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Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 12:04 AM
In another thread, it was said that when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
"At that moment man died completely.".
So I asked, "define 'completely dead'."
Instead of an answer, I received a change of words.
"apart from God." "He died Spiritually"
I also asked "where might I find this in Genesis?"
They said
"It extrapolated from the text and from Scripture."
Now, I know this has been discussed along with sin nature but I've never heard a very good explanation w/ scripture, so I thought we'd single out just this one concept and leave sin nature and isms out of it. You know, just keep it simple. Surely such an big and important doctrine can plainly be found and easily confirmed, right? :idea: I no longer buy doctrines that have to be extrapolated.

Butch5
Sep 16th 2009, 12:08 AM
In another thread it was said that when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
"At that moment man died completely.".
So I asked, "define 'completely dead'."
Instead of an answer, I received a change of words.
"apart from God." "He died Spiritually"
I also asked "where might I find this in Genesis?"
They said
"It extrapolated from the text and from Scripture."
Now, I know this has been discussed along with sin nature but I've never heard a very good explanation w/ scripture, so I thought we'd single out just this one concept and leave sin nature and isms out of it. You know, just keep it simple. Surely such an big and important doctrine can plainly be found and easily confirmed, right? :idea: I no longer buy doctrines that have to be extrapolated.

How about dead as a doornail? :pp

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 12:15 AM
Well, as I said in the other thread,

I hear people hem and haw all the time and say 'well not really dead, just broken' or whatever, but 'completely'? Really? C'mon! How does man continue to communicate and have a relationship with God and accomplish His will then? Seems to me, if man were dead as a doornail, this would be impossible.

Butch5
Sep 16th 2009, 12:21 AM
Well, as I said in the other thread,

I hear people hem and haw all the time and say 'well not really dead, just broken' or whatever, but 'completely'? Really? C'mon! How does man continue to communicate and have a relationship with God and accomplish His will then? Seems to me, if man were dead as a doornail, this would be impossible.

I agree 100%. I think dead in the Bible has more definitions than any other word. lol

Moxie
Sep 16th 2009, 01:42 AM
That man would die a physical death and be returned to the ground. This was actually a gracious provision. God could have left us to live forever in this sinful world until the 2nd coming of Christ. This death is also a spiritual death. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior do we become alive in the Spirit, otherwise we would remain dead. I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for but it's the only one I have. :)

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 02:11 AM
I agree 100%. I think dead in the Bible has more definitions than any other word. lolYes, but I'm only asking about one.
the day you eat....you shall surely die

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 02:15 AM
This death is also a spiritual death. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior do we become alive in the Spirit, otherwise we would remain dead. I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for but it's the only one I have. :)So Adam had the Spirit (alive) and when he sinned the Spirit was no longer in him (dead) in a permanent indwelling? Is that what you mean?

Butch5
Sep 16th 2009, 02:55 AM
Yes, but I'm only asking about one.
the day you eat....you shall surely die

I know I was kidding with you. I agree with you, it means physically dead.

Vhayes
Sep 16th 2009, 02:57 AM
This is the way i had it explained to me years ago by a Greek scholar. He said the Greek would say it this way:
Genesis 2
16 - The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 - but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying you will surely die."



Adam DID die the day he ate - he died spiritually and BECAUSE he died spiritually, he eventually died physically.


Hope that helps a bit.
V

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 03:06 AM
Vhayes, that doesn't tell me what 'died spiritually' means.
What you were told is correct. The Hebrew for 'shall surely die' is die! die! Translated is 'dying die!' or to understand, 'dying you shall die'. Hebrew scholars say it and translations actually say it.

However, he died eventually because he sinned and was separated from the tree of life, not because he died spiritually. The text says nothing of the sort. If it is true he died spiritually, it is also because he sinned. None of this addresses what spiritual death means, but we may be making progress.

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 03:07 AM
I know I was kidding with you. I agree with you, it means physically dead.I thought so, but wasn't sure.

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 03:13 AM
This is the way i had it explained to me years ago by a Greek scholar. He said the Greek would say it this way:
Genesis 2
16 - The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 - but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying you will surely die."
VBTW; you can find the same here
1Ki 2:37 For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

1Ki 2:42 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.
Notice he did not die the day he passed over. His death became certain that day. Same with Adam -physically.

Vhayes
Sep 16th 2009, 03:17 AM
It was the "beginning" of death - a done deal - a sealed and delivered sentence.

But I still think Adam died spiritually - otherwise why would Jesus tell us that we must be "born again" of the Spirit?

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 03:27 AM
What does that mean? What was the difference in Adam -before and after- he sinned?

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 03:33 AM
I know I was kidding with you. I agree with you, it means physically dead.I believe in 'spiritual death' per say, I just don't believe we are born in it. I believe it is a process, just as physical death is a process. We can see the progression in Romans 1.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This makes no sense if man is born dead. Ephesians 2 also describes a result of sin -dead, not a cause of sin -dead. It doesn't say born, but rather shows a life of sin after the spirit and god of this world and therefore dead.

So what I would say spiritual death is -just to use the term, is someone that has rejected God to the point of being given over to a reprobate mind. No one is born that way, as we can clearly see and know that no scripture says otherwise. You can't be born dead, then hold truth, be darkened, know God, and reject these things.

So what else could spiritually dead mean? No indwelling Spirit?

Vhayes
Sep 16th 2009, 03:34 AM
I don't know, so why don't you tell me?

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 03:37 AM
It was the "beginning" of death - a done deal - a sealed and delivered sentence. I agree. I know one translation says 'as good as dead' ....I don't remember which one.

otrclassic
Sep 16th 2009, 03:37 AM
What does that mean? What was the difference in Adam -before and after- he sinned?
Before Adam sinned He was almost perfect, indeed maybe even perfect. There was no death after there was much death. If we were to give the doctrine a name it would be total depravity, hope this helps



Question: "Total Depravity - is it Biblical?"

Answer: Total Depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “Total Inability”, “Righteous Incapability”, “Radical Corruption” or even “Moral Inability”. Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “Total Depravity” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of Total Depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or as Jesus says “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) and the thoughts of his heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the Gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so.” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul really summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach their children to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.

Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example we see that: 1—no one is without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, 6—and above all they have no fear of God. So when one considers even these few verses mentioned above it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “There is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. It does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the Law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lay behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His Glory even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”

Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the Gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the Gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life in a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13).

However even when properly understood, many people will rebel or reject the doctrine of total depravity, but that fact should not surprise us since the world generally thinks of man as being basically good. Therefore the idea that man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious, psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart and the root cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but that by nature man has a wicked and selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of salvation and recognize that God’s sovereign grace is man’s only hope. While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man’s self righteousness and any misconceptions about man’s ability to be saved through his own free will, it leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew 19:25-26: “Then who can be saved?” Of course the answer remains the same: “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

As the first of the five doctrines of what is called “Calvinism,” the doctrine of total depravity correctly focuses man’s attention on the rest of these “doctrines of grace” which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of sinners.

Source (http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html)

Vhayes
Sep 16th 2009, 03:38 AM
Ephesians 2
1 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Why would Jesus tell us we must be "born again" if we are already "alive"?

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 03:46 AM
Before Adam sinned He was almost perfect, indeed maybe even perfect. There was no death after there was much death. If we were to give the doctrine a name it would be total depravity, hope this helps



Source (http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html)Thanks but I'm not discussing isms, just scripture.

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 03:48 AM
Ephesians 2
1 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Why would Jesus tell us we must be "born again" if we are already "alive"?I didn't say we are alive after we sin and need a savior.

DaveS
Sep 16th 2009, 03:53 AM
I believe in 'spiritual death' per say, I just don't believe we are born in it. I believe it is a process, just as physical death is a process. We can see the progression in Romans 1.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This makes no sense if man is born dead. Ephesians 2 also describes a result of sin -dead, not a cause of sin -dead. It doesn't say born, but rather shows a life of sin after the spirit and god of this world and therefore dead.

So what I would say spiritual death is -just to use the term, is someone that has rejected God to the point of being given over to a reprobate mind. No one is born that way, as we can clearly see and know that no scripture says otherwise. You can't be born dead, then hold truth, be darkened, know God, and reject these things.

So what else could spiritually dead mean? No indwelling Spirit?

Hi Sirus. I agree that we are not born spiritually dead. But I don't see it as a process, but rather, as happening in a moment in time.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Call it the age of accountability or whatever term we may be more comfortable with, it seems to me that Paul is describing something instantaneous occuring at a certain moment of cognition in his life.

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 04:07 AM
Hi Sirus. I agree that we are not born spiritually dead. But I don't see it as a process, but rather, as happening in a moment in time.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Call it the age of accountability or whatever term we may be more comfortable with, it seems to me that Paul is describing something instantaneous occuring at a certain moment of cognition in his life.That's a possible interpretation of that passage. I believe it is Paul under grace (alive) and not under the law, living after the flesh and not after the Spirit as a believer. Just as His audience.....
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
.....and he is telling them the revelation he received of the NT that is "the mystery of Christ -the gospel -godliness -"in Christ"". That they don't have to continue to live as they did before being born again, because they are dead. I know that's an unusual interpretation, but.....

I do see your point. So combined with what I said, would Rom 1:28 fit 'the moment' of spiritual death?

otrclassic
Sep 16th 2009, 04:24 AM
Thanks but I'm not discussing isms, just scripture.
It is completely Scripture

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 04:30 AM
Well, I don't believe a twisted word of it, so I must have another Spirit than that of Christ the word in me :kiss:
I also said -no isms- in the OP. The article says and is 'Calvinism'. Not allowed.

DaveS
Sep 16th 2009, 04:31 AM
That's a possible interpretation of that passage. I believe it is Paul under grace (alive) and not under the law, living after the flesh and not after the Spirit as a believer. Just as His audience.....
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
.....and he is telling them the revelation he received of the NT that is "the mystery of Christ -the gospel -godliness". That they don't have to continue to live as they did before being born again, because they are dead. I know that's an unusual interpretation, but.....

I do see your point. So combined with what I said, would Rom 1:28 fit 'the moment' of spiritual death?I don't see Romans 1 as describing an individual experience necessarily, but "all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men". Iow, I think it describes God's dealing with the human race as a whole, culminating in the tower of Babel when they were finally scattered over the face of the whole earth in utter confusion. It's at that point that God "gives up" on the nations at large and calls out Abraham. From then on the rest of the world is on the outside looking in. That is, until the Lord reveals the mystery to Paul.

I've heard folks with a similar take to what you described on Romans 7 before and I certainly don't discount it. I guess I come down more on the "age of accountability" side because Paul is also talking about a time (or at least a condition under which) he "had not known sin", specifically, he "had not known lust" (vs.7). I have trouble reconciling that with anyone other than a child.

Moxie
Sep 16th 2009, 04:36 AM
So Adam had the Spirit (alive) and when he sinned the Spirit was no longer in him (dead) in a permanent indwelling? Is that what you mean?


Adam walked with God he was free of sin; sin had not yet entered the world. Once Adam disobeyed God, sin entered the world. Adam now had sin in him. Until we receive Jesus as our Savior our Spirit is dead to trespasses and sins. Our Spirit exists but it is apart (dead) from God.

I'm not sure how the issue of faith worked in Adam's life. Having actually walked with God and having been free of sin at one point in his life, I believe it would be safe to say that his particular experience was very unique. I do know that later in Genesis it talks about how man started to call on the name of the Lord. I have to wonder if that meant that Adam had turned his back on God and God who has always been faithful worked to bring Adam back and he returned. I don't think we have enough information to draw specific conclusions.

otrclassic
Sep 16th 2009, 04:37 AM
Well, I don't believe a twisted word of it, so I must have another Spirit than that of Christ the word in me :kiss:
I also said -no isms- in the OP. The article says and is 'Calvinism'. Not allowed.
Okay, Scriptures aren't allowed in he thread. Thanks, by the way Calvinism is Scripture as was debated when I was here as historyb meaning there is nothing in the reformed system that is not Scriptural

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 04:44 AM
Adam walked with God he was free of sin; sin had not yet entered the world. Once Adam disobeyed God, sin entered the world. Adam now had sin in him. Until we receive Jesus as our Savior our Spirit is dead to trespasses and sins. Our Spirit exists but it is apart (dead) from God.

I'm not sure how the issue of faith worked in Adam's life. Having actually walked with God and having been free of sin at one point in his life, I believe it would be safe to say that his particular experience was very unique. I do know that later in Genesis it talks about how man started to call on the name of the Lord. I have to wonder if that meant that Adam had turned his back on God and God who has always been faithful worked to bring Adam back and he returned. I don't think we have enough information to draw specific conclusions.Sin is not a thing to be in anything.
I understand you don't want to say either way. The text doesn't tell us either way. That is my point. Spiritual death 'the day' is an assumption based on theological presupposition and English translation, not Hebrew and holistic interpretation.

I disagree Adam turned his back on God. Cain and Abel learned sacrifice from someone and Abel's was by faith. It's possible this was w/o Adam I guess because they did talk to God Himself, but the point is that man became progressively sinful from Adam, not that Adam rejected his Father. Also, if Cain and Abel learned sacrifice from God w/o Adam, and talked to God Himself, so much for spiritual death!

Steven3
Sep 16th 2009, 05:20 AM
I thought in Hebrew the structure:

doing you shall do = you shall definitely do.
__ing you shall _ = you shall definitely __.

Doesn't mean that it happens in that moment does it?
s

Sirus
Sep 16th 2009, 05:22 AM
I thought in Hebrew the structure:

doing you shall do = you shall definitely do.
__ing you shall _ = you shall definitely __.

Doesn't mean that it happens in that moment does it?
s
Adam, you are dying -mortal/natural and need the tree of life, if you eat that tree, you will no longer have the tree of life and death will be certain!
dying you will die

Sirus
Sep 17th 2009, 01:52 AM
Okay, Scriptures aren't allowed in he thread.Why do you say this after I said

Thanks but I'm not discussing isms, just scripture.
You are more than welcome to post scripture that describes spiritual death and shows it applies to birth. Do you have any?

otrclassic
Sep 17th 2009, 01:55 AM
You would just try to shot me down. Genesis describes it well when Adam ate of the fruit He truly died not just physically but spiritually if he hadn't Christ death was in vain. We all are born completely lost utterly headed to Hell until Christ calls us

Sirus
Sep 17th 2009, 02:05 AM
Why do we have to be dead spiritually to receive new bodies and live forever?
Did Jesus die spiritually?
If we are born completely lost why does Romans 1 say we hold truth, know God, are darkened, become vain, become fools? Scripture says we go astray when we are born. Astray from what? Why does it say we are made upright, fearfully and wonderfully made, and our soul knows right well? It's not hard to shoot you down. That's easy, and is not my goal. I would like to see
"scripture that describes spiritual death and shows it applies to birth"
Can you or can you not produce any?

Walstib
Sep 17th 2009, 02:05 AM
No one has to keep replying to each other if agreement is not being sought.

Just a reminder. :)

Usually makes for better conversation that way.

Lets leave the past threads and accusations behind as we keep this thread open.

Focus. :saint:

Sirus
Sep 17th 2009, 02:10 AM
Excuse me? :bounce:

Walstib
Sep 17th 2009, 02:23 AM
I've often accused myself of being too cryptic. ;)

I'm saying if any party involved in threads here, this one in particular, is not really in the conversation to mutually edify but to solely defend a position. Well that does not usually lead in a profitable direction in my experience.

Helping each other keep our cool and not get defensive personally leads to less personal attacks.

Leaving past inappropriate personal comments out of future conversations is difficult but I believe a noble effort.

So rather than me just close this thread, I was hoping a reminder could help you keep the thread focused on topic without the past stuff to get in the way. :)

Sirus
Sep 17th 2009, 02:36 AM
Right. There's none of that here, and no reason to close the thread, which is why I asked. Sure you aren't confused or reading too much into something? Things were going rather smoothly for such an heated topic. I did what I could to promote that in the OP and it seemed to be working fine to me.

otrclassic
Sep 17th 2009, 02:36 AM
Why do we have to be dead spiritually to receive new bodies and live forever?
Did Jesus die spiritually?
If we are born completely lost why does Romans 1 say we hold truth, know God, are darkened, become vain, become fools? Scripture says we go astray when we are born. Astray from what? Why does it say we are made upright, fearfully and wonderfully made, and our soul knows right well? It's not hard to shoot you down. That's easy, and is not my goal. I would like to see
"scripture that describes spiritual death and shows it applies to birth"
Can you or can you not produce any?
My views are known and you can google total depravity if you want. Mankind is born in sin and it is plain any other view imo is heresy. Now I am done with this thread

Sirus
Sep 17th 2009, 02:42 AM
See, now there you went and had to use that word! heresy

cya