? He is our comforter and guide. He has sealed us until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). He renews us (Tit 3:5); He strengthens us in our inner man (Eph 3:16-19). He is the path towards intimacy with Jesus (Gal 4:6). If He is the power and love of God shed abroad in our hearts (Rom 5:5), then I want all He has to offer! I want to be immersed!


Z.

BroRog
Jul 27th 2009, 04:09 AM
Hi BroRog,
please follow the link in my original post (post # 3 on this thread)

Blessings,

Z.

Been there. I read it and rejected it. I disagree with your interpretation of Jesus' commands to the Apostles, which you apply to all believers. When Jesus tells his apostles to go to Jerusalem to wait for the power, he is talking directly to and specifically about them as apostles. And what the apostles got at Pentecost was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The truth of the matter is that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a second blessing, or a second work of grace, or whatever. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens to all those whom God has chosen for salvation and denotes the born again experience as Jesus describes to Nicodemus.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I believe the concept of being filled with the Spirit is different than that of being Baptized in the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit is a special gift given to those on whom the Apostle has laid his hands. But the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that all believers experience as being born again.

Bladers
Jul 27th 2009, 04:45 AM
Been there. I read it and rejected it. I disagree with your interpretation of Jesus' commands to the Apostles, which you apply to all believers. When Jesus tells his apostles to go to Jerusalem to wait for the power, he is talking directly to and specifically about them as apostles. And what the apostles got at Pentecost was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
.

the Bible actually oppose your above statement!
Jesus told them plainly that they will receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit in a few days.

Acts 1:4-5
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Who should i listen to? Jesus words or your words?

chad
Jul 27th 2009, 08:34 AM
Ok about the seal of the Holy Spirit. Is this something that we receive when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit?

In the NT we have examples of the Holy Spirit descending on people (those who did not yet believe), then they were baptized.

The bible also says we are the temples of the Holy Sprit and the spirit (Holy Spirit) dwells within us.
So I guess what I’m asking is: if we are non believers, we can sense the presence of the Holy Spirit. But when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, the spirit then dwells within us. The Holy Spirit becomes our comforter and counsellor.

Do we have a closer relationship with God, after being baptized in the Holy Spirit as compared to not being baptized in the Holy Spirit.


Because how can we fully be lead of Him if we are not fully immersed in Him? He is our comforter and guide. He has sealed us until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). He renews us (Tit 3:5); He strengthens us in our inner man (Eph 3:16-19). He is the path towards intimacy with Jesus (Gal 4:6). If He is the power and love of God shed abroad in our hearts (Rom 5:5), then I want all He has to offer! I want to be immersed!


Z.

wenlock
Jul 27th 2009, 10:56 AM
What does being baptised in the holy spirit mean?

Is it important that believers are baptised in the Holy Spirit?
One is not a believer unless one is baptised in the Spirit.

Firefighter
Jul 27th 2009, 11:28 AM
I am so terribly glad that we can effectively reduce the Holy Spirit to nothing more that a battery to provide us power when we want it...:B

Bladers
Jul 27th 2009, 12:37 PM
Ok about the seal of the Holy Spirit. Is this something that we receive when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit?


According to the Bible we are sealed immediately at salvation, not when we are baptized with the Spirit

Ephesians 1:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"


In the NT we have examples of the Holy Spirit descending on people (those who did not yet believe), then they were baptized.

Actually, if i'm correct to the scriptures you are referring to. They did believe.
If you read Acts 19:1-6. They were actually disciples and had believed on the Lord Jesus. Now according to the bible they were saved and the Holy Spirit indwelt in them but they were not baptized with the Holy Spirit.



So I guess what Iím asking is: if we are non believers, we can sense the presence of the Holy Spirit. But when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, the spirit then dwells within us. The Holy Spirit becomes our comforter and counsellor. Do we have a closer relationship with God, after being baptized in the Holy Spirit as compared to not being baptized in the Holy Spirit.


First, Baptism (with) the holy Spirit does not happen at salvation. Baptism is when the Holy Spirit comes on us not in us.
Before salvation, Yes we sense the presence of the Holy Spirit when he begins to convict us, but when we surrender to Jesus. He comes in and dwells.
I like saying it as Jesus said it. He said: "He is with you, Shall be in you, then later shall come upon you"

1) With you - The Holy Spirit is with you before salvation to convict you. (John 14:17)
2) In you - He comes in you at salvation to indwell, and to seal you. (John 20:22/Eph 1:13)
3) Upon you - He comes upon you to empower you, for service (Acts 1:8)

Paul asked this question, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"(Gal 3:3).

You see, we all start some place at salvation.
Then the more we fellowship with the Spirit and read God's Word. Our relationship with God increase!
There is no limit on how close we can be with God.

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 01:37 PM
Been there. I read it and rejected it. I disagree with your interpretation of Jesus' commands to the Apostles, which you apply to all believers. When Jesus tells his apostles to go to Jerusalem to wait for the power, he is talking directly to and specifically about them as apostles. And what the apostles got at Pentecost was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The truth of the matter is that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a second blessing, or a second work of grace, or whatever. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens to all those whom God has chosen for salvation and denotes the born again experience as Jesus describes to Nicodemus.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I believe the concept of being filled with the Spirit is different than that of being Baptized in the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit is a special gift given to those on whom the Apostle has laid his hands. But the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that all believers experience as being born again.


The bottom line is this: In Scripture, where the baptism (or filling) of the Holy Ghost is mentioned, it is recorded as a second subsequent experience. Do you have any Biblical evidence that suggests otherwise? Please do share.

Z.

wenlock
Jul 27th 2009, 01:40 PM
The bottom line is this: In Scripture, where the baptism (or filling) of the Holy Ghost is mentioned, it is recorded as a second subsequent experience.
Is it?


..............

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 03:59 PM
Is it?


..............

Greetings Wenlock, and welcome...

I would encourage you to heed the rest of my statement also (of which you did not quote) that asked for contrary evidence, if any is available. Let's try to add to the discussion from a sound and reasonable point of view.

Thanks,

Z.

wenlock
Jul 27th 2009, 04:28 PM
Greetings Wenlock, and welcome...

I would encourage you to heed the rest of my statement also (of which you did not quote) that asked for contrary evidence, if any is available. Let's try to add to the discussion from a sound and reasonable point of view.

Thanks,

Z.
We may take it that the statement that 'a second subsequent experience' existed was unintended.

John146
Jul 27th 2009, 06:42 PM
According to the Bible we are sealed immediately at salvation, not when we are baptized with the Spirit

Ephesians 1:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"According to the Bible we are placed into the body of Christ upon being baptized by/with the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Are you saying you think we are baptized with the Spirit into the body of Christ at a different time than we are sealed "with that holy Spirit of promise"?

BroRog
Jul 27th 2009, 06:50 PM
the Bible actually oppose your above statement!
Jesus told them plainly that they will receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit in a few days.

Acts 1:4-5
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Who should i listen to? Jesus words or your words?

Jesus, obviously! :)

But then, Jesus was talking specifically to his Apostles, commanding them to go to Jerusalem. How do you then apply this to others?

BroRog
Jul 27th 2009, 06:56 PM
The bottom line is this: In Scripture, where the baptism (or filling) of the Holy Ghost is mentioned, it is recorded as a second subsequent experience. Do you have any Biblical evidence that suggests otherwise? Please do share.

Z.


I suppose that if being baptized in the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are synonymous, then I guess I would agree with you. Can you show me how you came to the conclusion that these two things are synonymous?

Also, it would appear from events in Acts that in order for someone other than an Apostle to be filled with the Holy Spirit the apostle must lay hands on the person. Is that right?

Bladers
Jul 27th 2009, 06:58 PM
According to the Bible we are placed into the body of Christ upon being baptized by/with the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Are you saying you think we are baptized with the Spirit into the body of Christ at a different time than we are sealed "with that holy Spirit of promise"?


First, Why are you adding to the Word of God? It says, By the Holy Spirit we are baptized into the body of christ.

This is the baptism into the Body of Christ[SALVATION], The baptizer is the Holy Ghost and it only happens once.
This is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire, which results in power and has no limit. The baptizer is Jesus, this is the filling of the Spirit.

BroRog
Jul 27th 2009, 07:08 PM
First, Why are you adding to the Word of God? It says, By the Holy Spirit we are baptized into the body of christ.

This is the baptism into the Body of Christ[SALVATION], The baptizer is the Holy Ghost.
This is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire, which results in power. The baptizer is Jesus, this is the filling of the Spirit.

Did you know that the "fire" is applied at the judgment against the "chaff"?

Bladers
Jul 27th 2009, 07:14 PM
Did you know that the "fire" is applied at the judgment against the "chaff"?

John saw a vision of the Day of pentecost and spoke of it. and on that day, visible fire came.

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 07:22 PM
I suppose that if being baptized in the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are synonymous, then I guess I would agree with you. Can you show me how you came to the conclusion that these two things are synonymous?

Hi again,
I do not necessarily see these two happenings as one in the same, though they are related. The baptism in the Holy Ghost, IMHO, is an event that occurs in the life of the believer subsequent to justification (Acts 19:1-5). Once this has happened, it would seem that one is then enabled to partake more and more of the Holy Spirit (what you would call being "filled" - Gal 5:16, 25; Eph 5:18).


Also, it would appear from events in Acts that in order for someone other than an Apostle to be filled with the Holy Spirit the apostle must lay hands on the person. Is that right?

Please supply a Scripture reference. Thanks.

Z.

BroRog
Jul 27th 2009, 07:28 PM
John saw a vision of the Day of pentecost and spoke of it. and on that day, visible fire came.

Can you cite the verse?

What I have in mind is Luke 3:16-17

John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

When Jesus baptizes someone with fire, they are burned up like chaff. Only the wheat survive.

BroRog
Jul 27th 2009, 07:34 PM
Hi again,
I do not necessarily see these two happenings as one in the same, though they are related. The baptism in the Holy Ghost, IMHO, is an event that occurs in the life of the believer subsequent to justification (Acts 19:1-5). Once this has happened, it would seem that one is then enabled to partake more and more of the Holy Spirit (what you would call being "filled" - Gal 5:16, 25; Eph 5:18).



Please supply a Scripture reference. Thanks.

Z.

Sorry, you seemed to know all about it, so I figured you already knew the verses.

Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit . 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they [B]laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit .

Acts 19:6
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they [began] speaking with tongues and prophesying

Bladers
Jul 27th 2009, 07:51 PM
Also, it would appear from events in Acts that in order for someone other than an Apostle to be filled with the Holy Spirit the apostle must lay hands on the person. Is that right?


First paul was not prayed for by an apostle, second cornelius and his house was not laid hands on.

Eben
Jul 27th 2009, 08:13 PM
Jesus spoke to the apostles not to you! We must diferentiate between the different callings. The apostles were to spread the gospel with "Power" for the Jews to see the signs as prophecised by Joel. We are not Jews we are Gentiles. We are baptised "BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST" The Spirit doing the baptising here no water! See also 1Cor1:14 -18. How does that compare to the apostles in Jerusalem?

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 08:48 PM
Sorry, you seemed to know all about it, so I figured you already knew the verses.

Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit . 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they [B]laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit .

Acts 19:6
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they [began] speaking with tongues and prophesying

Actually, I have heard it before, just wasn't sure which reference you were referring to. I simply want to be on the same page. My grandfather is a Baptist minister, and holds this view as well. I assume you are saying that the Holy Ghost and His manifestations are expired because there are no living original apostles. Would that be an accurate assumption?

If so, I do not see how that is necessary for the impartation of the Holy Ghost. That simply tells me that some have it and some do not. How interesting that it was yet "apostles" who called for Peter and John, other, more apt apostles.

Perhaps they were known to do such? Or perhaps some have such a ministry while others do not (e.g. the working of miracles, or the gift of faith - 1 Cor 12:8-11)?

Whatever the reason, it would be a gigantic assumption to assume that the original apostles alone had the ability to impart the Holy Ghost. What hope is there for us then, upon whom the end of the world has come?

The apostles at Pentecost actually described what was happening when the Holy Ghost came:

Acts 2:16 "But this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh..."


Z.

RabbiKnife
Jul 27th 2009, 08:52 PM
Question:

If the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" = what happened at Pentecost, then in additional to "speaking in tongues", shouldn't there also be tongue of fire up above someone's head when they received the "baptism of the Holy Ghost"?

I don't hear anyone claiming the fire part, even though we seem to change the terminology when necessary.

wenlock
Jul 27th 2009, 08:58 PM
Question:

If the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" = what happened at Pentecost, then in additional to "speaking in tongues", shouldn't there also be tongue of fire up above someone's head when they received the "baptism of the Holy Ghost"?

I don't hear anyone claiming the fire part, even though we seem to change the terminology when necessary.
One might also expect to read records of significant utterances that have been interpreted for the edification of the church, but I at least have yet to read even one such record.

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 09:12 PM
Question:

If the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" = what happened at Pentecost, then in additional to "speaking in tongues", shouldn't there also be tongue of fire up above someone's head when they received the "baptism of the Holy Ghost"?

I don't hear anyone claiming the fire part, even though we seem to change the terminology when necessary.

Greetings,
Firstly, it doesn't say it was literal fire:

Acts 2:3 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them."

Fire is not always a physical thing. Sometimes, in Scripture, it is a spiritual principle. Most scholars would say that this particular instance simply displayed the beautiful and visible symbol of the burning energy of the Spirit now descending in all His plenitude upon the Church, and about to pour itself through every tongue, and over every tribe of men under heaven! And since this was the very first occurrence, it would naturally be visible to the naked eye. This is not to suppose that every occurrence hereafter is to be identical in physical appearance. God uses the natural to further explain the spiritual truth therein.

Ps 39:3 "My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue..."

Jer 20:9 "...But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones..."

Ezek 3:14 "So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me."

Baptism by fire (Matt 3:11) is not literal fire, but that's for a whole new thread.


Z.

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 09:14 PM
One might also expect to read records of significant utterances that have been interpreted for the edification of the church, but I at least have yet to read even one such record.

Then you, dear friend, need to read more.

wenlock
Jul 27th 2009, 09:34 PM
Then you, dear friend, need to read more.
Where, please?


......

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 09:44 PM
Where, please?


......

Are you asking for written material teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and His divine manifestations, or do you seek written testimony of such in practice? I'm not sure I follow you.


Z.

Slug1
Jul 27th 2009, 09:47 PM
One might also expect to read records of significant utterances that have been interpreted for the edification of the church, but I at least have yet to read even one such record.We had an 8 year old girl have the Holy Spirit come upon her and she fell out and prayed in tongues. A portion of this was translated by another young girl in our church and the message was to give confirmation and direction for the youth of our church.

You can find testimony if you look also ;)

wenlock
Jul 27th 2009, 09:48 PM
Are you asking for written material teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and His divine manifestations, or do you seek written testimony of such in practice? I'm not sure I follow you.


Z.
The latter. Utterances claimed to be of divine, supernatural origin.

ZAB
Jul 27th 2009, 10:01 PM
The latter. Utterances claimed to be of divine, supernatural origin.

Ahh, I see. There are numerous books. One I have is called "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity". There are many records there.

I do understand that there are a lot of "spooky" people who simply want to "be spiritual", and thus pervert what the Holy Ghost wants to do. We, as reasonable people, must be sure not to throw the baby out with the bath water. For example, if we were to witness someone foolishly parading around, and claiming it was the Holy Ghost, that doesn't negate the real and actual ministry of the Holy Ghost as valid. It simply negates the man or woman who is acting in the flesh and striving to be seen of men. I can assure you, that when Jesus truly manifests His Spirit, and moves in and through and upon His people, it is a beautiful thing.

We can read of divine experiences and records all day long, but the best way to experience the Holy Ghost is personally. If we surround ourselves with people who have shunned the ministry of the Holy Spirit, then our desire to see God move as such will probably come to naught.

Blessings to you,

Z.

wenlock
Jul 27th 2009, 10:09 PM
Ahh, I see. There are numerous books. One I have is called "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity". There are many records there.
Then would you quote one or two, please?

BroRog
Jul 27th 2009, 10:49 PM
Actually, I have heard it before, just wasn't sure which reference you were referring to. I simply want to be on the same page. My grandfather is a Baptist minister, and holds this view as well. I assume you are saying that the Holy Ghost and His manifestations are expired because there are no living original apostles. Would that be an accurate assumption?

No, I see no logical or Biblical reason why the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are expired. :) Actually, the more I look at this, the more I see there is NO set way that things are supposed to happen. Sometimes people are filled with the Holy Spirit at the laying on of hands. Other times, as Bladers points out, no hands are laid on a person. The Holy Spirit just does his thing and is not restricted to a set technique.

At the same time, I don't yet see anything in the Bible to suggest that the filling of the Spirit is for everyone, or that a person isn't complete without it. I still have an open mind though. :)

ZAB
Jul 28th 2009, 12:03 AM
Then would you quote one or two, please?

Sure.

Regarding Charles Parham (1873-1929), it was recorded that he held nightly meetings in his Bible school and asked them to research the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues as the evidence. They did and all came to the conclusion that tongues were the evidence of the infilling. One girl asked Parham to pray for her that she would receive what she had just realized in Scripture. He did and said that suddenly there was a halo around her head and she began to speak Chinese. She could not speak English for three days. Later Parham prayed for this same blessing and spoke Swedish for 24 hours strait.

There are many more accounts, but I am too tired to type them all out. You can find the book for sale here: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=1-888435-09-2&x=9&y=17

It records such instances from AD 100 to modern day.


Z.

ZAB
Jul 28th 2009, 12:05 AM
No, I see no logical or Biblical reason why the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are expired. :) Actually, the more I look at this, the more I see there is NO set way that things are supposed to happen. Sometimes people are filled with the Holy Spirit at the laying on of hands. Other times, as Bladers points out, no hands are laid on a person. The Holy Spirit just does his thing and is not restricted to a set technique.

His ways are definitely in the sea!

blessings,

Z.

Butch5
Jul 28th 2009, 01:21 AM
Question:

If the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" = what happened at Pentecost, then in additional to "speaking in tongues", shouldn't there also be tongue of fire up above someone's head when they received the "baptism of the Holy Ghost"?

I don't hear anyone claiming the fire part, even though we seem to change the terminology when necessary.

I agree, it seems no one wants to talk about the fire part.

Butch5
Jul 28th 2009, 01:31 AM
Paul tells us what tongues was for.


1 Corinthians 14:21-22 ( KJV )
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

He quotes Isaiah 28,


Isaiah 28:1-29 ( KJV )
Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

Slug1
Jul 28th 2009, 01:58 AM
I agree, it seems no one wants to talk about the fire part.I talked about it in another thread dealing with this topic of tongues... I think it was ignored there also :P

That one where I commented that in all the examples of a separate Baptism of the Holy Spirit, only one sign was common to all and that was speaking tongues. All the other signs seem to be random based on the will of God.

First person I witnessed receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit stood the entire time, one I watch dance, many I've seen fall to the floor and pray, some of those would spasm slightly, some yelled out in tongues, some did not. Some spoke prophecy and was translated and some did not. The ages were from 4 years old to... I don't know, they were old :idea:

They all spoke in tongues.

Butch5
Jul 28th 2009, 02:05 AM
I talked about it in another thread dealing with this topic of tongues... I think it when ignored there also :P

That one where I commented that in all the examples of a separate Baptism of the Holy Spirit, only one sign was common to all and that was speaking tongues. All the other signs seem to be random based on the will of God.

First person I witnessed receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit stood the entire time, one I watch dance, many I've seen fall to the floor and pray, some of those would spasm slightly, some yelled out in tongues, some did not. Some spoke prophecy and was translated and some did not. The ages were from 4 years old to... I don't know, they were old :idea:

They all spoke in tongues.

My reference was that many people quote Matthew 3:11 where John the baptist tells us that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire, yet they never seem to mention the fire, it is alway the baptism of he Holy Spirit. John the baptist said it was both, not just the Holy Spirit.

Slug1
Jul 28th 2009, 02:18 AM
My reference was that many people quote Matthew 3:11 where John the baptist tells us that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire, yet they never seem to mention the fire, it is alway the baptism of he Holy Spirit. John the baptist said it was both, not just the Holy Spirit.OK... yeah, I see what yer asking/saying. So when a person receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit does the Bible say... when the fire is ignited? Some people are prepared before the Lord sets them on fire and the empowerment is in effect once prepped, some aren't and the anointing is right at that moment and their ministry is empowered. Took the Lord 22 years to prep me for one of the ministries He placed upon me. Seems that sometimes all the fire may be is a desire to pursue the preparation that the Lord has planned before the time for the purpose to begin execution.

Butch5
Jul 28th 2009, 02:24 AM
OK... yeah, I see what yer asking/saying. So when a person receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit does the Bible say... when the fire is ignited? Some people are prepared before the Lord sets them on fire and the empowerment is in effect once prepped, some aren't and the anointing is right at that moment and their ministry is empowered. Took the Lord 22 years to prep me for one of the ministries He placed upon me. Seems that sometimes all the fire may be is a desire to pursue the preparation that the Lord has planned before the time for the purpose to begin execution.

I'm not sure what the baptism with fire is exacly.

Slug1
Jul 28th 2009, 02:32 AM
I'm not sure what the baptism with fire is exacly.Many don't until they experience it, I figure.

I didn't believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit cause of all the very scripture and understanding of scripture that has gone on in every single thread from the day this message board probably opened related to this topic. All the same in this thread and all present open threads right now on this board included.

Until I gave it to God (3 years ago and took a year to answer) and He had to remove me from the church I attended and I was led to another church... that very night I witnessed a Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Lord led me to one scripture that night once I got home as I continued to seek understanding and the Holy Spirit illuminated the meaning for me.

BroRog
Jul 28th 2009, 03:44 AM
I'm not sure what the baptism with fire is exacly.
The Baptism with fire is the judgment, when people are thrown into the lake of fire. Either Jesus baptizes you with the Holy Spirit and you end up in the next age with all the other members of his body, or he baptizes you with fire and you end up being destroyed.

chad
Jul 28th 2009, 06:36 AM
Hi wenlock,

This is an interesting statement. Can you please expand on what you mean?

Thanks



One is not a believer unless one is baptised in the Spirit.

wenlock
Jul 28th 2009, 11:26 AM
Hi wenlock,

This is an interesting statement. Can you please expand on what you mean?
When one believes, i.e. trusts in Christ, at the moment one believes, one is given the power to bind and loose, the keys to the kingdom of heaven, i.e. the means to the rule of Christ in one's life. By forsaking one's own will, by instead trusting, and obeying (there can be no genuine trust until and unless there is obedience), one necessarily gains the mind of Christ in the decisions that one takes. His mind should prevail in all decisions, and in mature Christians, it does. The saint moves from being baptised in the Spirit to being filled with the Spirit. The process of filling takes place in fear and trembling, and is achieved by the Holy Spirit in identifying sins, convicting of them, and bringing the saint to take sides with the Spirit against himself or herself. The result is that the saint hates sin in himself or herself, and, as James commands, resists sin, and becomes resistant to sin, and, as James again commands, becomes sensitive to and opposed to the pollution of the world, which takes many forms, and is ubiquitous (the internet even more than elsewhere).

Being baptised in the Spirit is nothing necessarily to do with exhibiting any gifts of the Spirit. That it is is Satan's lie, and has been for a century or so now. As Jesus warned, the only test of a Christian is fruits, not gifts, which Satan can mimic, and does mimic. The fruits of the Spirit are honesty, kindness, purity, humility, willingness to forgive, a proper fear of God (which is almost completely absent today), self-control (highly unpopular, also), reliability, usefulness, peaceableness, patience, gladness, and love, which means wanting the best for people, not necessarily being nice to them.

I suggest that there are very few genuine gifts of the Spirit manifest today because the Holy Spirit does not give gifts to the unholy. In other words, gifts are given only to those who have fruits. There are many millions who claim faith, but are unwilling to face that essential process of fear and trembling that roots out sins, one by one, and brings one into persecution from the world and the worldly, particularly religious institutions, which they often join. But Jesus will tell them that he never knew them, because they are of the world and the worldly, no matter how much they will protest otherwise.

wenlock
Jul 28th 2009, 12:22 PM
Sure.

Regarding Charles Parham (1873-1929), it was recorded that he held nightly meetings in his Bible school and asked them to research the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues as the evidence. They did and all came to the conclusion that tongues were the evidence of the infilling. One girl asked Parham to pray for her that she would receive what she had just realized in Scripture. He did and said that suddenly there was a halo around her head and she began to speak Chinese. She could not speak English for three days. Later Parham prayed for this same blessing and spoke Swedish for 24 hours strait.

There are many more accounts, but I am too tired to type them all out. You can find the book for sale here: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=1-888435-09-2&x=9&y=17

It records such instances from AD 100 to modern day.
Is this what was requested? A record of a due interpretation of an actual utterance claimed to be of God?

Do we all agree that there has never been one reproduced in print?

Slug1
Jul 28th 2009, 12:59 PM
Is this what was requested? A record of a due interpretation of an actual utterance claimed to be of God?

Do we all agree that there has never been one reproduced in print?Why would a print make any difference. People watched Jesus heal and still didn't believe... today, people read that in the Bible and still don't believe.

I gave testimony of tongues being spoken when a child received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and that it was terped by another child... why would a transcript lend truth to a testimony?

Don't recall if it's in this thread or another dealing with this topic/tongues.

ZAB
Jul 28th 2009, 01:37 PM
Is this what was requested? A record of a due interpretation of an actual utterance claimed to be of God?

Do we all agree that there has never been one reproduced in print?

I honestly don't have any idea what you're talking about, nor what you "requested". Apparently I misunderstood you. Sounds to me like your mind is already made up. That's unfortunate.

wenlock
Jul 28th 2009, 02:24 PM
I honestly don't have any idea what you're talking about, nor what you "requested".
I'll try to be more clear. Paul wrote that one person should speak in tongues at a time, and that another person who listens should interpret what is said.

'If people speak in tongues, only two, or three at the most, should speak. They should do it one at a time, and someone must interpret what each person says. But if an interpreter isn't present, those people should remain silent in church.' 1 Cor 14:27-28

So we can suppose that tongues in the real church are always interpreted. He also wrote this:

'Two or three people should speak what God has revealed. Everyone else should decide whether what each person said is right or wrong.' 1 Cor 14:29 (GW)

So the whole church (the adult men, that is) evaluates what has been said through tongues, to see if God has actually spoken. Now if God has revealed something through tongues, surely it is worth writing it down and getting it into print, provided it is not unduly personal? Surely, in 100 years, there would be something of a general nature that is memorable, and valuable, in what God has revealed to the church? I for one have never heard anything that was worth putting into print, and never read anything in print of this nature, worth printing or not. I'm very willing to read it, though, if it exists.

I hope that makes things clear, but please let me know if not.

Slug1
Jul 28th 2009, 02:47 PM
Wenlock, stand by... let me go get my journal out in the car and type up a transcripted recording of our prophet praying in tongues over me, which was translated...

A month later portions began to come to pass...

wenlock
Jul 28th 2009, 02:52 PM
Wenlock, stand by... let me go get my journal out in the car and type up a transcripted recording of our prophet praying in tongues over me, which was translated...

A month later portions began to come to pass...
This evidence, presumably relating to personal events, does require independent corroboration, of course.

Slug1
Jul 28th 2009, 03:00 PM
This evidence, presumably relating to personal events, does require independent corroboration, of course.OK... so what will cause the earth to quake under your feet then ;)

Does what you just say mean you won't believe what I experienced?

ZAB
Jul 28th 2009, 03:05 PM
I'll try to be more clear. Paul wrote that one person should speak in tongues at a time, and that another person who listens should interpret what is said.

'If people speak in tongues, only two, or three at the most, should speak. They should do it one at a time, and someone must interpret what each person says. But if an interpreter isn't present, those people should remain silent in church.' 1 Cor 14:27-28

So we can suppose that tongues in the real church are always interpreted. He also wrote this:

'Two or three people should speak what God has revealed. Everyone else should decide whether what each person said is right or wrong.' 1 Cor 14:29 (GW)

So the whole church (the adult men, that is) evaluates what has been said through tongues, to see if God has actually spoken. Now if God has revealed something through tongues, surely it is worth writing it down and getting it into print, provided it is not unduly personal? Surely, in 100 years, there would be something of a general nature that is memorable, and valuable, in what God has revealed to the church? I for one have never heard anything that was worth putting into print, and never read anything in print of this nature, worth printing or not. I'm very willing to read it, though, if it exists.

I hope that makes things clear, but please let me know if not.

Ahh, I see now. Forgive me. I'll let Slug1 give you an example. You really should check out that book I mentioned, as I'm sure it would satisfy your curiosity.

wenlock
Jul 28th 2009, 03:07 PM
OK... so what will cause the earth to quake under your feet then ;)

Does what you just say mean you won't believe what I experienced?
Not at all. It is a question of whether the evidence compels belief, even in one who is unwilling to believe.

ZAB
Jul 28th 2009, 03:09 PM
...even in one who is unwilling to believe.
there's your problem right there, brother.

wenlock
Jul 28th 2009, 03:10 PM
Ahh, I see now. Forgive me. I'll let Slug1 give you an example. You really should check out that book I mentioned, as I'm sure it would satisfy your curiosity.
Can we not see a quote?

Slug1
Jul 28th 2009, 03:12 PM
Not at all. It is a question of whether the evidence compels belief, even in one who is unwilling to believe.Well, I'm led to post it. Since then I have even testified to the portion that has come to pass on this forum in threads dealing with Gift's of the Holy Spirit. One just today that ZAB started about the healing of a member of our church... OK, let me type it up.

ZAB
Jul 28th 2009, 03:19 PM
Can we not see a quote?

To be honest with you, I am doing 100 things at once right now, and do not have the time nor energy to type out long historical accounts, of which will probably not appease you anyway. Sorry to be so blunt.

YOU will seek Him and YOU will find Him, when YOU search for Him with all of YOUR heart.


Z.

wenlock
Jul 28th 2009, 03:30 PM
To be honest with you, I am doing 100 things at once right now, and do not have the time nor energy to type out long historical accounts
Just a sentence or two will do. You've already typed a lot more than that. :)


of which will probably not appease you anyway.
There are many who read this thread, surely.

ZAB
Jul 28th 2009, 03:35 PM
Just a sentence or two will do. You've already typed a lot more than that. :)


There are many who read this thread, surely.

I will be happy to get to it later. :)

wenlock
Jul 28th 2009, 03:47 PM
I will be happy to get to it later. :)
Thanks.


........

John146
Jul 28th 2009, 04:33 PM
First, Why are you adding to the Word of God? It says, By the Holy Spirit we are baptized into the body of christ.I didn't add anything to the word of God. That's a pretty serious accusation to make, especially considering the fact that I did no such thing. The word translated "by" can also mean "with". If you weren't so quick to judge and did the research yourself you may have discovered that for yourself.


This is the baptism into the Body of Christ[SALVATION], The baptizer is the Holy Ghost and it only happens once.
This is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire, which results in power and has no limit. The baptizer is Jesus, this is the filling of the Spirit.We don't receive power when we are baptized into the body of Christ?

chad
Jul 28th 2009, 08:08 PM
Hi Bladers,

I was just wanting to ask, where does water baptism fit in, with regards to recieving the holy spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit?


Thanks



First, Baptism (with) the holy Spirit does not happen at salvation. Baptism is when the Holy Spirit comes on us not in us.
Before salvation, Yes we sense the presence of the Holy Spirit when he begins to convict us, but when we surrender to Jesus. He comes in and dwells.
I like saying it as Jesus said it. He said: "He is with you, Shall be in you, then later shall come upon you"

1) With you - The Holy Spirit is with you before salvation to convict you. (John 14:17)
2) In you - He comes in you at salvation to indwell, and to seal you. (John 20:22/Eph 1:13)
3) Upon you - He comes upon you to empower you, for service (Acts 1:8)

Bladers
Jul 28th 2009, 08:14 PM
But then, Jesus was talking specifically to his Apostles, commanding them to go to Jerusalem. How do you then apply this to others?


Jesus spoke to the apostles not to you! We must diferentiate between the different callings. The apostles were to spread the gospel with "Power" for the Jews to see the signs as prophecised by Joel. We are not Jews we are Gentiles. We are baptised "BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST" The Spirit doing the baptising here no water! See also 1Cor1:14 -18. How does that compare to the apostles in Jerusalem?

Peter referred to what happened on pentecost and said, This is what was spoken by the Prophet Joel. But if you look in the OT you will find something amazing. Two prophecies stood out to me. God promised the indwelling of the Spirit, He promised to put his Spirit in us. The reason he gave this promise is to cause his people to walk in his Law.

The second promise was that of Joel, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

Take note that Joel said on you not in you, and poured out on not put in. Which is why the Book of Acts talks about the Holy Spirit falling on people.

Two separate promises.

Then Peter later said, "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call." (Act 2:26)

That is why you read that the Holy Ghost was falling on people left and right in the Book of acts. The promise was not just for the apostles or the NT church. It is for every christian. The last day started when Jesus ascended to Heaven.

Now if i walked into a church, like a baptist church for example.
If i told the elders that i have cancer, pray for me to be healed.
They will look at me like i'm crazy and send me away.
That is how powerless the church of a so-called Limitless All-Powerful Eternal God has become!

Eben
Jul 28th 2009, 09:11 PM
Bladers I think you are referring to Peter and not Paul. Please explain to me which Baptism Paul was speaking about in Ephesians and Collosians when he speaks of the ONE BAPTISM. Is it not the baptism of 1 Cor 12 v 13 where the Spirit is doing the work? Isnt that why Paul says in 1Cor1 v 14 - 17 I thank God I only baptised etc. He says that baptism is a hindrance to the cross.

Bladers
Jul 28th 2009, 09:14 PM
Bladers I think you are referring to Peter and not Paul. Please explain to me which Baptism Paul was speaking about in Ephesians and Collosians when he speaks of the ONE BAPTISM. Is it not the baptism of 1 Cor 12 v 13 where the Spirit is doing the work? Isnt that why Paul says in 1Cor1 v 14 - 17 I thank God I only baptised etc. He says that baptism is a hindrance to the cross.

Sorry i meant peter but there are three different baptism. There is Baptism into the name of the Lord (By Water), Baptism into the Body of Christ (By the Spirit), Baptism with the Holy Spirit (By Jesus)

Eben
Jul 28th 2009, 09:23 PM
Bladers as an afterthought it seems you believe in the power of healing that is preached in so many movements today. Please explain the following to me:

ct 19:11 God was performing unusual miracles through Paul.
Act 19:12 Even handkerchiefs and aprons he had used were taken to the sick, and their diseases were driven away, and the evil spirits would go out of them.

Here Paul had the wonderfull gift so that even his hankerchiefs were taken to the sick and they were healed.

2Ti 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus in Miletus, because he was sick

Now he left Trophimus behind sick. What happened?
Could you please explain.

Bladers
Jul 28th 2009, 09:29 PM
Bladers as an afterthought it seems you believe in the power of healing that is preached in so many movements today. Please explain the following to me:

ct 19:11 God was performing unusual miracles through Paul.
Act 19:12 Even handkerchiefs and aprons he had used were taken to the sick, and their diseases were driven away, and the evil spirits would go out of them.

Here Paul had the wonderfull gift so that even his hankerchiefs were taken to the sick and they were healed.

2Ti 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus in Miletus, because he was sick

Now he left Trophimus behind sick. What happened?
Could you please explain.


I believe in God and God has the power to heal, He has not changed. The bible talks about the power of god was present to heal.

Seems to me that you believe in cessationsim, there is a thread about that going on right now.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=182950
But lets stick to the topic of baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Bladers
Jul 28th 2009, 09:31 PM
Bladers as an afterthought it seems you believe in the power of healing that is preached in so many movements today. Please explain the following to me:

ct 19:11 God was performing unusual miracles through Paul.
Act 19:12 Even handkerchiefs and aprons he had used were taken to the sick, and their diseases were driven away, and the evil spirits would go out of them.

Here Paul had the wonderfull gift so that even his hankerchiefs were taken to the sick and they were healed.

2Ti 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus in Miletus, because he was sick

Now he left Trophimus behind sick. What happened?
Could you please explain.


I believe in God and God has the power to heal, He has not changed. The bible talks about the power of god was present to heal.

Seems to me that you believe in cessationsim and from your profile it seems to me you were taught it from here (http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/), there is a thread about that going on right now.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=182950
But lets stick to the topic on baptism with the Holy Spirit.

chad
Jul 29th 2009, 12:42 AM
Hi Bladers,

I just wanted to ask, if there is a need for water baptism?

If by faith we associate with Jesus death and ressurection, what does baptism by water into Jesus name do?

We know the scriptures say, that when we are baptized we associate with jesus death and ressurection (water), but don't we already do that in faith, when we believe that Jesus died for our sins and was raised?

So what is the difference between our faith association with christ jesus death and ressurection, and the act of water baptism association with christ jesus death and ressurection.


Thanks.


Sorry i meant peter but there are three different baptism. There is Baptism into the name of the Lord (By Water), Baptism into the Body of Christ (By the Spirit), Baptism with the Holy Spirit (By Jesus)

Butch5
Jul 29th 2009, 01:44 AM
The Baptism with fire is the judgment, when people are thrown into the lake of fire. Either Jesus baptizes you with the Holy Spirit and you end up in the next age with all the other members of his body, or he baptizes you with fire and you end up being destroyed.

That's an interpretation that I have heard, however I have not seen anyone give an intepretation from Scripture.

Bladers
Jul 29th 2009, 06:21 PM
Hi Bladers,

I just wanted to ask, if there is a need for water baptism?

If by faith we associate with Jesus death and ressurection, what does baptism by water into Jesus name do?

We know the scriptures say, that when we are baptized we associate with jesus death and ressurection (water), but don't we already do that in faith, when we believe that Jesus died for our sins and was raised?

So what is the difference between our faith association with christ jesus death and ressurection, and the act of water baptism association with christ jesus death and ressurection.


Thanks.

The difference is, You dont need to be baptized with water to make it to heaven. You dont need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit to make it to heaven either.
But you do need to be baptized into the body of christ to make it to heaven.

Alot of things have been said concerning water baptism and alot are being spoken as i type, in the recently heated topic on 'does water save'.
So i'm not going to lay any other foundation than what has already been said.

But you do need to be baptized with the Spirit to live an Empowered Life as an effective Witness of the Gospel.

BroRog
Jul 30th 2009, 12:49 AM
That's an interpretation that I have heard, however I have not seen anyone give an intepretation from Scripture.

Really? John specifies that the fire is the judgment in the very next verse. :)

In Luke's Gospel we read,

John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Luke 3:16-17

Butch5
Jul 30th 2009, 01:42 AM
Really? John specifies that the fire is the judgment in the very next verse. :)

In Luke's Gospel we read,

John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Luke 3:16-17

So then it is the unbelievers who get baptized with fire? Could John also mean that the fire represents trials, (He will gather the wheat and burn the chaff)?