PDA

View Full Version : Ezekiel's Temple -- HELP!!!



Equipped_4_Love
Aug 6th 2009, 04:36 AM
Okay...So I'm trying to make sense of the whole temple vision of Ezekiel. Obviously, this isn't going to be a Millennial temple, as some articles on the internet say, because that would seem to run contrary to other Scripture, and the fact that it talks about sin offerings being sacrificed, well since Christ is our sacrifice, I don't see how this can be literal.

So, then, what is the purpose of this vision, and what does it really signify? The fact that it has literal dimensions seems to speak of more than a spiritual significance, but it seems like it's talking about a literal temple, so then, when is it supposed to be built?

Can anyone offer any help at all? I would like some context, so that I can read this with a little more clarity, but it's just confusing to me.

Also, the passages about Gog and Megog -- It appears that God already had some sort of a beef with these nations, so He causes them to rise up against Israel to glorify Himself when they are defeated. Again, I don;t want to make this into an End Times Chat thread -- I would just like to know what it is that I'm reading.

Thanks so much!!!

nzyr
Aug 6th 2009, 04:42 AM
I'm not sure but a new temple may be built during the thousand year rein of Christ. Or maybe even after. Or Ezekiel's vision may be of the new Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation chapter 21.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 6th 2009, 04:44 AM
I'm not sure but a new temple may be built during the thousand year rein of Christ. Or maybe even after. Or Ezekiel's vision may be of the new Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation chapter 21.

I don;t see how this can be referring to that, because as I said, it's talking about an altar for sin sacrifice, and we all know that Christ is our sacrifice. This would make no sense.

Sirus
Aug 6th 2009, 04:52 AM
I don;t see how this can be referring to that, because as I said, it's talking about an altar for sin sacrifice, and we all know that Christ is our sacrifice. This would make no sense.Did the sacrifices in the law forgive?

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 6th 2009, 05:07 AM
I'm sorry sirus -- I don't understand.

No, from my understanding, they were just a temporary covering....but what does this have to do with the vision of Ezekiel? If Christ is our sacrifice, then why would we even need a covering?

Desperaux
Aug 6th 2009, 05:29 AM
Okay...So I'm trying to make sense of the whole temple vision of Ezekiel. Obviously, this isn't going to be a Millennial temple, as some articles on the internet say, because that would seem to run contrary to other Scripture, and the fact that it talks about sin offerings being sacrificed, well since Christ is our sacrifice, I don't see how this can be literal.

So, then, what is the purpose of this vision, and what does it really signify? The fact that it has literal dimensions seems to speak of more than a spiritual significance, but it seems like it's talking about a literal temple, so then, when is it supposed to be built?

Can anyone offer any help at all? I would like some context, so that I can read this with a little more clarity, but it's just confusing to me.

Also, the passages about Gog and Megog -- It appears that God already had some sort of a beef with these nations, so He causes them to rise up against Israel to glorify Himself when they are defeated. Again, I don;t want to make this into an End Times Chat thread -- I would just like to know what it is that I'm reading.

Thanks so much!!!

The sacrificial system will be revived during the Tribulation, when God is turning His attention to Israel while the Church is absent. There will be a third temple built. In fact, they have already got a pre-fab temple ready to go at a moment's notice.

Matthehitmanhart
Aug 6th 2009, 06:01 AM
Okay...So I'm trying to make sense of the whole temple vision of Ezekiel. Obviously, this isn't going to be a Millennial temple, as some articles on the internet say, because that would seem to run contrary to other Scripture, and the fact that it talks about sin offerings being sacrificed, well since Christ is our sacrifice, I don't see how this can be literal.

So, then, what is the purpose of this vision, and what does it really signify? The fact that it has literal dimensions seems to speak of more than a spiritual significance, but it seems like it's talking about a literal temple, so then, when is it supposed to be built?

Can anyone offer any help at all? I would like some context, so that I can read this with a little more clarity, but it's just confusing to me.

Also, the passages about Gog and Megog -- It appears that God already had some sort of a beef with these nations, so He causes them to rise up against Israel to glorify Himself when they are defeated. Again, I don;t want to make this into an End Times Chat thread -- I would just like to know what it is that I'm reading.

Thanks so much!!!

There has been a lot of good dialog on this question recently, most notably here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=180929) and here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=183063). Both of these are excellent threads with tons of good insights. You should check them out!

TEITZY
Aug 6th 2009, 12:06 PM
I'm sorry sirus -- I don't understand.

No, from my understanding, they were just a temporary covering....but what does this have to do with the vision of Ezekiel? If Christ is our sacrifice, then why would we even need a covering?

Sirus hit the nail on the head.

The OT sacrifices could never 'take away' sin and therefore it will be the same with Millennial sacrifices, so the sacrifice of Christ is not diminished in any way, nor can it be replaced by these sacrifices. However those who serve and come to worship at the temple will still be sinners and so I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that sacrifices could function to 'cover' the ceremonial uncleanness of the priests and worshippers. The word "atonement" in its simplest form simply means "to cover". So while these 'covering' sacrifices will not be efficacious they will still be necessary for undefiled worship in the millennial temple.

Cheers
Leigh

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2009, 12:20 PM
the whole temple vision of Ezekiel. Obviously, this isn't going to be a Millennial temple, as some articles on the internet say, because that would seem to run contrary to other Scripture

So, then, what is the purpose of this vision, and what does it really signify?

Ezekiel said it was a conditional blueprint of what the Israelites returning from Assyrian/Babylonian captivity could have had, if they would have remained faithful.

Ezek 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof:



But God in His great Mercy, less than 600 years later, provided an even better temple...one Made Without Hands, that would never fail and would last forevermore!! Stone buildings made with hands for sacrifice ended forevermore.

Mark 14:58 I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2009, 12:24 PM
:bounce:
However those who serve and come to worship at the temple will still be sinners and so I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that sacrifices could function to 'cover' the ceremonial uncleanness of the priests and worshippers. So while these 'covering' sacrifices will not be efficacious they will still be necessary for undefiled worship


Are you Jewish?

Sounds like you are expecting a return to the practice of ancient, orthodox Judaism.
:confused

TEITZY
Aug 6th 2009, 01:01 PM
:bounce:

Are you Jewish?

Sounds like you are expecting a return to the practice of ancient, orthodox Judaism.
:confused

You make it sound like a crime :rolleyes:

God implemented these things under the old covenant as part of the law and so while they were only pictures or types of the ultimate sacrifice, they are not bad or evil and still hold some value as far as God is concerned. Furthermore the nature of the kingdom is decidedly Jewish, so the return of some of these practices and feasts is hardly surprising.

Cheers
Leigh

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2009, 01:06 PM
Are you Jewish?

Sounds like you are expecting a return to the practice of ancient, orthodox Judaism.
:confusedYou make it sound like a crime :rolleyes:



What part of my question made it sound like a crime?

From your prior post, that's what it sounded like to me...just asking a curious question.

Johnboy
Aug 6th 2009, 01:44 PM
Okay...So I'm trying to make sense of the whole temple vision of Ezekiel. Obviously, this isn't going to be a Millennial temple, as some articles on the internet say, because that would seem to run contrary to other Scripture, and the fact that it talks about sin offerings being sacrificed, well since Christ is our sacrifice, I don't see how this can be literal.

So, then, what is the purpose of this vision, and what does it really signify? The fact that it has literal dimensions seems to speak of more than a spiritual significance, but it seems like it's talking about a literal temple, so then, when is it supposed to be built?

Can anyone offer any help at all? I would like some context, so that I can read this with a little more clarity, but it's just confusing to me.

Also, the passages about Gog and Megog -- It appears that God already had some sort of a beef with these nations, so He causes them to rise up against Israel to glorify Himself when they are defeated. Again, I don;t want to make this into an End Times Chat thread -- I would just like to know what it is that I'm reading.

Thanks so much!!!
What were the sacrifices about 1. the show forth Christ 2. they were a very visual reminder to show those that were offering that they could not do it on their own. 3. They were part of the law of the land

In the 1000 year reign of Christ the world will need to re educated about Christ, reminded that they are reliant on God, and will need a structured law. So the sacrifices I think make perfect sense.

With Gog and Magog you are looking at the time nearing to Armageddon when the army of the north will come against Israel and Christ will return triumphant.

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2009, 02:14 PM
In the 1000 year reign of Christ the world will need to re educated about Christ, reminded that they are reliant on God, and will need a structured law. So the sacrifices I think make perfect sense.


So are you saying stop following the superior guidance of the Bible and the Holy Spirit, which has been handling all of that instruction the last 2,000 yrs, and revert back to the inferior types and shadows that once pointed forward to Christ?

Why not just continue following the examples, precepts, and teachings of the better New Covenant that replaced the Old Covenant, that waxed old and vanished away?

Sounds like you're suggesting that after Christ Returns to Earth, we'll turn off Christianity, and go back to Judaism again.

:confused How does that make perfect sense?

moonglow
Aug 6th 2009, 02:32 PM
So are you saying stop following the superior guidance of the Bible and the Holy Spirit, which has been handling all of that instruction the last 2,000 yrs, and revert back to the inferior types and shadows that once pointed forward to Christ?

Why not just continue following the examples, precepts, and teachings of the better New Covenant that replaced the Old Covenant, that waxed old and vanished away?

Sounds like you're suggesting that after Christ Returns to Earth, we'll turn off Christianity, and go back to Judaism again.

:confused How does that make perfect sense?

Having been in these discussions before (which I am sure you have too) its absolutely amazing how many believe animal sacrifices will start up again totally and completely igoring the 'conditions' God gave regarding this to start with.

What an insult to God to start animal sacrifices again! This would be telling Him what His Son did meant nothing! Wasn't good enough!

Hebrews 10

Animal Sacrifices Insufficient

1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:


“ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”



8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2009, 02:56 PM
“Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

...Then as some predict, He will re-establish the first again, at His Second Coming?

Wow. As the Sicilian would say, "inconceivable!"

nzyr
Aug 6th 2009, 04:03 PM
The sacrificial system will be revived during the Tribulation, when God is turning His attention to Israel while the Church is absent. There will be a third temple built. In fact, they have already got a pre-fab temple ready to go at a moment's notice.
I don't believe Ezekiel is talking about a tribulation temple. I believe he is talking about the millennium. And maybe even the new Jerusalem.

moonglow
Aug 6th 2009, 04:10 PM
...Then as some predict, He will re-establish the first again, at His Second Coming?

Wow. As the Sicilian would say, "inconceivable!"

It is because there is nothing in the bible to suggest such a thing will happen...

Desperaux
Aug 6th 2009, 06:29 PM
So are you saying stop following the superior guidance of the Bible and the Holy Spirit, which has been handling all of that instruction the last 2,000 yrs, and revert back to the inferior types and shadows that once pointed forward to Christ?

Why not just continue following the examples, precepts, and teachings of the better New Covenant that replaced the Old Covenant, that waxed old and vanished away?

Sounds like you're suggesting that after Christ Returns to Earth, we'll turn off Christianity, and go back to Judaism again.

:confused How does that make perfect sense?


The Jews will return to the sacrificial system after the Rapture and before the coming of the King.

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2009, 07:41 PM
The Jews will return to the sacrificial system after the Rapture and before the coming of the King.

And if they choose to turn to the animal sacrifical system again, they will remain just as lost in sin then, as they are now.



The Jews only hope, is not to turn to animal sacrifical systems, but rather is to REPENT and turn to JESUS CHRIST, as Peter their brother told them to do long ago!


The Apostle Peter taught,
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Desperaux
Aug 6th 2009, 07:51 PM
It is through such a time as will come, that the Jew will discover the Messiah once and for all. It is all part of God's plan for them. He isn't done yet.

Beckrl
Aug 6th 2009, 09:14 PM
If one would only look at the dimensions of Ezekiel's temple and all of history of the temples only Solomon's comes close. The New Jerusalem has no temple for the Lord God and the Lamb are the temple.

I take Ezekiel's vision of one that is of God's tabernacle (dwellingplace).
Ezekiel's vision isn't only of a temple, but a city.


Ezekiel 37:
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle (dwellingplace)also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

These passages point to Jesus as the servant David, which will be the sancification of Israel, for the name of the city is "The Lord there"

Beck

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2009, 09:49 PM
It is through such a time as will come, that the Jew will discover the Messiah once and for all. It is all part of God's plan for them. He isn't done yet.

They will come to Messiah, according to Peter, by repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.....

....not by returning to animal sacrifices...(that's the wrong direction God, and the wrong way to salvation that God has provided).



"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" I Peter 1:18

Desperaux
Aug 6th 2009, 09:50 PM
They will come to Messiah, according to Peter, by repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.....

....not by returning to animal sacrifices...(that's the wrong direction God, and the wrong way to salvation that God has provided).



"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" I Peter 1:18




Yes! They will come to Jesus Christ! In the meantime, God will be dealing with them as they were before the cross.

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2009, 10:32 PM
Yes! They will come to Jesus Christ! In the meantime, God will be dealing with them as they were before the cross.

Nope....the cross is the only way anyone will ever be dealt with.




We're talking Christianity here, not Hassidic Judaism.




I Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

Desperaux
Aug 6th 2009, 10:40 PM
Nope....the cross is the only way anyone will ever be dealt with.




We're talking Christianity here, not Hassidic Judaism.




I Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

That is right! The cross!

God has it all in hand for His people in the Tribulation time.

Johnboy
Aug 6th 2009, 10:54 PM
Having been in these discussions before (which I am sure you have too) its absolutely amazing how many believe animal sacrifices will start up again totally and completely igoring the 'conditions' God gave regarding this to start with.

What an insult to God to start animal sacrifices again! This would be telling Him what His Son did meant nothing! Wasn't good enough!

Hebrews 10

Animal Sacrifices Insufficient

1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:


“ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”



8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
I am not saying the sacrifices will be for sin offering but for re education for those who do not know what it was all about.

kay-gee
Aug 6th 2009, 10:59 PM
Yes! They will come to Jesus Christ! In the meantime, God will be dealing with them as they were before the cross.

Many make this claim. Where is the Biblical support for it?

Why are they any more likely to accept now then they were the first time? All that is needed is the GOSPEL and that was delivered by the apostles 2000 years ago! Do you think God made some error in judgement when He interjected into human history when He did? He had to way lay His plan because of unbelief?

Think about it!!!

all the best...

Desperaux
Aug 6th 2009, 11:11 PM
Many make this claim. Where is the Biblical support for it?

Why are they any more likely to accept now then they were the first time? All that is needed is the GOSPEL and that was delivered by the apostles 2000 years ago! Do you think God made some error in judgement when He interjected into human history when He did? He had to way lay His plan because of unbelief?

Think about it!!!

all the best...

Yes, think about it. He loves Israel with a passion.

kay-gee
Aug 7th 2009, 12:36 AM
Yes, think about it. He loves Israel with a passion.

Loves them so much that He has to re-work His original plan?? I'm confused!

all the best...

Me inhim
Aug 7th 2009, 12:49 AM
So are you saying stop following the superior guidance of the Bible and the Holy Spirit, which has been handling all of that instruction the last 2,000 yrs, and revert back to the inferior types and shadows that once pointed forward to Christ?

Why not just continue following the examples, precepts, and teachings of the better New Covenant that replaced the Old Covenant, that waxed old and vanished away?

Sounds like you're suggesting that after Christ Returns to Earth, we'll turn off Christianity, and go back to Judaism again.

:confused How does that make perfect sense?

David.

Sorry, but i think some people dont understand/believe that Jesus is the LAMB sent by God as a final sacrifice and Atonement for sin.

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 12:50 AM
Ezekiel said it was a conditional blueprint of what the Israelites returning from Assyrian/Babylonian captivity could have had, if they would have remained faithful.

Ezek 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof:



But God in His great Mercy, less than 600 years later, provided an even better temple...one Made Without Hands, that would never fail and would last forevermore!! Stone buildings made with hands for sacrifice ended forevermore.

Mark 14:58 I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.Here is the same house found in chapter 43.
Eze 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
..........
.....
Tell us then, how has this been fulfilled.
Eze 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
Eze 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Eze 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
Eze 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
Eze 47:10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
Eze 47:11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Eze 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
Eze 47:14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
Eze 47:15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
Eze 47:16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
Eze 47:17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
Eze 47:18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
Eze 47:19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
Eze 47:20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
Eze 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.
Or are you suggesting it will not?

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 12:54 AM
David.

Sorry, but i think some people dont understand/believe that Jesus is the LAMB sent by God as a final sacrifice and Atonement for sin. No one has said that. If you have something constructive to say, do so.

Me inhim
Aug 7th 2009, 12:57 AM
And if they choose to turn to the animal sacrifical system again, they will remain just as lost in sin then, as they are now.



The Jews only hope, is not to turn to animal sacrifical systems, but rather is to REPENT and turn to JESUS CHRIST, as Peter their brother told them to do long ago!


The Apostle Peter taught,
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Save yourselves from this untoward generation.



David.

I agree with u 10000%.

The jews have to accept the NEW TESTAMENT and repent and also accept that Jesus is the MESSIAH, SON OF GOD AND THE LAMB!!
God is not going to do a U TURN for the Jews!!
ONLY THRU JESUS CAN MAN BE SAVED! NO OTHER WAY!

BLESSINGS AND WISDOM TO ALL.

John

Johnboy
Aug 7th 2009, 12:58 AM
Here is the same house found in chapter 43.
Eze 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
..........
.....
Tell us then, how has this been fulfilled.
Eze 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
Eze 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Eze 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
Eze 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
Eze 47:10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
Eze 47:11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Eze 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
Eze 47:14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
Eze 47:15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
Eze 47:16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
Eze 47:17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
Eze 47:18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
Eze 47:19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
Eze 47:20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
Eze 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.
Or are you suggesting it will not?
Oh it will happen when God says "It shall come to pass"

Me inhim
Aug 7th 2009, 01:01 AM
No one has said that. If you have something constructive to say, do so.

I'm saying David made a good point in his post about the old system.

Johnboy
Aug 7th 2009, 01:06 AM
Loves them so much that He has to re-work His original plan?? I'm confused!

all the best...

Re work which plan. God's plan has always been through Abraham. Has never changed.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 01:09 AM
There has been a lot of good dialog on this question recently, most notably here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=180929) and here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=183063). Both of these are excellent threads with tons of good insights. You should check them out!

Thank you.

I don't really agree with the idea that this vision will be fulfilled in the Tribulation, because of the verse that talks about the presence of God dwelling in this temple.

I don't believe that God's presence will dwell in the future rebuilt temple, because it is not God's temple, although I'm sure many will think His presence is there.

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 01:09 AM
David.

I agree with u 10000%.

The jews have to accept the NEW TESTAMENT and repent and also accept that Jesus is the MESSIAH, SON OF GOD AND THE LAMB!!
God is not going to do a U TURN for the Jews!!
ONLY THRU JESUS CAN MAN BE SAVED! NO OTHER WAY!

BLESSINGS AND WISDOM TO ALL.

John
That's right, and no one here has said any different! ;)

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 01:22 AM
Ezekiel said it was a conditional blueprint of what the Israelites returning from Assyrian/Babylonian captivity could have had, if they would have remained faithful.

Ezek 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof:



But God in His great Mercy, less than 600 years later, provided an even better temple...one Made Without Hands, that would never fail and would last forevermore!! Stone buildings made with hands for sacrifice ended forevermore.

Mark 14:58 I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


This sounds like the best explanation yet -- but I am still trying to figure out, the layout and description is so precise. What is the significance of giving such a detailed description of something that would not come to pass?

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 01:25 AM
In the 1000 year reign of Christ the world will need to re educated about Christ, reminded that they are reliant on God, and will need a structured law. So the sacrifices I think make perfect sense.

Why do you think that the world will need to be re-educated about Christ, when Christ will be in their midst?

Johnboy
Aug 7th 2009, 01:28 AM
David.

I agree with u 10000%.

The jews have to accept the NEW TESTAMENT and repent and also accept that Jesus is the MESSIAH, SON OF GOD AND THE LAMB!!
God is not going to do a U TURN for the Jews!!
ONLY THRU JESUS CAN MAN BE SAVED! NO OTHER WAY!

BLESSINGS AND WISDOM TO ALL.

John
I know I am going to sound silly but isn't Christ a jew???? You know the seed promised to Abraham father of the jews. Yes they have to accept Christ as their king. But there is no u turn this is what the jews were meant to learn from the sacrifices (and many did) that they could not save themselves. We have been given the opportunity to join in through baptism but the jews are still God's people

Luke 21 v 24 (sword:///Luke%2021:24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 01:30 AM
If one would only look at the dimensions of Ezekiel's temple and all of history of the temples only Solomon's comes close. The New Jerusalem has no temple for the Lord God and the Lamb are the temple.

I take Ezekiel's vision of one that is of God's tabernacle (dwellingplace).
Ezekiel's vision isn't only of a temple, but a city.


Ezekiel 37:
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle (dwellingplace)also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

These passages point to Jesus as the servant David, which will be the sancification of Israel, for the name of the city is "The Lord there"

Beck

Yes, but this passage is no doubt referring to the future reign of Christ, correct? The fact that the term evermore and everlasting occurs several times.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 01:33 AM
David.

Sorry, but i think some people dont understand/believe that Jesus is the LAMB sent by God as a final sacrifice and Atonement for sin.


Ya -- I'm really surprised at how many responses there are arguing that animal sacrifices will be re-instated during the Millennium. Honestly, I had never even heard of that theory.

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 02:02 AM
Oh it will happen when God says "It shall come to pass"That's the point, and the point of my first post. I don't believe Jesus is going to appear to Israel one day and say "surprise!". I believe the God of Israel as seen in the OT steps in to protect them and there is a 'spiritual' renewal wherein they return to the sacrifices. Ezekiel 40-48 is Israel's restoration and it is not finished, yet. This doesn't mean continuing sacrifices for sin after the revelation of Christ.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 02:04 AM
Could we stay on topic, please?!

I started this post because I'm seriously seeking insight, and this topic is going way off!!!

Can someone please respond to the questions that I addressed above?!

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 02:05 AM
who is off topic?

Johnboy
Aug 7th 2009, 02:05 AM
That's the point, and the point of my first post. I don't believe Jesus is going to appear to Israel one day and say "surprise!". I believe the God of Israel as seen in the OT steps in to protect them and there is a 'spiritual' renewal wherein they return to the sacrifices. Ezekiel 40-48 is Israel's restoration and it is not finished, yet. This doesn't mean continuing sacrifices for sin after the revelation of Christ.
can't argue with that

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 02:06 AM
who is off topic?


YOU GUYS, THAT'S WHO!!!

It's pretty pathetic that I was the one who started this topic, and now I am being all but ignored.

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 02:08 AM
Yes, but this passage is no doubt referring to the future reign of Christ, correct? The fact that the term evermore and everlasting occurs several times.It's not the house referred to in chapters 40-48.

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 02:09 AM
YOU GUYS, THAT'S WHO!!!

It's pretty pathetic that I was the one who started this topic, and now I am being all but ignored.How so? We are not off topic and you are not being ignored.

Johnboy
Aug 7th 2009, 02:09 AM
Could we stay on topic, please?!

I started this post because I'm seriously seeking insight, and this topic is going way off!!!

Can someone please respond to the questions that I addressed above?!
I did reply to the original thread maybe you did not read it or did not agree with it

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 02:12 AM
Ya -- I'm really surprised at how many responses there are arguing that animal sacrifices will be re-instated during the Millennium. Honestly, I had never even heard of that theory.
As far as I can tell only one person has stated this.

TEITZY
Aug 7th 2009, 02:14 AM
Ya -- I'm really surprised at how many responses there are arguing that animal sacrifices will be re-instated during the Millennium. Honestly, I had never even heard of that theory.

It's not a theory, it's just basic hermeneutics. If you believe these prophecies will be fulfilled literally then there can be no doubt that animal sacrifices will be offered in the Millennium. Of course this view is perfectly consistent with other OT prophesies which were literally fulfilled in every detail. Spiritualizing these passages simply creates rabbit trails that lead anywhere the interpreter wishes.

Cheers
Leigh

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 02:15 AM
You guys totally veered off into a topic that wasn't even related to the OP. It was about Ezekiel's temple, then you guys started talking about if Israel will come to Christ or not. Then, when I tried to continue in the original conversation, you guys were so innundated with your own converstaion that you didn't even acknowledge my questions.

I just get sick and tired of people getting wrapped up in their own little conversations or whatever that any attempt to stay on topic is ignored.

Oh, ya, and I did respond to your response, but you were so busy with your own discussion that you probably just didn't notice.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 02:17 AM
How so? We are not off topic and you are not being ignored.

Yes, you are, and yes, I was.

How many posts did I post----5.....and still, you wouldn't even take the time to respond to one single post until I got in your face about it.

Whatever....carry on.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 02:18 AM
As far as I can tell only one person has stated this.

I'm sorry -- I thought there were a few

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 02:27 AM
It's not a theory, it's just basic hermeneutics. If you believe these prophecies will be fulfilled literally then there can be no doubt that animal sacrifices will be offered in the Millennium. Of course this view is perfectly consistent with other OT prophesies which were literally fulfilled in every detail. Spiritualizing these passages simply creates rabbit trails that lead anywhere the interpreter wishes.

Cheers
Leigh


But, see, that's just it -- It's a complete dillemma, and I am having great trouble making sense of it. Either the prophecy is not fulfilled, and God's word returns void, or the prophecy is fulfilled, and contradicts the clear teaching of the NT about Christ's atoning sacrifice.

The only explanation that would seem to make sense to me is David Taylor's explanation that this vision was something that could have been....but then again, why would God give such a detailed description of something that merely "could have been?"

David Taylor
Aug 7th 2009, 02:28 AM
Yes, think about it. He loves Israel with a passion.

That's why He became the final sacrifice for Israel on the cross.

It is finished....for Israel just as much as it is for all the other nations.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 02:37 AM
That's why He became the final sacrifice for Israel on the cross.

It is finished....for Israel just as much as it is for all the other nations.


Can we PLEASE stay on topic?

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 02:38 AM
You guys totally veered off into a topic that wasn't even related to the OP. It was about Ezekiel's temple, then you guys started talking about if Israel will come to Christ or not. Then, when I tried to continue in the original conversation, you guys were so innundated with your own converstaion that you didn't even acknowledge my questions.

I just get sick and tired of people getting wrapped up in their own little conversations or whatever that any attempt to stay on topic is ignored.

Oh, ya, and I did respond to your response, but you were so busy with your own discussion that you probably just didn't notice.
No one has discussed if Israel will come to Christ.

Maybe I was refreshing my mind and spirit in the Ezekiel passages since this is something I haven't really looked at recently? My response to you was written minutes before I submitted it, because I was reading. I'm also a bit slow on the keyboard. Relax! Anyway....
I was attempting to share my opinion that.....
"Ezekiel 40-48 is Israel's restoration"
.....so there's no reason to assume everyone is suggesting sacrifices after they are restored AND know Jesus.....
....and there's no reason to assume they won't sacrifice again before they know Jesus.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 02:49 AM
No one has discussed if Israel will come to Christ.

Posts 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, etc, etc.


Maybe I was refreshing my mind and spirit in the Ezekiel passages since this is something I haven't really looked at recently? My response to you was written minutes before I submitted it, because I was reading. I'm also a bit slow on the keyboard. Relax! Anyway....
I was attempting to share my opinion that.....

"Ezekiel 40-48 is Israel's restoration"
.....so there's no reason to assume everyone is suggesting sacrifices after they are restored AND know Jesus.....
....and there's no reason to assume they won't sacrifice again before they know Jesus.

That makes sense, and I apologize if I got testy...I guess I just get frustrated sometimes.

I agree with what you're saying about the sacrifices, but I guess I'm having trouble understanding when and if this temple is to be rebuilt. The whole sacrifice issue totally contradicts the new covenant.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 03:03 AM
Also -- does anyone know why the animals were slain actually inside the temple that Ezekiel saw?

In Solomon's templw, weren't they slain outside the temple, then the sacrifice brought ionto the temple and placed on the altar?

Perhaps i am completely wrong.

Sirus
Aug 7th 2009, 03:04 AM
Posts 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, etc, etc.Ok, there is an "if" in post 20, but I don't think it is meant that they may never, because of post 23.


That makes sense, and I apologize if I got testy...I guess I just get frustrated sometimes.It's ok, join the club! :hug:



I agree with what you're saying about the sacrifices, but I guess I'm having trouble understanding when and if this temple is to be rebuilt. The whole sacrifice issue totally contradicts the new covenant.I think it will be rebuilt. I agree it contradicts the new covenant but that's my point, they won't be under the new covenant yet, which was the point of post 24.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2162933&postcount=24

TEITZY
Aug 7th 2009, 03:38 AM
But, see, that's just it -- It's a complete dillemma, and I am having great trouble making sense of it. Either the prophecy is not fulfilled, and God's word returns void, or the prophecy is fulfilled, and contradicts the clear teaching of the NT about Christ's atoning sacrifice.

The only explanation that would seem to make sense to me is David Taylor's explanation that this vision was something that could have been....but then again, why would God give such a detailed description of something that merely "could have been?"

Several of us have tried to make the point that there is nothing contradictory about the temple sacrifices and Christ's once for all atonement. We know animal sacrifices can never take away sin and it's clear that people (believers) during the Millennium will acknowledge that Christ is the Messiah and the one and only Saviour. These sacrifices don't undermine Christ's atonement, in fact they reinforce the priniciple that without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin. They also remind the offerers of their own sinfulness (Heb 10:3) in the presence of God.


Heb 10:19-22 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

James 4:8-9 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.


As believers we may come boldly before the throne of grace but as sinners there is still a need for cleansing if we want "draw near" to God. So if we want to draw near to God/Christ in prayer or through worship there must be cleansing (ie. confession of sin) and pure motives (a true heart). So if cleansing is necessary for us, how much more needful is it for sinners who enter into the PHYSICAL presence of the glorified Christ! So as a sinner coming into the actual presence of Christ, what better way to show your humility/contrition and true heart of worship than to offer a public sacrifice acknowledging your sinfulness and allegiance to the Lamb of God.

To be consistent, If this temple is literal, then so are the sacrifices.

Cheers
Leigh

kay-gee
Aug 7th 2009, 04:04 AM
Posts 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, etc, etc.



That makes sense, and I apologize if I got testy...I guess I just get frustrated sometimes.

I agree with what you're saying about the sacrifices, but I guess I'm having trouble understanding when and if this temple is to be rebuilt. The whole sacrifice issue totally contradicts the new covenant.

And since it contradicts NT, it is false and should be avoided...simple!

all the best...

Desperaux
Aug 7th 2009, 04:08 AM
Loves them so much that He has to re-work His original plan?? I'm confused!

all the best...

That is His original plan. People are forgetting that once the Lord comes for His Church, the Church age is over. The Gentile age has completed.

Eben
Aug 7th 2009, 06:39 AM
Remember that the Jews are still expecting there Mesaiha. To them Jesus was false. So therefore they still believe in sacrafices. Therefore the temple must be rebuild and sacrafices are to be offered. It is written therefore it shall be. It has not happened therefoe it is still in the future. Very simple if we understand the differences between the Kingdom on earth and the Body of Christ.

Johnboy
Aug 7th 2009, 01:42 PM
And since it contradicts NT, it is false and should be avoided...simple!

all the best...
Excellent use of the OT and NT there

John146
Aug 7th 2009, 02:07 PM
So are you saying stop following the superior guidance of the Bible and the Holy Spirit, which has been handling all of that instruction the last 2,000 yrs, and revert back to the inferior types and shadows that once pointed forward to Christ?

Why not just continue following the examples, precepts, and teachings of the better New Covenant that replaced the Old Covenant, that waxed old and vanished away?

Sounds like you're suggesting that after Christ Returns to Earth, we'll turn off Christianity, and go back to Judaism again.

:confused How does that make perfect sense?Good question. I think that makes no sense whatsoever. Not even a tiny bit. The better, new covenant replaced the old covenant (Heb 8:6), so why go back to what was inferior to the new covenant?

John146
Aug 7th 2009, 02:17 PM
This sounds like the best explanation yet -- but I am still trying to figure out, the layout and description is so precise. What is the significance of giving such a detailed description of something that would not come to pass?It was a conditional prophecy. It could have come to pass, but the conditions weren't met.

Eze 43
10Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

John146
Aug 7th 2009, 02:25 PM
But, see, that's just it -- It's a complete dillemma, and I am having great trouble making sense of it. Either the prophecy is not fulfilled, and God's word returns void, or the prophecy is fulfilled, and contradicts the clear teaching of the NT about Christ's atoning sacrifice.

The only explanation that would seem to make sense to me is David Taylor's explanation that this vision was something that could have been....but then again, why would God give such a detailed description of something that merely "could have been?"Why not? In Rev. 21 it gives a detailed description of the new heavens and new earth. For unbelievers who never put their faith in Christ what is described there is only something that "could have been". That's just the way it is.

Desperaux
Aug 7th 2009, 02:36 PM
So are you saying stop following the superior guidance of the Bible and the Holy Spirit, which has been handling all of that instruction the last 2,000 yrs, and revert back to the inferior types and shadows that once pointed forward to Christ?

Why not just continue following the examples, precepts, and teachings of the better New Covenant that replaced the Old Covenant, that waxed old and vanished away?

Sounds like you're suggesting that after Christ Returns to Earth, we'll turn off Christianity, and go back to Judaism again.

:confused How does that make perfect sense?


Why not? In Rev. 21 it gives a detailed description of the new heavens and new earth. For unbelievers who never put their faith in Christ what is described there is only something that "could have been". That's just the way it is.


WE don't turn off anything. WE won't be here. This is God's agenda for Israel.

David Taylor
Aug 7th 2009, 05:02 PM
WE don't turn off anything. WE won't be here. This is God's agenda for Israel.

We (all the redeemed, regardless of race) will be with Jesus after He returns, and the Scriptures says He is returning to the Earth....

(really not sure where 'you' think you'll be, Desperaux)....but you're gonna be with Christ in the New Jerusalem, on the New Earth, with the rest of us!

That's were all of the repentent and redeemed Jews of Israel will be also!


Anyone else who aren't Christ's, will be in the Lake of Fire.

BroRog
Aug 7th 2009, 05:25 PM
It was a conditional prophecy. It could have come to pass, but the conditions weren't met.

Eze 43
10Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

It's a strange thing though. Since the prophecy is in the Hebrew Bible, they have been shown. And if the prophecy is conditional then it remains to be met if the conditions are met.

We can't have it both ways people. Either the prophecy is conditional or it has been superseded. It can't be both.

Desperaux
Aug 7th 2009, 06:13 PM
We (all the redeemed, regardless of race) will be with Jesus after He returns, and the Scriptures says He is returning to the Earth....

(really not sure where 'you' think you'll be, Desperaux)....but you're gonna be with Christ in the New Jerusalem, on the New Earth, with the rest of us!

That's were all of the repentent and redeemed Jews of Israel will be also!


Anyone else who aren't Christ's, will be in the Lake of Fire.

We will be in the heavenlies with Christ from the Rapture on until we return with Him at the end of the Tribulation to set up His Kingdom, the New Earth and after that, the New Jerusalem. Of course, I know there is a faction who do not ascribe to that belief, but that is what I and millions of others believe.

John146
Aug 7th 2009, 07:10 PM
It's a strange thing though. Since the prophecy is in the Hebrew Bible, they have been shown. And if the prophecy is conditional then it remains to be met if the conditions are met.

We can't have it both ways people. Either the prophecy is conditional or it has been superseded. It can't be both.It was conditional for "the house of Israel" that existed at that time. Since they're all dead now, I'd say it's a little too late for the prophecy to be fulfilled for them now.

Desperaux
Aug 7th 2009, 07:16 PM
It was conditional for "the house of Israel" that existed at that time. Since they're all dead now, I'd say it's a little too late for the prophecy to be fulfilled for them now.

All prophecy will be fulfilled. It is not to late except for man's misinterpretation that says it is.

John146
Aug 7th 2009, 07:47 PM
All prophecy will be fulfilled. It is not to late except for man's misinterpretation that says it is.You seem to think that all prophecy is unconditional. That is simply not the case. Here's one example of a prophecy that was not fulfilled as stated because it was conditional:

Jonah 3
4And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

In verse 4 Jonah prophesied that Nineveh was going to be destroyed. But that was conditional. Since they repented God did not do what He said He would do. If they had not repented God certainly would have done what He said He was going to do.

So, that's how I see the Ezekiel prophecy. God showed what He would have done had they repented and been "ashamed of all that they have done", but they didn't.

BroRog
Aug 7th 2009, 09:53 PM
It was conditional for "the house of Israel" that existed at that time. Since they're all dead now, I'd say it's a little too late for the prophecy to be fulfilled for them now.

Where is the time element? And why is it too late?

Johnboy
Aug 7th 2009, 09:53 PM
It was conditional for "the house of Israel" that existed at that time. Since they're all dead now, I'd say it's a little too late for the prophecy to be fulfilled for them now.
What do you mean they are dead! last time I checked they fulfilled another prophecy in ezekiel and returned to the land......

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 11:44 PM
I think it will be rebuilt. I agree it contradicts the new covenant but that's my point, they won't be under the new covenant yet, which was the point of post 24.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2162933&postcount=24

So, then, are you saying that it will be built during the tribulation...and according to these dimensions?

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 11:48 PM
Several of us have tried to make the point that there is nothing contradictory about the temple sacrifices and Christ's once for all atonement. We know animal sacrifices can never take away sin and it's clear that people (believers) during the Millennium will acknowledge that Christ is the Messiah and the one and only Saviour. These sacrifices don't undermine Christ's atonement, in fact they reinforce the priniciple that without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin. They also remind the offerers of their own sinfulness (Heb 10:3) in the presence of God.

I agree that the sin offerings didn't actually atone for sin, but they also existed in order to cover sin. If Christ has already atoned for our sin, then why would we need a covering?



As believers we may come boldly before the throne of grace but as sinners there is still a need for cleansing if we want "draw near" to God. So if we want to draw near to God/Christ in prayer or through worship there must be cleansing (ie. confession of sin) and pure motives (a true heart). So if cleansing is necessary for us, how much more needful is it for sinners who enter into the PHYSICAL presence of the glorified Christ! So as a sinner coming into the actual presence of Christ, what better way to show your humility/contrition and true heart of worship than to offer a public sacrifice acknowledging your sinfulness and allegiance to the Lamb of God.

To be consistent, If this temple is literal, then so are the sacrifices.

Cheers
Leigh

I agree that they must be literal, so are you saying that Christ's sacrifice only atones for those in this age, and will not atone for those in the new millennium as well?

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 7th 2009, 11:49 PM
Remember that the Jews are still expecting there Mesaiha. To them Jesus was false. So therefore they still believe in sacrafices. Therefore the temple must be rebuild and sacrafices are to be offered. It is written therefore it shall be. It has not happened therefoe it is still in the future. Very simple if we understand the differences between the Kingdom on earth and the Body of Christ.

Ya but the dimensions wouldn't make sense. Isn't this structure to big to be built upon the temple mount -- and where will the Dome of the Rock go?

Desperaux
Aug 7th 2009, 11:57 PM
You seem to think that all prophecy is unconditional. That is simply not the case. Here's one example of a prophecy that was not fulfilled as stated because it was conditional:

Jonah 3
4And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

In verse 4 Jonah prophesied that Nineveh was going to be destroyed. But that was conditional. Since they repented God did not do what He said He would do. If they had not repented God certainly would have done what He said He was going to do.

So, that's how I see the Ezekiel prophecy. God showed what He would have done had they repented and been "ashamed of all that they have done", but they didn't.

That doesn't apply here.

Desperaux
Aug 7th 2009, 11:57 PM
Ya but the dimensions wouldn't make sense. Isn't this structure to big to be built upon the temple mount -- and where will the Dome of the Rock go?

The Dome of the Rock, IMO, will be destroyed, as there will not be a place for Islam. The new temple will be built elsewhere.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 8th 2009, 12:40 AM
The Dome of the Rock, IMO, will be destroyed, as there will not be a place for Islam. The new temple will be built elsewhere.


So, you're saying that the temple will be according to these dimensions -- one square mile?

Desperaux
Aug 8th 2009, 12:49 AM
So, you're saying that the temple will be according to these dimensions -- one square mile?

Ezekiel 42:15-20
15 When the man had finished measuring the inside of the Temple area, he led me out through the east gateway to measure the entire perimeter. 16 He measured the east side with his measuring rod, and it was 875 feet long. 17 Then he measured the north side, and it was also 875 feet. 18 The south side was also 875 feet, 19 and the west side was also 875 feet. 20 So the area was 875 feet on each side with a wall all around it to separate what was holy from what was common.

John146
Aug 8th 2009, 05:41 AM
What do you mean they are dead! last time I checked they fulfilled another prophecy in ezekiel and returned to the land......I meant that the ones who were alive then at the time the prophecy was given to Ezekiel are dead now.

John146
Aug 8th 2009, 05:44 AM
That doesn't apply here.Why not? You are saying the Ezekiel prophecy can't be conditional, yet we have examples of conditional prophecies in scripure. So, why couldn't it have been a conditional prophecy? Isn't there a condition given in Ezekiel 43:11?

John146
Aug 8th 2009, 05:50 AM
Where is the time element? And why is it too late?The prophecy was given to the house of Israel that existed back then and I believe that the condition of having to "be ashamed of all that they have done" (Eze 43:10-11) applied to the Israelites of that generation in particular. And I don't believe they met the condition that was given.

Nihil Obstat
Aug 8th 2009, 07:12 AM
And I don't believe they met the condition that was given.

Was it even possible for them to meet the conditions? If so, would Christ have still been sent to die for our sins, given God was going to dwell there forever? But if it was not possible, then it wasn't truly a conditional promise, as it would be neither "conditional" nor an actual "promise"! Which is it then? This is what I am struggling with here. But maybe I'm missing something...

John146
Aug 8th 2009, 07:33 AM
Was it even possible for them to meet the conditions?Sure, why not?

Take a verse like this, for example:

Matt 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Because they "would not" (were not willing) Jesus did not gather "thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings". Since He didn't gather "thy children together..." because they were not willing does that mean it was not possible for them to be willing? No, I don't believe so. If it wasn't possible then it wouldn't make sense for Him to say what He would have done if they were.


If so, would Christ have still been sent to die for our sins, given God was going to dwell there forever?Since it speaks of sin offerings being performed then obviously people would still be sinning and Jesus would still have been sent to die for our sins because without His sacrifice no one's sins would be taken away (Heb 10).


But if it was not possible, then it wasn't truly a conditional promise, as it would be neither "conditional" nor an actual "promise"! Which is it then? This is what I am struggling with here. But maybe I'm missing something...I think what you're missing is that it was conditional and it was possible for them to meet the conditions. If it wasn't then why even bother saying "if they be ashamed of all that they have done"? Since that little word "if" is in there, I would think it was possible for them to either meet the condition or to not meet the condition.

Johnboy
Aug 8th 2009, 01:05 PM
I meant that the ones who were alive then at the time the prophecy was given to Ezekiel are dead now.
But I don't see your point

Desperaux
Aug 8th 2009, 02:54 PM
Why not? You are saying the Ezekiel prophecy can't be conditional, yet we have examples of conditional prophecies in scripure. So, why couldn't it have been a conditional prophecy? Isn't there a condition given in Ezekiel 43:11?


I see nothing conditional. It is a strict prophecy that will be fulfilled by the will of God. Verse 7 attests to that where God says, "I will...":

Ezekiel 43:7;10-11
The Lord said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place where I will rest my feet. I will live here forever among the people of Israel. They and their kings will not defile my holy name any longer by their adulterous worship of other gods or by honoring the relics of their kings who have died.

and further...

10 “Son of man, describe to the people of Israel the Temple I have shown you, so they will be ashamed of all their sins. Let them study its plan, 11 and they will be ashamed of what they have done. Describe to them all the specifications of the Temple—including its entrances and exits—and everything else about it. Tell them about its decrees and laws. Write down all these specifications and decrees as they watch so they will be sure to remember and follow them.

BroRog
Aug 8th 2009, 04:11 PM
The prophecy was given to the house of Israel that existed back then and I believe that the condition of having to "be ashamed of all that they have done" (Eze 43:10-11) applied to the Israelites of that generation in particular. And I don't believe they met the condition that was given.

The question is, if God intended a time limit, he would have said so. To add a time limit is speculation.

BroRog
Aug 8th 2009, 04:21 PM
I think what you're missing is that it was conditional and it was possible for them to meet the conditions. If it wasn't then why even bother saying "if they be ashamed of all that they have done"? Since that little word "if" is in there, I would think it was possible for them to either meet the condition or to not meet the condition.

I think Astro has taken us back to my original question. We know that God had planned to make Jesus the central point of his salvation story, which he planned before the foundation of the world. He knew at the time he made his promise to Israel as recorded in Ezekiel that Jesus would come and die on the cross.

It seems to me that the temple and the animal sacrifices served a different purpose than that which took place on the cross. Don't forget, the prophecy in question has the Lord return to his temple to enter through the East Gate. One can hardly argue that the Lord disapproves of the animal sacrifices when, had Israel met the conditions of the promise, would find the Lord living in the very house in which they are performed.

And if it would have served a different purpose then, at the time, then why couldn't they serve that same purpose in the future?

Sirus
Aug 8th 2009, 06:16 PM
I think it will be rebuilt. I agree it contradicts the new covenant but that's my point, they won't be under the new covenant yet, which was the point of post 24.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2162933&postcount=24So, then, are you saying that it will be built during the tribulation...and according to these dimensions?Yes. Sorry it took so long to reply.

wyldkatt
Aug 8th 2009, 10:37 PM
Hello all-

I too, am 1 that believes in a 3rd Temple.

Not to sure about putting links on here.

But if one was to do an internet search, let's say for,' Sanhedrin Rabbi's

+ Adnan Oktar + Joel Richardson + 3rd Temple', maybe you can find a

story where they all met and talked about the re-building.

Oktar is an Islamist that promotes peace with Jews and Christians.

He is a Muslim, yet he believes the Temple of Soloman could be built in as

little time as 1 year.

I think, just the fact that the recently re-formed Sanhedrin, sent Rabbis

to attend this interview, and present the Jewish peoples' view of the

Temple Mount situation, is a huge deal.

Did I hear, 'Peace, peace'?

They ALL talk about the 3rd Temple being a 'house of prayer for all

nations'.

WOW-

you can also search for a large 'model' of the 2nd Temple, which was

placed across the street sorta from the existing Temple Mt.

This was done yesterday(friday).

It's said to be the 'largest' ever to be done, with the details and design

intricacies that are normally not found in models.

There are photos available as well.

I.H.S.

~wyld~

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 8th 2009, 10:40 PM
Ezekiel 42:15-20
15 When the man had finished measuring the inside of the Temple area, he led me out through the east gateway to measure the entire perimeter. 16 He measured the east side with his measuring rod, and it was 875 feet long. 17 Then he measured the north side, and it was also 875 feet. 18 The south side was also 875 feet, 19 and the west side was also 875 feet. 20 So the area was 875 feet on each side with a wall all around it to separate what was holy from what was common.

Desperaux -- I'm assuming that this means yes


Yes. Sorry it took so long to reply.

Sirus -- That's okay. No problem.

I just don't understand how this can be a tribulation prophecy, when the passage clearly indicates that God's Spirit will be dwelling in the temple.

Understand that during the tribulation period, the temple will not be blessed, nor will God dwell with those people in htis temple. This temple will be an aboimination to Him.

So, then, if this is a prophecy of the tribulation temple, then how do you explain this contradiction?

Sirus
Aug 8th 2009, 11:37 PM
Sirus -- That's okay. No problem.

I just don't understand how this can be a tribulation prophecy, when the passage clearly indicates that God's Spirit will be dwelling in the temple. It says His glory fills the house, not the Spirit dwelt. I think you are confusing the presence of God in the ark with something that was not a regular continual occurrence?
Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.


Understand that during the tribulation period, the temple will not be blessed, nor will God dwell with those people in htis temple. This temple will be an aboimination to Him.Where do you get this idea? This temple (some believe) will continue through the millennium (Eze 47).

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 9th 2009, 04:28 AM
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 9th 2009, 03:51 PM
I don't know -- for some reason, I thought that God destroyed the temple that is built in the tribulation? Am I wrong in this?

Sirus
Aug 9th 2009, 07:43 PM
I don't know. What scriptures make you think this? Also, why couldn't it be destroyed? If one is built, how would that change the fact that one was built?

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 9th 2009, 08:42 PM
Well, I don't disagree that one will be built, but just not the temple found in Ezekiel....the one with a river flowing underneath the altar, with trees around it whose leaves bring healing to the nations.

Johnboy
Aug 9th 2009, 09:39 PM
Well, I don't disagree that one will be built, but just not the temple found in Ezekiel....the one with a river flowing underneath the altar, with trees around it whose leaves bring healing to the nations.
Why would you say that when a river comes down from the altar in ezekiel's temple.

Ezekiel 47 v 6 (sword:///Ezekiel%2047:6) ¶And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 (sword:///Ezekiel%2047:7) Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 (sword:///Ezekiel%2047:8) Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

Here is the best illustration I have ever seen of ezekiel's temple
http://www.antipas.org/bible_study_aids/subjects/ezekiels_temple/ezek_temple.jpg

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 10th 2009, 12:11 AM
Why would you say that when a river comes down from the altar in ezekiel's temple.




I don't know. I think I was referring to 47:1, but I got confused.

Desperaux
Aug 10th 2009, 04:56 AM
Well, I don't disagree that one will be built, but just not the temple found in Ezekiel....the one with a river flowing underneath the altar, with trees around it whose leaves bring healing to the nations.

The same description is found in Revelation 22, which is the same temple after the City of God--the New Jerusalem--and the Throne of God arrives, with the river emanating from the Throne of God.

Sirus
Aug 10th 2009, 05:16 AM
Eze 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

John146
Aug 10th 2009, 04:23 PM
But I don't see your pointMy point was that the prophecy was conditional upon the people of Israel back then being "ashamed of all that they have done" (Eze 43:11). I don't believe they showed that they were, so the prophecy wasn't fulfilled as it would have been if they had been "ashamed of all that they have done".

John146
Aug 10th 2009, 04:30 PM
I see nothing conditional. It is a strict prophecy that will be fulfilled by the will of God. Verse 7 attests to that where God says, "I will...":

Ezekiel 43:7;10-11
The Lord said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place where I will rest my feet. I will live here forever among the people of Israel. They and their kings will not defile my holy name any longer by their adulterous worship of other gods or by honoring the relics of their kings who have died.

and further...

10 “Son of man, describe to the people of Israel the Temple I have shown you, so they will be ashamed of all their sins. Let them study its plan, 11 and they will be ashamed of what they have done. Describe to them all the specifications of the Temple—including its entrances and exits—and everything else about it. Tell them about its decrees and laws. Write down all these specifications and decrees as they watch so they will be sure to remember and follow them.That's from the New Living Translation. That is hardly the most reliable translation. Every other translation I read does not leave the word "if" out of verse 11.

John146
Aug 10th 2009, 04:33 PM
Well, I don't disagree that one will be built, but just not the temple found in Ezekiel....the one with a river flowing underneath the altar, with trees around it whose leaves bring healing to the nations.Where would that temple be then?

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Desperaux
Aug 10th 2009, 05:51 PM
That's from the New Living Translation. That is hardly the most reliable translation. Every other translation I read does not leave the word "if" out of verse 11.

The Greek version doesn't say. "if they are ashamed".

David Taylor
Aug 10th 2009, 08:25 PM
The Greek version doesn't say. "if they are ashamed".

Firstly, the New Living Bible isn't a translation; it like 'the Message' is a paraphrase. Building doctrine out of it's explicit word-choices would be an unwise choice to pursue.

If you're gonna bring translational issues into play, and start using it to change doctrine; then let's be consistent here.

If English is wrongly translated in this verse as you are saying, then we shouldn't take your word for it, but rather, test that verse against all of the historical English Translations of the Bible.

If they bear it incorrectly, as you say, then God has a problem properly conveying His Word into English here...otherwise, perhaps, just perhaps, you might be letting your doctrinal preferences over-ride what the Scriptures do say. All of us should be careful to never do this.

Ezekiel 43:11

In English....over the centuries. What sayeth the Scriptures?

2001 ESV - "And if they are ashamed of all that they have done"

1982 NKJV - "And if they are ashamed of all that they have done"

1973 NIV - "and if they are ashamed of all they have done"

1970 NASB - "If they are ashamed of all that they have done"

1890 Darby - "And if they be confounded at all that they have done"

1833 Websters - "And if they shall be ashamed of all that they have done"

1611 KJV - "And if they be ashamed of all that they haue done"

1587 Geneva - "And if they be ashamed of all that they haue done"

1568 Bishops - "And if they be ashamed of all their workes"



So were all of the translators who translated the verse above into English wrong?

Or were they actually correct and in harmony one with another, and our views should be aligned to accept what the Translators who wrote all of the above English Bibles were in agreement on? (Since we do all speak English, and trust the Lord to faithfully preserve His Word when translated into English for us English Speakers)

Desperaux
Aug 10th 2009, 09:20 PM
The New Living Translation is a translation.


The NLT second edition represents a new benchmark in dynamic equivalence. Since it is not possible to translate literally every Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic word into English, the vast majority of Bible scholars embrace the principle of dynamic equivalence--rendering the actual meaning of an ancient phrase or passage in its closest English equivalent. The NLT second edition carefully takes into account both literal and dynamic renderings. This balance of living language and precise scholarship sets a new standard for Bible translations.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 10th 2009, 09:48 PM
Where would that temple be then?

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Could you kindly clarify your question?

Sirus
Aug 10th 2009, 11:34 PM
Where would that temple be then?

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.We're not talking about that temple.

BroRog
Aug 11th 2009, 12:43 AM
I don't know -- for some reason, I thought that God destroyed the temple that is built in the tribulation? Am I wrong in this?

The temple was destroyed in 70AD. This event marked the beginning of the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation will end as soon as the times of the Gentiles have ended. The next Temple will not be destroyed until the entire earth is destroyed by fire at the second resurrection.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 11th 2009, 02:08 AM
The temple was destroyed in 70AD. This event marked the beginning of the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation will end as soon as the times of the Gentiles have ended. The next Temple will not be destroyed until the entire earth is destroyed by fire at the second resurrection.

The second resurrection? Do you mean the second coming of Christ?

Desperaux
Aug 11th 2009, 07:50 AM
The temple was destroyed in 70AD. This event marked the beginning of the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation will end as soon as the times of the Gentiles have ended. The next Temple will not be destroyed until the entire earth is destroyed by fire at the second resurrection.

That is a belief that is rarely adhered to, based on Scripture. I know no other Christian who knows the scriptures who even begins to believe anything like that.

Johnboy
Aug 11th 2009, 01:38 PM
My point was that the prophecy was conditional upon the people of Israel back then being "ashamed of all that they have done" (Eze 43:11). I don't believe they showed that they were, so the prophecy wasn't fulfilled as it would have been if they had been "ashamed of all that they have done".
I agree it was not going to be for the Israelites then but it will happen in the future.

Ezekiel 43 v 7 (sword:///Ezekiel%2043:7) ¶And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8 (sword:///Ezekiel%2043:8) In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9 (sword:///Ezekiel%2043:9) Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

BroRog
Aug 11th 2009, 02:33 PM
The second resurrection? Do you mean the second coming of Christ?

The second resurrection takes place at the end of this age as I see it, when we all stand before the White Throne. Jesus comes to rule from Jerusalem, from Ezekiel's temple in this age.

BroRog
Aug 11th 2009, 02:35 PM
That is a belief that is rarely adhered to, based on Scripture. I know no other Christian who knows the scriptures who even begins to believe anything like that.

I realize that the notion that the tribulation lasts longer than 7 years is very uncommon, but I'm not the only one who thinks so.

John146
Aug 11th 2009, 04:37 PM
The Greek version doesn't say. "if they are ashamed".The translators of most translations put it there for a good reason. It fits with the surrounding context. Are people just automatically ashamed of their sins?

John146
Aug 11th 2009, 04:43 PM
Where would that temple be then?

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.I'm not sure I understand your point. Could you kindly clarify your question?You had said:
Well, I don't disagree that one will be built, but just not the temple found in Ezekiel....the one with a river flowing underneath the altar, with trees around it whose leaves bring healing to the nationsWeren't you quoting from Rev. 22 here? I assumed so and that's why I showed that there will be no physical temple at that time. You are saying that you believe there will be a future physical temple, right? But just not the one from Ezekiel. So, where is the scripture that speaks of this temple that you believe will be built in the future?

John146
Aug 11th 2009, 04:53 PM
I agree it was not going to be for the Israelites then but it will happen in the future.

Ezekiel 43 v 7 (sword:///Ezekiel%2043:7) ¶And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8 (sword:///Ezekiel%2043:8) In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9 (sword:///Ezekiel%2043:9) Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.Which would mean you believe there will be sin offerings performed in the future for the purpose of being accepted by God and bringing reconciliation to the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 43
25Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish. 26Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
27And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Why would sin offerings need to be performed in order to be accepted by God and to bring reconciliation to the house of Israel when Christ's sin offering "once for all" (Heb 10:10) already accomplishes those things?

How do you reconcile your view of a future fulfillment of that prophecy with scripture like this:

Heb 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Why would scripture like this suddenly become obsolete in the future? Why would things return to the ways of the inferior old covenant? Why would the new covenant suddenly not be sufficient any longer?

Desperaux
Aug 11th 2009, 05:01 PM
The translators of most translations put it there for a good reason. It fits with the surrounding context. Are people just automatically ashamed of their sins?

Everyone who is outside of salvation will be ashamed, and that includes Israel--before a holy God.

John146
Aug 11th 2009, 05:09 PM
Everyone who is outside of salvation will be ashamed, and that includes Israel--before a holy God.But the prophecy is speaking in terms of them being ashamed while they are still living. Everyone will be ashamed once they stand before the judgment seat of Christ but the prophecy from Ezekiel isn't speaking about that.

Desperaux
Aug 11th 2009, 06:37 PM
But the prophecy is speaking in terms of them being ashamed while they are still living. Everyone will be ashamed once they stand before the judgment seat of Christ but the prophecy from Ezekiel isn't speaking about that.

Israel will know they missed the Messiah while they yet live. Their shame will be great.

David Taylor
Aug 11th 2009, 07:22 PM
Israel will know they missed the Messiah while they yet live. Their shame will be great.

Israel knows already that they are missing their Messiah.

That have already heard the news of Him.

Romans 10:18 "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."


Luckily for them, God sees them as individual human beings, and He died for each one of them on the Cross; so that each of them can come to Him today for repentance, forgiveness, and salvation.

Not one Israelite has to wait for anything to happen; they each are welcome and invited to repent and turn to Christ today; according to Isaiah and Paul.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

"(For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) " 2 Corinthians 6:2

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:36


There is no postponement of salvation found in the Bible for any Israelite....because of Calvary's wonder gift, it is available immediately, today, tomorrow, and every day!

Desperaux
Aug 11th 2009, 07:29 PM
Of course every Israelite is an individual before the Lord and He is calling them. They do not know they are missing their Messiah. They are still looking for Him.

Those who reject Christ will miss the Rapture. They will have to deal with the offers of peace from the Antichrist and his betrayal of them in that temple he allows them to build as he sits, declaring himself to be God.

They will collectively know they have missed the Messiah.

BroRog
Aug 11th 2009, 07:36 PM
Israel knows already that they are missing their Messiah.

When you say "Israel" knows, are you saying that this knowledge is the official position of the State of Israel?

David Taylor
Aug 11th 2009, 08:09 PM
Of course every Israelite is an individual before the Lord and He is calling them. They do not know they are missing their Messiah. They are still looking for Him.

Those who reject Christ will miss the Rapture. They will have to deal with the offers of peace from the Antichrist

They will collectively know they have missed the Messiah.

The rapture isn't important.
Christ will always receive His own, and will not leave any out.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. "

Repenting, turning to follow Jesus, and finding forgiveness in Him, that is what is important....equally important and equally available to every single human being.



The Antichrist isn't important either.

Christ whip the backsides of all the evil minions that exist, and through Christ all humans who accept Him have total and complete power, authority, and victory!

Romans 8:31 "If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Missing the Messiah is individual; not collective.
Luckily, Finding Messiah is also individual; not collective.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. " Romans 10:10

David Taylor
Aug 11th 2009, 08:17 PM
When you say "Israel" knows, are you saying that this knowledge is the official position of the State of Israel?

It is the official position of the Bible; per the apostles Peter, Paul, John, and Luke in regards to whether or not Israel has been made known of Christ or not.


"But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." Romans 10:18

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:36

Acts 13:23 "Of this man's [David] seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus"

Luke 1:68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David"

John 1:31 "that he should be made manifest to Israel"

Desperaux
Aug 11th 2009, 08:31 PM
The rapture isn't important.
Christ will always receive His own, and will not leave any out.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. "

Repenting, turning to follow Jesus, and finding forgiveness in Him, that is what is important....equally important and equally available to every single human being.



The Antichrist isn't important either.

Christ whip the backsides of all the evil minions that exist, and through Christ all humans who accept Him have total and complete power, authority, and victory!

Romans 8:31 "If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Missing the Messiah is individual; not collective.
Luckily, Finding Messiah is also individual; not collective.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. " Romans 10:10

Oh well, we are discussing prophecy. The Rapture figures in and so does the Antichrist. We are bound to touch upon these things. Jesus thinks it is important that we know the times of the seasons.

As believers we are to be watchful, and ready to give a reason for our hope.

David Taylor
Aug 11th 2009, 09:15 PM
As believers we are to be watchful, and ready to give a reason for our hope.

And Jesus alone, not a rapture doctrine, nor an antichrist adversary....is the reason for our hope.

That's why I said Israel's only hope is following what Paul, Peter, Luke, John and the other N.T. writers told them...and to repent today. Today is the day of Salvation for any Israelite, Gebusite, or Mosquitobite! :rofl:

Desperaux
Aug 11th 2009, 09:24 PM
And Jesus alone, not a rapture doctrine, nor an antichrist adversary....is the reason for our hope.

That's why I said Israel's only hope is following what Paul, Peter, Luke, John and the other N.T. writers told them...and to repent today. Today is the day of Salvation for any Israelite, Gebusite, or Mosquitobite! :rofl:

I know that... http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/angelheart.gif

David Taylor
Aug 11th 2009, 09:47 PM
I know that... http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/angelheart.gif

Then why make comments like this...
"Israel will know they missed the Messiah while they yet live. Their shame will be great"
...when you do know that Jesus alone is the reason for their hope and that they can each have Jesus now, and they don't have to wait, but can partake of Christ immediately now, not in some speculative future scenerio that may or may not occur exactly the way you think it is suppose to occur?
:idea:

Johnboy
Aug 11th 2009, 09:57 PM
Then why make comments like this...
"Israel will know they missed the Messiah while they yet live. Their shame will be great"
...when you do know that Jesus alone is the reason for their hope and that they can each have Jesus now, and they don't have to wait, but can partake of Christ immediately now, not in some speculative future scenerio that may or may not occur exactly the way you think it is suppose to occur?
:idea:
Yes at the moment to be saved they need to be baptised but when Christ returns it says they understand what they did wrong, With Christ there they will not need baptism but it will only be those that are alive at that time not now.

Zechariah 12 v 10 (sword:///Zechariah%2012:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 (sword:///Zechariah%2012:11) In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 (sword:///Zechariah%2012:12) And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 (sword:///Zechariah%2012:13) The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 (sword:///Zechariah%2012:14) All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Zechariah 13 v 1 (sword:///Zechariah%2013:1) In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

BroRog
Aug 12th 2009, 12:08 AM
It is the official position of the Bible; per the apostles Peter, Paul, John, and Luke in regards to whether or not Israel has been made known of Christ or not.


"But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." Romans 10:18

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:36

Acts 13:23 "Of this man's [David] seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus"

Luke 1:68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David"

John 1:31 "that he should be made manifest to Israel"

That isn't what I asked. What does "Israel" mean in these passages, the nation State of Israel?

David Taylor
Aug 12th 2009, 03:01 AM
That isn't what I asked. What does "Israel" mean in these passages, the nation State of Israel?

I have no idea what a nation-state of Israel is.

All I could give you Roger, are the Scriptures that pertain to Israel...if they don't fit the view you are trying to make with you point...I can't help you out on this one.

Israel is a composition of Israelites....and according to the Bible, they were clearly made known of Christ.

Many just chose to reject Him and remain lost in their sins.
Luckily for them, daily, many are seeking repentance and turning from their hard-heartedness, and the scales are falling off of their eyes, and they are warmly accepted and embraced, and completed by the Great King of the Jews...their long await Messiah arriving to them individually as their deliverer, savior, and kinsman's redeemer!

David Taylor
Aug 12th 2009, 03:04 AM
Yes at the moment to be saved they need to be baptised but when Christ returns it says they understand what they did wrong, With Christ there they will not need baptism but it will only be those that are alive at that time not now.

Zechariah 12 v 10 (sword:///Zechariah%2012:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


The Apostle John told us the fulfillment of this passage was at Calvary; 2000 years ago.

I believe John and see no reason to reject John's interpretation of Zechariah 12:10, and change it's venue to another time in our future.


John 19:35 "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Johnboy
Aug 12th 2009, 01:11 PM
Which would mean you believe there will be sin offerings performed in the future for the purpose of being accepted by God and bringing reconciliation to the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 43
25Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish. 26Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
27And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Why would sin offerings need to be performed in order to be accepted by God and to bring reconciliation to the house of Israel when Christ's sin offering "once for all" (Heb 10:10) already accomplishes those things?

How do you reconcile your view of a future fulfillment of that prophecy with scripture like this:

Heb 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Why would scripture like this suddenly become obsolete in the future? Why would things return to the ways of the inferior old covenant? Why would the new covenant suddenly not be sufficient any longer?
I never put forward the idea that it would be for a sin offering, I said that it would make sense that it would be a visible way of teaching and reminding humanity about Christ and why everything was done.

Johnboy
Aug 12th 2009, 01:21 PM
The Apostle John told us the fulfillment of this passage was at Calvary; 2000 years ago.

I believe John and see no reason to reject John's interpretation of Zechariah 12:10, and change it's venue to another time in our future.


John 19:35 "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Please do not misuse this quote from John he is not saying that the prophecy in Zechariah has been fulfilled he is using to show that he would be pierced
33 (sword:///John%2019:33) But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 (sword:///John%2019:34) But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 (sword:///John%2019:35) And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 (sword:///John%2019:36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 (sword:///John%2019:37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.It does not say in verse 37 that the scripture was fulfilled because there is no way if you actually read zechariah that it could have been fulfilled. Where v.36 definitely was fulfilled

BroRog
Aug 12th 2009, 03:57 PM
I have no idea what a nation-state of Israel is.

All I could give you Roger, are the Scriptures that pertain to Israel...if they don't fit the view you are trying to make with you point...I can't help you out on this one.

Israel is a composition of Israelites....and according to the Bible, they were clearly made known of Christ.

Many just chose to reject Him and remain lost in their sins.
Luckily for them, daily, many are seeking repentance and turning from their hard-heartedness, and the scales are falling off of their eyes, and they are warmly accepted and embraced, and completed by the Great King of the Jews...their long await Messiah arriving to them individually as their deliverer, savior, and kinsman's redeemer!

But here you are speaking about individual Israelites, not Israel itself. Do you understand the distinction?

David Taylor
Aug 12th 2009, 04:31 PM
But here you are speaking about individual Israelites, not Israel itself. Do you understand the distinction?

Israel has always been about a group of individuals....what's your point?

BroRog
Aug 12th 2009, 07:18 PM
Israel has always been about a group of individuals....what's your point?

Do you really not understand? Have you ever heard the expression, "The Whole is greater than the sum of its parts?"

Let's go with a more recent example. It is generally known that the US went to war with Iraq. As a country we went to war. Individually, some of us fought the war, and some of us didn't. The war between the US and Iraq was a war between two nations -- two sovereign states. The leaders of each nation state decided on behalf of its people to expend resources and energy to either attack or defend each other.

As such, whatever our personal feelings or opinions were concerning the war, the nation is/was at war. A nation is not simply a group of individuals. A nation taken as a whole has its own identity and soverienty and acts together in a united way. Whether any particular individual in the US disagreed with the war, it didn't matter. The nation went to war.

When the Bible talks about Israel, it is talking about the sovereign nation state of Israel, not some of it's people.

David Taylor
Aug 12th 2009, 08:13 PM
When the Bible talks about Israel, it is talking about the sovereign nation state of Israel, not some of it's people.

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Genesis 32:28 "And God said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Genesis 45:21 "And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way."

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Exodus 9:6 And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Exodus 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Judges 3:5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites: And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods. And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves.

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
II Kings 17:6 "In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes. For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, And walked in the statutes of the heathen"

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Ezra 6:21 And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Luke 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ

Israel isn't a sovereign nation here...
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


So no, when the Bible speaks of Israel, it is not always speaking of the sovereign nation state of Israel.

Johnboy
Aug 19th 2009, 05:34 AM
Israel has always been about a group of individuals....what's your point?
When the bible say Israel it is talking about the people as a whole, Israelites are the individuals. Just as you would say America is the people as a whole and americans are the individuals

BroRog
Aug 19th 2009, 05:18 PM
When the bible say Israel it is talking about the people as a whole, Israelites are the individuals. Just as you would say America is the people as a whole and americans are the individuals

Yes, thank you. It's good to see that someone else understands this.

David Taylor
Aug 19th 2009, 09:55 PM
So when Romans says, 'All Israel shall be saved'....it is talking about every single Israelite of all time then right?

So that 'all' really means 'all' and not 'some'.....

Or should we understand that 'all' in context, only means 'some'....the ones of faith who belong to Christ only.

Johnboy
Aug 20th 2009, 12:34 AM
So when Romans says, 'All Israel shall be saved'....it is talking about every single Israelite of all time then right?

So that 'all' really means 'all' and not 'some'.....

Or should we understand that 'all' in context, only means 'some'....the ones of faith who belong to Christ only.
You missed one other option and that is that is talking about all the people of Israel alive at that moment in time, which is an obvious option in my opinion.

BroRog
Aug 20th 2009, 01:01 AM
So when Romans says, 'All Israel shall be saved'....it is talking about every single Israelite of all time then right?

So that 'all' really means 'all' and not 'some'.....

Or should we understand that 'all' in context, only means 'some'....the ones of faith who belong to Christ only.

I agree with Johnboy, David. Paul is talking about those living in Israel at the time.

David Taylor
Aug 21st 2009, 07:43 PM
You missed one other option and that is that is talking about all the people of Israel alive at that moment in time, which is an obvious option in my opinion.

So "all isn't really all"....it's a subsetted group of Israelites living only at one point in time? According to your understanding?

If that is correct, and we've established that 'all' isn't really all, but only a subset of Israelites; then why can't it just as easily mean 'all' as in the subset of Israelites who will be saved, over the entire progression of time up until the end? That would still save 'all' that will be saved by the end, it just doesn't presume into the text a one-point endtime mass group conversion.

Since salvation is an individual process between an individual and the Lord, it seems to me that interpretation is more sound, than a future group-salvation event.

third hero
Aug 21st 2009, 07:48 PM
So "all isn't really all"....it's a subsetted group of Israelites living only at one point in time? According to your understanding?

If that is correct, and we've established that 'all' isn't really all, but only a subset of Israelites; then why can't it just as easily mean 'all' as in the subset of Israelites who will be saved, over the entire progression of time up until the end? That would still save 'all' that will be saved by the end, it just doesn't presume into the text a one-point endtime mass group conversion.

Since salvation is an individual process between an individual and the Lord, it seems to me that interpretation is more sound, than a future group-salvation event.

The word "until" provides us the clue that this is a time-related prophecy. Because of "until", we know that this prophecy is to happen at one point in time, and it will affect a certain generation of Israelites, as Paul goes on to further state in the next 2 verses.

Johnboy
Aug 21st 2009, 09:08 PM
So "all isn't really all"....it's a subsetted group of Israelites living only at one point in time? According to your understanding?

If that is correct, and we've established that 'all' isn't really all, but only a subset of Israelites; then why can't it just as easily mean 'all' as in the subset of Israelites who will be saved, over the entire progression of time up until the end? That would still save 'all' that will be saved by the end, it just doesn't presume into the text a one-point endtime mass group conversion.

Since salvation is an individual process between an individual and the Lord, it seems to me that interpretation is more sound, than a future group-salvation event.
I'm not sure why you are assuming that God is going to forgive every Israelite throughout time. This goes back to the reference in
Zechariah 12 v 10 (sword:///Zechariah%2012:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
which you never replied to.

David Taylor
Aug 21st 2009, 09:28 PM
The word "until" provides us the clue that this is a time-related prophecy. Because of "until", we know that this prophecy is to happen at one point in time, and it will affect a certain generation of Israelites, as Paul goes on to further state in the next 2 verses.

So it is a long, continuing process....(spanning the N.T. Era)

...not a one-time future event.

Because the branches have been being graffed into the Olive Tree all throughout the last 2000 years.....

Unless you think the Olive Tree is presently emtpy and branchless..... waiting for a single future day when all it's branches will be graffed onto it at one time.

It's a progressional graffing; not a one-day graffting event.

David Taylor
Aug 21st 2009, 09:30 PM
I'm not sure why you are assuming that God is going to forgive every Israelite throughout time. This goes back to the reference in
Zechariah 12 v 10 (sword:///Zechariah%2012:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
which you never replied to.



Most folks I hear teaching a Romans 11 future salvation event want to say that "all Israel" means a complete salvation of all Israel...not a subset of only the faithful ones of Israel...and not to include the ones who have come in, and who are presently coming in....

But as you say, "All" isn't really all anyway.

"All" is only the faithful ones; and it isn't relegated to the future only; but is an ongoing, present graffting; that only ends at Christ's return.
(for both faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles together)

BroRog
Aug 21st 2009, 10:13 PM
So "all isn't really all"....it's a subsetted group of Israelites living only at one point in time? According to your understanding?

If that is correct, and we've established that 'all' isn't really all, but only a subset of Israelites; then why can't it just as easily mean 'all' as in the subset of Israelites who will be saved, over the entire progression of time up until the end? That would still save 'all' that will be saved by the end, it just doesn't presume into the text a one-point endtime mass group conversion.

Since salvation is an individual process between an individual and the Lord, it seems to me that interpretation is more sound, than a future group-salvation event.


So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41

Looks like 3,000 souls can be saved as a group.

Johnboy
Aug 21st 2009, 10:44 PM
Most folks I hear teaching a Romans 11 future salvation event want to say that "all Israel" means a complete salvation of all Israel...not a subset of only the faithful ones of Israel...and not to include the ones who have come in, and who are presently coming in....

But as you say, "All" isn't really all anyway.

"All" is only the faithful ones; and it isn't relegated to the future only; but is an ongoing, present graffting; that only ends at Christ's return.
(for both faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles together)
let's look at this a bit more concisely...
We know that not all the Israelites were saved before Christ because they had to be faithful and we know many weren't.
We know that since Christ died baptism was the only way to be saved fro Jew or gentile (though it is never written that the apostles were baptised)
But what we are reading here is that Israelites who are there at the end of the gentile age when Christ returns will realise what they have done and be forgiven will they need to be baptised no because Christ is there.

Ben-Menashe
Sep 3rd 2011, 02:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nymuvDpQ-Fg

rejoice44
Sep 3rd 2011, 12:46 PM
Okay...So I'm trying to make sense of the whole temple vision of Ezekiel. Obviously, this isn't going to be a Millennial temple, as some articles on the internet say, because that would seem to run contrary to other Scripture, and the fact that it talks about sin offerings being sacrificed, well since Christ is our sacrifice, I don't see how this can be literal.

So, then, what is the purpose of this vision, and what does it really signify? The fact that it has literal dimensions seems to speak of more than a spiritual significance, but it seems like it's talking about a literal temple, so then, when is it supposed to be built?

Can anyone offer any help at all? I would like some context, so that I can read this with a little more clarity, but it's just confusing to me.

Also, the passages about Gog and Megog -- It appears that God already had some sort of a beef with these nations, so He causes them to rise up against Israel to glorify Himself when they are defeated. Again, I don;t want to make this into an End Times Chat thread -- I would just like to know what it is that I'm reading.

Thanks so much!!!

I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know what has already been posted, so If I am repeating something I am sorry.

It is my opinion that the Ezekiel's Temple was the second temple that was built and I give two reasons for that.

One is that Ezekiel's Temple had a larger altar than the first Temple. According to the Talmud the second Temple had these exact dimensions. Also the porch's dimension was the same.




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ezekiel 43:16 says the Altar was twelve cubits long and twelve cubits broad, square in the four corners thereof. (If you read carfully you will see below, colored in red, that R Jose describes that dimension as actually being 24 square, and directs this statement to Ezekiel 43:16.)


The Talmud, as spoken by R. Jose, says the original Alter was twenty cubits by twenty cubits, and when they returned from captivity they enlarged it to twenty four cubits.

R. Jose goes on to explain about the Alter of twelve cubits square as described in Ezekiel 43:16. What he explains is that the measurement taken for twelve cubits by twelve cubits was done by starting from a point in the center and working out in four directions, which gives a radius instead of the diameter. Thus you have 12 plus 12 which gives the 24 cubit measure for the Altar that is found as the same size of the Altar that was built after the return from captivity.

Mishna - Mas. Middoth Chapter 3
MISHNAH 1. THE ALTAR1 WAS THIRTY-TWO CUBITS BY THIRTY-TWO.2 IT ROSE A
CUBIT AND WENT IN A CUBIT, AND THIS FORMED THE FOUNDATION,3 LEAVING
THIRTY CUBITS BY THIRTY. IT THEN ROSE FIVE CUBITS AND WENT IN ONE CUBIT,
AND THIS FORMED THE SURROUND, LEAVING TWENTY-EIGHT CUBITS BY
TWENTY-EIGHT.4 THE HORNS EXTENDED A CUBIT IN EACH DIRECTION,5 THUS
LEAVING TWENTY-SIX BY TWENTY-SIX.6 A CUBIT ON EVERY SIDE WAS ALLOWED
FOR THE PRIESTS TO GO ROUND, THUS LEAVING TWENTY-FOUR BY TWENTY-FOUR
AS THE PLACE OF THE WOOD PILE [FOR THE ALTAR FIRE].
R. JOSE SAID: ORIGINALLY THE COMPLETE AREA [OCCUPIED BY THE ALTAR] WAS
ONLY TWENTY-EIGHT CUBITS BY TWENTY-EIGHT, AND IT ROSE WITH THE
DIMENSIONS MENTIONED7 UNTIL THE SPACE LEFT FOR THE ALTAR PILE WAS ONLY TWENTY BY TWENTY. WHEN, HOWEVER, THEY RETURNED FROM THE CAPTIVITY,8
THEY ADDED FOUR CUBITS ON THE NORTH,9 AND FOUR ON THE WEST LIKE A GAMMA,10 SINCE IT IS SAID: AND THE HEARTH11 SHALL BE TWELVE CUBITS LONG
BY TWELVE BROAD, SQUARE.12 AM I TO SUPPOSE THAT IT WAS ONLY TWELVE CUBITS BY TWELVE? WHEN IT SAYS, IN THE FOUR SIDES THEREOF,13 THIS SHOWS THAT HE WAS MEASURING FROM THE MIDDLE, TWELVE CUBITS IN EVERY
DIRECTION.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second, you have the sons of Zadok officiating over this Temple. Ezra was a son of Zadok and if you read the book of Ezra you will see that he was the first son of Zakok to be in charge of the second Temple (Ezekiel's Temple.).

Ezekiel 40:46 And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zakok among the sons of Levi, which come near as the LORD to minister unto him. (Also Ezekiel 43:19, 44:15, and 48:11.)

Taken from THE HISTORY OF THE TALMUD, chapter 1, p 6 second paragraph, "Until the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, before which period all the high priests since the erection of the second temple had been of the family of Zakok, King David's high priest (see App.2), and the priests had been also among the sages of the Pharisees and no disputes arose between them as to the interpretation of the law. From the time of Antiochus, however, when the high priesthood passed from the descendants of Zadok to other families, finally coming into the possession of the Maccabees, who were not descendants of the house of Zakok, began to differ from the Pharisees in the interpretation of the Torah, and to explain the texts on the basis of oral tradition."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO the second Temple was the Temple described in Ezekiel. Jesus replaced that Temple, and there is no reason to expect that Jesus will be replaced.

DennisTate
Nov 4th 2018, 10:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nymuvDpQ-Fg


Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is truly helpful to understanding how this could all work out!