PDA

View Full Version : Need Advice: Kingdom of Heaven/God?



Jabba
Sep 28th 2009, 10:42 PM
Is there a differance between the Kindom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God?
If so, how?
Currently I think the Kindom of Heaven is where Jesus and God are situated, and the Kingdom of God is actually us Christians, which will come into fullfilment when the new Heaven and Earth arrives at the end of Revelations.
Please help?:hmm:

markedward
Sep 28th 2009, 11:09 PM
There is no difference between the two.

Do a search through the gospels and the epistles, and you'll see that the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven" are described as exactly the same.

Sirus
Sep 29th 2009, 01:11 AM
There are differences in the two.

Do a search through the gospels and the epistles, and you'll see that the "Kingdom of God" is by faith, not seen, and spiritual/heavenly, and the "Kingdom of Heaven" is by works, seen, and of this world/earthy.

ae123
Sep 29th 2009, 01:35 AM
There may be a difference between the two, depending who you ask.:)

It seems to me that they likely have similarities, but too, differences, or they would be called the same. Though, not always are things with differing names, necessarilly, not exactly alike, so you might try reading the gospels and epistles, as suggested by two persons of differing opinions, then decide for yourself, in turn, what may be correct.:hmm:

The Mighty Sword
Sep 29th 2009, 01:54 AM
Jesus came to earth to establish his Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven says Matthew (the Gospel of the Kingdom), who does not say "God" in respect to the Jews who did not mentioned the name of God, out of respect to God... but the "Kingdom of God" is the same as the "Kingdom of Heaven". Only in Matthew the Kingdom is mentioned 55 times, 35 times as the "Kingdom of Heaven"... it is the revolutionary event brought by Jesus, "repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", announces the Baptist, and repeats Jesus (Mat.3:3, 4:17, Mr.1:15).

I would say they are the same.

Steven3
Sep 29th 2009, 01:59 AM
There is no difference between the two.

Do a search through the gospels and the epistles, and you'll see that the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven" are described as exactly the same.

This is correct, and can be proven to be correct by comparing where Jesus retells the same parable or same phrase in different Gospels:


The phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is a Matthewism. It occurs 31x in Matthew and in Matthew only. Matthew only uses "KoG" 5x.
In the parallel verses to "KoH" in Mark and Luke, Mark and Luke write "Kingdom of God".

So why does Matthew use this term? The answer is in the OT. The Kingdom of the Lord is just Israel:



[/URL]1Chron 28:5 And of all my sons (for the Lord has given me many sons) he has chosen Solomon my son to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.
2 Chron 13:8 “And now you think to withstand the kingdom of the Lord in the hand of the sons of David, because you are a great multitude and have with you the golden calves that Jeroboam made you for gods.

But the concept of the kingdom(s) of heaven is global.


(http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Chronicles+28%3A5)Ps 103:19 The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
Dan 2:37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven, has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory
Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’[1]
[1]Or his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him

[URL="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Matthew+3%3A2"] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Daniel+2%3A37)Matt 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

So Kingdom of Heaven doesn't mean, Kingdom in Heaven, it means Kingdom of Heaven, kingdom established by heaven, from heaven, but on earth.

This is also why we pray


Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Not


Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom go, your will be done, in heaven as it is on earth.

;)

Sirus
Sep 29th 2009, 02:12 AM
Jesus came to earth to establish his Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven says Matthew (the Gospel of the Kingdom), who does not say "God" in respect to the Jews who did not mentioned the name of God, out of respect to God... but the "Kingdom of God" is the same as the "Kingdom of Heaven". Only in Matthew the Kingdom is mentioned 55 times, 35 times as the "Kingdom of Heaven"... it is the revolutionary event brought by Jesus, "repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", announces the Baptist, and repeats Jesus (Mat.3:3, 4:17, Mr.1:15).

I would say they are the same.

Niether Jesus or the apostles had any problem saying the name of God to Israel. Read the bible lately? It's simply not true. Not even that they didn't say His name.

John the baptist did not say the kG he said kh -earthly reign- as he prepared the way for Israel's Messiah. The kh was only preached to Israel (Matthew).

When John (the friend of the bridegroom -bestman -wedding) was put in prison Jesus said the time is fulfilled, the kG is at hand, repent AND believe the gospel. Believe the gospel was not said for the kh because the law and the prophets were UNTIL John, since time was fulfilled the kingdom of God was preached. Not before.

kh- poor in spirit
The earthy reign will bring relief

kG- poor
seek righteousness and things will be provided

kh- except your righteousness exceeds the scribes and pharisees you cannot enter the kh

kh- In Mat 25 entrance into the kingdom is based on works to those that had no knowledge of Christ's words that if you do it to them you do it to Him. Clearly not bible believers, this is Christ setting up His earthly reign with mortals, after the elect are gathered in Mat 24. Also, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness in Mat 25.

kG- Entrance is by faith, not works, being born again
In Luke 19 the unprofitable servant is not cast into outer darkness. Why then do Christians use Mat 25 to say if you don't have works you won't be saved?

Much more but there's a few.
Posting similarities does not explain the differences.

Steven3
Sep 29th 2009, 02:28 AM
Hi Sirius

kh- poor in spirit
The earthy reign will bring relief

kG- poor
seek righteousness and things will be provided

kh- except your righteousness exceeds the scribes and pharisees you cannot enter the kh

kh- In Mat 25 entrance into the kingdom is based on works to those that had no knowledge of Christ's words that if you do it to them you do it to Him. Clearly not bible believers, this is Christ setting up His earthly reign with mortals, after the elect are gathered in Mat 24. Also, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness in Mat 25.

kG- Entrance is by faith, not works, being born again
In Luke 19 the unprofitable servant is not cast into outer darkness. Why then do Christians use Mat 25 to say if you don't have works you won't be saved?

Much more but there's a few.

That's an interesting comparison, and shows that Jesus gave slightly different talks the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke), perhaps for slightly different audiences. But to structure the differences between the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain into differences between Matthew's "Kingdom of Heaven" and Luke's "Kingdom of God" can't be done since Luke never uses the phrase KoH. If we want to detect a difference we'd have to look at the 5x Matthew does use Kingdom of God, vs 31x Kingdom of Heaven and ask why here?

Matt 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.
21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

I've yet to hear any particular reason why these 5x KoG, and 31x KoH in the rest of Matthew, but doesn't mean there isn't a reason out there :)

markedward
Sep 29th 2009, 02:46 AM
the "Kingdom of Heaven" is by works, seen, and of this world/earthy.The Kingdom of Heaven is of earth?

That's an oxymoron. Why would Jesus call it the Kingdom of Heaven if it was actually of the world?

Steven3
Sep 29th 2009, 03:23 AM
The Kingdom of Heaven is of earth?

That's an oxymoron. Why would Jesus call it the Kingdom of Heaven if it was actually of the world?

That was my question too :)

Desperaux
Sep 29th 2009, 03:30 AM
There is no difference between the two.

Do a search through the gospels and the epistles, and you'll see that the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven" are described as exactly the same.

I agree---the two are interchangeable.

Sirus
Sep 29th 2009, 05:23 AM
The Kingdom of Heaven is of earth?

That's an oxymoron. Why would Jesus call it the Kingdom of Heaven if it was actually of the world?I'm out of time for the night, so I'll let Steven3 answer


This is also why we pray


Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Not


Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom go, your will be done, in heaven as it is on earth.

;)Has it come yet?

Humble
Sep 29th 2009, 09:28 AM
Kingdom - who is the King in the land?

Who reigns?

Who do you bow to?


There is one Lord

Satan has a Kingdom!

Jesus has a Kingdom

One is flesh

One is Spirit

In the Kingdom of Heaven - Jesus reigns

In the Kingdom of God - Jesus reigns

The Mighty Sword
Sep 29th 2009, 04:10 PM
Niether Jesus or the apostles had any problem saying the name of God to Israel. Read the bible lately? It's simply not true. Not even that they didn't say His name.

John the baptist did not say the kG he said kh -earthly reign- as he prepared the way for Israel's Messiah. The kh was only preached to Israel (Matthew).

When John (the friend of the bridegroom -bestman -wedding) was put in prison Jesus said the time is fulfilled, the kG is at hand, repent AND believe the gospel. Believe the gospel was not said for the kh because the law and the prophets were UNTIL John, since time was fulfilled the kingdom of God was preached. Not before.

kh- poor in spirit
The earthy reign will bring relief

kG- poor
seek righteousness and things will be provided

kh- except your righteousness exceeds the scribes and pharisees you cannot enter the kh

kh- In Mat 25 entrance into the kingdom is based on works to those that had no knowledge of Christ's words that if you do it to them you do it to Him. Clearly not bible believers, this is Christ setting up His earthly reign with mortals, after the elect are gathered in Mat 24. Also, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness in Mat 25.

kG- Entrance is by faith, not works, being born again
In Luke 19 the unprofitable servant is not cast into outer darkness. Why then do Christians use Mat 25 to say if you don't have works you won't be saved?

Much more but there's a few.
Posting similarities does not explain the differences.

I can respect your opinion.

My heart's Desire
Sep 29th 2009, 05:44 PM
I'm out of time for the night, so I'll let Steven3 answer
Has it come yet?In relation to Daniel, I'd say no.

markedward
Sep 29th 2009, 05:58 PM
Weird. In relation to Daniel, I'd say yes.

My heart's Desire
Sep 29th 2009, 06:32 PM
Weird. In relation to Daniel, I'd say yes.
:D as you know I believe it is future, literal and on earth for a specific time frame. Though tempted to continue the train will stop before it derails. ;)

Sirus
Sep 29th 2009, 11:43 PM
The Kingdom of Heaven is of earth?

That's an oxymoron. Why would Jesus call it the Kingdom of Heaven if it was actually of the world?Is their another planet and people in the universe that God has created, not in vain, but to be inhabited? Like man, were they given dominion over all the works of His hands? Did the Son become one of them, overcome, and promise to return there as well? Will the new city descend to their planet and will God also dwell with them? Earth is a part of heaven my friend, and is where God chose to do His work. Do you know of another?

You seem to want to apply (large case H) the definition of a particular place where God resides to the word 'heaven' in the phrase 'kingdom of heaven' and I have to ask why? You can say heaven is such, but we can also say heaven is spiritual and we can say it is the universe. How would you conclude -a particular place where God resides, to the word 'heaven' in the phrase 'kingdom of heaven'?

You say the terms are the same and will admit the kingdom of.....is not fully come yet, so how would a particular place where God resides partially come?

Sirus
Sep 30th 2009, 12:57 AM
Hi Sirius

That's an interesting comparison, and shows that Jesus gave slightly different talks the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke), perhaps for slightly different audiences. But to structure the differences between the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain into differences between Matthew's "Kingdom of Heaven" and Luke's "Kingdom of God" can't be done since Luke never uses the phrase KoH.I didn't say 'different audiences', so I did not structure differences because of this or Luke alone. I know some do so I understand you thinking this way.

Mark only used kG also, so why can't a comparison be done with Luke? Do we not compare other books? Should they in context, not contradict?

I said more than what is in these Sermons. I am used to no one addressing them though. Then people wonder why I will not post differences? :o


If we want to detect a difference we'd have to look at the 5x Matthew does use Kingdom of God, vs 31x Kingdom of Heaven and ask why here?

Matt 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.
21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

I've yet to hear any particular reason why these 5x KoG, and 31x KoH in the rest of Matthew, but doesn't mean there isn't a reason out there :)The kingdom (kh/kG) came first to Israel, not dogs. The forerunner was put in prison and Israel rejected their king. The kh in Christ's rule would not happen yet and the kG was taken from Israel. The kh was not taken from Israel. While the stranger will receive inheritance among Israel as if they are Israel, it is divided amongst Israel first, then divided to Gentiles.

Am I not understanding the question? All of them have things the others don't have. Matthew is very Israel-centric having fulfilled prophecies (spoken by the prophet), interaction with the pharisees, and even has parables the others do not, etc.

Sirus
Sep 30th 2009, 12:59 AM
In relation to Daniel, I'd say no.Yes, assuming you are premil, that's the thing. It's much easier for premil's to see differences than amil's.

Steven3
Sep 30th 2009, 02:44 AM
Hi Sirius :)
Mark only used kG also, so why can't a comparison be done with Luke? Do we not compare other books? Should they not, in context, contradict? In other vocabulary items yes. But we can't establish the difference between "tangerine" and "mandarin" with a writer who solely uses the word "tangerine". That sends us back into Matthew looking for why Matthew has 31x uses of one phrase, 5x use of another.


Am I not understanding the question? All of them have things the others don't have. Matthew is very Israel-centric having fulfilled prophecies (spoken by the prophet), interaction with the pharisees, and even has parables the others do not, etc.Don't think anyone is denying this, and his use of KoH might well be Israel-centric.

The thing is however is in verses where Matthew has KoH, Luke has KoG. So the difference cannot be that enormous. If you can demonstrate a difference from the evidence (31x vs 5x) then I think everyone on the thread will be all ears. I'm just saying that looking at those 31x vs 5x nothing leaps out at me. But by all means go ahead. :)
S

Sirus
Sep 30th 2009, 03:50 AM
Hi Sirius :)In other vocabulary items yes. But we can't establish the difference between "tangerine" and "mandarin" with a writer who solely uses the word "tangerine". That sends us back into Matthew looking for why Matthew has 31x uses of one phrase, 5x use of another.All mandarins are tangerines. :idea:
God created heaven but heaven did not create God. Heaven can be things of the spirit from God but things of the spirit are not God, neither was He created..

Does, "we can't establish the difference between "tangerine" and "mandarin" mean that everything in heaven, of which the earth is His chosen kingdom, is God? Can we not tell the difference? Is it not obvious? The moon that is dead? Dead mass? Pluto? Are they God? Really? Hardly!

Where might I find heaven used in place of God? If you can demonstrate heaven replacing God, I am all ears. By all means go ahead. :)

If one uses both and two others use one, why can't we compare the two to the one that uses both?


The thing is however is in verses where Matthew has KoH, Luke has KoG. So the difference cannot be that enormous. If you can demonstrate a difference from the evidence (31x vs 5x) then I think everyone on the thread will be all ears. I'm just saying that looking at those 31x vs 5x nothing leaps out at me. But by all means go ahead. :)
SDepends on what is being discussed. If you don't think a works based salvation/faith based salvation is an enormous difference, and you don't see any significance to 'the time is fulfilled', 'the law and the prophets were until John', and 'since that time the kingdom of God is preached' I don't know what else to say. Again, no one wants to address evidence while being quick to ask for evidence. :bounce: Go ahead! :)

Matthew addresses Israel and leaves them where Christ did. The kh was "shut up" by the leaders of Israel and the kg was taken from them. The gospel of Matthew is a record of Christ to Israel, not what happened thereafter. The kg continued to be preached to Jew and Gentile.

Steven3
Sep 30th 2009, 04:07 AM
All mandarins are tangerines. :idea: I have no idea, I'm not a greengrocer. The example was premised on not knowing.


God created heaven but heaven did not create God. Heaven can be things of the spirit from God but things of the spirit are not God, neither was He created.Right. But KoH and KoG can still be the same. UK and GB are still the same even the words are different.


Where might I find heaven used in place of God? If you can demonstrate heaven replacing God, I am all ears. By all means go ahead. :)Everywhere in the OT where "heaven" is used with an anthropomorphic quality - "sinned against heaven", and so on, where heaven represents God (and possibly his angels).


If one uses both and two others use one, why can't we compare the two to the one that uses both?We can, you're being asked to do so :)


Again, no one wants to address evidence while being quick to ask for evidence. Go ahead! :)Okay. Which post number? What evidence? I've reviewed the thread and I cannot see any demonstration that 31x KoH are different from 5x KoG in Matthew. And it's not for want of expecting there to be a difference. I'd expect two phrases to have different meaning. But since you're offering to do it, I'm taking you up on your offer, that's all :)

If it's already there it'll only take you a second to paste or link. :hmm:

Sirus
Sep 30th 2009, 04:29 AM
UK and GB are still the same even the words are different.No, they are not the same. Only in your mind are they the same :idea: Same with the kh/kG.

[EDIT]Here, google
"What is the difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain, and England?"


Everywhere in the OT where "heaven" is used with an anthropomorphic quality - "sinned against heaven", and so on, where heaven represents God (and possibly his angels).sinned against heaven is in the NT, and you are correct, there is an and in your sight. They are different.


We can, you're being asked to do so :)have been but you keep saying I should focus on Matthew only.


Okay. Which post number? What evidence? I've reviewed the thread and I cannot see any demonstration that 31x KoH are different from 5x KoG in Matthew. And it's not for want of expecting there to be a difference. I'd expect two phrases to have different meaning. But since you're offering to do it, I'm taking you up on your offer, that's all :)

If it's already there it'll only take you a second to paste or link. :hmm:Try the section you pulled this quote from, which I also said earlier.

Steven3
Sep 30th 2009, 12:11 PM
Hi Sirius :)
Try the section you pulled this quote from, which I also said earlier.Do you mean this:

kh- poor in spirit
The earthy reign will bring relief

kG- poor
seek righteousness and things will be provided

kh- except your righteousness exceeds the scribes and pharisees you cannot enter the kh

kh- In Mat 25 entrance into the kingdom is based on works to those that had no knowledge of Christ's words that if you do it to them you do it to Him. Clearly not bible believers, this is Christ setting up His earthly reign with mortals, after the elect are gathered in Mat 24. Also, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness in Mat 25.

kG- Entrance is by faith, not works, being born again
In Luke 19 the unprofitable servant is not cast into outer darkness. Why then do Christians use Mat 25 to say if you don't have works you won't be saved?

Much more but there's a few.
Posting similarities does not explain the differences. But we've already looked at that and it's just a list of differences between Matthew and Luke.

It isn't a list of differences between 31x KoH in Matthew and 5x KoG in Matthew.

As I said before, I would expect there to be differences, just haven't found them myself, that's why I'm actually genuinely interested in what you think the differences are, otherwise I wouldn't be asking. So please share. :)
God bless
S.

John146
Sep 30th 2009, 09:40 PM
Is there a differance between the Kindom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God?
If so, how?
Currently I think the Kindom of Heaven is where Jesus and God are situated, and the Kingdom of God is actually us Christians, which will come into fullfilment when the new Heaven and Earth arrives at the end of Revelations.
Please help?:hmm:They are the same, as we can see here where the terms are used interchangeably within the same passage and in the same context:

Matt 19
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

In case you think there is somehow a difference between what Jesus is saying in verse 23 compared to verse 24, look at these parallel accounts:

Mark 10
23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 18
24And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Notice that He is saying the same thing in Matthew 19:23, Mark 10:23-24, and Luke 18:24 with the only difference being that Matthew recorded it as "the kingdom of heaven" and the other two recorded it as "the kingdom of God". And the reason for that is that they are one and the same kingdom.

Sirus, if you're reading this, please don't bother responding because we've already had this discussion.

Sirus
Oct 1st 2009, 12:17 AM
Sirus, if you're reading this, please don't bother responding because we've already had this discussion.I won't to you, but I will certainly state my opinion for others.

I do have to point out this error though.
Notice that He is saying the same thing in Matthew 19:23, Mark 10:23-24, and Luke 18:24 with the only difference being that Matthew recorded it as "the kingdom of heaven" and the other two recorded it as "the kingdom of God". And the reason for that is that they are one and the same kingdom.Would be true if it were true that the only difference is that Matthew recorded heaven instead of God. Very misleading. Matthew did not just record kh and not kG he recorded both! In back to back verses! :idea: Strange indeed!


As for what I think about those verses in Matthew that use both terms (Steven3).
hard= kingdom of heaven
impossible= kingdom of God
These are not similar.

Why would Matthew use two distinct words, with two distinct meanings, in conjunction with two distinct words/examples for verification, in back to back verses, if they mean the same thing? Was he confused?

If we believe the word is inspired and inherent, was the Holy Ghost confused?

The word 'how!' is in Mark and Luke but not in Matthew.

Pointing out similarities in the two does not explain the differences. The two, being one torn apart by the sin of man, again to be one, most certainly will have similarities by necessity. They are the eternal kingdom from the millennium on. Throughout scripture we have earthly natural/heavenly spiritual, dead/ alive, death/life, corruptible/incorruptible, blind/see.....etc. This is not some bizarre concept. It's bible basics 101 seen from cover to cover.

Sirus
Oct 1st 2009, 03:19 AM
Hi Sirius :)Do you mean thisYes and No.
Are these the same?
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
I know 'violence' and 'presseth' are the same Greek word. That is not the debate. The debate is, is the same thing being said? What's the context? Is it a recording of the same instance? No in every case. So what did Jesus independently say in Matthew 11?

Now, I know what you are thinking, "you haven't said this in previous post," but I have. You just haven't studied this for three years and don't know it.



It isn't a list of differences between 31x KoH in Matthew and 5x KoG in Matthew.

As I said before, I would expect there to be differences, just haven't found them myself, that's why I'm actually genuinely interested in what you think the differences are, otherwise I wouldn't be asking. So please share. :)Why should it be a list of differences between 31x KoH in Matthew and 5x KoG in Matthew? You haven't answered this question.

Why are you attempting to limit the discussion to Matthew? Why do expect differences in Matthew alone (and there are)? If you are amil it is likely you will not see them. 'Thy kingdom come' is different than kh at hand and kG at hand but both are His. While Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings and ruled the kingdom it was God that ruled. Same with Cyrus. Same with Solomon, however there we have the kingdom of the Lord. That was the closest to the millennial reign of Christ this world has ever known :idea:.

Steven3
Oct 2nd 2009, 05:04 AM
Why should it be a list of differences between 31x KoH in Matthew and 5x KoG in Matthew? You haven't answered this question.For the same reason one can't argue that a US author using "pants" and a British author using "trousers" mean different things. But if a Canadian author says "pants" 31x and "trousers" 5x then its possible that he has a distinction in mind.

Sirus
Oct 2nd 2009, 05:14 AM
but pants and trouser ARE the same!....heaven and God are not. I asked someone, anyone, to show them used interchangeable and no one could. In the kingdoms it is assumed. It is not established by Scripture!

Why won't you answer my question?

Yes and No.
Are these the same?
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
I know 'violence' and 'presseth' are the same Greek word. That is not the debate. The debate is, is the same thing being said? What's the context? Is it a recording of the same instance? No in every case. So what did Jesus independently say in Matthew 11?

Now, I know what you are thinking, "you haven't said this in previous post," but I have. You just haven't studied this for three years and don't know it.

Steven3
Oct 2nd 2009, 05:38 AM
Hi Sirius
but pants and trouser ARE the same!....heaven and God are not. Pants and trousers are the same to whom? FYI where I come from in the UK pants mean underpants, trousers mean pants. This is why we have to compare Matthew with Matthew. Not Matthew with Luke.


You just haven't studied this for three years and don't know it.Just for clarity which of the following have you studied and have conclusions on:


KoH in Matthew vs KoG in Luke
KoG in Matthew vs KoG in Luke
KoH in Matthew vs KoG in Matthew

because I'm somewhat confused about what you've been studying. If it's only 1, then sure it'd be unreasonable to ask you questions about 2 and 3. :kiss: Not trying to push you where you don't want to go old chap :)

Sirus
Oct 2nd 2009, 05:42 AM
You can't answer w/o putting yourself in a pickle.....that was obvious in your first post in the thread.
You focus on trousers and not the discussion "I asked someone, anyone, to show them used interchangeable and no one could. In the kingdoms it is assumed. It is not established by Scripture!"
Can you actually discuss the issue, or not?

Steven3
Oct 2nd 2009, 11:31 AM
Hi Sirius
You focus on trousers and not the discussionI was trying to help you understand how a word study would work.
Can you actually discuss the issue, or not?Yes. We still need to know which of the following have you studied and have conclusions on:


KoH in Matthew vs KoG in Luke
KoG in Matthew vs KoG in Luke
KoH in Matthew vs KoG in Matthew

?

Sirus
Oct 3rd 2009, 12:51 AM
Far more than just those. You forgot Mark ;)
Now, your turn, answer my questions.