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menJesus
Jul 28th 2009, 11:22 AM
We`ve all read - or know - the story of David killing Goliath, with a sling and a rock.

But there are two places in Scripture where it states someone else killed Goliath.

Can someone clarify this for me? Why does it state two different people?

Thanks in advance.

blessedmommyuv3
Jul 28th 2009, 11:28 AM
Could you please post those scriptures--so that we can go and read and then respond?

Thank you, :)
Jen

daughter
Jul 28th 2009, 11:32 AM
I think this is a translation issue. Textus Receptus says that it was Goliath's brother who was killed by someone else, and I believe there are many ancient documents that agree with this translation. More modern translations rely on "corrected" versions, which is why they don't say "the brother of Goliath."

However, even without that word, it should be obvious that there are various explanations. One explanation could be that Goliath is a family name. Another could be that it's a generic term for a warrior giant.

But personally, I find that this is an instance where KJV gets it right. (I'm not a KJV only person, so nobody jump up and down on me, okay?)

-SEEKING-
Jul 28th 2009, 12:52 PM
But personally, I find that this is an instance where KJV gets it right. (I'm not a KJV only person, so nobody jump up and down on me, okay?)

This is as close to jumping up and down as I could find. :pp

:P

BroRog
Jul 28th 2009, 02:40 PM
Is Goliath of Gath the same as Goliath the Gittite? Sounds like two different men with the same name.

Slug1
Jul 28th 2009, 03:05 PM
We`ve all read - or know - the story of David killing Goliath, with a sling and a rock.
FYI - so you have it correct. David didn't kill Goliath with a sling and a stone... the stone rendered Goliath unconscous and David took the giant's own sword and killed him with it.

markedward
Jul 28th 2009, 06:07 PM
Is Goliath of Gath the same as Goliath the Gittite? Sounds like two different men with the same name.A Gittite is someone from Gath.

Like a Frenchman is from France.

markedward
Jul 28th 2009, 06:21 PM
There are three passages in Scripture describing someone being killed, alongside the name "Goliath".

1 Samuel 17.50: David kills Goliath.

2 Samuel 21.19: Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite kills Goliath.

1 Chronicles 20.5: Elhanan the son of Jair kills Lahmi the brother of Goliath.

The latter two verses, in context, clearly refer to the same events, but if you notice the words I've colored above, there are words that do specifically align between the verses (Jaare with Jair, and Bethlehemite with Lahmi), though they are translated differently. It's a given that the text in 2 Samuel 21.19 does read "the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite", but I think the account in 1 Chronicles 20.5 proves that 2 Samuel 21.19 is an unfortunate cased of "scribal error", where the text was garbled up by one scribe, and the scribes after him copied his blunder. 1 Chronicles 20.5 contains the accurate rendering of the text, and hence, there isn't a contradiction between the three texts: David killed Goliath, Elhanan killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath.

BrckBrln
Jul 28th 2009, 06:44 PM
Here's the ESV Study Bible note on 2 Samuel 21:19:

'Since in 1 Samuel 17 David killed Goliath of Gath (“Gittite” means someone from Gath), this statement has caused endless controversy. (1) Some say that the deed of Elhanan was later attributed to David, or that the name “Goliath” only later became attached to David's victim, but these interpretations would deny the truthfulness of 1 Samuel 17, and other solutions are preferable. (2) Based on the parallel passage in 1 Chron. 20:5, some think that “Lahmi the brother of” has been deleted from the text before “Goliath” in this verse, and given some of the challenges encountered in establishing the original text of 1–2 Samuel (see Introduction to 1–2 Samuel: Text), this is a distinct possibility. (3) Another suggestion is that the passages refer to two different men named Goliath. Because there are so many duplicate names in the OT, this is also a possibility. (4) A final suggestion, similar to the third solution, is that “Goliath” was a common noun for a giant, just as “Achish” (1 Sam. 21:10; 27:2) may have been a title or common noun for a Philistine ruler (just as “Pharaoh” is a title of the king of Egypt, not a name). There is therefore no conflict in saying that both David and Elhanan killed [a] “Goliath.” The name “Goliath” is traceable back to the non-Semitic Anatolian name Walwatta, and the name has been found in an early Philistine inscription.'

And here's what Kenton Sparks says:

'When the Hebrew Chronicler saw that Goliath was killed by both David and Elhanan in the book of Samuel (cf. 1 Sam. 17; 2 Sam. 21:19), he solved this contradiction by having Elhanan defeat "Lahmi, the brother of Goliath" (1 Chron. 20:5).'

menJesus
Jul 29th 2009, 11:03 AM
Thank you, BrckBrln and markedward. Your answers are what I was seeking for.

Slug, what leads you to believe Goliath was not killed with a stone? I thought cutting off Goliath`s head was for proof of his death, and a trophy for the killer...

Thanks, all.

Slug1
Jul 29th 2009, 12:43 PM
Thank you, BrckBrln and markedward. Your answers are what I was seeking for.

Slug, what leads you to believe Goliath was not killed with a stone? I thought cutting off Goliath`s head was for proof of his death, and a trophy for the killer...

Thanks, all.I know the scripture says slew him in v50 and then again in v51. Kill him twice? David struck him with the sword to kill Goliath and then cut the head off. If he was dead, why do the killing stroke 1st and not just retrieve the head :hmm:

When I read that I wondered why the multiple "deaths" of Goliath? Did the stone kill him or the sword stroke? What does this mean spiritually?

For me, it shows me the need to follow through, so many Christian's battle satan, gain a victory (David knocking down Goliath) but don't follow through (David killing Goliath) and wonder why they are continually battling and struggling against satan over the same thing. Maybe cause they don't follow the example David set in killing Goliath by following through even though a foe (struggle) is knocked down and rendered inop.

Steve M
Jul 30th 2009, 12:53 PM
Here's the ESV Study Bible note on 2 Samuel 21:19:

'Since in 1 Samuel 17 David killed Goliath of Gath (“Gittite” means someone from Gath), this statement has caused endless controversy. (1) Some say that the deed of Elhanan was later attributed to David, or that the name “Goliath” only later became attached to David's victim, but these interpretations would deny the truthfulness of 1 Samuel 17, and other solutions are preferable. (2) Based on the parallel passage in 1 Chron. 20:5, some think that “Lahmi the brother of” has been deleted from the text before “Goliath” in this verse, and given some of the challenges encountered in establishing the original text of 1–2 Samuel (see Introduction to 1–2 Samuel: Text), this is a distinct possibility. (3) Another suggestion is that the passages refer to two different men named Goliath. Because there are so many duplicate names in the OT, this is also a possibility. (4) A final suggestion, similar to the third solution, is that “Goliath” was a common noun for a giant, just as “Achish” (1 Sam. 21:10; 27:2) may have been a title or common noun for a Philistine ruler (just as “Pharaoh” is a title of the king of Egypt, not a name). There is therefore no conflict in saying that both David and Elhanan killed [a] “Goliath.” The name “Goliath” is traceable back to the non-Semitic Anatolian name Walwatta, and the name has been found in an early Philistine inscription.'

And here's what Kenton Sparks says:

'When the Hebrew Chronicler saw that Goliath was killed by both David and Elhanan in the book of Samuel (cf. 1 Sam. 17; 2 Sam. 21:19), he solved this contradiction by having Elhanan defeat "Lahmi, the brother of Goliath" (1 Chron. 20:5).'
http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/who-killed-goliath-david-or-elhanan

Carm points out that in the original language the difference between the two passages is more slight than in our own language.

menJesus
Jul 31st 2009, 11:59 AM
Oh, Slug, what a beautiful answer! :)