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Joey Porter
Aug 24th 2009, 03:30 PM
John 5
39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me

I often wonder about how much we are still not seeing in the scriptures pertaining to how Yahshua was foreshadowed in the writings of the Old Testament.

It's interesting that He rebuked the pharisees and even the disciples for not recognizing things about Him that were written in the scriptures, even though there is nothing open or obvious in the OT writings that specifically state any details about Him, other than in types, shadows, and parables.

It seems clear that Yahweh has chosen to communicate with man not in direct and specific and obvious terms, but in masked ways.

One "type of Christ" that we know of was Adam. Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15
45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being;" the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.


One question that arises is: Did Adam deliberately sin and taste death.

The scriptures do tell us that Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as Eve had been.

2 Corinthians 11
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning

1 Timothy 2
14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

With that in mind, and knowing that scripture also tells us that Adam was a type of Christ, it seems to be that we can gather that Adam did in fact knowingly and willingly accept facing the consequences of his disobedience.

We can look at some paralleles.

We know that scripture tells us that Yahshua will be returning for His elect, who will be His "bride."

Revelation 19
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.

Well, what does scripture tell us that Christ did for His bride?

Ephesians 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Giving Himself up for His bride was a willing act on His behalf. And what did He have to do to carry this out?

Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Coming out of heaven (the garden of Eden represents heaven), Yahshua tasted death for His bride, sacrificing Himself on account of her sins.

Is this not exactly what Adam did? The punishment for eating the forbidden fruit was death, a death that involved being removed from the garden.

Yahweh said:

Genesis 2
18The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone.

If Adam had not eaten the fruit, He would have once again been alone in the garden. So on behalf of his bride, he sacrificed himself and tasted death for her, to remain with her.

Some may object that an analogy can not fit here with Christ because Adam sinned and Christ did not sin, but I would say that no type or shadow of Christ would be 100% concrete. And yet even in this case we can draw some scriptural parallels:

Romans 8
3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering

2 Corinthians 5
21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Yahshua willingly chose to leave heaven (the garden) in the likeness of sinful flesh, taking sin upon Himself, tasting death for the sake of his bride whose sin had caused her to face the punishment of not being allowed in the garden.

If He had not willingly come and died in sinful flesh, there would be no hope for mankind to be saved, meaning that He would have had to spend eternity in heaven alone, with no bride, just as Adam would have had to remain alone in the garden without Eve.

However, while Adam was not permitted to re-enter the garden with His bride, it is the work of Christ that will overcome Adam's shortfall, allowing a bride to be brought into the eternal heavenly garden, restoring what was corrupted in the beginning.

Romans 5
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.


It is the righteousness of the Last Adam that nullifies the disobedience of the First Adam, allowing man to once again enter the TRUE garden, the eternal heavenly garden. The First Adam sacrificed himself to be with his bride outside of the garden, while the Last Adam left the garden and sacrified Himself to bring His bride into the garden.

And one more similarity that can be pointed out:

It is interesting that even though Eve was the first to sin, it is actually the disobedience of Adam that is blamed for the death for all men.

Romans 5
19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

So it is Adam who not only suffered death for the sin of his bride, but also receives the blame for the sins of all men, even as Yahshua suffered death for His bride, taking upon Himself the sins of all men.

I didn't mean for that to get so long winded, but this is something I have been pondering for a while now.

Feel free to discuss, disagree, etc.

divaD
Aug 24th 2009, 03:43 PM
John 5
39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me

I often wonder about how much we are still not seeing in the scriptures pertaining to how Yahshua was foreshadowed in the writings of the Old Testament.

It's interesting that He rebuked the pharisees and even the disciples for not recognizing things about Him that were written in the scriptures, even though there is nothing open or obvious in the OT writings that specifically state any details about Him, other than in types, shadows, and parables.

It seems clear that Yahweh has chosen to communicate with man not in direct and specific and obvious terms, but in masked ways.

One "type of Christ" that we know of was Adam. Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15
45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being;" the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.


One question that arises is: Did Adam deliberately sin and taste death.

The scriptures do tell us that Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as Eve had been.

2 Corinthians 11
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning

1 Timothy 2
14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

With that in mind, and knowing that scripture also tells us that Adam was a type of Christ, it seems to be that we can gather that Adam did in fact knowingly and willingly accept facing the consequences of his disobedience.

We can look at some paralleles.

We know that scripture tells us that Yahshua will be returning for His elect, who will be His "bride."

Revelation 19
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.

Well, what does scripture tell us that Christ did for His bride?

Ephesians 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Giving Himself up for His bride was a willing act on His behalf. And what did He have to do to carry this out?

Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Coming out of heaven (the garden of Eden represents heaven), Yahshua tasted death for His bride, sacrificing Himself on account of her sins.

Is this not exactly what Adam did? The punishment for eating the forbidden fruit was death, a death that involved being removed from the garden.

Yahweh said:

Genesis 2
18The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone.

If Adam had not eaten the fruit, He would have once again been alone in the garden. So on behalf of his bride, he sacrificed himself and tasted death for her, to remain with her.

Some may object that an analogy can not fit here with Christ because Adam sinned and Christ did not sin, but I would say that no type or shadow of Christ would be 100% concrete. And yet even in this case we can draw some scriptural parallels:

Romans 8
3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering

2 Corinthians 5
21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Yahshua willingly chose to leave heaven (the garden) in the likeness of sinful flesh, taking sin upon Himself, tasting death for the sake of his bride whose sin had caused her to face the punishment of not being allowed in the garden.

If He had not willingly come and died in sinful flesh, there would be no hope for mankind to be saved, meaning that He would have had to spend eternity in heaven alone, with no bride, just as Adam would have had to remain alone in the garden without Eve.

However, while Adam was not permitted to re-enter the garden with His bride, it is the work of Christ that will overcome Adam's shortfall, allowing a bride to be brought into the eternal heavenly garden, restoring what was corrupted in the beginning.

Romans 5
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.


It is the righteousness of the Last Adam that nullifies the disobedience of the First Adam, allowing man to once again enter the TRUE garden, the eternal heavenly garden. The First Adam sacrificed himself to be with his bride outside of the garden, while the Last Adam left the garden and sacrified Himself to bring His bride into the garden.

And one more similarity that can be pointed out:

It is interesting that even though Eve was the first to sin, it is actually the disobedience of Adam that is blamed for the death for all men.

Romans 5
19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

So it is Adam who not only suffered death for the sin of his bride, but also receives the blame for the sins of all men, even as Yahshua suffered death for His bride, taking upon Himself the sins of all men.

I didn't mean for that to get so long winded, but this is something I have been pondering for a while now.

Feel free to discuss, disagree, etc.




I'll put it to you this way..I've discussed this very thing on other boards, and my conclusions basically went over their heads, so I pretty much dropped the subject at that point. What i'm trying to say is this...your conclusions are almost identical to mine. I find that truly amazing. Since the Bible indicates that Adam wasn't deceived, then yes, I believe Adam sacrificed himself for his bride, just as Jesus sacrificed Himself for His bride.

daughter
Aug 24th 2009, 03:54 PM
The difference being that when Adam did it, it was a sin. He put his bride above obedience to God, in other words, he made an idol of her.

When Christ sacrifices Himself for His Bride, He did it out of pure love, and in obedience to His Father.

In other words, what was an act of sinful disobedience on Adam's part is redeemed by Christ on the cross.

divaD
Aug 24th 2009, 04:24 PM
The difference being that when Adam did it, it was a sin. He put his bride above obedience to God, in other words, he made an idol of her.

When Christ sacrifices Himself for His Bride, He did it out of pure love, and in obedience to His Father.

In other words, what was an act of sinful disobedience on Adam's part is redeemed by Christ on the cross.




Actually you seem to be missing the point, because speaking for myself, this is not the way I understand it.

The first Adam gave up his life for his bride. The 2nd Adam also gave up his life for his bride, but this time in order to save His bride.
The first Adam couldn't save his bride, he could only give up his life for her. Wouldn't that be a sacrifice? would not Adam have still lived forever in the garden and his bride cast out of it?

The 2nd Adam did both, He gave up His life, and He saved His bride at the same time.

In both cases, with the 1st Adam and with the 2nd Adam, love for their bride was what motivated each to do what each did. I'm certainly not suggesting that what Adam did was right, but I do believe he was motivated by love for his bride. I'm not certain how you conclude he made an idol out of his bride. Afterall, God did make Eve for Adam. It would only be natural that Adam would want Eve by his side, even if it meant that he would now have to die with her in order for her to remain by his side. That sounds like a sacrifice to me.

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2009, 04:48 PM
I think your study is interesting. I see something similar but different. Had the first Adam gave up his life for his bride, he would have died for her like the second Adam. We know from OT law that the husband could nullify a vow the wife took. We know that God looks at authority in a very interesting way. Because Christ is righteous then so am I. Because Adam was a sinner, then so was I. Both my guilt and my redemption come about through the head of the household.

God also showed Adam that when he put him in a deep sleep, that from death, can come life. It was only after the deep sleep that a wife was given. The same with the second Adam. Had the first Adam ate from the Tree of Life instead of the other tree, Adam would have passed the test and known what to do next. Adam could have redeemed Eve but he was selfish and sinned. God sent a second Adam to redeem mankind that was not selfish. The second Adam did what the first Adam refused to do.

Oh, one other little tid bit. Eve was the first being that was life from life. Just as we, as Christ's bride, get our life from His life.

Grace,

Mark

ZAB
Aug 24th 2009, 04:48 PM
John 5
39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me

I often wonder about how much we are still not seeing in the scriptures pertaining to how Yahshua was foreshadowed in the writings of the Old Testament.

It's interesting that He rebuked the pharisees and even the disciples for not recognizing things about Him that were written in the scriptures, even though there is nothing open or obvious in the OT writings that specifically state any details about Him, other than in types, shadows, and parables.

It seems clear that Yahweh has chosen to communicate with man not in direct and specific and obvious terms, but in masked ways.

One "type of Christ" that we know of was Adam. Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15
45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being;" the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.


One question that arises is: Did Adam deliberately sin and taste death.

The scriptures do tell us that Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as Eve had been.

2 Corinthians 11
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning

1 Timothy 2
14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

With that in mind, and knowing that scripture also tells us that Adam was a type of Christ, it seems to be that we can gather that Adam did in fact knowingly and willingly accept facing the consequences of his disobedience.

We can look at some paralleles.

We know that scripture tells us that Yahshua will be returning for His elect, who will be His "bride."

Revelation 19
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.

Well, what does scripture tell us that Christ did for His bride?

Ephesians 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Giving Himself up for His bride was a willing act on His behalf. And what did He have to do to carry this out?

Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Coming out of heaven (the garden of Eden represents heaven), Yahshua tasted death for His bride, sacrificing Himself on account of her sins.

Is this not exactly what Adam did? The punishment for eating the forbidden fruit was death, a death that involved being removed from the garden.

Yahweh said:

Genesis 2
18The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone.

If Adam had not eaten the fruit, He would have once again been alone in the garden. So on behalf of his bride, he sacrificed himself and tasted death for her, to remain with her.

Some may object that an analogy can not fit here with Christ because Adam sinned and Christ did not sin, but I would say that no type or shadow of Christ would be 100% concrete. And yet even in this case we can draw some scriptural parallels:

Romans 8
3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering

2 Corinthians 5
21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Yahshua willingly chose to leave heaven (the garden) in the likeness of sinful flesh, taking sin upon Himself, tasting death for the sake of his bride whose sin had caused her to face the punishment of not being allowed in the garden.

If He had not willingly come and died in sinful flesh, there would be no hope for mankind to be saved, meaning that He would have had to spend eternity in heaven alone, with no bride, just as Adam would have had to remain alone in the garden without Eve.

However, while Adam was not permitted to re-enter the garden with His bride, it is the work of Christ that will overcome Adam's shortfall, allowing a bride to be brought into the eternal heavenly garden, restoring what was corrupted in the beginning.

Romans 5
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.


It is the righteousness of the Last Adam that nullifies the disobedience of the First Adam, allowing man to once again enter the TRUE garden, the eternal heavenly garden. The First Adam sacrificed himself to be with his bride outside of the garden, while the Last Adam left the garden and sacrified Himself to bring His bride into the garden.

And one more similarity that can be pointed out:

It is interesting that even though Eve was the first to sin, it is actually the disobedience of Adam that is blamed for the death for all men.

Romans 5
19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

So it is Adam who not only suffered death for the sin of his bride, but also receives the blame for the sins of all men, even as Yahshua suffered death for His bride, taking upon Himself the sins of all men.

I didn't mean for that to get so long winded, but this is something I have been pondering for a while now.

Feel free to discuss, disagree, etc.


While this makes for an interesting discussion, I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. Could you clarify why it would matter if your conclusions are true or not? Thanks :)

Also, we must remember that there are no perfect types. The Greek word tupos (type) means, "an imprint". It resembles only portions of the actual antitype; it is not an exact representation. So, while a lot of qualities may be consistent between the 1st and 2nd Adam, not every single detail of their lives, acts, etc will be identical.

blessings,
Z.

webhead
Aug 24th 2009, 04:56 PM
I think your study is interesting. I see something similar but different. Had the first Adam gave up his life for his bride, he would have died for her like the second Adam. We know from OT law that the husband could nullify a vow the wife took. We know that God looks at authority in a very interesting way. Because Christ is righteous then so am I. Because Adam was a sinner, then so was I. Both my guilt and my redemption come about through the head of the household.

God also showed Adam that when he put him in a deep sleep, that from death, can come life. It was only after the deep sleep that a wife was given. The same with the second Adam. Had the first Adam ate from the Tree of Life instead of the other tree, Adam would have passed the test and known what to do next. Adam could have redeemed Eve but he was selfish and sinned. God sent a second Adam to redeem mankind that was not selfish. The second Adam did what the first Adam refused to do.

Oh, one other little tid bit. Eve was the first being that was life from life. Just as we, as Christ's bride, get our life from His life.

Grace,

Mark

Thanks for this post.:hug:

And remember, the first Adam was in the image of God.

The second Adam was God.

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2009, 04:57 PM
Thanks for this post.:hug:

And remember, the first Adam was in the image of God.

The second Adam was God.

That is correct. I am glad you pointed it out.

Joey Porter
Aug 24th 2009, 05:04 PM
I'll put it to you this way..I've discussed this very thing on other boards, and my conclusions basically went over their heads, so I pretty much dropped the subject at that point. What i'm trying to say is this...your conclusions are almost identical to mine. I find that truly amazing. Since the Bible indicates that Adam wasn't deceived, then yes, I believe Adam sacrificed himself for his bride, just as Jesus sacrificed Himself for His bride.

Well I guess we're either both onto something or both crazy! Either way it's nice to have some company.

Actually, I think there is some truth in each of your posts (Diva and Daughter).

They key is us understanding Adam's motivation for his disobedience. Adam's act was a sin, regardless of his motivation, even if his motivation was love for his bride. But it was an imprerfect act of love carried out by a man of the flesh.

We know that he wasn't deceived, and we also know that Yahweh said to him:

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree...

So Adam was held accountable for listening to his wife and eating the fruit. But the question is what was his motivation for doing so? I believe there is a good chance he may have done it willingly, not for the sake of disobedience or rebellion, but for the sake of his bride. Although, scripture doesn't tell us.

Either way, the similarities between the "fall of man" and Christ's redemptive work for His bride are too obvious to dismiss.

This could also be why Adam is the one who receives the blame for the fall, even though it was Eve who first transgressed - because Even sinned due to being deceived while Adam sinned purposely.

Also because the man is the head of his wife, just as Christ is the head of the church, and the head will either get the glory or the blame for what is carried out. Christ's bride gives glory to its head (Christ Himself) for its good deeds, and Eve's head (Adam) received blame for her sinful deed.

And ultimately, Yahshua's head (the Father) receives the glory for His deeds.

John 14
13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

The head is always the responsible party - whether for glory or blame.

webhead
Aug 24th 2009, 05:14 PM
So Adam was held accountable for listening to his wife and eating the fruit. But the question is what was his motivation for doing so? I believe there is a good chance he may have done it willingly, not for the sake of disobedience or rebellion, but for the sake of his bride. Although, scripture doesn't tell us.


You are correct. Scripture never gives Adams motivation for sinning.

Scripture never tells us Adam's motivation for sinning, and it doesn't matter any way, sin is sin, no matter the motivation.

If I sin because I think it helps my wife in some way, does God say it's Ok?

I wish it worked this way, LOL.:lol: Then I could blame all of my sins on my wife.:hmm:

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2009, 05:17 PM
But the question is what was his motivation for doing so? I believe there is a good chance he may have done it willingly, not for the sake of disobedience or rebellion, but for the sake of his bride. Although, scripture doesn't tell us.

Problem is, real love doesn't involve sin. Only a selfish "love" does (which is not love at all). I think Adam could have selflessly redeemed his wife but chose not to. So God sent Jesus (who is also God) to do that. The second Adam did what the first Adam should have done.

Grace,

Mark

RabbiKnife
Aug 24th 2009, 05:19 PM
What does motive have to do with sinning?

Sin, by its very definition, is a choice to disobey.

Adam chose to disobey. Why he chose to disobey is immaterial, and certainly does not mitigate his choice.

notuptome
Aug 24th 2009, 05:43 PM
What does motive have to do with sinning?

Sin, by its very definition, is a choice to disobey.

Adam chose to disobey. Why he chose to disobey is immaterial, and certainly does not mitigate his choice.
Adam choose to join Eve at the expense of his relationship with God. A bad choice indeed. But when it comes to women how many men across to ages have made the right decision?

When asked by flesh of his flesh how could Adam resist?

Adam certainly underestimated the long term consequences of his choice. Was Adam predestined to make the wrong choice? Or was it Gods will that Adam should sin so that God might send His Son in time and in the likeness of man to redeem mankind?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RabbiKnife
Aug 24th 2009, 05:51 PM
God's will that someone should sin?

Not in a gazillion years.

moonglow
Aug 24th 2009, 05:55 PM
Problem is, real love doesn't involve sin. Only a selfish "love" does (which is not love at all). I think Adam could have selflessly redeemed his wife but chose not to. So God sent Jesus (who is also God) to do that. The second Adam did what the first Adam should have done.

Grace,

Mark

I agree...Adam did nothing at all to help his wife..he didn't save her from anything, he should have corrected her actually...that might have redeemed her. See God told Adam about the tree ...Adam then passed that information onto his wife and wasn't very clear about what God said. If Adam truly loved Eve with the holiness a husband should have towards his wife, he would have made sure she understood exactly what God said and protected her from being tempted in the first place. After the fact he still could have corrected her. Instead he sinned willingly, with his eyes wide open...choosing to listen to his wife (and satan) over God. This was no honorable act at all. He did nothing but seal his wife's fate and his too.

David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=003)
e. To the woman: why did Satan choose to bring the attack against Eve? Because he perceived she was more vulnerable to attack, since she did not receive the command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil directly from God but through Adam (2:15-17).

i. Perhaps Satan knew by observation Adam didn't do an effective job in communicating to Eve what the Lord had told him. This failure on Adam's part made Eve more vulnerable to temptation.

ii. Satan will often attack a chain at its weakest link; he is getting at Adam by tempting Eve. The stronger ones in a "chain" must expect attack against weaker links and support them against those attacks.

iii. It was also in God's plan to allow Satan to tempt Eve this way. If Adam would have sinned first, and if he had given the fruit to Eve, she might have a partial excuse before God: "I was simply obeying the head of our home. When he gave me the fruit, I ate of it."

f. Has God indeed said: Satan's first attack is leveled against the Word of God. If he can get Eve confused about what God has said, or doubting what God has said, then the battle is partially won.

i. From the beginning, Satan has tried to undermine God's people by undermining God's Word. He can undermine just as effectively by getting us to neglect God's Word as by getting us to doubt it.

g. Satan takes God's positive command (Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat [Genesis 2:16-17]) and rephrases it in a negative way: "God won't let you eat of every tree."

2. (2-3) Eve's reply to the serpent.

a. Eve's first mistake was in even carrying on a discussion with the serpent. We are called to talk to the devil, but never to have a discussion with him. We simply and strongly tell him, "The Lord rebuke you!" (Jude 9)

b. Eve's knowledge of what she should not do is partially correct, but what she doesn't seem to know makes her all the more vulnerable to deception.

i. Eve does not seem to know the name of this tree; she only calls it the tree in the midst of the garden, instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17).

ii. Eve misquotes God's command to Adam; you shall not eat it and lest you die are close enough, but she adds to the command and puts words in God's mouth when she says nor shall you touch it. Not that it was a bad idea to completely avoid the temptation; no good could come from massaging the fruit you're not supposed to eat. But it is a dangerous thing to teach the doctrines of man as if they are the commandments of God (Matthew 15:9).

iii. Clarke on nor shall you touch it: "Some Jewish writers . . . state that as soon as the woman had asserted this, the serpent pushed her against the tree and said, 'See, you have touched it, and are still alive; you may therefore safely eat of the fruit, for surely you shall not die.'"

c. This lack of knowledge on Eve's part is undoubtedly to be laid at the door of her head, Adam. He did a poor job of relating the word God gave him to his wife, Eve.

i. We can almost picture Adam telling Eve, "See that tree in the middle of the garden? Don't touch it or God says we'll die!" While this is better than saying nothing, what Adam didn't explain made a vulnerable place where Satan could attack.

d. Why was God so concerned about a tree and its fruit? Isn't this a small thing to hinge the destiny of the human race and all creation on? No. The tree was nothing more than a restraint on Adam and Eve. It reminded them they were not God, that God had a legitimate claim on their obedience, and that they were responsible to Him.

3. (4-5) Satan's direct challenge to God's Word.

a. Satan has effectively laid the groundwork: he drew Eve into a discussion with him, he has planted the seed of doubt about God's Word in her, and he has exposed Eve's incomplete understanding of God's Word. Now he moves in for the kill, with an outright contradiction of what God has said.

i. Satan can only effectively work when he has established a foothold. No one falls like Adam and Eve will fall, "all of a sudden." A foundation has been laid.

ii. This is why we are called to never give place to the devil (Ephesians 4:27); why Jesus could say, "Satan has nothing in Me." (John 14:30) (read the rest at the link..its a great study)

God bless

notuptome
Aug 24th 2009, 06:15 PM
God's will that someone should sin?

Not in a gazillion years.
James agrees with your astute assesment. Jas 1:13

Yet God permitted Adam to sin.

Did Adam in his state of innocence understand death?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

GeorgeLiotta
Oct 6th 2018, 07:12 PM
James agrees with your astute assesment. Jas 1:13

Yet God permitted Adam to sin.

Did Adam in his state of innocence understand death?

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Roger,This article I wrote is my understanding

What Is Going On It Feels Like the World Is Falling Apart by George Liotta

All over the world people are eating, drinking, marrying, having children and are unaware that they are unplugged!!
We all see sickness, pain and sorrow, hatred, murders, wars. The violence towards one another is increasing, much like the days of Noah. On the other side we see the many good things of life, and the beauty of the Gods creation. (Very hard to reconcile) People look to governments; more laws are made and quickly broken. The World laments the way things are but they keep getting worse. Every day some new catastrophe! People Cry Out! “Do Something! Do Something! They must do something”!

From Adam & Eve’s choice to follow Satan till this present moment, all of mankind is born spiritually dead. We are living out the choice and continue to follow the lies of Satan. First there was only GOOD, and then words like shame, betrayal, envy, murder, confusion, entered People’s vocabulary: The thought seeds of Satan! Mankind is experiencing first hand why God’s way, is the way and what the difference is. We are witnesses, along with the Angelic Host to the unfolding revelation of God Himself and His plan for the ages.
Most people are unplugged from God the very source of life and are following their own desires. Christ came to plug us back in and wash the mud from our lives: It’s you who must do something! He died to give you life, reach out to Him!

They, the governments and leaders of the World and We the peoples are incapable of fixing the problems caused by sin, the mess man has made of the world playing god, following the god of this world Satan. But Mankind blinded by him, persistently thinks they can! Just look at the news every day, they say “We need More! More laws, More money, More war” They and we don’t have a clue, but of course turning to God is out of the question. Proverbs 14:12 “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is destruction and death”. The blood stained and broken body of Jesus shows us the way of this world. It rejects Him to follow lies because that is our nature without Christ.
John 14:6 Jesus says “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father, but through me”.

Paul says in II Cor 4:3-4 “if the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. He is God in the Flesh and has always existed; independent of man, angels, the universe, or even time itself. He came to save you.

Paul tells us in Romans 5: 19-21: because Adam disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because Christ obeyed God, many will be made righteous. The Law was given so everyone could see how sinful they were. But the more we see our sinfulness, the more we see God’s abounding grace forgiving us. Before: sin ruled over all men and brought death to them, but now God’s kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. If we will accept it !

In John 3:1-21 Nicodemus wants to know who Jesus is, he has seen all the miracles and knows he is a teacher and God is with him. Jesus tells him “you must be born again, that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit” Man can reproduce other men but the Spirit gives life from God. Nicodemus a teacher of the Jewish law, a religious guy, went to synagogue (church) on every occasion He didn’t really understand what was happening on earth, he was unplugged! He thought being a Religious Guy trying his very best to be good, that God would grade on the curve and let him enter His kingdom by his own good works. What Nicodemus did not understand is that Faith in Christ’s Work on our behalf, not our effort, is the only way to enter Gods Kingdom.
You too can be born again! Sin’s hold on you will be broken, your eyes will be opened and then you will start to understand the spiritual truths of God. Ask Him!



Jesus says in Matt.7: 13-14 “Heaven can be entered only through the narrow gate! The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide enough for the many that choose its easy way. But the Gateway to Life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

In Acts 4:12 Peter says: There is salvation in no one else! Under all heaven there is no other name but Jesus for men to call upon to save them.” Certainly not The World’s Way “When I get to the pearly gates if my good works out weigh the bad things I’ve done, I’m Ok with God” that is being religious and simply is not true.

1 Peter 1:19-21 God paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, His sinless, spotless Lamb.
God chose him for this purpose long before the world began, but when the time was right, in these last days he brought Him, as a blessing to you. Because of this, your trust can be in God who raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory. Now your faith and hope can rest in him alone, and at the proper time, we will be resurrected too. Do all the problems of life suddenly disappear No! But Jesus will be with you to help, lead and equip you to help others, His peace and joy will fill your heart and never leave you.

This present world system and our very way of thinking, is corrupted by Satan the author of this present darkness and cannot be saved! Adam and Eve were the only two people to know what it felt like to be sinless. They must have been beautiful, glowing like a new born baby. Satan continues to lead mankind away from God until Jesus comes. This duality of thought, called double minded will not last forever; God can give you a single purpose mind focused on Him. Ask HIM! God is following His plan to save us from ourselves that was formulated before the foundation of the world. (I Peter 1:18-21)

In Rev. 21- 22 Great News! All things will be made new, No Sun No Moon No Darkness, Death, Pain, Sorrow and Satan are gone; the only Light is that of Christ, the True light of the world; A New Heaven and New Earth, Time is gone and Eternity has begun. All Things both on Earth and in Heaven have been Reconciled under Christ. Amen!

In II Peter 3:10 Peter said “the day of the Lord, speaking of His second coming, will come as a thief in the night (after the Millennium) the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. I do not believe Peter actually understood there would be a 2000yr gap for the “Age of Grace”. But this Grace Period will end. I believe soon, reach out to Him!

One might ask. Why did God choose this path of FREE WILL leading to both joy and sorrow, why not robot- like beings?
The Amazing Answer: He wants a two way relationship with us. He equipped us with a Mind to reason, a Will to decide for ourselves and Emotions to Love and put knowledge of Him in our hearts. God is the one who breathed his own life into us, not aliens or meteors, and God gave us stewardship of this world. He gave us the power to create music, write poetry, and build great skyscrapers and great inventions, all from our Father. We are like God in so many ways. His Desire is for us to freely choose and love Him and others as He revealed His love for us. But we are also like the teacher of sin. Your choice, will determine who you spend Eternity with!

Do not think for one moment that God did not fully understand the sacrifice He would have to make to give mankind and the angels Free Will; this ability to disobey and even hate Him and for many people to totally deny His existence. He made this timeline and planned for our Redemption before time began before anything was made. He is Alpha & Omega; He knows and is the beginning and the end!






In Ephesians 1:4-8 Paul tells us: “even before he made the world, God chose us to be his very own through what Christ would do for us; he decided then to make us holy in his eyes, without a single fault, we who stand before him covered with his love. His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into his own family by sending Jesus Christ to die for us. And he did this because he wanted to!
This Redemption makes us holy in Gods eyes; although we continue to sin in the day to day. You see, when we walk through this sin stained world, we cannot help but dirty our feet. But our bodies are clean; thanks to the salvation we have in Jesus Christ through faith alone. I am sure Satan rejoiced in the death of Christ, believing it was a victory for him, but like all his victories, that one too, was short-lived. Christ rose from the dead and is alive today. The final victory will come when Jesus returns and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Gods plan has always been for our Hearts and minds to be guided by Him not Satan. Do not fear the seeming madness around the world; God is in control and is carrying out His plan!

In II Thess. 2:7 -11, Paul talking about the Rapture, The Man of Sin and the blasphemies he will unleash on earth, says “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work”. That only the Holy Spirit who now restrains these events will do so until he is out of the way. (The rupture of the church) then this Satan controlled Man will be revealed, who the Lord Jesus will kill with a word and bring to nothing at His second coming. This Man of Sin will be a real man used as Satan’s tool, full of Satan’s power, and will trick everyone with strange demonstrations, and will do great miracles. He will completely fool those who are on their way to hell because they have said “no” to the Truth; they have refused to believe it and love Him and trust Jesus to save them, so God allows them to believe Lies with all their hearts, enjoying sinfulness they will be judged. Remember Hitler and Stalin? ; This man will be many times worse.

What does the bible say about this “mystery of iniquity” When where and why did it start?

John 1 tells us: In the beginning was The Word we call him Jesus, He was with God in fact He is God. This ONE both existed and enjoyed a mutual relationship with each other from the very beginning. Everything came into being through The Word, and without Him; in fact nothing came into being. He is Life and the Light of mankind and darkness can never overcome the light of Him. The Word of God Jesus Christ was and is The Creator of everything, the very light in Genesis. God is in no way limited by or dependent upon this temporary environment of time and space we have our existence in. He exists outside of time itself as Father, Son and Holy Sprit in ONE, with Jesus being the visible representation there of.

Reading in Genesis we find: Satan was already on Earth in Eden before Adam and Eve were created. God put Satan here for a reason. Ezekiel 28: 13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God”. Some have said “the earth was void and dark because Satan was cast down to earth”. Maybe so, Satan does bring darkness and emptiness but the fact is, Jesus is God and brings light to the world and Satan is a created being, admittedly a very powerful one, but created by God none the less! He operates within the universe of time and space that God created, and is therefore entirely subject to God's sovereign will.

Gleaning information from a comparison of Geneses 2 & 3, Ezekiel 28:12-19 with Isaiah 14, Jude 6, and II Peter 2:4, Job 38 and other passages, the following picture of Lucifer the Day Star now called Satan the adversary begins to emerge. Sometime before Adam and the visible creation, Satan was created by God as one of millions of Angelic beings also with Free Will. The Anointed Cherub; the Captain of the host of Cherubim, Extremely intelligent, Powerful and Majestic, he was called The Day Star (Lucifer). He became vain about his intelligence and his many positions of authority in Heaven. He began thinking of himself as equal to God; his heart became proud and rebellious against God: The desire of his heart became to rule in God’s place, war resulted and Lucifer was cast out.






When God created the Visible Heavens, the Earth and Man; Lucifer sees an opportunity to rule, not only mankind but all the nations to come from him. By causing Adam to sin and die, therefore forfeiting the Dominion of the Earth that God gave to him. He persuaded Eve to follow His teaching instead of God’s. He accuses God of being a liar and withholding something from them to be desired. That death God told them about, it would not happen to them if they followed him because they too would be gods. Astonishingly he persuaded a third of the angels to follow him, resulting in their expulsion from Heaven. (Luke 10:18; II Peter 2:4; Jude 6; Revelation 12:4) Since that day, Satan devotes himself to opposing the work of God in every possible way and is attempting to destroy Mankind and everything good that God has created. Satan is allowed by God, for His good purpose to continue until His final judgement; which is Eternal Hell, along with all those who have chosen him. (Revelation 20:10)

In John 10:18 Rev.12:7-10 we see Lucifer falling to earth like lightning and eventually from Gods presence where He accuses the saints of all ages; Every time we sin He mocks God to His face. I can not fathom the depths of that love! As hard as this might be to understand: God loves Lucifer, but now as Satan the Adversary, God is against him He hates the sin in him and His angels fight him tooth and nail, for your soul. God does not want anyone to perish.

In Ezekiel 28:12 He says of him “You were the signet of perfection full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, but he has made his choice. In the end Rev. 20; God gives Satan and those who have chosen him, their hearts desire; Total separation from Him Forever. Choose Life!

Ezekiel 28: 2-19 has much to say about Satan, the Holy Spirit uses the Prince of Tyre as a metaphor for Satan who was and is proud and arrogant longing to be God he is the real power behind the Prince. Living in the splendor of heaven having his exalted positions, when tested, he became jealous of God thinking he was equal to him. Not even close!

In Isaiah 14:13-15 again, the Holy Spirit uses a metaphor using the king of Babylon “You said in your heart, “I will ascend into heaven! “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God! “I will sit on the Mount of the Congregation, in the far north! “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds! “I will make myself like the Most High!” Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the depths of the pit. Not the outcome Lucifer was hoping for. Mount of the Congregation in the far north? Refers to the place where God met with his people at entrance of the Tabernacle (Exodus 25:22) The first place of Meeting was in the Garden of Eden, where God talked with Adam and Eve every day. Today’s meeting place is our mind and heart. (https://www.bible.com/bible/206/ISA.14.13-15.WEB)
Jesus says of Satan John 10:18 “I saw Satan falling like lightning from heaven” Jesus most likely had in mind Isaiah14:12, “How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (The future nations to stem from Adam) John 12:31-32 “Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out”. “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” referring to His pending death and resurrection that freed all mankind from the curse of sin and gave eternal life to all those who will believe.

Satan deludes himself that he is an equal to God but in any conflict with our Infinite Lord, Satan and his host of angelic minions can’t be deemed a “contest” in any reasonable sense of that word. God possesses the power to destroy them in an instant without the slightest effort just as He spoke all things, including Satan, into existence. The Big Bang one might say! The fact that God has not done so, says much about His Plan, His Character and His Love for His creation.








As with the testing of Job in Job 1:8 it seems this life and all of history is a boot camp for Eternity, a Devine test:
The question? “Will the created; both Angels and Mankind serve God or their own Free Will?

We know Satan’s choice, No! Joshua says (Josh 24:15) “as for me and my house we will serve the LORD” What is your choice? Are you tired of being god? Let the Holy Spirit replace your heart of stone with a new heart from which a new desire to follow and love Jesus will flow.

Satan is allowed to exist and his rebellion is allowed to run it course for Gods divine purpose. The Creator has demonstrated His Character and Love in the sacrifice of His only Son Jesus and in His determination to let us and the angels choose either to follow Him, or our Own Free Will. (The angels have already chosen) Although God loves all His creatures with a perfect love, He does not force any of them to love Him back. When history finally comes to an end, the only beings, Man or Angel, who will be with Him forever, are those who have chosen Him. The rest have chosen Hell! (Eternal Separation) God is also just. You can choose forgiveness, repent and choose life.

Why didn’t God just kill Lucifer? An imaginary conversation might go like this: After not seeing Lucifer for some time.
Angels: Where is Lucifer? God: He is gone.
Angels: Gone where?
God: Just gone, gone to nowhere
Angels: But we have looked everywhere. We don't understand what “gone to nowhere” means.
God: Lucifer is dead, he no longer exists.
Angels: How did that happen?
God: I killed Him. I can create or destroy by a word.
Angels: Why did you do that?
God: Because he sinned.
Angels: What is Sin?
God: It is when you disobey my laws. Angels: We have always obeyed you and we love your good laws but are you saying that if we don’t obey you will kill us?
God: Yes, but if you continue to love me and keep my laws you have nothing to worry about.

God knowing the future; knew that Adam, Eve nor the Angels could not possibly understand the full scope that Lucifer’s deception would have on them and the future of mankind to come.

Knowledge without Understanding can never lead to Wisdom!

Instead of killing Lucifer, God allowed him to continue existence, now as Satan, the adversary. Had he immediately blotted out Lucifer, both the Angels and Mankind would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Sin was permitted to come to maturity so that it might be seen for the weak and lowly thing it is and eventually self-destruct. This great outworking of Free Will is essentially a demonstration to the whole universe both to Angel and Mankind of God’s Love and what Sin is; having been demonstrated by the outworking of both. In John 3:16 we read, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." God showed his self-sacrificing nature and, how far He is willing to go to save man and all creation from the results of sin; Eternal Separation from Him, which is true death.






You might ask; “Why would God be so willing to do so much to save us and yet seemingly be willing to send so many to hell”? God is Just! Sin is abhorrent to Him because it is opposed to all He stands for and as we have seen in this study and as in life; because it corrupts and brings death to everything it touches. God sent his son Jesus to die for us; He gave us Preachers, Teachers and the written word. People simply will not believe God. Their consciences have become seared after repeatedly rejecting God and can no longer hear or care about His call. He will not allow them to continue to corrupt His beloved creation forever but honors the Free Will of His created beings: Having done all, He grants them the desire of their hardened heart, to be Without Him Forever. Free Will requires people to choose for themselves! Gods Time of Grace is coming to an end. Think about all you have read above, if you have not made your choice: I am praying with God for you, to choose life the free gift from God.

Genesis starts out with naïve teenagers Adam and Eve happily being instructed by God, blissfully in love. Satan intervenes leading Eve to thoughts and actions neither she nor Adam could understand. Much less about the consequences of such a choice and the lasting effects it would have on all our lives. But they would live long enough to find out. The Adversary, a Crafty, Intelligent and Deceitful Satan who understood much, having been in the very Heaven of God, purposely led them into sin and death for his own selfish reasons, which put mankind on a path of education with much destruction, trials and tribulations mixed with many joys. I’ve come to believe that in Eternity we will have a Full Understanding of Mankind’s Earthly History and the extent of Gods Love and the lengths He went to save us; we will still have Free Will but have no desire to sin, having been changed forever. Having come full circle, this time with our eyes wide open having seen the destructive out working of sin! We rejoice that we are sons and daughters of God basking in the light of His love forever.

It appears that rebellion against God originated in the mind of Satan, he promoted it to the angels next planted it in the mind of Eve, then to Adam thru his wife, from there to Cain and to all those who have chosen and are choosing to believe him.
Yes! This sin filled Satan ruled world is falling apart; things are going from one degree of decay to another. Gods Plan to reconcile all things both in Heaven and Earth under Christ is going from one degree of completion to another and appears to be coming to a conclusion.

I agree with Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:12 “For now (in this life) we see only a reflection as in a (unclear) mirror; then (when we are in heaven) we shall see face to face. Now, what I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known”. Amen!

It’s not too late, would you pray with me?

“Jesus, I am sorry for my sins please forgive me, I believe You died for my sins, come into my life and help me to trust and follow you” Amen!









2018 Scripture references are from The Living Bible with additional paraphrasing used for clarification.

-SEEKING-
Oct 6th 2018, 09:13 PM
Roger is no longer a member here. This thread is over 9 years old. Not sure if you noticed.