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Nihil Obstat
Sep 23rd 2009, 07:38 PM
I've heard a wide array of thoughts concerning what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is. Most all acknowledge the basic definition as Mark describes in 3:30, as declaring the Spirit to be an unclean spirit. From there people reach all sorts of conclusions about how this sin can take shape in the lives of individuals. However, I do not believe that this sin can only be committed by one individual, nor do I think Jesus means that those who commit this sin are automatically doomed to hell. Turn to Matt. 12.

It is in v.24 that we read of the Pharisees calling the Holy Spirit "Beelzebub", and they do so in context to v.18, when Matthew quotes Isaiah 42:1-4 as speaking of how God will put His Spirit upon Jesus. When they speak of the Spirit as the ruler of demons, Jesus speaks to them in parables, and then He explains the meanings of those parables. Perhaps it'd be best to move from the end back towards the beginning.

In v.43-45, in parable form, Jesus describes a man being filled with unclean spirits, and interprets the seven-fold demonized man as "this wicked generation". Within that parable, the man is called a "house" by the demon. In v.33 Jesus speaks in a parable of a tree, known by the fruit it produces. There is not a good tree and a bad tree - there is only one tree, and the tree speaks of the Holy Spirit. To "make the tree good", then, is to "speak good of the Spirit", and to "make the tree bad" is to "speak against the Holy Spirit". The man, then, of v.35 is, I believe, speaking of a generation as well, as evidenced by Jesus' reply to their "words", saying twice that their generation would be condemned (v.41-42).

Now back to the beginning, to the parable of the divided kingdom, city, or house. This too is parable language to describe their generation (cp. v.44's "house"). The multitudes were on the verge of proclaiming Jesus to be the Son of David, the King of the kingdom of Israel, but the Pharisees, their leaders, declared Him to be demon-possessed. They were a divided generation, and they were divided over His identity - an identity founded upon the spirit within Him. Jesus has been casting devils out of those in that generation (v.22); if it was by Satan that He casted Satan out of them, then Jesus was not King. But if He was casting Satan out by the Holy Spirit, then He truly was Israel's rightful King (v.28). Satan's house was that generation (cp. v.43-45), and Jesus was casting him out and plundering his house of souls! (This is where I got my sign-on name from.)

This has implications on the unforgivable sin - that it is committed by a whole generation of those who do not do the will of the Father (cp. v.50). In other words, it is a corporate sin. Which, of course, has further implications on this sin - namely, that it is not a "dooming to hell". Rather, as we see in v.41-42, it must be unforgivable in the sense that "destruction will come upon their generation", as Nineveh and Ethiopia were forgiven of due to their leaders' recognition of the Spirit of God as Holy. In Jesus' day, that generation was at risk of facing God's judgment, which, because their leaders considered Caesar as their only king, that judgment was manifested when Rome sieged Jerusalem and took down their temple in 70 AD.

What are your guys' thoughts? Thanks. - astrongerthanhe (Luke 11:22)

Jerriy
Sep 23rd 2009, 07:50 PM
However, I do not believe that this sin can only be committed by one individual, nor do I think Jesus means that those who commit this sin are automatically doomed to hell. Turn to Matt. 12.Hmmm... interesting point.

Nihil Obstat
Sep 24th 2009, 06:08 PM
Is anyone completely against my interpretation of the unforgivable sin? Or does this make much more sense to you than any other thing you've heard concerning this sin? I'd like some feedback. To sum it up, I'm saying that it is unforgivable in the sense that God will not relent from judging their city, and not in the sense that if you've ever said such a thing of the Holy Spirit that you are automatically destined to hell without the ability to repent. I'm saying this because this sin seems to be a sin committed corporately, and not by any one individual.

Nineveh heard the prophet, recognized the Spirit by which Jonah spoke as Holy, and repented. Due to this, God relented from destroying their city. The queen of the south came to hear Solomon's wisdom, who was the son of David filled with the Spirit of wisdom. But this generation denied that Jesus was the Son of David, filled with that same Spirit, and, indeed, was even greater than Solomon. Though Jesus and His disciples were going all throughout Israel, preaching the kingdom of God with such power that the principalities were being cast down like lightning, and sweeping the house clean, if that generation did not accept the Spirit by which they spoke as Holy, their city would be demonized seven times worse than before, and so be destroyed by God. This came to pass when God clothed Himself with the Roman armies and left not one temple stone standing upon another.

I would really appreciate your comments. Thanks guys. - astro

markdrums
Sep 24th 2009, 06:31 PM
Hey Astro,
I'm half-way on board with that. ;)
I agree that it's not about a "one time" thing... or even several times.... It's much more than that.
I see this as the WILLFUL, CONTINUOUS rejection of the Holy Spirit. Never accepting his calling out to us, but rather, remaining in "the world & the worldly life". It's about a person's heart, & whether or not the Spirit is within.

I also believe that this is an individual choice, as well as a "corporate" choice, and an individual person CAN commit the unpardonable sin.

;)

theBelovedDisciple
Sep 24th 2009, 10:47 PM
Blaspheming the Holy Ghost .. is attributing the work of the Holy Ghost.. His Power... to the work of satan or devils....

very simple.... when looking at the Scriputure Jesus rebuked those who accused Him of casting out devils by the prince of devils...

and He goes onto His teaching about a kingdom being divided .. that kingdom has an end and will fall.. this referring to the kingdom of darkness and satan's .. and the accusation that Jesus Himself cast out devils by the prince of the devils...

but He didn't He cast them out by the Prince of devils and even the devils obeyed Him because of the Power of the Holy Ghost.. and it was the Power of the Holy Ghost that He did these things... and even the devils recognized that He was Truly Indeed the Holy One of Isreal.. they recognized Him before any of the religous scholars and elite did.. can you believe that?? instead these accused Him of having an 'unclean spirit'..... when He cast out devils...

Blaspheming the Holy Ghost.. will NEVER be forgiven.. that person is in danger of Eternal Damnation... Jesus Himself said it...

I don't believe its what many try to decipher theologically.. coming out with this long drawn out reason of what Blasphemeing the Holy Ghost is...

it is what It is.. Attributing the Work and Power of the Holy Ghost to the work and power of satan... thats what it is.. nothing more nothing less...

now I pose this question to you...

Even the devils recognized who Jesus the Christ was.. before the religious elite did...

now did the religious elite really 'know' who Jesus was... but because of pride and envy didn't want to acknowledge Him... because of the hardness of their hearts? did they really 'know' yet because of their deaf ears and hard hearts and blind eyes.. just didn't acknowledge Him?


Paul states that prior to his conversion on the Damascus Road.. he was a persecutor, injurious, and a blasphmemer...

but Paul states that he obtained mercy....

because he did it in 'ignorance'....

God forgave Him of his blasphmey... this done because Paul was a 'chosen vessel'... as are all His Children...

can one blasphmeme and yet do it in igrnorance? doing because 'everybody' else is... following the crowd.. like with the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day...

Partaker of Christ
Sep 24th 2009, 11:57 PM
Hi Astro!

This certainly is worthy of time to ponder and pray about.

This may be something or nothing, but I have read this a couple of times now, and then I was led to read Hebrews 3 and 4. Especially the "And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope"

It seems to me a corporate responsibility, to hold fast and to "exhort one another every day"

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

If we fail to hold fast corporately, then we may have our house plundered

Nihil Obstat
Sep 25th 2009, 02:12 PM
Hey Astro,
I'm half-way on board with that.
I agree that it's not about a "one time" thing... or even several times.... It's much more than that.
I see this as the WILLFUL, CONTINUOUS rejection of the Holy Spirit. Never accepting his calling out to us, but rather, remaining in "the world & the worldly life". It's about a person's heart, & whether or not the Spirit is within.

I also believe that this is an individual choice, as well as a "corporate" choice, and an individual person CAN commit the unpardonable sin.

So you would at least agree with me that blaspheming the Spirit once does not condemn you to hell with no chance or ability to repent. That's good. But if an individual can commit this sin, do they ever reach that state where they are unable to be forgiven? I just have a really hard time with that. I believe that God does not show forgiveness to those already in hell, but on this side of eternity He sends His sunlight and rain and even gives breath to the righteous and the unrighteous, all that we might praise Him. Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but not from worshiping Him - He hardened his heart from allowing the Hebrews to worship God in the wilderness. Big difference. Anyway. Thanks for replying.

Nihil Obstat
Sep 25th 2009, 02:13 PM
It seems to me a corporate responsibility, to hold fast and to "exhort one another every day"

Good stuff. I definitely think you're right.

My heart's Desire
Sep 27th 2009, 05:01 PM
Blaspheming the Holy Ghost .. is attributing the work of the Holy Ghost.. His Power... to the work of satan or devils....

very simple.... when looking at the Scriputure Jesus rebuked those who accused Him of casting out devils by the prince of devils...

and He goes onto His teaching about a kingdom being divided .. that kingdom has an end and will fall.. this referring to the kingdom of darkness and satan's .. and the accusation that Jesus Himself cast out devils by the prince of the devils...

but He didn't He cast them out by the Prince of devils and even the devils obeyed Him because of the Power of the Holy Ghost.. and it was the Power of the Holy Ghost that He did these things... and even the devils recognized that He was Truly Indeed the Holy One of Isreal.. they recognized Him before any of the religous scholars and elite did.. can you believe that?? instead these accused Him of having an 'unclean spirit'..... when He cast out devils...

Blaspheming the Holy Ghost.. will NEVER be forgiven.. that person is in danger of Eternal Damnation... Jesus Himself said it...

I don't believe its what many try to decipher theologically.. coming out with this long drawn out reason of what Blasphemeing the Holy Ghost is...

it is what It is.. Attributing the Work and Power of the Holy Ghost to the work and power of satan... thats what it is.. nothing more nothing less...

now I pose this question to you...

Even the devils recognized who Jesus the Christ was.. before the religious elite did...

now did the religious elite really 'know' who Jesus was... but because of pride and envy didn't want to acknowledge Him... because of the hardness of their hearts? did they really 'know' yet because of their deaf ears and hard hearts and blind eyes.. just didn't acknowledge Him?


Paul states that prior to his conversion on the Damascus Road.. he was a persecutor, injurious, and a blasphmemer...

but Paul states that he obtained mercy....

because he did it in 'ignorance'....

God forgave Him of his blasphmey... this done because Paul was a 'chosen vessel'... as are all His Children...

can one blasphmeme and yet do it in igrnorance? doing because 'everybody' else is... following the crowd.. like with the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day...
I believe this is exactly what it is. I've been told you cannot commit this sin of blasphemy today since the Lord Jesus is not here doing these deeds in bodily form as He was then. But I kind of question that considering He is here, maybe not in bodily form but still He is here. And would that be the same situation?
Most of us believe He is still performing miracles etc but this is usually through prayer etc and not from His bodily presense?
I also believe the "unforgivable" sin is by time of death simply having never by faith being saved by the Lord. These people have resisted the Holy Spirit to the very end.
I get the feeling people think just saying one inappropriate word (though certainly that is unwise to do),about the Holy Spirit condemns them, I'm not so sure that is the meaning.

BadDog
Sep 28th 2009, 03:05 AM
asstrongerthanhe,

I like your post, because you are doing something that few do when trying to interpret scripture - looking at it in context. However, as much as I see most of what you are saying - it makes sense - I have a grammatical issue with this position:

In vs. 32 we read:

Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

The words in bold above in the Greek are singular (ὃς ἐὰν or ὃς ὰν). I wondered if they were perhaps plural, which would lend themselves to the corporate idea, but they're not. (And I agree that Jesus is addressing the Pharisees as a group.) Also, the verbs underlined are both singular (3rd person Aorist singular - εἴπῃ).

The idea is of "anyone who speaks [singular] a word against the Son of Man... the Holy Spirit..."

But I like how you're thinking. Keep looking for things in their natural context, and asking good questions. I was hoping that your approach was correct, but I have my doubts. This doesn't shoot down the corporate idea, but you'll need to deal with it.

Take care,

BD

Nihil Obstat
Sep 28th 2009, 05:20 AM
asstrongerthanhe,

I like your post, because you are doing something that few do when trying to interpret scripture - looking at it in context. However, as much as I see most of what you are saying - it makes sense - I have a grammatical issue with this position:

In vs. 32 we read:

Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

The words in bold above in the Greek are singular (ὃς ἐὰν or ὃς ὰν). I wondered if they were perhaps plural, which would lend themselves to the corporate idea, but they're not. (And I agree that Jesus is addressing the Pharisees as a group.) Also, the verbs underlined are both singular (3rd person Aorist singular - εἴπῃ).

The idea is of "anyone who speaks [singular] a word against the Son of Man... the Holy Spirit..."

But I like how you're thinking. Keep looking for things in their natural context, and asking good questions. I was hoping that your approach was correct, but I have my doubts. This doesn't shoot down the corporate idea, but you'll need to deal with it.

Take care,

BD

Thank you for pointing this out to me! It looks like I have some 'splainin' to do!

ae123
Sep 29th 2009, 01:43 AM
Is it possible that it is not possible for us to blaspheme the Holy Spirit because we are not capable of understanding what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

Diolectic
Sep 29th 2009, 02:51 AM
my take on the unforgivable sin


To say that which you know is of God to be evil.

This is come by progression of rejecting the truth and works of the Holy Spirit which you are surly persuaded of to be such. You eventually come to the point of rejecting as the work of the devil.

The pharisee's knew that Jesus was the Messiah, but they hated who He (the Messiah) came as, namely, Jesus.

Stormfreak1
Sep 30th 2009, 04:05 AM
Well, I'll be the one to disagree on this end that blaspheme of the Spirit is a corporate sin. It is an individual sin that unbelievers must avoid (i.e. turning to Jesus) and believers must avoid (sustained, deliberate sin and rebellion puts them in danger of this.) Jesus warned about falling away in Matthew 24:10. Also Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26-30 says some pretty scary things related to deliberate sin and rebellion. Meanwhile, Paul warned about falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 and 1 Timothy 4:1-2; describing the conscience being seared as if by a hot iron. This should put the fear of the LORD in us related to avoiding deliberate sin and rebellion.

There is also the warning against taking the future Mark of the Beast in Revelation 14:9-12.

Some biblical examples of those who clearly had faith, but "fell away" from the faith: 1.) Balaam- was a prophet in Israel, yet he betrayed the Jewish people into the hands of the Moabites by leading them into great sin. He is an example of what not to do in 2 Peter 2:13-16. Judas was another one who believed to a degree (he was one of the 12 implying that he cast out demons, healed the sick etc. etc.), yet his greed eventually led to John 17:12 as being "doomed to destruction".


By the way, if anyone reading this thread is afraid they may have done it:

If you had actually blasphemed the Holy Spirit, you wouldn't be the least bit concerned.

ae123
Sep 30th 2009, 04:46 AM
Why wouldn't I be concerned?

BadDog
Sep 30th 2009, 10:58 AM
Is it possible that it is not possible for us to blaspheme the Holy Spirit because we are not capable of understanding what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

:rofl:

Timely humor!

BD

John146
Sep 30th 2009, 08:02 PM
I've heard a wide array of thoughts concerning what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is. Most all acknowledge the basic definition as Mark describes in 3:30, as declaring the Spirit to be an unclean spirit. From there people reach all sorts of conclusions about how this sin can take shape in the lives of individuals. However, I do not believe that this sin can only be committed by one individual, nor do I think Jesus means that those who commit this sin are automatically doomed to hell. Turn to Matt. 12.

It is in v.24 that we read of the Pharisees calling the Holy Spirit "Beelzebub", and they do so in context to v.18, when Matthew quotes Isaiah 42:1-4 as speaking of how God will put His Spirit upon Jesus. When they speak of the Spirit as the ruler of demons, Jesus speaks to them in parables, and then He explains the meanings of those parables. Perhaps it'd be best to move from the end back towards the beginning.

In v.43-45, in parable form, Jesus describes a man being filled with unclean spirits, and interprets the seven-fold demonized man as "this wicked generation". Within that parable, the man is called a "house" by the demon. In v.33 Jesus speaks in a parable of a tree, known by the fruit it produces. There is not a good tree and a bad tree - there is only one tree, and the tree speaks of the Holy Spirit. To "make the tree good", then, is to "speak good of the Spirit", and to "make the tree bad" is to "speak against the Holy Spirit". The man, then, of v.35 is, I believe, speaking of a generation as well, as evidenced by Jesus' reply to their "words", saying twice that their generation would be condemned (v.41-42).

Now back to the beginning, to the parable of the divided kingdom, city, or house. This too is parable language to describe their generation (cp. v.44's "house"). The multitudes were on the verge of proclaiming Jesus to be the Son of David, the King of the kingdom of Israel, but the Pharisees, their leaders, declared Him to be demon-possessed. They were a divided generation, and they were divided over His identity - an identity founded upon the spirit within Him. Jesus has been casting devils out of those in that generation (v.22); if it was by Satan that He casted Satan out of them, then Jesus was not King. But if He was casting Satan out by the Holy Spirit, then He truly was Israel's rightful King (v.28). Satan's house was that generation (cp. v.43-45), and Jesus was casting him out and plundering his house of souls! (This is where I got my sign-on name from.)

This has implications on the unforgivable sin - that it is committed by a whole generation of those who do not do the will of the Father (cp. v.50). In other words, it is a corporate sin. Which, of course, has further implications on this sin - namely, that it is not a "dooming to hell". Rather, as we see in v.41-42, it must be unforgivable in the sense that "destruction will come upon their generation", as Nineveh and Ethiopia were forgiven of due to their leaders' recognition of the Spirit of God as Holy. In Jesus' day, that generation was at risk of facing God's judgment, which, because their leaders considered Caesar as their only king, that judgment was manifested when Rome sieged Jerusalem and took down their temple in 70 AD.

What are your guys' thoughts? Thanks. - astrongerthanhe (Luke 11:22)I have to disagree with you saying that it is a corporate sin. I think we can clearly see that is not the case here:

Matt 12
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Notice verse 32. Jesus is saying that any person who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not have that act forgiven. So, speaking against the Holy Spirit is the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It is an individual sin that can be committed by "whosoever".

Now that I've read the other posts it looks like I'm making basically the same point that BadDog already made.

divaD
Sep 30th 2009, 08:29 PM
I've heard many Charismatics claim that when one doesn't believe their tongues to be of the Holy Spirit, that this is blasphemy, or at least is on the border of being blasphemy.
Do others agree with this? If I believe the tongues recorded in Scriptures to be of the Holy Spirit, but if I have my doubts about modern day tongues, does this actually make me a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit?

The same can be asked about the alleged healings and miracles today operating thru these same Charismatics. If I believe what is recorded about healings and miracles in the Bible, yet have my doubts about what modern day Charismatics claim to be gifts of healings and miracles, would this also make me a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit? If so, in either or both cases, doesn't that mean I'm pretty much doomed?

John146
Sep 30th 2009, 09:29 PM
I've heard many Charismatics claim that when one doesn't believe their tongues to be of the Holy Spirit, that this is blasphemy, or at least is on the border of being blasphemy.
Do others agree with this? If I believe the tongues recorded in Scriptures to be of the Holy Spirit, but if I have my doubts about modern day tongues, does this actually make me a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit?

The same can be asked about the alleged healings and miracles today operating thru these same Charismatics. If I believe what is recorded about healings and miracles in the Bible, yet have my doubts about what modern day Charismatics claim to be gifts of healings and miracles, would this also make me a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit? If so, in either or both cases, doesn't that mean I'm pretty much doomed?Having doubts and making outright claims are two different things. The Pharisees attributed the work of the Holy Spirit in casting out demons to Beelzebub. That was a case of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

But having doubts about whether or not healings and miracles are being performed by the Holy Spirit is not blasphemy. But I'd be careful about ever outright declaring that those are not being done by the Holy Spirit. It's probably best to just stick with having doubts about it instead of coming to a conclusion either way. I, too, have doubts about a lot of the healings and miracles that they claim are being performed by God, but unless I can somehow prove they are not I'm not going to say definitively that they are not.

ae123
Oct 1st 2009, 01:08 AM
I was not meaning to be funny, but I'm always happy to see a smile on someone's face or to know I made someone happy. So, I'll take your response as an emphatic "no", though you wouldn't argue one does have to be, at least, on a certain level to understand what it means to "blaspheme".

No response required.

BadDog
Oct 1st 2009, 01:51 AM
Following is the traditional view of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. We should also remember that any interpretation which relies upon attributes of God which are contrary to those presented elsewhere in scripture are clearly not the intended meaning. For example, if our view of the meaning contradicts a theology that God is forgiving and loves us unconditionally, it must be in error:

Now to blaspheme the Son of Man (Jesus) is to speak evil of Him... to discredit Him or His message in some way. The texts on the blasphemy of the Spirit all point out that blaspheming the Son is forgivable. IMO to do this essentially means to reject the truth of the Gospel of Christ in some manner (that Jesus came to die in our behalf, and we gain eternal life through trusting in Him, who is God's Son). Now obviously if someone were to reject this message, or Christ, he cannot be saved. But apparently that is something from which a person can repent. He can be brought to a point where he recognizes his sin and error, and genuinely desires to accept the truth.

But the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgivable. The traditional view is that this means to reject the same truth as above, but in full cognizance that this is what you are doing. So then the blasphemy of the Spirit is the clearly-thought-out and willful rejection of the work of the Spirit of God in revealing the truth of the gospel to us, even though we recognize there can be no other explanation of the miracles which Christ performed openly. That's what many of the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders did - they recognized that God must be working through Christ due to the miracles and signs, yet refused to accept Him as the Messiah. In John 9, the healing of a blind man, we see that the blind man recognized that unless God was working through the man who healed him He could do nothing. When Christ came to him and asked if he "believed in the Son of Man," his reaction was to ask, "Who is He sir, that I may believe in Him?" There is someone who is allowing the Spirit to work in his life. Blasphemy against the Spirit then means the complete and informed, willful rejection of Christ as the Messiah and instead to credit His works to Satan! (What else can one do if he rejects Christ as God's Son?)

Now IMO this is not a sin that a true believer can commit, for the true believer has already accepted Jesus as the Messiah. If the blasphemy of the Spirit can be committed today (and many say it cannot), then it is the unbeliever who can commit it. IMO one cannot come to Christ unless the Spirit draws him (John 6:44, 45). John 16:8-11 describes how the Spirit convicts people of their sin and need of a Savior. If we reject this work of the Spirit, how can we be saved? Only as we allow the Spirit to work in our unsaved hearts, drawing us to the Son, can we be saved.

So then, in summary IMO to blaspheme the Spirit is to reject God's process of working to save us. Jesus said, "But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." (Matthew 12:28).

To reject Jesus as the Messiah required some explanation as to where His power came from. Since no one at the time could deny that His miracles were genuine and that there was evidence of supernatural power, people who persisted in rejecting Christ as God’s Messiah had no other option but to attribute His power to Satan, for obviously a man could not perform such things. In so doing, they became guilty of the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. (Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as I am describing it, is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ to Satan.) Since this sin was against the instrument by whom God saved people, those who blasphemed the Spirit were forever doomed since they short-circuited the means God provided for their salvation.

Anyway, there are tons of thoughts out there on this blasphemy, but most agree that this is not something which a believer can commit; and even those who do not hold to eternal security usually agree on this (though not all). Also, I do agree with astrongerthanhe, the OP of this thread, that Jesus was dealing with the Pharisees in a corporate manner, though our salvation is an individual matter. I do believe He was specifically addressing Jews such as the Pharisees and scribes. Now Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus are examples of Pharisees who came to faith in Christ.

BD

Stormfreak1
Oct 1st 2009, 04:20 AM
Why wouldn't I be concerned?

Those who are in danger of blaspheme of the Spirit cannot repent, will not repent, and have absolutely no desire to repent. It implies a refusal to believe the truth when openly revealed and demonstrated in a crystal clear way (this rules out a struggle in trusting Jesus when our understanding of truth is not clear in our hearts) As the result of absolutely refusing to believe the truth, God gives them over to deception (2 thessalonians 2:9-11)

If we still have the desire to follow and love Jesus, (and pain that we aren't doing it as well as we percieve is possible) it is proof that we did not commit the unpardonable sin.

BadDog
Oct 1st 2009, 12:19 PM
Those who are in danger of blaspheme of the Spirit cannot repent, will not repent, and have absolutely no desire to repent. It implies a refusal to believe the truth when openly revealed and demonstrated in a crystal clear way (this rules out a struggle in trusting Jesus when our understanding of truth is not clear in our hearts) As the result of absolutely refusing to believe the truth, God gives them over to deception (2 thessalonians 2:9-11)

If we still have the desire to follow and love Jesus, (and pain that we aren't doing it as well as we perceive is possible) it is proof that we did not commit the unpardonable sin.I really like Stormfreak1's cross reference... I'll include another verse:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan's working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned--those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.

The underlined text above indicates:

They're unbelievers, not believers.
They had a choice to accept clear truth, yet rejected it. They were not genuinely seeking truth.
Because they are not genuinely seeking truth, a strong delusion is initiated by God so that they "will believe" falsehood.
The ones condemned are those who refused to believe the clear evidence of the truth, because they enjoyed their sin too much.


According to this text, believers cannot commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Great cross reference. And as Stormfreak1 said, the fact that someone fears they may have committed this sin is evidence that they did not, for those described in this text are ones who are not seeking truth, and would have been so deluded by the Lord that they would come to a point where they do not realize they are believing a lie.

BD

ae123
Oct 3rd 2009, 08:19 PM
That bit about the Pharisees is intense. I would add that each had a role, and that each was convinced one way or the other about Jesus, to varying degrees. But surely they struggled intensely with choices they would make pertaining to Jesus and how He fit into things, at that crucial juncture in history. I won't say, though, that I have not wronged the Lord any less than than they, through my actions/lack thereof, and choices.

emperormar
Oct 4th 2009, 12:23 AM
Blaspheming the Holy Ghost .. is attributing the work of the Holy Ghost.. His Power... to the work of satan or devils....

very simple.... when looking at the Scriputure Jesus rebuked those who accused Him of casting out devils by the prince of devils...

and He goes onto His teaching about a kingdom being divided .. that kingdom has an end and will fall.. this referring to the kingdom of darkness and satan's .. and the accusation that Jesus Himself cast out devils by the prince of the devils...

but He didn't He cast them out by the Prince of devils and even the devils obeyed Him because of the Power of the Holy Ghost.. and it was the Power of the Holy Ghost that He did these things... and even the devils recognized that He was Truly Indeed the Holy One of Isreal.. they recognized Him before any of the religous scholars and elite did.. can you believe that?? instead these accused Him of having an 'unclean spirit'..... when He cast out devils...

Blaspheming the Holy Ghost.. will NEVER be forgiven.. that person is in danger of Eternal Damnation... Jesus Himself said it...

I don't believe its what many try to decipher theologically.. coming out with this long drawn out reason of what Blasphemeing the Holy Ghost is...

it is what It is.. Attributing the Work and Power of the Holy Ghost to the work and power of satan... thats what it is.. nothing more nothing less...


I agree with this and considering the context (which is the only good way to interpret anything) I can't see it being interpreted any other way.

kevinbtaylor
Oct 4th 2009, 01:05 AM
:hmm: .Today's Question: What is blasphemy against the Spirit?
Bible Answer: I appreciate the question. Many sincere believersdemons and speak in tongues. If I would abstain from the gifts of the Spirit, then they would accept me, so it is clear that what they really reject is the Holy Spirit and not me.
On the other hand, I get many that write to me telling me they are afraid that maybe in the past they have blasphemed the Spirit out of ignorance, now they accept the gifts of the Spirit. They do not need to worry, because Jesus was not speaking to those who get carried away by wrong teaching, rather He warns those who have a hateful attitude toward the gifts of the Spirit.I think most people may have simply "grieved" the Holy Spirit, instead of blaspheming Him. To grieve Him is to simply limit what He wants to do because of doubt. But blasphemy involves "hate" not "doubt".

i have more.
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Today's Question: What is blasphemy against the Spirit?
Bible Answer: I appreciate the question. Many sincere believers have feared that they have committed this unpardonable sin.
Fear came over me when I heard those scary words: "God will forgive you for saying anything bad about Him or His Son, but if you speak against the Holy Spirit, God will not forgive you!"
I'm sure that Mrs. Rutton did not know the impact her words would make on me and the rest of her second grade Sunday school class, but her words put the fear of God into us!
Some may legitimately question the wisdom of a Sunday school teacher warning young, impressionable children about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I can understand that concern. For one thing, my little, immature mind couldn't comprehend what that sin was; all I knew was that I didn't want to commit it. I thought it had something to do with cussing.
I heard my peers using God's name in vain and even saying "Jesus!" as a dirty word. But I never heard my friends speak against the Holy Spirit. As far as I was concern they were safe!
Obviously, blasphemy against the Spirit has nothing to do with cussing; it has to do with mocking the works of the Holy Spirit, with the intent on keeping others from wholeheartedly following Christ.
Jesus alerted the Pharisees to the possibility of them committing this unpardonable sin when they accused Him of driving out demons by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of demons. (see Matthew 12:22-32 and Mark 3:22-30).
Did Jesus take this slander personally? No. He, in fact, steers their criticism away from Himself and directs their criticism toward the Holy Spirit. He indicates that their judgment, though it seemed targeted against Himself, was really aimed at the Holy Spirit.
"I drive out demons by the Spirit of God," Jesus proclaimed to His accusers. To criticize a miracle from Jesus was equivalent to criticizing a miracle of the Holy Spirit. His power came from the Spirit.
I'm aware of the differences of interpretation concerning blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. One group says that it is impossible for anyone to commit this sin except those in Jesus' day. But they miss the point. Today is the age of the Holy Spirit. If there ever was a time that a person could commit this sin it would be now.
Another group claims that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is simply the act of rejecting Christ. But they, too, seem to miss the point. The unpardonable blasphemy is not action against Christ, but words against the Holy Spirit. "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven," Jesus assured. The unforgivable sin is not related to Christ but to the Spirit.
It is clear that Jesus was endeavoring to protect the charismatic ministry of the church. On another occasion Jesus seems to bend over backwards to do this. He cautions the disciples from misusing their authority when they tried to silence a renegade disciple who obviously had a supernatural ministry.
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me" (Mark 9:39).
Perhaps, for the sake of unity between evangelicals and charismatics, we leaders have been hesitant to echo Christ' warning against blasphemy of the Spirit. But we should not think doing so will bring division. Most non-charismatics do not even come close to blasphemy. They wisely remain silent, instead of talking against the manifestations of the Spirit. At worst, they simply propagate their view that the gifts have passed away without condemning those who believe differently.
But there appears to be a vocal segment of anti-charismatic leaders who arrogantly speak against the gifts of the Holy Spirit. (Of course they claim only to be speaking against charismatic leaders, not the Holy Spirit. But after listening to their scathing accusations I can't tell the difference.)
I met two Mormon missionaries who had more fear of God than these charismatic-bashers. They politely shared with my wife and me their view that only Mormons could be saved.
I kindly objected and told them how I was born again. I shared how I was filled with the Holy Spirit.
"How do you know that you have the Holy Spirit?" the head missionary asked.
"I know because I have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues," I answered boldly.
And without hesitation, he questioned, "How can you be sure that your speaking in tongues is from the Holy Spirit and not from an evil spirit?"
I cleverly answered, "You tell me, did I receive the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit?"
The other missionary interrupted, "It is not our place to judge."
"But you say that no one can receive the Holy Spirit without being a Mormon," I baited.
The leader spoke up. "I'm prepared to tell you whether you received the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit!"
"Go, ahead. Tell me."
He paused. He thought for a moment. His mind seemed to drift. Finally, he forced the words out slowly, but almost wishing to keep silent, "You received an evil spirit."
With a boldness not my own, I pointed my finger at him and fired the words, "Jesus said you can blaspheme Him or His Father and still be forgiven, but if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you'll not be forgiven in this age or the age to come! If you're right, then you have nothing to fear; but if your wrong, then you are in danger of eternal damnation!"
The other Mormon jumped in, "I didn't say it." Then he pointed to his friend. "HE SAID IT!"
A couple of minutes elapsed when the leader softly said, "I want to take back my statement." And with humility, he apologized, "Sir, not only should I not have judged you, but I was wrong in my judgment of you. According to my Mormon teaching, you can not have the Holy Spirit. But, I believe, you are the first non-Mormon I've met who has the Holy Spirit."
I wish some fundamentalist would have the same fear of God as these Mormons.
Instead many anti-charismatics have spewed their venom to ministers like me who operate in the gifts of the Spirit and will actually judge our salvation. They will tell others that we are not even saved. I have noticed that when a person vehemently rejects the ministry of the Holy Spirit that eventually they will hate those ministers who operate in the gifts of healing, miracles and casting out demons. They will turn their hatred toward the charismatic ministry into a crusade.

I get many hate emails from these people who are very opposed to the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. Many have told me that they do not even think I am saved. Why? Simply because I heal the sick, cast out demons and speak in tongues. If I would abstain from the gifts of the Spirit, then they would accept me, so it is clear that what they really reject is the Holy Spirit and not me.
On the other hand, I get many that write to me telling me they are afraid that maybe in the past they have blasphemed the Spirit out of ignorance, now they accept the gifts of the Spirit. They do not need to worry, because Jesus was not speaking to those who get carried away by wrong teaching, rather He warns those who have a hateful attitude toward the gifts of the Spirit.I think most people may have simply "grieved" the Holy Spirit, instead of blaspheming Him. To grieve Him is to simply limit what He wants to do because of doubt. But blasphemy involves "hate" not "doubt".




The word "blasphemy" is a term that speaks of damnable heresy, not misjudgment.Many, because of poor teaching, misjudge others— that's forgivable. The Pharisees, on the other hand, went beyond judging to trying to keep others from following Christ. Blasphemy against the Spirit is the absolute, permanent, hateful rejection of the gifts of the Holy Spirit with the motive to keep others from fully following Christ as well as to keep one's position of power. A person who has committed this sin has no desire for repentance, will divide the body of Christ, judge the salvation of others, and will ultimately die in this state.
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Today's Question: What is blasphemy against the Spirit?
Bible Answer: I appreciate the question. Many sincere believers have feared that they have committed this unpardonable sin.
Fear came over me when I heard those scary words: "God will forgive you for saying anything bad about Him or His Son, but if you speak against the Holy Spirit, God will not forgive you!"
I'm sure that Mrs. Rutton did not know the impact her words would make on me and the rest of her second grade Sunday school class, but her words put the fear of God into us!
Some may legitimately question the wisdom of a Sunday school teacher warning young, impressionable children about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I can understand that concern. For one thing, my little, immature mind couldn't comprehend what that sin was; all I knew was that I didn't want to commit it. I thought it had something to do with cussing.
I heard my peers using God's name in vain and even saying "Jesus!" as a dirty word. But I never heard my friends speak against the Holy Spirit. As far as I was concern they were safe!
Obviously, blasphemy against the Spirit has nothing to do with cussing; it has to do with mocking the works of the Holy Spirit, with the intent on keeping others from wholeheartedly following Christ.
Jesus alerted the Pharisees to the possibility of them committing this unpardonable sin when they accused Him of driving out demons by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of demons. (see Matthew 12:22-32 and Mark 3:22-30).
Did Jesus take this slander personally? No. He, in fact, steers their criticism away from Himself and directs their criticism toward the Holy Spirit. He indicates that their judgment, though it seemed targeted against Himself, was really aimed at the Holy Spirit.
"I drive out demons by the Spirit of God," Jesus proclaimed to His accusers. To criticize a miracle from Jesus was equivalent to criticizing a miracle of the Holy Spirit. His power came from the Spirit.
I'm aware of the differences of interpretation concerning blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. One group says that it is impossible for anyone to commit this sin except those in Jesus' day. But they miss the point. Today is the age of the Holy Spirit. If there ever was a time that a person could commit this sin it would be now.
Another group claims that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is simply the act of rejecting Christ. But they, too, seem to miss the point. The unpardonable blasphemy is not action against Christ, but words against the Holy Spirit. "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven," Jesus assured. The unforgivable sin is not related to Christ but to the Spirit.
It is clear that Jesus was endeavoring to protect the charismatic ministry of the church. On another occasion Jesus seems to bend over backwards to do this. He cautions the disciples from misusing their authority when they tried to silence a renegade disciple who obviously had a supernatural ministry.
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me" (Mark 9:39).
Perhaps, for the sake of unity between evangelicals and charismatics, we leaders have been hesitant to echo Christ' warning against blasphemy of the Spirit. But we should not think doing so will bring division. Most non-charismatics do not even come close to blasphemy. They wisely remain silent, instead of talking against the manifestations of the Spirit. At worst, they simply propagate their view that the gifts have passed away without condemning those who believe differently.
But there appears to be a vocal segment of anti-charismatic leaders who arrogantly speak against the gifts of the Holy Spirit. (Of course they claim only to be speaking against charismatic leaders, not the Holy Spirit. But after listening to their scathing accusations I can't tell the difference.)
I met two Mormon missionaries who had more fear of God than these charismatic-bashers. They politely shared with my wife and me their view that only Mormons could be saved.
I kindly objected and told them how I was born again. I shared how I was filled with the Holy Spirit.
"How do you know that you have the Holy Spirit?" the head missionary asked.
"I know because I have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues," I answered boldly.
And without hesitation, he questioned, "How can you be sure that your speaking in tongues is from the Holy Spirit and not from an evil spirit?"
I cleverly answered, "You tell me, did I receive the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit?"
The other missionary interrupted, "It is not our place to judge."
"But you say that no one can receive the Holy Spirit without being a Mormon," I baited.
The leader spoke up. "I'm prepared to tell you whether you received the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit!"
"Go, ahead. Tell me."
He paused. He thought for a moment. His mind seemed to drift. Finally, he forced the words out slowly, but almost wishing to keep silent, "You received an evil spirit."
With a boldness not my own, I pointed my finger at him and fired the words, "Jesus said you can blaspheme Him or His Father and still be forgiven, but if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you'll not be forgiven in this age or the age to come! If you're right, then you have nothing to fear; but if your wrong, then you are in danger of eternal damnation!"
The other Mormon jumped in, "I didn't say it." Then he pointed to his friend. "HE SAID IT!"
A couple of minutes elapsed when the leader softly said, "I want to take back my statement." And with humility, he apologized, "Sir, not only should I not have judged you, but I was wrong in my judgment of you. According to my Mormon teaching, you can not have the Holy Spirit. But, I believe, you are the first non-Mormon I've met who has the Holy Spirit."
I wish some fundamentalist would have the same fear of God as these Mormons.
Instead many anti-charismatics have spewed their venom to ministers like me who operate in the gifts of the Spirit and will actually judge our salvation. They will tell others that we are not even saved. I have noticed that when a person vehemently rejects the ministry of the Holy Spirit that eventually they will hate those ministers who operate in the gifts of healing, miracles and casting out demons. They will turn their hatred toward the charismatic ministry into a crusade.

I get many hate emails from these people who are very opposed to the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. Many have told me that they do not even think I am saved. Why? Simply because I heal the sick, cast out demons and speak in tongues. If I would abstain from the gifts of the Spirit, then they would accept me, so it is clear that what they really reject is the Holy Spirit and not me.
On the other hand, I get many that write to me telling me they are afraid that maybe in the past they have blasphemed the Spirit out of ignorance, now they accept the gifts of the Spirit. They do not need to worry, because Jesus was not speaking to those who get carried away by wrong teaching, rather He warns those who have a hateful attitude toward the gifts of the Spirit.I think most people may have simply "grieved" the Holy Spirit, instead of blaspheming Him. To grieve Him is to simply limit what He wants to do because of doubt. But blasphemy involves "hate" not "doubt".




The word "blasphemy" is a term that speaks of damnable heresy, not misjudgment.Many, because of poor teaching, misjudge others— that's forgivable. The Pharisees, on the other hand, went beyond judging to trying to keep others from following Christ. Blasphemy against the Spirit is the absolute, permanent, hateful rejection of the gifts of the Holy Spirit with the motive to keep others from fully following Christ as well as to keep one's position of power. A person who has committed this sin has no desire for repentance, will divide the body of Christ, judge the salvation of others, and will ultimately die in this state.
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kevinbtaylor
Oct 4th 2009, 01:06 AM
The word "blasphemy" is a term that speaks of damnable heresy, not misjudgment.Many, because of poor teaching, misjudge others— that's forgivable. The Pharisees, on the other hand, went beyond judging to trying to keep others from following Christ. Blasphemy against the Spirit is the absolute, permanent, hateful rejection of the gifts of the Holy Spirit with the motive to keep others from fully following Christ as well as to keep one's position of power. A person who has committed this sin has no desire for repentance, will divide the body of Christ, judge the salvation of others, and will ultimately die in this state. :hmm: I got this off of a diffrent website.these are not my words

BadDog
Oct 5th 2009, 12:52 AM
That bit about the Pharisees is intense. I would add that each had a role, and that each was convinced one way or the other about Jesus, to varying degrees. But surely they struggled intensely with choices they would make pertaining to Jesus and how He fit into things, at that crucial juncture in history. I won't say, though, that I have not wronged the Lord any less than than they, through my actions/lack thereof, and choices.
The Pharisees were close-minded to the truth of the gospel. They knew much of the Word, and took pride in that. They needed to be concerned about really knowing the Lord... not knowing about Him:

Jeremiah 9:23, 24 Thus says the LORD: "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, let not the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who practice steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth; for in these things I delight, says the LORD."

Thx,

BD

BadDog
Oct 5th 2009, 01:14 AM
I appreciate the following from kevinbtaylor:

Did Jesus take this slander personally? No. He, in fact, steers their criticism away from Himself and directs their criticism toward the Holy Spirit. He indicates that their judgment, though it seemed targeted against Himself, was really aimed at the Holy Spirit.
"I drive out demons by the Spirit of God," Jesus proclaimed to His accusers. To criticize a miracle from Jesus was equivalent to criticizing a miracle of the Holy Spirit. His power came from the Spirit. [emphasis added]
Insightful comment. I agree wholeheartedly with this.

However, I must object with the teaching that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is related to the gifts of the Spirit. I do not doubt that some have taught things regarding the gifts of the Spirit that are not sound, but that is not the blasphemy of the Spirit!

It was specifically said by Christ that the blasphemy of the Spirit was to claim that the works of Christ were not a result of the Holy Spirit but Satan. The purpose of those works was to proclaim Jesus as the Christ. The blasphemy of the Spirit has nothing to do with rejection of the gifts of the Spirit, but rejection of evidence that points to Christ. If that would include rejection of gifts of the Spirit as exercised in the body-not allowing them to draw oneself to Christ, then there would be some relationship. Otherwise, not. As was pointed out recently, the Pharisees not only refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah, they tried to stop others from receiving Him as their Christ. Jesus Himself called them hypocrites for this and gave several "woes" because of this attitude.

We will disagree with what this means or the ramifications of this statement. And some have said that those today who claim to be speaking in tongues are really being seduced by Satan. I do not think it is appropriate to say such. Based on 1 Corinthians 14, I refuse to say that tongues ceased, though I suspect that they have [for the most part-since their purpose related to the time of Christ], and I do not think that those "speaking in tongues" today are following Satan. Let's just leave it at that.

Now the first point to make is that if someone who claims to be ministering for Christ (as some TV evangelists) or that certain people who claim to be exercising some of the more charismatic gifts are not actually doing so are not blaspheming if they are correct. So that question must be addressed first... and NOT IN THIS THREAD. :P Just making a point. Personally, I refuse to ever debate such topics. Things just get too out of hand - doesn't honor our Lord or serve the body of Christ.

Anyway, I do see the apparent similarity of the idea, but that is not what Jesus was talking about.

The one thing I insist upon is that this can only be committed by unbelievers, because believers do accept Jesus as the Messiah. The evidence that Jesus was the Christ (the Messiah) was clear to those who saw Him perform miracles and signs. They refused to accept that Jesus was the Messiah and hence God's Son. Now believers accept this, so how can they commit this act?

Take care,

BD

webhead
Oct 5th 2009, 02:42 AM
The entire context of Matt chapter 12 is Israel and it's religious leaders rejecting Christ as the Messiah, and has nothing to do with gentiles, or the future gentile churches. The Pharisees blasphemy of the Holy Spirit went hand in hand with it. It happened in the first century with the nation of Israel, which is who Christ always addressed in his ministry, and the only nation he ever preached the Kingdom to. Christ never preached to Gentiles, or reprimanded gentiles for anything, including blasphemy of anything. His message of the Kingdom was only for the nation of Israel, not the gentiles surrounding them, or any where else on earth.

No need to worry about it happening to you here in 21st century America.

Always read scripture in light of scripture, and in it's proper context. Don't take one verse out of an entire chapter, that was preached solely to the nation of Israel and it's leaders, and try to read something into it that does not exist in 21st century America.

ae123
Oct 5th 2009, 05:31 AM
Yeah, Passion of the Christ portrays them as something Jesus came to rectify in leaders and people in general. But still, they had a role to play and they didn't weild so much power for no reason.

Archangel Michael
Oct 6th 2009, 01:20 PM
I agree with The beloved disciple that blasphemy against the spirit is
".........Attributing the Work and Power of the Holy Ghost to the work and power of satan......."
How will a person never get forgiveness for this?
I reckon its because when you do it you offend the holy Ghost, who is THE CONVICTER OF SIN.When you blaspheme him, He will never convict you of your sins and you will die a sinner. Its like burning a bridge and attempting to cross back. IMPOSSIBLE we can say.
The bible says you can not say Jesus is Lord(salvation) without the Holy Spirit.
The bible warns against blaspheming the Holy Ghost for the unbeliever and to the believers we are admonished not to quench/grieve the Holy Ghost by whom we are sealed unto the day of our redemption.:note:

BadDog
Oct 10th 2009, 04:27 PM
I agree with The beloved disciple that blasphemy against the spirit is
".........Attributing the Work and Power of the Holy Ghost to the work and power of satan......."
How will a person never get forgiveness for this?
I reckon its because when you do it you offend the holy Ghost, who is THE CONVICTER OF SIN.When you blaspheme him, He will never convict you of your sins and you will die a sinner. Its like burning a bridge and attempting to cross back. IMPOSSIBLE we can say.
The bible says you can not say Jesus is Lord(salvation) without the Holy Spirit.
The bible warns against blaspheming the Holy Ghost for the unbeliever and to the believers we are admonished not to quench/grieve the Holy Ghost by whom we are sealed unto the day of our redemption.:note:
AM,

This is basically what I have been saying, FYI. I like that last paragraph, BTW.

BD