PDA

View Full Version : The Mystery of Godliness



ZAB
Aug 20th 2009, 05:42 PM
1 Tim 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..."

Jesus Christ was fully man and yet fully God.

False views:

1.) Greek mythology. Jesus was not a half-God half-man creation, or a demi-god.

2.) Jesus was not God converted into man, nor was He man converted into God. Deity was not humanized, nor was humanity deified.

3.) Jesus was not a man that was merely filled with the Spirit of God, but was God Himself.

4.) This union cannot be compared to a marriage relationship. Though the 2 are joined as one flesh, they are yet separate and distinct persons.

5.) This union cannot be compared to the relationship of the believer with Christ. For these, though one spiritual union, are still 2 separate and distinct persons.

Proper views:

1.) Jesus was one person, having in Himself the union of 2 natures; the nature of God and the nature of man, thus constituting Him the God-Man.

2.) These natures were distinguishable, yet indivisible. inseparably bound together so as to constitute the one personal Christ of God.

Why did He do this?

The reason for the union of Deity and humanity is in order that Christ might fulfill in His one person, that which was separate and distinct in the Old Covenant mediatorial ministry. He was both High Priest and Sacrifice; both Priest and offering.


Z.

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 05:42 PM
You have the best threads.

Firefighter
Aug 20th 2009, 05:47 PM
3.) Jesus was not a man that was merely filled with the Spirit of God, but was God Himself.

You have no idea how happy I am to hear this...:D

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 06:04 PM
You have no idea how happy I am to hear this...:D


Help me out here UM, If Jesus is GOD? Then why does he sit at the right hand of the Father??? why not just one throne???

-SEEKING-
Aug 20th 2009, 06:13 PM
Help me out here UM, If Jesus is GOD? Then why does he sit at the right hand of the Father??? why not just one throne???

Well, Jesus is also a man. Actually The Man. So you have to take into consideration that although Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus the biological human person, did have a beginning. And this Man is at the right hand of God.
Does that make sense?

Firefighter
Aug 20th 2009, 06:20 PM
Ahhhh... the mysteries of God...:D

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 06:24 PM
Well, Jesus is also a man. Actually The Man. So you have to take into consideration that although Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus the biological human person, did have a beginning. And this Man is at the right hand of God.
Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense, But there is still the question if GOD and Jesus are the same, why two thrones???

-SEEKING-
Aug 20th 2009, 06:28 PM
To save me some time. Do you know what specific spricture mentions the 2 thrones?
Thanks.

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 06:30 PM
To save me some time. Do you know what specific spricture mentions the 2 thrones?
Thanks.


Not to out do your question:lol:, but If Jesus sit's at the right hand of the father, what do think he's sitting on a beach chair???

ZAB
Aug 20th 2009, 06:31 PM
Makes perfect sense, But there is still the question if GOD and Jesus are the same, why two thrones???

Because Jesus will forever be distinguished as the Lamb who was slain. The Son of God will forever be distinguished as the One whom God has sent to redeem mankind. And for Him, there shall be a throne.

Heb 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Z.

-SEEKING-
Aug 20th 2009, 06:32 PM
Not to out do you question:lol:, but If Jesus sit's at the right hand of the father, what do think he's sitting on a beach chair???

Hmm. Good point. I was just wondering if there was something specific.

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2009, 06:32 PM
Not to out do you question:lol:, but If Jesus sit's at the right hand of the father, what do think he's sitting on a beach chair???

God is spirit, so he can't sit.

Must be anthropomorphic language to describe the granting of authority and power, which was usually reserved by ancient kings to the one on their right at the table.

ZAB
Aug 20th 2009, 06:33 PM
To save me some time. Do you know what specific spricture mentions the 2 thrones?
Thanks.

Heb 8:1 "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens..."

Z.

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 06:34 PM
God is spirit, so he can't sit.

Must be anthropomorphic language to describe the granting of authority and power, which was usually reserved by ancient kings to the one on their right at the table.


God sit's on a throne of grace, so he just stands by it???:giveup:

-SEEKING-
Aug 20th 2009, 06:35 PM
Heb 8:1 "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens..."

Z.


Hmm. Not to be nit picky but I don't recall the high priest ever sitting on a throne. I could be wrong though. I mean I clearly see one throne here. Maybe I'm just over analyzing.
__________________

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 06:37 PM
Seeking, that could be a whole other thread:idea:

-SEEKING-
Aug 20th 2009, 06:43 PM
Seeking, that could be a whole other thread:idea:

Maybe. I'm just looking for a simple answer on that one though. I really don't remember a high priest sitting on a throne. Do you? My memory is not that good.

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2009, 06:43 PM
God sit's on a throne of grace, so he just stands by it???:giveup:

God the Father is spirit. He does not have a body, so he can't "sit." The phrase "sit at my right hand" is anthropomorphic language that ascribes human reality to God the Father in order to demonstrate the authority given to Christ.

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 06:45 PM
God the Father is spirit. He does not have a body, so he can't "sit." The phrase "sit at my right hand" is anthropomorphic language that ascribes human reality to God the Father in order to demonstrate the authority given to Christ.


So there's God the Spirit and The Holy Spirit???, you had to see that one coming.

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2009, 06:48 PM
So there's God the Spirit and The Holy Spirit???, you had to see that one coming.

I just can't believe this thread.

God the Father is spirit. He has no physical body. He is omnipresent.
God the Son is Jesus Christ, possessing a human (but now glorified) body. He is not omnipresent in his flesh, yet remains omnipresent in spirit.
God the Holy Spirit is spirit as well, having no physical body. He is omnipresent.

All three one yet distinct.

JohnDB
Aug 20th 2009, 06:49 PM
You ever feel like you are having a conversation like...

Who's on first
What's on second

?????

JohnDB
Aug 20th 2009, 06:51 PM
I just can't believe this thread.

God the Father is spirit. He has no physical body. He is omnipresent.
God the Son is Jesus Christ, possessing a human (but now glorified) body. He is not omnipresent in his flesh, yet remains omnipresent in spirit.
God the Holy Spirit is spirit as well, having no physical body. He is omnipresent.

All three one yet distinct.

Hear oh Israel...the Lord, The Lord God is one.

OK...so I thought that I would throw that in for good measure. heh heh hehe:help:

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 06:52 PM
I just can't believe this thread.

God the Father is spirit. He has no physical body. He is omnipresent.
God the Son is Jesus Christ, possessing a human (but now glorified) body. He is not omnipresent in his flesh, yet remains omnipresent in spirit.
God the Holy Spirit is spirit as well, having no physical body. He is omnipresent.

All three one yet distinct.


According to you God is a spirit, then we have the Holy spirit, then we have Jesus the man and the spirit, that's four entities.

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2009, 06:56 PM
According to you God is a spirit, then we have the Holy spirit, then we have Jesus the man and the spirit, that's four entities.

I am not going to bandy words with you.

You either believe the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity or you do not. Jesus is not two separate entities. and no orthodox believer thinks so.

Moxie
Aug 20th 2009, 07:05 PM
TMS,

The trinity can be a hard concept to grasp. The trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus while on earth was both fully human and still fully God. While on earth He was still God the Son. There is no fourth. In essence, God has three roles...Father, Son and Holy Spirit each function in a different way in order to bring us to salvation and to make us more like Christ. Hope that helps.

-SEEKING-
Aug 20th 2009, 07:06 PM
Gentlemen please. Let's take it down a notch. Since I partially started this mess let me state. I do absolutely believe in the Trinity. 100% I was only making mention that there is a Man named Jesus in Heaven as well. 1 Tim. 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

If I am understanding this wrong I'm of course willing to listen to anyone who can explain it to me.

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 07:11 PM
I am not going to bandy words with you.

You either believe the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity or you do not. Jesus is not two separate entities. and no orthodox believer thinks so.


I believe Jesus is The Living Word of God.

John 1:1-3 (KJV) The beggining

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Revelation 19:13 (KJV)


13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

I love simplicity.

Didn't mean to upset you my brother from another mother.

markedward
Aug 20th 2009, 07:25 PM
Makes perfect sense, But there is still the question if GOD and Jesus are the same, why two thrones???Revelation 22.1-3: Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

Your question is logically flawed. You ask "why two thrones"... when Scripture says there is only one throne. The text does not describe one throne "of God" and another throne "of the Lamb". It describes one throne "of God and of the Lamb". There is one throne, not two as you seem to believe. (I notice that when asked to provide Scripture for your belief in two thrones, you were not able to do so, but instead resorted to rhetoric. Not the ideal case to make for your point.

The Mighty Sword,

In order to prevent other users from being confused (including myself), can you please answer the following questions directly, with only a "yes" or a "no":


Do you believe in the One God (YHWH) as he is described in the Scriptures?
Do you believe that the Father is God?
Do you believe that Jesus, the Son of God, the Son of Man, the Word is God?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God?
Do you believe that these three (the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit) are the One God, YHWH?

I don't mean to make assumptions as to how you will answer, but based on your previous posts, I ask that you please answer as clearly and simply as possible... not avoiding giving a direct answer, or avoiding the questions altogether. Doing so will only make me (and others, I'm sure) question your integrity in being able to hold up an honest and straightforward discussion. Please, a simple "yes" or "no" is the only answer I will consider to be straightforward.

Based on your previous answers, I anticipate that your answer to number 3 is probably going to be a "no". Otherwise, you would have had no reason to ask "if Jesus is GOD, why..."

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 07:28 PM
The Mighty Sword,

In order to prevent other users from being confused (including myself), can you please answer the following questions directly, with only a "yes" or a "no":


Do you believe in the One God (YHWH) as he is described in the Scriptures?- Yes
Do you believe that the Father is God?- Yes
Do you believe that Jesus, the Son of God, the Son of Man, the Word is God?-Yes
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God?-Yes
Do you believe that these three (the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit) are the One God, YHWH?-Yes
I don't mean to make assumptions as to how you will answer, but based on your previous posts, I ask that you please answer as clearly and simply as possible... not avoiding giving a direct answer, or avoiding the questions altogether. Doing so will only make me (and others, I'm sure) question your integrity in being able to hold up an honest and straightforward discussion. Please, a simple "yes" or "no" is the only answer I will consider to be straightforward.

All my answers are in bold "Yes"

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 07:29 PM
That was fun, never a dull moment.

third hero
Aug 20th 2009, 07:54 PM
Help me out here UM, If Jesus is GOD? Then why does he sit at the right hand of the Father??? why not just one throne???
IF only BD could see this question. My explanation of what makes up the totality of God best answers this question. Although I can see how a purely trinitarian POV could help explain this as well.

This is my explanation, and I know that it is purely my limited understanding of scripture concerning God.

Lord Jesus is one form, or what many of you say, One person of God. As such, He is God. This places Him in equal status with God.

John 10:30
I and [my] Father are one.

Understand that Lord Jesus is God, just as His Father is God.

With that knowledge, Lord Jesus lets us know that like all of the kingdoms here on earth, in Heaven, there is a hierarchical structure there. Lord Jesus explains it well to us.

John 10:29
My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So you see, although Lord Jesus is God, God the Father is greater than Him. there are other verses that state that Lord Jesus does not his own will, but His Father's will. This does not make Lord Jesus any less GOd than His Father, but it does show that the Holy Father [I mean Father God for those who attach the word "father" to humans, (Matthew 23:9)] is supreme over all. As such, Our Holy Father has placed Lord Jesus in the position as being the intermediary between us and Him, and no one can even have an audience with the Holy Father unless they acknowledge Lord Jesus as His Son.

Consider this as another way of explaining what I understand here.

Holy Father is God of all.
Lord Jesus is God of us all.
Holy Spirit is God given to us who believes.

Lord Jesus follows the will of His Father, as we all are to do. We can not follow God the Father's will unless we follow Lord Jesus. We can not follow Lord Jesus unless we have the help of God with us, which is the Holy Spirit.

All three are God, and when I say God, I mean one God. This is why I hesitate to use the word "person", although it does best describe to most people the nature of God. I use the word form because it makes the most sense to me, whereas the Lord Jesus is of the same substance and nature of God, having in Him the totality of God the Father, who exists at the same time/space continuum as His Father. He is One with His Father. He is separate from His Father, being that He has His own Body, once a spiritual form before He entered Mary's womb, and afterwords gaining a whole new body after His death. This would make him a person, but I want to emphasize the importance of the fact that Lord Jesus is God in every way. That is why I use the word, "form".

Because Lord Jesus has a separate body from His Father, that body has to be accommodated. Hence Lord Jesus has His own throne, at he right-hand of His Father.

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 07:59 PM
Third Hero #31,

That say's it all and it is what I believe, I also believe one cannot put GOD in a box, God just won't have it.

Thank you.

Also, thanks MEdward that was a cute little interview.

third hero
Aug 20th 2009, 07:59 PM
God the Father is spirit. He has no physical body.
Where does it say that God the Father has no body? He is not comprised of flesh and blood, but to the best of my memory, angels don't have flesh and blood either, but they have bodies. When God appeared before Abraham, He had a form, aka a body. It is a spiritual one, but a body nevertheless. As as such, a throne is required for the king to sit on.

Psalm 45:6
Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.

Therefore, if God has a throne, then He has to have a body to sit on it. Even though God is a Spirit being, it does not mean that God does not have a body.

third hero
Aug 20th 2009, 08:04 PM
Revelation 22.1-3: Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

Your question is logically flawed. You ask "why two thrones"... when Scripture says there is only one throne. The text does not describe one throne "of God" and another throne "of the Lamb". It describes one throne "of God and of the Lamb". There is one throne, not two as you seem to believe. (I notice that when asked to provide Scripture for your belief in two thrones, you were not able to do so, but instead resorted to rhetoric. Not the ideal case to make for your point.

I see two thrones in this scripture. The key word is "and". There is a throne for God the Father, and a throne for the Son of God. Also, if there are only one throne, then is Lord Jesus sitting on the armrest of the Father's throne? Logic dictates that if there is a throne for the Father, and Lord Jesus sits at the right-hand of the Father, then at the right-hand of the Father lies the throne of Lord Jesus.

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2009, 08:08 PM
Maybe the throne is symbolic...

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sorry, after the Cherubim thread, I couldn't help myself.

markedward
Aug 20th 2009, 08:11 PM
All my answers are in bold "Yes"Then I gladfully apologize for doubting you on the matter.

May I ask, then, why a few of your previous posts make it appear that you reject the "trinitarian" nature of God?

This post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2177633&postcount=7) makes it seem like you are questioning the belief that Jesus is God.
This post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2177735&postcount=23) (which I would say is you unabashedly twisting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) RabbiKnife's words to mean something they clearly don't mean) makes you appear to not only be rejecting the belief that Jesus is God, but that God does not have a "trinitarian" nature (i.e., that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One God).

But this now brings up one more question in mind for you, then. You previously answered "Yes", you do believe that there is One God, you do believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the One God. But, I just realized I forgot two very important questions:


Do you believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct from one another (the Father is not the Son, and neither of these is the Holy Spirit)?
And that these three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are eternally co-existent?

If your answer is yes to these two questions... then you, by definition, believe in "the Trinity", that is, you believe in the One God's "trinitarian" nature. In which case... why are you arguing against RabbiKnife for his belief in the trinitarian nature of God?

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 08:20 PM
Then I gladfully apologize for doubting you on the matter.

May I ask, then, why a few of your previous posts make it appear that you reject the "trinitarian" nature of God?

This post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2177633&postcount=7) makes it seem like you are questioning the belief that Jesus is God.
This post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2177735&postcount=23) (which I would say is you unabashedly twisting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) RabbiKnife's words to mean something they clearly don't mean) makes you appear to not only be rejecting the belief that Jesus is God, but that God does not have a "trinitarian" nature (i.e., that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One God).

But this now brings up one more question in mind for you, then. You previously answered "Yes", you do believe that there is One God, you do believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the One God. But, I just realized I forgot two very important questions:


Do you believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct from one another (the Father is not the Son, and neither of these is the Holy Spirit)?
And that these three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are eternally co-existent?

If your answer is yes to these two questions... then you, by definition, believe in "the Trinity", that is, you believe in the One God's "trinitarian" nature. In which case... why are you arguing against RabbiKnife for his belief in the trinitarian nature of God?

Ok, Show me in scripture where Jesus Christ is referred (called) to as YWHW, show me in scripture where Jesus is The Holy Sprit, Show me in scripture where GOD is Jesus, show me in scripture where The Holy Sprirt is Jesus ver batum.

Just because I don't think like you or anyone else doesn't make me wrong, It make s me think different, I believe The Father , The Son and The Holy Spirit are in complete agreement about everything making them one.

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2009, 08:23 PM
"Alex, I'll take "Why I don't believe in the Trinity" for $200."

OK, just so we are clear.

I think that answers your question, MarkedWard.

markedward
Aug 20th 2009, 08:24 PM
I see two thrones in this scripture. The key word is "and". There is a throne for God the Father, and a throne for the Son of God. Also, if there are only one throne, then is Lord Jesus sitting on the armrest of the Father's throne? Logic dictates that if there is a throne for the Father, and Lord Jesus sits at the right-hand of the Father, then at the right-hand of the Father lies the throne of Lord Jesus.Revelation 3.21: The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Jesus says very plainly, "I sat down with my Father on his throne." Jesus' throne and the Father's throne are the same single throne.

Hence, as I said before, the text does not describe one throne "of God" and another throne "of the Lamb". It describes one throne "of God and of the Lamb". The problem with your position is you (and The Mighty Sword) have no appealed to Scripture for a basis, but merely to rhetorical argument. I, on the other hand, have shown two points of Scripture that grammatically refer to a single throne, not multiple thrones.

Noun: "throne", singular
Adjective: "of God and of the Lamb"

Grammatically, Revelation 22.1 and 22.3 each refer to a single throne attributed to both "God" and "the Lamb". If you can provide Scripture that explicitly and clearly refers to plural thrones, I would then agree with you. But so far, you haven't.


Where does it say that God the Father has no body? He is not comprised of flesh and blood, but to the best of my memory, angels don't have flesh and blood either, but they have bodies. When God appeared before Abraham, He had a form, aka a body. It is a spiritual one, but a body nevertheless. As as such, a throne is required for the king to sit on.

Psalm 45:6
Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.

Therefore, if God has a throne, then He has to have a body to sit on it. Even though God is a Spirit being, it does not mean that God does not have a body.Regardless of whether your point is correct or not... you're making an erroneous appeal to Scripture. According to Hebrews 1.8, the statement in Psalm 45.6 is the Father speaking to the Son. Psalm 45.6 is about Jesus, not the Father as you are trying to make it appear in your post.

markedward
Aug 20th 2009, 08:35 PM
Ok, Show me in scripture where Jesus Christ is referred (called) to as YWHW, show me in scripture where Jesus is The Holy Sprit, Show me in scripture where GOD is Jesus, show me in scripture where The Holy Sprirt is Jesus ver batum.The Mighty Sword,

You have attributed false things to me. Not once did I say "Jesus is the Holy Spirit" and not once did I say "the Holy Spirit is Jesus". In fact, I said the opposite of what you are claiming I said. I hate to be so blunt, but you are straight-up lying to me about what I said.

But, the things in the post quoted above that I did say are the following:


Jesus Christ is YHWH
Jesus is God

You have asked for me to provide Scripture for these, so I shall:


Jesus Christ is YHWH:

John 8.58: Jesus states "Before Abraham was, I AM." Grammatically, this statement makes zero sense if the words "I am" are read as a verb. But, the statement makes perfect sense if Jesus is applying the name of God, "I AM", to himself. [Exodus 3.14: [God] said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"] Jesus is here equating himself with YHWH.
Hebrews 1.8: The author of Hebrews, in this verse, quotes Psalm 45.6. Psalm 45 is a psalm that is explicitly stated to be about YHWH. The author of Hebrews, then, is equating Jesus with YHWH by applying a psalm about YHWH to Jesus.
Hebrews 1.12: The author of Hebrews, in this verse, quotes Psalm 102.25. As before, this is a psalm about YHWH. The author of Hebrews is against equating Jesus with YHWH.


Jesus Christ is God:

This shouldn't even need to be explained further: the above three passages are all that is needed to make this point. They equate Jesus with YHWH. YHWH is God. Hence, Jesus is God. (Not to mention the fact that Hebrews 1.8 outright calls "the Son" as "O God".)


I ask again, The Mighty Sword:


Do you believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct from one another (the Father is not the Son, and neither of these is the Holy Spirit)?
And that these three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are eternally co-existent?

third hero
Aug 20th 2009, 08:37 PM
Revelation 3.21: The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Jesus says very plainly, "I sat down with my Father on his throne." Jesus' throne and the Father's throne are the same single throne.

According to your logic, all of the saints will sit on the Father's throne, which is where Lord Jesus's throne is located. I am sorry, but grammar in Revelation 3:21 does not dictate that the conquerors will sit on Father God's throne. I can not dismiss the scripture that stats that Lord Jesus sits at the right-hand of God. That would entail that there is another throne at the right-hand side of the Ancient of Days. That is where the Lord's throne s located. It is not a separate throne, in terms of it representing another kingdom, but it is a separate throne in the fact that it has to house the body of the Lord Jesus. Jesus is not sitting on Father God's armrest. He is sitting on a throne, on the right-hand side of the Father, ruling the Father's kingdom with Him.

Each conqueror will sit at Lord Jesus's right-hand side of His throne, just as Lord Jesus is sitting at the right-hand of His Father. This is not saying that they are all sitting on one throne, but the fact that each person will receive a throne at the right-hand of Lord Jesus. I can not hyperliteralize this verse, as you do.


Hence, as I said before, the text does not describe one throne "of God" and another throne "of the Lamb". It describes one throne "of God and of the Lamb". The problem with your position is you (and The Mighty Sword) have no appealed to Scripture for a basis, but merely to rhetorical argument. I, on the other hand, have shown two points of Scripture that grammatically refer to a single throne, not multiple thrones.

Noun: "throne", singular
Adjective: "of God and of the Lamb"

Grammatically, Revelation 22.1 and 22.3 each refer to a single throne attributed to both "God" and "the Lamb". If you can provide Scripture that explicitly and clearly refers to plural thrones, I would then agree with you. But so far, you haven't.

Regardless of whether your point is correct or not... you're making an erroneous appeal to Scripture. According to Hebrews 1.8, the statement in Psalm 45.6 is the Father speaking to the Son. Psalm 45.6 is about Jesus, not the Father as you are trying to make it appear in your post.

Of course, I disagree with you, because I place value on the word "and" which makes plural what was once viewed as singular.

third hero
Aug 20th 2009, 08:39 PM
"Alex, I'll take "Why I don't believe in the Trinity" for $200."

OK, just so we are clear.

I think that answers your question, MarkedWard.
Explain to me how three persons can sit on one seat. Now this could be interesting.

markedward
Aug 20th 2009, 08:41 PM
I can not dismiss the scripture that stats that Lord Jesus sits at the right-hand of God.And where did I say that I was dismissing that Scripture?

Jesus said plainly, "I... sat down with my Father on his throne".

Why is it that when I believe the grammatical order of Scripture when it only ever refers to a throne in the singular you accuse me of "hyper-literalizing" the text, yet when you require there to be multiple thrones based on the "right hand" statements, you aren't "hyper-literalizing" the text? This is an unfair statement to throw at me.

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 08:46 PM
The Mighty Sword,

You have attributed false things to me. Not once did I say "Jesus is the Holy Spirit" and not once did I say "the Holy Spirit is Jesus". In fact, I said the opposite of what you are claiming I said. I hate to be so blunt, but you are straight-up lying to me about what I said.

But, the things in the post quoted above that I did say are the following:


Jesus Christ is YHWH
Jesus is God
You have asked for me to provide Scripture for these, so I shall:


Jesus Christ is YHWH:

John 8.58: Jesus states "Before Abraham was, I AM." Grammatically, this statement makes zero sense if the words "I am" are read as a verb. But, the statement makes perfect sense if Jesus is applying the name of God, "I AM", to himself. [Exodus 3.14: [God] said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"] Jesus is here equating himself with YHWH.
Hebrews 1.8: The author of Hebrews, in this verse, quotes Psalm 45.6. Psalm 45 is a psalm that is explicitly stated to be about YHWH. The author of Hebrews, then, is equating Jesus with YHWH by applying a psalm about YHWH to Jesus.
Hebrews 1.12: The author of Hebrews, in this verse, quotes Psalm 102.25. As before, this is a psalm about YHWH. The author of Hebrews is against equating Jesus with YHWH.

Jesus Christ is God:

This shouldn't even need to be explained further: the above three passages are all that is needed to make this point. They equate Jesus with YHWH. YHWH is God. Hence, Jesus is God. (Not to mention the fact that Hebrews 1.8 outright calls "the Son" as "O God".)



In other words you can't!!! If you are going to make a claim, such as Christ is GOD show me scripture stating Jesus with YHWH as Jesus is YHWH, but can't show me a scrpture that Christ is the Holy spirit but making the claim they are the same, you see Mark if Jesus is GOD and The Holy Spirit is the spirit of GOD how can they not be the same and if they are show me the scripture

The Father sent The Holy Spirit to the world in Jesus name after Christ ascended to heaven, not

"I sent me in my name"

I see things completely different than you, but I won't insult you and tell you that you're wrong, ask yourself could we both be right???

As Christians we should stand on all scripture, not just what is convenient such as ,

1 Corinthians 11:3 (King James Version)
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Rainman1
Aug 20th 2009, 08:54 PM
Maybe the throne is symbolic...

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sorry, after the Cherubim thread, I couldn't help myself.

just sitting back waiting for it :)

RabbiKnife
Aug 20th 2009, 08:57 PM
Explain to me how three persons can sit on one seat. Now this could be interesting.

Maybe it's more like a couch. Or a sectional. I cannot believe this discussion.

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 08:58 PM
just sitting back waiting for it :)


Keep it up and I'll un/rep you :lol:

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 09:00 PM
Maybe it's more like a couch. Or a sectional. I cannot believe this discussion.

You're right!!! I'm out. Peace.

third hero
Aug 20th 2009, 09:33 PM
Maybe it's more like a couch. Or a sectional. I cannot believe this discussion.
You know, I am more inclined to believe that than a one-seat throne housing all of humanity that follows Lord Jesus.

third hero
Aug 20th 2009, 09:42 PM
just sitting back waiting for it :)
Suddenly, I am on that sectional with Rabbiknife, and rainman1 waiting for the inevitable....:saint::lol:

Firefighter
Aug 20th 2009, 09:51 PM
Just to muddy the waters a bit...

If God is omnipresent, wouldn't that mean that Jesus is sitting on his left side too???

Or better yet, Jesus sits at God's right side, but God is sitting a Jesus' right side, left side, in front of, and behind.

:lol:

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 10:00 PM
Is God and the Holy Spirit The same?
Is Jesus and God The same? Jesus is GOD
so by your definition Christ is the Holy Spirit.

Show me the scripture, you can't because it doesn't exist.

markedward
Aug 20th 2009, 10:04 PM
Is God and the Holy Spirit The same?I said the Holy Spirit is God. I never said the Father and the Holy Spirit were the same.

Is Jesus and God The same? Jesus is GODI said Jesus, the Son of God, is God. I never said the Son and the Father were the same.

so by your definition Christ is the Holy Spirit.You're putting words in my mouth, which is bearing of false witness.

Firefighter
Aug 20th 2009, 10:07 PM
Oh for Pete's sake you two sound like a married couple...


...and the answer to your next question is "No, my hypocrisy knows no bounds.":lol:

dljc
Aug 20th 2009, 10:29 PM
Just to muddy the waters a bit...Just to muddy the water a little further, He's watching this thread too. ;)

The Mighty Sword
Aug 20th 2009, 10:30 PM
I said the Holy Spirit is God. I never said the Father and the Holy Spirit were the same.
I said Jesus, the Son of God, is God. I never said the Son and the Father were the same.
You're putting words in my mouth, which is bearing of false witness.


I respect what you believe, I'll give you that my brother in Christ.