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TrustingFollower
Sep 13th 2009, 12:54 AM
Reading Acts it jumped out at me the fact it is mentioned in passing at Paul got his hair cut to keep a vow, what vow did he take and what is the significance of the hair cut? I know that Paul being a Pharisee before his calling would have had long curls from the temple of his head, but can someone point me to something in the bible that would explain the hair cut now. I will post the verse that got me thinking about this.

Acts 18

18 ¶Paul, having remained many days longer, took leave of the brethren and put out to sea for Syria, and with him were Priscilla and Aquila. In Cenchrea he had his hair cut, for he was keeping a vow.

-SEEKING-
Sep 13th 2009, 12:58 AM
I think that he did it for the benefit of those Jewish hearers. Perhaps he made a vow to not be a stumbling block for them to be able to listen to his message.

TrustingFollower
Sep 13th 2009, 01:01 AM
I think that he did it for the benefit of those Jewish hearers. Perhaps he made a vow to not be a stumbling block for them to be able to listen to his message.
That is the part I don't get. The mosaic law forbid the cutting of the hair on their temples so for Paul to cut his hair it would be a stumbling block to the Jews.

-SEEKING-
Sep 13th 2009, 01:04 AM
Hmm. Yeah that's a good point. I didn't know that applied to all the Jews.

Desperaux
Sep 13th 2009, 01:14 AM
He could have taken the Nazirite vow, such as Samson did in the OT. It is a temporary vow where one doesn't take a razor to the hair, but at the end of the vow he would cut his hair.

I found these footnotes:


(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2018:18&version=CEV#en-CEV-24143)Acts 18:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2018:18&version=CEV#en-CEV-24143) he had his head shaved: Paul had promised to be a "Nazirite" for a while. This meant that for the time of the promise, he could not cut his hair or drink wine. When the time was over, he would have to cut his hair and offer a sacrifice to God.

TrustingFollower
Sep 13th 2009, 01:19 AM
He could have taken the Nazirite vow, such as Samson did in the OT. It is a temporary vow where one doesn't take a razor to the hair, but at the end of the vow he would cut his hair.

I found these footnotes:

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2018:18&version=CEV#en-CEV-24143"]
That is a good possible answer, is there anywhere in scripture that confirms the vow of the Nazirite?

The other question would be. Wouldn't the Nazirite vow be voided then after Jesus did the work on the cross and instituted grace? After all Paul got all his doctrine directly from revelation by Jesus.

Desperaux
Sep 13th 2009, 01:24 AM
That is a good possible answer, is there anywhere in scripture that confirms the vow of the Nazirite?

The other question would be. Wouldn't the Nazirite vow be voided then after Jesus did the work on the cross and instituted grace? After all Paul got all his doctrine directly from revelation by Jesus.

There is no scriptural proof that Paul took the Nazirite vow, but Paul certainly approved of the vow and I believe he alluded to the practice in Acts 21:20-24. He also approved of fasting and we are encouraged to fast or to sacrifice some thing to the Lord, and separate ourselves for a time from any manner of things in life to Him and His glory.

Paul was an extremely wonderful example to us all of personal holiness, and IMO, this vow he made, whether the Nazirite vow or not, was obviously one for personal holiness and dedication to Jesus Christ and His service, and toward the perfecting and refining of his life in Christ.

nzyr
Sep 13th 2009, 01:37 AM
I believe it was a nazarite vow. But Acts doesn't specify.

JohnDB
Sep 13th 2009, 01:59 AM
I could have been a Nazarite type vow...but also possibly not. Dunno.

There were several vows and types of vows a person could/would make. There was one where a person would shave off their beard for humility...and a good reason why the disciples didn't recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus. Jesus was finally seen without his beard and no one recognized him without it until the blessing and breaking of the bread at dinner.

Then the hands of the master would have been recognized as being the standard of which they had followed so dilligently.

freedmanISA611
Sep 13th 2009, 02:06 AM
There is no scriptural proof that Paul took the Nazirite vow, but Paul certainly approved of the vow and I believe he alluded to the practice in Acts 21:20-24. He also approved of fasting and we are encouraged to fast or to sacrifice some thing to the Lord, and separate ourselves for a time from any manner of things in life to Him and His glory.

Paul was an extremely wonderful example to us all of personal holiness, and IMO, this vow he made, whether the Nazirite vow or not, was obviously one for personal holiness and dedication to Jesus Christ and His service, and toward the perfecting and refining of his life in Christ.

Compare these verses for a moment:


(Acts 15:1 [ESV])
The Jerusalem Council

But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."


Paul made a point to be against FORCiNG the practises and customs of Judaism on Christians as a condition of salvation.

(Acts 16:3 [ESV])
Timothy Joins Paul and Silas

Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.


But he still practiced some of the customs... not because they were conditions of salvation. Why? Romans 12-14 might explain it some... To be brief, look at these verses...


(Romans 14:5 [ESV])

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.


(Romans 14:6 [ESV])

The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.


(Romans 14:7 [ESV])

For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.


WE are not bound by "Law" but by liberty, and religious observances to honor the Lord is an OPTION we have. The "sin" is binding it on others as a condition of salvation that the Lord Jesus did not bind on us.

yes, we do have that liberty... :o

Here are some verses on that...

ROM 8:21 that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

1COR 10:29 but conscience, I mean, not thine own, but that of the other: for why is my liberty judged by another conscience?

2COR 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of [the] Lord [is, there is] liberty.

GAL 2:4 and [it was] on account of the false brethren brought in surreptitiously, who came in surreptitiously to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage;

GAL 5:13 For *ye* have been called to liberty, brethren; only [do] not [turn] liberty into an opportunity to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

HEB 13:23 Know that our brother Timotheus is set at liberty; with whom, if he should come soon, I will see you.

JAS 1:25 But *he* that fixes his view on [the] perfect law, that of liberty, and abides in [it], being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of [the] work, *he* shall be blessed in his doing.

JAS 2:12 So speak ye, and so act, as those that are to be judged by [the] law of liberty;

1PET 2:16 as free, and not as having liberty as a cloak of malice, but as God's bondmen.

2PET 2:19 promising them liberty, while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a man is subdued, by him is he also brought into slavery.

Desperaux
Sep 13th 2009, 02:09 AM
Compare these verses for a moment:


(Acts 15:1 [ESV])

The Jerusalem Council

But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."


Paul made a point to be against FORCiNG the practises and customs of Judaism on Christians as a condition of salvation.

(Acts 16:3 [ESV])

Timothy Joins Paul and Silas

Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.


But he still practiced some of the customs... not because they were conditions of salvation. Why? Romans 12-14 might explain it some... To be brief, look at these verses...


(Romans 14:5 [ESV])

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.


(Romans 14:6 [ESV])

The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.


(Romans 14:7 [ESV])

For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.


WE are not bound by "Law" but by liberty, and religious observances to honor the Lord is an OPTION we have. The "sin" is binding it on others as a condition of salvation that the Lord Jesus did not bind on us.

yes, we do have that liberty... :o

Here are some verses on that...

ROM 8:21 that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

1COR 10:29 but conscience, I mean, not thine own, but that of the other: for why is my liberty judged by another conscience?

2COR 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of [the] Lord [is, there is] liberty.

GAL 2:4 and [it was] on account of the false brethren brought in surreptitiously, who came in surreptitiously to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage;

GAL 5:13 For *ye* have been called to liberty, brethren; only [do] not [turn] liberty into an opportunity to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

HEB 13:23 Know that our brother Timotheus is set at liberty; with whom, if he should come soon, I will see you.

JAS 1:25 But *he* that fixes his view on [the] perfect law, that of liberty, and abides in [it], being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of [the] work, *he* shall be blessed in his doing.

JAS 2:12 So speak ye, and so act, as those that are to be judged by [the] law of liberty;

1PET 2:16 as free, and not as having liberty as a cloak of malice, but as God's bondmen.

2PET 2:19 promising them liberty, while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a man is subdued, by him is he also brought into slavery.



Yep, free indeed!

crossnote
Sep 13th 2009, 05:14 AM
Not to throw a ---->monkey wrench--->into the mix but many good commentators say that the shoring of the hair refers to Aquila and not Paul. So there --->:eek:

Desperaux
Sep 13th 2009, 05:24 AM
Not to throw a ---->monkey wrench--->into the mix but many good commentators say that the shoring of the hair refers to Aquila and not Paul. So there --->:eek:

I've read that, too! :saint:

Steven3
Sep 13th 2009, 06:35 AM
That is the part I don't get. The mosaic law forbid the cutting of the hair on their temples so for Paul to cut his hair it would be a stumbling block to the Jews.There's nothing wrong with totally shaving the head, even Nazarites did that eventually (Num6:18). For Jews it was acceptable as a sign of mourning:

Job 1:20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.

Jews could shave entirely their head, but not partly. It's possible that what Lev19,21, Jer9 refers to is primarily Egyptian styling where certain parts of the hair were left - like a mohican.

Leviticus 19:27 You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

Leviticus 21:5 They shall not make bald patches on their heads, nor shave off the edges of their beards, nor make any cuts on their body.

Jeremiah 9:26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, the sons of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the desert who cut the corners of their hair, for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart.”

...but difficult to know from ancient pictures as so many Egyptian men shaved their heads, partly, then wore wigs.
http://historylink101.net/egypt_1/a-hair_styles.htm

nzyr
Sep 13th 2009, 10:23 AM
Jesus was finally seen without his beard...
Where does it say that Jesus was seen without his beard? It says he appeared in another form but it doesn't mention his beard.

After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. (Mark 16:12)

TrustingFollower
Sep 13th 2009, 10:10 PM
I would have to go out on the limb here and say that it would not be a Nazirite vow. From reading in the book of Acts it is clear that Paul cut his hair during his 2 missionary journey. So with that being said I would say Paul would not take a vow at this point in his ministry that would prevent him from partaking in the Lord's supper with the brethren in the churches he was planting.

freedmanISA611
Sep 13th 2009, 11:05 PM
I could have been a Nazarite type vow...but also possibly not. Dunno.

There were several vows and types of vows a person could/would make. There was one where a person would shave off their beard for humility...and a good reason why the disciples didn't recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus. Jesus was finally seen without his beard and no one recognized him without it until the blessing and breaking of the bread at dinner.

Then the hands of the master would have been recognized as being the standard of which they had followed so dilligently.

If I remember right, wasn't Jesus' beard 'plucked out' before he was crucified? Let us also consider the brutal beating He recieved that would have marred His appearance.

nzyr
Sep 13th 2009, 11:16 PM
I would have to go out on the limb here and say that it would not be a Nazirite vow. From reading in the book of Acts it is clear that Paul cut his hair during his 2 missionary journey. So with that being said I would say Paul would not take a vow at this point in his ministry that would prevent him from partaking in the Lord's supper with the brethren in the churches he was planting.I don't know of any other vow that involves cutting the hair upon its completion as in Numbers chapter 6.

miepie
Sep 13th 2009, 11:32 PM
JFB Commentary:
That it was the Nazarite vow (Numbers 6:1-27) is not likely. It was probably one made in one of his seasons of difficulty or danger, in prosecution of which he cuts off his hair and hastens to Jerusalem to offer the requisite sacrifice within the prescribed thirty days. This explains the haste with which he leaves Ephesus (Acts 18:21), and the subsequent observance, on the recommendation of the brethren, of a similar vow (Acts 21:24). This one at Corinth was voluntary, and shows that even in heathen countries he systematically studied the prejudices of his Jewish brethren.


Bible Knowledge Commentary:
Paul then left Corinth, heading for his sending church, Antioch on the Orontes River in Syria. But before he left he had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, Corinth’s southeastern port, because of a vow he had taken. When Paul made this vow is unstated. He may have made it when he left Troas for Macedonia, or at the beginning of his ministry at Corinth, or more likely, before the Lord gave him the vision (vv. 9-10). During the vow Paul would have let his hair grow. Now the time of the Nazirite vow was over (after about a year and a half), and Paul got a haircut at Cenchrea (cf. Num. 6:1-21).
Josephus wrote about some Jews who immediately after a misfortune, shaved their heads and refused to offer sacrifices for 30 days (Jewish Wars 2. 15. 1). If this is the case Paul would have cut his hair at the beginning of his vow. But this is somewhat improbable because there is no mention of an illness or other affliction (unless 2 Cor. 12:7-9 fits in here).

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

TrustingFollower
Sep 14th 2009, 12:54 AM
If I remember right, wasn't Jesus' beard 'plucked out' before he was crucified? Let us also consider the brutal beating He recieved that would have marred His appearance.
Nowhere in the bible does it say Jesus had his beard plucked out nor does it say His beard was shaved off. Who ever told you this is relating a falicy to you. It would be best for you to look these things up in the bible for yourself rather than excepting someones else's story of things.

As far as what scars were still present on Jesus after he received His immortal body. The bible only mentions the holes in his hands and feet along with the one in his side from when the soldier poked him. The brutal marks from the scourging must have been healed through divine healing from the God the father, because none of the apostles just taken that sight without some sort of mention of it in the gospels. Now the reason they did not recognize Jesus, it's because He prevented them from recognizing Him so he could teach them all the mysteries of the scriptures. After that Jesus opened their eyes again.

Luke 24

16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him.

Luke 24

31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.

Slug1
Sep 14th 2009, 01:28 AM
I would have to go out on the limb here and say that it would not be a Nazirite vow. From reading in the book of Acts it is clear that Paul cut his hair during his 2 missionary journey. So with that being said I would say Paul would not take a vow at this point in his ministry that would prevent him from partaking in the Lord's supper with the brethren in the churches he was planting.


Reading Acts it jumped out at me the fact it is mentioned in passing at Paul got his hair cut to keep a vow, what vow did he take and what is the significance of the hair cut? I know that Paul being a Pharisee before his calling would have had long curls from the temple of his head, but can someone point me to something in the bible that would explain the hair cut now. I will post the verse that got me thinking about this.

Acts 18

18 ¶Paul, having remained many days longer, took leave of the brethren and put out to sea for Syria, and with him were Priscilla and Aquila. In Cenchrea he had his hair cut, for he was keeping a vow.Browsing through the thread here, I can't help but recall this scripture:


1 Cor:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+9&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28557c)] that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+9&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28558d)] but under law toward Christ[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+9&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28558e)]), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+9&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28559f)] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

I also don't think it was a Nazirite vow. More that Paul did what he did cause he was simply led to... for the gospel's sake (v23).

Steven3
Sep 14th 2009, 02:09 AM
Nowhere in the bible does it say Jesus had his beard plucked out nor does it say His beard was shaved off. It's found in a Messianic prophecy:

Is50:6 I gave my back to those who strike, and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard; I hid not my face from disgrace and spitting.

JohnDB
Sep 14th 2009, 02:38 AM
yep

gotta be careful with what you claim is true. Someone might show you otherwise.

TrustingFollower
Sep 14th 2009, 01:57 PM
It's found in a Messianic prophecy:

Is50:6 I gave my back to those who strike, and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard; I hid not my face from disgrace and spitting.
It says he gave his cheeks to those who pluck out the beard, but it does not say they did pluck out his beard. This shows that He was obedient and did not hide away any thing, but rather subjected himself to them for our sake. To use this as an argument to say they plucked out his beard when the scourged him would be a stretch.

TrustingFollower
Sep 14th 2009, 02:01 PM
Browsing through the thread here, I can't help but recall this scripture:


1 Cor:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+9&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28557c)] that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+9&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28558d)] but under law toward Christ[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+9&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28558e)]), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+9&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28559f)] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

I also don't think it was a Nazirite vow. More that Paul did what he did cause he was simply led to... for the gospel's sake (v23).
I thought of this verse too, then I pondered the following verse.

Acts 21

21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

Paul's practice was to teach not to keep the law anymore. So this may just be one of those things we will not know the answer to until we are together with the Lord and He reveals all the mysteries of the scriptures to us in heaven.

JohnDB
Sep 14th 2009, 03:08 PM
It says he gave his cheeks to those who pluck out the beard, but it does not say they did pluck out his beard. This shows that He was obedient and did not hide away any thing, but rather subjected himself to them for our sake. To use this as an argument to say they plucked out his beard when the scourged him would be a stretch.

Your logic here doesn't work in light of scripture...we do know that Romans did pull out the beards of those men that they crucified or scurged. All Jewish men who were devout did not shave or trim their beards at all...it was a form of humiliation...along with crucifing them naked.

And we do know that Jesus was beaten within an inch of his life to start with and that he was beaten with fists...

Just simply admit that you were mistaken...anybody and everybody makes mistakes from time to time...even some of the most popular preachers in the world.

nzyr
Sep 14th 2009, 03:29 PM
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:
He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. (Numbers 6-1-3) All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no rasor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. (Numbers 6:5)

And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,
And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.
And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:
And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.
And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.
And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:
And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine. This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation. (Numbers 6:13-21)
And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow. (Acts 18:18)

And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
(Acts 21:20-26)

It sounds like Paul observed some of the old testament traditions. After all he used to be a pharisee.

Rookie78
Sep 14th 2009, 05:15 PM
Found this from Paul:

1 Cor. 11:14

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Slug1
Sep 14th 2009, 05:26 PM
Found this from Paul:

1 Cor. 11:14

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?Paul was talking about Corintian customs and in v16 tells us that we don't follow such customs.

Men can have long or short hair... in Corinth, if a man had long hair it was a shame cause that was simply their culture. Paul warned them not to drag this into the church.

Desperaux
Sep 14th 2009, 07:05 PM
Your logic here doesn't work in light of scripture...we do know that Romans did pull out the beards of those men that they crucified or scurged. All Jewish men who were devout did not shave or trim their beards at all...it was a form of humiliation...along with crucifing them naked.

And we do know that Jesus was beaten within an inch of his life to start with and that he was beaten with fists...

Just simply admit that you were mistaken...anybody and everybody makes mistakes from time to time...even some of the most popular preachers in the world.

Isaiah 50:6
I offered my back to those who beat me
and my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard.
I did not hide my face
from mockery and spitting.


I agree, the soldiers did pull out His beard.

However, I don't believe it had anything to do with the men on the way to Emmaeus not recognizing Him. He was either cloked in a form that kept Him from being recognized, or they were simply blinded to Him for a time, until He broke the bread--then they knew!

nzyr
Sep 14th 2009, 08:20 PM
Found this from Paul:

1 Cor. 11:14

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
I believe the exception was when a nazarite was observing a vow. A lot of scholars believe that most of the people who vowed the nazarite vow took it for limited amount of time. I think the bible only mentions three who were lifelong nazarites. They were Samson, Samuel, and John the Baptist. So Paul's hair probably didn't get very long.

TrustingFollower
Sep 16th 2009, 02:10 AM
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:
He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. (Numbers 6-1-3) All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no rasor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. (Numbers 6:5)

And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,
And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.
And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:
And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.
And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.
And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:
And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine. This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation. (Numbers 6:13-21)
And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow. (Acts 18:18)

And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
(Acts 21:20-26)

It sounds like Paul observed some of the old testament traditions. After all he used to be a pharisee.
I know about the ways of the Nazarite from Numbers, but how in the world could we make a case for Paul having taken this vow. Paul would not have been able to partake in the Lord's supper. Paul was planting churches and would have had the Lord's supper in order to teach them about what Jesus taught. Back in that day they shared in it daily.

Acts 2

46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,

So Paul spending great lengths of time at a place when he planted a church would not forsake the Lord's supper.

Acts 11

25 And he left for Tarsus to look for Saul;
26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

I think the case would be better made to say that Paul took some sort of vow and was applying what Jesus said about making your yes a yes and your no a no. Paul was keeping his word for what ever he said he was going to cut his hair for.

Matthew 5

33 ¶"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, `YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.´
34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.
36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 "But let your statement be, `Yes, yes´ or `No, no´; anything beyond these is of evil.

nzyr
Sep 16th 2009, 11:24 PM
...how in the world could we make a case for Paul having taken this vow. Paul would not have been able to partake in the Lord's supper. Paul was planting churches and would have had the Lord's supper in order to teach them about what Jesus taught.
I'm not saying I know for certainly that Paul had vowed a nazarite vow. I'm saying that's what it looks like. He could have taken it while he was traveling. It was a temporary vow.

JohnDB
Sep 17th 2009, 12:46 AM
Isaiah 50:6
I offered my back to those who beat me
and my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard.
I did not hide my face
from mockery and spitting.


I agree, the soldiers did pull out His beard.

However, I don't believe it had anything to do with the men on the way to Emmaeus not recognizing Him. He was either cloked in a form that kept Him from being recognized, or they were simply blinded to Him for a time, until He broke the bread--then they knew!

A major change of one day seeing someone alive and them having a full beard...and never seeing them without one and then watching them die...and you having to be told which one is him. I would dare say that Jesus' hair was also cut. To seeing Jesus with no beard or hair on his face would so change his appearance...and after watching Jesus die...you wouldn't even begin to think that this person walking along with you, who isn't wearing Rabbi clothes, you wouldn't even begin to think that it was Jesus...no one ever thought about coming back to life...it wasn't a concept in their heads.

So...that is why they didn't recognize Jesus till Jesus said the prayer and broke the bread...That procedure is a major one for all Disciples of Rabbi...and once they tried to mandate it for all Rabbi but because of the differences between the style of Rabbis blessing the meal they couldn't and wouldn't do it...it became a signature thing for each Rabbi with the timing of which particular prayer that each Rabbi would say in relation to eating.

Jesus' was peculiar in that He gave thanks (we aren't told which memorized prayer it was specifcally that He said but we have a good idea) and then breaking the bread. Most said it either before or after the whole meal was served or in the middle of the serving of the meal. Jesus grabbed the bread (served family style) and gave thanks for it and then broke it and passed it out...rather unique and odd...and something that any disciple would be concentrating on learning.

Walstib
Sep 17th 2009, 01:10 AM
A major change of one day seeing someone alive and them having a full beard...and never seeing them without one and then watching them die...and you having to be told which one is him. I would dare say that Jesus' hair was also cut. To seeing Jesus with no beard or hair on his face would so change his appearance...and after watching Jesus die...you wouldn't even begin to think that this person walking along with you, who isn't wearing Rabbi clothes, you wouldn't even begin to think that it was Jesus...no one ever thought about coming back to life...it wasn't a concept in their heads.

So...that is why they didn't recognize Jesus till Jesus said the prayer and broke the bread...That procedure is a major one for all Disciples of Rabbi...and once they tried to mandate it for all Rabbi but because of the differences between the style of Rabbis blessing the meal they couldn't and wouldn't do it...it became a signature thing for each Rabbi with the timing of which particular prayer that each Rabbi would say in relation to eating.

Jesus' was peculiar in that He gave thanks (we aren't told which memorized prayer it was specifcally that He said but we have a good idea) and then breaking the bread. Most said it either before or after the whole meal was served or in the middle of the serving of the meal. Jesus grabbed the bread (served family style) and gave thanks for it and then broke it and passed it out...rather unique and odd...and something that any disciple would be concentrating on learning.

Now that seems to me like a lot of needless between the lines supposing.

The scriptures were already posted that said the God did the eye closing and opening in regards to recognition.

How does that fit with your line of reasoning? Scripturally.

literaryjoe
Sep 17th 2009, 01:31 AM
The text of Leviticus 19:27,
You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.seems difficult to understand when read in isolation. However, the case for understanding this as something pagans did, particularly as part of their mourning practices is very strong. First let’s look at it in context of the immediately surrounding verses.
[v 26] You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes. These were both the practices of the pagan cults surrounding them in Canaan, so we have an association established here. Then in verse 28 we read,
You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves; I am the LORD.So there we have mourning rituals. So far we have a case, but not necessarily a convincing one, however, the tide changes when we note Leviticus 21,
…Speak to the priests…and say to them, no one shall make himself unclean for the dead…except for his closest relatives…(v5) They shall not make bald patches on their heads, nor shave off the edges of their beards, nor make any cuts on their body. They shall be holy to their God and not profane the name of their God. And look what the preceding verses say, corresponding precisely to the verses preceding our pertinent passage in chapter 19!
A man or woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. (20:27)So what we have here is double confirmation. The issues of sorcery/fortune telling, pagan worship, and pagan mourning, all activities of the pagan priests are connected, and the command not to “mar the edges of your beard, and not to make bald patches/round off the hair on your temples are connected both to 1. pagan rituals and, specifically 2. mourning rituals, or perhaps the cutting or marring or pulling in an effort to elicit response for purposes of telling fortunes/getting a message from the pagan deity (we see an example of this practiced in 1 Kings 20:28). When we then add in the evidence of Isaiah 15:2-3 where we have Moab in mourning:
“He has gone…to the high places to weep…on every head is baldness; every beard is shorn;”of Jeremiah 9:17-25:
“…call for the mourning women to come…teach your daughters a lament, and each to her neighbor a dirge. For death has come…the dead bodies of men shall fall like dung upon the open field……behold the days are coming…when I will punish…all those who …cut the corners of their hair….”and Jeremiah 48:37-38:
“For every head is shaved and every beard cut off. On all the hands are gashes, and around the waist is sackcloth. On all the housetops of Moab in in the squares there is nothing but lamentation, for I have broken Moab like a vessel for which no one cares, declares the Lord.”I’d say it is pretty conclusive that the command regarding not cutting your beard and not “rounding off” or “making bald patches” pertains to pagan mourning rituals and not to every day fashion practice. The long, curly locks of hair we know from modern Chassidic Jews are not historically evidenced until the early 19th century. These are called peyot or peyos. It is unlikely that the biblical Pharisees wore the long locks hanging down from their temples, and as a result they had absolutely no issue shaving their entire head as part of the process of taking a vow.

The only vow that involves the shaving of the head, the subsequent growing of the hair, and the subsequent shaving of the head at the culmination of the vow was the Nazirite vow.

It is abundantly clear by a comparison of Num 6, Acts 18, Acts 21 and the ancient Jewish extra-biblical text that Paul was indeed involved in a Nazirite vow. A vow which he ends by the shaving of his head again, and the sacrifice of a very expensive list of animals, and by the purchase of those sacrifices for 4 other men who needed to end their vows. History tells us that this list detailed in Numbers 6:13-20 was so expensive that some people were unable to end their vow until such time as they received an inheritance or someone paid for their vow-ending sacrifices. Anyway, my point is that Paul has clearly taken a Nazirite vow. It seems as if Acts 18:18 describes a scenario where after having taken a Nazirite vow, Paul has somehow encountered a contaminate in his journeying and has to re-start his vow, which per Numbers 6:9, involved the re-shaving/re-consecrating of his head.

TrustingFollower
Sep 17th 2009, 08:40 PM
A major change of one day seeing someone alive and them having a full beard...and never seeing them without one and then watching them die...and you having to be told which one is him. I would dare say that Jesus' hair was also cut. To seeing Jesus with no beard or hair on his face would so change his appearance...and after watching Jesus die...you wouldn't even begin to think that this person walking along with you, who isn't wearing Rabbi clothes, you wouldn't even begin to think that it was Jesus...no one ever thought about coming back to life...it wasn't a concept in their heads.

So...that is why they didn't recognize Jesus till Jesus said the prayer and broke the bread...That procedure is a major one for all Disciples of Rabbi...and once they tried to mandate it for all Rabbi but because of the differences between the style of Rabbis blessing the meal they couldn't and wouldn't do it...it became a signature thing for each Rabbi with the timing of which particular prayer that each Rabbi would say in relation to eating.

Jesus' was peculiar in that He gave thanks (we aren't told which memorized prayer it was specifcally that He said but we have a good idea) and then breaking the bread. Most said it either before or after the whole meal was served or in the middle of the serving of the meal. Jesus grabbed the bread (served family style) and gave thanks for it and then broke it and passed it out...rather unique and odd...and something that any disciple would be concentrating on learning.
This is adding a lot to the scriptures and making quite a few assumptions reading into the text to suit your own opinion. If Jesus were to have had his beard pulled out and hair cut, don't you think one of the gospel writers would have included that detail in their writing? They made known the fact that he had a crown of thorns put on his head. They made the fact that they spit in his face known, but they would leave out such a humiliating act such as you are suggesting here. I think not.

JohnDB
Sep 18th 2009, 12:52 AM
Now that seems to me like a lot of needless between the lines supposing.

The scriptures were already posted that said the God did the eye closing and opening in regards to recognition.

How does that fit with your line of reasoning? Scripturally.

Normal behavior...both then and now.

Crucifixion was all about humiliation. Sketches of Crucified figures and what those had seen of the process wrote about it tell us a great deal. As well as detailed descriptions of what a scourging entailed.

IF Rome wanted you executed they had plenty of swords around to do the job quickly. Crucifixion was all about humiliating the person being executed and making their death a spectacle and humiliating and painful.

The Jews prided themselves on hair. Both facial and what you had on top of your head. Baldness was considered a curse from God. Being naked was also humiliating...the better and finer the clothes the more pleasing you thought you appeared...nakedness was from the days of slavery. No one put much money into slaves clothes...if at all. Romans shaved and pulled all their hair out regularly. The Jews thought this horrible. Short hair on top of your head and no beard was their custom for men. Roman women wore theirs long and ornately decorated...braided usually.

The customs of the Telmydeme (disciples following the rabbi) are also known quite well from Targums and Midrash. What their focuses were, what they did, what they hoped to do...

None of the things that I have posted here is any new information or suppositions. Commonly known bits of history glued together to form a more complete picture of the events surrounding the crucifixion and life of these is what we are supposed to do in order to gain a clear understanding of the scriptures. Just because you haven't heard any of this doesn't make it not so. Do some independant true research. Don't wait for your pastor to tell it to you so that you can repeat it or read it in a commentary a hundred and forty years out of date...(all too common on these forums I am afraid)

threebigrocks
Sep 18th 2009, 02:16 AM
JohnDB, how does this answer as Walstrib asked for you to clarify?


Now that seems to me like a lot of needless between the lines supposing.

The scriptures were already posted that said the God did the eye closing and opening in regards to recognition.

How does that fit with your line of reasoning? Scripturally.

Not a lick of scripture, but you did say this:


Commonly known bits of history glued together to form a more complete picture of the events surrounding the crucifixion and life of these is what we are supposed to do in order to gain a clear understanding of the scriptures.

Sure than can give us a picture of what crucifixion was in the day, but we cannot apply that specifically to the crucifixion of Christ as fact.

What does scripture say about it? Together with the Spirit that is where our revelation, understanding and knowledge comes from. History is important, but doesn't hold up to the authority of scripture.

Walstib
Sep 18th 2009, 01:24 PM
Normal behavior...both then and now.

Crucifixion was all about humiliation. Sketches of Crucified figures and what those had seen of the process wrote about it tell us a great deal. As well as detailed descriptions of what a scourging entailed.

IF Rome wanted you executed they had plenty of swords around to do the job quickly. Crucifixion was all about humiliating the person being executed and making their death a spectacle and humiliating and painful.

The Jews prided themselves on hair. Both facial and what you had on top of your head. Baldness was considered a curse from God. Being naked was also humiliating...the better and finer the clothes the more pleasing you thought you appeared...nakedness was from the days of slavery. No one put much money into slaves clothes...if at all. Romans shaved and pulled all their hair out regularly. The Jews thought this horrible. Short hair on top of your head and no beard was their custom for men. Roman women wore theirs long and ornately decorated...braided usually.

The customs of the Telmydeme (disciples following the rabbi) are also known quite well from Targums and Midrash. What their focuses were, what they did, what they hoped to do...

None of the things that I have posted here is any new information or suppositions. Commonly known bits of history glued together to form a more complete picture of the events surrounding the crucifixion and life of these is what we are supposed to do in order to gain a clear understanding of the scriptures.

My daddy told me something when I was young that I try to follow to a large degree.

"Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see."

Now I have come to see in faith we can trust the scriptures and these are to be excluded from this tidbit of wisdom. All your history stuff and midrashy whatever is nothing I am going to take authoritatively. I certainly would never consider teaching from this kind of platform.

I could give you a long diatribe about what carpenters did at that time and suppose what Jesus would have been doing when he was 19. Then we don't really know he ever worked at day at it do we..

Thing is it does not matter what could have happened, what matters is the testimony of what we know happened. What could have happened never trumps what is recorded in the scriptures. Scriptures say it was because God closed and opened their eyes we have no need to go adding in all sorts of maybes.

Talking about it for context is one thing, teaching it true from suppositions is another.


Just because you haven't heard any of this doesn't make it not so. Do some independant true research. Don't wait for your pastor to tell it to you so that you can repeat it or read it in a commentary a hundred and forty years out of date...(all too common on these forums I am afraid)

My this is bold. Are you implying I have not read anything about this sort of thing? Bold indeed. Imposing me into this imaginary category you have drawn up.

How about we loose this useless categorizing and get back to topic. What scriptures do you have that would show your idea is right and I am just misunderstanding when it says God did the eye closing and opening? Another lecture on history and how I need to know what you do is not what I am looking for.

nzyr
Sep 19th 2009, 04:30 AM
The Jews... Baldness was considered a curse from God. I've never heard that before.

Walstib
Sep 19th 2009, 11:41 AM
Pondering last night I wanted to add.

It's one thing to bring context from history and culture to the words of scripture themselves.

It's another thing to add to scripture with these things.

To give light to words or phrases themselves is no big deal, beneficial even. Like knowing how the Greeks at the time viewed the word logos gives insight into the beginning of John.

To start teaching things like Jesus got his beard pulled out and this is the very reason for them not recognizing Him is adding something not there there to begin with.


Thought that may be good to say so I don't seem like some sort of hardcore "no history allowed" :crazy: guy.

TrustingFollower
Sep 27th 2009, 05:29 PM
After further research into the different customs having to do with hair in regard to the Jewish customs. If we look at how God set aside the Levites for service of the temple this would make sense that Paul being set aside by God to be of service for the gospel, that he may have taken the same vow of purification as the Levites did.

Numbers 8

5 ¶Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
6 "Take the Levites from among the sons of Israel and cleanse them.
7 "Thus you shall do to them, for their cleansing: sprinkle purifying water on them, and let them use a razor over their whole body and wash their clothes, and they will be clean.
8 "Then let them take a bull with its grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil; and a second bull you shall take for a sin offering.
9 "So you shall present the Levites before the tent of meeting. You shall also assemble the whole congregation of the sons of Israel,
10 and present the Levites before the LORD; and the sons of Israel shall lay their hands on the Levites.
11 "Aaron then shall present the Levites before the LORD as a wave offering from the sons of Israel, that they may qualify to perform the service of the LORD.
12 "Now the Levites shall lay their hands on the heads of the bulls; then offer the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering to the LORD, to make atonement for the Levites.
13 "You shall have the Levites stand before Aaron and before his sons so as to present them as a wave offering to the LORD.
14 ¶"Thus you shall separate the Levites from among the sons of Israel, and the Levites shall be Mine.
15 "Then after that the Levites may go in to serve the tent of meeting. But you shall cleanse them and present them as a wave offering;
16 for they are wholly given to Me from among the sons of Israel. I have taken them for Myself instead of every first issue of the womb, the firstborn of all the sons of Israel.
17 "For every firstborn among the sons of Israel is Mine, among the men and among the animals; on the day that I struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for Myself.
18 "But I have taken the Levites instead of every firstborn among the sons of Israel.
19 "I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel, to perform the service of the sons of Israel at the tent of meeting and to make atonement on behalf of the sons of Israel, so that there will be no plague among the sons of Israel by their coming near to the sanctuary."
20 ¶Thus did Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the sons of Israel to the Levites; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses concerning the Levites, so the sons of Israel did to them.
21 The Levites, too, purified themselves from sin and washed their clothes; and Aaron presented them as a wave offering before the LORD. Aaron also made atonement for them to cleanse them.
22 Then after that the Levites went in to perform their service in the tent of meeting before Aaron and before his sons; just as the LORD had commanded Moses concerning the Levites, so they did to them.

Now I do not think that Paul would have made the sacrifices like the Levites did as far as bulls and grain offerings and such, because Jesus is our sacrifice, but I can see Paul doing the shaving and washing. The Jews would be custom to seeing a priest that was bald in regard to the vow of purification of the Levites and thus Paul being found bald would still be effective in presenting the gospel to the Jews as wells as to the gentiles.