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Elijah Lau
Nov 5th 2009, 12:26 AM
Church leaders are not appointed by men but God.

Do you agree?
Any verse that come into your mind when you see the statement above?
Is it biblical to say that statement?

Please comment. Thanks.

Slug1
Nov 5th 2009, 01:58 AM
I'd say it's Biblical... however the Lord does have a sense of humor though also... I guess to keep life interesting. Why do I say this? Well, one of the Apostles became an Apostle cause he won by lots :lol:

Acts 1:23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Let's see, another to come to the immediate forefront of my brain is Paul himself. Acts 9 starts all this scripture.

Does this mean all church leaders are appointed by God, doubt it these days.

bc3n1
Nov 5th 2009, 02:13 AM
I'm assuming you mean leaders in the Body of Christ. My thought of those I would assume that aren't designated by God would be in satan's heirarchy. I'm being facetious here, forgive me. :cool:

Mark 2:13 Then He went out again by the sea; and all the multitude came to Him, and He taught them.

14: As He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow me." So he arose and followed him.

One of 12 incidences, and one was a devil.

ycartf
Nov 5th 2009, 02:36 AM
Romans 13 if you are talking about "authorities."

Elijah Lau
Nov 5th 2009, 04:04 AM
i am thinking about
1. God appoint them to be leaders....
2. God allow them to be leaders....

appoint is something DIRECTLY.... @@
dun know... not sure...

webhead
Nov 5th 2009, 04:07 AM
Church leaders are not appointed by men but God.

Do you agree?
Any verse that come into your mind when you see the statement above?
Is it biblical to say that statement?

Please comment. Thanks.

In my church, men appoint both the deacons and pastor. The church members vote when a new pastor is needed, majority rules. Deacons appoint new deacons when old deacons leave.

Steven3
Nov 5th 2009, 04:09 AM
Do churches today select two candidates and then decide by lot?

crossnote
Nov 5th 2009, 05:27 AM
Typically those whom God wills to be in the ministry will end up being confirmed by the Church.

Elijah Lau
Nov 5th 2009, 07:56 AM
Do churches today select two candidates and then decide by lot?

actually decide by lot is biblical what, suppose we also decide by lot. in Book of Acts.

But i think the member of the church do the shortlisting job....



In my opinion,

God is in reign of everything, He can foresee future, and holds the future.

CASE 1
In some cases He directly involve (maybe this can be called as APPOINT)
Like call Moses, Send Jonah etc.

CASE 2
In some cases He allows
Since God is in reign of everything, if He do not stop it, that mean He allows it.


CASE 3
And In some cases He give them up, or let them alone.


(Rom 1:24 [ESV])
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,

(Rom 1:26 [ESV])
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;

(Rom 1:28 [ESV])
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

(Acts 7:42 [ESV])
But God turned away and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: “‘Did you bring to me slain beasts and sacrifices, during the forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? 

(Matt 15:14 [ESV])
Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

mcgyver
Nov 5th 2009, 04:06 PM
Well, the scripture that comes immediately to my mind is Ephesians 4:11-12:

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

So my answer would be yes, that it is God that places men in leadership within the church.

Some are good...some are lousy...

But then again both Saul and Solomon are examples of men who started well (and were appointed by God); but ended rather poorly...and Saul of Tarsus (Paul) an example of one who started poorly and finished well.

ZAB
Nov 5th 2009, 04:28 PM
Church leaders are not appointed by men but God.

Do you agree?
Any verse that come into your mind when you see the statement above?
Is it biblical to say that statement?

Please comment. Thanks.

2 Tim 2:1-2 "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

Neh 7:1-2 "Now it came to pass, when the wall was built, and I had set up the doors, and the porters and the singers and the Levites were appointed, That I gave my brother Hanani, and Hananiah the ruler of the palace, charge over Jerusalem: for he was a faithful man, and feared God above many."

Men (only as they are moved by the Holy Ghost) set others in the ministry (2 Tim 1:14). This is the Biblical pattern, though it is not often modeled today. Therefore, though it operates by the natural hand of a man, it is ultimately the Lord who sets up one and puts down another:

1 Tim 1:12 "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry..."

Ps 75:6-7 "For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another."

Eph 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers..."

How does this work? Well, first of all it requires Godly leadership. A true leader will be able to recognize the gifts God has placed in others. He will not be threatened by their giftings, nor will he try to supress them. A man's gift will make room for him (or her):

Acts 11:17 "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"

Prov 18:16 "A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men."


Z.

Steve M
Nov 5th 2009, 04:34 PM
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

These being elders/bishops/pastors, contrast that to the lengthy list of qualifications and orders that we select these men out of our own number found in Titus and Timothy.

I don't think this means God chooses each one personally, but that God oversees the process, and a man who fulfills all the qualifications has every blessing of God in entering the position... but I've heard those verses used other ways too.

karenoka27
Nov 5th 2009, 04:53 PM
Church leaders are not appointed by men but God.

Do you agree?
Any verse that come into your mind when you see the statement above?
Is it biblical to say that statement?

Please comment. Thanks.

Sadly, I think there are times and I have seen this happen, where men have appointed men to be leaders and I question if it was God at all. With that said, no matter we are called to respect the authority placed over us in a church once the matter is decided...or you can leave the church.
Hebrews 13:17-"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

uric3
Nov 5th 2009, 09:00 PM
I think its both... in Acts 6:1-ff the aposltes ask the church to choose... what I think is the first selection of Deacons...

Also 1st Tim 3 is a set of standards we are to look at when selecting men for these offices.

We also see in Titus that they left him in Crete to appoint elders... so it seems man has a part in appointing the leaders of the church.

At the same time as its already been pointed out God has a hand in it as well... so I think its a little of both.

Elijah Lau
Nov 6th 2009, 02:06 AM
Thanks everyone for your valuable comment, it helps me.

I have a conclusion:
Almost all leaders are appointed by men, and it is allowed by God.
Only minority leaders direct appointed by God, example Moses.

If you have different conclusion than mine, please state it out.

crossnote
Nov 6th 2009, 06:12 AM
Thanks everyone for your valuable comment, it helps me.

I have a conclusion:
Almost all leaders are appointed by men, and it is allowed by God.
Only minority leaders direct appointed by God, example Moses.

If you have different conclusion than mine, please state it out.

A leader appointed by man and allowed by God would end up being a Saul.
A leader appointed by God and confirmed by man would be like a David.

ThyWordIsTruth
Nov 6th 2009, 11:48 AM
Sadly, I think there are times and I have seen this happen, where men have appointed men to be leaders and I question if it was God at all. With that said, no matter we are called to respect the authority placed over us in a church once the matter is decided...or you can leave the church.
Hebrews 13:17-"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

I think the believer must also be alert. The only reason we're called to submit ourselves to those who have rule over us spiritually, is if they fulfill the other part of the verse: They watch over our souls.

If we have good reason to believe that the one who is put over us spiritually is not putting as his highest priority, to watch over the souls of the flock, by teaching and preaching to them from the Word of God through doctrinally sound teaching and preaching, we should leave.

I used to attend a church which used this verse to justify all kinds of abuse, exploitation and treatment of those put under them, and demand undivided loyalty in return. That has no biblical basis at all.

I found these videos enlightening.

What to Look For in a Pastor
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Videos/T82GTY123A
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Videos/T82GTY123B

Elijah Lau
Nov 6th 2009, 12:11 PM
A leader appointed by man and allowed by God would end up being a Saul.
A leader appointed by God and confirmed by man would be like a David.

Samuel annoited Saul under the instruction of God too, and this is called appointed by man?

ZAB
Nov 6th 2009, 01:16 PM
Samuel annoited Saul under the instruction of God too, and this is called appointed by man?

God gave the people what they carnally asked for, though His best for them was King David. Overall, Saul was essentially appointed by men, IMO.

Z.

notuptome
Nov 6th 2009, 01:23 PM
Samuel annoited Saul under the instruction of God too, and this is called appointed by man?
Indeed this is an interesting example. God gave the people the king they wanted. A king after their own heart. This is in contrast to David who was a man after God's heart.

I fear that many churches have men in the pulpit that are after their own heart rather than seeking one after Gods heart. How else could we explain men who fail to meet the qualifications Paul gave Timothy? How else could we explain so many men in the pulpit overtaken in sin? How else do we explain these same men restored to the pulpit even after their sin is revealed? Is it any wonder that the church as so many problems? Insert in your thinking end times and teachers having itching ears.

God has men fit to pastor. Men do not always desire the men God desires in the pulpit. Godly men receive from God the leaders, deacons, SS teachers in the church. They train men and disciple them unto Godliness.

If we have not it is because we ask not or that we ask amiss.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 6th 2009, 01:31 PM
This is in contrast to David who was a man after God's heart.

How else could we explain so many men in the pulpit overtaken in sin? How else do we explain these same men restored to the pulpit even after their sin is revealed?

Roger, I'm so glad you brought up David. Believe me, David is one of the greatest men we read about in the Bible and I'm sure many would agree.

But here you say words that basically mean that a sin disqualifies any man of God, from ever being restored.

David sinned, both murder and adultery. Yes, he suffered the consequenses but he was forgiven and restored.

Has God changed and won't allow a man of God who sinned but repented to be restored these days?

According to your opinion He won't... Biblically, based on the prime example of David (who you used as a Man of God), the Lord will restore them.

notuptome
Nov 6th 2009, 01:54 PM
Roger, I'm so glad you brought up David. Believe me, David is one of the greatest men we read about in the Bible and I'm sure many would agree.

But here you say words that basically mean that a sin disqualifies any man of God, from ever being restored.

David sinned, both murder and adultery. Yes, he suffered the consequenses but he was forgiven and restored.

Has God changed and won't allow a man of God who sinned but repented to be restored these days?

According to your opinion He won't... Biblically, based on the prime example of David (who you used as a Man of God), the Lord will restore them.
God did not allow David to build the temple. Israel began to fall away from God and wind up going into captivity because of their unbelief. Davids sin made his family what we call today disfunctional.

God forgave David but Davids sin started a series of events that led to expulsion from the land. Israel awaits to this day their restoration. It will come when Christ returns to the earth.

Is that what God wants in the church? Israel is apostate. Israel was apostate when Christ came and Israel is apostate today.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Nov 6th 2009, 02:08 PM
God did not allow David to build the temple. Israel began to fall away from God and wind up going into captivity because of their unbelief. Davids sin made his family what we call today disfunctional.

God forgave David but Davids sin started a series of events that led to expulsion from the land. Israel awaits to this day their restoration. It will come when Christ returns to the earth.

Is that what God wants in the church? Israel is apostate. Israel was apostate when Christ came and Israel is apostate today.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHooah, but why did God allow him to be restored in his position of leadership then?

Was it cause David repented and the Lord forgave him of the sin(s)?

Granted any period of restoration will be long to regain the trust of man, but once repentant and forgiven... the period with God is done before a sinful man stands back up from his prayer of repentance and asking forgiveness.

ThyWordIsTruth
Nov 6th 2009, 02:32 PM
Roger, I'm so glad you brought up David. Believe me, David is one of the greatest men we read about in the Bible and I'm sure many would agree.

But here you say words that basically mean that a sin disqualifies any man of God, from ever being restored.

David sinned, both murder and adultery. Yes, he suffered the consequenses but he was forgiven and restored.

Has God changed and won't allow a man of God who sinned but repented to be restored these days?

According to your opinion He won't... Biblically, based on the prime example of David (who you used as a Man of God), the Lord will restore them.

Slug1,
David wasn't a pastor. God also restores us and forgives us when we sin. But the requirements of a pastor are clearly given in Scripture. A pastor must be above reproach.

1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Tit 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you--
Tit 1:6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.

We must not take vague and unclear verses in the Bible to justify a doctrine when there are very clear teachings on the matter. A pastor who has fallen into gross sin is not above reproach. He will never be above repraoch.

There are things in our lives where there are no second chances. The same thing happened with Moses. He served God faithfully and courageously throughout his entire life. Yet he disobeyed only once. JUST ONCE. And God said Moses, you will not enter into the Promised Land because you did not do exactly as I commanded.

The same goes with pastors. If you fall into sin, you voluntarily give up your right to be an under shepherd. This is God's clear command, why do we want to disobey it?

Steve M
Nov 6th 2009, 02:33 PM
The same goes with pastors. If you fall into sin, you voluntarily give up your right to be an under shepherd. This is God's clear command, why do we want to disobey it?

It says if they sin, we're to rebuke them in front of everybody. Doesn't say we then strip them of their position... unless I missed that.

Certainly if they are in a continuing sin or are unrepentant those verses apply.

notuptome
Nov 6th 2009, 03:07 PM
Hooah, but why did God allow him to be restored in his position of leadership then?

Was it cause David repented and the Lord forgave him of the sin(s)?

Granted any period of restoration will be long to regain the trust of man, but once repentant and forgiven... the period with God is done before a sinful man stands back up from his prayer of repentance and asking forgiveness.
I have no argument with God forgiving but trust once betrayed it is never completely restored. Men will always doubt the fidelity of one who has betrayed them. This is true for the oath they take to their wives and more so in their pledge of fidelity to the Lord who bought them.

I suppose men want pastors over them who have been unfaithful because in their hearts they believe they are planning the same? Many of the disciples turned back and followed Christ no more when He spoke openly of His impending death. It was too much for them to comprehend.

I think these are weighty matters and not to be addressed in a casual manner. Grave are the consequences from these actions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Elijah Lau
Nov 7th 2009, 01:05 AM
"leaders are appointed by men or God?"

This question always let people think of how successful a men carry out the task and relate it to the choice of God..... but is it really related?


Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 
So, in fact, none is perfect, and both David and Saul made mistake.
If none is perfect, why God still annoited David and Saul as king?

God didn't want to chose men, but God did it because people ask for it.


1Sam 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the Lord.

1Sam 8:7 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.




God want to be our King, do not want anyone to be our King.



Human tend to judge at appearance, tend to follow other man (Israel follow other country and request a king).... man follow man, end up both in lack of fire....


1Sam 9:2 And he had a son whose name was Saul, a handsome young man. There was not a man among the people of Israel more handsome than he. From his shoulders upward he was taller than any of the people.

1Sam 9:21 Saul answered, "Am I not a Benjaminite, from the least of the tribes of Israel? And is not my clan the humblest of all the clans of the tribe of Benjamin? Why then have you spoken to me in this way?"




1Sam 10:23 Then they ran and took him from there. And when he stood among the people, he was taller than any of the people from his shoulders upward.

1Sam 10:24 And Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see him whom the Lord has chosen? There is none like him among all the people." And all the people shouted, "Long live the king!"





1Sam 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart."


1Sam 17:28 Now Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spoke to the men. And Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, "Why have you come down? And with whom have you left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know your presumption and the evil of your heart, for you have come down to see the battle."









================================================== =====

I request all of you to read these verses, share your comment. I quoted from both Old testament and New Testament.


Matt 23:8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.

Matt 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

Matt 23:10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.





1Sam 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the Lord.

1Sam 8:7 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.

ThyWordIsTruth
Nov 7th 2009, 01:44 AM
It says if they sin, we're to rebuke them in front of everybody. Doesn't say we then strip them of their position... unless I missed that.

Certainly if they are in a continuing sin or are unrepentant those verses apply.

But it does say this:

1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

I guess it depends a lot on what kind of sin. If the pastor commits adultery, or is guilty of embezzelment, then it is clear from Scripture that he is a lover of money and no longer qualifies himself for leadership and must be removed.

However if he was unwise in some decision he made or the way he handled certain matters, then he could be rebuked and if he repents of it, be forgiven.

Tit 1:7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach.

We musn't forget who the pastor represents. He represents God. Both to outsiders and believers. His conduct must be an example for everyone else to follow. How can a pastor who has fallen into gross sin be an example to the flock?

His conduct must never cause another believer to stumble, because Jesus told us that it'll be better that he go hang a millstone around his neck and throw himself into the sea if he were to do that.

The office of pastor has a high requirement and a very high accountability before God and is not a thing to be taken lightly. For even teachers who teach doctrine in the church will be judged more strictly, what more under-shepherds who watch over the souls of the flock of Jesus.

Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Every wrong doctrine taught will, I believe, have to be accounted to God in the day he judges us.

Elijah Lau
Nov 7th 2009, 01:52 AM
But it does say this:

We musn't forget who the pastor represents. He represents God.


I am not agree with this.

amazzin
Nov 7th 2009, 02:05 AM
I've been a pastor for well over 30 years and I have seen it all. I have seen pastors who fall morally, who fall financially and some who have committed crimes.

I have been personally involved in seeing staff members caught or discovered in their sin. To have to confess their sin in public or some who have had to be rebuked in public.

As a pastor my responsibility does not end there. Galatians is very clear "that those who are Godly ....restore your brother". This is where the work begins. To restore them to God, to men and to those they perputrated their sin.

This takes years, sometimes as much as 5-10 years but those who fail, repent, show remorese, admit they have sinned, make restitution and begin the painful process of restoration may someday be able to assume their role as a leader in the church, even in the position of a pastor.

I have personally restored pastors after going through this process back into fellolwship with us at church. These services have been some of the most powerful services we have experienced where forgiveness is freely given. The outpouring of love by the church is a testiment that we can restore the fallen. Imagine the witness of a church who has been hurt forgive the pastor back to a place of minsitry!

ThyWordIsTruth
Nov 7th 2009, 02:15 AM
I've been a pastor for well over 30 years and I have seen it all. I have seen pastors who fall morally, who fall financially and some who have committed crimes.

I have been personally involved in seeing staff members caught or discovered in their sin. To have to confess their sin in public or some who have had to be rebuked in public.

As a pastor my responsibility does not end there. Galatians is very clear "that those who are Godly ....restore your brother". This is where the work begins. To restore them to God, to men and to those they perputrated their sin.

This takes years, sometimes as much as 5-10 years but those who fail, repent, show remorese, admit they have sinned, make restitution and begin the painful process of restoration may someday be able to assume their role as a leader in the church, even in the position of a pastor.

I have personally restored pastors after going through this process back into fellolwship with us at church. These services have been some of the most powerful services we have experienced where forgiveness is freely given. The outpouring of love by the church is a testiment that we can restore the fallen. Imagine the witness of a church who has been hurt forgive the pastor back to a place of minsitry!

Hi,
I'd like to ask for a precedent of this in the Bible. Has God ever restored and re-installed a person who had fallen into gross sin back into a position of spiritual authority? As priest, apostle or pastor?

I must remember that the Law of God states that we are to:
1) Love the Lord your God
2) Love your neighbour

(1) comes before (2) in order. (1) greatly dwarfs (2) in magnitude. But we as men tend to put (2) before (1).

If (1) is true and we love God's glory above everything else, then why would we tarnish his glory in the eyes of believers and even outsiders who will have a chance to blaspheme God because of a man's past behaviour?

God commanded us to restore fellow believers who sin, but the same is not taught concerning pastors who serve as examples to the flock.

I am not being unloving, but we must have a loyalty and commitment to the glory of God before all else. When we restore men who've sinned grossly in the past it gives others a chance to malign Christ all over again. If he falls again, men will malign and never stop talking about it.

Even up till now, people are still singing and talking about Jimmy Swaggert. What do you think the effect will be if he were restored to ministry?

amazzin
Nov 7th 2009, 02:25 AM
...God commanded us to restore fellow believers who sin, but the same is not taught concerning pastors who serve as examples to the flock.?

Just because the Bible doesn't use "restore the pastor", the issue is it is implied when it says to "restore your brother". Let's be careful not to look for specific verbage in order to apply a biblical principle. This restoration is not done lightly in my circles. In fact many refuse the stringent process because they still are hiding secrets they do not wish to reveal.

In the NT we have an example where a disciple of Jesus failed and was restored by Jesus himself

Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”




Even up till now, people are still singing and talking about Jimmy Swaggert. What do you think the effect will be if he were restored to ministry?

He was restored to ministry many years ago.

Elijah Lau
Nov 7th 2009, 02:32 AM
the discussion went out of topic....
@@

if you are discussing over the topic, please help me, to explain it more related to topic, so that i can catch some balls...

ThyWordIsTruth
Nov 7th 2009, 09:16 AM
Just because the Bible doesn't use "restore the pastor", the issue is it is implied when it says to "restore your brother". Let's be careful not to look for specific verbage in order to apply a biblical principle. This restoration is not done lightly in my circles. In fact many refuse the stringent process because they still are hiding secrets they do not wish to reveal.

Define what is meant by "restore" in the verses you quoted from? Does it mean restore to a position of spiritual authority, or is it talking about restoring to the fellowship of the saints? They are very different things.

What about the clear verbage that a pastor must be above reproach? What about all the other verses I brought up regarding the requirements of an under-shepherd specifically, which immediately disqualifies anyone who has fallen into immorality?


In the NT we have an example where a disciple of Jesus failed and was restored by Jesus himself

Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

We're not discussing failings under persecution of death here are we? We're talking about falling into gross sin, adultery in particular, here.

Peter did not fall into gross sin. According to Scripture God was the one who struck the shepherd and scattered the sheep (probably for their own protection as God needed them later to propogate the Gospel).


He was restored to ministry many years ago.

My mistake. Horrible thing to do IMO.

ThyWordIsTruth
Nov 7th 2009, 09:17 AM
the discussion went out of topic....
@@

if you are discussing over the topic, please help me, to explain it more related to topic, so that i can catch some balls...

Sorry, I promise to stay on topic

northMANjack
Nov 7th 2009, 09:38 AM
Yes, but in the modern American Church it rarely works that way. Paul and Timothy had strict guidelines on how a qualified leader in the Church is supposed to live. 1 This is a trustworthy saying: "If someone aspires to be an elder he desires an honorable position." 2 So an elder must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife.s He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. 3 He must not be a heavy drinkers or be violent. He must be gentle, not quarrelsome, and not love money. 4 He must manage his own family well, having children who respect and obey him. 5 For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God's church?
6 An elder must not be a new believer, because he might become proud, and the devil would cause him to fall 7 Also, people outside the church must speak well of him so that he will not be disgraced and fall into the devil's trap.
8 In the same way, deacons must be well respected and have integrity. They must not be heavy drinkers or dishonest with money. 9 They must be committed to the mystery of the faith now revealed and must live with a clear conscience. 10 Before they are appointed as deacons, let them be closely examined. If they pass the test, then let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, their wives must be respected and must not slander others. They must exercise self-control and be faithful in everything they do.
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife, and he must manage his children and household well. 13 Those who do well as deacons will be rewarded with respect from others and will have increased confidence in their faith in Christ Jesus.

If a Church leader becomes disqualified at anytime he must step down.

Elijah Lau
Nov 7th 2009, 10:29 AM
amazzin,

base on your experience and knowledge of bible, could you advise me a bit on the topic.

... appointed by men or by God?

and you may comment according to my previous posts, thank you.

notuptome
Nov 7th 2009, 02:24 PM
Consider Isaiah. Is 6:8 ...I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us? Then said I here am I; send me.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the womb I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

John the baptist did he go forth at the call of man or God?

God calls men the the ministry. Those who are appointed by a board at a denomination may not be called by God. Those who the congregations in the local assembly desire may not be called of God. I think there are many men in the pulpits that do not belong there. God has not put them there men have.

We can aid in the restoration of a brother. That does not automatically mean that they are fit or called of God to be restored to the pulpit. We can fool ourselves that our compassion is so great that we do a good thing to restore a man to the pulpit but we would not think it wise to offer a recovering drunk a drink.

For the cause of Christ
roger

Stormfreak1
Nov 7th 2009, 03:16 PM
In terms of someone getting directly endorsed by God's voice publicly for sustained leadership in a supernatural way; it is EXTREMELY rare in scripture; The only examples I can think of:

Jesus (Matthew 5:17)
Moses (Exodus 19:19)

These are the exceptions to the rule- where God spoke publicly.

However, there are many others whom God endorses their words with regular demonstrations of power- miraculous signs and wonders and victory.

In the Old Testament, God indirectly endorsed "appointed leadership" in public with open demonstrations of power through miraculous victories, signs, and wonders. Examples would include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Joshua, Gideon, Samuel, David, Solomon, Jehoshaphat, Elijah, Elisha, Hezekiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Esther etc.

New Testament examples of people getting indirectly endorsed by God are the 12 apostles, Paul, Stephen, and Philip.
In Church history, God has endorsed a hand full of people like this as well to a degree: Joan of Arc, St. Anthony of Egypt, David Brainard, John G. Lake, Kathryn Khulman etc. modern examples would potentially include Reinhard Bonke, Heidi Baker (for her work among the poor), and Carlos Annacondia.

In these cases, God is endorsing His message and purposes with power from on high; It does not necessarily mean everything in their character, or theology is perfect. In many cases where God anointed someone with a message demonstrated in supernatural power; The power of God through their lives "got to their heads" and they got WAY off. Power mixed with self-centeredness is VERY destructive.

Often God uses those who are broken and "written off" by people to display His power (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) that no flesh would glory in His presence. As I sort of stated in a different thread, Mature, wise, godly leadership that is not corrupted by power (even supernatural power) is a gift from God Himself (Ephesians 4:11-13).

Of course, we then need to ask questions such as: Why doesn't God endorse good people with regular demonstrations of power? Why do all who preach the Gospel, often do so with a serious lack of the presence of God (let alone the power of God openly manifested in our local congregations)?

Scripture actually tells us to pray for "approved laborers" people of utmost integrity and radical consecration that He would be pleased to anoint in power. (Matthew 9:35-38). However, the ones God "approves" with power are often the "last ones" that we as human beings (even in the Body of Christ) would approve for leadership. (God, give us the real gift of discernment from YOUR perspective!)

If we do not value the approval of God (because we actually want to know His Him; his will and ways), we end up with a popularity contest- even in the Church!

Scripture also tells me from Romans 13; Isaiah 3:6-7 and other passages that God sometimes appoints immature (or even rebellious leaders) over His people as a sign of His displeasure and as a method of judgment/discipline for His people. We get the quality of leaders from God that we deserve. King Saul was such a man over Israel. I know of a situation where God has allowed immature leadership to rise within a Church as discipline for the people in hopes that they will turn to Him and repent.

I will probably stir more questions than answer, but that's what forums like this are for!

Elijah Lau
Nov 8th 2009, 10:29 AM
In terms of someone getting directly endorsed by God's voice publicly for sustained leadership in a supernatural way; it is EXTREMELY rare in scripture; The only examples I can think of:

Jesus (Matthew 5:17)
Moses (Exodus 19:19)

These are the exceptions to the rule- where God spoke publicly.

However, there are many others whom God endorses their words with regular demonstrations of power- miraculous signs and wonders and victory.

In the Old Testament, God indirectly endorsed "appointed leadership" in public with open demonstrations of power through miraculous victories, signs, and wonders. Examples would include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Joshua, Gideon, Samuel, David, Solomon, Jehoshaphat, Elijah, Elisha, Hezekiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Esther etc.

New Testament examples of people getting indirectly endorsed by God are the 12 apostles, Paul, Stephen, and Philip.
In Church history, God has endorsed a hand full of people like this as well to a degree: Joan of Arc, St. Anthony of Egypt, David Brainard, John G. Lake, Kathryn Khulman etc. modern examples would potentially include Reinhard Bonke, Heidi Baker (for her work among the poor), and Carlos Annacondia.

In these cases, God is endorsing His message and purposes with power from on high; It does not necessarily mean everything in their character, or theology is perfect. In many cases where God anointed someone with a message demonstrated in supernatural power; The power of God through their lives "got to their heads" and they got WAY off. Power mixed with self-centeredness is VERY destructive.

Often God uses those who are broken and "written off" by people to display His power (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) that no flesh would glory in His presence. As I sort of stated in a different thread, Mature, wise, godly leadership that is not corrupted by power (even supernatural power) is a gift from God Himself (Ephesians 4:11-13).

Of course, we then need to ask questions such as: Why doesn't God endorse good people with regular demonstrations of power? Why do all who preach the Gospel, often do so with a serious lack of the presence of God (let alone the power of God openly manifested in our local congregations)?

Scripture actually tells us to pray for "approved laborers" people of utmost integrity and radical consecration that He would be pleased to anoint in power. (Matthew 9:35-38). However, the ones God "approves" with power are often the "last ones" that we as human beings (even in the Body of Christ) would approve for leadership. (God, give us the real gift of discernment from YOUR perspective!)

If we do not value the approval of God (because we actually want to know His Him; his will and ways), we end up with a popularity contest- even in the Church!

Scripture also tells me from Romans 13; Isaiah 3:6-7 and other passages that God sometimes appoints immature (or even rebellious leaders) over His people as a sign of His displeasure and as a method of judgment/discipline for His people. We get the quality of leaders from God that we deserve. King Saul was such a man over Israel. I know of a situation where God has allowed immature leadership to rise within a Church as discipline for the people in hopes that they will turn to Him and repent.

I will probably stir more questions than answer, but that's what forums like this are for!

i like your comment and analysis, especially those words i bolded.

In fact, none man is perfect, neither in understanding nor character. God still choose to use human to share Gospel, appointed 12 disciples, and become apostles in later stage.

By the time that God appointed man, doesn't mean that everything that he speak is from God.

ThyWordIsTruth
Nov 9th 2009, 05:42 AM
amazzin,

base on your experience and knowledge of bible, could you advise me a bit on the topic.

... appointed by men or by God?

and you may comment according to my previous posts, thank you.

I'm not really sure, however Scripture in the NT does not teach that there must be a special calling of God in order to become an elder/pastor.

1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

Hence it says "if anyone aspires" not "if anyone is called by God."

However one can argue that only certain people have the aspiration, so can one then translate aspiration to a call? This is very subjective and cannot be certain.

So unless someone else has some other Scripture to say otherwise, I believe that God has laid down his qualifications and standards and if you aspire to be an elder and you meet those qualifications, you can take it that you are acceptable to God to be an elder of the church.

Elijah Lau
Nov 9th 2009, 11:35 AM
I'm not really sure, however Scripture in the NT does not teach that there must be a special calling of God in order to become an elder/pastor.

1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

Hence it says "if anyone aspires" not "if anyone is called by God."

However one can argue that only certain people have the aspiration, so can one then translate aspiration to a call? This is very subjective and cannot be certain.

So unless someone else has some other Scripture to say otherwise, I believe that God has laid down his qualifications and standards and if you aspire to be an elder and you meet those qualifications, you can take it that you are acceptable to God to be an elder of the church.



1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

this verse simply define the aspiration to the office of overseer is equalls to desires a noble task, no?


I believe that the call has been made to everyone who opened the bible and read.


i explain my understanding through the gift of teaching.

==============================================
If you meet someone that can teach the Word of God very well, do you admire?
Do you wish to have the same gift of teaching?



Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:19)
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:20)


And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:28)


And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, (Ephesians 4:11)


So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. (1 Corinthians 14:12)


Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. (1 Corinthians 14:1)


For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, (1 Corinthians 14:31)




The meaning of prophesy doesn’t limited to “say something that going to happen in future”. Actual meaning of prophesy is simply means “preaching God’s Words”. Of course, when prophets saying God’s Words, they bring out the concepts of Law of Moses and Judgement of God that is going to be passed down, so that people return from their wicked way….



About concept of gift, we, as Christians, normally have half-true concept.
Gift is something that given by others, not to earn it yourself. People give you, and you receive.
We also think “If God gives me, I will have it. If He refuses to give me, I won’t have it.” It is nothing wrong to have such concept about gift.



Where is another half-true concept to have it complete?
Read Luke Chapter 11 for 7 times.
Ask for it.
Pray for it.
Desire for it.
Until you receive it.
Then use it for His Glory seek…..
Learn the Word by heart, under the guidance of Holy Spirit, until you know the truth, then you can preach the truth.

I never see any Christian who never studies Bible, but God suddenly grant him supernatural wisdom to teach Word of God. God can do it of course, no doubt. But God want us to learn…..Teachers have gone through the process of learning, then only they teach.



After sometimes, they can teach very well, they say something like this humbly,
“If He didn’t grant Holy Spirit to guide me, I will never understand.”
“If He didn’t touch me to pray, I will never pray to Him”
“If He didn’t move me with great love, I will never learn by heart”
“If He didn’t………………………
“If He didn’t…………………..



We humbly admit that all is from God, so everything is a gift, and we thank Him for everything.

==============================

to me, calling is something that God give you to exercise your gifts.
we all are called to learn, and after we learnt well, we are automatically called to teach.

we are the those who teach, but we are not teachers. @@

ZAB
Nov 10th 2009, 01:35 PM
...

Scripture actually tells us to pray for "approved laborers" people of utmost integrity and radical consecration that He would be pleased to anoint in power. (Matthew 9:35-38). However, the ones God "approves" with power are often the "last ones" that we as human beings (even in the Body of Christ) would approve for leadership. (God, give us the real gift of discernment from YOUR perspective!)

If we do not value the approval of God (because we actually want to know His Him; his will and ways), we end up with a popularity contest- even in the Church!

...

Regarding such a truth, Solomon rightly said: "Folly is set in great dignity, and the rich sit in low place. I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth" (Eccl 10:6-7).

Perhaps our methods for choosing leadership need a bit of an adjustment?

Z.

Steve M
Nov 10th 2009, 01:47 PM
It's important to note that He lays out the exacting qualifications not once, but twice. He considered it so important He repeated himself to make sure we paid attention.

If we're not immediately familiar with those qualifications, then we're definitely not ready to start making a choice......