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Partaker of Christ
Oct 5th 2009, 12:12 AM
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Given the above text, one needs to be born again BEFORE he can see the Kingdom of God.

Is this 'seeing' a future event, or is it something that happens soon after one is born again?

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

We must first meet and surrender to the King, before we can see and enter His Kingdom.

Steven3
Oct 5th 2009, 03:08 AM
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Given the above text, one needs to be born again BEFORE he can see the Kingdom of God.

Is this 'seeing' a future event, or is it something that happens soon after one is born again?

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

We must first meet and surrender to the King, before we can see and enter His Kingdom.

Christ is careful with his words, so "see" should mean see, "enter" mean enter. I think 3:3 and 3:5 might be saying slightly different but parallel things, rather than just a repeat in different words.

crossnote
Oct 5th 2009, 03:44 AM
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Given the above text, one needs to be born again BEFORE he can see the Kingdom of God.

Is this 'seeing' a future event, or is it something that happens soon after one is born again?


I think now that we are born again (or from above) we have a foretaste and 'see' with spiritual eyes but there will come a time when we see Him face to face.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 6th 2009, 12:37 AM
I think now that we are born again (or from above) we have a foretaste and 'see' with spiritual eyes but there will come a time when we see Him face to face.

I agree with what is said, but to "have a foretaste and 'see' with spiritual eyes", one must first be born again.

I think the point I am trying to make is:
We may often be trying to convince (persuade) unbelievers, about the things of Jesus (like, did He really walk on water, and raise the dead etc), and they will not be persuaded (they do not see the kingdom of God), until they first see the KING Jesus Christ (born again)

Even during the earthly ministry of Jesus, many lives were physically touched by the kingdom of God, but not all who were touched, believed who He was.

webhead
Oct 6th 2009, 01:21 AM
The Biblical Greek might help? Not sure?

εἶδον(see)
1) to see
a) to perceive with the eyes
b) to perceive by any of the senses
c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
d) to see
1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
2) to pay attention, observe
3) to see about something
a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
4) to inspect, examine
5) to look at, behold
e) to experience any state or condition
f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit


2) to know
a) to know of anything
b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
1) of any fact
2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
3) to know how, to be skilled in
c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)


εἰσέρχομαι(enter)
1) to go out or come in: to enter
a) of men or animals, as into a house or a city
b) of Satan taking possession of the body of a person
c) of things: as food, that enters into the eater's mouth


2) metaph.
a) of entrance into any condition, state of things, society, employment
1) to arise, come into existence, begin to be
2) of men, to come before the public
3) to come into life
b) of thoughts that come into the mind

crossnote
Oct 6th 2009, 03:35 AM
I agree with what is said, but to "have a foretaste and 'see' with spiritual eyes", one must first be born again.

I think the point I am trying to make is:
We may often be trying to convince (persuade) unbelievers, about the things of Jesus (like, did He really walk on water, and raise the dead etc), and they will not be persuaded (they do not see the kingdom of God), until they first see the KING Jesus Christ (born again)

Even during the earthly ministry of Jesus, many lives were physically touched by the kingdom of God, but not all who were touched, believed who He was.

I have a little different take. When Christ mention to Nicodemus about one must be born again to see the Kingdom of God, it was not in the context of 'King' Jesus but rather 'Serpent' Jesus hanging on a cross. I believe that it is primarily through the Gospel message preached that one is born again. We as sinners look up to a crucified Savior and as we are healed of our sin-bite, sin's weight is lifted and we are brought into His Kingdom as newborn sons.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 6th 2009, 01:58 PM
I have a little different take. When Christ mention to Nicodemus about one must be born again to see the Kingdom of God, it was not in the context of 'King' Jesus but rather 'Serpent' Jesus hanging on a cross. I believe that it is primarily through the Gospel message preached that one is born again. We as sinners look up to a crucified Savior and as we are healed of our sin-bite, sin's weight is lifted and we are brought into His Kingdom as newborn sons.

Hi again Crossnote!

Again I cannot disagree with you about the serpent, but I am not 'specifically' discussing how one is born again.
My point is that one cannot see the kingdom of God, until (unless) they are born again.

I am not from the USA, so I cannot say "this is so" for you, but would it be a truth to suggest that, (some of) the Church is pushing (promoting, selling) Christianity, before (in front of) Jesus Christ?

"If we sell them the cart, they may (or may not) take the horse with them"

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Diolectic
Oct 6th 2009, 03:42 PM
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Given the above text, one needs to be born again BEFORE he can see the Kingdom of God.

Is this 'seeing' a future event, or is it something that happens soon after one is born again?This "seeing" is a comrehension.
Except a man be born again, he cannot comprehend the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is also a future event.
We enter the kingdom of God as we are born from above..

BroRog
Oct 6th 2009, 04:12 PM
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Given the above text, one needs to be born again BEFORE he can see the Kingdom of God.

Is this 'seeing' a future event, or is it something that happens soon after one is born again?

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

We must first meet and surrender to the King, before we can see and enter His Kingdom.

I have considered this interpretation many times and I am attracted to it for a couple of reasons.

Many (including myself) read this passage as if Jesus is preaching to Nicodemus about being born again and his need to be born again. He was telling Nicodemus, I thought, that he must be born again in order to enter the kingdom. Nicodemus had a choice to make if he wanted to enter God's kingdom someday.

However, it's possible that Nicodemus was already born again but didn't know it. Jesus used this opportunity to tell Nicodemus about the concept of being "born again" and to confirm that he was, indeed, already born again. Jesus begins by suggesting that Nicodemus wouldn't be able to recognize and identify the kingdom when he saw it unless he was already born again.

I think verse 2 can be understood as a hint that Nicodemus was able to recognize (see) the kingdom of God at work in Jesus. Nicodemus was able to recognize the activity of God; he was able to identify the works of Jesus as authorized and initiated by God himself. This ability to recognize and identify the kingdom is what Jesus refers to as "see".



Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." (Emphasis mine)
John is writing a Gospel so that his readers might believe in Jesus Christ. One aspect of belief is coming to accept the evidence that God presented to the world that Jesus was indeed the Christ. John includes this event in his Gospel as an illustration of this process in which a man or woman comes to accept the fact that Jesus is the Christ based on the evidence.

Nicodemus came to understand that no one could do these signs unless God was with him. Nicodemus was willing to accept the evidence God presented to him. Since he was willing and able to accept this evidence for what it is, Jesus attributes this ability to the fact that Nicodemus was born again.



Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see (recognize?) the kingdom of God."

The ability for a person to overcome deep set prejudices and preconceived notions is an activity of the Spirit within a person. Had the Spirit not been working with Nicodemus he may never have accepted the evidence presented to him. Many Pharisees were stubbornly refusing to believe that the signs were from God and attributed the signs to the devil instead. But Nicodemus bravely accepted the truth.

JohnDB
Oct 6th 2009, 04:34 PM
OK guys...time for a bit of an anthropology lesson here along with the greek text to match.

Jesus in John 3:3 doesn't say "born again" in Greek...he was saying "Born from above" in Aramaic/Hebrew.

In the past history of Israel God had several people, from birth, that were specially chosen to be servants of His. Moses, Isaac, Sampson, Samuel, Jeremiah, John the Baptist and etc...and it was apparent to the Jews that this was specifically the case.

So the term, "born from above" was used to denote this special group of people that were created by God for specific purposes of His in this world.

gennëthë anöthen is transliterated Greek for specifically that expression...it isn't born again as Nicodemus asks because he was confused as to what Jesus was saying and intending...that much of a person's life is spent being sinful and not sin free as the scriptures usually describe those that were "born from above" Nicodemus was asking how a person could live their life over again with a new purpose in mind and heart...when God had already directed their steps on the path that they now lived in.

Jesus goes on to explain that a person must be born of WATER and Spirit. Now most people understand that Spirit refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but few ever comprehend the meaning of WATER.

Water to the Apostles and Jesus was always a type/symbol of Law. There was water that came down from heaven in the form of Dew or Rain and that Flowed...otherwise known as living water...Water that was stored for very long became brakish and undrinkable. (much like the waters at meribah) Water that came from a spring in a well was a gift of the earth.
All water, after it had been used by men, flowed into the sea...and the sea was always associated with sin and chaos...never rest.
These are just a few examples of water and the symbols that they intended...

crossnote
Oct 7th 2009, 03:08 AM
Hi again Crossnote!

Again I cannot disagree with you about the serpent, but I am not 'specifically' discussing how one is born again.
My point is that one cannot see the kingdom of God, until (unless) they are born again.

I am not from the USA, so I cannot say "this is so" for you, but would it be a truth to suggest that, (some of) the Church is pushing (promoting, selling) Christianity, before (in front of) Jesus Christ?

"If we sell them the cart, they may (or may not) take the horse with them"

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Being from the USA or wherever shouldn't be a determiner of what God's Word is saying. Some of us read history and doctrine that went on before the USA, some of us even read the bible!!:o
But I take your point, many Churches' idea of evengelism today is to get out into the community and tell them about....their Church! Ugh. Oh well:B
Some will say 'you first must be regenerate/born anew before one can have faith' others will say 'you must first believe in order to be born again'. I hold that the gift of faith and regeneration occur simultaneously both a work of God's Word (specifically the Word of Christ in the Gospel message) and His Spirit.