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Scubadude
Sep 3rd 2009, 02:16 AM
I've always wondered where this idea came from. Maybe there's a passage I'm not remembering.

Seems to me that nothing is free, even Jesus. Especially Jesus! He want's everything you are. How is that free? It seems to be a big disservice to tell non-believers about the free gift of salvation.

-SEEKING-
Sep 3rd 2009, 02:18 AM
It's free because we couldn't pay for it. He paid it for us.

Scubadude
Sep 3rd 2009, 02:26 AM
It's free because we couldn't pay for it. He paid it for us.

Just because someone else paid our debts didn't make salvation free. Nor does it imply that it costs us nothing.

-SEEKING-
Sep 3rd 2009, 02:28 AM
Just because someone else paid our debts didn't make salvation free. Nor does it imply that it costs us nothing.

Well it's not free, it cost Jesus His life. But yes it absolutely does imply that is cost us nothing. Did you pay for your salvation? Or was it given to you?

TrustingFollower
Sep 3rd 2009, 02:30 AM
Salvation though faith is a free gift from God. We as believers did not pay the price it cost for us to obtain this salvation, Jesus paid the cost owed to God for our benefit. Had Jesus not bore the cup of inequity for us we would all fail at the task the same way we all have failed at the task of living sinless lives. Salvation is a free gift because we deserve eternal damnation, not eternal life. We failed, but Jesus succeeded and we get the reward.:pp Sounds like a free gift to me.

Scubadude
Sep 3rd 2009, 02:52 AM
Well it's not free, it cost Jesus His life. But yes it absolutely does imply that is cost us nothing. Did you pay for your salvation? Or was it given to you?

Both. It was given to me because I couldn't die for myself. And it cost me everything because it did. I gave him everything. The last time that happened I declared bankruptcy. Not spiritual, though that analogy would work here.

Did you make your commitment to Jesus without thought of the cost?

-SEEKING-
Sep 3rd 2009, 02:55 AM
Both. It was given to me because I couldn't die for myself. And it cost me everything because it did. I gave him everything. The last time that happened I declared bankruptcy. Not spiritual, though that analogy would work here.

Did you make your commitment to Jesus without thought of the cost?

Yep..............

Scubadude
Sep 3rd 2009, 02:59 AM
Salvation though faith is a free gift from God. We as believers did not pay the price it cost for us to obtain this salvation, Jesus paid the cost owed to God for our benefit. Had Jesus not bore the cup of inequity for us we would all fail at the task the same way we all have failed at the task of living sinless lives. Salvation is a free gift because we deserve eternal damnation, not eternal life. We failed, but Jesus succeeded and we get the reward.


It sounds like you are equivocating on the use of the word free. I don't disagree with anything you've written. Very nice.

No why so many Loto winners can't handle the money, because the incredible wealth and power didn't cost them anything (except a buck). No real personal cost.

Why are we told to count the cost?

Scubadude
Sep 3rd 2009, 03:00 AM
Yep..............


And...........?

-SEEKING-
Sep 3rd 2009, 03:07 AM
And...........?

So far so good........

TrustingFollower
Sep 3rd 2009, 03:11 AM
It sounds like you are equivocating on the use of the word free. I don't disagree with anything you've written. Very nice.

No why so many Loto winners can't handle the money, because the incredible wealth and power didn't cost them anything (except a buck). No real personal cost.

Why are we told to count the cost?
Once we except the gift it does not relinquish us of any responsibility for what we obtained. Just like the loto winners you mentioned, they have a responsibility to manage the money. If they fail to manage the money it will be gone without them knowing where it went. We to have a responsibility to manage the gift or winnings we receive. It will cost us time, friends, jobs, posessions the same as it costs the loto winner that got a winfall. With great reward comes great responsilibity.

Sold Out
Sep 3rd 2009, 03:32 PM
Just because someone else paid our debts didn't make salvation free. Nor does it imply that it costs us nothing.

That's right. It's free for us, but it cost Christ so much. Christ stepped out of eternity and into time, took on human flesh (He had been spirit for all eternity past), and now will pay ETERNALLY for our sins. Some think all of sin was paid for in 6 hours....not so. He gave up certain aspects of his eternality to pay for our sins. He will be confined to a resurrected body for all eternity future (I John 3:2). He will subject Himself to the Father when all things have been accomplished (I Cor 15:24-28). This word 'subject' is a military term, which means 'to rank under'. Christ will voluntarily 'rank himself under' the Father. Don't you now appreciate more the price that was paid for you?

John146
Sep 3rd 2009, 04:59 PM
Both. It was given to me because I couldn't die for myself. And it cost me everything because it did. I gave him everything. The last time that happened I declared bankruptcy. Not spiritual, though that analogy would work here.

Did you make your commitment to Jesus without thought of the cost?The offer of the gift of salvation is free. Jesus paid the price in full so we can't pay for it. But accepting the gift comes at a cost: our lives. I think that's what you're saying as well. We have to deny ourselves and give our lives to Him in order to receive the gift He freely offers.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Matt 10
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

tango
Sep 3rd 2009, 05:10 PM
I've always wondered where this idea came from. Maybe there's a passage I'm not remembering.

Seems to me that nothing is free, even Jesus. Especially Jesus! He want's everything you are. How is that free? It seems to be a big disservice to tell non-believers about the free gift of salvation.

It seems to me that salvation is both free and infinitely expensive, kind of like zero divided by zero yields all sorts of mathematical quirks.

It's free in the sense we don't have to do anything to earn it, it's given to us as a gift by grace. The thief on the cross beside Jesus did nothing more than ask for it, and received it.

At the same time you're right that following Jesus can cost us everything, but even then we might regard it as a trade rather than a simple surrender. It's a surrender in human terms but in eternal terms it's trading something that passes for something that never passes.

Mat 13:44-46 NKJV "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. (45) "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, (46) who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

If we liken salvation to that pearl of great price then to give up everything we own in order to acquire it isn't a big sacrifice to make.


We might also argue that it's possible to accept Jesus as our Saviour but then not walk the walk if it starts to get difficult. Without wishing to go into the subject of OSAS/NOSAS, Paul suggests in 1 Corinthians that our works will be tested and that if our work is burned we will lose, but still be saved.

1Co 3:11-15 NKJV For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, (13) each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. (14) If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. (15) If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We could interpret this as saying that we might "just make it" into heaven as if fleeing a fire with nothing but the clothes on our backs, if our works aren't "up to standard".

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 3rd 2009, 05:54 PM
Both. It was given to me because I couldn't die for myself. And it cost me everything because it did. I gave him everything. The last time that happened I declared bankruptcy. Not spiritual, though that analogy would work here.

Did you make your commitment to Jesus without thought of the cost?


Jesus the Christ accomplished what we could never do.. and that was to walk perfectly in the flesh.. and fulfill everything that we couldn't fulfill because the 'flesh' is weak.. and thats why God the Father nailed His body to that Tree.. out of Love.. for His Own... so that they thru Faith in what He completed can have eternal life.. Those who are His Own.. did not work for their salvation, didn't pay for it.. It was and is Freely Granted to them.. It Cost Jesus Christ everything.. but to those who are Granted Salvation.. it's Free..

this is why those who are His.. dont love God because we loved Him first and made Him turn His Head and say 'hey'..look how good that person is.. I'll save him.....

.. but we Love God because He FIRST loved Us.. and sent His Son to be the Propitiation for our sins... and what He did cost HIm .. but for Us its free.. and thats why its By Grace that ye are saved.. not works...

when He Saved Me in 1994, Set me Free.. Revealed His Unmerited Goodness to me .. at the Revelation of that.. He took this hard hearted sinner and thru His Revelation of His Goodness.. had me broke down and crying and asking for Him to take control of my whole Life.. If you call that a committment then thats what it is.. I had no other choice at the Revelation of His Love towards me.. and this unmerited.. than to ask HIm to take control of my life.. and forgive me....

I realize that It Cost HIm everything.. and I Marvel at His Love for me.. why He chose Me and Saved Me.. and has Granted me Eternal Life.. I don't know why He chose me.. it was In His Plan and Foreknowledge... I was a lost sinner, I was a person who was despised by others, rejected by others, drank excessivly, cussed , swore, blasphemed.. why would Somebody like God love me.. what did I do to deserve His Mercy and Love??? NOTHING... It was in His Plan and Foreknowledge.... thats what His Word tells me.. and His Spirit bears witness to it...

Who am I to say 'no' to God.. does not the Master Potter have control over the 'clay vessel'?

all I 'know' today is 'What' I have today.. and this inlcudes Eternal Life.. is Freely Given to me.. it by His Grace and Favor... not my merits or works no matter how religious or pious they appear....... and it all flows thru what He Acccomplished at the Tree.. when they nailed His Body to it....... when He said.. It is Finished...

the carnal man cannot understand this.. for these things are foolishness to him/her..

but he/she that is spiritual will understand and perceive.. because those things are revealed to His Children.. this thru the Spirit .. His Spirit bearing witness with our spirit.. that we may 'know' the things that are 'freely' given to us.. this is right from the Scripture..

and this starts with Eternal Life.. freely granted...

not worked for or earned by those who promote a works salvation..

Does God owe us anything? NO, not one bit.. men women and chidlren are dead in trespasses and sins and lost.. children of wrath and destined to Eternal Separation.. the LAKE OF FIRE..... until God steps in and Saves them.. thru His Grace and Favour.. not works.. thru Faith....it is the Gift of God..

lest any man should boast..

because a person commits their lives to Christ and gives Him everything... is this what Causes God to save Us? Does God owe us anything because we commit our lives to HIm?

a person commits their lives to God because He has revealed His Unmerited Goodness to them... leading them to repentance causing them to commit everything to Him.. because of Who He is and What He does and Has Done at the Bloody tree.. this Freely Granted..

When He saved Me in 1994... He Granted Me eternal Life Freely... it cost HIm His Physcial life on that tree.. But His Gift granted to me is Free....... at the Revelation of His Goodness I broke down and Gave My life to Him.. now because I did that.. does this mean God 'owes' me ?? no.. I was there because of Him... and I exist because of Him.. I gave everything to Him.. because of Who He is. and What He has done.. for me.. and the fact that He has Freely Granted me Eternal Life..

Does He 'owe' me anything today because of the fact that I responded to His Call and the Revealtion of His Love and Goodness in my life.. NO..

He Freely Gives today.. because of His Grace and Mercy..

Because He First Loved Me.. and its according to His Will and Foreknowledge..

Today I Rest in His Love and Grace and Mercy.. 'knowing' that I"m justified and declared Righteous because I believe in my heart (faith).. that He is the One, Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh, is the Saviour Sent into the World by the Father.. to bear witness to the Truth.. and to Save His People from their sins by being the Propitiation for them.. He is who He says He is...

He Truly is the Propitiation for the Sins of His People.. and the sins of this world..

this is why He is Revealed from Heaven.. in the Revelation of Jesus the Christ...


The Just shall live by Faith..

He is Returning.. to this Earth in Power and Glory.. and when the Son of Man returns.. will He find 'faith' on this earth?

he that hath ears let him hear..

John146
Sep 3rd 2009, 06:48 PM
because a person commits their lives to Christ and gives Him everything... is this what Causes God to save Us?That's what Jesus said.

Matt 10
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


Does God owe us anything because we commit our lives to HIm?It has nothing to do with God owing us anything. It has to do with God making man responsible.


a person commits their lives to God because He has revealed His Unmerited Goodness to them... leading them to repentance causing them to commit everything to Him.. because of Who He is and What He does and Has Done at the Bloody tree.. this Freely Granted..God doesn't force anyone to give their lives to Him. He reaches out to people through the preaching of His word and convicting power of His Spirit, but no one is forced. We must respond willingly.

Scubadude
Sep 3rd 2009, 07:12 PM
So far so good........

:lol: Glad to hear it.

kay-gee
Sep 4th 2009, 01:17 AM
There was an old saying...I don't know where I first heard it, but it went something like this...."Salvation is free, but discipleship costs you everything!"

all the best...

Moxie
Sep 4th 2009, 02:16 AM
Did you make your commitment to Jesus without thought of the cost?
Yes


There was an old saying...I don't know where I first heard it, but it went something like this...."Salvation is free, but discipleship costs you everything!"

all the best...
I agree


That's what Jesus said.
Matt 10
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


The moment I knew I needed the person of Jesus Christ as my Savior, all I saw was a cross, His cost, my gift of salvation and the choice I had to make to either take His free gift or reject Him. This process of accepting Jesus is justification--I'm now acquitted of my sins and made righteous.

The process of taking up my cross and following Him is the process of sanctification. This process does have a cost for the believer. It requires us to not conform to the pattern of this world (Romans 12:1-2). It requires us to continue to proceed to walk in faith (Colossians 2:6) and requires that we give up our will to allow the Holy Spirit to work in our lives (Galatians 5:16). These requirements are not works--works will never get us to heaven (Eph 2:8-9); but rather we are continuing in the same faith that brought us to Christ and continuing to be submissive to Him.

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 4th 2009, 02:51 AM
That's what Jesus said.

Matt 10
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

It has nothing to do with God owing us anything. It has to do with God making man responsible.

God doesn't force anyone to give their lives to Him. He reaches out to people through the preaching of His word and convicting power of His Spirit, but no one is forced. We must respond willingly.

NOW.................Where did I say God forced anyone John?

Your taking my words John and reading into them and making a false accusation...

your reading something into what I'm saying..


your stuck in that free will debate.. to the point to where its become bondage...

I'm not here to debate free will.. John.. thats not the OP's question...

but I'm here to Testify to the Saving Power of the Lord Jesus Christ...

and What I wrote about His Testimony He has given me as to the

Delivering Power He has is True.. and His Testimony is True..

John, .....if you have a problem with that.. then I suggest you take it up with Him..

John, I ask you.. Have you taken up your cross???

Did you 'leave all' when He called you.. out of Darkness?

did you forsake your job, your relationship with your wife or spouse? sell everything you had and forsake everything for the Gospel?

I can tell you and I testify today that I did when He called me out of darkness.. I left it all.. 5 figure job, all the benefits.. my fiance ... all the material things.. left behind.. and took up my cross..and continue today... I was the laughing stock of many.. and the subject of many jokes and people laughed and scorned what I was called to do... called mad and crazy.... but He was Glorified in it...

Have you forsaken all for the Gospel?

Jesus said it.. if any man not forsake all that he hath.. he cannot be His Disciple...


have you ? Jesus Himself said it... and His Testimony is True..

tango
Sep 4th 2009, 06:32 PM
Did you make your commitment to Jesus without thought of the cost?

Absolutely not. I thought very long and hard about whether I was willing to follow God's path wherever it took me. I figured there was no point starting along a path unless I was willing to do whatever it took to get to the end of it.

Scubadude
Sep 4th 2009, 08:07 PM
I remember an analogy we use to use in The Navigators when we did "cold turkey evangelism" at the Norfolk Navy base (that's when "turkey" was a cool word).

When the U.S negotiated the surrender of Japan in WWII, their only option was complete surrender. No other options. The events leading up to that point of their surrender were incredible. Had they not taken place, the opportunity would not likely have existed. They had lost everything, and in order to make that loss meaningful and not lead to total annihilation, they submitted. Today they rule in industry and free enterprise. Big difference. The change came with the acknowledgement that they were defeated. All their efforts to fight us have failed. Not only were they no longer fighting the U.S, they needed us.


Saying that their "salvation" was a free gift would be making out their lives and sufferings to be meaningless. The path to God is just as much the work of God as praying the sinners prayer.

Desperaux
Sep 4th 2009, 08:17 PM
I've always wondered where this idea came from. Maybe there's a passage I'm not remembering.

Seems to me that nothing is free, even Jesus. Especially Jesus! He want's everything you are. How is that free? It seems to be a big disservice to tell non-believers about the free gift of salvation.

It'll cost me everything to refuse such a free gift.

However, there is a cost involved:

Luke 14:25-33
25 A large crowd was following Jesus. He turned around and said to them, 26 “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. 27 And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple. 28 “But don’t begin until you count the cost. For who would begin construction of a building without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it? 29 Otherwise, you might complete only the foundation before running out of money, and then everyone would laugh at you. 30 They would say, ‘There’s the person who started that building and couldn’t afford to finish it!’
31 “Or what king would go to war against another king without first sitting down with his counselors to discuss whether his army of 10,000 could defeat the 20,000 soldiers marching against him? 32 And if he can’t, he will send a delegation to discuss terms of peace while the enemy is still far away. 33 So you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything you own.




I think of the rich young ruler who valued his money above the cost it would take to follow Jesus---laying the love of money down. He couldn't pay...

Mark 10:20-22
20 “Teacher,” the man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”
21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

John146
Sep 4th 2009, 09:59 PM
NOW.................Where did I say God forced anyone John? Because you said this:


I had no other choice at the Revelation of His Love towards me.. and this unmerited.. than to ask HIm to take control of my life.. and forgive me....How do you figure that you had no other choice?


Your taking my words John and reading into them and making a false accusation...

your reading something into what I'm saying..


your stuck in that free will debate.. to the point to where its become bondage... That's not true. We're talking about the free gift of salvation and what that means. Some, like yourself, think it means it's a gift that God gives to some and withholds from the rest. Others, like myself, believe it's a gift that is offered and must be accepted through repentance and faith in Christ. Determining the truth regarding that has nothing to do with being in bondage to "that free will debate".

Scubadude
Sep 5th 2009, 12:02 AM
Absolutely not. I thought very long and hard about whether I was willing to follow God's path wherever it took me. I figured there was no point starting along a path unless I was willing to do whatever it took to get to the end of it.


Are you agreeing with me on something? I'm not sure how to take that. :)

Scubadude
Sep 5th 2009, 12:08 AM
We're talking about the free gift of salvation and what that means. Some, like yourself, think it means it's a gift that God gives to some and withholds from the rest. Others, like myself, believe it's a gift that is offered and must be accepted through repentance and faith in Christ. Determining the truth regarding that has nothing to do with being in bondage to "that free will debate".


Guys, please don't go down this road. It's going to end up in a storm of arguing. Please?

Partaker of Christ
Sep 6th 2009, 04:21 PM
Paul said:

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

The loss of all things is counted as dung, compared to what we gain.

We are to lay down or lay aside everything, but I don't think that there is scripture to say that we have to give anything to God (apart from thanks and praise etc) I mean, if Paul counted all things as dung, then would we give God all our dung?

I see it a bit like this:
If God wants to give a pile of gold into our hands, and our hands are filled with a pile of dung, then we would have to lay down the pile of dung, before we can take the pile of gold.

Unfortunately, some think they can carry both.

Isa 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
Isa 55:2 "Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.

Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

tango
Sep 8th 2009, 08:17 PM
Are you agreeing with me on something? I'm not sure how to take that. :)

Sorry it took a while, it was quite momentous to realise we might agree on something... perhaps I should reconsider my position :P