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ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 06:45 PM
Lk 11:14-18 "And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."

Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This seems like a contradiction. Most would say these people in Matthew 7 are false converts because it says "I never knew you", but how would they have cast out devils if a house divided against itself cannot stand. Satan would not use these people to cast out devils, so how do we make sense of this? Did they get saved, cast out devils, and then lose their salvation? Or what?

Thanks,

Z.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 11th 2009, 06:47 PM
Lk 11:14-18 "And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."

Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This seems like a contradiction. Most would say these people in Matthew 7 are false converts because it says "I never knew you", but how would they have cast out devils if a house divided against itself cannot stand. Satan would not use these people to cast out devils, so how do we make sense of this? Did they get saved, cast out devils, and then lose their salvation? Or what?

Thanks,

Z.


I think you answered your own question, Salvation.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 06:58 PM
I think you answered your own question, Salvation.

So youre saying they lost their salvation?

Z.

-SEEKING-
Sep 11th 2009, 07:17 PM
It's tough to say they "lost" something which they may never have had to start off with. Notice Jesus says "I never knew you".

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 07:31 PM
It's tough to say they "lost" something which they may never have had to start off with. Notice Jesus says "I never knew you".

Right. That is my whole point. How could they have cast out devils in the name of Satan, when a house divided against itself cannot stand?

Z.

Denny606
Sep 11th 2009, 07:37 PM
God made an ass speak with a mans voice one time to accomplish his purpose,then how little a thing would it be for him to use false prophets to spread his word even if they didn't want to.We tend to limit what God can do by what we naturally see.God made man that he might get Glory out of him ,now I know that the word might used in a human or natural context is a doubting word.But ,and this is my thought ,might means will,in this case.Because he says every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess him,thereby he is getting Glory out of all mankind ,even if they wait until it is to late to be saved ,they will Believe he is God when they are judged unworthy by Him,do you believe there will be those who cause others to turn to God ,who will not be saved themselves?there are ungodly people who treat people so badly and abuse them to the point that they find themselves no place to turn to but the Lord.So I think false prophet or not God can use them for his purpose,He has all Power,Both in Heaven and Earth

slightlypuzzled
Sep 11th 2009, 07:37 PM
Maybe the point is one of context. In Luke, they accuse Jesus of using the power of the Devil to cast out demons, Jesus simply points out that if the Devil is casting out his own, his (Satan's) house is divided; hence Jesus is using the power of God. In Matthew, the question is not 'which power' but where the speaakers stood in relation to God. They might have been allowed to use the power of God, but that was not a sign that they are saved.....

Denny606
Sep 11th 2009, 07:41 PM
Hey I just noticed that was my 300th post ,how have you put up with me this long?:pp

slightlypuzzled
Sep 11th 2009, 07:44 PM
Hey I just noticed that was my 300th post ,how have you put up with me this long?:pp

From grace we have received, and with grace we will give.....congratulations....;)

BroRog
Sep 11th 2009, 07:47 PM
Lk 11:14-18 "And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."

Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This seems like a contradiction. Most would say these people in Matthew 7 are false converts because it says "I never knew you", but how would they have cast out devils if a house divided against itself cannot stand. Satan would not use these people to cast out devils, so how do we make sense of this? Did they get saved, cast out devils, and then lose their salvation? Or what?

Thanks,

Z.

It's not a contradiction. Jesus is saying that it's possible to cast out demons in his name and yet, not be a believer. This is a warning to those who mistakenly think, 1) I am doing the casting out, and 2) my ability to cast out says something about my eternal status.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 07:50 PM
Maybe the point is one of context. In Luke, they accuse Jesus of using the power of the Devil to cast out demons, Jesus simply points out that if the Devil is casting out his own, his (Satan's) house is divided; hence Jesus is using the power of God. In Matthew, the question is not 'which power' but where the speaakers stood in relation to God. They might have been allowed to use the power of God, but that was not a sign that they are saved.....

So, you're saying it refers to people who thought they were saved, then began to work miracles and cast out demons (in the name of Jesus and power of God), and then go to hell because in reality they were not really saved?

It's still hard to see how someone can indeed be a false convert, yet possess the power of God. The Bible also says, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils..." (Mk 16:17).

Also:

Lk 10:17 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."

I'm not sure. What do you all think?

Z.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 11th 2009, 07:50 PM
So youre saying they lost their salvation?

Z.


How can man cast out a demon, not by his accord but by Christ! and Salvation is the only real way to heaven through Christ, so you have to ask yourself did they have salvation or not there is no in the middle.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 07:53 PM
It's not a contradiction. Jesus is saying that it's possible to cast out demons in his name and yet, not be a believer. This is a warning to those who mistakenly think, 1) I am doing the casting out, and 2) my ability to cast out says something about my eternal status.

I dont believe its a contradiciton either :)

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 07:55 PM
How can man cast out a demon, not by his accord but by Christ! and Salvation is the only real way to heaven through Christ, so you have to ask yourself did they have salvation or not there is no in the middle.

I'm not sure I follow you... so you're saying that the Holy Spirit works through men who are not saved in order to cast out a devil?

Z.

John146
Sep 11th 2009, 07:56 PM
How can man cast out a demon, not by his accord but by Christ! and Salvation is the only real way to heaven through Christ, so you have to ask yourself did they have salvation or not there is no in the middle.They certainly did not since He tells them that He never knew them. But that still leaves the question of whether or not they really did cast out devils and, if so, why and how were unsaved people able to do so?

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 07:57 PM
I can understand the power of Satan, that is, false signs and wonders, etc. But this is different than God's power. Satan cannot cast out a demon, for that would be dividing his kingdom. Make sense?

Z.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 11th 2009, 08:00 PM
I'm not sure I follow you... so you're saying that the Holy Spirit works through men who are not saved in order to cast out a devil?

Z.


We can fall from grace.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 08:01 PM
We can fall from grace.

Gotcha :)

Z.

BroRog
Sep 11th 2009, 08:01 PM
It's still hard to see how someone can indeed be a false convert, yet possess the power of God.


People don't possess the power of God. It is God himself who performs the miracle. This is the mistake the disciples made, thinking that THEY were the ones casting out the demons. Jesus reminded them that it take prayer and perhaps fasting to cast out demons.

Why prayer if the man possess the power? But he doesn't; he must pray to God so that God will cast out the demon.

John146
Sep 11th 2009, 08:01 PM
I can understand the power of Satan, that is, false signs and wonders, etc. But this is different than God's power. Satan cannot cast out a demon, for that would be dividing his kingdom. Make sense?

Z.It does. So, what is the answer to this? Is it possible that they only thought that they cast out devils but didn't in reality? They also claimed to have prophesied in His name and did many wonderful works in His name. Is that really true or did they just think it was but were mistaken? I would lean towards believing that they mistakenly thought that they did all those things in His name and didn't actually do them at all since one can only do those things through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 11th 2009, 08:02 PM
They certainly did not since He tells them that He never knew them. But that still leaves the question of whether or not they really did cast out devils and, if so, why and how were unsaved people able to do so?


God said, "I knew you before the foundation of the world", he knew their hearts and knew they would sin, remember GOD allows all things for his Glory, they (keyword) may have walked with GOD at one time and fell from grace.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 08:03 PM
They certainly did not since He tells them that He never knew them. But that still leaves the question of whether or not they really did cast out devils and, if so, why and how were unsaved people able to do so?

Yes. That is my question. Sorry I did not annunciate it well. It's been a long day ;)

Z.

John146
Sep 11th 2009, 08:05 PM
God said, "I knew you before the foundation of the world", he knew their hearts and knew they would sin, remember GOD allows all things for his Glory, they (keyword) may have walked with GOD at one time and fell from grace.If that was the case why would Jesus tell them that He never knew them? I believe that means He is saying that He never had a personal saving relationship with them and not that He never knew who they were. Obviously, He knows who everyone is.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 08:08 PM
It does. So, what is the answer to this? Is it possible that they only thought that they cast out devils but didn't in reality? They also claimed to have prophesied in His name and did many wonderful works in His name. Is that really true or did they just think it was but were mistaken? I would lean towards believing that they mistakenly thought that they did all those things in His name and didn't actually do them at all since one can only do those things through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes perhaps that is so. However, wouldn't a miracle be obvious if it had indeed occurred or not? And wouldnt a demon be clearly gone or not?

Z.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 08:14 PM
People don't possess the power of God. It is God himself who performs the miracle. This is the mistake the disciples made, thinking that THEY were the ones casting out the demons. Jesus reminded them that it take prayer and perhaps fasting to cast out demons.

Why prayer if the man possess the power? But he doesn't; he must pray to God so that God will cast out the demon.

I disagree.

1 Cor 12:7-11 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Obviously, these people are not working on their own accord or ability. It is only by the Holy Spirit. This is clear. Humans have no power of their own. But I do believe that a GIFT is something the human will possess, in the name of Jesus. A spiritual power is given to the person.

John146
Sep 11th 2009, 08:15 PM
Yes perhaps that is so. However, wouldn't a miracle be obvious if it had indeed occurred or not? And wouldnt a demon be clearly gone or not?

Z.I don't have answers to those questions since I've never witnessed a demon being cast out of a person. I know there's a reasonable solution to the dilemma you raised and the view I shared is the one that makes the most sense to me at this point. I'm just not aware of any scripture that teaches that God prophesies, casts out demons and does "many wonderful works" through unbelievers.

sedux
Sep 11th 2009, 08:16 PM
Maybe the point is one of context. In Luke, they accuse Jesus of using the power of the Devil to cast out demons, Jesus simply points out that if the Devil is casting out his own, his (Satan's) house is divided; hence Jesus is using the power of God. In Matthew, the question is not 'which power' but where the speaakers stood in relation to God. They might have been allowed to use the power of God, but that was not a sign that they are saved.....
Yes! I was thinking the same thing!


It's not a contradiction. Jesus is saying that it's possible to cast out demons in his name and yet, not be a believer. This is a warning to those who mistakenly think, 1) I am doing the casting out, and 2) my ability to cast out says something about my eternal status.
:yes: This too!

I believe that God is not limited by anyone's salvation status, and that the Lord does in fact use unsaved people to do His will, whatever that may be, and that includes casting out demons.

I think to say that someone who can cast out demons must be saved is kinda like saying, someone who can speak in tongues, must be saved as well. Is that necessarily true?


Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
I think this scripture is saying that you can do many "works" for Christ, but if those works are done as an agenda for your own glory or for any other reason other than for the glory of Christ, then this verse would apply.

Anywhoo, just my :2cents:... :D

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 08:16 PM
... I'm just not aware of any scripture that teaches that God prophesies, casts out demons and does "many wonderful works" through unbelievers.

yeah, me neither. :help:

Z.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 08:22 PM
I think to say that someone who can cast out demons must be saved is kinda like saying, someone who can speak in tongues, must be saved as well. Is that necessarily true?

Do you see any evidence of this in Scripture though? If what you say is true, then Simon the Sorcerer would have been able to possess the power that he saw afterall, without being saved. This, of course, is not how it happened.

Z.

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 08:40 PM
continued:

Acts 8:18-23 "And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

This tells us that men who are evil cannot do the works and power of God. Right?

Z.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 11th 2009, 08:45 PM
If that was the case why would Jesus tell them that He never knew them? I believe that means He is saying that He never had a personal saving relationship with them and not that He never knew who they were. Obviously, He knows who everyone is.


Once again God allows thing to happen for his Glory, if he uses a man to cast out demon for his Glory and five years later the man walks away from GOD he knew that was going to happen, I never knew you means, you never knew me! Cause if they did they would have never walked on him to begin with. Take for example The Bible The KJV, according to some King James was gay, if he was a homosexual and lived out his life that way and Jesus tells him "I never knew you" does that mean the KJV in no good??? No, he served his purpose for GOD.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 11th 2009, 08:48 PM
continued:

Acts 8:18-23 "And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

This tells us that men who are evil cannot do the works and power of God. Right?

Z.


Hopefully this will answer your question:

Did Judas Iscariot serve God???

ZAB
Sep 11th 2009, 10:03 PM
Hopefully this will answer your question:

Did Judas Iscariot serve God???

Good point. When you say "serve" what do you mean? Steal? :lol:

Even if he did "serve" in a good sense, does that automatically imply that he cast out demons? Worked miracles? :dunno:
Was he even saved? I don't think so. Jesus called him a devil (Jn 6:70).


Z.

BroRog
Sep 11th 2009, 11:36 PM
I disagree.

1 Cor 12:7-11 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Obviously, these people are not working on their own accord or ability. It is only by the Holy Spirit. This is clear. Humans have no power of their own. But I do believe that a GIFT is something the human will possess, in the name of Jesus. A spiritual power is given to the person.


Didn't you just contradict yourself?

The Mighty Sword
Sep 12th 2009, 02:01 AM
Good point. When you say "serve" what do you mean? Steal? :lol:

Even if he did "serve" in a good sense, does that automatically imply that he cast out demons? Worked miracles? :dunno:
Was he even saved? I don't think so. Jesus called him a devil (Jn 6:70).


Z.


Served meaning he did GODS will whether he liked it or not, it was bigger than him.

He was saved, was, if he asked forgiveness and repented before he died is between him and The Father.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 12th 2009, 02:02 AM
Didn't you just contradict yourself?


Walk him into correction, he needs help, so help him.:)

Butch5
Sep 12th 2009, 03:39 AM
It's not a contradiction. Jesus is saying that it's possible to cast out demons in his name and yet, not be a believer. This is a warning to those who mistakenly think, 1) I am doing the casting out, and 2) my ability to cast out says something about my eternal status.

HOw do you draw that conclusion in light of Mark 16:17?

Mark 16:16-18 ( KJV )
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Butch5
Sep 12th 2009, 03:44 AM
It does. So, what is the answer to this? Is it possible that they only thought that they cast out devils but didn't in reality? They also claimed to have prophesied in His name and did many wonderful works in His name. Is that really true or did they just think it was but were mistaken? I would lean towards believing that they mistakenly thought that they did all those things in His name and didn't actually do them at all since one can only do those things through the power of the Holy Spirit.

John, the passage does not say they think they did it. It says, have we not cast out demons in thy name? I think you are on shaky ground when you start to introduce things into the Scriptures. This is where we can get into all kinds of doctrines that are not Biblical.

Steven3
Sep 12th 2009, 06:09 AM
Hi ZAB
"Casting out demons" was a common activity in the 1st Century: Jews did it, Samaritans did it, then finally Christians did it. To a certain extent Greeks also did it, using different vocabulary, since they didn't have the same concept of "demon" and "demonized" as Jews/Samaritans/Christians.

Doesn't mean it actually *worked*, or even that there were really "demons" there at all. I can't quote my source but years ago I remember hearing about a Catholic church medical report about the value of exorcisms in (a) RC, (b) Pentecostal context and comparing them with (c) psychiatric treatment, and the report concluded that a significant permanent reduction in disturbed behaviour was not much better by exorcism than giving a patient a placebo (a dummy drug with no more chemical content than a sweet). But then different patient groups have different responses --- a hypochondriac will be more affected by a placebo given by a doctor than someone who themselves believes they are demon-possessed....

So in answer to your question, those saying "Lord, lord" were probably conning themselves to their abilities in exorcism as much as they were conning themselves about living lives in Christ.

Same goes for them prophesying apparently. Rather sad. But there as a warning to us all.

ZAB
Sep 12th 2009, 09:58 AM
Didn't you just contradict yourself?

No, not at all...

Z.

ZAB
Sep 12th 2009, 10:00 AM
Hi ZAB
"Casting out demons" was a common activity in the 1st Century: Jews did it, Samaritans did it, then finally Christians did it. To a certain extent Greeks also did it, using different vocabulary, since they didn't have the same concept of "demon" and "demonized" as Jews/Samaritans/Christians.

Doesn't mean it actually *worked*, or even that there were really "demons" there at all. I can't quote my source but years ago I remember hearing about a Catholic church medical report about the value of exorcisms in (a) RC, (b) Pentecostal context and comparing them with (c) psychiatric treatment, and the report concluded that a significant permanent reduction in disturbed behaviour was not much better by exorcism than giving a patient a placebo (a dummy drug with no more chemical content than a sweet). But then different patient groups have different responses --- a hypochondriac will be more affected by a placebo given by a doctor than someone who themselves believes they are demon-possessed....

So in answer to your question, those saying "Lord, lord" were probably conning themselves to their abilities in exorcism as much as they were conning themselves about living lives in Christ.

Same goes for them prophesying apparently. Rather sad. But there as a warning to us all.

Hi and thanks for your input. I can see how that could occur. Wouldn't a miracle, however, be pretty clear if it were genuine or not?

Z.

ZAB
Sep 12th 2009, 10:03 AM
People don't possess the power of God.

You don't possess a gift???? hmm. Again, I disagree.

Z.

BroRog
Sep 12th 2009, 09:38 PM
Walk him into correction, he needs help, so help him.:)

Okay, I didn't want to presume he couldn't find it himself. I guess he can't. :)

BroRog
Sep 12th 2009, 09:45 PM
You don't possess a gift???? hmm. Again, I disagree.

Z.


No, not at all...


Okay, typically people don't usually contradict themselves in two sentences but you seem to have done just that here.


Obviously, these people are not working on their own accord or ability. It is only by the Holy Spirit. This is clear. Humans have no power of their own. But I do believe that a GIFT is something the human will possess, in the name of Jesus. A spiritual power is given to the person.First you say, "these people are not working on their own accord or ability. It is only by the Holy Spirit." Your emphasis of the term "only" clarified your belief that the agent of the miracle has no power of his or her own, but that the actual miracle is being performed by the Holy Spirit.

Then you say, "A spiritual power is given to the person." In this you seem to have reversed your earlier statement, suggesting that the agent of the miracle indeed has power of his or her own to produce the miraculous.

Either the agent has no ability as you say in your first statement. Or the agent has ability as you suggest in your second statement. But it can't be both.

As I understand it, no agent (including Jesus) has the power within him or herself to perform a miracle. Rather, God himself performs the miracle coincident with the agent's word. Jesus said that his ability to perform miracles was due to the fact that he was in command of forces that operated to due the miracles for him. He praises the faith of the Centurion, for instance, who realized that Jesus was able to perform miracles remotely due to his authority over those powers.

9Marksfan
Sep 12th 2009, 11:29 PM
I don't have answers to those questions since I've never witnessed a demon being cast out of a person. I know there's a reasonable solution to the dilemma you raised and the view I shared is the one that makes the most sense to me at this point. I'm just not aware of any scripture that teaches that God prophesies, casts out demons and does "many wonderful works" through unbelievers.

Balaam as an unbeliever, yet God prophesied through him - same with Saul.

And I believe the counterfeit works of Satan are in view here. Satan can (and does) imitate any gift of the Spirit - but not the fruit...

Notice Jesus does not confirm that these folks DID what they claimed - he says they worked iniquity, which to my mind heavily implies that what they thought was genuine spiritual ministry was actually iniquity - not the will of God.

9Marksfan
Sep 12th 2009, 11:32 PM
Good point. When you say "serve" what do you mean? Steal? :lol:

Even if he did "serve" in a good sense, does that automatically imply that he cast out demons? Worked miracles? :dunno:

When Jesus sent them out and they preached and cast out demons, don't you think Judas was as much part of that? Notice how NO ONE suspected him as being the traitor at the last supper - he did all the same things as the other disciples and appeared to be just as genuine as the rest of them - a chilling warning...


Was he even saved? I don't think so. Jesus called him a devil (Jn 6:70).

Correct. And the others STILL didn't suspect him at that time.

ZAB
Sep 14th 2009, 01:33 PM
Okay, typically people don't usually contradict themselves in two sentences but you seem to have done just that here.

First you say, "these people are not working on their own accord or ability. It is only by the Holy Spirit." Your emphasis of the term "only" clarified your belief that the agent of the miracle has no power of his or her own, but that the actual miracle is being performed by the Holy Spirit.

Then you say, "A spiritual power is given to the person." In this you seem to have reversed your earlier statement, suggesting that the agent of the miracle indeed has power of his or her own to produce the miraculous.

Either the agent has no ability as you say in your first statement. Or the agent has ability as you suggest in your second statement. But it can't be both.

As I understand it, no agent (including Jesus) has the power within him or herself to perform a miracle. Rather, God himself performs the miracle coincident with the agent's word. Jesus said that his ability to perform miracles was due to the fact that he was in command of forces that operated to due the miracles for him. He praises the faith of the Centurion, for instance, who realized that Jesus was able to perform miracles remotely due to his authority over those powers.

You emphasized the "only", not me. Please do not "assume" that I have said somthing because it "seems" like I said this or that. A gift is a gift. Obviously it is the Holy Spirit who enables the miraculous, that goes without saying. However, He clearly uses human vessels to do His deeds. In that sense, they are a part of the miracle. Concerning Jesus, it was ALSO said of Him that He had the Spirit without measure.

Z.

ZAB
Sep 14th 2009, 01:35 PM
When Jesus sent them out and they preached and cast out demons, don't you think Judas was as much part of that? Notice how NO ONE suspected him as being the traitor at the last supper - he did all the same things as the other disciples and appeared to be just as genuine as the rest of them - a chilling warning...

Yes, good point. The others apparently had no idea he was "a devil". Crazy!

Z.

sedux
Sep 14th 2009, 02:04 PM
When Jesus sent them out and they preached and cast out demons, don't you think Judas was as much part of that? Notice how NO ONE suspected him as being the traitor at the last supper - he did all the same things as the other disciples and appeared to be just as genuine as the rest of them - a chilling warning.
:yes: Very very good point!

This reminds me of that one verse about separating the wheat from the chaff...

Zab - Oh yeah, regarding the question way back, no - I didn't see it anywhere in scripture lol! JMO ;)

BroRog
Sep 14th 2009, 03:20 PM
You emphasized the "only", not me. Please do not "assume" that I have said somthing because it "seems" like I said this or that. A gift is a gift. Obviously it is the Holy Spirit who enables the miraculous, that goes without saying. However, He clearly uses human vessels to do His deeds. In that sense, they are a part of the miracle. Concerning Jesus, it was ALSO said of Him that He had the Spirit without measure.

Z.

Hey Zab,

No assumption was made by me. I quoted your words verbatim. And where does it say he uses human vessels?

ZAB
Sep 14th 2009, 03:39 PM
Hey Zab,

No assumption was made by me. I quoted your words verbatim.

You emphasized certain words, thus making them your own. The remainder of my post was the balance.


And where does it say he uses human vessels?

Eph 4:8; 1 Cor 14:1; 12:31; Acts 8:17-18; Rom 1:11; Mk 16:17; Jn 14:12; Lk 10:17; Acts 5:16; 8:7; 16:18; 19:12-16; 1 Cor 1:26-29; etc; etc; etc.

How else do you suppose the body is to operate? It is through that which every joint supplieth, via the Holy Ghost (Eph 4:16).

Z.

BroRog
Sep 14th 2009, 03:54 PM
You emphasized certain words, thus making them your own. The remainder of my post was the balance.

I highlighted one word; and by making it bold, I see no reason why doing that should change the meaning.




Eph 4:8; 1 Cor 14:1; 12:31; Acts 8:17-18; Rom 1:11; Mk 16:17; Jn 14:12; Lk 10:17; Acts 5:16; 8:7; 16:18; 19:12-16; 1 Cor 1:26-29; etc; etc; etc.

How else do you suppose the body is to operate? It is through that which every joint supplieth, via the Holy Ghost (Eph 4:16).

Z.

Again, where do the scriptures talk about anyone being a vessel of the Holy Spirit? The scriptures you cited say nothing about this.

ZAB
Sep 14th 2009, 04:49 PM
I highlighted one word; and by making it bold, I see no reason why doing that should change the meaning.

You should have recognized the remainder of the post as a balance to the first. Taking little snipits here and there can make a post say anything.


Again, where do the scriptures talk about anyone being a vessel of the Holy Spirit? The scriptures you cited say nothing about this.

These Scriptures illustrate: (1) that Scripture affirms the individual giftings of believers, and (2) the disciples as being used by the Holy Ghost in various means and methods of ministry including healing, prophecy, the laying on on hands, impartation, etc. They were the human vessels that were equipped by the Holy Spirit. FYI, also check out Acts 9:14-15; 1 Thess 4:4. The word "vessel" in the Greek means, "a chosen instrument; a wife as contributing to the usefulness of the husband". This is what we are to the Lord Jesus.

Can we get back to the OP, please. If you want to discuss this aspect, we can start another thread.

thanks,

Z.

Rookie78
Sep 14th 2009, 05:03 PM
I've thought about this question myself. Jesus confirms that the one to whom spirits are subject is saved.

Luke 10:20

20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

The only thing I can come up with is that at one time they were saved, but did not endure to the end.

9Marksfan
Sep 14th 2009, 09:29 PM
Yes, good point. The others apparently had no idea he was "a devil". Crazy!

Z.

That's how convincing his "front" was...

otrclassic
Sep 14th 2009, 09:33 PM
Lk 11:14-18 "And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."

Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This seems like a contradiction. Most would say these people in Matthew 7 are false converts because it says "I never knew you", but how would they have cast out devils if a house divided against itself cannot stand. Satan would not use these people to cast out devils, so how do we make sense of this? Did they get saved, cast out devils, and then lose their salvation? Or what?

Thanks,

Z.

If we look closely it never says they were successful or that there were demons they really cast out. The passage just says what the ones say to Christ, it doesn't mean they did.

BroRog
Sep 14th 2009, 09:53 PM
You should have recognized the remainder of the post as a balance to the first. Taking little snipits here and there can make a post say anything.

What do you mean? I quoted your post in its entirety.


These Scriptures illustrate: (1) that Scripture affirms the individual giftings of believers, and (2) the disciples as being used by the Holy Ghost in various means and methods of ministry including healing, prophecy, the laying on on hands, impartation, etc. They were the human vessels that were equipped by the Holy Spirit.

None of the passages you cited say that the individuals with spiritual gifts are vessels, which is a pagan concept.


FYI, also check out Acts 9:14-15; 1 Thess 4:4. The word "vessel" in the Greek means, "a chosen instrument; a wife as contributing to the usefulness of the husband". This is what we are to the Lord Jesus.


The Greek term skeuos:thing is a generic term that can indicate just about anything depending on the context, just as our English word "thing" does. For Acts 9:15 my translation has, "But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel . . ." The generic term skeuos:thing can refer to any household instrument, tool, kitchen item, pot, bowl, etc.

In this context, Jesus indicates that Paul will be the means whereby Jesus will accomplish his will among the Gentiles.


Can we get back to the OP, please. If you want to discuss this aspect, we can start another thread.

thanks,

Z.

The subject of your OP concerns the apparent contradiction between a couple of passages. But one of your posts itself contained a contradiction, causing me to wonder if you understood what a contradiction is. I guess I will bow out if you don't care.

ZAB
Sep 15th 2009, 12:12 PM
If we look closely it never says they were successful or that there were demons they really cast out. The passage just says what the ones say to Christ, it doesn't mean they did.

But isn't that implied? Wouldn't people know if there had been a miracle or not? I don't think that's very easy to confuse, right? Also, in Scripture, when a demon was cast out of someone, there was a clear and obvious change in their behavior (note the Gadarene man). Wouldn't this make it obvious if the event had actually occurred or not?

I wonder why Jesus never affirms or denies their claims? He just says, "I never knew you...".


Z.

ZAB
Sep 15th 2009, 12:24 PM
None of the passages you cited say that the individuals with spiritual gifts are vessels, which is a pagan concept.

I really don't get your thinking... if human beings are not vessels (instruments) of the Holy Spirit, then that means any gifting or power originates in us. That idea is false, friend.



The Greek term skeuos:thing is a generic term that can indicate just about anything depending on the context, just as our English word "thing" does. For Acts 9:15 my translation has, "But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel . . ." The generic term skeuos:thing can refer to any household instrument, tool, kitchen item, pot, bowl, etc.

In this context, Jesus indicates that Paul will be the means whereby Jesus will accomplish his will among the Gentiles.

Correct. Paul is the vessel (instrument) that the Lord will move through. That is what I said :bounce:.

Matt 5:13-14 "Ye are the salt of the earth... Ye are the light of the world..."

Phil 2:13-15 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world..."


Z.

BroRog
Sep 15th 2009, 04:04 PM
I really don't get your thinking... if human beings are not vessels (instruments) of the Holy Spirit, then that means any gifting or power originates in us. That idea is false, friend.

Correct. Paul is the vessel (instrument) that the Lord will move through. That is what I said :bounce:.

Matt 5:13-14 "Ye are the salt of the earth... Ye are the light of the world..."

Phil 2:13-15 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world..."


Z.

To me, the term "vessel" speaks of a repository, a place in which to put something. And when you say that Paul and the others are "vessels" of the Holy Spirit, are you suggesting that Paul and the others are allowing the Holy Spirit to use their body while they passively remain inactive?

In my view, Paul was an "instrument" of Christ in that Paul worked for Christ, promoting his teaching to the Gentiles. Paul wasn't a "vessel" of Christ as if Christ needed to borrow Paul's body in order to project his will on earth.

ZAB
Sep 15th 2009, 04:41 PM
To me, the term "vessel" speaks of a repository, a place in which to put something. And when you say that Paul and the others are "vessels" of the Holy Spirit, are you suggesting that Paul and the others are allowing the Holy Spirit to use their body while they passively remain inactive?

In my view, Paul was an "instrument" of Christ in that Paul worked for Christ, promoting his teaching to the Gentiles. Paul wasn't a "vessel" of Christ as if Christ needed to borrow Paul's body in order to project his will on earth.

Seriously? You're making a mountain out of a molehill... why not just ask this question 10 posts ago? No, I do not believe Jesus is borrowing Paul's body! I believe Paul is allowing the Holy Ghost to use him. The term "vessel" in no way alludes to inactivity. I don't know where you get that from :dunno:.

Z.

otrclassic
Sep 15th 2009, 04:46 PM
But isn't that implied? Wouldn't people know if there had been a miracle or not? I don't think that's very easy to confuse, right? Also, in Scripture, when a demon was cast out of someone, there was a clear and obvious change in their behavior (note the Gadarene man). Wouldn't this make it obvious if the event had actually occurred or not?

I wonder why Jesus never affirms or denies their claims? He just says, "I never knew you...".


Z.

Not necessarily, these people standing before Christ are desperate so they will say whatever they think He wants to here. There can be appearance of things that never really happen, look at all the charlatans we have coming in His name on TV they claim everything from new revelation and demonic possession to healing all in His name but most are not very verifiable.

This just seems like desperation on their part, not a real act.

ZAB
Sep 15th 2009, 05:05 PM
Not necessarily, these people standing before Christ are desperate so they will say whatever they think He wants to here. There can be appearance of things that never really happen, look at all the charlatans we have coming in His name on TV they claim everything from new revelation and demonic possession to healing all in His name but most are not very verifiable.

This just seems like desperation on their part, not a real act.

Yes, I suppose they could have just been mere claims, although it would be difficult to prove. Their desperation could have been at work here.

I am hesistant to believe that these people were unbelievers though. Believers are strictly set apart from unbelievers. Believers work miracles after the power of God, while unbelievers work miracles (lying signs and wonders) after the power of Satan. They are polar opposites.

Z.

BroRog
Sep 15th 2009, 07:29 PM
Seriously? You're making a mountain out of a molehill... why not just ask this question 10 posts ago? No, I do not believe Jesus is borrowing Paul's body! I believe Paul is allowing the Holy Ghost to use him. The term "vessel" in no way alludes to inactivity. I don't know where you get that from :dunno:.

Z.

What do you mean that Paul is allowing the Holy Ghost to use him? In what way does the Holy Ghost use Paul?

penofareadywriter
Sep 15th 2009, 07:47 PM
Lk 11:14-18 "And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."

Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This seems like a contradiction. Most would say these people in Matthew 7 are false converts because it says "I never knew you", but how would they have cast out devils if a house divided against itself cannot stand. Satan would not use these people to cast out devils, so how do we make sense of this? Did they get saved, cast out devils, and then lose their salvation? Or what?

Thanks,

Z.


Because there is no such thing as a false convert. Someone can become saved but never cultivate intimacy with God....or they do not let their "roots" grow deep enough....and when the "sun comes up"(persicution/tribulation)....they have not root in them selfs and they fall away.
Mark 4:16 "These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble."

penofareadywriter
Sep 15th 2009, 07:56 PM
How can man cast out a demon, not by his accord but by Christ! and Salvation is the only real way to heaven through Christ, so you have to ask yourself did they have salvation or not there is no in the middle.


Exactly, let us learn from this one...John 9:30-31 "The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him"

Satan cannot cast out satan, therefore, these must have had a true conversion and then fell away later... having never grew intimate with Jesus.

ZAB
Sep 15th 2009, 08:07 PM
Exactly, let us learn from this one...John 9:30-31 "The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him"

Satan cannot cast out satan, therefore, these must have had a true conversion and then fell away later... having never grew intimate with Jesus.

Great Scripture reference. Thanks.

So, these people lost their salvation?

Z.

penofareadywriter
Sep 16th 2009, 02:11 AM
Great Scripture reference. Thanks.

So, these people lost their salvation?

Z.

That would be the only logical concussion in my opinion.

penofareadywriter
Sep 16th 2009, 02:21 AM
Great Scripture reference. Thanks.

So, these people lost their salvation?

Z.


I believe they are the rocky ground hearers in Mark 4. They hey had genuine "life" (seed grew into a plant) in God...but did not grow deep roots....aka...did not grow intimate with God. That is not necessarily a sin but when tribulation comes and we must stand strong in the faith...the rocky ground hearers deny the Lord. In turn, He denyes them as He says He will if we deny Him before man.

ZAB
Sep 16th 2009, 02:28 AM
That would be the only logical concussion in my opinion.

So how do you interpret it when he says, "I never knew you"?


Z.

penofareadywriter
Sep 16th 2009, 02:46 AM
So how do you interpret it when he says, "I never knew you"?


Z.


It can not mean God never had information about these ones. Rater, we have here the classic Semitic form of know.... Adam knew eve. It is intimacy that He is referring to. A deep relationship. Walking with God and being lead by the Spirit of God. These ones never "went up the mountain" but rather just wanted the pastor to go up the mountain for them. They were willing to let others have close fellowship with God, but they them selfs were not willing.

otrclassic
Sep 16th 2009, 02:56 AM
Yes, I suppose they could have just been mere claims, although it would be difficult to prove. Their desperation could have been at work here.

I am hesistant to believe that these people were unbelievers though. Believers are strictly set apart from unbelievers. Believers work miracles after the power of God, while unbelievers work miracles (lying signs and wonders) after the power of Satan. They are polar opposites.

Z.
I never saw anything to suggest they were believers that was why I went that way, I could be wrong. Anther was any lack of proof that anything happened. good discussion

penofareadywriter
Sep 16th 2009, 03:01 AM
I never saw anything to suggest they were believers that was why I went that way, I could be wrong. Anther was any lack of proof that anything happened. good discussion


Very good! I love talking about this stuff!:D

ZAB
Sep 16th 2009, 02:09 PM
It can not mean God never had information about these ones. Rater, we have here the classic Semitic form of know.... Adam knew eve. It is intimacy that He is referring to. A deep relationship. Walking with God and being lead by the Spirit of God. These ones never "went up the mountain" but rather just wanted the pastor to go up the mountain for them. They were willing to let others have close fellowship with God, but they them selfs were not willing.

So, is intimacy with God a requirement for salvation?

Z.

penofareadywriter
Sep 16th 2009, 03:28 PM
So, is intimacy with God a requirement for salvation?

Z.


No. But, intimacy, like deep roots, ARE a requirement to sustain you through hardships, testings and persecution/tribulation.
Does that make sense?

penofareadywriter
Sep 16th 2009, 03:32 PM
We are to learn from Israel and her testing in the wilderness. They ALL were "delivered out of Egypt" (a picture of the believer being delivered out of the world) and they ALL were baptized into Moses. But they DID NOT ALL make it to the promise land.
This is the lesson we are to learn. This is one of the main topics of the book of Hebrews.

ZAB
Sep 16th 2009, 04:20 PM
No. But, intimacy, like deep roots, ARE a requirement to sustain you through hardships, testings and persecution/tribulation.
Does that make sense?

So, you're saying intimacy with God is a requirement to "stay saved"?

Z.

ZAB
Sep 16th 2009, 04:23 PM
We are to learn from Israel and her testing in the wilderness. They ALL were "delivered out of Egypt" (a picture of the believer being delivered out of the world) and they ALL were baptized into Moses. But they DID NOT ALL make it to the promise land.
This is the lesson we are to learn. This is one of the main topics of the book of Hebrews.

Yet they were justified by the blood on the doorposts, so weren't they saved? Is the promised land heaven? In Hebrews, it speaks of Esau. Of Esau, it says he lost his "inheritance" or "birth right". I don't necessarily think this to be heaven. You?

Z.

penofareadywriter
Sep 16th 2009, 04:37 PM
Yet they were justified by the blood on the doorposts, so weren't they saved? Is the promised land heaven? In Hebrews, it speaks of Esau. Of Esau, it says he lost his "inheritance" or "birth right". I don't necessarily think this to be heaven. You?

Z.

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:


“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,

‘ They shall not enter My rest.’”


12 Beware, brethren(thats us), lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ[B] if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Pretty much speaks for its self.

What would be the lesson we are to gain from this from your point of view?

ZAB
Sep 16th 2009, 04:52 PM
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:


“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,

‘ They shall not enter My rest.’”


12 Beware, brethren(thats us), lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ[B] if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Pretty much speaks for its self.


Is this referring to heaven (salvation)? Or to rest (peace)? Are they synonymous?


Z.

penofareadywriter
Sep 16th 2009, 05:05 PM
Is this referring to heaven (salvation)? Or to rest (peace)? Are they synonymous?


Z.


14 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,"

What does it mean NOT to be a partaker of Christ? Thats sounds really bad. Last time I checked...He was my only hope for eternal life....:dunno:
From the sound of this verse, I get the impression that if I DON"T hold the beginning of my confidence to the end....that I WON"T be able to partake of Christ.:hmm:

Hawkins
Sep 17th 2009, 05:56 AM
Lk 11:14-18 "And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."

Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This seems like a contradiction. Most would say these people in Matthew 7 are false converts because it says "I never knew you", but how would they have cast out devils if a house divided against itself cannot stand. Satan would not use these people to cast out devils, so how do we make sense of this? Did they get saved, cast out devils, and then lose their salvation? Or what?

Thanks,

Z.


Only the correct kind of faith saves, work doesn't save. So casting out devils as a 'work' itself doesn't save.

Casting out demons in Jesus name is efficient, as they are afraid of our Lord. But sometimes someone will use this action to glorify himself, or to gain profit of some kind. They cast out demons but they don't save souls. In contrary, this kind of people may lead away souls. They borrow the name of God but to server their own benefits. It is against the Commandment and thus against God's will. They are thus the evil doers.

penofareadywriter
Sep 17th 2009, 01:56 PM
Only the correct kind of faith saves, work doesn't save. So casting out devils as a 'work' itself doesn't save.

Casting out demons in Jesus name is efficient, as they are afraid of our Lord. But sometimes someone will use this action to glorify himself, or to gain profit of some kind. They cast out demons but they don't save souls. In contrary, this kind of people may lead away souls. They borrow the name of God but to server their own benefits. It is against the Commandment and thus against God's will. They are thus the evil doers.


This is not Biblical. John 9: 30 "The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him'

And...13 "Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We[a (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-27595a)] exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered[b (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-27598b)] them, and prevailed against them,[c (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NKJV-27598c)] so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

Using the name of Jesus is not some magic word. It is a seal of authority that a believer carries.
Just as in the past, when a King would send a representative in his name, the representative would carry the kings authority. If this person was found out to be an imposter..they were most likely punished or killed.

So all that to say.... these ones in discussion were at one point true believers.

Rookie78
Sep 17th 2009, 04:54 PM
Let us remember that Jesus said that if you deny Him, He will deny you:

Matthew 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Could not Judas Iscariot have said the same things Jesus says others would say to him in the end?

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

and Jesus would deny Judas, even though He physically knew him.

BroRog
Sep 17th 2009, 06:34 PM
Let us remember that Jesus said that if you deny Him, He will deny you:

Matthew 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Could not Judas Iscariot have said the same things Jesus says others would say to him in the end?

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

and Jesus would deny Judas, even though He physically knew him.

Good point. I wonder if Judas was among the Seventy in Luke 10?

David Taylor
Sep 17th 2009, 06:51 PM
We are to learn from Israel and her testing in the wilderness. They ALL were "delivered out of Egypt" (a picture of the believer being delivered out of the world) and they ALL were baptized into Moses. But they DID NOT ALL make it to the promise land.
This is the lesson we are to learn. This is one of the main topics of the book of Hebrews.

And even better learning instrument on this concept that Israel, is Jesus Himself...a more perfect teaching tool that Israel.

Notice what happens if you replace 'Israel' with 'Jesus' in your post above:


We are to learn from Jesus and his testing in the wilderness. Jesus was was "delivered out of Egypt" (a picture of the believer being delivered out of the world) and Jesus was baptized into Moses. But Jesus DID make it to the promise land.
This is the lesson we are to learn. This is one of the main topics of the book of Hebrews.

Interesting parallel...of pre-type (Israel), and fulfillment (Jesus).

penofareadywriter
Sep 21st 2009, 03:21 PM
And even better learning instrument on this concept that Israel, is Jesus Himself...a more perfect teaching tool that Israel.

Notice what happens if you replace 'Israel' with 'Jesus' in your post above:


We are to learn from Jesus and his testing in the wilderness. Jesus was was "delivered out of Egypt" (a picture of the believer being delivered out of the world) and Jesus was baptized into Moses. But Jesus DID make it to the promise land.
This is the lesson we are to learn. This is one of the main topics of the book of Hebrews.

Interesting parallel...of pre-type (Israel), and fulfillment (Jesus).


I agree! I believe Jesus HAD to represent the people He came to save. The High priest HAD to identify AND represent the people.

timmyb
Sep 21st 2009, 07:59 PM
So, you're saying intimacy with God is a requirement to "stay saved"?

Z.


Jesus does say that many will be offended with him before the end. Intimacy is the safeguard against offense.

I think the OSAS corner severely underestimates the power of offense and an offended heart. Yes there will be many who have gifts of miracles and yes it will be very possible that many of them will be offended at God over the way he will do things in the end and that will cause them to choose to walk away from the faith.

Timmy

penofareadywriter
Sep 21st 2009, 08:03 PM
Jesus does say that many will be offended with him before the end. Intimacy is the safeguard against offense.

I think the OSAS corner severely underestimates the power of offense and an offended heart. Yes there will be many who have gifts of miracles and yes it will be very possible that many of them will be offended at God over the way he will do things in the end and that will cause them to choose to walk away from the faith.

Timmy


Thats what MY Bible says to! :idea:

Brother Mark
Sep 21st 2009, 08:07 PM
Yet they were justified by the blood on the doorposts, so weren't they saved? Is the promised land heaven? In Hebrews, it speaks of Esau. Of Esau, it says he lost his "inheritance" or "birth right". I don't necessarily think this to be heaven. You?

Z.

For Esau, perhaps it was heaven because scripture called him "godless" in Hebrews and immoral. But certainly, the promised land is not heaven but rather the abundant life here on earth where we have overcome all the strongholds in our heart such as lust, anger, etc. Each of which is pictured by a major city in the book of Joshua.

But not entering into the promised land doesn't mean we don't enter into heaven.

timmyb
Sep 21st 2009, 08:39 PM
Thats what MY Bible says to! :idea:

no way! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

ZAB
Sep 22nd 2009, 12:55 PM
Jesus does say that many will be offended with him before the end. Intimacy is the safeguard against offense.

Yes. My friend always says, "if you cannot see God's hand, then trust His heart". Security in God's love for you will surely be a safeguard against offence, no matter what you're facing.


I think the OSAS corner severely underestimates the power of offense and an offended heart. Yes there will be many who have gifts of miracles and yes it will be very possible that many of them will be offended at God over the way he will do things in the end and that will cause them to choose to walk away from the faith.

Timmy

Personally, I believe in eternal salvation (not necessarily OSAS as it has been taught), so that viewpoint would be difficult to cling to. I do not believe we can walk away from the faith. The Holy Spirit will continue to move upon our hearts and woo us until we repent. David said, if he made his bed in hell, YET God is there (Ps 139). Sadly, these believers, IMO, were genuinely saved. However, they had no intimacy with God. I think this is what these verses in Matthew 7 are trying to teach... that it is possible to be saved, yet never really grow up into intimacy with the One who saved you. Will you go to heaven? Yes. Will you reach your full potential? No.

Thanks for your input,

Z.

timmyb
Sep 22nd 2009, 02:33 PM
But if it was such a big deal and if we all go to heaven then why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 4:1 that people will literally depart from the faith giving in to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons... reality is you can't depart from somewhere you have never been... that in itself is physically let alone spiritually illogical.

The reality is that doctrines of demons are being taught in the church today, and when God doesn't conform to those doctrines there will be many who will be so offended at this they will say that God is really not who he says he is and will deny him and accept Antichrist as a result because he will fit the doctrines they have been taught more than the way God actually is.

Have you ever seen the attitude and actions of someone truly offended? I can't remember where this proverb is but it says something to this effect... A brother offended is harder to win than a strong city.

Blessings

Timmy

ZAB
Sep 22nd 2009, 03:20 PM
But if it was such a big deal and if we all go to heaven then why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 4:1 that people will literally depart from the faith giving in to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons... reality is you can't depart from somewhere you have never been... that in itself is physically let alone spiritually illogical.

Someone who is genuinely saved will have the witness of the Holy Ghost to keep them (1 Jn 5:6-10; Rom 8:16). The Bible also says (in the parable of the sower) that there will be people who had one foot in and one foot out. There are degrees of heart devotion. There are also tares among the wheat. And again, we are not in a race toward heaven; that is not the goal. Our reward is IN heaven (1 Pet 1:4; Heb 10:34; etc).


The reality is that doctrines of demons are being taught in the church today, and when God doesn't conform to those doctrines there will be many who will be so offended at this they will say that God is really not who he says he is and will deny him and accept Antichrist as a result because he will fit the doctrines they have been taught more than the way God actually is.

I sincerely believe that God will give these ignorant people space to repent. If they indeed have the witness of the Holy Spirit, they will see the light. If not, they never had the witness to begin with. They are tares among the wheat.


Have you ever seen the attitude and actions of someone truly offended? I can't remember where this proverb is but it says something to this effect... A brother offended is harder to win than a strong city.

Blessings

Timmy

Yes. Hard, but not impossible. It's by the Lord's mercies that we're not consumed.


Z.

Brother Mark
Sep 22nd 2009, 03:34 PM
But if it was such a big deal and if we all go to heaven then why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 4:1 that people will literally depart from the faith giving in to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons... reality is you can't depart from somewhere you have never been... that in itself is physically let alone spiritually illogical.

The reality is that doctrines of demons are being taught in the church today, and when God doesn't conform to those doctrines there will be many who will be so offended at this they will say that God is really not who he says he is and will deny him and accept Antichrist as a result because he will fit the doctrines they have been taught more than the way God actually is.

Have you ever seen the attitude and actions of someone truly offended? I can't remember where this proverb is but it says something to this effect... A brother offended is harder to win than a strong city.

Blessings

Timmy

Just a brief note on my OSAS/NOSAS stance. I don't believe that one can be saved, lost and then saved again. Right now, I lean towards someone can become lost after being saved, but it's real hard to do, and if it happens, they are toast and will never be able to repent again seeing as it would require Jesus to be crucified a second time.

Having said that, 1 John addresses the issue you bring up about departing from the faith.

1 John 2:18-20

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
NASU

Anyway, just something to bring to the table.

penofareadywriter
Sep 22nd 2009, 03:48 PM
Just a brief note on my OSAS/NOSAS stance. I don't believe that one can be saved, lost and then saved again. Right now, I lean towards someone can become lost after being saved, but it's real hard to do, and if it happens, they are toast and will never be able to repent again seeing as it would require Jesus to be crucified a second time.

I agree.


Having said that, 1 John addresses the issue you bring up about departing from the faith.

1 John 2:18-20

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
NASU

Anyway, just something to bring to the table.


If kept in context...Jonh is clearly talking about wolfs in sheep's clothing that were trying to lead people to themselves. He is not talking about apostasy or falling away.

Brother Mark
Sep 22nd 2009, 03:52 PM
If kept in context...Jonh is clearly talking about wolfs in sheep's clothing that were trying to lead people to themselves. He is not talking about apostasy or falling away.

That's the point. That is someone "leaves the faith", John is arguing they were never part of the faith. He's not speaking of false prophets as much as he's speaking of those that leave. For instance, we see some on here occasionally. They come back saying they no longer believe in God but they once were Christian. IMO, they were never believers to begin with and I think, that is what 1 John is saying too.

There are other passages that speak to becoming an unbeliever. IMO, leaving the faith doesn't necessarily speak to that situation like Hebrews 6 does or some other passages.

ZAB
Sep 22nd 2009, 04:40 PM
1 John 2:18-20

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
NASU


Amen. Thank you for your input. There are indeed tares mixed in with the wheat. But all will be revelealed in its time.

Z.

Brother Mark
Sep 22nd 2009, 04:54 PM
Amen. Thank you for your input. There are indeed tares mixed in with the wheat. But all will be revelealed in its time.

Z.

Did you see my response to your note on Esau? Scripture says Esau was godless. Doesn't that mean he was without God?

ZAB
Sep 22nd 2009, 05:49 PM
Did you see my response to your note on Esau? Scripture says Esau was godless. Doesn't that mean he was without God?

I would assume so, yes. Without God where? Spirit? Soul?

Z.

Brother Mark
Sep 22nd 2009, 06:00 PM
I would assume so, yes. Without God where? Spirit? Soul?

Z.

Well here's the post I wrote earlier.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZAB http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2206717#post2206717)
Yet they were justified by the blood on the doorposts, so weren't they saved? Is the promised land heaven? In Hebrews, it speaks of Esau. Of Esau, it says he lost his "inheritance" or "birth right". I don't necessarily think this to be heaven. You?

Z.

And my response


For Esau, perhaps it was heaven because scripture called him "godless" in Hebrews and immoral. But certainly, the promised land is not heaven but rather the abundant life here on earth where we have overcome all the strongholds in our heart such as lust, anger, etc. Each of which is pictured by a major city in the book of Joshua.

But not entering into the promised land doesn't mean we don't enter into heaven. Here's the scripture.

Heb 12:14-17

14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
NASU

Esau was a godless person. I would take that to mean that he was godless in all areas of his person.

ZAB
Sep 22nd 2009, 06:58 PM
Well here's the post I wrote earlier.



And my response

Here's the scripture.

Heb 12:14-17

14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
NASU

Esau was a godless person. I would take that to mean that he was godless in all areas of his person.

Yeah. that seems to be so. Is it possible to be "godfull" (not a real word, haha), and yet sell your "birthright"?

Z.

Brother Mark
Sep 22nd 2009, 07:14 PM
Yeah. that seems to be so. Is it possible to be "godfull" (not a real word, haha), and yet sell your "birthright"?

Z.

I think he ended up lost. I suppose anyone who has suffered, might have at some point questioned if it was worth it. I know in my immaturity, I have. But to walk away from it all, that's a hard thing to do. In Psalms 73, Asaph said he almost slipped. He was embittered at God. He had the mind of a beast. Yet, God held him by his right hand. I think that is significant. God held him. Not the other way around.