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herald
Oct 24th 2009, 12:28 AM
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaidens in those days will I pour out My Spirit." Joel 2:28,29.

After Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit, He went about healing the sick and casting out demons by the power (dunamis, from which we get the word dynamite) of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His disciples, "And behold I send the promise of My Father upon you, but tarry in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (dunamis) from on high." Lu 24:49. This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:14-21. The Apostle Paul would later say, "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in man's wisdom, but in the power of God." 1 Cor 2:4,5.

Jesus said, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mk 16:17,18.

Paul instructed the church, "Now concerning Spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant...For to one is given by the Spirit the Word of wisdom; to another the Word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues..." 1 Cor 12:1-11.

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries...he that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church...wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also...wherefore my brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." 1 Cor 14:1-40.

Some limit the speaking in tongues to merely preaching in other languages. First of all, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural - not talents or abilities. It would be blasphemous to say, that, sinners who speak more than one language are operating in the Holy Spirit. If one comes to the Word of God with a teachable heart, he will readily see in these passages that speaking and praying in tongues is to be part of the worship service.

Jude 20,21 tells us, "But ye beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keeping yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

"For precept must be upon precept; line upon line; here a little and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to His people. To whom He said, "This is the rest and the refreshing: yet they would not hear." Isa 28:10-12. Will you hear?

Butch5
Oct 24th 2009, 12:40 AM
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaidens in those days will I pour out My Spirit." Joel 2:28,29.

After Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit, He went about healing the sick and casting out demons by the power (dunamis, from which we get the word dynamite) of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His disciples, "And behold I send the promise of My Father upon you, but tarry in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (dunamis) from on high." Lu 24:49. This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:14-21. The Apostle Paul would later say, "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in man's wisdom, but in the power of God." 1 Cor 2:4,5.

Jesus said, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mk 16:17,18.

Paul instructed the church, "Now concerning Spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant...For to one is given by the Spirit the Word of wisdom; to another the Word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues..." 1 Cor 12:1-11.

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries...he that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church...wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also...wherefore my brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." 1 Cor 14:1-40.

Some limit the speaking in tongues to merely preaching in other languages. First of all, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural - not talents or abilities. It would be blasphemous to say, that, sinners who speak more than one language are operating in the Holy Spirit. If one comes to the Word of God with a teachable heart, he will readily see in these passages that speaking and praying in tongues is to be part of the worship service.

Jude 20,21 tells us, "But ye beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keeping yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

"For precept must be upon precept; line upon line; here a little and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to His people. To whom He said, "This is the rest and the refreshing: yet they would not hear." Isa 28:10-12. Will you hear?

The context of the book is unity. Paul is reprimanding them because they have division within the church. Speaking in tongues was part of the service in the first century church, however, Paul says that the gifts were to end.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 24th 2009, 04:25 AM
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries...he that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church...wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also...wherefore my brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." 1 Cor 14:1-40.



· He speaks not to men because he is speaking a foreign language, and if there is no one to interpret, no one can understand him, and only God can understand him.


· In the Bible, the word “mysteries” does not refer to anything mysterious, as we understand the word in our age. In the study of languages, English in particular, we know that the word "mystery" does not have the connotation it has in our day till about the 1500s.



Here, the word mysteries just refers to some revelation that God had not revealed up to that point in time. (Dan 2:28, Dan 2:47, Dan 2:29, 1 Cor 4:1, Eph 1:9, 1 Cor 2:12-14, Col 4:3-4).



Mystery simply refers to a truth or prophecy of God not yet revealed to mankind up to that point in time.



Dan 2:27 Daniel answered the king and said, "No wise men, enchanters, magicians, or astrologers can show to the king the mystery that the king has asked,
Dan 2:28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream and the visions of your head as you lay in bed are these:



Dan 2:47 The king answered and said to Daniel, "Truly, your God is God of gods and Lord of kings, and a revealer of mysteries, for you have been able to reveal this mystery."



Here, mysteries of God refer to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God's revealed plan of salvation to mankind, not revealed till that time of writing.


1Co 4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.


Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ


Col 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison--
Col 4:4 that I may make it clear, which is how I ought to speak.



This meaning is totally consistent with the verses that follow, as God speaks some knowledge, teaching or revelation in a foreign language, through the one with the gift of tongues, that has up to that point, before the Bible was completed, not yet been revealed.

crossnote
Oct 24th 2009, 04:34 AM
The context of the book is unity. Paul is reprimanding them because they have division within the church. Speaking in tongues was part of the service in the first century church, however, Paul says that the gifts were to end.

Where does Paul say the gifts will end?

crossnote
Oct 24th 2009, 04:43 AM
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaidens in those days will I pour out My Spirit." Joel 2:28,29.

After Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit, He went about healing the sick and casting out demons by the power (dunamis, from which we get the word dynamite) of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His disciples, "And behold I send the promise of My Father upon you, but tarry in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (dunamis) from on high." Lu 24:49. This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:14-21. The Apostle Paul would later say, "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in man's wisdom, but in the power of God." 1 Cor 2:4,5.

Jesus said, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mk 16:17,18.

Paul instructed the church, "Now concerning Spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant...For to one is given by the Spirit the Word of wisdom; to another the Word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues..." 1 Cor 12:1-11.

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries...he that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church...wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also...wherefore my brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." 1 Cor 14:1-40.

Some limit the speaking in tongues to merely preaching in other languages. First of all, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural - not talents or abilities. It would be blasphemous to say, that, sinners who speak more than one language are operating in the Holy Spirit. If one comes to the Word of God with a teachable heart, he will readily see in these passages that speaking and praying in tongues is to be part of the worship service.

Jude 20,21 tells us, "But ye beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keeping yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

"For precept must be upon precept; line upon line; here a little and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to His people. To whom He said, "This is the rest and the refreshing: yet they would not hear." Isa 28:10-12. Will you hear?

I was just listening to John Piper speaking of Martyn Lloyd Jones' belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate event from regeneration and/or receiving the Spirit. Lloyd-Jones also claims it works hand in hand with revival of the Church. I held this view as a babe in the Lord then drifted into a more 'sophisticated' approach but have of late been re-embracing it.

Here is an example of it being a separate event to already established believers.

And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
(Act 4:31)

Desperaux
Oct 24th 2009, 05:03 AM
The context of the book is unity. Paul is reprimanding them because they have division within the church. Speaking in tongues was part of the service in the first century church, however, Paul says that the gifts were to end.

When did he say they would end? Date, please?

Butch5
Oct 24th 2009, 12:55 PM
Where does Paul say the gifts will end?

1 Corinthians 13:8

Quickened
Oct 24th 2009, 01:12 PM
1 Corinthians 13:8

Thanks Butch! I've been combing a couple of threads where i ran across this because couldnt locate the exact verse

ZAB
Oct 24th 2009, 01:22 PM
1 Corinthians 13:8

:D Here we go again! Haha, I love you brother ;)

Z.

ZAB
Oct 24th 2009, 01:40 PM
He speaks not to men because he is speaking a foreign language, and if there is no one to interpret, no one can understand him, and only God can understand him.

This is simply not true. He is not speaking TO MEN (of any language), the verse makes that very clear... Rather, he is speaking to God.

1 Cor 14: 2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him..." There's no getting around that.

Paul also says later, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful..." If Paul was praying in an earthly language, then why would he say this? Again, later he says, "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding, and I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also" (1 Cor 14:14-15). Why would Paul admonish us to do BOTH, if only ONE was for others around us? If only ONE was beneficial? It's because the prayer of tongues is for the individual believer, whereas the GIFT of tongues (coupled with it's interpretation) is for the edifying of the body, and is equivalent to prophesy for edification, exhortation and comfort (1 Cor 14:3).


In the Bible, the word “mysteries” does not refer to anything mysterious, as we understand the word in our age. In the study of languages, English in particular, we know that the word "mystery" does not have the connotation it has in our day till about the 1500s.
Again, this is not entirely accurate. The word "mystery" is the Greek word "musterion" and means, "that which is known only to the initiated". This is the word Jesus used when comparing the disciples and the multitudes:

Matt 13:10-12 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."


that's my :2cents:,

Z.

ZAB
Oct 24th 2009, 01:49 PM
I was just listening to John Piper speaking of Martyn Lloyd Jones' belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate event from regeneration and/or receiving the Spirit. Lloyd-Jones also claims it works hand in hand with revival of the Church. I held this view as a babe in the Lord then drifted into a more 'sophisticated' approach but have of late been re-embracing it.

Here is an example of it being a separate event to already established believers.

And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
(Act 4:31)

Not to mention:

Eph 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

There are incidences in Acts where people were saved (baptism of John), and yet not filled with the Holy Ghost. Here's one:

Acts 19:2-6 "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

Also, Gal 3:13-14 makes a distinction between the two events:

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: [in order] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; [in order] that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Here we see justification was preparatory for the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Thus, they are not the same experience. They are separate and distinct.

Z.

watchinginawe
Oct 24th 2009, 02:07 PM
The context of the book is unity. Paul is reprimanding them because they have division within the church. Speaking in tongues was part of the service in the first century church, however, Paul says that the gifts were to end.Butch5, the context of the epistle had turned to things that the Corinthians had specific questions about. Paul offers very specific teaching regarding those things. I Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: Regarding Spiritual gifts (which is not what the thread title is about), Paul again teaches and offers the "more excellent way". Paul would not have us ignorant, but rather he wants us to learn: I Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. When we believe that the spiritual gifts have ceased for the Church here in this time, we become willingly ignorant of his teaching.

We need to be careful of what we rest our belief in. When we say "this isn't for us" then it really isn't.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Oct 24th 2009, 02:16 PM
I'll offer one last thing for the thread (I don't plan on participating). The last recorded water baptism in the book of Acts happens before the last recorded time where folks speak in tongues upon the Holy Ghost falling. Additionally, many more recorded manifestations of Spiritual gifts are given even up to the final chapter: Acts 28:8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

So we never see a "winding down" of the importance of the Holy Spirit in ministry and for believers in the book of Acts.

God Bless!

notuptome
Oct 24th 2009, 02:25 PM
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaidens in those days will I pour out My Spirit." Joel 2:28,29.
This promise is to the Jews and not a promise to the Gentiles. Evidenced in Acts 2


After Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit, He went about healing the sick and casting out demons by the power (dunamis, from which we get the word dynamite) of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His disciples, "And behold I send the promise of My Father upon you, but tarry in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (dunamis) from on high." Lu 24:49. This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:14-21. The Apostle Paul would later say, "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in man's wisdom, but in the power of God." 1 Cor 2:4,5.
Was Jesus ever without the Holy Spirit??
The dunamis is also a term used to describe the gospel. Rom 1:16


Jesus said, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mk 16:17,18.
This text is unrelieable. There is considerable evidence that it is not in the original manuscripts and was added by an over zealous scribe.


Paul instructed the church, "Now concerning Spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant...For to one is given by the Spirit the Word of wisdom; to another the Word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues..." 1 Cor 12:1-11.

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries...he that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church...wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also...wherefore my brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." 1 Cor 14:1-40.
Is this evidenced in the charasmatic church today? The orderly part.


Some limit the speaking in tongues to merely preaching in other languages. First of all, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural - not talents or abilities. It would be blasphemous to say, that, sinners who speak more than one language are operating in the Holy Spirit. If one comes to the Word of God with a teachable heart, he will readily see in these passages that speaking and praying in tongues is to be part of the worship service.

Sinners who study and learn multiple languages are not claiming the "gift" of tongues. Acts 2 Peter spoke and those present heard in their native tongues not special unknown languages. Supernatural gifts can be talents or abilitues given under special circumstances to forward the gospel.


Jude 20,21 tells us, "But ye beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keeping yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."
Study of the word of God under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is profitable for every believer.


"For precept must be upon precept; line upon line; here a little and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to His people. To whom He said, "This is the rest and the refreshing: yet they would not hear." Isa 28:10-12. Will you hear?
Will you be like Israel and carried off into captivity? Israel was apostate and not obeying the word of God when this prophecy was given. Sennacherib's tongue is the tongue through which the stammering lips would speak.

Isaiah asks who shall God make to understand doctrine? Those who are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. Understanding is to be received from the Lord by study of His word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 24th 2009, 02:39 PM
1 Corinthians 13:8When does this happen. No doubt it will happen, but when?

I guess the Lord enables the Christian's who understand that this will happen in the due time... so while many, many Christian's are used and manifest tongues an any of the other gifts of the Holy Spirit, many will continue to say... nope, not of God.

It's very dangerous territory to walk cause all you have to do is speak out against the Holy Spirit and this is an unforgivable sin (Mt 12:32). Even the Pharisees only "heard" of Jesus healing and they committed blasphemy when they said He healed by satan:

Mt 12:22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-23508e)] mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-23510f)] the ruler of the demons.”

Dangerous ground dude, many Christian's are used by the Holy spirit as the Lord manifests, and they speak in tongues, heal, speak prophesy, or any of the 9 gifts and then other Christian's say.... nope, not of God.

Jesus Himself gave us ALL the Great Commission, not just the Apostles.... read it. It doesn't say do this but without empowerment to heal, speak tongues, tread on serpents... the Great Commission is clear and to those who have faith that the Lord can use to empower their belief in Jesus... will do all that.

Butch5
Oct 24th 2009, 03:45 PM
Not to mention:

Eph 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

There are incidences in Acts where people were saved (baptism of John), and yet not filled with the Holy Ghost. Here's one:

Acts 19:2-6 "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

Also, Gal 3:13-14 makes a distinction between the two events:

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: [in order] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; [in order] that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Here we see justification was preparatory for the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Thus, they are not the same experience. They are separate and distinct.

Z.

Zab, I don't believe this promise is the "infilling" of the Holy Spirit. Can you show me where Abraham was ever promised the "infilling" of the Spirit?

Butch5
Oct 24th 2009, 03:46 PM
Thanks Butch! I've been combing a couple of threads where i ran across this because couldnt locate the exact verse

You are quite welcome.

Butch5
Oct 24th 2009, 04:46 PM
Butch5, the context of the epistle had turned to things that the Corinthians had specific questions about. Paul offers very specific teaching regarding those things. I Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: Regarding Spiritual gifts (which is not what the thread title is about), Paul again teaches and offers the "more excellent way". Paul would not have us ignorant, but rather he wants us to learn: I Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. When we believe that the spiritual gifts have ceased for the Church here in this time, we become willingly ignorant of his teaching.


We need to be careful of what we rest our belief in. When we say "this isn't for us" then it really isn't.

God Bless!

Yes Paul does address specific issues that were asked of him. However, he is also rebuking them for their behavior. Consider what he tells them in regards to the Lord's supper and Spiritual gifts, he starts out, should I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1 Corinthians 11:17-18 ( KJV )
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

After this Paul rebukes them for their abuse of the communion. He then moves on to Spiritual gifts. Apparently they were ignorant because Paul says he would not have them ignorant. It is obvious that they were abusing the communion and the gifts and that is why he gives them instruction. After he sets them straight about one gift being just as important as the next (each member is a part of the body) he says, I will show you a more excellent way. More excellent than what? More excellent than the gifts. What is the more excellent way? Love. No matter what gifts you have, without love they mean nothing. Then in chapter 13:4 he begins to tell them what love "doesn't" do. Apparently the Corinthians were doing the opposite of the things Paul mentions here.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 ( KJV )
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Apparently they were not being patient, were not kind, did envy, boast, were puffed up and so on. Then in verse 8 he tells them why they should seek love. Love never ends, these gifts however will end. So if you don't have love you have nothing. To put it in modern English I believe Paul is saying, Yo guys, these gifts you have, you think you are so cool and you try to see who has the best gift? Well, I'm telling you this, love is the best gift, these others that you think are so cool are going away, they will end. If you don't seek love over these gifts in the end you have nothing.
Then after he gives his examples he draws a contrast between the gifts that would end with that which will remain. In verse 8 he says that prophecy, knowledge, and tongues will cease, prophecy and knowledge will cease with the coming of the perfect. In verse 13 He says that faith hope and love will continue. They will continue after prophecy, tongues and knowledge cease. They will continue after the coming of the perfect. Many say the coming of the perfect is the coming of Christ. If this is so that means that after Christ returns faith, hope, and love will remain. Our faith is in the promises of God. After those promises are realized why would we still need faith? If I have placed my faith in the promise that God who raised up Jesus from the dead will also raise my mortal body and then realize that promise at the resurrection, what need have I of faith? Once the promise is realized it is no longer faith.

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV )
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Likewise, Hope. Let us see what Paul means by hope.

Romans 8:17-25 ( KJV )
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Paul is clear that once the thing hope for is realized, it is no longer hope. Once Christ is realized there will be no need for hope. Paul says were are saved in this hope, I think we can agree that this is a reference to the return of Christ.

I think I have been careful in resting my belief on the words of the apostle himself.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 24th 2009, 04:55 PM
I was just listening to John Piper speaking of Martyn Lloyd Jones' belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate event from regeneration and/or receiving the Spirit. Lloyd-Jones also claims it works hand in hand with revival of the Church. I held this view as a babe in the Lord then drifted into a more 'sophisticated' approach but have of late been re-embracing it.

Here is an example of it being a separate event to already established believers.

And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
(Act 4:31)

This is what happened to me.. I knew nothing about the Baptism in the Holy Ghost as a young believer.. until certain people confronted me about it.. just like Paul did those believers.. I told them no.. I had not heard about it.. they told me that it was something that Jesus does... Baptizing you with the HOly Ghost and with Fire.. they laid hands on me and I began to speak in an unknown tongue..

It was an empowerment and I became much more bolder in my Witness for Jesus the Christ...

He saved me Feb 3 1994 and this took place a few months later.. at no time during those days.. had I lost my Salvation.. and my Salvation was not dependent on whether I 'spoke' in an unknown tongue.. Had the Lord Called me home in that time Frame.. I would be with Him.. Salvation is not dependent on whether one speaks in an unknown tongue..

It is True. .Jesus does Baptize you with the Holy Ghost.. and you will speak in an unknown tongue... It is Him who does the Baptizing.. in the Holy Ghost...

I do not use 'speaking in' in an unknown tongue as a 'point to make myself more spiritual than another'.. or elevating myself as someone who is 'better' than another.. because of that.. there are groups out there that do that.. that is 'spiritual pride'... I use the Gift as the Lord leads me.. and its to 'edification'.. not for tearing down...

Frances
Oct 24th 2009, 05:01 PM
When did he say they would end? Date, please?

'Tongues' will not cease before Jesus returns to earth, at the earliest. (date unknown)

Butch5
Oct 24th 2009, 05:07 PM
When does this happen. No doubt it will happen, but when?

I guess the Lord enables the Christian's who understand that this will happen in the due time... so while many, many Christian's are used and manifest tongues an any of the other gifts of the Holy Spirit, many will continue to say... nope, not of God.

It's very dangerous territory to walk cause all you have to do is speak out against the Holy Spirit and this is an unforgivable sin (Mt 12:32). Even the Pharisees only "heard" of Jesus healing and they committed blasphemy when they said He healed by satan:

Mt 12:22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-23508e)] mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-23510f)] the ruler of the demons.”

Dangerous ground dude, many Christian's are used by the Holy spirit as the Lord manifests, and they speak in tongues, heal, speak prophesy, or any of the 9 gifts and then other Christian's say.... nope, not of God.

Jesus Himself gave us ALL the Great Commission, not just the Apostles.... read it. It doesn't say do this but without empowerment to heal, speak tongues, tread on serpents... the Great Commission is clear and to those who have faith that the Lord can use to empower their belief in Jesus... will do all that.

Well, we have had this discussion before, I have given you the Scriptures and my understanding of them. I think the case I have made is strong and fits the apostle's words. As for the unforgivable sin, I don't believe that it includes one who mistakes the Spirits work, I think it is for the hard hearted, the one who rejects Christ. If my position is wrong, I don't think God considers it the unpardonable sin. The Pharisees rejected Christ and claimed his miracles were from Satan. I have not rejected Christ, I don't think God condemns one who has understood the Scriptures incorrectly.

Also, Keep in mind,

Revelation 13:11-14 ( NIV )
Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

The same sign that Elijah did.


Revelation 16:13-14 ( NIV )
Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. <A id=endofbody>
They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.


Revelation 19:19-20 ( NIV )
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Let me ask you a question. If the gifts are around and the miraculous signs and wonders, how is a Christian going to know whether the sign is from God or not? We see demons doing the same sign that Elijah did.

divaD
Oct 24th 2009, 06:33 PM
Well, we have had this discussion before, I have given you the Scriptures and my understanding of them. I think the case I have made is strong and fits the apostle's words. As for the unforgivable sin, I don't believe that it includes one who mistakes the Spirits work, I think it is for the hard hearted, the one who rejects Christ. If my position is wrong, I don't think God considers it the unpardonable sin. The Pharisees rejected Christ and claimed his miracles were from Satan. I have not rejected Christ, I don't think God condemns one who has understood the Scriptures incorrectly.



This is pretty much how I reason these things as well. I notice, when it comes to discussions like these, that Pharisees are brought into the picture a lot of the time, and that some of us are apparently like what the Pharisees were like in this regard. How could that even be true? The Pharisees rejected Christ period. Just because some of doubt the experiences of modern day Charismatics, I fail to see how this would make us like Pharisees. We don't reject Christ. We don't claim Christ isn't God. We don't disbelieve what was recorded in Scripture, in relation to the miracles and healings that took place, and that were documented in the word of God. So, how could we even remotely be like the Pharisees, when it comes to spiritual discussions, such as this thread? And finally, how could this even be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? How can anyone blaspheme the Holy Spirit, when they don't even reject Christ?

Desperaux
Oct 24th 2009, 10:24 PM
This is what happened to me.. I knew nothing about the Baptism in the Holy Ghost as a young believer.. until certain people confronted me about it.. just like Paul did those believers.. I told them no.. I had not heard about it.. they told me that it was something that Jesus does... Baptizing you with the HOly Ghost and with Fire.. they laid hands on me and I began to speak in an unknown tongue..

It was an empowerment and I became much more bolder in my Witness for Jesus the Christ...

He saved me Feb 3 1994 and this took place a few months later.. at no time during those days.. had I lost my Salvation.. and my Salvation was not dependent on whether I 'spoke' in an unknown tongue.. Had the Lord Called me home in that time Frame.. I would be with Him.. Salvation is not dependent on whether one speaks in an unknown tongue..

It is True. .Jesus does Baptize you with the Holy Ghost.. and you will speak in an unknown tongue... It is Him who does the Baptizing.. in the Holy Ghost...

I do not use 'speaking in' in an unknown tongue as a 'point to make myself more spiritual than another'.. or elevating myself as someone who is 'better' than another.. because of that.. there are groups out there that do that.. that is 'spiritual pride'... I use the Gift as the Lord leads me.. and its to 'edification'.. not for tearing down...

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/thumbsup3.gif Exactly!

Desperaux
Oct 24th 2009, 10:25 PM
'Tongues' will not cease before Jesus returns to earth, at the earliest. (date unknown)

That is correct! :pp

watchinginawe
Oct 24th 2009, 11:37 PM
Then in verse 8 he tells them why they should seek love. Love never ends, these gifts however will end. So if you don't have love you have nothing. To put it in modern English I believe Paul is saying, Yo guys, these gifts you have, you think you are so cool and you try to see who has the best gift? Well, I'm telling you this, love is the best gift, these others that you think are so cool are going away, they will end.Paul is basically teaching the above. However, you are reading into the passage that ? mark. I have even seen it written into some Bibles. But you have it right in that it is love that will remain. But then you come to a wrong conclusion in the following.
If you don't seek love over these gifts in the end you have nothing.
Then after he gives his examples he draws a contrast between the gifts that would end with that which will remain. In verse 8 he says that prophecy, knowledge, and tongues will cease, prophecy and knowledge will cease with the coming of the perfect. In verse 13 He says that faith hope and love will continue. They will continue after prophecy, tongues and knowledge cease. They will continue after the coming of the perfect.That is an incoherent reading of that passage. In no wise does Paul teach that after the coming of the perfect and after tongues, prophecy, and knowledge cease; that faith, hope, and love will continue. It just isn't there and makes your teaching incorrect. Paul says in verse 12 and 13:

I Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Butch, faith hope and charity abide now. Charity is the greatest of these because it alone continues after we see face to face, after we know even as we are known. Faith and hope will no longer be applicable then. But now abideth faith, hope, and charity, becuase we see through a glass, darkly.
Many say the coming of the perfect is the coming of Christ. If this is so that means that after Christ returns faith, hope, and love will remain. Our faith is in the promises of God. After those promises are realized why would we still need faith? If I have placed my faith in the promise that God who raised up Jesus from the dead will also raise my mortal body and then realize that promise at the resurrection, what need have I of faith? Once the promise is realized it is no longer faith.
...
I think I have been careful in resting my belief on the words of the apostle himself.I believe that you have based your investigation and belief of what "that which is perfect is come" means upon a faulty reading of the passage. But then again, it wouldn't be the first time we disagreed on some aspect of scripture.

God Bless!

Slug1
Oct 25th 2009, 12:01 AM
Well, we have had this discussion before, I have given you the Scriptures and my understanding of them. I think the case I have made is strong and fits the apostle's words. As for the unforgivable sin, I don't believe that it includes one who mistakes the Spirits work, I think it is for the hard hearted, the one who rejects Christ. If my position is wrong, I don't think God considers it the unpardonable sin. The Pharisees rejected Christ and claimed his miracles were from Satan. I have not rejected Christ, I don't think God condemns one who has understood the Scriptures incorrectly. But we do know the scriptures and when the Holy Spirit manifests the Word informs us that the unforgivable sin is to call any manifestation of the Holy Spirit... is of satan and not of God.

So, today... when you hear a person speak in tongues or a person pray over another and the person prayed over is healed... or the Lord manifests and speaks prophesy whether it's through a single person or one speaks in tongues and another translates what the Lord is speaking... what do you do??? Hide behind your interpretation of scripture, do you say it's not God... what do you do?

Wait, I know... it don't happen anymore....my question is, WHEN it happens today. Don't say, it don't happen cause YOU say it don't happen cause it does every day all around you.

For a person who "says" it don't happen anymore, then what do you say when it does??

Everyone "rejects" Christ until the moment they don't anymore... they then can receive salvation by believing and professing Christ as their Savior. So it's not rejection of Christ is the unforgivable sin, if it was... I rejected Christ as my Savior till I was 26 or so, if rejecting Christ is unforgivable, then I'm still not saved cause I did it for over half my life. Based on scripture many will blasphemy Christ Himself and then guess what, they are forgiven the moment they believe. Only the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiven. If a person dies in their rejection of Christ then they get judged by Christ and we know (through scripture) that anyone who doesn't profess Christ, Christ will not profess them to God the Father either. Judged as a sinner, sure... but as an unforgiven sinner prior to death... no, cause anytime prior to death they can accept Jesus... unless the Holy Spirit manifested and they said it was of satan. Then they cannot even be saved prior to death.

Hide behind your interpretation if you want. It's not gonna save you from this mistake. Jesus said we'd know Him and He gave us a gift called discernment cause the enemy does imitate... so are you saying ALL manifestations that happen are imitation... cause many on this board have testified about the Holy Spirit manifesting... you saying to their testimonies.... what? No, Not Likely, Not God, what??? What do you say to all on this board who testify of the Holy Spirit manifesting?

Why do I have a picture in my head of a person with their fingers in their ears, saying... LA LA LA LA LA LA LA :lol:

Allot of "I think/I don't think" and "I believe/I don't believe" in your posts throughout the various threads on this topic... when the Holy Spirit manifest's... ya need to think and believe correctly. Your interpretation isn't gonna stop the Holy Spirit from enabling Christian's from accomplishing what Jesus told them to do. It may cause you to not be enabled cause the Lord will protect you (as He did me) from doing the unforgiveable sin, cause it seems that's exactly what you'd do if the Holy Spirit manifested and someone spoke in tongues infront of you.




Also, Keep in mind,

Revelation 13:11-14 ( NIV )
Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

The same sign that Elijah did.


Revelation 16:13-14 ( NIV )
Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. <A id=endofbody>
They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.


Revelation 19:19-20 ( NIV )
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Let me ask you a question. If the gifts are around and the miraculous signs and wonders, how is a Christian going to know whether the sign is from God or not? We see demons doing the same sign that Elijah did.Butch, if all the gifts have ended as you reason, then how do you accomplish the task of the Great Commission that Christ told us to do?

Why would a person want to short change the task and limit the instructions?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2009, 01:38 AM
But we do know the scriptures and when the Holy Spirit manifests the Word informs us that the unforgivable sin is to call any manifestation of the Holy Spirit... is of satan and not of God.

So, today... when you hear a person speak in tongues or a person pray over another and the person prayed over is healed... or the Lord manifests and speaks prophesy whether it's through a single person or one speaks in tongues and another translates what the Lord is speaking... what do you do??? Hide behind your interpretation of scripture, do you say it's not God... what do you do?

Wait, I know... it don't happen anymore....my question is, WHEN it happens today. Don't say, it don't happen cause YOU say it don't happen cause it does every day all around you.

For a person who "says" it don't happen anymore, then what do you say when it does??

Everyone "rejects" Christ until the moment they don't anymore... they then can receive salvation by believing and professing Christ as their Savior. So it's not rejection of Christ is the unforgivable sin, if it was... I rejected Christ as my Savior till I was 26 or so, if rejecting Christ is unforgivable, then I'm still not saved cause I did it for over half my life. Based on scripture many will blasphemy Christ Himself and then guess what, they are forgiven the moment they believe. Only the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiven. If a person dies in their rejection of Christ then they get judged by Christ and we know (through scripture) that anyone who doesn't profess Christ, Christ will not profess them to God the Father either. Judged as a sinner, sure... but as an unforgiven sinner prior to death... no, cause anytime prior to death they can accept Jesus... unless the Holy Spirit manifested and they said it was of satan. Then they cannot even be saved prior to death.

Hide behind your interpretation if you want. It's not gonna save you from this mistake. Jesus said we'd know Him and He gave us a gift called discernment cause the enemy does imitate... so are you saying ALL manifestations that happen are imitation... cause many on this board have testified about the Holy Spirit manifesting... you saying to their testimonies.... what? No, Not Likely, Not God, what??? What do you say to all on this board who testify of the Holy Spirit manifesting?

Why do I have a picture in my head of a person with their fingers in their ears, saying... LA LA LA LA LA LA LA :lol:

Allot of "I think/I don't think" and "I believe/I don't believe" in your posts throughout the various threads on this topic... when the Holy Spirit manifest's... ya need to think and believe correctly. Your interpretation isn't gonna stop the Holy Spirit from enabling Christian's from accomplishing what Jesus told them to do. It may cause you to not be enabled cause the Lord will protect you (as He did me) from doing the unforgiveable sin, cause it seems that's exactly what you'd do if the Holy Spirit manifested and someone spoke in tongues infront of you.

Butch, if all the gifts have ended as you reason, then how do you accomplish the task of the Great Commission that Christ told us to do?

Why would a person want to short change the task and limit the instructions?

First of all, I have not seen anyone perform any miraculous signs. I have seen God heal through other people, but I have not seen a man walk down the street healing all those who came to him, as they did in the NT time. As for speaking in tongues, I have given Paul's explanation and purpose for tongues, is it you contention that Paul was wrong?

As for prophecy, I can tell immediately if a prophecy was from the Lord or not. Not through discernment, but through the Scriptures.

As for rejecting Christ, I did not say the unforgivable sin was rejecting Christ. I said that the Pharisees had rejected Christ and claimed that He performed miracles by the power of Satan. And that there was a difference between someone rejecting Christ and claiming His miracles were the product of Satan and a person who is following Christ and misunderstanding the Scriptures.

Now, you said I kept saying I believe. I have given Scripture to support my claim. I have not seen a sound Biblical argument for the continuation for the gifts. You have present testimony, not Scripture. And you did not answer my questions. The apostle John said that the beast would perform miraculous signs, even calling down fire from heaven, just as Elijah did. How are we to know the difference if Christians are doing miraculous signs as well as the beast?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2009, 01:56 AM
Paul is basically teaching the above. However, you are reading into the passage that ? mark. I have even seen it written into some Bibles. But you have it right in that it is love that will remain. But then you come to a wrong conclusion in the following.That is an incoherent reading of that passage. In no wise does Paul teach that after the coming of the perfect and after tongues, prophecy, and knowledge cease; that faith, hope, and love will continue. It just isn't there and makes your teaching incorrect. Paul says in verse 12 and 13:

I Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Butch, faith hope and charity abide now. Charity is the greatest of these because it alone continues after we see face to face, after we know even as we are known. Faith and hope will no longer be applicable then. But now abideth faith, hope, and charity, becuase we see through a glass, darkly.I believe that you have based your investigation and belief of what "that which is perfect is come" means upon a faulty reading of the passage. But then again, it wouldn't be the first time we disagreed on some aspect of scripture.

God Bless!

Yes, they abide now. look at the contrast. Let's read it without Paul's examples.



Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

He says prophecies, knowledge and tongues will cease, faith, hope, and love remain.

When Paul is writing there is prophecy, knowledge, tongues, faith, hope, and love. Three of these will cease, three will remain.



watchinginawe---Butch, faith hope and charity abide now. Charity is the greatest of these because it alone continues after we see face to face, after we know even as we are known. Faith and hope will no longer be applicable then.

Please explain how they will no longer be applicable.

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2009, 02:47 AM
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. Charity alone is mentioned as never failing. That is important when we get to the last verse when charity is given as the greatest. It is really quite simple, it is because charity never faileth. But you insist on adding to the passage something it doesn't even hint at.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.These abide currently, before that which is perfect comes.

He says prophecies, knowledge and tongues will cease, faith, hope, and love remain. When Paul is writing there is prophecy, knowledge, tongues, faith, hope, and love. Three of these will cease, three will remain.Nope. Not even by the most liberal reading does Paul say that. That is pure invention to bolster some argument that what Paul was referring to as coming was not our perfection or the coming of the Lord (really the same thing). If one simply reads the epistle this becomes obvious.

Even form Paul's introduction Paul teaches on the coming of the Lord:

I Corinthians 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Already Paul establishes what was being waited for in verse 7, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul also establishes the source of true unity which is God, the One who enriches us, equiping us with what we need to establish us and keep us (individually and the Church) until the coming of our Lord.

Paul mentions it again in Chapter 4. I am going to concatanate a portion of the Chapter 13 passage to this for illustration:

I Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
...
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
...
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul moves directly from his appeal to charity in Chapter 13 into the teaching regarding Spiritual gifts in Chapter 14. But Paul does not leave us hanging on what he was discussing regarding "that which is perfect" to come. After concluding his teaching on Spiritual gifts (teaching is what cures ignorance, which Paul would not have them ignorant of Spiritual gifts), Paul greatly expands on the theme of the coming of the Lord in Chapter 15. Paul proclaims the Gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ as past events. But then Paul moves to what is to come again even as he reveals mysteries to us. Paul explains how the imperfect will give way to the perfect (completion), the corruptible will give way to the incorruptible. It is the same theme as that in Chapter 13 and the same teaching as Paul introduced in the first of the epistle (Chapter 1 v. 7):

I Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
...
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


The teaching of the coming of the Lord is prominent all through the epistle. There isn't some mysterious other thing in Chapter 13 that Paul is telling the Church to wait for. When that which is perfect comes it means exactly that and not some obscure reference to the canon of scripture. We will be perfected in eternity with God.

God Bless!

Slug1
Oct 25th 2009, 04:21 AM
You also have to ask yourself, why would Paul spend all that time explaining the proper use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit... only to say... by the way, they ended.

So did he waste all his and their time with that instruction and then say... ummm, now that you know the proper use, HAHA... they're ended anyway, so don't worry about all I "just" told you :rolleyes: :lol:

Why didn't he just cut to the chase and say... these gifts that you Corinthians abuse... stop abusing them cause they've ended.

Think about it.

They are not ended and just cause a person hasn't seen or experienced any of the gifts, read through this whole board and you'll see many testimonies of the gifts in action.

Another "clue" that they are not ended... cause we read the instructions that Paul gave. Remember, the Living Word of God isn't what God "said", the Bible is what God is "saying". So, today... the Lord is STILL instructing us of the proper use of the Gifts and is also warning us of their end, not that they have ended since Jesus has not returned yet.

Why is the Lord providing Christian's with testimony of how He has worked in their lives as they experience manifestations of the Holy Spirit... only to have other Christians who have never experienced a manifestation ignore such testimony?

I've testified and people give me scripture and their interpretations... OK. While they give their interpretations the Lord is giving me and other Christian's testimony of the Holy Spirit manifesting.

So, are the interpretations correct or wrong? Are those testifying crazy or not? Are the manifestations of God or imitation of the enemy?

Did I mention that it's kinda dumb for Paul to instruct the Corinthian's in one breath about the use of the Gifts only to cancel that in the next breath and tell them that what he just said.... to ignore it cause the gifts have ended.

:hmm:

Slug1
Oct 25th 2009, 04:26 AM
How are we to know the difference if Christians are doing miraculous signs as well as the beast?The gift of discernment is a way... 1 Cor 12:10

:P

kay-gee
Oct 25th 2009, 04:32 AM
If "when the perfect comes" was in reference to The Lord, then Paul would have simply said "when The Lord comes" as he does in every other mention of this event in the NT.

The perfect in this verse is the final completed word of God. Gods word is perfect and YOU wILL be judged according to it. (Rev 20:12) So why not just get that straight off the bat.

Also. The coming of the Lord is going to be the literal mother of all super natural events. If ever there was a time that tongues would go into overdrive rather than cease, it would then, considering man with his hundreds of human languages will be coming face to face with Jesus and thousands of angels. Something to think about.

all the best...

Desperaux
Oct 25th 2009, 05:06 AM
If "when the perfect comes" was in reference to The Lord, then Paul would have simply said "when The Lord comes" as he does in every other mention of this event in the NT.

That is opinion only. Why should we pick apart the language and the choice of expression that was inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself? Are you that well-acquainted with Paul, who was blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ with an abundance of revelation, that you would know what he should or would have said?

Every born again, Spirit-filled believer knows by the revelation of the Spirit that He meant that the perfect to come is Jesus Christ and His Kingdom.


The perfect in this verse is the final completed word of God. Gods word is perfect and YOU wILL be judged according to it. (Rev 20:12) So why not just get that straight off the bat.That, of course is not revealed in His Word anywhere. It is laughable to use Revelation 20:12 to argue. It has nothing to do with the written Word of God, the bible!

Revelation 20:12
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.


Also. The coming of the Lord is going to be the literal mother of all super natural events. If ever there was a time that tongues would go into overdrive rather than cease, it would then, considering man with his hundreds of human languages will be coming face to face with Jesus and thousands of angels. Something to think about.Man's view. Not God's. We won;t need any of the Kingdom-building tools given to the Church when the Kingdom comes! We will already have come into the Kingdom. Why would we need them then? We will know and be known--completely!

crossnote
Oct 25th 2009, 05:15 AM
1 Corinthians 13:8

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
(1Co 13:8)

All this so far is saying that these will in the future pass away.

but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
(1Co 13:10)

this gives a further clue...'when the perfect comes'. And what may that be?!

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1Co 13:12)

Voila! This in it's natural context is our face to face encounter with Jesus.

p.s. going back up to v8, if the gifts have ceased at this time then so has knowledge!

stupes
Oct 25th 2009, 02:48 PM
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
(1Co 13:8)

All this so far is saying that these will in the future pass away.

but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
(1Co 13:10)

this gives a further clue...'when the perfect comes'. And what may that be?!

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1Co 13:12)

Voila! This in it's natural context is our face to face encounter with Jesus.

p.s. going back up to v8, if the gifts have ceased at this time then so has knowledge!

We've been through this on another thread. But I said the same thing about knowledge. But the answer given is that it is referring to the gift of knowledge. Though no gift is mentioned. Just gnosis is used. And Paul speaks in the first person when he says "I will be known as I am known" - but he speaks in the first person at the beggining of Chapter 13 - so this literary tool is consistent and he is clearly not referring to only himself at the beginning of 13 - as he is not referrring to only himself in v. 8

Slug1
Oct 25th 2009, 03:37 PM
I have not seen a sound Biblical argument for the continuation for the gifts. You have present testimony, not Scripture. Why is it an argument... allow the Holy Spirit to flow freely and experience the Holy Spirit in action. I'm telling you, the Holy Spirit will not move if the eye's, ears, and mind will call foul and credit satan... the Lord will protect His children even from themselves. The Holy Spirit will give you, as He does many other Christians "testimony", to relay to others if only you allow Him to do so. Ya just have to open your heart, close your eye's, ears, and mind and let the Holy Spirit flow.

As for testimony... I read this the other day, I was led to this scripture:

John 3:11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

As for scripture to support the continuation of the gifts... again, why would Paul explain to us the proper use in one breath and then say they stopped in the next?

Either He was wrong in explaining to us the proper use (kinda a huge waste of time if the gifts don't work), or there is a reason for us to know the proper use and be able to identify the "improper" use... why? Is it cause the gifts haven't ended and satan will also imitate the gifts and we need to know how to ID (Discern) when there is imitation going on in a church... I've seen the vids on Youtube and watch waves of people falling to the ground in a mass of emotional hysteria... all except the cameramen... the enemy imitates but this doesn't mean the Lord's Spirit has stopped manifesting as well. The Holy Spirit manifests and all is in specific order (no emotional hysteria or chaos) and we know this proper order cause Paul explained it to us all.

Again, why explain this to us only to then tell us....uhhh, never mind!

I can't imagine Paul taking all that time explaining the gifts for us all to understand and then yell out.... PSYCH! Kidding! :idea: :lol:

Butch5
Oct 25th 2009, 05:00 PM
The gift of discernment is a way... 1 Cor 12:10

:P

What about those who wolud not have that gift?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2009, 05:03 PM
crossnote---Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
(1Co 13:8)

All this so far is saying that these will in the future pass away.

but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
(1Co 13:10)

this gives a further clue...'when the perfect comes'. And what may that be?!

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1Co 13:12)

Voila! This in it's natural context is our face to face encounter with Jesus.



What is your evidence?


crossnote---p.s. going back up to v8, if the gifts have ceased at this time then so has knowledge!

That is correct, knowledge would cease.

Desperaux
Oct 25th 2009, 05:23 PM
What about those who wolud not have that gift?


Those who do not have that gift of the discerning of spirits will rely on those who do. No man is an island--we all need each other and each others' gifts, so that Jesus is manifest wholly in a group.

It is a gift that is used in the building and edifying of the Church. Everyone has at least one gift to use to build up the Church and aid in its function.

Butch5
Oct 25th 2009, 05:25 PM
Slug1---Why is it an argument... allow the Holy Spirit to flow freely and experience the Holy Spirit in action. I'm telling you, the Holy Spirit will not move if the eye's, ears, and mind will call foul and credit satan... the Lord will protect His children even from themselves. The Holy Spirit will give you, as He does many other Christians "testimony", to relay to others if only you allow Him to do so. Ya just have to open your heart, close your eye's, ears, and mind and let the Holy Spirit flow.

Jesus didn't have any problem moving on Paul when his eyes, ears, and mind were crying foul.

You want me to believe that the Holy Spirit will raise the dead, heal the lame and the blind, cleanse the leper, etc. and yet will not manifest himself to a misguided Chrstian?


Slug1---As for testimony... I read this the other day, I was led to this scripture:

John 3:11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

As for scripture to support the continuation of the gifts... again, why would Paul explain to us the proper use in one breath and then say they stopped in the next?

Either He was wrong in explaining to us the proper use (kinda a huge waste of time if the gifts don't work), or there is a reason for us to know the proper use and be able to identify the "improper" use... why? Is it cause the gifts haven't ended and satan will also imitate the gifts and we need to know how to ID (Discern) when there is imitation going on in a church... I've seen the vids on Youtube and watch waves of people falling to the ground in a mass of emotional hysteria... all except the cameramen... the enemy imitates but this doesn't mean the Lord's Spirit has stopped manifesting as well. The Holy Spirit manifests and all is in specific order (no emotional hysteria or chaos) and we know this proper order cause Paul explained it to us all.

Again, why explain this to us only to then tell us....uhhh, never mind!

I can't imagine Paul taking all that time explaining the gifts for us all to understand and then yell out.... PSYCH! Kidding! :idea: :lol:


First, Paul did not tell us, he told the Corinthians how to use the gifts. The reason is quite simple. Paul did not say the gifts had ended, he said they would end. So, until the time would come for them to end those at the church in Corinth needed to know how to use them.

Here is the problem, you want me to believe something that contradicts Scripture. Setting aside "the Perfecct" since the issue is not clear, let's look at Scripture that is perfectly clear. I've gone to Young's Literal Translation because it gives a more accurate rendering of this passage



Acts 8:14-19 ( YLT )
And the apostles in Jerusalem having heard that Samaria hath received the word of God, did send unto them Peter and John,
who having come down did pray concerning them, that they may receive the Holy Spirit,—
for as yet he was fallen upon none of them, and only they have been baptized—to the name of the Lord Jesus;
then were they laying hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And Simon, having beheld that through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Spirit is given, brought before them money,
saying, ‘Give also to me this authority, that on whomsoever I may lay the hands, he may receive the Holy Spirit.’

Notice Lukes choice of words, through the laying on of the hands of the apostles the Holy Spirit "IS" given. I don't believe that any of the 12 or Paul are alive today, how then would one receive these gifts?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2009, 05:27 PM
Charity alone is mentioned as never failing. That is important when we get to the last verse when charity is given as the greatest. It is really quite simple, it is because charity never faileth. But you insist on adding to the passage something it doesn't even hint at.These abide currently, before that which is perfect comes.Nope. Not even by the most liberal reading does Paul say that. That is pure invention to bolster some argument that what Paul was referring to as coming was not our perfection or the coming of the Lord (really the same thing). If one simply reads the epistle this becomes obvious.

Even form Paul's introduction Paul teaches on the coming of the Lord:

I Corinthians 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Already Paul establishes what was being waited for in verse 7, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul also establishes the source of true unity which is God, the One who enriches us, equiping us with what we need to establish us and keep us (individually and the Church) until the coming of our Lord.

Paul mentions it again in Chapter 4. I am going to concatanate a portion of the Chapter 13 passage to this for illustration:

I Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
...
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
...
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul moves directly from his appeal to charity in Chapter 13 into the teaching regarding Spiritual gifts in Chapter 14. But Paul does not leave us hanging on what he was discussing regarding "that which is perfect" to come. After concluding his teaching on Spiritual gifts (teaching is what cures ignorance, which Paul would not have them ignorant of Spiritual gifts), Paul greatly expands on the theme of the coming of the Lord in Chapter 15. Paul proclaims the Gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ as past events. But then Paul moves to what is to come again even as he reveals mysteries to us. Paul explains how the imperfect will give way to the perfect (completion), the corruptible will give way to the incorruptible. It is the same theme as that in Chapter 13 and the same teaching as Paul introduced in the first of the epistle (Chapter 1 v. 7):

I Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
...
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


The teaching of the coming of the Lord is prominent all through the epistle. There isn't some mysterious other thing in Chapter 13 that Paul is telling the Church to wait for. When that which is perfect comes it means exactly that and not some obscure reference to the canon of scripture. We will be perfected in eternity with God.

God Bless!

I'm going to put our conversation on hold for a short time, I have found some information that I would like to research before continuing.

Desperaux
Oct 25th 2009, 05:33 PM
Jesus didn't have any problem moving on Paul when his eyes, ears, and mind were crying foul.

You want me to believe that the Holy Spirit will raise the dead, heal the lame and the blind, cleanse the leper, etc. and yet will not manifest himself to a misguided Chrstian?

You need to desire Him, not repel Him. As in Paul's case, he needed salvation, which He received willingly when Jesus revealed Himself miraculously--He didn't need much more showing than that to receive the impartation of the Holy Spirit.


First, Paul did not tell us, he told the Corinthians how to use the gifts. The reason is quite simple. Paul did not say the gifts had ended, he said they would end. So, until the time would come for them to end those at the church in Corinth needed to know how to use them.Yes, and so do we. Obviously many of us are just a babyish spiritually as the Corinthian church was.


Here is the problem, you want me to believe something that contradicts Scripture. Setting aside "the Perfecct" since the issue is not clear, let's look at Scripture that is perfectly clear. I've gone to Young's Literal Translation because it gives a more accurate rendering of this passage


Acts 8:14-19 ( YLT )
And the apostles in Jerusalem having heard that Samaria hath received the word of God, did send unto them Peter and John,
who having come down did pray concerning them, that they may receive the Holy Spirit,—
for as yet he was fallen upon none of them, and only they have been baptized—to the name of the Lord Jesus;
then were they laying hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And Simon, having beheld that through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Spirit isgiven, brought before them money,
saying, ‘Give also to me this authority, that on whomsoever I may lay the hands, he may receive the Holy Spirit.’

Notice Lukes choice of words, through the laying on of the hands of the apostles the Holy Spirit "IS" given. I don't believe that any of the 12 or Paul are alive today, how then would one receive these gifts?It is through the laying on of hands of any Spirit-filled believer that the Holy Spirit may come. We are responsible to God to make disciples for Him, and that includes making sure people receive the empowerment of the Holy Ghost so they can be free in Christ and free to serve Him without any hindrance.

What Jesus began with His twelve, He carries on today with us. Praise Him!

Butch5
Oct 25th 2009, 05:41 PM
Slug1---You also have to ask yourself, why would Paul spend all that time explaining the proper use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit... only to say... by the way, they ended.

So did he waste all his and their time with that instruction and then say... ummm, now that you know the proper use, HAHA... they're ended anyway, so don't worry about all I "just" told you :rolleyes: :lol:

Why didn't he just cut to the chase and say... these gifts that you Corinthians abuse... stop abusing them cause they've ended.

Think about it.

Because they hadn't ended yet. They were to end in the future from the writing of this letter. So, until they ended the Corinthians needed to know how to use them.


Slug1---They are not ended and just cause a person hasn't seen or experienced any of the gifts, read through this whole board and you'll see many testimonies of the gifts in action.

Another "clue" that they are not ended... cause we read the instructions that Paul gave. Remember, the Living Word of God isn't what God "said", the Bible is what God is "saying". So, today... the Lord is STILL instructing us of the proper use of the Gifts and is also warning us of their end, not that they have ended since Jesus has not returned yet.

Why is the Lord providing Christian's with testimony of how He has worked in their lives as they experience manifestations of the Holy Spirit... only to have other Christians who have never experienced a manifestation ignore such testimony?

I think part of the problem is that what you are calling the gifts are not the same as the gifts in the NT. As I said I have seen people healed, I have not seen one who can heal at will. Jesus and the apostles healed those who came to them. I have not seen anyone today that can do this. I believe God will heal people, whether someone prays for that healing or lays hands on the sick, or the sick is anointed with oil. However, that is not the gifts of healing of the NT. The apostles did not pray and then wait to see if someone was healed, they said, in the name of Jesus Christ arise, get up, walk, etc and they did. That is the Spiritual gift of healing.

Have you ever seen or had someone who was prayed for by someone with the gift of healing that wasn't healed?


Slug1---I've testified and people give me scripture and their interpretations... OK. While they give their interpretations the Lord is giving me and other Christian's testimony of the Holy Spirit manifesting.

So, are the interpretations correct or wrong? Are those testifying crazy or not? Are the manifestations of God or imitation of the enemy?

I don't know because I have not seen the manifestations. I do know the Scriptures are clear on how to tell.


Slug1---Did I mention that it's kinda dumb for Paul to instruct the Corinthian's in one breath about the use of the Gifts only to cancel that in the next breath and tell them that what he just said.... to ignore it cause the gifts have ended.

It's not dumb. The gifts were to end in the future, so the Corinthians needed to know how to use them until the time would come that they would end.

Desperaux
Oct 25th 2009, 05:49 PM
Have you ever seen or had someone who was prayed for by someone with the gift of healing that wasn't healed?

Yes, and I have also seen people healed who was prayed over and had hands laid on them.

Butch5
Oct 25th 2009, 06:19 PM
Yes, and I have also seen people healed who was prayed over and had hands laid on them.

That is my point. After Pentecost when the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit "EVERYONE" they healed was healed. There is no record of them trying to heal someone who was not healed. So, the one who said they had the gift of healing yet had people who were not healed did not have the gift of healing in the NT.


Mark 16:18 ( KJV )
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2009, 06:21 PM
I'm going to put our conversation on hold for a short time, I have found some information that I would like to research before continuing.Fair enough.

God Bless!

Desperaux
Oct 25th 2009, 08:10 PM
That is my point. After Pentecost when the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit "EVERYONE" they healed was healed. There is no record of them trying to heal someone who was not healed. So, the one who said they had the gift of healing yet had people who were not healed did not have the gift of healing in the NT.


Mark 16:18 ( KJV )
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The reason people are not healed is that they lack faith. It hasn't to do with the one carrying the gift, or those who lay hands on people. God is always willing to heal. It is us who are sick who must appropriate the healing.

Those who lay hands on the sick for healing--all of us should be doing that--aren't to blame when healing doesn't some. who says it has to be instantaneous? Even with Jesus, not every healing was instantaneous. Look at the man who was blind in Mark 8:22-26. Jesus had to declare him healed more than once. In other words, He heals in stages also.

It is our job as believers to appropriate that healing that is on offer to us and is there for the taking in our born again and perfect spirits.

Slug1
Oct 25th 2009, 11:07 PM
What about those who wolud not have that gift?We're talking about the Body of Christ, right? The Lord divvies up the gifts so a few in a church will have the gift of discernment.

That is another thing to discern if the Lord is working or if the enemy is working. If the only gift within any specific church that is in operation is tongues... then it's not the Holy Spirit. Cause the Holy Spirit will manifest ALL the gifts in the Body of Christ not JUST a single one... 1 Cor 12:12-31.

ZAB
Oct 25th 2009, 11:15 PM
Zab, I don't believe this promise is the "infilling" of the Holy Spirit. Can you show me where Abraham was ever promised the "infilling" of the Spirit?
Hi...

If you are referring to Gal 3:13-14, I never meant the "blessing of Abraham" was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Rather, the blessing of Abraham is justification by faith. This justification is preparatory for the Holy Ghost baptism. It says, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

In other words... Christ hath redeemed us in His death IN ORDER THAT we might receive the blessing of Abraham (justification by faith) IN ORDER THAT we might receive the promise of the Spirit. All was preparatory, building one upon another.

Z.

Slug1
Oct 25th 2009, 11:21 PM
Notice Lukes choice of words, through the laying on of the hands of the apostles the Holy Spirit "IS" given. I don't believe that any of the 12 or Paul are alive today, how then would one receive these gifts?

1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%2012&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28662d)] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

First, the scripture says... "Now you are the Body of Christ//v27... It's doesn't say, ONLY you Corinthians (they do happen to be "//and members individually// however). So that letter is to the Body of Christ but happened to be first issued in Corinth (individual members). It's not ONLY for the Corinthians, the Word is for ALL of us, every man and women on earth.


You will also notice that the question put to us (as the Body of Christ) is "Are all Apostles", "are all teachers"... etc, etc.

So there are apostels, teachers, prophets, healers etc today. Remember, the Word is the Lord "saying" not "said".

Brother Mark
Oct 25th 2009, 11:22 PM
As I said I have seen people healed, I have not seen one who can heal at will. Jesus and the apostles healed those who came to them. I have not seen anyone today that can do this. I believe God will heal people, whether someone prays for that healing or lays hands on the sick, or the sick is anointed with oil. However, that is not the gifts of healing of the NT. The apostles did not pray and then wait to see if someone was healed, they said, in the name of Jesus Christ arise, get up, walk, etc and they did. That is the Spiritual gift of healing.

I don't think that is the correct definition of a spiritual gift. Jesus had the gift of healing, yet he didn't heal everyone. He only healed when the Father told him to. He didn't heal many in his home town. He went to the pool of Bethesda and healed only one man among a multitude. His disciples had the gift but could not heal the boy that had the demon while Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration.

Do you believe in the gift of evangelism? Does one with that gift will people to get saved? Does a teacher will his disciple to learn? Does one with the gift of service will his service upon others? IMO, saying that one with the gift of healing will heal all through prayer is akin to saying the evangelist will save all who hear him preach.

Slug1
Oct 25th 2009, 11:25 PM
It's not dumb. The gifts were to end in the future, so the Corinthians needed to know how to use them until the time would come that they would end.Recall 1 Cor 12:27... He's addressing the Body of Christ but just happened to be in Corinth at that moment. The Body of Christ... is just that, then and now... so when did Paul "say" they will end?

I completely agree, they will end and the only scripture we have is when the "perfect" returns.

Since many, many Christian's manifest all the gifts these days... that time hasn't happened yet.

ZAB
Oct 25th 2009, 11:33 PM
Recall 1 Cor 12:27... He's addressing the Body of Christ but just happened to be in Corinth at that moment. The Body of Christ... is just that, then and now... so when did Paul "say" they will end?

I completely agree, they will end and the only scripture we have is when the "perfect" returns.

Since many, many Christian's manifest all the gifts these days... that time hasn't happened yet.

Exactly! Whenever we have a "cloudy" verse of Scripture that seems to support a doctrine, what do we do? Well, a wise thing to do would be to examine if these fruits and gifts are ACTUALLY happening or not! Yes, alot of people may be phony, but definitely NOT everyone. If even ONE person was genuinely manifesting such a gift and giving glory to Jesus, that is evidence enough of their continued existence. Why? Because certainly Satan would not be working wonders and giving God the glory, a house divided cannot stand. He surely would not come against his own kingdom.

Z.

Slug1
Oct 25th 2009, 11:35 PM
I don't know because I have not seen the manifestations. I do know the Scriptures are clear on how to tell.When I was fighting the same fight that you do now, I had not seen any either. Like I said, the Lord was protecting me from myself cause at that time in my walk with Christ, if He manifested, I'd have credited what I witnessed to satan. My spiritual eyes an ears were not open.

It was a full year of surrender before He led me to a new church (the one I was in denied the Holy Spirit freedom) and I then experienced the Holy Spirit in action.

Believe me, I was you about 4 years ago. Same lines, same combination of scripture, same argument with the same scripture that I pulled and assembled to fit my opinion in an order that in my mind, made sense. Ya now what my problems was... my "spiritual" eyes were closed so I didn't see what was of Heaven. My "spiritual" ears were closed so I didn't hear what was of Heaven. And I used my logic instead of my heart when seeking Jesus.

That's what the scripture is about that I posted earlier (John 3:11-12).

Four years ago many on this board explained (testified) about their experience with the Holy Spirit and I said all the EXACT same stuff you did. The Holy Spirit was manifesting all around me then, just as He does all around you now.

So, while you continue to say what you say, the Holy Spirit continues to do what He does.

crossnote
Oct 25th 2009, 11:37 PM
What is your evidence?



v.12 is backed up by

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
(1Jn 3:2)

What is the better explanation?

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 01:34 AM
The reason people are not healed is that they lack faith. It hasn't to do with the one carrying the gift, or those who lay hands on people. God is always willing to heal. It is us who are sick who must appropriate the healing.

Those who lay hands on the sick for healing--all of us should be doing that--aren't to blame when healing doesn't some. who says it has to be instantaneous? Even with Jesus, not every healing was instantaneous. Look at the man who was blind in Mark 8:22-26. Jesus had to declare him healed more than once. In other words, He heals in stages also.

It is our job as believers to appropriate that healing that is on offer to us and is there for the taking in our born again and perfect spirits.


That is an easy out. What about raising the dead? As divaD pointed out, are they not raised due to lack of faith? Sorry, I'm not buying that. When the blind man left Jesus was he healed? When the other blind man went a washed in the pool as Jesus told him, was he healed? Yes, he didn't have to wait around to see if he would really be healed. The apostles healed.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 01:38 AM
v.12 is backed up by

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
(1Jn 3:2)

What is the better explanation?

Would you please tie those together? To pull a single verse from 1 John that has nothing to do with the context of 1 Corinthians does not support your claim, unless you can show a link. For instance, if John was speaking of Spiritual gifts, I might be able to accommodate what you have said, however, he was not.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 01:47 AM
When I was fighting the same fight that you do now, I had not seen any either. Like I said, the Lord was protecting me from myself cause at that time in my walk with Christ, if He manifested, I'd have credited what I witnessed to satan. My spiritual eyes an ears were not open.

It was a full year of surrender before He led me to a new church (the one I was in denied the Holy Spirit freedom) and I then experienced the Holy Spirit in action.

Believe me, I was you about 4 years ago. Same lines, same combination of scripture, same argument with the same scripture that I pulled and assembled to fit my opinion in an order that in my mind, made sense. Ya now what my problems was... my "spiritual" eyes were closed so I didn't see what was of Heaven. My "spiritual" ears were closed so I didn't hear what was of Heaven. And I used my logic instead of my heart when seeking Jesus.

That's what the scripture is about that I posted earlier (John 3:11-12).

Four years ago many on this board explained (testified) about their experience with the Holy Spirit and I said all the EXACT same stuff you did. The Holy Spirit was manifesting all around me then, just as He does all around you now.

So, while you continue to say what you say, the Holy Spirit continues to do what He does.

My friend, I know how to tell if a word is from God, He knows I know this, so, if he manifested himself according to Scripture I would know it was Him. I am not hardened against the idea that the gifts are present, He knows this. I simply see in Scripture that the gifts would cease, He also know this. Therefore, all He has to due is manifest and I will know. However, I have not seen Him do this. On the other hand you want me to believe that the gifts continue when it is opposed to what the Scriptures say. You want me to overlook the Scriptures and believe what you say or what others say??? How can I do that?

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 01:52 AM
Recall 1 Cor 12:27... He's addressing the Body of Christ but just happened to be in Corinth at that moment. The Body of Christ... is just that, then and now... so when did Paul "say" they will end?

I completely agree, they will end and the only scripture we have is when the "perfect" returns.

Since many, many Christian's manifest all the gifts these days... that time hasn't happened yet.

Not so my friend, the perfect is not the only indication of when the gifts would end. I gave evidence from Luke in another post. Luke said that the Holy Spirit is given through the laying on of the apostles hands, Therefore that would indicate that the perfect would come by the death of the last apostle. The completion of the Christian faith would also come by the death of the last apostle.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 02:01 AM
I don't think that is the correct definition of a spiritual gift. Jesus had the gift of healing, yet he didn't heal everyone. He only healed when the Father told him to. He didn't heal many in his home town. He went to the pool of Bethesda and healed only one man among a multitude. His disciples had the gift but could not heal the boy that had the demon while Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration.

Do you believe in the gift of evangelism? Does one with that gift will people to get saved? Does a teacher will his disciple to learn? Does one with the gift of service will his service upon others? IMO, saying that one with the gift of healing will heal all through prayer is akin to saying the evangelist will save all who hear him preach.

It is the supernatural gifts that ceased, not the natural. You mention the boy with the demon, this was before the holy Spirit was bestowed on the apostles. I am not saying someone with the gift of healing should heal everyone, I am saying that everyone they claim to have healed should be healed. They did not pray over someone and then stand back to see if they would be healed, they just healed. This is the NT gift of healing. I don't know of a single incident after the Holy Spirit came that someone was not healed that an apostle attempted to heal. Paul said that the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. His rebuke of the Corinthians also indicates that tongues was under the control of the individual. I don't see any reason not to suspect that the rest of the gifts weren't under the control of the individual.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 02:11 AM
1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%2012&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28662d)] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

First, the scripture says... "Now you are the Body of Christ//v27... It's doesn't say, ONLY you Corinthians (they do happen to be "//and members individually// however). So that letter is to the Body of Christ but happened to be first issued in Corinth (individual members). It's not ONLY for the Corinthians, the Word is for ALL of us, every man and women on earth.


You will also notice that the question put to us (as the Body of Christ) is "Are all Apostles", "are all teachers"... etc, etc.

So there are apostels, teachers, prophets, healers etc today. Remember, the Word is the Lord "saying" not "said".

Sorry, I have to disagree with you here. I believe this is why there is so much confusion in the church today. The letter was written to the Corinthians and pertained to the Corinthians. There is doctrine in the letter and that doctrine can be applied to Christians of all time. However, I believe it is a big mistake to read the letter as though it was written to us. How many pages of debate have there been regarding this issue? A lot. I believe it is because we don't read the Scriptures the way the were written. If as you say all of Scripture applies to us today, let me make a suggestion, let's apply all of it. That means that we should be able to go and sit down in a den of rattlesnakes, kick our feet up, and down a bottle or two of cyanide and have no ill effects, are those signs also still active?

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 02:12 AM
My friend, I know how to tell if a word is from God, He knows I know this, so, if he manifested himself according to Scripture I would know it was Him. I am not hardened against the idea that the gifts are present, He knows this. I simply see in Scripture that the gifts would cease, He also know this.

So which is it then, are they present or are they ceased?


Therefore, all He has to due is manifest and I will know. However, I have not seen Him do this. So due to this, the gifts have ceased?


On the other hand you want me to believe that the gifts continue when it is opposed to what the Scriptures say. But you just said that you are not hardened against the gifts... then you need to seek God and ask Him why you have not experienced them. I did, took a year and the Lord pulling me away from a church and a denomination that denied the Holy Spirit freedom... but he answered my prayer in a life changing experience. Similar to Saul's (Paul's) experience.

I reread the various quotes and you're pushing and pulling yourself at the same time based on the words you write. You're setting yourself up for failure and on one sentence show that you are open to the Lord manifesting and then in the next sentence say (again) they they ceased. So if you want God to show you the truth, ya need to stop tossing up that "due to scripture they ceased" line. Either they have, and the Lord can't possibly manifest or won't or they have not and He can and will.... IF you open your heart and stop saying they've stopped based on "your" terping of scripture.

Despite what you say, the Lord is manifesting through many Christians all around you and they may or may not give testimony. Obviously the reason many don't give testimony is cause those Christian's who have not experienced a manifestation usually disregard all testimony even though Jesus Himself explained to M about testimony (John 3:11-12)


You want me to overlook the Scriptures and believe what you say or what others say??? How can I do that?By applying John 3:11-12 as Jesus asked M to do.

They won't cease and if they do as you have said, when is that? As a matter of fact Peter tells us otherwise as he reminds us of what the prophet Joel said... read Acts 2:17-21.

So unless the period that Peter spoke was the "the last days" (which they were not) then this is happening. Not all in that prophecy has happened yet BUT, if you say that the signs and gifts have ended, then none of that prophesy can happen today.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 02:16 AM
Sorry, I have to disagree with you here. I believe this is why there is so much confusion in the church today. The letter was written to the Corinthians and pertained to the Corinthians. There is doctrine in the letter and that doctrine can be applied to Christians of all time. However, I believe it is a big mistake to read the letter as though it was written to us. How many pages of debate have there been regarding this issue? A lot. I believe it is because we don't read the Scriptures the way the were written. If as you say all of Scripture applies to us today, let me make a suggestion, let's apply all of it. That means that we should be able to go and sit down in a den of rattlesnakes, kick our feet up, and down a bottle or two of cyanide and have no ill effects, are those signs also still active?The words are "the body of Christ" so it's was not for only them.

If an evangelist comes to your church and speaks a word to the "Body of Christ" is he/she speaking to only your church or to all churches?

It's like the word the Lord gave me and I posted and have posted for all to read. The word spoke of the city I live in but the Lord ministered to me it was for all.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 02:22 AM
We're talking about the Body of Christ, right? The Lord divvies up the gifts so a few in a church will have the gift of discernment.

That is another thing to discern if the Lord is working or if the enemy is working. If the only gift within any specific church that is in operation is tongues... then it's not the Holy Spirit. Cause the Holy Spirit will manifest ALL the gifts in the Body of Christ not JUST a single one... 1 Cor 12:12-31.

So, does that mean that the church at Rome didn't have the holy Spirit since they only had the gift of Prophecy and no other supernatural gifts.


Romans 1:8-12 ( KJV )
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

Romans 12:5-8 ( KJV )
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

The only supernatural gift this church had was prophecy, which was most likely the gift of the evangelist who founded this church. Notice, no supernatural gifts and no apostles had yet been to this church. Paul said he longed to visit them that "HE" may impart some Spiritual gift. Isn't this just like the account in Act 8, where Phillip had gone to Samaria and many were saved and baptized, yet none received the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came. Phillip could perform the miracles on them, but he couldn't bestow the Spiritual gifts on them, they needed the apostles to come from Jerusalem to do it. When Peter and John got there they prayed, laid their hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 02:23 AM
The words are "the body of Christ" so it's was not for only them.

If an evangelist comes to your church and speaks a word to the "Body of Christ" is he/she speaking to only your church or to all churches?

It's like the word the Lord gave me and I posted and have posted for all to read. The word spoke of the city I live in but the Lord ministered to me it was for all.

How would the word be for all if he is speaking to my church?

Brother Mark
Oct 26th 2009, 02:36 AM
I don't know of a single incident after the Holy Spirit came that someone was not healed that an apostle attempted to heal.

Paul didn't heal himself, nor did he heal Timothy of his stomach's problem.


Paul said that the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. His rebuke of the Corinthians also indicates that tongues was under the control of the individual. I don't see any reason not to suspect that the rest of the gifts weren't under the control of the individual.

They are... as the Spirit gives utterance. Doesn't mean you can just speak it, or prophesy it or heal someone. You can choose to obey or not, because the gift is under your control. Doesn't mean you can will it to happen without the Lord's leading. Evangelism is a supernatural gift. Is there a bigger one supernatural gift than salvation?

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 02:37 AM
How would the word be for all if he is speaking to my church?Cause if he/she is speaking to the Body of Christ, it doesn't matter where he/she is at.

The word I received and posted to the Body of Christ. As time has gone on the Lord sent me 948 miles from home last week to a city just to see how this word is happening and this is just one example. I'm sure this is happening all over as people simply need to get out of the building they call a church and get out on the streets and bring Jesus out to "the church".

Anyway... as I mentioned, close your eyes, ears, and mind, and open your spiritual eyes, ears, and heart and speaking to the Body of Christ makes perfect sense.

When the Holy Spirit speaks through a man or woman it doesn't matter where they're located, which church, which city, which country, whatever language in the world... it's the Holy Spirit and it's spiritual and the word will be for the Body of Christ... that means all who are IN CHRIST.

Not just for the "church" the person happened to be at as a guest speaker.

Body of Christ... all who are in Christ, all over the world. Others may not hear it, or do later by whatever means (audio, TV, book, word of mouth (testimony ;)) etc) but the spiritual effect is in effect.

So if a word is given by the Holy Spirit to a person for their church in their city but the meaning is for the Body of Christ, many many churches will be led to do the same.

Like I said, the Lord sent me south for 948 miles from where I live and I got to see this in effect in a city way far away from me... very humbling!

How did I know this was of God... cause once He told me to go, I was tested financially ( all four tires of my vehicle went bad, my fridge blew up, the bearings and front tires of my other vehicle went out, ummm, that was some of the testing of my finances... wiped out my savings I have that covered the trip) but stuck to what the Lord was telling me to the last second and in that last second He blessed me with all the provision and funds needed and even while away, I was further blessed and didn't even need to use half of what He provided to me.

Just imagine all four tires going bad on a car. I now have all new tires, a new fridge, a new front end to the truck, we did the Lords work 948 miles from my home and I still put money in the bank!

Oh, yes... the Lord manifested in that city as well!!

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 02:47 AM
Slug1---So which is it then, are they present or are they ceased?

I believe they have ceased.



Slug1---So due to this, the gifts have ceased?

No, due to all of the Scripture I have posted.



Slug1---But you just said that you are not hardened against the gifts... then you need to seek God and ask Him why you have not experienced them. I did, took a year and the Lord pulling me away from a church and a denomination that denied the Holy Spirit freedom... but he answered my prayer in a life changing experience. Similar to Saul's (Paul's) experience.

Ask Him why? He has given me the Scriptures, they tell me why I have not received any gifts.

My heart is not hardened against the gifts, I actually wish they were active, but I don't see that in Scripture.


Slug1---I reread the various quotes and you're pushing and pulling yourself at the same time based on the words you write. You're setting yourself up for failure and on one sentence show that you are open to the Lord manifesting and then in the next sentence say (again) they they ceased. So if you want God to show you the truth, ya need to stop tossing up that "due to scripture they ceased" line. Either they have, and the Lord can't possibly manifest or won't or they have not and He can and will.... IF you open your heart and stop saying they've stopped based on "your" terping of scripture.

I am not tossed. I believe the Scriptures are clear. I have provided a vast amount of Scripture to support what I am saying. Do you want me to just ignore all of this Scripture? I have only recently come to the conclusion that the gift have ceased. Previously I had no idea that they would, I had been saved for years thinking all along that the gifts were active. I wonder why God never had me speak in tongues, or heal someone as I was walking down the street. Or maybe walk into a church and give an interpretation of tongues. As I said, I fully believed the gifts were around and active. My heart was open, yet I never received them.

Paul said Prophecy and knowledge would cease with the coming of he perfect.
John said if anyone adds or subtracts from the Prophecy of the book of Revelation God will add to him the plagues or take away his part from the book of life. Luke said that the Holy Spirit is given by the laying on of the hands of the apostles.

That is evidence from three different apostles, am I going to overlook that much evidence???


Slug1---Despite what you say, the Lord is manifesting through many Christians all around you and they may or may not give testimony. Obviously the reason many don't give testimony is cause those Christian's who have not experienced a manifestation usually disregard all testimony even though Jesus Himself explained to M about testimony (John 3:11-12)

By applying John 3:11-12 as Jesus asked M to do.

They won't cease and if they do as you have said, when is that? As a matter of fact Peter tells us otherwise as he reminds us of what the prophet Joel said... read Acts 2:17-21.

So unless the period that Peter spoke was the "the last days" (which they were not) then this is happening. Not all in that prophecy has happened yet BUT, if you say that the signs and gifts have ended, then none of that prophesy can happen today.


The Lord may be manifesting His Spirit, however, I don't believe He is giving the gifts to individuals. Regarding Peter's quote of Joel, Peter did say it was in his time, that would make his day the last days. The writer of Hebrews also refers to his time as the last days.

Hebrews 1:1-2 ( KJV )
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Just because the gifts have ceased doesn't mean the prophecy cannot come to pass. It would just mean that there is no new prophecy.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 02:55 AM
Brother Mark--- Paul didn't heal himself, nor did he heal Timothy of his stomach's problem.

That w not my point. Did Paul try to heal himself and fail or to heal Timothy and fail?



They are... as the Spirit gives utterance. Doesn't mean you can just speak it, or prophesy it or heal someone. You can choose to obey or not, because the gift is under your control. Doesn't mean you can will it to happen without the Lord's leading. Evangelism is a supernatural gift. Is there a bigger one supernatural gift than salvation?

If you can't speak it at will then it is not under your control. Paul also told the Corinthians to keep silent, was he telling the Spirit of God to be silent, or was he telling the Corinthians to be silent.

crossnote
Oct 26th 2009, 03:13 AM
Would you please tie those together? To pull a single verse from 1 John that has nothing to do with the context of 1 Corinthians does not support your claim, unless you can show a link. For instance, if John was speaking of Spiritual gifts, I might be able to accommodate what you have said, however, he was not.


For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(1Co 13:12)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
(1Jn 3:2)

1Cor 13 is explained further by 1Jn 3. And this is when the gifts such as tongues, knowledge, and prophecies will cease.

Butch, now, what is your explanation for why the gifts have already ceased?

webhead
Oct 26th 2009, 03:45 AM
Why does tongues always get brought up in baptism in the Holy Spirit threads?

Charismatic tongues has nothing to do with baptism in the Holy Spirit, unless you are charismatic that is, and then you are wrong due to bad doctrine.

Wrong not for the tongues, but saying that tongues has something to do with the baptism.

Brother Mark
Oct 26th 2009, 03:49 AM
If you can't speak it at will then it is not under your control. Paul also told the Corinthians to keep silent, was he telling the Spirit of God to be silent, or was he telling the Corinthians to be silent.

Gifts don't work that way. You don't just will someone to be healed or will a word of knowledge. They are given from God and then you walk in obedience to that. You control it in that when God gives you a word, you wait your turn and give it decently and in order because the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. It doesn't mean that the prophet can just have a word and conjure it up. Those things come from God.

If Paul could have healed Timothy, don't you think he would have?

Desperaux
Oct 26th 2009, 05:08 AM
Paul didn't heal himself, nor did he heal Timothy of his stomach's problem.

Paul certainly did heal himself. timothy took care of his own stomach ailment by drinking a little wine instead of drinking foreign water which disagrees with most everyone. He took Paul's wise advice.

I think it is a major spiritual error to declare that Paul was never healed. It is an error that people use to excuse themselves from believing that God wants to heal everyone.

It is an excuse indeed, based on erroneous understanding.

Desperaux
Oct 26th 2009, 05:11 AM
Why does tongues always get brought up in baptism in the Holy Spirit threads?

Charismatic tongues has nothing to do with baptism in the Holy Spirit, unless you are charismatic that is, and then you are wrong due to bad doctrine.

Wrong not for the tongues, but saying that tongues has something to do with the baptism.

Tongues has something to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit gives it and He doesn't do so without empowering a person by His baptism. People who have not experienced the baptism will not be speaking in tongues.

webhead
Oct 26th 2009, 06:06 AM
Tongues has something to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit gives it and He doesn't do so without empowering a person by His baptism. People who have not experienced the baptism will not be speaking in tongues.

And people who speak in charismatic glossolalia, are not always baptized in the Holy Spirit.

It works both ways.

Again, glossolalia has nothing to do with being baptized in the Holy Spirit, unless you are wrongly taught so by charismatics. ;)

Desperaux
Oct 26th 2009, 06:22 AM
And people who speak in charismatic glossolalia, are not always baptized in the Holy Spirit.

That is your discernment to make, if necessary.


It works both ways.

It doesn't.


Again, glossolalia has nothing to do with being baptized in the Holy Spirit, unless you are wrongly taught so by charismatics. ;)

Sorry, but it certainly does. No one in Scripture spoke in tongues without having been baptized in the Holy Spirit first. The Word teaches that. Errant people teach otherwise.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 10:19 AM
Yep, one evidence that is common with all the examples of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is tongues. There are other evidence but they weren't the same in all the examples, except the speaking in tongues.

ZAB
Oct 26th 2009, 01:13 PM
Sorry, I have to disagree with you here. I believe this is why there is so much confusion in the church today. The letter was written to the Corinthians and pertained to the Corinthians. There is doctrine in the letter and that doctrine can be applied to Christians of all time. However, I believe it is a big mistake to read the letter as though it was written to us. How many pages of debate have there been regarding this issue? A lot. I believe it is because we don't read the Scriptures the way the were written. If as you say all of Scripture applies to us today, let me make a suggestion, let's apply all of it. That means that we should be able to go and sit down in a den of rattlesnakes, kick our feet up, and down a bottle or two of cyanide and have no ill effects, are those signs also still active?

I think you should read Heb 4:12, Matt 24:35, John 6:63, and 1 Pet 1:23... The Word of God is ALIVE. It's not some bundle of dormant words. It's a living organism. How could it NOT be applicable to us? It's ALIVE!

How can we say that we pattern every facet of Christian life after the Scriptures, and yet we forsake one of the most important facets: church operation! We are to pattern NT assembly after that which is revealed in Scripture. It was written to THE CHURCH, of which you and I are a part of. The Corinthians were simply the natural receptors of such doctrine, similarly how Israel was natural the receptor of God's "oracles", yet these "oracles" are for ALL men.

TO be honest with you, there is argument that the Corinthian epistles were written to more than ONE audience:


1 Cor 1:1-2 "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours..."

unto the church of God which is at Corinth
to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus
all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ
both theirs and ours :hmm:
2 Cor 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia..."

unto the church of God which is at Corinth
all the saints which are in all Achaia (to include Athens, Cenchrea, perhaps even Sicyon, Argos, etc.) How then can we say this truth was not UNIVERSAL? And APPLICABLE to all believing saints?
Would Paul go through all the trouble to present such a universal teaching if he knew the gifts being taught would shortly be expired? I don't think so.
Z.

ZAB
Oct 26th 2009, 01:20 PM
And people who speak in charismatic glossolalia, are not always baptized in the Holy Spirit.


glossolalia has nothing to do with being baptized in the Holy Spirit ...

Would you mind supporting your view with Scripture?

Thanks,

Z.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 01:30 PM
Gifts don't work that way. You don't just will someone to be healed or will a word of knowledge. They are given from God and then you walk in obedience to that. You control it in that when God gives you a word, you wait your turn and give it decently and in order because the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. It doesn't mean that the prophet can just have a word and conjure it up. Those things come from God.

Kinda how it is when the Lord has me write. I'll just be journaling and then it flows. I always have to go back and read it to see what the Lord said. He has also ministered meaning and understanding while I wrote as well. Now I am beginning to experience this knowledge while praying or even speaking.

When I went south last week the Lord was very specific in His instructions on a daily basis. First time experiencing this as well. That first night I set aside time to pray and received no instuction although my time with God ministered to me on a personal level. The next morning I woke and was doing the morning silent prayer and morning praise and then the Lord informed me what I had to do. The entire time I was away it was like that. Seeking God and listening and then doing on a daily basis. Now that I'm home, I guess my part in the task God has in operation is done and I'm not receiving anymore instruction. Some understanding of what I (we) had to do but nothing detailed. I am expectant to discover what happens in the future due to the prayers and tasks we had to do for God.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 01:39 PM
That means that we should be able to go and sit down in a den of rattlesnakes, kick our feet up, and down a bottle or two of cyanide and have no ill effects, are those signs also still active?Again, close your natural eyes, ears and mind. Look and hear with spiritual eyes/ears and let the Holy Spirit minister meaning to your heart.

The serpant is the enemy and and the poison is the persecution he inflicts... specially when you are out there doing the Great Commission and people are used to resist the spreading of the Good Word! Or say that you can't do elements of the Great Commision cause some feel those gifts don't operate anymore.

Use discernement and don't use an example of chaos in church from those few that do handle snakes... imitation as the enemy enables these people as that scripture is taken out of context and literally and naturally. So the enemy does enable those deceived and they do EXACTLY what you just said we'd do with that scripture.

How can you, of all people who say the gifts have ceased, basically cutting short the instructions of the Great Commission.... then say that the meaning of the serpant and poison means to sit in a den of snakes and to drink poison and if these are active...? Find for us, in all the scripture instructing us about the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit something that covers handling serpents and drinking poison!? You won't, so don't even associate this with what is of God and even suggest it is of God. Look at the fruit of all those churches that do snake handling... they're all cults and allow the enemy to drive all their imitation signs and wonders.

I once thought it was snakes and poison... ONCE. I got down in prayer and asked the Lord for understanding. This was very recent as a matter of fact, just a month or so ago when I did this and the Holy Spirit ministered to me that it's not a snake or poison in the natural world. Cause all the tasks of the Great Commision are spiritual, the only natural part is physocally getting out into the world and speak... do it and the Lord will enable all the signs and wonders to follow you and you will tread upon all the resistance from the persicution that the enemy sends against (before) you.

As a matter of fact, the trip 948 miles south I've mentioned in this thread was also for the Lord to show me confirmation of all that He did minister to me over these past couple months. No better way then to put me far away to show me His meaning and where/how He will begin to enable ministry to go out into the world.

The signs and wonders will follow you while the treading is for all before you. Soon as you start dancing around the serpents, your witness and effectiveness lessens cause you're working in the natural and not in the spiritual with God behind you... the signs/wonders stop and your momentum looses all anointing and steam. The Lord said to tread on the serpents and drink their poison so don't avoid the persecution, stand on it, eat it up with the Lord's Might behind you.

You ask, why don't all healers heal (even in this thread you asked)... its cause they dance around the persecution and allow the enemy to have an upper hand so the Holy Spirit can't support, the Mighty Lord isn't behind a person who dances around the snakes and avoids the poison. Once they stop dancing and start treading on the serpent, then the signs and wonders will follow. Or they go to churches without the faith to empower the healing as well. The Lord Jesus didn't lack in His faith so why did He not go into towns that lacked the faith and not even attempt to heal... Healers today need to take this example and stop entering churches who don't allow the Holy Spirit to freely flow cause no healing is gonna get done. Jesus couldn't do it in those types of areas, why would a person who is gifted with Healing even try... usually pride will make them try and fail and then be rated as a fraud. They need to be humble, allow the Holy Spirit to lead them to ONLY the area's and churches with the Holy Spirit and do their job as a vessel for the Holy Spirit to heal through.

Do some research in missionary/evangelistic movements in area's of the world where the people are hungry for God and allow the Holy Spirit to flow freely, healings are common, deliverence of demons is common etc.

Again, stop working in the natural and allow the Holy Spirit to give you the meaning.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 26th 2009, 03:03 PM
This is simply not true. He is not speaking TO MEN (of any language), the verse makes that very clear... Rather, he is speaking to God.

1 Cor 14: 2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him..." There's no getting around that.

If I were to come into an English service of English speakers, and I speak in Swahili no one will understand me.

"unknown tongue" - unknown is added by the KJV translators and does not appear in the original text. The original text just says tongue, there is no ambiguity on what tongue meant. The Greek glossa only meant two things.

1) The organ in the mouth
2) A known language

"Unknown" was a word added with the aim of aiding understanding by explaining that it is not the native language being referred to but a foreign one. Today, however, it has been so mangled by charismatics that it has caused more confusion than ever.

The rendering of "no man understandeth him" does not mean nobody in the world understands him, it is just the syntax of old English that means nobody in the congregation understands him.

A more modern literal translation will read thus (ESV):
1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.


Paul also says later, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful..." If Paul was praying in an earthly language, then why would he say this?

There are two possible explainations.

1) It is plain in Acts that the apostles did not speak, in their natural self, the languages that they spoke during Pentecost. The crowd gathered were clear on this, they asked, aren't these Galileans? Yet how is it that we hear them in our own languages?

It is clear that it was highly uncommon if not unheard of, for Galileans to speak and understand those foreign languages and dialects.

2) Paul could be saying, my understanding is unfruitful to others, not to himself.


Again, later he says, "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding, and I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also" (1 Cor 14:14-15). Why would Paul admonish us to do BOTH, if only ONE was for others around us? If only ONE was beneficial? It's because the prayer of tongues is for the individual believer, whereas the GIFT of tongues (coupled with it's interpretation) is for the edifying of the body, and is equivalent to prophesy for edification, exhortation and comfort (1 Cor 14:3).

No. This cannot be the correct interpretation because firstly,

1) There has never been a "prayer of tongues" until the early 1900s Pentecostal movement. Throughout recorded church history, there had never been any such interpretation of Scripture, even 400 years after the Reformation.

It was only with the advent of the Pentecostal movement and the appearing of the fake gift of tongues that this reading (rather mangling) of Scripture started. And Charles Fox Parham is documented (i.e. he himself wrote in his original writings) as believing initially that the gift of tongues was unlearned foreign languages, and there was only one gift of tonuges. It was only when the "tongues" they spoke could be tested and found false, that they invented new false doctrines to now say that tongues were an unintelligible language, i.e. glossolalia.

2) What Paul means by "pray and sing with my understanding" is clearly explained in the following verses. It simply means to pray and sing in your own language.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

- This may not be clear in this verse, but Paul is asking them to pray and sing in their own language, as will be evidently explained in the following verses

1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.

- here again, Paul clearly exlplains that the meaning of being "built up", i.e. edification, is when the other person understands and knows what you are saying. If you pray and sing in a foreign language among believers who all speak a common language, i.e. misusing the gift of tongues - which was meant for a sign to unbelievers speaking other languages, other people cannot understand what you're saying and cannot say "Amen."

1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
1Co 14:19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

- Here Paul clearly tells us what he means when he says "pray and sing with my mind." It is to speak, pray and sing in your own language.
- No, Paul is not saying to communicate by telepathy. But I will not be surprised if in future some heretic comes along and interprets it this way.
- "with my mind" is simply an allegorical way to say "speak your own language." - so that others can understand you



Again, this is not entirely accurate. The word "mystery" is the Greek word "musterion" and means, "that which is known only to the initiated". This is the word Jesus used when comparing the disciples and the multitudes:

Matt 13:10-12 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

And I have given multiple verses which detail what, even here, is meant by the word mysteries. It is the truths about God's kingdom, the nature of the kingdom of God in man's hearts, how the kingdom will have humble and tiny beginnings but will grow to be strong and numerous and spread all abroad, the nature of being born again, etc. that Jesus taught them in parable after parable, the parable of the sower, fish, net, yeast, mustard seed, etc. is the mystery of the kingdom of heaven revealed.

Nowhere in the Bible does mystery refer to something strange, wierd or carry the connotation it carries today with the rise of the occult, it is always a revelation of some truth up till now unrevealed by God.

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 03:18 PM
We need to reach the world, with the gifts of the Holy Spirit: healing, casting out demons, and raising the dead, just as Paul did with Eutychus in Acts 20:9-12. It demonstrates the power of the Holy Spirit...He is alive in the world today.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 03:28 PM
We need to reach the world, with the gifts of the Holy Spirit: healing, casting out demons, and raising the dead, just as Paul did with Eutychus in Acts 20:9-12. It demonstrates the power of the Holy Spirit...He is alive in the world today.Amen !

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 26th 2009, 03:33 PM
Every born again, Spirit-filled believer knows by the revelation of the Spirit that He meant that the perfect to come is Jesus Christ and His Kingdom.



You keep making statements like these. One wonders by what authority you pronounce such judgements?

Every born again, Spirit filled believer?

So I guess there were no born again, Spirit filled believers from the time of the Reformation till 1900s then?

Since you know that every "born-again, Spirit filled believer" reads it this way, you must have a list of their names and you must have:

1) Had a fail-safe way to qualify that each one of them was born-again and Spirit filled
2) Interviewed every last one on the planet and gotten their views on this

And everyone of us who disagrees with this reading is neither born-again nor Spirit filled?

divaD
Oct 26th 2009, 03:41 PM
Again, close your natural eyes, ears and mind. Look and hear with spiritual eyes/ears and let the Holy Spirit minister meaning to your heart.

The serpant is the enemy and and the poison is the persecution he inflicts... specially when you are out there doing the Great Commission and people are used to resist the spreading of the Good Word! Or say that you can't do elements of the Great Commision cause some feel those gifts don't operate anymore.

Use discernement and don't use an example of chaos in church from those few that do handle snakes... imitation as the enemy enables these people as that scripture is taken out of context and literally and naturally. So the enemy does enable those deceived and they do EXACTLY what you just said we'd do with that scripture.

How can you, of all people who say the gifts have ceased, basically cutting short the instructions of the Great Commission.... then say that the meaning of the serpant and poison means to sit in a den of snakes and to drink poison and if these are active...? Find for us, in all the scripture instructing us about the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit something that covers handling serpents and drinking poison!? You won't, so don't even associate this with what is of God and even suggest it is of God. Look at the fruit of all those churches that do snake handling... they're all cults and allow the enemy to drive all their imitation signs and wonders.

I once thought it was snakes and poison... ONCE. I got down in prayer and asked the Lord for understanding. This was very recent as a matter of fact, just a month or so ago when I did this and the Holy Spirit ministered to me that it's not a snake or poison in the natural world. Cause all the tasks of the Great Commision are spiritual, the only natural part is physocally getting out into the world and speak... do it and the Lord will enable all the signs and wonders to follow you and you will tread upon all the resistance from the persicution that the enemy sends against (before) you.

As a matter of fact, the trip 948 miles south I've mentioned in this thread was also for the Lord to show me confirmation of all that He did minister to me over these past couple months. No better way then to put me far away to show me His meaning and where/how He will begin to enable ministry to go out into the world.

The signs and wonders will follow you while the treading is for all before you. Soon as you start dancing around the serpents, your witness and effectiveness lessens cause you're working in the natural and not in the spiritual with God behind you... the signs/wonders stop and your momentum looses all anointing and steam. The Lord said to tread on the serpents and drink their poison so don't avoid the persecution, stand on it, eat it up with the Lord's Might behind you.

You ask, why don't all healers heal (even in this thread you asked)... its cause they dance around the persecution and allow the enemy to have an upper hand so the Holy Spirit can't support, the Mighty Lord isn't behind a person who dances around the snakes and avoids the poison. Once they stop dancing and start treading on the serpent, then the signs and wonders will follow. Or they go to churches without the faith to empower the healing as well. The Lord Jesus didn't lack in His faith so why did He not go into towns that lacked the faith and not even attempt to heal... Healers today need to take this example and stop entering churches who don't allow the Holy Spirit to freely flow cause no healing is gonna get done. Jesus couldn't do it in those types of areas, why would a person who is gifted with Healing even try... usually pride will make them try and fail and then be rated as a fraud. They need to be humble, allow the Holy Spirit to lead them to ONLY the area's and churches with the Holy Spirit and do their job as a vessel for the Holy Spirit to heal through.

Do some research in missionary/evangelistic movements in area's of the world where the people are hungry for God and allow the Holy Spirit to flow freely, healings are common, deliverence of demons is common etc.

Again, stop working in the natural and allow the Holy Spirit to give you the meaning.



Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



It's a pretty simple deduction. If the taking up of serpents, and drinking any deadly thing is not literal, then neither can be casting out devils, speaking with new tongues, laying hands on the sick, and they recovering...these can't be literal as well. We can't cherry pick what is literal in these 2 verses, and what isn't. If speaking with new tongues is literal, then so is drinking deadly poisions, and not being hurt by them. The same goes for taking up serpents. How do you spiritualize the laying on of hands, and of them recovering, the same way that you spiritualize taking up serpents, or drinking deadly poisons, and not being hurt?

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 26th 2009, 03:46 PM
The reason people are not healed is that they lack faith. It hasn't to do with the one carrying the gift, or those who lay hands on people. God is always willing to heal. It is us who are sick who must appropriate the healing.

Could you explain to me how the following people exercised faith:

1) Jairus' daughter
2) Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha
3) The centurion's servant, who didn't even see Jesus


Those who lay hands on the sick for healing--all of us should be doing that--aren't to blame when healing doesn't some. who says it has to be instantaneous? Even with Jesus, not every healing was instantaneous. Look at the man who was blind in Mark 8:22-26. Jesus had to declare him healed more than once. In other words, He heals in stages also.

Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the village, and when he had spit on his eyes and laid his hands on him, he asked him, "Do you see anything?"
Mar 8:24 And he looked up and said, "I see men, but they look like trees, walking."
Mar 8:25 Then Jesus laid his hands on his eyes again; and he opened his eyes, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.

I don't know about you, but I don't think there was a period of days, weeks or even months and years that passed between verses 24 and 25. :P

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 26th 2009, 03:56 PM
It is an error that people use to excuse themselves from believing that God wants to heal everyone.

It is an excuse indeed, based on erroneous understanding.

If God wants to heal everyone, then:

1) Why wasn't Jacob ever healed, up till his death? He's a Patriach after all, one of God's favoured.
2) Why wasn't Paul healed of his infirmity?
3) Why did Jesus only heal one cripple at the Pool of Bethesda and not everyone there?

Isn't this a direct contradiction of other views you presented on other threads, whereby some people said, if there were truly those who had the gifts of healing, why not clear out the hospitals, burn units, Down's syndrome kid's homes, school for the blind, etc and then preach the Gospel to them?

So if you believe

A) It is God's will to heal everyone
B) There are so many born-again Spirit filled people around
C) The gifts of healing are still in operation

why are doctors still making such a good living, and hospitals popping up everywhere?

Isn't that a humongous contradiction?

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 26th 2009, 04:02 PM
We need to reach the world, with the gifts of the Holy Spirit: healing, casting out demons, and raising the dead, just as Paul did with Eutychus in Acts 20:9-12. It demonstrates the power of the Holy Spirit...He is alive in the world today.

Actually, believe it or not, Paul never taught the church to cast out demons. He asked the elders to pray for the sick (note that he did not ask those with gifts of healing to pray for the sick), but he never instructed anyone in any church to cast out demons.

Instead, he told them to put on the helmet of salvation, the belt of truth, breastplate of righteousness, sandles ready to go and spread the Gospel and take the shield of faith.

And Paul repeatedly teaches us that the instrument that God uses to save souls is the plain and faithful preaching of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 26th 2009, 04:07 PM
Paul certainly did heal himself.

What is the book, chapter and verse that says that please?


timothy took care of his own stomach ailment by drinking a little wine instead of drinking foreign water which disagrees with most everyone. He took Paul's wise advice.

If Timothy is clearly born again and spirit filled, and the gift of healing did not cease, why didn't Timothy just heal himself? Why did he need to drink wine?


I think it is a major spiritual error to declare that Paul was never healed. It is an error that people use to excuse themselves from believing that God wants to heal everyone.


I would agree wholeheartedly with you when I see the book, chapter and verse please.

webhead
Oct 26th 2009, 04:17 PM
Would you mind supporting your view with Scripture?

Thanks,

Z.

John chapter 1:33. Speaks about Christs baptism in the Holy Spirit, no tongues mentioned. Yes, Christ is never mentioned speaking in tongues. He didn't need to, he only ministered to his own people, so he spoke the native language just fine. No need for a translator either obviously.

Luke 1:41 no tongues

Luke 1:67 no tongues

Acts 2 known languages, not unknown tongues.

Acts 4:31 no tongues

Acts 7:55 no tongues

Acts 8:17 no tongues

And the list goes on.....................................

notuptome
Oct 26th 2009, 04:23 PM
Has it been agreed that there is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit? The sinner is baptised in the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion (belief). It is the Holy Spirit that quickens the sinner. It is the Holy Spirit that effects the new birth in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 04:46 PM
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



It's a pretty simple deduction. If the taking up of serpents, and drinking any deadly thing is not literal, then neither can be casting out devils, speaking with new tongues, laying hands on the sick, and they recovering...these can't be literal as well. We can't cherry pick what is literal in these 2 verses, and what isn't. If speaking with new tongues is literal, then so is drinking deadly poisions, and not being hurt by them. The same goes for taking up serpents. How do you spiritualize the laying on of hands, and of them recovering, the same way that you spiritualize taking up serpents, or drinking deadly poisons, and not being hurt?Speaking in tongues is spiritual, healing is spiritual, casting out demons is spiritual, so then why all of the sudden snakes and poison is worldly type?

If you feel that speaking in tongues, healing, and casting out a demon is "literal" or natural... then by what source of power do you accomplish these? It's not from you, not from me, not from anyone... Only through the power of God, so it's "spiritual".

Don't think of these signs as a literal ability that a person has, only in Christ do we have this ability. It's spiritual.

Again, view the fruit from all those who wear snakes and use them in their services... it don't go outside their walls into the world to bring Christ to others... it brings fear and a bad name to Christ and Christians. It only stays in the walls of their churches, hidden or ignored.

By the fruit... is a method of discernment for those without the gift of discernment (see how good God is to us by giving all a way to discern) and fear is not a fruit of God.

It don't line up with the rest of that scritpure at all in the context of literal snakes and drinking literal poison.

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2009, 05:36 PM
Has it been agreed that there is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit? The sinner is baptised in the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion (belief). It is the Holy Spirit that quickens the sinner. It is the Holy Spirit that effects the new birth in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Can't agree to that. It's not biblical.

all the best...

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 05:58 PM
Brother Mark---Gifts don't work that way. You don't just will someone to be healed or will a word of knowledge. They are given from God and then you walk in obedience to that. You control it in that when God gives you a word, you wait your turn and give it decently and in order because the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. It doesn't mean that the prophet can just have a word and conjure it up. Those things come from God.


Acts 5:12-16 ( KJV )
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch.
And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.


Brother Mark---If Paul could have healed Timothy, don't you think he would have?

Acts 28:8 ( KJV )
And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 06:00 PM
Yep, one evidence that is common with all the examples of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is tongues. There are other evidence but they weren't the same in all the examples, except the speaking in tongues.


1 Corinthians 12:28-31 ( KJV )
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 06:02 PM
1 Corinthians 12:28-31 ( KJV )
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.This is scripture concerning the Gift of Tongues. Not tongues as evidence of a Baptism of the Holy Spirt. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't a gift, it's for empowerment to do the gifts and that isn't always necessary based on scritpure. Yeah, tongues is the evidence as well as a few other signs but that scripture is about the Gift of Tongues themselves. Not all are given this gift. Even if they received the Baptism and spoke at that moment, they may never speak in tongues again while their gift (any of the other 8 of 9) will manifest. It's really all up to God and His will.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 06:17 PM
I think you should read Heb 4:12, Matt 24:35, John 6:63, and 1 Pet 1:23... The Word of God is ALIVE. It's not some bundle of dormant words. It's a living organism. How could it NOT be applicable to us? It's ALIVE!

How can we say that we pattern every facet of Christian life after the Scriptures, and yet we forsake one of the most important facets: church operation! We are to pattern NT assembly after that which is revealed in Scripture. It was written to THE CHURCH, of which you and I are a part of. The Corinthians were simply the natural receptors of such doctrine, similarly how Israel was natural the receptor of God's "oracles", yet these "oracles" are for ALL men.

TO be honest with you, there is argument that the Corinthian epistles were written to more than ONE audience:



1 Cor 1:1-2 "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours..."

unto the church of God which is at Corinth
to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus
all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ
both theirs and ours :hmm:
2 Cor 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia..."

unto the church of God which is at Corinth
all the saints which are in all Achaia (to include Athens, Cenchrea, perhaps even Sicyon, Argos, etc.) How then can we say this truth was not UNIVERSAL? And APPLICABLE to all believing saints?
Would Paul go through all the trouble to present such a universal teaching if he knew the gifts being taught would shortly be expired? I don't think so.
Z.


It could be to others of the era if the same applied.

Here is the main problem as I see it. Most of the epistles were written to address specific questions posed to the apostles.

Do you know what those questions were???

How can you interpret the answer without knowing the question???

For instance, suppose someone writes me a letter and I reply with the following, No I am not happy he won, I am upset about it. Can you interpret that for me? Is it a good thing that I am not happy about it or a bad thing??? That depends on the question, suppose the question was, Hey, I heard that your son won an award for the worst grade in the class are you happy about it. My response has a completely different meaning than if the question was, Hey, I heard you son won an award for the best grade in the class are you happy about it. Can you see how the same answer can have different meanings? It is no different with these letters, if we try to interpret them apart from the questions being asked we come up with all kinds of wrong understandings. This is one of the reasons I asked if you did the research regarding tongues. If you are interpreting the passages in 1 Cor. 12-14 without considering what the history behind the questions is, then you have not basis for your conclusions. As I have shown with my example, Paul's statements can have completely opposite meanings depending on the questions being asked. If you don't do the research then you will not know what the questions are.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2009, 06:25 PM
Can't agree to that. It's not biblical.

all the best...
You did not elaborate but I see Titus 3:5-6 as laying the scriptural basis for what I have said. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior"

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 06:26 PM
It could be to others of the era if the same applied.

Here is the main problem as I see it. Most of the epistles were written to address specific questions posed to the apostles.

Do you know what those questions were???

How can you interpret the answer without knowing the question???

For instance, suppose someone writes me a letter and I reply with the following, No I am not happy he won, I am upset about it. Can you interpret that for me? Is it a good thing that I am not happy about it or a bad thing??? That depends on the question, suppose the question was, Hey, I heard that your son won an award for the worst grade in the class are you happy about it. My response has a completely different meaning than if the question was, Hey, I heard you son won an award for the best grade in the class are you happy about it. Can you see how the same answer can have different meanings? It is no different with these letters, if we try to interpret them apart from the questions being asked we come up with all kinds of wrong understandings. This is one of the reasons I asked if you did the research regarding tongues. If you are interpreting the passages in 1 Cor. 12-14 without considering what the history behind the questions is, then you have not basis for your conclusions. As I have shown with my example, Paul's statements can have completely opposite meanings depending on the questions being asked. If you don't do the research then you will not know what the questions are.All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and really doesn't require a question to inspire an answer. The Lord knew "we"... you, me, my children, your grand children and their grand children would all have the same questions and need the same answers as did those alive at that moment(s) in time as the Bible was written.

As for different meanings... sure, another fact that the Bible is the "Living" Word of God. But the difference is that meaning must be revealed and ministered to you by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Way to many Christians read the Bible and see and hear in the flesh.

Reasearch :hmm:.... you mean what man has said the meaning is or what the Holy Spirit reveals the meaning is ;)

I just had to ask you this :hug:

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 06:32 PM
Again, close your natural eyes, ears and mind. Look and hear with spiritual eyes/ears and let the Holy Spirit minister meaning to your heart.

The serpant is the enemy and and the poison is the persecution he inflicts... specially when you are out there doing the Great Commission and people are used to resist the spreading of the Good Word! Or say that you can't do elements of the Great Commision cause some feel those gifts don't operate anymore.

Use discernement and don't use an example of chaos in church from those few that do handle snakes... imitation as the enemy enables these people as that scripture is taken out of context and literally and naturally. So the enemy does enable those deceived and they do EXACTLY what you just said we'd do with that scripture.

How can you, of all people who say the gifts have ceased, basically cutting short the instructions of the Great Commission.... then say that the meaning of the serpant and poison means to sit in a den of snakes and to drink poison and if these are active...? Find for us, in all the scripture instructing us about the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit something that covers handling serpents and drinking poison!? You won't, so don't even associate this with what is of God and even suggest it is of God. Look at the fruit of all those churches that do snake handling... they're all cults and allow the enemy to drive all their imitation signs and wonders.

I once thought it was snakes and poison... ONCE. I got down in prayer and asked the Lord for understanding. This was very recent as a matter of fact, just a month or so ago when I did this and the Holy Spirit ministered to me that it's not a snake or poison in the natural world. Cause all the tasks of the Great Commision are spiritual, the only natural part is physocally getting out into the world and speak... do it and the Lord will enable all the signs and wonders to follow you and you will tread upon all the resistance from the persicution that the enemy sends against (before) you.

As a matter of fact, the trip 948 miles south I've mentioned in this thread was also for the Lord to show me confirmation of all that He did minister to me over these past couple months. No better way then to put me far away to show me His meaning and where/how He will begin to enable ministry to go out into the world.

The signs and wonders will follow you while the treading is for all before you. Soon as you start dancing around the serpents, your witness and effectiveness lessens cause you're working in the natural and not in the spiritual with God behind you... the signs/wonders stop and your momentum looses all anointing and steam. The Lord said to tread on the serpents and drink their poison so don't avoid the persecution, stand on it, eat it up with the Lord's Might behind you.

You ask, why don't all healers heal (even in this thread you asked)... its cause they dance around the persecution and allow the enemy to have an upper hand so the Holy Spirit can't support, the Mighty Lord isn't behind a person who dances around the snakes and avoids the poison. Once they stop dancing and start treading on the serpent, then the signs and wonders will follow. Or they go to churches without the faith to empower the healing as well. The Lord Jesus didn't lack in His faith so why did He not go into towns that lacked the faith and not even attempt to heal... Healers today need to take this example and stop entering churches who don't allow the Holy Spirit to freely flow cause no healing is gonna get done. Jesus couldn't do it in those types of areas, why would a person who is gifted with Healing even try... usually pride will make them try and fail and then be rated as a fraud. They need to be humble, allow the Holy Spirit to lead them to ONLY the area's and churches with the Holy Spirit and do their job as a vessel for the Holy Spirit to heal through.

Do some research in missionary/evangelistic movements in area's of the world where the people are hungry for God and allow the Holy Spirit to flow freely, healings are common, deliverence of demons is common etc.

Again, stop working in the natural and allow the Holy Spirit to give you the meaning.

Wow, I am surprised that you dismiss the other signs.


Mark 16:16-18 ( KJV )
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Let me turn the tables and ask why is it that only some of the signs continue while others do not. Clearly here we have tongues and snake handling mentioned together. Why would tongues continue and not snake handling?Why did you use drinking poison and handling snake metaphorically and not the other gifts?

You asked for evidence,

Acts 28:1-6 ( KJV )
And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.
And the barbarous people showed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold.
And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

Was it a metaphor that bit Paul, or was it just as Jesus said,

Mark 16:18 ( KJV )
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I really am interested in what the basis is for your deciding that these two signs are not real while the other are.

notuptome
Oct 26th 2009, 06:38 PM
This is scripture concerning the Gift of Tongues. Not tongues as evidence of a Baptism of the Holy Spirt. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't a gift, it's for empowerment to do the gifts and that isn't always necessary based on scritpure. Yeah, tongues is the evidence as well as a few other signs but that scripture is about the Gift of Tongues themselves. Not all are given this gift. Even if they received the Baptism and spoke at that moment, they may never speak in tongues again while their gift (any of the other 8 of 9) will manifest. It's really all up to God and His will.
There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit and that is at the moment of salvation.

Acts 2:4 does not say Peter was baptized in the Holy Spirit and began to speak it says he was filled with the Holy Spirit. Peter and the other disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit in the upper room when Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit. John 20:22 "...He breathed on them and saith Receive ye the Holy Spirit."

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 06:40 PM
This is scripture concerning the Gift of Tongues. Not tongues as evidence of a Baptism of the Holy Spirt. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't a gift, it's for empowerment to do the gifts and that isn't always necessary based on scritpure. Yeah, tongues is the evidence as well as a few other signs but that scripture is about the Gift of Tongues themselves. Not all are given this gift. Even if they received the Baptism and spoke at that moment, they may never speak in tongues again while their gift (any of the other 8 of 9) will manifest. It's really all up to God and His will.

There is more than one tongues???

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 06:46 PM
There is more than one tongues???Even in your scripture presented shows two... speaking is one and interpreting is another. Two separate gifts.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 06:49 PM
All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and really doesn't require a question to inspire an answer. The Lord knew "we"... you, me, my children, your grand children and their grand children would all have the same questions and need the same answers as did those alive at that moment(s) in time as the Bible was written.

As for different meanings... sure, another fact that the Bible is the "Living" Word of God. But the difference is that meaning must be revealed and ministered to you by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Way to many Christians read the Bible and see and hear in the flesh.

Reasearch :hmm:.... you mean what man has said the meaning is or what the Holy Spirit reveals the meaning is ;)

I just had to ask you this :hug:

Sorry friend, Paul's meaning doesn't change over time. The answer to the questions means the same thing today that it mean when he wrote it. If you do not know the questions then you cannot understand the answer.

By research I mean to see if said facts are true.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 06:49 PM
There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit and that is at the moment of salvation.

Acts 2:4 does not say Peter was baptized in the Holy Spirit and began to speak it says he was filled with the Holy Spirit. Peter and the other disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit in the upper room when Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit. John 20:22 "...He breathed on them and saith Receive ye the Holy Spirit."

For the cause of Christ
RogerThen why did Peter experience Cornelious (who was filled with the Holy Spirit) then receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to prove to Peter that the Holy Spirit dwelled in him? Then Peter did the water baptism... why, just to go through the motions?

Also, we have those Paul met on the road, I believe it's Acts 19 :hmm:. They had already accepted Christ so they are filled and then they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as well. Clearly two separate events.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 06:50 PM
Even in your scripture presented shows two... speaking is one and interpreting is another. Two separate gifts.

Interpretting is not a tongues.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 06:52 PM
Wow, I am surprised that you dismiss the other signs.


Mark 16:16-18 ( KJV )
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Let me turn the tables and ask why is it that only some of the signs continue while others do not. Clearly hear we have tongues and snake handling mentioned together. Why would tongues continue and not snake handling?Why did you use drinking poison and handling snake metaphorically and not the other gifts?

You asked for evidence,

Acts 28:1-6 ( KJV )
And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.
And the barbarous people showed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold.
And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

Was it a metaphor that bit Paul, or was it just as Jesus said,

Mark 16:18 ( KJV )
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I really am interested in what the basis is for your deciding that these two signs are not real while the other are.Dude, thanks for this scripture... hmmmm, the fruit is the evidence then.

Like you said and I fully agree, scriptpure has more then one meaning in some (if not many) cases. This is great for me as well cause loose ends are being tied up in my private questions to God with this thread :pp

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 07:08 PM
We need the gifts of the Holy Spirit to reach the world. By the power of the Holy Spirit in me, I have cast out demons, healed the sick and in a group of three, raised a man from the dead, just as Paul raised Eutychus in Acts 20:9-12.

That is what I like about the 700 Club. They call out the "Word of knowledge" and many people are healed, and their doctors are amazed.

I come from an extended family of six, soon to be seven doctors, five nurses, one veterinarian, and one Chemical Engineer. But, my trust is in the promises of God. He not only bore our sin, but, also bore our sickness and disease.

One of my friends is an Oncology Nurse Practictioner. I was bitten by, I believe, a brown recluse spider. She saw a line going up my leg, and wanted me to go to the hospital. I said, Jesus will heal me, and He did! Even nerve damage. My only doctor is the Lord Jesus Christ - I do not want to put my trust in the arm of the flesh.

Did you know, that, the word "sorcery," in Rev 9:21;18:13 means, "Pharmakeia," "pharmakeus," "pharmakon?" It also says, "a druggist," "medication," "witchcraft," "pharmacist," "sorcerer."

How many lawsuits are over pharmaceuticals? There are always side effects to these drugs. I would rather put my trust in the Word of God.

I recommend the book, Christ,The Healer by F.F. Bosworth. He not only had a healing ministry, but, teaches out of the Word on divine healing.

shepherdsword
Oct 26th 2009, 07:11 PM
Interpretting is not a tongues.



All languages are "tongues"

Unknown tongues will cease when all the rest of them do. Until then..seek it out.

ZAB
Oct 26th 2009, 07:20 PM
...

No. This cannot be the correct interpretation because firstly,

1) There has never been a "prayer of tongues" until the early 1900s Pentecostal movement. Throughout recorded church history, there had never been any such interpretation of Scripture, even 400 years after the Reformation.

Any proof? You're assuming that you know the ins and outs of every Christian sector of ages past!


It was only with the advent of the Pentecostal movement and the appearing of the fake gift of tongues that this reading (rather mangling) of Scripture started. And Charles Fox Parham is documented (i.e. he himself wrote in his original writings) as believing initially that the gift of tongues was unlearned foreign languages, and there was only one gift of tonuges. It was only when the "tongues" they spoke could be tested and found false, that they invented new false doctrines to now say that tongues were an unintelligible language, i.e. glossolalia.

I would not call "groanings that cannot be uttered" unintelligible languages. The Holy Spirit knows what we pray.


2) What Paul means by "pray and sing with my understanding" is clearly explained in the following verses. It simply means to pray and sing in your own language.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

- This may not be clear in this verse, but Paul is asking them to pray and sing in their own language, as will be evidently explained in the following verses

1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.

- here again, Paul clearly exlplains that the meaning of being "built up", i.e. edification, is when the other person understands and knows what you are saying. If you pray and sing in a foreign language among believers who all speak a common language, i.e. misusing the gift of tongues - which was meant for a sign to unbelievers speaking other languages, other people cannot understand what you're saying and cannot say "Amen."

1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
1Co 14:19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

- Here Paul clearly tells us what he means when he says "pray and sing with my mind." It is to speak, pray and sing in your own language.
- No, Paul is not saying to communicate by telepathy. But I will not be surprised if in future some heretic comes along and interprets it this way.
- "with my mind" is simply an allegorical way to say "speak your own language." - so that others can understand you.

Sorry to burst your bubble but the entire foundation of your argument crumbles at the fact that Paul did BOTH! He prayed with his understanding, and with the Spirit. If this "prayer in the spirit" was meant to be for corporate edification, Paul would not have said "howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries". Mysteries are not mysteries if they are understood by men. Also, Paul said his "spirit prayeth". This is not what we see in Acts 2. These are different purposes. You are confusing the ministry gift (that is always coupled with interpretation) and the personal prayer of tongues (Jude 20; etc). You seem to think Paul is comparing natural speech with tongues (understanding vs Spirit). He is not. He is comparing tongues with its interpretation (understanding) and tongues without its interpretation (Spirit).

Let me ask you... what is the purpose of tongues in the church if it was ONLY meant to be a sign of judgment? Why does Paul instruct us how to operate in them?


And I have given multiple verses which detail what, even here, is meant by the word mysteries. It is the truths about God's kingdom, the nature of the kingdom of God in man's hearts, how the kingdom will have humble and tiny beginnings but will grow to be strong and numerous and spread all abroad, the nature of being born again, etc. that Jesus taught them in parable after parable, the parable of the sower, fish, net, yeast, mustard seed, etc. is the mystery of the kingdom of heaven revealed.

Nowhere in the Bible does mystery refer to something strange, weird or carry the connotation it carries today with the rise of the occult, it is always a revelation of some truth up till now unrevealed by God.

Who said a mystery was something weird?

Z.

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 07:25 PM
Paul boasted about His weakness - He had eye weakness. I am growing older, and my eyes are weak. This temporal body will be replaced by an immortal body that will live forever! Paul's thorn was an angel or messenger of Satan - those who were mixed in with believers, just as they opposed Jesus and His disciples.

We talk about infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions, because in this world we will have them. Because our bodies are cursed...When Jesus comes we will get immortal bodies!

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 07:27 PM
There are millions of Pentecostals around the world. Those who speak in tongues, and those who interpret tongues. Those who heal, cast out demons, and raise the dead. I would encourage you to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, and then you will have the gifts of the Spirit.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 07:33 PM
watchinginawe---Charity alone is mentioned as never failing. That is important when we get to the last verse when charity is given as the greatest. It is really quite simple, it is because charity never faileth. But you insist on adding to the passage something it doesn't even hint at.


What would that be?



watchinginawe---These abide currently, before that which is perfect comes.

Yes they do, and His point is that they will remain after Prophecy, knowledge , and tongues cease. He says now abideth these three. Well, when He said that prophecy, knowledge, and tongues also still remained. Obviously he is contrasting the two groups, otherwise he would have said now all of these remain.



watchinginawe---Nope. Not even by the most liberal reading does Paul say that. That is pure invention to bolster some argument that what Paul was referring to as coming was not our perfection or the coming of the Lord (really the same thing). If one simply reads the epistle this becomes obvious.

Even form Paul's introduction Paul teaches on the coming of the Lord:

I Corinthians 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Already Paul establishes what was being waited for in verse 7, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul also establishes the source of true unity which is God, the One who enriches us, equiping us with what we need to establish us and keep us (individually and the Church) until the coming of our Lord.

Paul mentions it again in Chapter 4. I am going to concatenate a portion of the Chapter 13 passage to this for illustration:

I Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
...
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
...
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul moves directly from his appeal to charity in Chapter 13 into the teaching regarding Spiritual gifts in Chapter 14. But Paul does not leave us hanging on what he was discussing regarding "that which is perfect" to come. After concluding his teaching on Spiritual gifts (teaching is what cures ignorance, which Paul would not have them ignorant of Spiritual gifts), Paul greatly expands on the theme of the coming of the Lord in Chapter 15. Paul proclaims the Gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ as past events. But then Paul moves to what is to come again even as he reveals mysteries to us. Paul explains how the imperfect will give way to the perfect (completion), the corruptible will give way to the incorruptible. It is the same theme as that in Chapter 13 and the same teaching as Paul introduced in the first of the epistle (Chapter 1 v. 7):

I Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
...
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


The teaching of the coming of the Lord is prominent all through the epistle. There isn't some mysterious other thing in Chapter 13 that Paul is telling the Church to wait for. When that which is perfect comes it means exactly that and not some obscure reference to the canon of scripture. We will be perfected in eternity with God.

God Bless!

You have some problems with that scenario.

1. “the perfect” is in the neuter gender.
2. Where does Scripture teach us that when Christ comes we will have complete knowledge?
3. What need will there be for prophecy when Christ comes, especially if you have complete knowledge?
4. Luke records that the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of the apostles hands. This would indicate that the perfect must come before the death of the last apostle.
5. Paul anticipated the coming of the Perfect within his life time.
6. Paul records in Ephesians,

Ephesians 4:11-16 ( KJV )
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Here is the perfect,

Ephesians 4:13 ( KJV )
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Now if you say that this is the second coming of Christ, I must ask you, will there be false teachers and afalse doctrine in the kingdom of God?

Ephesians 4:14 ( KJV )
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
So, again we see maturity is the issue. The purpose of “the perfect” is so that we are no longer children tossed to and fro, and carried about by every wind of doctrine. Would this really be a problem in the kingdom of God?

Slug1
Oct 26th 2009, 07:35 PM
There are millions of Pentecostals around the world. Those who speak in tongues, and those who interpret tongues. Those who heal, cast out demons, and raise the dead.All this isn't limited to Pentecostals. I attend a church that's Pentecostal and don't lable faithful Christians with a denom title. The Lord has had me move from church to church so I don't lable myself under any denom. There are many Pentecostals that are prime candidates for the correction that Paul gave the Corinthians, as well as many other denoms. But Pentecostals do allow the Holy Spirit freedom to manifest and in the year I was seeking the Lord to understand the movement of the Holy Spirit in us, He moved me from a Nazarene church (that suppressed the Holy Spirit) to a Pentacostal church that allowed the Holy Spirit freedom. This church didn't speak my language as their primary language but hey... I'm not complaining, I'm just being obedient to God and allowing Him to answer my questions and to heal me.

Butch5
Oct 26th 2009, 07:40 PM
All languages are "tongues"

Unknown tongues will cease when all the rest of them do. Until then..seek it out.

I didn't say languages weren't a tongue. Interpretting isn't.

ZAB
Oct 26th 2009, 07:43 PM
John chapter 1:33. Speaks about Christs baptism in the Holy Spirit, no tongues mentioned. Yes, Christ is never mentioned speaking in tongues. He didn't need to, he only ministered to his own people, so he spoke the native language just fine. No need for a translator either obviously.

Tongues as a ministry gift... no. There was no need. Tongues as a personal edification (Jude 20; etc)... possibly. Read Jn 11:33, 38 with Rom 8:26. This is not concrete evidence, but is evidence nonetheless.


Luke 1:41 no tongues

Luke 1:67 no tongues

These instances are NOT referring to the BAPTISM. Even the disciples had a measure of the Holy Ghost (Jn 20:22), yet were not baptized in the Holy Ghost until LATER in Acts 2.


Acts 2 known languages, not unknown tongues.

The ministry gift is far different than that which is for personal edification.


Acts 4:31 no tongues

We have no reason to believe that they didn't speak in tongues. Why wold we? Don't most other instances of the Holy Ghost Baptism reference tongues? Yes. So the only reason why we would be critical is because of our personal unbelief. In interpretation, we always should go with the weight of evidence.


Acts 7:55 no tongues

This has nothing to do with the BAPTISM; this is where you seem to be confused. We all have a measure of the Holy Spirit (Jn 22:20). He is required in order to get saved. He applies the blood of Christ to our hearts. However, this is not the same as being BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit. That's like comparing a trickle of water to a waterfall.


Acts 8:17 no tongues

What exactly do you suppose Simon SAW (vs. 18)? He SAW the manifestation of the Holy Spirit baptism. And what is that? Speaking with tongues. How could Simon see they were baptized? He must have witnessed EXTERNAL EVIDENCE!

Z.

Moxie
Oct 26th 2009, 07:45 PM
Has it been agreed that there is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit? The sinner is baptised in the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion (belief). It is the Holy Spirit that quickens the sinner. It is the Holy Spirit that effects the new birth in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Can't agree to that. It's not biblical.

all the best...

Acts 10:43-47

If believers do not have specific gifts given to them by the Holy Spirit then how is it that the Holy Spirit operates in the live of the believer?

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 08:00 PM
Well, He is limited to our walk. But, if you are baptized in the Holy Spirit - there are no limits. My child broke out in hives. Her grandfather told her to stay away from different foods. My other children just laughed, they said, "Jesus would heal her." AND HE DID!!!

I do not hold with tradition. When we side with tradition, we are siding with Satan, "Yea, hath God said...?" Gen 3:1. I ask the Lord to put His Word in my heart, my mind, and in my heart.

The Lord calls the denominational system, "The Mother of harlots." Rev 17.

"And I heard another Voice from heaven saying, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE that ye be not partakers of her sins ("the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4) and that ye receive not of HER PLAGUES.

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (lawlessness) Rev 18:4,5.

In Psalm 119, the word, "Word," is used interchangeably with, "law," "commandments," "judgments," "precepts, "statutes," "testimonies."

God's Word is His law.

The only law that was fulfilled was the Ceremonial law, which was nailed to the cross.

I study the Scriptures as the Bereans did: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11. If it isn't in the Scripture, I won't believe it.

The Apostle John wrote, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.

The Apostle Paul wrote, "For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Rom 2:12,13.

"But be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers, only, deceiving yourselves." Ja 1:22.

Desperaux
Oct 26th 2009, 10:10 PM
If I were to come into an English service of English speakers, and I speak in Swahili no one will understand me.

If you are moved by the Holy Spirit to speak in Swahili, it will be because a Swahili is in the room and needs the instruction of the Lord through your submissive vocal cords.

Desperaux
Oct 26th 2009, 10:20 PM
No. This cannot be the correct interpretation because firstly,

1) There has never been a "prayer of tongues" until the early 1900s Pentecostal movement. Throughout recorded church history, there had never been any such interpretation of Scripture, even 400 years after the Reformation.

Speaking to God in tongues IS prayer.


2) What Paul means by "pray and sing with my understanding" is clearly explained in the following verses. It simply means to pray and sing in your own language.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

- This may not be clear in this verse, but Paul is asking them to pray and sing in their own language,

No he isn't. Read the text again:

1 Corinthians 14:15-16
15 Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand.

CLEARLY there are two kinds of prayer and singing. One is natural which includes understanding, and one is in the spirit--tongues, where there is no natural understanding.

Desperaux
Oct 26th 2009, 10:25 PM
You keep making statements like these. One wonders by what authority you pronounce such judgements?

I have the authority of Jesus Christ to declare His truth.


Every born again, Spirit filled believer?Yes, unless they happen to be deceived in that area, and need to be corrected.


So I guess there were no born again, Spirit filled believers from the time of the Reformation till 1900s then? There have always been spirit-filled believers on the planet since Christ.


Since you know that every "born-again, Spirit filled believer" reads it this way, you must have a list of their names and you must have:

1) Had a fail-safe way to qualify that each one of them was born-again and Spirit filled
2) Interviewed every last one on the planet and gotten their views on this

And everyone of us who disagrees with this reading is neither born-again nor Spirit filled?The brethren know each other by Who they profess. Those who deny the Holy Spirit and His work among the brethren are deceived. Not all unsaved, but they are in need of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit , whom sadly they grieve.

Acts 15:8
God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.

The Holy Spirit is a gift to us--and He comes to each one of us bearing great gifts.

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 10:27 PM
That is why tongues needs to be interpreted. There are believers, who are not baptized in the Holy Spirit. If you want to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, ask Him to baptize you.

Desperaux
Oct 26th 2009, 10:37 PM
Could you explain to me how the following people exercised faith:

1) Jairus' daughter
2) Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha
3) The centurion's servant, who didn't even see Jesus

Sometimes it is only by the wonderful grace of God that people receive a healing. Mostly, it is by faith--our own faith for our own healing, or by someone else's..as in the healing of the man who was let down through the roof of a house where Jesus healed him because of the faith of the friends.

Jesus was known to have berated people for having little faith. Quantity is important, too, as well as quality.



Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the village, and when he had spit on his eyes and laid his hands on him, he asked him, "Do you see anything?"
Mar 8:24 And he looked up and said, "I see men, but they look like trees, walking."
Mar 8:25 Then Jesus laid his hands on his eyes again; and he opened his eyes, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.

I don't know about you, but I don't think there was a period of days, weeks or even months and years that passed between verses 24 and 25. :PNevertheless, Jesus sometimes heals a person in stages.

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 10:39 PM
Do you read the Scripture? They were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2. That isn't true...Jesus heals people immediately. He doesn't heal through doctors, except through surgeons. It is all according to your faith in His promises.

When Moses disobeyed the Lord, God charged him with unbelief. Num 20:12. When the children of Israel disobeyed the Lord, they were not able to enter the Promised Land, because of unbelief. Heb 3:19. Unbelief comes out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12.

Disobedience = Unbelief
Obedience = Faith

Rom 16:26 refers to "the obedience of faith." If you want to read my post on "Yaweh Rapha: Healing Promises" you can go to (Link removed by board moderator)

If you do not believe the Word of God, you are in unbelief.

Desperaux
Oct 26th 2009, 10:40 PM
If God wants to heal everyone, then:

1) Why wasn't Jacob ever healed, up till his death? He's a Patriach after all, one of God's favoured.

Jacob wasn't sick.


2) Why wasn't Paul healed of his infirmity?

Paul wasn't sick.


3) Why did Jesus only heal one cripple at the Pool of Bethesda and not everyone there?

Not everyone came to Him.


Isn't this a direct contradiction of other views you presented on other threads, whereby some people said, if there were truly those who had the gifts of healing, why not clear out the hospitals, burn units, Down's syndrome kid's homes, school for the blind, etc and then preach the Gospel to them?

So if you believe

A) It is God's will to heal everyone
B) There are so many born-again Spirit filled people around
C) The gifts of healing are still in operation

why are doctors still making such a good living, and hospitals popping up everywhere?

Isn't that a humongous contradiction?

Illness is a common occurrence in this evil world we live in. It is not our mandate to minister healing to everyone. It is our mandate to bring people to Christ. A Christian can take authority over their own illnesses.

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 11:04 PM
Because Jacob was old...we are going to get new bodies one day. My whole life depends upon the Promises of God.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 26th 2009, 11:15 PM
Do you read the Scripture? They were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2. That isn't true...Jesus heals people immediately. He doesn't heal through doctors, except through surgeons. It is all according to your faith in His promises.


Jesus doesnt heal thru Doctors? only surgeons? wow...:hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:

Who was it that Recommended that person to the Surgeon?

I've had surgery before and before My Surgery I was referred to a specialist.. this referral came from another Dr. a General Practioner........ and this person who I was referred to....was a Doctor of Orthopedics.. and held a Degree in that field... He was also a surgeon...

so then when my Knee was fixed... then that wasn't from God?

this must be according to what you claim...

if it wasnt from God.. then I would still be hobbling around unable to walk..

but that's not the case today...

God can use Surgeons.. He can use Dr's to heal you...

or He could Heal you outright...

In my case.. He was in it from the Beginning.. guiding the Dr's referral to the Orthopedic Dr. who was also a surgeon...

this is done according to His Will for my life...

Whispering Grace
Oct 26th 2009, 11:24 PM
Ahem....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/Elle232002/deadhorse.gif?t=1256599364



















:D

herald
Oct 26th 2009, 11:36 PM
As I said before, the word, "Sorcery" in Revelations 9:21;18:23 is "pharmakeia," "pharmakeus," "pharmakon" which also means, sorcery, witchcraft, medication, pharmacy, a druggist or poisoner, a magician. Look in the Strong's Concordance.

Every drug has side effects...don't you see all the lawsuits against the drug companies?

But when we trust in the promises of God, there are no side effects. (link removed by moderator)

Otherwise, I would encourage you to read, Christ, The Healer by F.F. Bosworth. He had a healing ministry and teaches out of Scripture on divine healing. I am on a lot of other websites...so, I think we have covered this for now.

If you want more power in your life, be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

kay-gee
Oct 26th 2009, 11:41 PM
Then why did Peter experience Cornelious (who was filled with the Holy Spirit) then receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to prove to Peter that the Holy Spirit dwelled in him? Then Peter did the water baptism... why, just to go through the motions?

Also, we have those Paul met on the road, I believe it's Acts 19 :hmm:. They had already accepted Christ so they are filled and then they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as well. Clearly two separate events.

Unfortunately, we in this modern day cannot experience the second one. There are no apostles living to administer the passing on of it to us.
There is not a solitary example "NOT ONE" of these miraculous powers being transferred to anybody other than by an apostle.
all the best...

Desperaux
Oct 27th 2009, 12:15 AM
Jesus heals people immediately. He doesn't heal through doctors, except through surgeons.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/scratchhead.gif

Desperaux
Oct 27th 2009, 12:26 AM
Unfortunately, we in this modern day cannot experience the second one. There are no apostles living to administer the passing on of it to us.
There is not a solitary example "NOT ONE" of these miraculous powers being transferred to anybody other than by an apostle.
all the best...


What IS unfortunate is that some people cannot see that God doesn't live by a clock--the modern era isn't any different to Him than the immediate post-cross era when the Holy Spirit first came to us.

We don't need apostles to administer the Holy Spirit baptism. He baptizes us as we submit to Him. His is the power of the Son, who has promised us all that He will NEVER LEAVE US OR FORSAKE US, as it is Jesus' presence in us by His Holy Spirit, called the Comforter.

We are to allow Him to empower us for the furtherance of the Gospel, the enlarging of His Kingdom and the edification of His Church until He comes.

I am so grateful to God for His supplying power to His dear servants that have brought healing, truth, and leadership to the Body of Christ throughout the ages and have not been deterred by people who lack vision and refuse the baptism of Holy Spirit.

Moxie
Oct 27th 2009, 12:49 AM
Unfortunately, we in this modern day cannot experience the second one. There are no apostles living to administer the passing on of it to us.
There is not a solitary example "NOT ONE" of these miraculous powers being transferred to anybody other than by an apostle.
all the best...

Where in scripture is the gifts of the Holy Spirit given solely from apostle to person?

notuptome
Oct 27th 2009, 01:04 AM
Then why did Peter experience Cornelious (who was filled with the Holy Spirit) then receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to prove to Peter that the Holy Spirit dwelled in him? Then Peter did the water baptism... why, just to go through the motions?
Cornelius was a Gentile. Cornelius spoke in tongues as a sign to the Jews that were present so that they would recognize that Cornelius received the same Holy Spirit that the Jews witnessed at Pentacost. Acts 11:1-18 lays this out quite clearly. The reason for the tongues was as a sign to the Jews. Funny how that worked out. I do not see multiple baptisms. One Holy Spirit baptism and one water baptism. How does this support multiple baptisms?


Also, we have those Paul met on the road, I believe it's Acts 19 :hmm:. They had already accepted Christ so they are filled and then they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as well. Clearly two separate events.
The men about twelve of them had been to John for the baptism of repentance. Paul preaches Jesus and the guys get saved and evidence tongues. Jewish men evidencing the promise of Joel after they received a correct knowledge of Christ. How does this support multiple baptisms? I must be missing something here.

Baptised with the Holy Spirit unto salvation. Filled with the Holy Spirit to boldly serve the Lord. Those who engage in personal evangelism often find the Holy Spirit emboldens them to share the word of God with lost souls. The Holy Spirit has even been known to bring certain passages of scripture to mind that are useful in presenting the Lord to the unsaved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

webhead
Oct 27th 2009, 01:26 AM
Don't most other instances of the Holy Ghost Baptism reference tongues? Yes. So the only reason why we would be critical is because of our personal unbelief. In interpretation, we always should go with the weight of evidence.

Z.

No. I'll give you 5 to one scriptures involving the baptism where no [unknown] tongues are mentioned.

And by the way, [unknown] is in italics for a reason, read your footnotes . ;)

notuptome
Oct 27th 2009, 01:42 AM
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/scratchhead.gif
I can relate to that.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

watchinginawe
Oct 27th 2009, 04:24 AM
Charity alone is mentioned as never failing. That is important when we get to the last verse when charity is given as the greatest. It is really quite simple, it is because charity never faileth. But you insist on adding to the passage something it doesn't even hint at.


What would that be?What you are adding is that Paul is stating that faith, hope, and charity will be the result of what remains after "the perfect" when he simply says that they abide now.

Yes they do, and His point is that they will remain after Prophecy, knowledge , and tongues cease. He says now abideth these three. Well, when He said that prophecy, knowledge, and tongues also still remained. Obviously he is contrasting the two groups, otherwise he would have said now all of these remain.There is no "obviously", but rather only that which you are adding to the passage. If Paul had said "but then abideth faith, hope and charity", you might have something, but he said "but now".

Paul compares in the passage what it will be like then (the future) to what exists now (before the perfect comes). Then he sums it up by saying for now, until the perfect comes, faith, hope, and charity abide. If there is something obvious about the statement, it is that something will change regarding faith, hope, and charity when the perfect comes. For now they abide, but then... as I offered, charity is the one discussed that never fails, and Paul offers that charity is the greatest.

I really am surprised at your defense offered here regarding how since faith and hope still remain Paul can't be talking of the return of the Lord. I can only come to your deduction by first assuming as fact that the perfect has come and then applying circular logic in the conclusion regarding faith and hope as a proof of that. I suppose the assumption of the perfect having come is forced by some other imcompatiblity with other doctrines. That imcompatibility obviously is your belief that Spiritual gifts have ceased. So in your exegesis of the passage, you must be doing so with the answers already determined. I will see if I can demonstrate how this might lead one to a wrong interpretation:

This is one way to look at the passage using what I suppose is Butch5's partial systematic view of Bible:

1) Spiritual gifts have ceased.

Passage:

I Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul confirms here that which has happened, that Spiritual gifts were to cease. They were to cease and they have ceased, that explains why we don't see the miracles of the first century Church.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

That is interesting. The fact that Spiritual gifts have now ceased means that something which is perfect has already come. It must have, else Spiritual gifts would continue still. I wonder what this "perfect" is? It can't be Jesus, or the resurrection, or something that hasn't happened, it must have already happened because Spiritual gifts have already ceased.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Well, it didn't come in Paul's time. So it came sometime after Paul and before now. That which was to come will mature us, it will be our unmurky "mirror", it will be complete in knowledge. It must be the Bible! The scriptures were only finished in part at Paul's writing of this. More was to be revealed, more was to be written, therefore he states that he and the Church only knows in part at that time. But now we have the scriptures! Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Oops. Huh? These abide now too. :hmm: He must have meant that these would REMAIN afterward, else why would he mention it? Additionally, if these remain now, it proves that the perfect could not have been Jesus Christ (the end), else why would we need faith and hope?

Things learned by the passage:
1) Paul says that Spiritual gifts were to cease and the have
2) Therefore, that which is perfect has come
3) That which is perfect is the canon of scripture
4) Faith, hope, and charity will remain after the perfect comes
5) Because faith, hope, and charity remain, it proves that which is perfect could not be Jesus Christ (the end)


Now I don't claim to know all that you believe of that passage and the above is my invention, but I do intend to show a process by which one might arrive at what you seem to be claiming in the thread.

The above demonstrates the problem with systematic approaches to scripture. They interpret scripture for us. Of course there is some basis of a systematic approach to any successful study of the Bible. But these are usually applied in order to answer questions like: Are Spiritual gifts still relevant to the Church? But when we start answering questions like that as part of our systematic approach, then scripture is forced to mean something that it does not.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Oct 27th 2009, 06:43 AM
The teaching of the coming of the Lord is prominent all through the epistle. There isn't some mysterious other thing in Chapter 13 that Paul is telling the Church to wait for. When that which is perfect comes it means exactly that and not some obscure reference to the canon of scripture. We will be perfected in eternity with God.You have some problems with that scenario.

1. “the perfect” is in the neuter gender.There is no problem there. This is about "when", the events of that time, at the conclusion of the current state of things and the beginning of the perfect state of things. As I offered in one of the scriptures: I Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
2. Where does Scripture teach us that when Christ comes we will have complete knowledge?You will not see the obvious problem with this statement. I refuse to go any further than this passage to offer that teaching.

Also, it is not just His coming, but the end of those things, when all things are accomplished.
3. What need will there be for prophecy when Christ comes, especially if you have complete knowledge?I have no idea what this is in reference to. Of course there will be no need. Thus they will "fail", or "to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative". They will be useless then. There will be no need of inspiration. We won't be prophesying in heaven. Your question is the answer if you would but see it.
4. Luke records that the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of the apostles hands. This would indicate that the perfect must come before the death of the last apostle.This is your invention. Paul places no "deadline" as in before his death for the events to happen.

Paul does say though how long the gifts were to be active in the scripture I offered:

I Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Enriched by him: The source was God, to be richly furnished by Him, not Paul.

All utterances, all knowledge, and these by gifts from God. Consider the following color coding of the following passage for utterances, knowledge, and gift (the same greek words as above in I Corinthians 1:5-7):

I Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
...
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

So Paul begins his epistle thanking God for the gifts that were in operation at the Church of Corinth. Paul's expectation was that these gifts would richly furnish the Church to continue the ministry while waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is directly applicable to the whole of the epistle and it's purpose.
5. Paul anticipated the coming of the Perfect within his life time.Paul anticipated the coming of the Lord within his life time. However, Paul did not require that the Lord return within his life time.

6. Paul records in Ephesians,
...
Here is the perfect,

Ephesians 4:13 ( KJV )
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Now if you say that this is the second coming of Christ, I must ask you, will there be false teachers and afalse doctrine in the kingdom of God?

Ephesians 4:14 ( KJV )
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
So, again we see maturity is the issue. The purpose of “the perfect” is so that we are no longer children tossed to and fro, and carried about by every wind of doctrine. Would this really be a problem in the kingdom of God?
This passage speaks of a continuing work, even to this generation. It must continue, because children are tossed to and fro, and carried about by every wind of doctrine. There are those who lie in wait to deceive. So the work continues, there has been no "perfect" to come which does away with this work. There are other parallel references as well to be considered such as Romans 12. Regardless, I don't see how the passage offers how anything has changed from one operation to another. The passage is completely in line with what is offered in the teaching of I Corinthians 12. The work of the ministry continues.

God Bless!

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 27th 2009, 08:12 AM
Speaking to God in tongues IS prayer.

Yes but it ceased with the dying of the apostles and those they laid hands on. That was the point, and church history bears testimony to that.


No he isn't. Read the text again:

1 Corinthians 14:15-16
15 Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand.

CLEARLY there are two kinds of prayer and singing. One is natural which includes understanding, and one is in the spirit--tongues, where there is no natural understanding.

You need to read the context of my conversation with Zab carefully. I was explaining what it meant to "sing and pray with my understanding." Yes, I agree with you on this totally.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 27th 2009, 08:22 AM
I have the authority of Jesus Christ to declare His truth.

Did he appear to you and give you this sole right to pronounce judgement on doctrine? Which seminary are you teaching at?


I said:Every born again, Spirit filled believer?

Yes, unless they happen to be deceived in that area, and need to be corrected.

Again isn't that a blatant contradiction? If every born again, Spirit filled believer believes in your stand on doctrine, then how could any such believer hold to anything different, since every means all?



I said: So I guess there were no born again, Spirit filled believers from the time of the Reformation till 1900s then?

There have always been spirit-filled believers on the planet since Christ.

Clearly you haven't read church history then. I guess the church historians must be the minions of Satan.



I said:
Since you know that every "born-again, Spirit filled believer" reads it this way, you must have a list of their names and you must have:

1) Had a fail-safe way to qualify that each one of them was born-again and Spirit filled
2) Interviewed every last one on the planet and gotten their views on this

And everyone of us who disagrees with this reading is neither born-again nor Spirit filled?

You replied:
The brethren know each other by Who they profess. Those who deny the Holy Spirit and His work among the brethren are deceived. Not all unsaved, but they are in need of enlightenment by the Holy Spirit , whom sadly they grieve.

1) Even the demons profess that Christ is Lord, so no.

2) We do not deny the Holy Spirit, we deny the fake gifts and false miracles practiced among believers today. We believe that it is they who are decieved, going after the false gifts which, sadly:
a) Robs them of the power of real prayer. Instead they utter babble which God clearly will not tolerate.
b) Move them away from the real food and real bread which is the word of God to seek after the spectacular and the excitement, which is clearly against the grain of NT scripture.

And you still have not answered how it is you know that EVERY believer who is born again and spirit filled believe what you believe, unless you have personally interviewed all of them.

So again, no.



Acts 15:8
God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.

The Holy Spirit is a gift to us--and He comes to each one of us bearing great gifts.

He did during the apostolic era. But the bible clearly says the gifts have since ceased, and by seeking after them now you're setting yourself up for the deception of satan.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 27th 2009, 08:34 AM
Sometimes it is only by the wonderful grace of God that people receive a healing. Mostly, it is by faith--our own faith for our own healing, or by someone else's..as in the healing of the man who was let down through the roof of a house where Jesus healed him because of the faith of the friends.

So whose faith was it that healed Jairus daughter, and Lazarus? Pray tell. Because in the previous post, you asserted that the only time someone isn't healed is when they didn't have faith.

This, if I am not mistaken, is a doctrine coined by fake healer Benny Hinn when confronted over un-materialized healings.

Dear sister, please don't believe everything you hear or are taught. We have to search the Scriptures and think for ourselves and make certain if these doctrines we're being taught are true or false.


Jesus was known to have berated people for having little faith. Quantity is important, too, as well as quality.


Please show me Scripture proof of where Christ said that quantity of faith is important. Jesus never made any such statement.


Nevertheless, Jesus sometimes heals a person in stages.

Stages is different from days, weeks, months and years.

The alternate explaination, if I may present it, is very obvious, non-contradictory and is proven by facts.

1) The gifts have ceased
2) No one has the gift of healing, although God still heals through prayer
3) This is why no miraculous healings ever take place, as no amputee is ever healed
4) Even those who claim to believe in gifts of healing don't really believe it deep down. If they object, ask them to go heal an amputee in public in front of unbelievers, or try to raise the dead at a funeral procession. This is why no one really tries this kinda thing - they do know it is a lie deep down inside.
5) Those who will believe the gifts exist have to come up with a whole system of deception in order to convince themselves of a delusion. When healings obviously don't take place, they blame it on the person not having faith, which is not Scriptural. When the healings are tested and found to have been no healing at all, the healer thinks up all kinds of clever lies to cover it up to absolve himself.

It is very sad.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 27th 2009, 08:43 AM
Jacob wasn't sick.

Gen 32:31 The sun rose upon him as he passed Penuel, limping because of his hip.
Gen 32:32 Therefore to this day the people of Israel do not eat the sinew of the thigh that is on the hip socket, because he touched the socket of Jacob's hip on the sinew of the thigh.



Paul wasn't sick.
Gal 4:13 You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first,
Gal 4:14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.


I said:
3) Why did Jesus only heal one cripple at the Pool of Bethesda and not everyone there?
You replied:
Not everyone came to Him.So how did the cripple come to Jesus? Did he levitate?




Illness is a common occurrence in this evil world we live in. It is not our mandate to minister healing to everyone. It is our mandate to bring people to Christ. A Christian can take authority over their own illnesses.But in post #73 of this thread, you yourself said, and I quote you:

I think it is a major spiritual error to declare that Paul was never healed. It is an error that people use to excuse themselves from believing that God wants to heal everyone.

It is an excuse indeed, based on erroneous understanding.

How do you reconcile that obvious contradiction?

And by your definition, you said God wants to heal everyone, then why would they have to come to Jesus at the pool, when they're clearly sick? If God wanted to heal everyone, they would be healed regardless. Jesus would've went and healed them, it wasn't a huge place. So again, that's another contradiction.

ZAB
Oct 27th 2009, 12:32 PM
No. I'll give you 5 to one scriptures involving the baptism where no [unknown] tongues are mentioned.

And by the way, [unknown] is in italics for a reason, read your footnotes . ;)

Please inform me where the baptism of the Holy Ghost occurs without the person speaking in tongues. You have pointed out only one instance. You have 5 more? Do tell.

God bless,

Z.

p.s. please, let's make sure it's referencing the actual BAPTISM this time, and not something different.

kay-gee
Oct 27th 2009, 01:00 PM
Where in scripture is the gifts of the Holy Spirit given solely from apostle to person?

Acts 4:29-30 Acts 5:12 Acts 8:14-15 Acts 8:18 Acts 19:6 Acts 28:8-9 Romans 1:11 1Tim 4:14

Please show an example of a miraculous event taking place at other than the hands of an apostle, such as healing or raising dead. Please show an example of the gifts being transferred from one to another except by an apostle. It would be a blessing to me. I have never found it.

all the best...

kay-gee
Oct 27th 2009, 01:09 PM
What IS unfortunate is that some people cannot see that God doesn't live by a clock--the modern era isn't any different to Him than the immediate post-cross era when the Holy Spirit first came to us.

We don't need apostles to administer the Holy Spirit baptism. He baptizes us as we submit to Him. His is the power of the Son, who has promised us all that He will NEVER LEAVE US OR FORSAKE US, as it is Jesus' presence in us by His Holy Spirit, called the Comforter.

We are to allow Him to empower us for the furtherance of the Gospel, the enlarging of His Kingdom and the edification of His Church until He comes.

I am so grateful to God for His supplying power to His dear servants that have brought healing, truth, and leadership to the Body of Christ throughout the ages and have not been deterred by people who lack vision and refuse the baptism of Holy Spirit.

I go by biblical example. I have not seen an example of non-apostolic transmission of gifts or of non-apostolic miracles such as raising the dead and healing. If I can't prove it by scripture, I wont preach it.

all the best...

shepherdsword
Oct 27th 2009, 02:28 PM
I didn't say languages weren't a tongue. Interpretting isn't.

That's right..you said tongues has ceased. In which case all the rest of them will have to cease as well. The whole context of the gifts discourse refers to both known tongues and unknown tongues .Paul would have to specify here that he meant unknow tongues only..and Paul was precise. He didn't leave out that adjective by mistake. It's because "that which is perfect" is more than the complete collection of scripture as some, who through deluded isogesis try to twist it to mean. In any case I think it's totaly lolable that there is a group that tries to tell those of us who have the experience it that it isn't real.
Well not "lolable" it's more like I'm saddened. it's as if the new testament prophecy of having "a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof" has totally come to pass.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2009, 02:32 PM
Acts 4:29-30 Acts 5:12 Acts 8:14-15 Acts 8:18 Acts 19:6 Acts 28:8-9 Romans 1:11 1Tim 4:14

Please show an example of a miraculous event taking place at other than the hands of an apostle, such as healing or raising dead. Please show an example of the gifts being transferred from one to another except by an apostle. It would be a blessing to me. I have never found it.

all the best...Cornelious, his family and all his friends didn't have to have hands laid on them so with even that one example, the "ONLY APOSTLES" can lay on hands to tranfer this event is blown out of the water. They didn't have anyone lay on hands as it's been in most of the cases I've witnessed today when those who are Baptised with the Holy Spirit recieve this empowerment. This is how it was for me when the Lord led me to a new church and that first night, tore down all my resistance when the person sitting infront of me was praying and then the Holy Spirit filled this person and they began to pray and speak in tongues. Yeah, the Lord had worked in my heart enough over the previous year that I'd not run away or commit blasmephy when I saw this. I'll tell you what, when the Holy Spirit manifests... there is NO DOUBT, I cried the rest of the night cause of all my resistance to God and allowing Him freedom in my life. Since that day I have witnessed or expereinced all but one of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit manifest.

Look at all scripture and just that Biblical example presented with Cornelius is just one. Don't list scripture that you use to build up your opinion cause this one situation in the Bible topples your doctrine and is an example that counters it.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2009, 04:44 PM
it's as if the new testament prophecy of having "a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof" has totally come to pass.Amen, when I denied the power of God in my life He never manifested... I mean, why would He?

Thoughts:

Many have belief in God but not the faith in the power of God in their life or the lives of others. If they did, then they would not ignore testimony or disregard it cause the same or similar hasn't been experienced in their lives. They would have testimony that God supplies them with of how He's manifested in power in their lives as well

Jesus wouldn't walk into towns filled with people who don't have faith in the power of God.

People believe in God but don't have faith. If they did, just like some testimony in this thread of healings... the Lord would be free to heal, but since people believe He has healed, they don't have the faith He will or even can.

If they did have the faith needed then He'd walk right in and manifest. Just as the Bible shows us, He doesn't even enter towns without faith, just as today, He don't enter churches that also don't have the faith. Plenty of belief, but the elements of belief that empowers that belief (surrender, obedience, faith etc), isn't there. They don't allow the Holy Spirit to flow, to guide the service, the worship, to manifest... no freedom at all. Just their rules, doctrine, religion, and if this is deviated from, people complain.

Look at Peter and at the moment his faith was lessened and he began to sink in the water. Faith enables Jesus to work in the miraculous ways that He want's to, but like those town without faith, He'll not work in a way where He has to manifest any of the miraculous gifts.

Right this minute I'm listening to the song "What Faith Can Do" by Kutless as I type this post and it's all true.

People in this thread say that God can't and thus... He won't! People in this thread say that God "won't" and they find scripture to support their understanding... thus God CAN'T... if He could, He'd have walked right into those towns and did the miracles anyway!

Cause they don't have the faith for Him to work in a way that defies what their natural eyes, ears, and mind can perceive and/or accept.

He walked by whole towns, He'll walk by whole churches today as well until they have the faith to accept what He can do in power.

Like I said, He'll protect all these people from themselves so they don't commit blasphemy. They'll go on into eternity with Him, sure... cause of their belief in God but never will they experience the power of God in their lives cause of their faith or lack their of.

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

If the fact that prophecy is specified in this scripture... why? If it's ended or to end before our lifetime? Let us use them, we're told... why, if they stopped?

Makes no sense.

Also, in proportion to our faith... think about it!!!

1 Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+2:4-6&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28395a)] wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

In the power of God... faith in the power of God! Belief in God saves you, faith enables the Lord to work in your life and through you in other lives. Faith will enable us to be vessels for the Lord to use as He wills but a vessel is a person who allows the Lord to do the work, not shut Him down due to their understanding based on human and natural understanding of God. If they do, then He'll walk by you just as He did whole towns.

Do we what to KNOW God, or do we want to simply know ABOUT God?

notuptome
Oct 27th 2009, 06:30 PM
Makes no sense.

Also, in proportion to our faith... think about it!!!

1 Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+2:4-6&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-28395a)] wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

In the power of God... faith in the power of God! Belief in God saves you, faith enables the Lord to work in your life and through you in other lives. Faith will enable us to be vessels for the Lord to use as He wills but a vessel is a person who allows the Lord to do the work, not shut Him down due to their understanding based on human and natural understanding of God. If they do, then He'll walk by you just as He did whole towns.

Do we what to KNOW God, or do we want to simply know ABOUT God?
Peter walked with Christ yet his faith faltered many times. You cannot be saved by your faith. You cannot serve the Lord in your faith. You are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:16 Only Jesus Christ had perfect faith that did not waiver and withstood the testing. That is what Paul is describing in 1 Cor 2:5 It is Jesus Christ alone that is faithful even when we are not. Especially when we are not.

If you do not desire that which genuine then the tempter will provide a ready substitute almost good enough to pass for the real thing.

In the end times false teachers will lead many astray. They care not for the flock they seek only their own glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

webhead
Oct 27th 2009, 06:34 PM
Please inform me where the baptism of the Holy Ghost occurs without the person speaking in tongues. You have pointed out only one instance. You have 5 more? Do tell.

God bless,

Z.

p.s. please, let's make sure it's referencing the actual BAPTISM this time, and not something different.

You give me your scriptures, I already gave you over 5, where are all of your scriptures? You only have one, and you never even gave it.

Desperaux
Oct 27th 2009, 07:34 PM
Yes but it ceased with the dying of the apostles and those they laid hands on. That was the point, and church history bears testimony to that.


You shall have to do some readjustment there, friend, because I pray to my Father in tongues a lot. You are beleiving a lie. Church history doesn't bear out a great testimony about these things, because it spent many, many years suppressed by its leadership.

We don't want to go back to those dark years.


You need to read the context of my conversation with Zab carefully. I was explaining what it meant to "sing and pray with my understanding." Yes, I agree with you on this totally.

That's nice.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2009, 07:40 PM
Peter walked with Christ yet his faith faltered many times. You cannot be saved by your faith. You cannot serve the Lord in your faith. You are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:16 Only Jesus Christ had perfect faith that did not waiver and withstood the testing. That is what Paul is describing in 1 Cor 2:5 It is Jesus Christ alone that is faithful even when we are not. Especially when we are not. As many times that I've stumbled and fell, I know of Christ's faith. I pray there isn't a Christian who doesn't, in one way or another, know just how faithful Christ will be.


If you do not desire that which genuine then the tempter will provide a ready substitute almost good enough to pass for the real thing.

In the end times false teachers will lead many astray. They care not for the flock they seek only their own glory.

For the cause of Christ
RogerThat is why all Christian's must be instructed in the real gifts of the Holy Spirit and be able to discern the enemies imitation... which will increase as time goes on.

This still does not lessen the amount that God will pour out His power and empower vessels.

Look at it this way, the enemy imitates so if God acts, he imitates. Since the Lord is pouring out more, the enemy is imitating more. Look at the end times... the Lord will be doing all He does on a supernatural level for all the world to see and experience and the enemy will be doing all these signs and wonders to keep eye's on him as the doer of miracles :hmm:

Well, it's not the endtimes... close, but we're not in them yet. If the enemy is upping his imitation of signs and wonders, it's cause God is pouring out more as well.

I've lost count of people I've seen healed... I don't track it, all I know is that the Lord pours out His healing, tongues, prophecy, faith, wisdom, etc and the enemy imitates so we will continuously have these discussions due to the confusion. Add to this equation... the people who say the Lord don't do it anymore at all!! So this just compounds the problem and the enemy laughs and dances around and Jesus keeps walking by churches where the enemy is dancing.

In the meantime, what is the enemy doing? Causing churches to be passed by when Jesus looks in to see if they are accepting of being used in power. Some are rejecting this, and worse... some are tempted by the imitation and are enjoying the chaotic emotionalism, falling all over the floor and flopping around like fish, clucking like chickens and having competitions on who can cry out in tongues the loudest. :(

Nothing worse to hear a person bust out in tongues loud when the pastor is preaching and the Holy Spirit is moving him to speak boldly and suddenly tongues bursts out from a single person in church... and no one is a translator? If they don't stop this emotionalism they need to be removed cause it's not the Holy Spirit moving them but their flesh... all from the Holy Spirit is in order, not out of any order. How do we know this... cause Paul took the time to instruct us ALL while he was in Corinth.

Do that and the enemy will know who is incharge... Jesus is... and he'll know that his imitations aren't welcomed.

Desperaux
Oct 27th 2009, 07:54 PM
So whose faith was it that healed Jairus daughter, and Lazarus? Pray tell. Because in the previous post, you asserted that the only time someone isn't healed is when they didn't have faith.

This, if I am not mistaken, is a doctrine coined by fake healer Benny Hinn when confronted over un-materialized healings.

Dear sister, please don't believe everything you hear or are taught. We have to search the Scriptures and think for ourselves and make certain if these doctrines we're being taught are true or false.

I don;t beleive everything that comes down the pike. I don't believe you. I believe the Word of God and what the Holy Spirit teaches me.

I am sorry for you that you deny the gifts, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, for the empowerment that the Lord desires to give you, someone else will receive...with joy, I might add.

The problem with your view is that you have learned it at the hands of other denyers, and your understanding of the Scriptures is with the mind alone. Perhaps fear is what drives it--fear of joy and fulfillment beyond measure that comes with the baptism of the Holy Spirit that proves itself undeniable!


Please show me Scripture proof of where Christ said that quantity of faith is important. Jesus never made any such statement.
Every time Jesus addressed people with, "Oh ye of little faith!" is proof enough that we need to have a stronger faith to believe for some things.



Stages is different from days, weeks, months and years.
Not really.


The alternate explaination, if I may present it, is very obvious, non-contradictory and is proven by facts.

1) The gifts have ceasedOf course they haven't.


2) No one has the gift of healing, although God still heals through prayerI know people who have the gift of healing.


3) This is why no miraculous healings ever take place, as no amputee is ever healedSays you. Amputees have been healed just as anyone else, if they are sick.


4) Even those who claim to believe in gifts of healing don't really believe it deep down. If they object, ask them to go heal an amputee in public in front of unbelievers, or try to raise the dead at a funeral procession. This is why no one really tries this kinda thing - they do know it is a lie deep down inside.That is a lie. I believe in the healing power of God trough His servants. God can do anything! An amputee is no measure of the power of healing through a man or woman of God with that gift. Amputations are a method for healing! Your silly, weak-faith idea is only another way to mock God that atheists use, and is not worthy of consideration.



5) Those who will believe the gifts exist have to come up with a whole system of deception in order to convince themselves of a delusion. When healings obviously don't take place, they blame it on the person not having faith, which is not Scriptural. When the healings are tested and found to have been no healing at all, the healer thinks up all kinds of clever lies to cover it up to absolve himself.Delusion is not a problem for those who have great faith, for their faith is REWARDED and based on wonderful acts of God--not unlike the faith of David, who hearkened back to what God had done previously for and through him.

Even Jesus couldn't perform any healings or other miracles in His own home town among His own people, because of poor faith and unbelief. He won't perform them with you and others who share your unbelief because you don't believe, so of course your unbelief will deepen and harden. You need people to pray for you that God will open your heart and show you more of His marvelous works.

You need to be AWED by God, sir.


It is very sad.

Yes, unbelief and rejection of truth by professing Christians is entirely dismal.

livingwaters
Oct 27th 2009, 08:02 PM
I attend a Baptist church who believes in tongues, but really and truly doesn't....i think....I do speak to my Father in an unknown tongue as the Spirit gives me utterance....as for as edifying the Church in tongues, I have not been blessed, yet....but, if the Holy Spirit ever gives me a message for the church, HE will also provide the interpreter....NOTHING IS TOO GREAT FOR GOD TO DO!!! So, let us keep our minds open to the scripture and not to be content just to hear "man" talk....but not talk it all!!!!

Don't get me wrong, pastors are to be our shepherds, but sometimes, I am trully convinced they only go with the part of the Gospel that everyone wants to hear, not necessarily what everyone needs to hear...there are many, many great pastors, and I do rely on them for the Word to be presented, but sometimes the whole Word is not broken down and interpreted the way it was meant to be....now, that being said, I do believe that all born-again Christians will have to ask the One who knows all things, who was correct in their interpretations of HIS Word....cause NONE of us know ALL things!! Glory to God!:hug:

God bless!:hug:

Desperaux
Oct 27th 2009, 08:04 PM
Gen 32:31 The sun rose upon him as he passed Penuel, limping because of his hip.
Gen 32:32 Therefore to this day the people of Israel do not eat the sinew of the thigh that is on the hip socket, because he touched the socket of Jacob's hip on the sinew of the thigh.

There was nothing to heal. Jacob was a well man.



Gal 4:13 You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first,
Gal 4:14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.

Paul wasn't sick forever. He knew how to appropriate his own healing. Thank God!


So how did the cripple come to Jesus? Did he levitate?

There must have been many ill people at the pool's side. Jesus happened upon the man, I am sure. No one else seemed to be entreating Him for healing, except this one man who stood out. whether or not others were healed or others came to him, it makes no matter...most people came to Jesus or were brought to Him wherever he went.



But in post #73 of this thread, you yourself said, and I quote you:

I think it is a major spiritual error to declare that Paul was never healed. It is an error that people use to excuse themselves from believing that God wants to heal everyone.

It is an excuse indeed, based on erroneous understanding.

How do you reconcile that obvious contradiction?

And by your definition, you said God wants to heal everyone, then why would they have to come to Jesus at the pool, when they're clearly sick? If God wanted to heal everyone, they would be healed regardless. Jesus would've went and healed them, it wasn't a huge place. So again, that's another contradiction.


God does want to heal everyone. Make no mistake. There is no "regardless". Healing is found in Christ, for it is by His stripes we are healed.

You cannot cry "contradiction!" It is only people's lives who are walking contradictions. There is such a thing as divine health.

webhead
Oct 27th 2009, 08:17 PM
God does want to heal everyone. Make no mistake.

And all will be healed upon the resurrection. :pp

Desperaux
Oct 27th 2009, 08:22 PM
And all will be healed upon the resurrection. :pp

That's a "for sure"! And countless others are healed in this life as well, praise God!

Moxie
Oct 27th 2009, 08:25 PM
Peter walked with Christ yet his faith faltered many times. You cannot be saved by your faith. You cannot serve the Lord in your faith. You are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:16 Only Jesus Christ had perfect faith that did not waiver and withstood the testing. That is what Paul is describing in 1 Cor 2:5 It is Jesus Christ alone that is faithful even when we are not. Especially when we are not.

If you do not desire that which genuine then the tempter will provide a ready substitute almost good enough to pass for the real thing.

In the end times false teachers will lead many astray. They care not for the flock they seek only their own glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Faith is what it's all about. We are saved through faith. We are justified and have peace with our Lord, Jesus Christ when our faith is put in Him. The only way we can truly serve the Lord is through Him; we aren't likely to Worship and serve Him only if we don't first have faith. Likewise, we aren't likely to see God at work in our lives unless we first have faith.

I grew up in a church that did not believe Christ resided within us; the Holy Spirit left after all the apostles died and we are only left here to read, follow the Word of God do strive to do our best to follow the Bible. Guess what? I very seldom saw God, His power, His glory, His manifestations. I never knew the power of God, His Holiness, His faithfulness until I opened my own mind and heart to Him through Faith. Do I falter...you betcha' I do but He is faithful in picking me up, in growing me into the person I need to be so my life can glorify Him.

Dismission of the Holy Spirit's power puts people on shaky ground in my opinion. We are called to have faith in Him and in His Word that clearly tells us that the Holy Spirit is still at work.

Vhayes
Oct 27th 2009, 09:02 PM
Christ is Who saves us. Grace is the conduit through which our faith flows to Christ.

It isn't out faith that saves us, it's He in Whom we place our faith.

notuptome
Oct 27th 2009, 09:20 PM
As many times that I've stumbled and fell, I know of Christ's faith. I pray there isn't a Christian who doesn't, in one way or another, know just how faithful Christ will be.
No argument here from me.


That is why all Christian's must be instructed in the real gifts of the Holy Spirit and be able to discern the enemies imitation... which will increase as time goes on.
Here I suspect we speak the same words but have entirely different meanings for the words we use. What some claim as real gifts I see as flamboyant distractions to the real ministry of Christ.


This still does not lessen the amount that God will pour out His power and empower vessels.
So much more is accomplished in the unseen operations of the Holy Spirit than what some think is done in the power displays they claim.


Look at it this way, the enemy imitates so if God acts, he imitates. Since the Lord is pouring out more, the enemy is imitating more. Look at the end times... the Lord will be doing all He does on a supernatural level for all the world to see and experience and the enemy will be doing all these signs and wonders to keep eye's on him as the doer of miracles :hmm:
God is interested in the saving of souls not in providing entertainment for curious audiences in search of the next new thing.


Well, it's not the endtimes... close, but we're not in them yet. If the enemy is upping his imitation of signs and wonders, it's cause God is pouring out more as well.
It is the end times. Apostacy abounds.


I've lost count of people I've seen healed... I don't track it, all I know is that the Lord pours out His healing, tongues, prophecy, faith, wisdom, etc and the enemy imitates so we will continuously have these discussions due to the confusion. Add to this equation... the people who say the Lord don't do it anymore at all!! So this just compounds the problem and the enemy laughs and dances around and Jesus keeps walking by churches where the enemy is dancing.
The church has lost her vision. It's not about gifts it's about evangelism. Nothing is more important than proclaiming the gospel to the lost and perishing.


In the meantime, what is the enemy doing? Causing churches to be passed by when Jesus looks in to see if they are accepting of being used in power. Some are rejecting this, and worse... some are tempted by the imitation and are enjoying the chaotic emotionalism, falling all over the floor and flopping around like fish, clucking like chickens and having competitions on who can cry out in tongues the loudest. :(
Anything that distracts from the gospel message and the burden on saints to evangelize is not of God.


Nothing worse to hear a person bust out in tongues loud when the pastor is preaching and the Holy Spirit is moving him to speak boldly and suddenly tongues bursts out from a single person in church... and no one is a translator? If they don't stop this emotionalism they need to be removed cause it's not the Holy Spirit moving them but their flesh... all from the Holy Spirit is in order, not out of any order. How do we know this... cause Paul took the time to instruct us ALL while he was in Corinth.
The Lord charged all to tell every soul they must be born again or they will perish in the everlasting fires of hell.


Do that and the enemy will know who is incharge... Jesus is... and he'll know that his imitations aren't welcomed.
The enemy has always known who is in charge. It is those who claim to know Christ that seem to have lost sight of why we are here. All the theatrical antics of tongues and healings only distract from the primary work of the church. To preach Jesus to a world in darkness.

Does God heal? Yes, does He heal the wicked as well as the righteous? Yes again. Does God give wisdom? Does God give some to teach? To pastor a chruch? Does God give some to witness through suffering? Does God give some to help those who cannot do for themselves?

Of the Lord it is said He hath no form nor comliness that we should desire Him. God uses the meek the insignificant the weak to accomplish His will. He who would be first shall be last in the kingdom. Some measure spirituality in gifts of the Holy Spirit. God says to judge righteous judgments. By their fruits you shall know them. The modern contemporary church with it's rock music and open worship style certainly draws a crowd but doesn't produce lasting fruit. Seeds that fall on the wayside and the fowls of the air carry them away. Jesus described the religious zealots of the day as whited sepulchers filled with dead mens bones.

What is a man profited if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul? What shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The fields are white unto harvest but the laborors are few. Truely the Lords harvest is plenteous. Time to get off the stage and get out on the street corner and warn the lost that there is a hell to pay for rejecting Christ. Get up from the bed of ease and cast aside the can of beer and go tell your neighbor he's a sinner and Christ died that he might have forgivness and receive eternal life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Didn't mean to dump all that on you personally but it's been building up and needed to come out.

goykodesh
Oct 27th 2009, 10:00 PM
It isn't out faith that saves us, it's He in Whom we place our faith.

Excellent!

Pro 30:5
(5) Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

notuptome
Oct 27th 2009, 10:33 PM
Faith is what it's all about. We are saved through faith. We are justified and have peace with our Lord, Jesus Christ when our faith is put in Him. The only way we can truly serve the Lord is through Him; we aren't likely to Worship and serve Him only if we don't first have faith. Likewise, we aren't likely to see God at work in our lives unless we first have faith.

I grew up in a church that did not believe Christ resided within us; the Holy Spirit left after all the apostles died and we are only left here to read, follow the Word of God do strive to do our best to follow the Bible. Guess what? I very seldom saw God, His power, His glory, His manifestations. I never knew the power of God, His Holiness, His faithfulness until I opened my own mind and heart to Him through Faith. Do I falter...you betcha' I do but He is faithful in picking me up, in growing me into the person I need to be so my life can glorify Him.

Dismission of the Holy Spirit's power puts people on shaky ground in my opinion. We are called to have faith in Him and in His Word that clearly tells us that the Holy Spirit is still at work.
We are saved by grace. God gives us grace to have faith in the finished work of Christ. How can we believe unto salvation apart from the grace of God and the faith of Jesus Christ.

I do not dismiss the Holy Spirit quite the opposite I attribute all that is good that may be in me to the work of the Holy Spirit. My faith is of no merit it is the faith of Christ that strengthens me and equips me to serve Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Oct 27th 2009, 10:43 PM
Christ is Who saves us. Grace is the conduit through which our faith flows to Christ.

It isn't out faith that saves us, it's He in Whom we place our faith.
Poetic perhaps but what is our faith? Who is man that Thou art mindful of him? Grace is Gods provision of that which we could never attain. Forgivness of sin. Grace is the free gift of eternal life. God's grace even provides the faith we need to believe what He has written. We receive our faith from Gods word and not from ourselves.

The object of our faith is also the source of our faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kay-gee
Oct 27th 2009, 10:53 PM
Cornelious, his family and all his friends didn't have to have hands laid on them so with even that one example, the "ONLY APOSTLES" can lay on hands to tranfer this event is blown out of the water. They didn't have anyone lay on hands as it's been in most of the cases I've witnessed today when those who are Baptised with the Holy Spirit recieve this empowerment. This is how it was for me when the Lord led me to a new church and that first night, tore down all my resistance when the person sitting infront of me was praying and then the Holy Spirit filled this person and they began to pray and speak in tongues. Yeah, the Lord had worked in my heart enough over the previous year that I'd not run away or commit blasmephy when I saw this. I'll tell you what, when the Holy Spirit manifests... there is NO DOUBT, I cried the rest of the night cause of all my resistance to God and allowing Him freedom in my life. Since that day I have witnessed or expereinced all but one of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit manifest.

Look at all scripture and just that Biblical example presented with Cornelius is just one. Don't list scripture that you use to build up your opinion cause this one situation in the Bible topples your doctrine and is an example that counters it.

That's funny. I always thought that Peter was an apostle? Who was present at the house of Cornelius when this event occured? I wonder why this did not happen BEFORE Peter arrived there? This event paralells the event on Pentecost. Who was present there? Peter! Imagine that. Was Peter or any other apostle there when your friend had his tongues session at your church?

I have a question for you. Both events...Pentecost and Cornelius had a purpose in the plan of God. What do you suppose it was?

all the best...

Butch5
Oct 27th 2009, 10:54 PM
What you are adding is that Paul is stating that faith, hope, and charity will be the result of what remains after "the perfect" when he simply says that they abide now.There is no "obviously", but rather only that which you are adding to the passage. If Paul had said "but then abideth faith, hope and charity", you might have something, but he said "but now".

Paul compares in the passage what it will be like then (the future) to what exists now (before the perfect comes). Then he sums it up by saying for now, until the perfect comes, faith, hope, and charity abide. If there is something obvious about the statement, it is that something will change regarding faith, hope, and charity when the perfect comes. For now they abide, but then... as I offered, charity is the one discussed that never fails, and Paul offers that charity is the greatest.

I really am surprised at your defense offered here regarding how since faith and hope still remain Paul can't be talking of the return of the Lord. I can only come to your deduction by first assuming as fact that the perfect has come and then applying circular logic in the conclusion regarding faith and hope as a proof of that. I suppose the assumption of the perfect having come is forced by some other imcompatiblity with other doctrines. That imcompatibility obviously is your belief that Spiritual gifts have ceased. So in your exegesis of the passage, you must be doing so with the answers already determined. I will see if I can demonstrate how this might lead one to a wrong interpretation:

This is one way to look at the passage using what I suppose is Butch5's partial systematic view of Bible:

1) Spiritual gifts have ceased.

Passage:

I Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul confirms here that which has happened, that Spiritual gifts were to cease. They were to cease and they have ceased, that explains why we don't see the miracles of the first century Church.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

That is interesting. The fact that Spiritual gifts have now ceased means that something which is perfect has already come. It must have, else Spiritual gifts would continue still. I wonder what this "perfect" is? It can't be Jesus, or the resurrection, or something that hasn't happened, it must have already happened because Spiritual gifts have already ceased.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Well, it didn't come in Paul's time. So it came sometime after Paul and before now. That which was to come will mature us, it will be our unmurky "mirror", it will be complete in knowledge. It must be the Bible! The scriptures were only finished in part at Paul's writing of this. More was to be revealed, more was to be written, therefore he states that he and the Church only knows in part at that time. But now we have the scriptures! Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Oops. Huh? These abide now too. :hmm: He must have meant that these would REMAIN afterward, else why would he mention it? Additionally, if these remain now, it proves that the perfect could not have been Jesus Christ (the end), else why would we need faith and hope?

Things learned by the passage:
1) Paul says that Spiritual gifts were to cease and the have
2) Therefore, that which is perfect has come
3) That which is perfect is the canon of scripture
4) Faith, hope, and charity will remain after the perfect comes
5) Because faith, hope, and charity remain, it proves that which is perfect could not be Jesus Christ (the end)


Now I don't claim to know all that you believe of that passage and the above is my invention, but I do intend to show a process by which one might arrive at what you seem to be claiming in the thread.

The above demonstrates the problem with systematic approaches to scripture. They interpret scripture for us. Of course there is some basis of a systematic approach to any successful study of the Bible. But these are usually applied in order to answer questions like: Are Spiritual gifts still relevant to the Church? But when we start answering questions like that as part of our systematic approach, then scripture is forced to mean something that it does not.

God Bless!

Well, it seems you have missed the point of my post. Did you take into account any of the evidence that I supplied from Scripture? You seem to think I have drawn a conclusion based on systematic evaluation of Spiritual gifts. I also notice you did not answer any of the objections that were raised by your interpretation of the passage. If you think what I have stated is incorrect, why not show how. Instead of giving your interpretation of the passage show where mine is incorrect. Maybe for starters you could explain how a person would receive the gifts today and please supply Scriptural support? Since Luke says that they are received through the laying on of the aposltes hands I am very curious to see how you would have someone today receiving them.

How about prophecy? John said if anyone adds to or subtracts from the book of Revelation, God will add to him he plagues, or will take away his part from the book of life. After telling John to write that, is God then going to give prophetic words to be spoken?

goykodesh
Oct 27th 2009, 11:26 PM
After telling John to write that, is God then going to give prophetic words to be spoken?

That would be a resounding 'no.'

Heb 1:1-2
(1) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
(2) has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

Jesus the Messiah revealed to John the final prophecy of the time to come. He is the finisher of all things. The first and the last in all things. No one can add to the Word of the Most Holy. We need to listen to Him. Amen.

watchinginawe
Oct 27th 2009, 11:28 PM
Well, it seems you have missed the point of my post. Did you take into account any of the evidence that I supplied from Scripture? You seem to think I have drawn a conclusion based on systematic evaluation of Spiritual gifts. I also notice you did not answer any of the objections that were raised by your interpretation of the passage.I believe these were addressed in my last (additional) post to you. It was even too long in the two posts I offered.

God Bless!

Butch5
Oct 27th 2009, 11:29 PM
watchinginawe---There is no problem there. This is about "when", the events of that time, at the conclusion of the current state of things and the beginning of the perfect state of things. As I offered in one of the scriptures: I Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

You’ll need to use Greek grammar to support this claim.




watchinginawe---You will not see the obvious problem with this statement. I refuse to go any further than this passage to offer that teaching.

Also, it is not just His coming, but the end of those things, when all things are accomplished.


So then it is not taught in Scripture correct? So, nowhere in Scripture are we told that we will ever have complete knowledge. Yet we do know From Scripture that we would have the complete faith.




watchinginawe---I have no idea what this is in reference to. Of course there will be no need. Thus they will "fail", or "to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative". They will be useless then. There will be no need of inspiration. We won't be prophesying in heaven. Your question is the answer if you would but see it.


I can’t remember my exact point now but this comes to mind.
Why even tell the Corinthians that prophecy and knowledge would fail if it was not until Christ comes. Why would you tell them hey, when things are perfect you will not need prophecy and knowledge? Wouldn’t that be something they would already know? Wouldn’t that be akin to saying hey, if you go into that water you are going to get wet? Kind of like me saying when I die I am not going to speak to anyone.




watchinginawe---This is your invention. Paul places no "deadline" as in before his death for the events to happen.

Paul does say though how long the gifts were to be active in the scripture I offered:

I Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Enriched by him: The source was God, to be richly furnished by Him, not Paul.

All utterances, all knowledge, and these by gifts from God. Consider the following color coding of the following passage for utterances, knowledge, and gift (the same greek words as above in I Corinthians 1:5-7):

I Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
...
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

So Paul begins his epistle thanking God for the gifts that were in operation at the Church of Corinth. Paul's expectation was that these gifts would richly furnish the Church to continue the ministry while waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is directly applicable to the whole of the epistle and it's purpose.

My invention? I didn’t write it Luke did. He said that the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of the apostle’s hands. Therefore after the death of the last apostle no one would be able to have them lay their hands on them.

What you have posted here does not prove the gifts continue, all it proves is that the gifts were present and that Corinthians had them while they waited on the Lord.






watchinginawe---This passage speaks of a continuing work, even to this generation. It must continue, because children are tossed to and fro, and carried about by every wind of doctrine. There are those who lie in wait to deceive. So the work continues, there has been no "perfect" to come which does away with this work. There are other parallel references as well to be considered such as Romans 12. Regardless, I don't see how the passage offers how anything has changed from one operation to another. The passage is completely in line with what is offered in the teaching of I Corinthians 12. The work of the ministry continues.
You didn’t answer the question.

Sorry friend, this passage is clear. Paul says until we come to a perfect man. No more tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The purpose of the perfect coming is so that we are not tossed to a fro by every wind of doctrine. If we say the perfect is the coming of Christ then what Paul said makes no sense, simply because in Christ’s kingdom there won’t be false teachers or false doctrine. The false teaching and false doctrine exists before Christ returns, now. This is when we need the perfect so that now, we will not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, not when we enter into the kingdom of God.

Butch5
Oct 27th 2009, 11:33 PM
That's right..you said tongues has ceased. In which case all the rest of them will have to cease as well. The whole context of the gifts discourse refers to both known tongues and unknown tongues .Paul would have to specify here that he meant unknow tongues only..and Paul was precise. He didn't leave out that adjective by mistake. It's because "that which is perfect" is more than the complete collection of scripture as some, who through deluded isogesis try to twist it to mean. In any case I think it's totaly lolable that there is a group that tries to tell those of us who have the experience it that it isn't real.
Well not "lolable" it's more like I'm saddened. it's as if the new testament prophecy of having "a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof" has totally come to pass.

Well, I've presented the evidence in the last two threads for my position, you are welcome to look over it if you like but I really am about finished with the discussion. The evidence just gets ignored and I just get whatever people want to believe.

Desperaux
Oct 27th 2009, 11:41 PM
Well, I've presented the evidence in the last two threads for my position, you are welcome to look over it if you like but I really am about finished with the discussion. The evidence just gets ignored and I just get whatever people want to believe.

The thing is, there is no evidence for your side.

goykodesh
Oct 27th 2009, 11:52 PM
Heb 1:1-2
(1) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
(2) has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

This is evidence enough for me. I only listen to the Words of the Holy One of Israel, the teachings / writings of His Apostles, and the Revelation of John, who have abundantly provided as authority for their teachings, Scriptures from Torah, Prophets and the Writings. Any additions to the Word of God must pass this test of authenticity.

Most of us can't even find 1/10th of the Tanakh references contained in the Gospels and writings of the NT that establish it's authority and valitity. Let us not boast. We have much work ahead of us.

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 12:12 AM
Heb 1:1-2
(1) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
(2) has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

This is evidence enough for me. I only listen to the Words of the Holy One of Israel, the teachings / writings of His Apostles, and the Revelation of John, who have abundantly provided as authority for their teachings, Scriptures from Torah, Prophets and the Writings.

Yes, and Jesus still speaks today through His Holy Spirit, and uses the vehicle of the prophetic word to do so in many of His servants.

Acts 2:17
‘In the last days,’ God says,
‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.

Romans 12:6
In his grace, God has given us different gifts for doing certain things well. So if God has given you the ability to prophesy, speak out with as much faith as God has given you.

1 Corinthians 14:39
So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don’t forbid speaking in tongues.

Slug1
Oct 28th 2009, 12:15 AM
Well, I've presented the evidence in the last two threads for my position, you are welcome to look over it if you like but I really am about finished with the discussion. The evidence just gets ignored and I just get whatever people want to believe.God counters your evidence cause all the gifts are still active in the Body of Christ today.

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 12:19 AM
God counters your evidence cause all the gifts are still active in the Body of Christ today.

That's right! We witness the gifts in operation in the lives of those who love Jesus Christ and obey Him with their lives and it is a blessing to see the Church at work in the world the way God intends!

It is as people walk in obedience in their gifting that the church will advance triumphant!

Vhayes
Oct 28th 2009, 12:37 AM
What is the greatest gift? What should we all be striving for?

Slug1
Oct 28th 2009, 12:40 AM
To preach Jesus to a world in darkness.

Just about all you said I have said at least once in the 4 years on this board ;)

So dump all ya want.

I do want to comment on the quote above... you are exactly right, we are to preach Jesus to a world that is in darkness but He also gave us very specific instructions on what to do and to do it, you must allow the Holy Spirit to empower you.

We are to do as He did and as the Apostles did otherwise the instructions would not include to speak in new tongues, heal, raise the dead, tread on serpents etc. People will hear and see and then believe. Sure many do without this but then, since they never experienced a manifestation they go on believing but without the faith that the Lord will empower them. Some will not believe as we even read in the Bible, even when witnessing a manifestation.

The enemy has people deceived so badly that when people who already do believe in God, when they actually see or hear of God in action (manifesting) they don't believe it... yeah, this is a world in darkness when the Holy Spirit beams His light, enables a person to give a prophetic word or heal someone and people say it's of satan. satan even temps us with challenges and makes us demand to see a healer walk into a hospital and heal all in the hospital KNOWING full well that any given hospital is full of faithless people (even though many may believe in God) and no healing can happen at all. Some pridefull healer falls for this and makes the attempt and we have doubt that any of the gifts are active any more. Then we have a healer with no more anointing and a serious need for restoration.

God has told us not to test Him and people fall into the enemies temptation to do just that and since they don't experience... then God don't have healers anymore.

Well, if that hospital was full of faithful believers hungry for God and have been praying for healing then it would be God sending a humble healer and they would heal a majority of the people and then they would leave not caring for any fame or even wanting people to talk about what the Lord did to the public, instead... just for them all to give thanks and glory to God as they walked off.

amazzin
Oct 28th 2009, 01:03 AM
Oye Vay. Where to begin,....again!

webhead
Oct 28th 2009, 01:38 AM
Oye Vay. Where to begin,....again!

Good luck. :pray:

watchinginawe
Oct 28th 2009, 02:09 AM
You’ll need to use Greek grammar to support this claim."The end" as in the time appointed and the events that take place are gender neutral. When "that which is perfect" is come. When "the end" is come.

As I offered, the theme of the Church being equiped with Spiritual gifts while waiting for the Lord's return is prevalent in the whole epistle. The reference to "that which is perfect" is not just lobbed out there by Paul in Chapter 13 without explanation. Paul picks back up the thought again in Chapter 15 after teaching on the operation of the gifts in the Church. A simple outline would be:

Nature of Spiritual gifts - Chapter 12
Love, the more excellent way - Chapter 13
Spiritual gifts are for this age only
Spiritual gifts are rendered useless in the coming age
Love is eminent in this age and in the coming age

The operation of Spiritual gifts in this age - Chatper 14
The coming age - Chapter 15
And that gets us to the verse I offered in that Chapter: I Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So Paul doesn't leave us guessing. Paul also talks of the imperfections of this age that are perfected in the age to come and shows us a mystery regarding how this age will begin to come to an end:

I Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
So then it is not taught in Scripture correct? So, nowhere in Scripture are we told that we will ever have complete knowledge. Yet we do know From Scripture that we would have the complete faith.You did not disappoint Butch. Paul is teaching it right there in I Corinthians 13. That is why I refuse to go and look up other passages that might speak to the subject. If you reject this one, you can simply toss them all out. But it certainly is taught in I Corinthians 13, which is part of scripture.
I can’t remember my exact point now but this comes to mind.
Why even tell the Corinthians that prophecy and knowledge would fail if it was not until Christ comes. Why would you tell them hey, when things are perfect you will not need prophecy and knowledge? Wouldn’t that be something they would already know? Wouldn’t that be akin to saying hey, if you go into that water you are going to get wet? Kind of like me saying when I die I am not going to speak to anyone.Paul is at the conclusion of his "more excellent way" in that portion of Chapter 13. If you read the whole chapter you will see why he offers it, he is exalting love over Spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are temporal in nature, love is not. As you know, the original epistle isn't divided into chapters. We find at the beginning of Chapter 14 what would have been just below this portion of scripture: I Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. The New Life Bible puts it like this: I Corinthians 14:1 You should want to have this love. You should want the gifts of the Holy Spirit and most of all to be able to speak God's Word.


So Paul's "more excellent way" regarding Spiritual gifts is that we should first pursue the love necessary for their proper operation. With that pre-requisite, Paul teaches on the operation of the Spiritual gifts.
My invention? I didn’t write it Luke did. He said that the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of the apostle’s hands. Therefore after the death of the last apostle no one would be able to have them lay their hands on them.Are you suggesting that Paul tells them to "desire spiritual gifts" that they can not receive? Must Paul come up to Corinth every time a new convert is added to the Church? They are called Spiritual gifts for a reason. Paul offers in his teaching:

I Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Where is the laying on of hands in the above? :dunno: Apparently, here is how one receives Spiritual gifts: Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. Paul teaches that one understands and desires Spiritual gifts in the right context to receive them.
What you have posted here does not prove the gifts continue, all it proves is that the gifts were present and that Corinthians had them while they waited on the Lord. Read it any way you want. Paul concluded Chapter 14 with:

I Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Those who believe in the gifts of the Spirit will submit themselves to Paul's teachings on the subject the same as the commandments of the Lord.
Sorry friend, this passage is clear. Paul says until we come to a perfect man. No more tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The purpose of the perfect coming is so that we are not tossed to a fro by every wind of doctrine. If we say the perfect is the coming of Christ then what Paul said makes no sense, simply because in Christ’s kingdom there won’t be false teachers or false doctrine. The false teaching and false doctrine exists before Christ returns, now. This is when we need the perfect so that now, we will not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, not when we enter into the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


The passage is clear, and your interpretation is convenient. I could do as you see fit with I Corinthians and easily dismiss the entire book as only pertinent to the Ephesians at the time of the writing and thus having nothing to do with the Corinthians, or us. But we know that the scriptures teach in many places the burden of ministry, even back through the Old Testament. Ministers are called by God from generation to generation of the Church, "even as many as the LORD our God shall call".

You suggested that Ephesians 4:11 was a one time deal, thus "He gave", and no longer gives. "Gave" is in the aorist tense, and as I offered, it could just as easily be written "He began to give", indicating the beginning of a time of continuance, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: . So the "until we all come" hasn't come yet in that full sense. God hasn't discontinued the "perfecting of the saints" and the "work of the ministry" (v. 12) and thus we have not all "come into the unity of the faith". It is a blessing that God has provided us the scriptures by which we can judge all doctrines. But the scriptues were present in Paul's time also, at least as much so as he offered to Timothy:

II Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.


So you see, Paul felt that Timothy was fully equiped already to minister in the "perfecting of the saints". And if you will see it, Paul actually thinks things will devolve into a worse state of things and not a better state of things.

Regardless, can you show me in the above passage in Ephesians where the "pefect" which will come is mentioned? You said:
This is when we need the perfect so that now, we will not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, not when we enter into the kingdom of God.What does the scripture in Ephesians 4 state that God gives for the "perfecting of the saints" so that we will not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine? The fact is the passage doesn't say that ministry was to be replaced by scripture. Not even close. II Timothy indicates that what was needed for the teaching of sound doctrine was already present and would suffice in his ministry.

God Bless!

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 28th 2009, 02:27 AM
Amputations are a method for healing! Your silly, weak-faith idea is only another way to mock God that atheists use, and is not worthy of consideration.


Ahhh! I recognize that one! And when you pray for a person who has cancer, for example, and if that person dies, you'll also claim that the person was actually healed, because death is a form of healing, the person is now set free from his diseased body!

Oh boy, the deceptions never change all through church history do they? :rofl:The charlatans still use the same old tricks over and over again.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 28th 2009, 02:30 AM
Even Jesus couldn't perform any healings or other miracles in His own home town among His own people, because of poor faith and unbelief.

Jesus could not do NOTHING. Read the verse carefully.

If Jesus could create the Universe from nothing, he could do anything he wanted to. Please do not blaspheme the Lord this way.

watchinginawe
Oct 28th 2009, 02:58 AM
Jesus could not do NOTHING. Read the verse carefully.

If Jesus could create the Universe from nothing, he could do anything he wanted to. Please do not blaspheme the Lord this way.Another way to say it is that because of their unbelief, the Father did not will it. Jesus always did perfectly the will of the Father, thus He could not do any mighty works there.

God Bless!

webhead
Oct 28th 2009, 03:17 AM
Another way to say it is that because of their unbelief, the Father did not will it. Jesus always did perfectly the will of the Father, thus He could not do any mighty works there.

God Bless!

This is indeed the correct way to phrase it.

Slug1
Oct 28th 2009, 10:52 AM
This is indeed the correct way to phrase it.Which is why today many churches don't experience the power of God manifesting. Cause they don't have the faith, they do believe in God but don't have the faith and Jesus walks right by to the next church across town that does... a church where people allow the Holy Spirit freedom and they worship and praise by the leading of the Holy Spirit and they speak in tongues, speak prophecy, receive healing etc.

Slug1
Oct 28th 2009, 12:10 PM
Butch, got a question for you...

Let me first post this scripture:

1 Cor 1:
Spiritual Gifts at Corinth


4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, my question involves an understanding among us, so let me start with this... When Paul addressed the people of Corinth, how many people is he addressing... one church with a few people or all the churches "of God (v2)" in the entire country, territory, region, whatever "Corinth" is made up of?

I will assume we understand that He is speaking to all the churches of God in Corinth. So He's speaking to the "Body of Christ" in Corinth... correct?

My main question... since Corinth is operating in the Gift's of the Holy Spirit, and we all understand that they misunderstood the use... thus the reason for Paul to explain the proper use... how did all these people find themselves able to even utilize a gift that you say MUST be transfered to them though an Apostle?

ummm, yeah... I bold and underlined those three words to shine the focus on something I'll touch on later.

notuptome
Oct 28th 2009, 12:57 PM
Just about all you said I have said at least once in the 4 years on this board ;)
I will continue to declare the word of God as long as the Lord allows me to remain here. So you will likely hear it again and again.


So dump all ya want.
I knew you would not take offense but I wanted to allow others to know that I'm not picking on you personally. I am very concerned about the broader issues in the matter of tongues and gifts as some perceive them. I think I enabled that PM thing for you as well.


I do want to comment on the quote above... you are exactly right, we are to preach Jesus to a world that is in darkness but He also gave us very specific instructions on what to do and to do it, you must allow the Holy Spirit to empower you.

We are to do as He did and as the Apostles did otherwise the instructions would not include to speak in new tongues, heal, raise the dead, tread on serpents etc. People will hear and see and then believe. Sure many do without this but then, since they never experienced a manifestation they go on believing but without the faith that the Lord will empower them. Some will not believe as we even read in the Bible, even when witnessing a manifestation.
I hope you are not relying on Mark 16:17-20 as the basis for your statement.

In biblical terms seeing is not believing. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.


The enemy has people deceived so badly that when people who already do believe in God, when they actually see or hear of God in action (manifesting) they don't believe it... yeah, this is a world in darkness when the Holy Spirit beams His light, enables a person to give a prophetic word or heal someone and people say it's of satan. satan even temps us with challenges and makes us demand to see a healer walk into a hospital and heal all in the hospital KNOWING full well that any given hospital is full of faithless people (even though many may believe in God) and no healing can happen at all. Some pridefull healer falls for this and makes the attempt and we have doubt that any of the gifts are active any more. Then we have a healer with no more anointing and a serious need for restoration.
Our adversary does his best work in the pews of the church building. Paul warned that the adversary could appear even as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:3-4 ...I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled Eve through his craftyness so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. ... receive another spirit...Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. vs 14


God has told us not to test Him and people fall into the enemies temptation to do just that and since they don't experience... then God don't have healers anymore.

Well, if that hospital was full of faithful believers hungry for God and have been praying for healing then it would be God sending a humble healer and they would heal a majority of the people and then they would leave not caring for any fame or even wanting people to talk about what the Lord did to the public, instead... just for them all to give thanks and glory to God as they walked off.
Human nature is such that God has in the past hidden certain things from us that we do not idolize them. Moses' grave and the bones of Joseph come to mind. Why should we expect that the gifts some claim we should desire be any less of a temptation. At what point do we cross the line from blessing to curse? We do not believe untill we see? Really? That is not faith coming from the hearing of the word of God.

It is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation not outward manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who has experienced the convicting power of the Spirit convicting them of sin and righteousness and Gods judgement knows what I am talking about. Anyone who knows the peace and joy that replaces the fear of Gods judgement when they accept Christ as Saviour knows what is real power of the Holy Spirit. The outward manifestation of the sinner walking in newness of life is testimony of the Holy Spirits regenerative power.

Isaiah said have the watchmen become as dumb dogs that cannot bark. Is 56:10

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Oct 28th 2009, 02:24 PM
In biblical terms seeing is not believing. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Exactly... spreading the Gospel which is bringing the Good Word to the world is to spark "belief" in people of Jesus Christ so that this belief enables them to receive the free gift of salvation and faith as they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Just don't forget the remainder of the instructions of the Great Commission. If that wasn't important, then Jesus would not have said to do it. Also... if the empowerment to do all the instructions was to be removed or only limited to the Apostles... then again, why tell us all to do all that while speaking the Good Word?

It is true that people don't have to see anything, they just hear the Word and accept Jesus and they are saved. This is how it is for most these days I figure, it was for me.

But faith is an element of that belief that enables Jesus to work in the lives of believers. Surrender, trust, obedience are others as well. That's why I say to so many who seem unfullfilled in their service to God while they work in the ministries that interest them... was the ministry one that God wanted them to work in? If not, then they are not producing the fruit the Lord wants from them and they "feel" unfullfilled because no glory is being lifted to the Lord. Oh, they lift praise and glory from their work but it's not the work God planned for them and they are doing "their" work for the Lord. This is a work that means nothing and is not a "work" of the Lord. A work of the Lord is one that the Lord leads them to and is a "result" of their faith. When they seek the Lord they will find out what He want's them to do and they sour high in the new ministry as the Lord works through them. If this requires empowerment, then they are empowered.

How many healers, prophets, miracles workers are walking around today... wondering why they serve and serve and serve and don't feel fulfilled and the reason is cause the enemy has them deceived into thinking that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are ceased?

Faith is... "//the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen" and since they serve in a church with plenty of belief and not the required faith... then they'll NEVER see any evidence and thus never even know that they are to heal, speak prophecy etc. Some even ignore evidence when they see it or hear about it (testimony).

Believe me, this scripture has more meaning then people give it credit. "Hoped for" and "evidence"... so if people testify that they were healed, or a person testifies of a prophecy spoken over them and it came to pass... this isn't "evidence" that gives people hope?

Faith produces the evidence... you don't realize how faith in God is stregthened with the Lord answers a prayer and a prophet comes from half a world away to some tiny church in the middle of no-where and goes right to a person in a congregation that they don't even know and tells them the the Lord has spoken and this is a message for them? Of course I'm sure the prophet first spoke to the pastor who prayed and listened to the Lord authorize the OK for the prophet to speak.

You know my story... I was praying so hard I never heard the Lord tell me that my request was answered and He had to speak through a prophet to get me to basically shutup and start listening :lol:

How can God do that to help a person's faith be strong if there are no more prophets? Many people don't know how to listen to God or worse they do but resist, refuse, question, etc. So the prophet speaks the answers, directions, confirms, and corrects as they are used to "speak" the Lords will to others.

This is just one way, the Lord works many other ways and is never limited. WE limit God... to the point that He literally walks right by entire towns due to LACK OF FAITH or many of the churches in a town except for the ones who are full of the required faith and allow the Holy Spirit the freedom to move them and to manifest as the Lord wills.

Steven3
Oct 28th 2009, 02:36 PM
Hi Herald
Jesus told His disciples, "And behold I send the promise of My Father upon you, but tarry in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (dunamis) from on high." Lu 24:49. This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:14-21. The Apostle Paul would later say, "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in man's wisdom, but in the power of God." 1 Cor 2:4,5.

That's a good verse to illustrate that "and" is used to link two different things, and Spirit and power, is coffee and cream. But you can still have black coffee without cream. Or indeed cream without coffee.

The above Lu24:49 illustrates that Spirit (which the disciples received on resurrection Sunday John 2:22) and power (which came to some of them 47 days later) are two different things.

It's possible to have one without the other, as Lu24:49 demonstrates. I believe God has caused the Spirit to dwell in my heart, and among his church, but I have never asked for powers, because I don't need them and don't want them. Thanks, but no thanks. :)

Praise be to God for his grace is sufficient.
S

ZAB
Oct 28th 2009, 02:43 PM
You give me your scriptures, I already gave you over 5, where are all of your scriptures? You only have one, and you never even gave it.


Friend, the verses you gave have already been debunked. All but one were not referring to the BAPTISM, which is a crucial detail. Do you have any more? There are multiple accounts in Acts where the BAPTISM of the Holy Ghost occurs with speaking in tongues.

Acts 2:1-5
Acts 10:44-46 (notice it was tongues that made them realize the Holy Ghost had been poured out)
Acts 19:1-7
Acts 9:17-18 with 1 Cor 14:18
Acts 8:14-15, 17-18 (Simon SAW a physical manifestation... he SAW them speaking in tongues)
God bless,

Z.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 28th 2009, 05:22 PM
Another way to say it is that because of their unbelief, the Father did not will it. Jesus always did perfectly the will of the Father, thus He could not do any mighty works there.

God Bless!

But what did the verse actually say? A change in one letter translates to a huge difference in our understanding of the Lord.

goykodesh
Oct 28th 2009, 05:25 PM
Yes, and Jesus still speaks today through His Holy Spirit, and uses the vehicle of the prophetic word to do so in many of His servants.

Acts 2:17
‘In the last days,’ God says,
‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.

Why do you believe you are in the 'last days?' This is going to be difficult to answer, but I am going to try. I want you to understand that I am not disagreeing with you, I'm merely trying to gain an equitable understanding of the writings of the 1st Century. It's going to be lengthy and require your own investigation and study laced with lots of prayer for guidance, but Scripture calls us to study, does it not?

The first thing we need to do when we read Luke's report is to understand the context of the report Luke is writing in Acts. The events of Acts 2 took place during the feast of Shavu'ot (Pentacost), when Jews from all over the region made pilgramage to go up to bet Adonai (the Temple). The reason I emphasized Jews, is that virtually every Jewish male not only had at least the 5 books of Moses memorized, but they also understood the idioms and teaching styles that were common in the 1st century. Most of us understand the need to know the Roman and Greek backgrounds to establish context for letters to Corinth, Ephesus, etc before we can understand the context of those letters. Thus, we cannot read Acts 2 in a vacuum. (My personal opinion is that these words were spoken in the Temple grounds, where thousands of Jews wouldl be gathered. I don't think it's too much of a mystery to understand the symbolism of the change of God's presence from bet Adonai, a temple made of stione, to men's (and women's) hearts of flesh in this very place. Again, my opinion)

When the Apostles spoke, it was a certainty that the Scriptues (Tanakh) would be used. In 1st century Judasim, which the Apostles and Jews lived in, they saw four layers, or meanings to the Scriptures -

pshat - this has the literal meaning. This would be presented as literal prophecy as literal fulfilment. And example would be Matthew 2:5-6 quoting Micah 5:2. The literal meaning of the Micah passage is that the Messiah would be born in Bethleham of Judah, not Bethleham of Galilee. This is quoted as a literal fulfillment of prophecy. Other examples can be found in Psalm 22, Psalm 110, Isaiah 7:14, 40:3, 52-53. 61:1-2, Zechariah 9:9, 11:4-14, Malachi 3:1. These prophecys speak to a specific event, and when that event is literally fulfilled, the NT writers quote that particular prophesy.

remez - this means 'clue' or 'suggestion.' This referes to "literal as typical." And example can be found in Matthew 2:15 quoting Hosea 11:1. In the Hosea passage, it's not a prophecy, however it referes to a historical event - Exodus (4:22-23). So according to Hosea, when God brought Israel out of Egypt, He divinely called His Son out of Egypt. So while the literal meaning in Hosea 11:1 referes to the Exodus from Egypt becomes a type of Exodus in NT context. So while the 'Son of God' called out of Egypt is not a literal fulfillment, it is quoted as a type of fulfillment (suggestion). Matthew (Mattanyahu) does not deny or change the meaning / interpretation of the OT passage, but he reveals a deeper meaning to the passage. Other examples are Isaiah 29:13 quoted in Matthew 15:7-9, Isaiah 6:10 quoted in John 12:39-40, Psalm 118: 22-23 quoted in Matthew 21:42, Exodus 12:46 quoted in John 19:36. In fact, the writer of the Book of Hebrews almost exclusively uses 'remez' (using the Greek Septuagint as a resource) in his arguments.

d'rash - this is an investigation, or a meaning deduced by investigation. This method expands the meaning of the text, and is still used today in synagogues after the Torah and Prophet readiigs. As guest Rabbi, Jesus would have given many of these (oh to be a fly on those walls.....) when He visited synagogues on Shabbat (we only get a tiny sampling in the Gospels). The D'rash draws conclusions that are applied to situations or circumstances. It's a literal plus application method of teaching. For example, Matthew 2:17-18 quotes Jeremiah 31:15. In the original context, Jeremiah is not prophesying an event in teh far future (like in Micah).. Jeremiah was prophesying about a current event happenig in his own time - which was the beginning of the Babylonean Captivity. As Jews were being taken captive, they went by the town of Ramah, not far from where Rachal was buried. Rachal had become the symbol of Jewish motherhood. As the captive men passed Ramah, the Jewish mothers of that town came out weeping for the sons they would never see again. Jeremiah painted it as "Rachel weeping for her children." This is the literal meaning of the passage. The writers of the NT did not change nor deny this passage, but uses it as a point of simularity to the OT and quotes it as an application to a new situation. You'll see other examples where Matthew (8:17) quotes Isaiah 53:4, or in Matthew 13: 14-15 quoting Isaiah 6: 9-10, or 13:35 quoting Psalm 78:2. Desperaux, this is the method used in your Acts 2 quote.

sod - this means mystery. "come, I will tell you a "sod" (mystery)..." It is not based on a single passage of Scripture. It's more of a summary of what the Scriptures say about a subject. An example can be found in a Jewish writing called "Midrash Rabbah," kind of a Jewish version of Thayer, etc. Midrash Rabah 63:11 reads: "hence it is written as in teh verse, And I willno more make you a reproach of famine among the nations." There is no verse in the Bible that reads that way, but it is a combination of interpretations of Ezekiel 36:30 and Joel 1:19. Matthew 2:23 uses this summary method, not pointing to a specifice OT passage, but summarizing what the OT said. A clue would be 'prophets', which immediatey points to multiple passages. Another example of 'sod' is Luke 18:31-33 (again 'prophets - in the plural - is used. James (Yaakov) 4:5 used 'sod' too, with the clue "adulteresses" in the previous verse telling us he is writing specifically to Jewish believeers (in Jesus/Yeshua). In the OT, Israel was the wife of YHVH. When the wife worshpped other gods, this was viewed by the prophtes as spiritual adultery. As a result the "jealousy" of God burned against His wife, resulting in divine chastizement. James is telling his audience that they now have the presence of God's Holy Spirit and so the beleievers total loyalty belongs to God and all things to God. If a believer makes friendship to the "world," he/she is harboring a rival spirit causing the indwelt Holy Spirit to become 'jealous.' This too, can lead to divine chastizement. While James is not specifically referring to passages, he is referring to the concept of spiritual adultery established in the OT.

In the 1st Century, Scriptures were always quoted within the context of the above four definitions, however, there is a diference - though traditional rabbinic methods were used (when compared to other Jewish exegetic methods), the NT writings are distinguished by their extraodinary enlightenment. The Apostles didn't take any side trips of extravagance, but stayed within the regulative norm.

So now, Desperaux, I want to refer to your Acts quote. First of all, Peter (Kefa) is quoting from the Septuagint, but makes a departure here - "after these things," Peter states "in the last days." Peter is using a 'this is that' type of formula here. In fact, NOTHING Joel prophecied happened in Acts 2, including teh signs in the heavens and on earth, such as the gloom, fire and billows of smoke, the sun turning dark or the moon to blood- and there is not ONE record of old men dreaming dreams. The ONE thing that DID happen though is NOT even mentioned in Joel - the Jewish pilgrams hereing Peter in their own language and dialect (tongues). So, why is Peter quoting Joel? Some beleive because of the messianic significance of the passages focus on the last statement that those who call upong the name of the LORD will be saved and this in turn opened the door for Peter to present the Gospel. Since none of the things in the Joel prophecy took place then, it shoudl be taken metaophorically as a change so dramatic as to be compared to the extinction of heavenly bodies (dark sun, blood red moon, etc) and other events descriped in Joel 2. This is called a "pesher" formula (this is that) - an example of a simular event - thus the outpouring of the Spirit in Acts 2 was a similar event to the expected outpouring of the Spirit of the Messianic age, hence a partial fullfillment. When Messiah returns (2nd advent), Joel will be fulfilled and ALL flesh will receive the Holy Spirit.

Now, if Joel had mentioned the speaking in tongues, then you could make a case, but Joel does not mention it. While Isaiah 61: 1-3 and Zechariah 9:9-10 makes partial fulfillment clear, Joel doesn't seem to fit here.

So, the Acts 2 passage fits into the category of d'rash, where an OT passage is quoted based on one point of similarity. What Joel prophecied did not happen in Acts 2 (sun darkend, moon turned to blood, dreams, visions), but what Joel did not mention happened (foreign languages). As to the outpouring of the Spirit, Joel was speaking in the context of the entire nation of Israel in the LAST DAYS while Acts 2 speaks of the outpouring of the Spirit on the Apostles and others in the upper room. It's a far cry from Joel's "all flesh" reference. Additionally in verse 18 (Joel), the servents of the Jewish people were to experience the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but there were no servants in the Upper Room.

The 'point if simualarity' that allows the Joel passage is this - an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that was recorded resulted in an unusual manifestation. Acts 2 neither changes Joel 2 nor denys Joel 2 will have a literal fulfimment in the last days.

I hope this helps.

Slug1
Oct 28th 2009, 05:29 PM
But what did the verse actually say? A change in one letter translates to a huge difference in our understanding of the Lord.BTW - what scripture :P

Does this changing of a letter change the Spirit of the meaning from God? So many play the word game, and now... letter game?

notuptome
Oct 28th 2009, 05:49 PM
Exactly... spreading the Gospel which is bringing the Good Word to the world is to spark "belief" in people of Jesus Christ so that this belief enables them to receive the free gift of salvation and faith as they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Just don't forget the remainder of the instructions of the Great Commission. If that wasn't important, then Jesus would not have said to do it. Also... if the empowerment to do all the instructions was to be removed or only limited to the Apostles... then again, why tell us all to do all that while speaking the Good Word?
Are you refering to the "feed My sheep" part of the Lords commission?That stuff in Mark 16 was inserted by a pentacostal scribe.:lol: Preaching the word does not spark it illuminates. The entrance of Gods word illuminates mans sin with the righteousness of Christ. It is eternal condemnation that men must escape.


It is true that people don't have to see anything, they just hear the Word and accept Jesus and they are saved. This is how it is for most these days I figure, it was for me.
All come through the blood. There is only one way of salvation.


But faith is an element of that belief that enables Jesus to work in the lives of believers. Surrender, trust, obedience are others as well. That's why I say to so many who seem unfullfilled in their service to God while they work in the ministries that interest them... was the ministry one that God wanted them to work in? If not, then they are not producing the fruit the Lord wants from them and they "feel" unfullfilled because no glory is being lifted to the Lord. Oh, they lift praise and glory from their work but it's not the work God planned for them and they are doing "their" work for the Lord. This is a work that means nothing and is not a "work" of the Lord. A work of the Lord is one that the Lord leads them to and is a "result" of their faith. When they seek the Lord they will find out what He want's them to do and they sour high in the new ministry as the Lord works through them. If this requires empowerment, then they are empowered.
The love of many will grow cold in the last days. If one seeks the praise of men in the ministry they will doubtless be disappointed. Those who love the Lord and serve Him do not find themselves overwhelmed in self pity.


How many healers, prophets, miracles workers are walking around today... wondering why they serve and serve and serve and don't feel fulfilled and the reason is cause the enemy has them deceived into thinking that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are ceased?
I suggest the number is none. Or they are serving someone other than the Lord of glory.


Faith is... "//the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen" and since they serve in a church with plenty of belief and not the required faith... then they'll NEVER see any evidence and thus never even know that they are to heal, speak prophecy etc. Some even ignore evidence when they see it or hear about it (testimony).
This is a conflict in terminology. Belief and faith are not mutually exclusive. Having correct doctrine will promote Godly works.


Believe me, this scripture has more meaning then people give it credit. "Hoped for" and "evidence"... so if people testify that they were healed, or a person testifies of a prophecy spoken over them and it came to pass... this isn't "evidence" that gives people hope?
The evidence is the hope, the knowledge, that one has eternal life. John said these things are written that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13


Faith produces the evidence... you don't realize how faith in God is stregthened with the Lord answers a prayer and a prophet comes from half a world away to some tiny church in the middle of no-where and goes right to a person in a congregation that they don't even know and tells them the the Lord has spoken and this is a message for them? Of course I'm sure the prophet first spoke to the pastor who prayed and listened to the Lord authorize the OK for the prophet to speak.
Maria Schriver the first lady of California recently lost her mother Eunice Kennedy-Schriver. Ms Schriver was approached by a nun on the day her mother died who said to Ms Schriver that she had seen Eunice and the Virgin Mary together and she assured Ms Schriver all would be well. Was the nun a prophet?

Faith produces works in the Lord. Faith answers here am I Lord send me.


You know my story... I was praying so hard I never heard the Lord tell me that my request was answered and He had to speak through a prophet to get me to basically shutup and start listening :lol:
Man that nun really gets around! Wait it wasn't really her was it?:rofl:


How can God do that to help a person's faith be strong if there are no more prophets? Many people don't know how to listen to God or worse they do but resist, refuse, question, etc. So the prophet speaks the answers, directions, confirms, and corrects as they are used to "speak" the Lords will to others.
God speaks to His own through His word. Only believers are guided into the truth. I must reserve my opinion on what transpired in your personal life. Only God knows with certainty.


This is just one way, the Lord works many other ways and is never limited. WE limit God... to the point that He literally walks right by entire towns due to LACK OF FAITH or many of the churches in a town except for the ones who are full of the required faith and allow the Holy Spirit the freedom to move them and to manifest as the Lord wills.
God is soverign and He only acts in righteousness. His wrath is reserved for those who are unrighteous and ungodly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 06:47 PM
Ahhh! I recognize that one! And when you pray for a person who has cancer, for example, and if that person dies, you'll also claim that the person was actually healed, because death is a form of healing, the person is now set free from his diseased body!

Oh boy, the deceptions never change all through church history do they? :rofl:The charlatans still use the same old tricks over and over again.

There is no deception. My own wonderful mother, who was a giant in God and a pastor, counselor and author for Christ, died from pancreatic Cancer. The Lord actually told us to pray against the Cancer in a personal word He gave us even before the diagnosis was given, which we fervently did. (Yes, He speaks!) Yet, He took her. Does that mean that He didn't desire to heal her? No. Why did He instruct us to pray against the Cancer? He wanted to witness and be blessed by our faithful obedience, and He also wanted us to continue to hold to Him in faith and yet allow Him to take her--she is healed and completely whole before her Lord and Saviour right now.

People do die.

Yet, there is a wonderful young man I know of personally and prayed for when he was less than 2 years old as he was dying from multiple tumours on his kidneys. After our church came together and earnestly prayed for his healing, his tumours disappeared. His parents were then able to take him with the rest of his siblings to Yugoslavia as tentmaker/missionaries. Satan was trying to stop them from going.

I have witnessed many healings.

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 06:59 PM
Jesus could not do NOTHING. Read the verse carefully.

That's right, and He will do nothing for those who don't believe He will. He will "passover" those with hardened hearts and choose to work through those He trusts and who believe Him.

It is important for us as believers to believe and to be trustworthy to Him.



If Jesus could create the Universe from nothing, he could do anything he wanted to. Please do not blaspheme the Lord this way.

He will not work through people who don't believe He can do anything. Teaching and preaching that He doesn't work today by His Spirit through His people is blasphemy. Tying His hands is a sin.

God has chosen to limit Himself to work through PEOPLE. HIS people. Denying His anointing of His people only hampers His will--but he will not be deterred. He will pass over such scoffers and settle on those who respond to His Word and His will.

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 07:00 PM
Another way to say it is that because of their unbelief, the Father did not will it. Jesus always did perfectly the will of the Father, thus He could not do any mighty works there.

God Bless!
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Amen3.jpg

kay-gee
Oct 28th 2009, 09:01 PM
So those of us who are willing to take God at His Word, with out the extra junk, are being passed over????

Oww...that hurts!

all the best...

RabbiKnife
Oct 28th 2009, 09:04 PM
Since I do not speak in tongues, I have been described by some people as an Outer Court Christian (think Tabernacle), not being granted access as a priest to the Holy Place, right next to the Holy of Holies.

Stick around, KG. Lots of room out here in the Outer Court.

:D

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 09:08 PM
Since I do not speak in tongues, I have been described by some people as an Outer Court Christian (thing Tabernacle), not being granted access as a priest to the Holy Place, right next to the Holy of Holies.

Stick around, KG. Lots of room out here in the Outer Court.

:D

That is a very cruel and self-serving title someone has given you. Don't claim it.

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 09:10 PM
So those of us who are willing to take God at His Word, with out the extra junk, are being passed over????

Oww...that hurts!

all the best...

If one is unwilling to step out and allow himself to be used of God to heal someone or to speak the word of God to someone's situation through the gift of wisdom or knowledge or prophecy, or minister through the gift of mercy, then God will indeed pass over that person and use one who is willing and accepts the gifting that is used for the Body.

RabbiKnife
Oct 28th 2009, 09:16 PM
That is a very cruel and self-serving title someone has given you. Don't claim it.

Well, since Jesus spent most of his time in the outer court of the Temple in Jerusalem, I thought it was a pretty good place to hang out...

:D

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 09:17 PM
Well, since Jesus spent most of his time in the outer court of the Temple in Jerusalem, I thought it was a pretty good place to hang out...

:D

Good point! However, we have access to the Holy of holies! Get in there! :spin:

goykodesh
Oct 28th 2009, 09:19 PM
Good point! However, we have access to the Holy of holies! Get in there! :spin:

By the way, I answered your previous question. Get in there!

goykodesh
Oct 28th 2009, 09:21 PM
Well, since Jesus spent most of his time in the outer court of the Temple in Jerusalem, I thought it was a pretty good place to hang out...

:D

Man, you are subtle! Apparently some are still looking for the Holy One in an ark.....

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 09:22 PM
By the way, I answered your previous question. Get in there!

Did I have a question?? :confused

goykodesh
Oct 28th 2009, 09:25 PM
Did I have a question?? :confused

You gave me some Scripture, I addressed the Acts 2 portion (for brevity). Since you didn't reply to the response, I'll have to assume you've accepted my explanation that Peter wasn't invoking Joel as being fulfilled at that time.. :pp

Desperaux
Oct 28th 2009, 09:37 PM
You gave me some Scripture, I addressed the Acts 2 portion (for brevity). Since you didn't reply to the response, I'll have to assume you've accepted my explanation that Peter wasn't invoking Joel as being fulfilled at that time.. :pp

I only scan long posts. Maybe I should go back and take a closer gander?

goykodesh
Oct 28th 2009, 09:49 PM
I only scan long posts. Maybe I should go back and take a closer gander?

Sorry about the long post. It was my intent to address the subject without presumptions or assumptions.

jandl
Oct 28th 2009, 10:11 PM
Good point! However, we have access to the Holy of holies! Get in there! :spin:By prayer and nothing else.

kay-gee
Oct 29th 2009, 12:23 AM
If one is unwilling to step out and allow himself to be used of God to heal someone or to speak the word of God to someone's situation through the gift of wisdom or knowledge or prophecy, or minister through the gift of mercy, then God will indeed pass over that person and use one who is willing and accepts the gifting that is used for the Body.
I've spoken many times to peoples situations using the Bible, the word of God. I don't get any marks for that?

drag!

all the best...

Desperaux
Oct 29th 2009, 01:05 AM
By prayer and nothing else.

By prayer? Yes, and by our position in Christ---by virtue of the fact that we are children of the Most High God and that is our inheritance. Many believers don't take seriously the fact that we are joint-heirs with Christ and have all that He has, and so they don't venture into the very throne room of God. Nor do they speak with the authority of Christ and receive what is on offer.

jandl
Oct 29th 2009, 01:22 AM
By prayer? Yes, and by our position in Christ---by virtue of the fact that we are children of the Most High God and that is our inheritance. Many believers don't take seriously the fact that we are joint-heirs with Christ and have all that He has, and so they don't venture into the very throne room of God. Nor do they speak with the authority of Christ and receive what is on offer.Right, but what are you saying is ON OFFER?

Desperaux
Oct 29th 2009, 01:28 AM
Right, but what are you saying is ON OFFER?

What is on offer is the empowerment of the Holy Spirit by His baptism. Many Christians eke out a life for themselves without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but He desires to empower us and bless us beyond measure.

The anointing is necessary for us to perform the work He calls us to with great ease and with success. Without the baptism, we will still be called to good works in Him, but the power and ease we require to do what we are called to do will not be so available. In the baptism, we are gifted with special gifts, personally assigned to us by God, and without it, Christians will live their lives not fulfilling what God desires to call them to.

watchinginawe
Oct 29th 2009, 02:11 AM
Another way to say it is that because of their unbelief, the Father did not will it. Jesus always did perfectly the will of the Father, thus He could not do any mighty works there.But what did the verse actually say? A change in one letter translates to a huge difference in our understanding of the Lord.I assumed the discussion was regarding the following passage:

Mark 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.


So verse 5 is the verse under examination. I am not sure I see your problem. I offer "could not do any mighty works there". First, let's get the greek meanings for that word could in the the verse:
to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
to be able to do something
to be capable, strong and powerful
We can discard #2 and #3 immediately because Jesus was able, and Jesus was capable, having the power to do so. That leaves us with #1.

Of those in #1, I chose "by permission" in my explanation. Jesus had the ability and the power, but I suggest He was not permitted by the will of the Father (He did not have permission), thus he could not, or could do nothing (I see no difference). Jesus offered in the Gospel of John the following (and in other places as well):

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

So Jesus (the man) admits to restricting Himself to doing only the things in accordance with God the Father's will. If a certain thing was not in the will of the Father then Jesus, since He did always those things that please Him, is not permitted. It doesn't mean He was disabled, disarmed, etc.

So in Jesus' own country, where He might have wanted to work even the mightiest works, He could there do no mighty work, or equally, He could do no mighty work at that place (there). Green's literal translation offers this for the verse: Mark 6:5 And He could do no work of power there, except He performed healing on a few infirm ones, laying on His hands.

So the idea is that Jesus was prevented in doing mighty works at that location. We know that Jesus' divine power was not neutralized simply because of His geographical location. So I offer that He was prevented, and I also offer a reason by which He could have been prevented (the will of the Father). As for location, what was special about the location (there) is their unbelief.

Looking back at it, I really thought my original post was mostly in agreement with yours, and since your point was in understanding our Lord, maybe some of the above helps in that goal for all involved. That is how I make sense of the passage.

God Bless!

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 29th 2009, 04:19 AM
BTW - what scripture :P

Does this changing of a letter change the Spirit of the meaning from God? So many play the word game, and now... letter game?

Isn't it interesting that nobody bothers to actually look up that verse about the assertion that the Lord Could not heal?
If you look up the actual verse, you will immediately understand why changing of one letter will change the entire meaning of the verse, and our understanding.

ThyWordIsTruth
Oct 29th 2009, 04:33 AM
I assumed the discussion was regarding the following passage:

Mark 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.


So verse 5 is the verse under examination. I am not sure I see your problem. I offer "could not do any mighty works there". First, let's get the greek meanings for that word could in the the verse:

to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
to be able to do something
to be capable, strong and powerful

We can discard #2 and #3 immediately because Jesus was able, and Jesus was capable, having the power to do so. That leaves us with #1.

Of those in #1, I chose "by permission" in my explanation. Jesus had the ability and the power, but I suggest He was not permitted by the will of the Father (He did not have permission), thus he could not, or could do nothing (I see no difference). Jesus offered in the Gospel of John the following (and in other places as well):

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

So Jesus (the man) admits to restricting Himself to doing only the things in accordance with God the Father's will. If a certain thing was not in the will of the Father then Jesus, since He did always those things that please Him, is not permitted. It doesn't mean He was disabled, disarmed, etc.

So in Jesus' own country, where He might have wanted to work even the mightiest works, He could there do no mighty work, or equally, He could do no mighty work at that place (there). Green's literal translation offers this for the verse: Mark 6:5 And He could do no work of power there, except He performed healing on a few infirm ones, laying on His hands.

So the idea is that Jesus was prevented in doing mighty works at that location. We know that Jesus' divine power was not neutralized simply because of His geographical location. So I offer that He was prevented, and I also offer a reason by which He could have been prevented (the will of the Father). As for location, what was special about the location (there) is their unbelief.

Looking back at it, I really thought my original post was mostly in agreement with yours, and since your point was in understanding our Lord, maybe some of the above helps in that goal for all involved. That is how I make sense of the passage.

God Bless!

Great job. I see the problem, we were looking at different verses, my mistake and apologies.

Mat 13:57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."
Mat 13:58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

jandl
Oct 29th 2009, 05:01 AM
What is on offer is the empowerment of the Holy Spirit by His baptism. Many Christians eke out a life for themselves without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but He desires to empower us and bless us beyond measure. It is impossible for anybody to be a Christian and NOT be baptized by the Spirit. When you ask Christ into your heart, you are being born again spiritually and your old life is DYING and you come up a new creature. Tongues and healing and all that garbage has nothing to do with being baptized. They were sign gifts to the nation of Israel.

kay-gee
Oct 29th 2009, 01:09 PM
By prayer? Yes, and by our position in Christ---by virtue of the fact that we are children of the Most High God and that is our inheritance. Many believers don't take seriously the fact that we are joint-heirs with Christ and have all that He has, and so they don't venture into the very throne room of God. Nor do they speak with the authority of Christ and receive what is on offer.


Huh? So if we are reading from, and speaking from GODS WORD, it is NOT on Christs authority?

Wow!

all the best...

Slug1
Oct 29th 2009, 01:13 PM
Isn't it interesting that nobody bothers to actually look up that verse about the assertion that the Lord Could not heal?
If you look up the actual verse, you will immediately understand why changing of one letter will change the entire meaning of the verse, and our understanding.:idea: Help me out friend... point me to the post you supplied the scripture in or let me know what scripture it is specifically.

Also, which post did you explain the letter change means a change to the meaning of the verse?

ZAB
Oct 29th 2009, 01:21 PM
It is impossible for anybody to be a Christian and NOT be baptized by the Spirit.

Scripture?


Tongues and healing and all that garbage has nothing to do with being baptized. They were sign gifts to the nation of Israel.

It is sad that you casually refer to a gift as "garbage".

Nonetheless, here's a link that will prove the gift of tongues has a duality of purpose, not solely for judgement as you claim:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=182832&highlight=types+tongues

Z.

RabbiKnife
Oct 29th 2009, 01:24 PM
I always like it when I am pointed to things that "will prove" something.

ZAB
Oct 29th 2009, 02:36 PM
I always like it when I am pointed to things that "will prove" something.

Paul settles the issue for me... but for you, I guess not. His dissertation is the only "proof" I need.

Z.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 29th 2009, 02:55 PM
Tongues and healing and all that garbage has nothing to do with being baptized. They were sign gifts to the nation of Israel.

Equating the 'Gifts' as garbage?

I hope your use of words doesnt represent your 'heart and its intents'..

I would strongly caution you to be careful 'WHO' you are calling 'garbage'.......

and this is very dangerous... for your part...

ZAB
Oct 29th 2009, 03:59 PM
Equating the 'Gifts' as garbage?

I hope your use of words doesnt represent your 'heart and its intents'..

I would strongly caution you to be careful 'WHO' you are calling 'garbage'.......

and this is very dangerous... for your part...

I suppose a gift is nothing more than mere garbage WHEN IT REMAINS UNWRAPPED! Perhaps if the gift was actually opened, the value could be rightly seen. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a "doctrinal ideal" with a pretty bow on top. Sad, very sad.

Z.

notuptome
Oct 29th 2009, 04:11 PM
It is impossible for anybody to be a Christian and NOT be baptized by the Spirit. When you ask Christ into your heart, you are being born again spiritually and your old life is DYING and you come up a new creature.
Titus 3:5 would seem to support your position.


Tongues and healing and all that garbage has nothing to do with being baptized. They were sign gifts to the nation of Israel.
Very poor choice of descriptives. Do not confuse abuses of the gifts with the inherent qualties of the gifts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ZAB
Oct 29th 2009, 04:14 PM
Titus 3:5 would seem to support your position.

Eph 1:13-14, among others, would seem to contradict his statement. Even Titus 3:5 distinguishes the 2 as separate events.

Z.

RabbiKnife
Oct 29th 2009, 04:34 PM
Ephesians 4:4-5 would seem to contradict your interpretation of Titus.

notuptome
Oct 29th 2009, 05:19 PM
Ephesians 4:4-5 would seem to contradict your interpretation of Titus.
How so? Titus in my application does not prevent what is said in Ephesians 4.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Oct 29th 2009, 05:27 PM
Eph 1:13-14, among others, would seem to contradict his statement. Even Titus 3:5 distinguishes the 2 as separate events.

Z.
I do not see how this contradicts his statement. We cannot be sealed by the Holy Spirit prior to belief. We know we are saved because we receive the down payment of our salvation in the person of the Holy Spirit the moment we trust Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ZAB
Oct 29th 2009, 05:28 PM
Ephesians 4:4-5 would seem to contradict your interpretation of Titus.



Not so. There indeed is one Lord (but revealed in three - Father, Son, Holy Ghost). There is also one faith (but revealed in three - justification, sanctification, glorification). There is one baptism (but revealed in three - blood, fire, water). There is a baptism for every part of tripartite man. A baptism for his spirit (blood), a baptism for his body (water), and a baptism for his soul (fire). These are all separate and distinct experiences. What do you say about:

Eph 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
Jn 7:38-39 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
Jn 20:22 with Acts 2 - Of course we receive a measure of the Holy Ghost when we are saved. The Holy Spirit is required to woo us and to apply the blood of Jesus to our hearts by faith. However, this is not the same as the BAPTISM. That's like comparing a trickle of water to a waterfall. This is why the word "baptism" means "immersion; to be totally covered". It can be likened to the Holy Spirit IN us (Passover), versus ON us (Pentecost).
Acts 19:2-3 "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism."
Acts 2:16-18 - notice it was upon "my servants" and "my handmaidens" that the Holy Ghost was poured out. This isn't restricted dispensationally, the same is true today. We must be justified before we can be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-16 "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"
Gal 3:13-14 - justification is preparatory for the Holy Ghost.
OT Pentecost occurred exactly 50 days after OT Passover (Ex 12:18; Num 28:16; Lev 23:4-5). NT Pentecost also occurred exactly 50 days after Passover (Acts 1:3; 2:1). The disciples tarried in Jerusalem for 10 days, 40 days after Jesus' resurrection. "When the day of Pentecost was fully come", the Holy Spirit was out-poured on the believing and waiting disciples.
Z.

ZAB
Oct 29th 2009, 05:32 PM
I do not see how this contradicts his statement. We cannot be sealed by the Holy Spirit prior to belief. We know we are saved because we receive the down payment of our salvation in the person of the Holy Spirit the moment we trust Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

He was using Titus 3:5 to somehow say the "events" there were inseparable. However, Eph 1:13 clearly says we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after we have believed.

Z.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2009, 05:32 PM
I do not see how this contradicts his statement. We cannot be sealed by the Holy Spirit prior to belief. We know we are saved because we receive the down payment of our salvation in the person of the Holy Spirit the moment we trust Christ.

For the cause of Christ
RogerLet me ask this here then... did all the 120 members in the upper room already have that down payment and were sealed and saved prior to the Holy Spirit coming upon them in power?

Or were they not saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit before He came upon them in power?

ZAB
Oct 29th 2009, 05:34 PM
Let me ask this here then... did all the 120 members in the upper room already have that down payment and were sealed and saved prior to the Holy Spirit coming upon them in power?

Or were they not saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit before He came upon them in power?

And also the people in Acts 19:2-3 and Acts 8:14-15. Were they believers before they received the Holy Spirit? Yes.

Z.

RabbiKnife
Oct 29th 2009, 06:16 PM
How so? Titus in my application does not prevent what is said in Ephesians 4.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sorry, not you. Z's interpretation.

ZAB
Oct 29th 2009, 06:20 PM
Sorry, not you. Z's interpretation.

Did you miss post 231?

Z.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2009, 06:36 PM
and Acts 8:14-15. Were they believers before they received the Holy Spirit? Yes.

Z.Yep... even though Simon was gimme, gimme and wanted the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in power for all the wrong reasons and thus was not allowed to receive it, he did receive salvation and was sealed v13 in Acts 8.

Why the desire for "power" v19... if he already had the Holy Spirit? He was sealed, so why the desire for "power" if the sealing and the Baptizing of the Holy Spirit in power are the same?

Peter would have explained he already had the "power" of the Holy Spirit upon him... but he didn't cause he was only sealed and not Baptized in power.

Peter explained in v21 why he couldn't receive the Holy Spirit in power and when you boil that down, it's the reason why many don't receive today and are only sealed.

webhead
Oct 29th 2009, 06:43 PM
1 Cor 12:4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.



Again, divers tongues is just one evidence of the baptism, not the only, or initial.



Now how can a man like me, who does not speak in charismatic tongues, have words of wisdom, knowledge, and prophesy all boldly without the baptism? I can't, but I do? How is this possible? I don't speak in charismatic tongues after all.


Here is the answer from Paul.




1 Cor 12:29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


Not all of the baptized speak in tongues, but they do everything else the baptism entails.

Desperaux
Oct 29th 2009, 06:55 PM
It is impossible for anybody to be a Christian and NOT be baptized by the Spirit. When you ask Christ into your heart, you are being born again spiritually and your old life is DYING and you come up a new creature. Tongues and healing and all that garbage has nothing to do with being baptized. They were sign gifts to the nation of Israel.

That is a poor understanding of what the word of God teaches us. Even a rudimentary reading of the book of Acts tells us that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is separate and subsequent to salvation. Occasionally it occurs at salvation or at water baptism in some people, which is a real special gift, but it happens after belief, which leads to salvation.

Calling tongues and healing and all the gifts He gives GARBAGE is what the enemy does. They are what the baptism imparts to the Church.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2009, 06:55 PM
Now how can a man like me, who does not speak in charismatic tongues, have words of wisdom, knowledge, and prophesy all boldly without the baptism? I can't, but I do? How is this possible? I don't speak in charismatic tongues after all.

I have not spoke in tongues either and the Lord uses me in the gifts of wisdom and knowledge in my church.

All the Apostles who healed and did all they did were not Baptized in the Holy Spirit while Jesus was with them. They believed, so they were sealed as all Christians are once they believe who Jesus Christ is and accept Him as thier Savior.

It's all as the Lord wills.

At Pentecost all 120 received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in power... those 12 didn't have to lay hands on the other 108. All received and all can today as well.

One of those 12 was an Apostle due to winning at lots... what kind of qualification is that? Hahahaha

Desperaux
Oct 29th 2009, 06:57 PM
Huh? So if we are reading from, and speaking from GODS WORD, it is NOT on Christs authority?

Wow!

all the best...

If you take it seriously that you are indeed speaking with the authority of Christ, then yes...but I have met countless Christians who cannot accept the fact that we have such a possession in Him, and they do not use it.

webhead
Oct 29th 2009, 07:02 PM
I have not spoke in tongues either and the Lord uses me in the gifts of wisdom and knowledge in my church.


What about this?

Plenty of the people in my church speak in charismatic tongues, but produce no fruits, and refuse to witness or spread the gospel?

The Bible clearly states that those baptized in the spirit boldly proclaim the gospel, and yet these charismatic Christians refuse to? They are very faithful to attend church, but refuse to acknowledge Christ outside of church, but they are tongue speaking machines in church? But they claim to have great power.

Boy, I wish I had what they had.;)

Slug1
Oct 29th 2009, 07:05 PM
What about this?

Plenty of the people in my church speak in charismatic tongues, but produce no fruits, and refuse to witness or spread the gospel?

The Bible clearly states that those baptized in the spirit boldly proclaim the gospel, and yet these charismatic Christians refuse to? They are very faithful to attend church, but refuse to acknowledge Christ outside of church, but they are tongue speaking machines in church? But they claim to have great power.

Boy, I wish I had what they had.;)That's why the Lord gave us instructions in 1 Cor 12+ about the proper use. Somewhere in this lengthy thread I mentioned that there are many churches prime candidates for the same correction that the Corinthians received years ago.

You operate in knowledge/wisdom/prophecy and the only other gift in operation is Tongues in the church you attend? Are they spoken under their breath in prayer or out loud without translation... if no translation is brought forth... personally, I'd leave if the pastor doesn't take control of the chaos. The Holy Spirit clearly divvies up all the gifts and will not hamstring a church with only 1 or 2 gifts. If people don't let their flesh get in the way, all will be in order as well.

But I know what you mean about not reaching out... to many Christians feel the "church" is limited to within the confines of the building they gather at. Hardly...

Maybe someone needs to show them the door and point them in a direction where the church really is... out there in the streets where no one brings Jesus Christ and the enemy is in freedom to operate.

Desperaux
Oct 29th 2009, 07:08 PM
What about this?

Plenty of the people in my church speak in charismatic tongues, but produce no fruits, and refuse to witness or spread the gospel?

The Bible clearly states that those baptized in the spirit boldly proclaim the gospel, and yet these charismatic Christians refuse to? They are very faithful to attend church, but refuse to acknowledge Christ outside of church, but they are tongue speaking machines in church? But they claim to have great power.

Boy, I wish I had what they had.;)

That just says that you have some zombie Christians in your church. If you are a fruit inspector , gauging their lives for fruit, and you are correct, then you have a real opportunity to show by your example what being a doer of the Word is.

webhead
Oct 29th 2009, 07:16 PM
That just says that you have some zombie Christians in your church.

No such thing as a baptized in the spirit zombie church goer.

All who are baptized in the spirit "BOLDLY" proclaim the gospel of Christ.

Again, charismatic tongues has nothing to do with the baptism, but it can be a byproduct of the baptism, but many other things are as well.

Charismatic tongues is just one of the many gifts that can come along with the baptism, but it's not the only, or most important.

Paul ranks the baptism gifts in order of importance, guess which is last?

1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first(πρῶτον first of all or first in rank) apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Tongues is last on the list of importance.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2009, 07:21 PM
Tongues is last on the list of importance.Which is why the enemy imitates it the most and actually convinces some people that unless people speak in tongues, they're not really saved... he's good at deceiving. Look at the two extremes he's got people deceived, one end is that tongues has ended and the other... that you have to speak in tongues to be saved. Well, in the middle is the TRUTH.

He'll actually get whole churches speaking in tongues (fake) and these churches thrive on the emotional high and all this emotionalism is giving to the enemy. Sad :(

webhead
Oct 29th 2009, 07:25 PM
Which is why the enemy imitates it the most and actually convinces some people that unless people speak in tongues, they're not really saved... he's good at deceiving. He'll actually get whole churches speaking in tongues (fake) and these churches thrive on the emotional high and all this emotionalism is giving to the enemy. Sad :(

True.

And if tongues was the only evidence of the baptism, then it would be first on the list of importance according to Paul, not last.

Slug1
Oct 29th 2009, 07:28 PM
True.

And if tongues was the only evidence of the baptism, then it would be first on the list of importance according to Paul, not last.I just made an edit to my post :lol: ;)

No, he clearly says what to seek and that's prophecy... but why would he say this if it's ended???? As some people say!

Desperaux
Oct 29th 2009, 07:33 PM
No such thing as a baptized in the spirit zombie church goer.

I was being facetious. Those who hoard the gifts and don't use them for the furtherance of the Kingdom, to me, are zombies--living dead.


All who are baptized in the spirit "BOLDLY" proclaim the gospel of Christ.
Not all. Some are disobedient.


Again, charismatic tongues has nothing to do with the baptism, but it can be a byproduct of the baptism, but many other things are as well.
Charismatic tongues is just one of the many gifts that can come along with the baptism, but it's not the only, or most important.Yes, tongues is just one evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the most easily seen and is the most easily abused.


Tongues is last on the list of importance.From what I am reading, it seems to some, it is not important at all, which is false.

webhead
Oct 29th 2009, 07:34 PM
I just made an edit to my post :lol: ;)

No, he clearly says what to seek and that's prophecy... but why would he say this if it's ended???? As some people say!

Prophecy is not charismatic tongues.

This is the gift of prophecy. Prophecy. (prophetes), lit: "to speak forth," to proclaim the mind and counsel of God, i.e., the gift of preaching(not pastoring). NT prophets do not make predictions about the future as the OT prophets did, but gather their message from the Scriptures. Nor is God giving the church new revelation through such individuals today. The gift of prophecy is likewise not for giving secret messages from God to individuals in the church. Prophets vigorously stimulate and challenge the Body of Christ, pastor-teachers patiently feed the sheep and care for their needs. Prophets are to edify, exhort and console, (see 1 Cor. 14:3).