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tt1106
Sep 20th 2009, 04:21 PM
So here's my dilemma?
If God created man a little lower than the Angels, why would he create Angelic beings, with free choice, knowing that they would disobey, with no propitiation for salvation. Unlike man, whom he created, but provided a mechanism to achieve Salvation.
Why would God offer Salvation to fallen man, but not to fallen Angels?

Thanks


tt1106

HisLeast
Sep 20th 2009, 05:05 PM
I guess my first question would be, why its assumed God created man "lower" than angels.

-SEEKING-
Sep 20th 2009, 06:14 PM
To answer the OP. I'm not sure if they do or don't.

To answer HisLeast
Hebrews 2:5-8 "Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? 7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

Jeffinator
Sep 20th 2009, 06:27 PM
So here's my dilemma?
If God created man a little lower than the Angels, why would he create Angelic beings, with free choice, knowing that they would disobey, with no propitiation for salvation. Unlike man, whom he created, but provided a mechanism to achieve Salvation.
Why would God offer Salvation to fallen man, but not to fallen Angels?

Thanks


tt1106

Well a third of them chose to follow Lucifer, so I do think they have free will. Also, they live in a different realm than we do and get to see God every day. When they stood there and chose between Lucifer and God, that was their judgment day I think. The same way here on earth we choose to either accept Jesus's salvation or not.

Vhayes
Sep 20th 2009, 06:35 PM
So here's my dilemma?
If God created man a little lower than the Angels, why would he create Angelic beings, with free choice, knowing that they would disobey, with no propitiation for salvation. Unlike man, whom he created, but provided a mechanism to achieve Salvation.
Why would God offer Salvation to fallen man, but not to fallen Angels?

Thanks


tt1106
I thought they had made their choice regarding who they would serve in eternity past when they rebelled.

markedward
Sep 20th 2009, 06:40 PM
Since we're in Bible Chat here, should we not be using Scripture to support our claims?

tt1106
Sep 20th 2009, 06:42 PM
Yes Please. (15 characters)

blessedmommyuv3
Sep 20th 2009, 06:49 PM
Man created a little lower than the angels:

Psalms 8:
3 When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.



In Christ,
Jen

TrustingFollower
Sep 20th 2009, 09:13 PM
Well a third of them chose to follow Lucifer, so I do think they have free will. Also, they live in a different realm than we do and get to see God every day. When they stood there and chose between Lucifer and God, that was their judgment day I think. The same way here on earth we choose to either accept Jesus's salvation or not.
From what it says in Jude, those angels will be judged when Satan is judged.

Jude 1

6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

I think that those angels that choose to follow Satan have already been sealed as to their fate the same was Satan has been sealed for the lake of fire.

tt1106
Sep 20th 2009, 11:22 PM
Let me lay this out and then you can see where I'm coming from.
Man was not perfect in the Garden of Eden. Man must have had the ability to choose to sin, and Man chose it. Man was in the presence of the Lord in the Garden.
Man, after death, is perfected and kept perfect in the presence of the Lord.
So God will keep us perfected, without the ability to choose to sin.
Angels, were in the presence of the Lord, They chose evil and were cast out.
There are still angels in Heaven, are they perfected? As in without the ability to choose to sin. Do Angels still fall? Does it say in the Bible that Angels don't fall?

TrustingFollower
Sep 20th 2009, 11:35 PM
Let me lay this out and then you can see where I'm coming from.
Man was not perfect in the Garden of Eden. Man must have had the ability to choose to sin, and Man chose it. Man was in the presence of the Lord in the Garden.
Man, after death, is perfected and kept perfect in the presence of the Lord.
So God will keep us perfected, without the ability to choose to sin.
Angels, were in the presence of the Lord, They chose evil and were cast out.
There are still angels in Heaven, are they perfected? As in without the ability to choose to sin. Do Angels still fall? Does it say in the Bible that Angels don't fall?
Trying to compare angel to man is like comparing pizza to apple pie. We were each created different for God's purpose.

Man was created for trouble.

Job 5

7 For man is born for trouble, As sparks fly upward.

We were made to need a savior, whereas I have not found anything in the bible that say angels were.

Brother Mark
Sep 21st 2009, 12:02 AM
So here's my dilemma?
If God created man a little lower than the Angels, why would he create Angelic beings, with free choice, knowing that they would disobey, with no propitiation for salvation. Unlike man, whom he created, but provided a mechanism to achieve Salvation.
Why would God offer Salvation to fallen man, but not to fallen Angels?

Thanks


tt1106

I don't know the full answer. But a partial answer is this... angels are meant to be servants. If all God wanted was servants, he would have made more angels. But Adam, from the beginning was designed to eat of the Tree of Life. Just as Eve was the first life made from life, so we too were designed with the idea of sharing God's uncreated life. Our life is made from Life. This is the purpose of human beings. The angels look and wonder at salvation. When Adam sinned, God's plan and purpose for Adam and mankind didn't change. It was still to sanctify him, share his life with him, and for the two to become one in a marriage relationship. That purpose far exceeds the purpose God had for angels, IMO.

tt1106
Sep 21st 2009, 12:53 AM
Thank You. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why God would create servants with free will?

nzyr
Sep 21st 2009, 01:11 AM
I believe angels have free will. They (the holy angels) always choose what is good. The holy angels always do God's will.

Desperaux
Sep 21st 2009, 01:25 AM
I believe angels have free will. They (the holy angels) always choose what is good. The holy angels always do God's will.

Right! Who wouldn't, being in His glorious presence continuously?

God created us, however, for relationship, as His precious children, so He could extend His great love and mercy as well as favour, as a Dad. God is all about family!

Hebrews 2:10-12
10 God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation. 11 So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters. 12 For he said to God,
“I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters.
I will praise you among your assembled people.”

markdrums
Sep 21st 2009, 01:28 AM
WOW! Nice question my brotha'!

Here's how I see it.
God created the angels with FULL knowledge of his majesty, power & glory. He gave them free will, as well as the complete understanding of who he is. It was their choice to rebel or not.

So, creating "MAN"... he gave US free will too... however; being "lower in status" to the angels, & most likely with less knowledge than they had. Because we were created as physical, coporial beings, reproductive beings, that put limits on our comprehension of GOD.... an INFINITE creator.

I think the reason WE have the offering of Salvation is because we DO have free will, with LESS true knowledge of God, whereas the angles HAD "full understanding" & knowledge.
They KNEW without a doubt that GOD created THEM, & HE IS greater than ALL.

But, we little humans with our finite minds, don't fully comprehend the true greatness of our God.
Yet, those of us who CHOOSE to give HIM the glory, worhsip HIM... doing our best to be obedient & faithful to HIM.....?
(is it becoming clearer?)
;)

Here's the thing: The ANGELS already knew God's FULLNESS & GLORY.
(We STILL don't.) Those angels CHOSE to rebel against him; knowing they were wrong, and had ZERO business doing so.

I think that's why WE have the offering of Salvation, while they don't.
We may have been created lower than the angels, but because of our faith & obedience based on our limited understanding of him, THAT is why we'll be put ABOVE the angels when all is said & done.

:)

nzyr
Sep 21st 2009, 01:38 AM
WOW! Nice question my brotha'!

Here's how I see it.
God created the angels with FULL knowledge of his majesty, power & glory. He gave them free will, as well as the complete understanding of who he is. It was their choice to rebel or not.

So, creating "MAN"... he gave US free will too... however; being "lower in status" to the angels, & most likely with less knowledge than they had. Because we were created as physical, coporial beings, reproductive beings, that put limits on our comprehension of GOD.... an INFINITE creator.

I think the reason WE have the offering of Salvation is because we DO have free will, with LESS true knowledge of GID, whereas the angles HAD THAT "full understanding" & knowledge of God.
They KNEW withour a doubt the GOD created THEM, & he IS greater than all.

But, we little humans with or finite minds, don't fully comprehend the true greatness of our God. Yet, those of us who CHOOSE to give HIM the glory, worhsip HIM... doing our best to be obedient & faithful to HIM.....?
(is it becoming clearer?)
;)

Here's the thing: The ANGELS already knew God's FULLNESS & GLORY.
(We STILL don't.) Those angels CHOSE to rebel against him; knowing full well that they were wrong, and had ZERO business doing so.

I think that's why WE have the offering of Salvation, while they don't.
We were created LOWER than the angels, but because of our faith & obedience based on our limited understanding of him, THAT is why we'll be put ABOVE the angels.

:)Some scholars believe the demons weren't tempted to sin as Adam and Eve were. They sinned willfully on their own. And they totally rejected God. So God has rejected them.

Brother Mark
Sep 21st 2009, 01:38 AM
Thank You. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why God would create servants with free will?

Shoot. There's lots of things about God I don't understand. Let me ask you this question. Why would he create a servant that didn't have free will? I think both of those (yours and mine) questions are interesting.

Personally, I think satan started out as an angel.

TrustingFollower
Sep 21st 2009, 03:29 AM
Shoot. There's lots of things about God I don't understand. Let me ask you this question. Why would he create a servant that didn't have free will? I think both of those (yours and mine) questions are interesting.

Personally, I think satan started out as an angel.
I agree with you whole heartedly, there are many things I do not understand about God either.

I also think Satan must has been some kind of angelic being. Jesus tells us He was watching when Satan fell from heaven.

Luke 10

18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Revelation 12

7 ¶And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Soupy
Sep 21st 2009, 11:03 AM
I would think in similar lines to 'Markdrums' post ...

Mankind is only able to walk / work in faith regarding heavenly things and God, but the angels have first-hand knowledge so, for them to rebel is a different and can not be compared, an apples / oranges thing I guess.

:hmm:

LaurieF
Sep 21st 2009, 12:40 PM
I think that's why WE have the offering of Salvation, while they don't.
We may have been created lower than the angels, but because of our faith & obedience based on our limited understanding of him, THAT is why we'll be put ABOVE the angels when all is said & done.

:)


I understand it as we will be above the angels Not because of our faith and obedience but because we have the spirit of Christ in us and they can't.

markdrums
Sep 21st 2009, 12:54 PM
I understand it as we will be above the angels Not because of our faith and obedience but because we have the spirit of Christ in us and they can't.

Hmmmm.
Nice reply! :)

Most likely it's a combination of of all those things.
We may not fully understand it now.... but there will come a day that we do. ;)

Thanks for the additional input!!! I'm glad you shared your thoughts on that!

Steve M
Sep 21st 2009, 03:33 PM
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

(I didn't before he asked the question, no)

I don't know how, why, or even for what (Beyond some speculation), but Paul seems fairly sure of this.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 21st 2009, 03:58 PM
Do Angels have free will?


For satan to drag down a third of heavens angels for sinning against GOD, and sin being a choice I would have to say, Yes!!!

"If God created man a little lower than the Angels, why would he create Angelic beings, with free choice, knowing that they would disobey, with no propitiation for salvation."

Because they didn't know GOD had prepared a place for them called Hell.

"Unlike man, whom he created, but provided a mechanism to achieve Salvation. Why would God offer Salvation to fallen man, but not to fallen Angels?"

My question is rather did the angels in heaven before they fell knew there would be salvation for fallen man and not fallen angels?

I would have to say, No!

Had they known they probably would not have rebeled against GOD, or satan decieved them all.

Jeffinator
Sep 21st 2009, 04:29 PM
From what it says in Jude, those angels will be judged when Satan is judged.

Jude 1

6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

I think that those angels that choose to follow Satan have already been sealed as to their fate the same was Satan has been sealed for the lake of fire.

Kind of what I was getting at, but thanks for the quote. I was not aware of when the judgment was..:D

tt1106
Sep 21st 2009, 05:17 PM
Do Angels have free will?


For satan to drag down a third of heavens angels for sinning against GOD, and sin being a choice I would have to say, Yes!!!

"If God created man a little lower than the Angels, why would he create Angelic beings, with free choice, knowing that they would disobey, with no propitiation for salvation."

Because they didn't know GOD had prepared a place for them called Hell.

"Unlike man, whom he created, but provided a mechanism to achieve Salvation. Why would God offer Salvation to fallen man, but not to fallen Angels?"

My question is rather did the angels in heaven before they fell knew there would be salvation for fallen man and not fallen angels?

I would have to say, No!

Had they known they probably would not have rebeled against GOD, or satan decieved them all.


Thanks for the responses.

That brings up another question? Why did God prepare a place form them called Hell (I get that he had foreknowledge) and why aren't they there now?
Why was Satan allowed to roam the Earth and why does God tolerate Satan in his presence, after he rebelled?

nzyr
Sep 21st 2009, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the responses.

That brings up another question? Why did God prepare a place for them called Hell (I get that he had foreknowledge) and why aren't they there now?I don't believe He prepared it for them before they sinned.

Why was Satan allowed to roam the Earth and why does God tolerate Satan in his presence, after he rebelled?I don't think the bible really answers this. We can only speculate.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 21st 2009, 05:35 PM
Thanks for the responses.

That brings up another question? Why did God prepare a place form them called Hell (I get that he had foreknowledge) and why aren't they there now?
Why was Satan allowed to roam the Earth and why does God tolerate Satan in his presence, after he rebelled?


Hence the thread Accuser of the brethren.

tt1106
Sep 21st 2009, 05:39 PM
Thanks again for the responses.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 21st 2009, 05:45 PM
I don't believe He prepared it for them before they sinned.
I don't think the bible really answers this. We can only speculate.


I do believe GOD knows all things, even the future.

Brother Mark
Sep 21st 2009, 06:23 PM
Thanks for the responses.

That brings up another question? Why did God prepare a place form them called Hell (I get that he had foreknowledge) and why aren't they there now?
Why was Satan allowed to roam the Earth and why does God tolerate Satan in his presence, after he rebelled?

He uses Satan as a rod of correction (1 Cor. 5) and as a means of testing (Gen. 3 and Job).

nzyr
Sep 21st 2009, 10:01 PM
I do believe GOD knows all things, even the future.I do too. But I don't think he made hell before there was sin in His creation.

tt1106
Sep 21st 2009, 10:04 PM
I do too. But I don't think he made hell before there was sin in His creation.


Why wouldn't he? If he has foreknowledge and knows that Lucifer will betray him, why wouldn't he?

timmyb
Sep 21st 2009, 10:11 PM
But I am of the persuasion that God's foreknowledge doesn't mean he orchestrated the event. Just because you know something doesn't mean you are the catalyst to make it happen. God didn't make Lucifer's mind up for him nor does God make up our minds for us.

A third of the angels fell with Lucifer... obviously a choice to me.

Lucifer said all of the things about exalting himself above God to himself. I find that hard to believe that God did that to him and gave to Lucifer those desires...

The Mighty Sword
Sep 21st 2009, 10:38 PM
I do too. But I don't think he made hell before there was sin in His creation.


(In a whispering voice start a thread )

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 21st 2009, 10:56 PM
He uses Satan as a rod of correction (1 Cor. 5) and as a means of testing (Gen. 3 and Job).


correct.. good post.. he is a 'tool'...

Steven3
Sep 21st 2009, 11:53 PM
So here's my dilemma?
If God created man a little lower than the Angels, why would he create Angelic beings, with free choice, knowing that they would disobey, with no propitiation for salvation. Unlike man, whom he created, but provided a mechanism to achieve Salvation.
Why would God offer Salvation to fallen man, but not to fallen Angels?

Thanks


tt1106While the issue of why God would provide a Sacrifice/Mediator for men who sinned, but not angels that sinned is indeed a thorny theological paradox that people have been wrestling with since the early church fathers.

However, maybe the base assumption of "angelic freewill" is incorrect. Note that the word "all" is present in every Greek manuscript of Hebrews:

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

This appears to be a straight black-and-white unambiguous, non-symbolic, non-figurative statement, so the idea that some angels are not "ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation" would require an equally clear black-and-white, unambiguous, non-symbolic, non-figurative verse to contradict it (e.g. not any verse plucked out of context from a prophetic, allegorical or symbolic chapter).

S

timmyb
Sep 22nd 2009, 12:29 AM
My only conclusion is that the angels committed the unpardonable sin.

Brother Mark
Sep 22nd 2009, 05:12 AM
Let's keep in mind that we don't see where Angel's have a physical, made of dust body, that can die while their spirit lives on.

Also, keep in mind the very difference in purpose for angels and humanity. Humanity was created to be the bride of Christ. Angels were not created for such a purpose. Humanity was made in the image of God. Such is not said of angels. Humanity is meant to have the very image and character of Jesus Christ imprinted in us. It is not said to be true of angels.

Sin always leads to death, but if all you are is a spirit being, what part of you can be redeemed? What is there of you that can die? Angels have heavenly bodies not bodies made like ours. Perhaps there is something there to be explored.

Finally, keep in mind Satan serves a purpose to God. God uses him, as stated above, as a "tool". He is used to prune the people of God and to chastise them. When his purpose is over, God will deal with him.

tt1106
Sep 22nd 2009, 11:04 AM
My only conclusion is that the angels committed the unpardonable sin.

I like how you think!

tt1106
Sep 22nd 2009, 11:06 AM
Let's keep in mind that we don't see where Angel's have a physical, made of dust body, that can die while their spirit lives on.

Also, keep in mind the very difference in purpose for angels and humanity. Humanity was created to be the bride of Christ. Angels were not created for such a purpose. Humanity was made in the image of God. Such is not said of angels. Humanity is meant to have the very image and character of Jesus Christ imprinted in us. It is not said to be true of angels.

Sin always leads to death, but if all you are is a spirit being, what part of you can be redeemed? What is there of you that can die? Angels have heavenly bodies not bodies made like ours. Perhaps there is something there to be explored.

Finally, keep in mind Satan serves a purpose to God. God uses him, as stated above, as a "tool". He is used to prune the people of God and to chastise them. When his purpose is over, God will deal with him.

Thank You. Great thoughts.

nzyr
Sep 22nd 2009, 09:32 PM
correct.. good post.. he is a 'tool'...He isn't a tool. God sometimes does allow Satan to buffet people including Christians. But God did not create Satan evil. He became evil on his own.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:12-17)

tt1106
Sep 22nd 2009, 11:21 PM
He isn't a tool. God sometimes does allow Satan to buffet people including Christians. But God did not create Satan evil. He became evil on his own.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:12-17)

And yet Satan is not a man.

TrustingFollower
Sep 22nd 2009, 11:43 PM
I do believe GOD knows all things, even the future.
From what Solomon tells us, God is looking back on everything that is going on right now for us. Read verse 15.

Ecclesiastes 3

14 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him.
15 That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by.

TrustingFollower
Sep 22nd 2009, 11:45 PM
I do too. But I don't think he made hell before there was sin in His creation.
God made man on the 6th day and rested on the seventh. Hell would have to already been made for God to rest.

TrustingFollower
Sep 22nd 2009, 11:53 PM
keep in mind Satan serves a purpose to God. God uses him, as stated above, as a "tool"..
God did have a definite purpose for having Satan.

Revelation 12

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, ¶"Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

From this it says because the accuser was thrown down then salvation, and power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ could come to us.

Brother Mark
Sep 23rd 2009, 12:17 AM
God did have a definite purpose for having Satan.

He serves a purpose in the here and now too. Not just later.

Isa 54:14-17
14 "In righteousness you will be established;
You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear;
And from terror, for it will not come near you.
15 "If anyone fiercely assails you it will not be from Me.
Whoever assails you will fall because of you.
16 "Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals
And brings out a weapon for its work;
And I have created the destroyer to ruin.
17 "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper;
And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
And their vindication is from Me," declares the Lord.
NASU

God created Satan to ruin and as a weapon. But he didn't form it for those that walk in righteousness. When we are established in righteousness, then no weapon formed against us will prosper. But for those that refuse to walk in righteousness, the destroyer is meant to ruin.

So what was the weapon formed to destroy?

1 Cor 5:1-5

5 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
NASU

The flesh. Let a believer go into sin and not repent, then watch God put the enemy on him. There are more examples in both testaments of God doing the same thing.

Steven3
Sep 23rd 2009, 03:16 AM
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

(I didn't before he asked the question, no)

I don't know how, why, or even for what (Beyond some speculation), but Paul seems fairly sure of this. No I didn't know either!:o Especially seeing as it contradicts Heb 1:14 about "all" angels. But presumably the Corinthians did know this...

Worth noting however that all 4x "angels" verses in 1Co are a bit odd. Which suggest they may be interrelated:



1Co 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. ... How exactly had Paul become a spectacle to angels? (seeing as they're supposed to observe everything anyway).
6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! Really? How exactly did they know that we are to judge angels? (when the only OT evidence for angels making mistakes is in the mouth of one of Job's wrongly-thinking friends and even he didn't claim it was his job to judge them).
1Co 11:10 That is why a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels..... Why exactly should a Corinthian prophetess cover her head "because of the angels"? (there are records of Jewish charismatic women prophesying in the 1stC, but no mention of headcoverings or lack of).
1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. Since when do angels not speak human languages? (apart from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other non-biblical sources) And what's it got to do with Corinth anyway?

We also know from Colossians that "the religion of angels" (not "worship of angels", KJV mistake - the term means rabbinic speculation about angels not actual bowing down to them) was a problem Paul warned against. Impossible to say, but one could guess that there was a bit of "religion of angels" going on at Corinth, presumably from Jewish influence, since the pagan Greeks didn't really have a concept of angels to begin with.



* I've heard it said that 1Co6:3 can mean "don't you say / don't you think that".... and Paul isn't actually confirming it, but personally I can't see that's a likely reading here.
* The other possibility is that this verb "judge" can mean "rule", which is also true in some contexts, but in this context, when they are being asked to judge an erroring brother, the context rules that out.

nzyr
Sep 24th 2009, 01:33 AM
God created Satan to ruin and as a weapon. The bible does not teach this. It sounds like you are trying to blame God for the evil that exists in the world.


The bible does teach this though:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

nzyr
Sep 24th 2009, 01:37 AM
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

(I didn't before he asked the question, no)

I don't know how, why, or even for what (Beyond some speculation), but Paul seems fairly sure of this.Some theologians believe this means former angels, i.e. demons.

Steven3
Sep 24th 2009, 02:36 AM
Some theologians believe this means former angels, i.e. demons.

Do you have any references for that? Sounds a bit off to me since in the OT demons are pagan gods ("which exist not" Greek Isaiah), and in contemporary 1stC Jewish material (Solomonic legends, Dead Sea Scrolls 'Book of the Giants' and other myths) demons are several times identified as the offspring of fallen angels with women, not once - as far as I know - as the actual angels. And NT fails to identify origin of demons at all.

Also Christ says "the devil and his angels" - which while it applies in that context in Matthew to the Last Day, and judgement to the Pharisees as the "children of your father the devil", it does reflect Jewish ideas in angels vs demons as distinct categories.

Warrior4God
Sep 25th 2009, 01:24 PM
The angels that rebelled and became demons had free will. Otherwise, God would have created them as evil. Does that sound like something God would do? Same thing for Lucifer.

tt1106
Sep 25th 2009, 08:08 PM
The angels that rebelled and became demons had free will. Otherwise, God would have created them as evil. Does that sound like something God would do? Same thing for Lucifer.

Depends on how you look at it I guess? Did God create the Angels with the ability to choose to rebel? If he did, then he created the Angels, knowing they would rebel. Since he knew they would rebel prior to creating them, then creating them, knowing they would rebel, would have been his will. So their rebellion wasn't really contrary to his will? Was it? Since he created them, knowing they would rebel and if his will were different, the simplest thing to achieve his will would have been to not create them.

Also, If Satan had the ability to choose to disobey, why did he obey the restrictions God placed upon him when testing Job? Weird that he could choose ot rebel and be cast out of heaven but was subject to God's commands afterwards.
Makes my head hurt.

I guess it will be made clear someday.

TrustingFollower
Sep 26th 2009, 03:24 PM
He serves a purpose in the here and now too. Not just later.

Isa 54:14-17
14 "In righteousness you will be established;
You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear;
And from terror, for it will not come near you.
15 "If anyone fiercely assails you it will not be from Me.
Whoever assails you will fall because of you.
16 "Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals
And brings out a weapon for its work;
And I have created the destroyer to ruin.
17 "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper;
And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
And their vindication is from Me," declares the Lord.
NASU

God created Satan to ruin and as a weapon. But he didn't form it for those that walk in righteousness. When we are established in righteousness, then no weapon formed against us will prosper. But for those that refuse to walk in righteousness, the destroyer is meant to ruin.

So what was the weapon formed to destroy?

1 Cor 5:1-5

5 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
NASU

The flesh. Let a believer go into sin and not repent, then watch God put the enemy on him. There are more examples in both testaments of God doing the same thing.
The thing about the verses from Revelation is that this is something that happened before even man was made. Jesus told the 70 when they returned that he was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Luke 10

18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Warrior4God
Sep 26th 2009, 05:10 PM
Depends on how you look at it I guess? Did God create the Angels with the ability to choose to rebel? If he did, then he created the Angels, knowing they would rebel. Since he knew they would rebel prior to creating them, then creating them, knowing they would rebel, would have been his will. So their rebellion wasn't really contrary to his will? Was it? Since he created them, knowing they would rebel and if his will were different, the simplest thing to achieve his will would have been to not create them.

Also, If Satan had the ability to choose to disobey, why did he obey the restrictions God placed upon him when testing Job? Weird that he could choose ot rebel and be cast out of heaven but was subject to God's commands afterwards.
Makes my head hurt.

I guess it will be made clear someday.

Well, God created Adam and Eve knowing beforehand they would rebel, didn't He? God allowed free will to play out even though He foreknew what the results would be. To say that Adam and Eve and the angels rebelling is "God's will" is a bit of a stretch, though. It's never God's will for people and angels to do evil. The Bible plainly indicates God hates sin. However, He knew, by allowing free will as opposed to us and the angels being robotic, that there was the chance for people and angels to choose to do what is contrary to His wishes. God willingly allowed this to occur, but it's not the same as it being His "will." :hmm:

christseeker
Sep 26th 2009, 06:31 PM
Thank You. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why God would create servants with free will?


Maybe they don't. Since God is sovergin maybe it was His plan all all along the angels rebel, all a part of His plan to bring glory to Himself :dunno:

TrustingFollower
Sep 26th 2009, 07:07 PM
Maybe they don't. Since God is sovergin maybe it was His plan all all along the angels rebel, all a part of His plan to bring glory to Himself :dunno:
God could have brought just as much or maybe even more glory to Himself by just creating only obedient angels and people. Allowing free will demonstrates God's sovereignty even more than just having created a bunch of worshipers.

christseeker
Sep 26th 2009, 07:10 PM
God could have brought just as much or maybe even more glory to Himself by just creating only obedient angels and people. Allowing free will demonstrates God's sovereignty even more than just having created a bunch of worshipers.
Are far as Angels I don't know if they have free-will. Humans don't, we sold that in the garden when Adam ate the fruit. We are bound to sin until Christ calls us out and restores our freedom again. My 5 cents (inflation :) )

nzyr
Sep 27th 2009, 07:25 AM
Maybe they don't. Since God is sovergin maybe it was His plan all all along the angels rebel, all a part of His plan to bring glory to Himself :dunno:
How could they rebel if the didn't have free will?

christseeker
Sep 27th 2009, 05:29 PM
There would be no need of free will to rebel. Sinners rebel all the time they have no free will, they are bound to thier sins

TrustingFollower
Sep 27th 2009, 05:38 PM
There would be no need of free will to rebel. Sinners rebel all the time they have no free will, they are bound to thier sins
This is a bold opinion here, can you show us using the scripture where you are coming up with this opinion?

christseeker
Sep 27th 2009, 05:48 PM
* Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
* Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!

* Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
* Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
* Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
* Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
* Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
* Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
* Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
* Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
* Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
* Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
* Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
* John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
* John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
* John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
* John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
* Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
* Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Here you go :) (hmm, 15 characters)

Warrior4God
Sep 28th 2009, 01:23 PM
There would be no need of free will to rebel. Sinners rebel all the time they have no free will, they are bound to thier sins

I think you are misunderstanding what free will is. That means you choose what you are doing, whether it's good or bad. Yes, mankind has a dominant sin nature. However, we still sometimes choose to do things that are good. Despite having a nature bent towards sin, it's not something that has taken us over to the point of being unable to do good. Ultimately, we still choose to sin or to do good. Humans and angels both have this free will.