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IsItLove?
Dec 21st 2009, 01:35 PM
Where does it say Satan is an angel?

I cant find it.

Could it be that Satan is a principality or power?

notuptome
Dec 21st 2009, 01:57 PM
Could be 2 Cor 11:14 is what you are thinking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

divaD
Dec 21st 2009, 02:22 PM
Where does it say Satan is an angel?

I cant find it.

Could it be that Satan is a principality or power?



As far as the intelligent kind, there's only 3 classes of beings, isn't there? God, angels, and man. Since we know that he is not of the class of God nor man, that only leaves the class of angels. IMO, even if a passage can't be found that specifically identifies satan as an angel, it shouldn't matter, since the Bible never records another class of beings that I know of, besides these 3. Genesis 3 seems to imply that satan is a beast of the field. This could be in a spiritual sense tho.

David Taylor
Dec 21st 2009, 03:04 PM
Where does it say Satan is an angel?

I cant find it.



Here are the most common passages attributed to Satan that give the notion he is/was an angel (or demon/aka fallen angel).

2 Corinthians 11:14 "for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Ezekiel tells uses personification of the King of Tyre to describe a post-fall Satan here: (Also read Ezekiel 31, which some believe is another personification of Satan being applied to Pharoah of Egypt)

28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

Isaiah uses the King of Babylon as a personification of Satan, using the name 'Lucifer' to reference him here:

14:11 "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. "


John speaks of a battle in Heaven between holy angels mustered by Michael; and Satan and his angels; making references to the above passages that spoke of Satan being cast down to the Earth:

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. "



Some interpret the following passage in Job to denote an ancient meeting that God held with Satan and the other angels after Satan's fall:

Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Some also interpret the Angel Apollyon to be Satan based on linking these verses:

Revelation 9:11 "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."
Revelation 12:3 "and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."
Revelation 17:3,8 "a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

paidforinfull
Dec 21st 2009, 03:09 PM
Where does it say Satan is an angel?

I cant find it.

Could it be that Satan is a principality or power?


:idea: A light has just gone up in mind: It seems there is some confusion here - I guess what you mean is "What order of angels does satan belong to?" (If this isn't what you meant I apologize)

If this is the case, then it is indeed an interesting question, and I myself was considering starting a thread on this topic.
All heavenly beings are angels, but there are different classes.

The general assumption is that satan is an archangel. Nowhere in the Bible does it state he is an archangel, but he is certainly the leader of the powers of darkness on Earth. A leader is usually a stronger being than his/her followers.

For clarification's sake:
1. Angels are heavenly beings.
2. There are different classes of angels: Thrones, Principalities, Powers, Seraphims, Cherubs, Archangels and (normal) angels (such as the messenger angels, guardian angels, warrior angels, those who minister to God and to people, etc.). They are all angels, but they often look different and some are more powerful than others.

If satan is indeed a cherub, it would mean that he is actually higher and more powerful than an archangel.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 is very interesting. This is a prophecy brought against the King of Tyre (as opposed to the ruler of Tyre who is addressed in the first half of Ezekiel 28). Many scholars believe this prophecy to be directed at satan and I agree with them. If this is indeed so, and I believe it is, then satan is actually a Cherub and not a (normal) angel. Cherubim are of a higher order of angels and therefore much more powerful. Also, he was not just any cherub, but one who was appointed a guardian cherub in the Garden of Eden. This would also explain why he was present and able to communicate with Eve.

Ezekiel 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "‘You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendour. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.’" (NIV - bold letters mine)

divaD
Dec 21st 2009, 03:52 PM
then satan is actually a Cherub and not an angel. Cherubim are of a higher order than angels and therefore much more powerful. Also, he was not just any cherub


In the military, generals are of a higher order than privates. Does this mean that generals aren't human?


Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

If there is another entirely different type of species, such as cherubs, who are not angels, then I wonder why it wouldn't say that Jesus was made a little lower than them too? If cherubs are not included in the class of angels, this basically means that cherubs are equal to Jesus. We know this can't be so, because only God is equal to Jesus, because Jesus is God.

paidforinfull
Dec 21st 2009, 04:10 PM
In the military, generals are of a higher order than privates. Does this mean that generals aren't human?

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

If there is another entirely different type of species, such as cherubs, who are not angels, then I wonder why it wouldn't say that Jesus was made a little lower than them too? If cherubs are not included in the class of angels, this basically means that cherubs are equal to Jesus. We know this can't be so, because only God is equal to Jesus, because Jesus is God.

I have changed my original post for clarification's sake. (I apologize if I was unclear - I think I misunderstood the OP)

1. Angels are heavenly beings.
2. There are different classes of angels: Thrones, Principalities, Powers, Seraphims, Cherubs, Archangels and (normal) angels (such as the messenger angels, guardian angels, warrior angels, those who minister to God and to people, etc.). They are all angels, but they often look different and some are more powerful than others.

When I said satan is not an angel, I meant he is not one of the lower classes of angels (what people commonly think of as an angel), and he is not an archangel (such as Gabriel) who are angelic leaders. Cherubs are not a different species of angels, but they are of a higher order. They also look different (as described in Ezekiel). If satan is a cherub, it would mean that he is actually higher and more powerful than an archangel.

I hope this is more clear.

markedward
Dec 21st 2009, 05:12 PM
This whole "different classes of angels" thing is a man-made tradition from the Middle Ages. It's not in Scripture. Someone took a verse written by Paul drastically out of context.

First. "Thrones" and "principalities" and "powers" are not "classes" of angels. Actually read the verses that mentions these things. Colossians 1.16. Paul is not speaking about angels here. He is stating that God himself is responsible for any power of authority, whether in heaven or on earth. And Ephesians 1.21. Paul is not speaking about angels here. He is stating that Christ had been exalted above all powers of authority, for all time.

Second. The cherubim and the seraphim are not once called "angels" in Scripture. You can't claim there's a whole class of angels called "cherubim" or "seraphim" if they're never identified as "angels". If you're going to claim that Satan used to be a cherub, you can't claim he was also an angel. He's one or the other, not both.

Third. Scripture never says that there is more than one "archangel". The term is used only twice in all of the Bible, and both times it is used with the article "the"... the "archangel" is a one-of-a-kind individual. If you're going to claim that Satan was a cherub, he certainly can't be an archangel. And if you're going to claim that Satan was an archangel... you're blatantly contradicting Scripture, which only ever mentions one "archangel".

IsItLove?
Dec 21st 2009, 05:14 PM
every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Wow, thanks much.
This actually confirmed a dream.

Glory to God!

IsItLove?
Dec 21st 2009, 05:26 PM
Thanks for your post.
Is the hierarchy and roles of the angelic types known?

paidforinfull
Dec 21st 2009, 05:27 PM
...The cherubim and the seraphim are not once called "angels" in Scripture. You can't claim there's a whole class of angels called "cherubim" or "seraphim" if they're never identified as "angels". If you're going to claim that Satan used to be a cherub, you can't claim he was also an angel. He's one or the other, not both.

All heavenly beings are angels.


Scripture never says that there is more than one "archangel". The term is used only twice in all of the Bible, and both times it is used with the article "the"... the "archangel" is a one-of-a-kind individual. If you're going to claim that Satan was a cherub, he certainly can't be an archangel. And if you're going to claim that Satan was an archangel... you're blatantly contradicting Scripture, which only ever mentions one "archangel".

Yes, as I said, if satan is a Cherub he can't be an archangel.

Now, you are totally wrong about Michael being the only archangel. In Jude 1:9 Michael is referred to as an archangel, and in Daniel 10:13 he is called ONE of the chief princes, which certainly indicates that there are others like him.

I quote from Scripture:

Jude 1:9 "But even the archangel Michael, ..."

and

Daniel 10:13 "...Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia."

If you are interested you can read my post titled 'A Short Study on Angels" by following this link - http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=198540

(markedward, I think you should be more careful before accusing people of 'blatantly contradicting Scripture' in future.)

IsItLove?
Dec 21st 2009, 05:35 PM
This whole "different classes of angels" thing is a man-made tradition from the Middle Ages. It's not in Scripture. Someone took a verse written by Paul drastically out of context.

First. "Thrones" and "principalities" and "powers" are not "classes" of angels. Actually read the verses that mentions these things. Colossians 1.16. Paul is not speaking about angels here. He is stating that God himself is responsible for any power of authority, whether in heaven or on earth. And Ephesians 1.21. Paul is not speaking about angels here. He is stating that Christ had been exalted above all powers of authority, for all time.

Second. The cherubim and the seraphim are not once called "angels" in Scripture. You can't claim there's a whole class of angels called "cherubim" or "seraphim" if they're never identified as "angels". If you're going to claim that Satan used to be a cherub, you can't claim he was also an angel. He's one or the other, not both.

I agree.
Still, Just because something is not said, does not negate its possibility does it?


Third. Scripture never says that there is more than one "archangel". The term is used only twice in all of the Bible, and both times it is used with the article "the"... the "archangel" is a one-of-a-kind individual. If you're going to claim that Satan was a cherub, he certainly can't be an archangel. And if you're going to claim that Satan was an archangel... you're blatantly contradicting Scripture, which only ever mentions one "archangel".
Perhaps he was replaced?
It seems more of a role or position rather then a type?
Or is there no separation between role and form?

paidforinfull
Dec 21st 2009, 05:44 PM
Perhaps he was replaced?
It seems more of a role or position rather then a type?
Or is there no separation between role and form?

I quote here from one of my previous posts:

Michael is not the only archangel. In Jude 1:9 Michael is referred to as an archangel, and in Daniel 10:13 he is called ONE of the chief princes, which certainly indicates that there are others like him.

I quote from Scripture:

Jude 1:9 "But even the archangel Michael, ..."

and

Daniel 10:13 "...Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia."

The Mighty Sword
Dec 21st 2009, 05:50 PM
This whole "different classes of angels" thing is a man-made tradition from the Middle Ages. It's not in Scripture. Someone took a verse written by Paul drastically out of context.

First. "Thrones" and "principalities" and "powers" are not "classes" of angels. Actually read the verses that mentions these things. Colossians 1.16. Paul is not speaking about angels here. He is stating that God himself is responsible for any power of authority, whether in heaven or on earth. And Ephesians 1.21. Paul is not speaking about angels here. He is stating that Christ had been exalted above all powers of authority, for all time.

Second. The cherubim and the seraphim are not once called "angels" in Scripture. You can't claim there's a whole class of angels called "cherubim" or "seraphim" if they're never identified as "angels". If you're going to claim that Satan used to be a cherub, you can't claim he was also an angel. He's one or the other, not both.

Third. Scripture never says that there is more than one "archangel". The term is used only twice in all of the Bible, and both times it is used with the article "the"... the "archangel" is a one-of-a-kind individual. If you're going to claim that Satan was a cherub, he certainly can't be an archangel. And if you're going to claim that Satan was an archangel... you're blatantly contradicting Scripture, which only ever mentions one "archangel".

What is a cheribum or cherub and were there, are there other creatures in heaven other than the angelic beings???

divaD
Dec 21st 2009, 05:50 PM
Thanks for your post.
Is the hierarchy and roles of the angelic types known?

The Bible teaches there are basically 3 classes of beings..God, angelic, man. I'm not aware of another type..one that wouldn't fit into one of these 3 categories. And I'm not talking about animals, etc. Clearly that is another type..except they can't communicate with God the way angels and man can.

markedward
Dec 21st 2009, 06:58 PM
Still, Just because something is not said, does not negate its possibility does it?Only if you assume it, without any Scripture to validate your assumption.


Perhaps he was replaced?Again... only if you assume it, without any Scripture to validate your assumption.


It seems more of a role or position rather then a type?Yes. The title of "Archangel" literally means "Chief of the angels". It's the New Testament equivalent to the title "Commander of YHWH's host" of the Old Testament.




All heavenly beings are angels.Says what Scripture? The cherubim and the seraphim are clearly distinguished as heavenly beings... but not once are they identified as "angels".


Now, you are totally wrong about Michael being the only archangel. In Jude 1:9 Michael is referred to as an archangel,The Greek uses the definitive article ("the" in English). Jude 9 refers to Michael as the archangel, not "an" archangel. Don't water it down.


and in Daniel 10:13 he is called ONE of the chief princes, which certainly indicates that there are others like him.The Hebrew word translated as "one" in many translations also means "first" or "foremost". (Examples: Genesis 1.5 "There was evening, and there was night; the first day." Genesis 2.11: "The name of the first is the Pishon." Daniel 6.2: "... and over them three presidents, of whom Daniel was first, to whom these satraps should give account...") As in... Michael is the foremost of the chief princes. In which case, he is still taking on a unique leadership role.




What is a cheribum or cherub and where there, are there other creatures in heaven other than the angelic beings???Angels are angels. Cherubim are cherubim. The fact that the cherubim are so drastically different in physical appearance from anyone ever called "angel" in the Bible should be a tip that they are a different created being. Cherubim aren't angels.

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 21st 2009, 06:59 PM
Scripture declares that the Lake of Fire is prepared for who??

'the devil and his angels'....

and no wonder... for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light....

it seems that those 'under command' or 'control' , of the devil ........ are angels.. according to what the Scripture declares..

the use of the word 'his' .. shows ownership.... possession ...

he controls, he commands them... these who particpated in the Insurrection at the beginning...

is Satan God? no... although he believes he is and wants to be worhsipped as God.. and he is declared to be the 'god' of this world..

is he man? no, although he can possess, oppress, harass , and vex men.. and not only him but those angels who follow him and are subordiante to him

if he is not God and not man... then he must be a supernatural being, most likely some class of angelic being.... who operates in the supernatural and can manifest himself in the natural...

for those who are under the belief that satan does not exist, that he is some 'blob' of negative charma or energy...

that is deception..

he is real.. and he is alive.. he is as real as the five fingers on your hand.. that you use to type or post on this website..

divaD
Dec 21st 2009, 07:55 PM
The Hebrew word translated as "one" in many translations also means "first" or "foremost". (Examples: Genesis 1.5 "There was evening, and there was night; the first day." Genesis 2.11: "The name of the first is the Pishon." Daniel 6.2: "... and over them three presidents, of whom Daniel was first, to whom these satraps should give account...") As in... Michael is the foremost of the chief princes. In which case, he is still taking on a unique leadership role.

Per that context, since the Hebrew word for 'chief' can also mean foremost, how do you then interpret it? Such as the following?

but, lo, Michael, foremost of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

Obviously, since 2 different Hebrew words are used, they wouldn't mean the same thing, would they? Wouldn't it be more likely that it means the following?

but, lo, Michael, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

Meaning that he is one of many others, or at least meaning that there are others.

David Taylor
Dec 21st 2009, 08:04 PM
But we shouldn't read 'archangel' into the word "princes" in that one Daniel passage.

princes in the OT is not defined as archangel in this text.

We could just as easily see 'one of the foremost princes' as being.....

....one of the foremost angels......
....one of the foremost messengers...
....one of the foremost heavenly hosts....

etc.

What others have metioned above, and it is scripturally true...only Michael is denoted by name to be an archangel; and the bible never uses the term archangel plurarly.

One must read into texts like Daniel to arrive at that extra-biblical conclusion.

I know the RCC has dozens of named angels, and different classes, and diffent distinctions, etc....

But solely talking Biblically; there is only one named archangel. (Michael)

divaD
Dec 23rd 2009, 03:08 PM
Where does it say Satan is an angel?

I cant find it.

Could it be that Satan is a principality or power?



I also posted this in unrelated thread, but the verse that shows satan is an angel, wouldn't it be Revelation 12:7?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Since we are talking about the Scriptures here, it would be inconsistant for one part of Revelation 12:7 to mean one thing, then another part to mean entirely something different.

Take Michael for instance. The Bible tells us that he's the archangel. This would mean he's an angel, correct? Revelation 12:7 also tells us that he has angels, as in charge of them. We see the same thing about the dragon aka satan.
he also has angels, and he too ranks higher than them, such as a general might rank above a private. Keeping in mind that this is Scriptures we're talking about here, if Michael is an angel, and that he has charge over his angels, and if satan also has angels, and if he too has charge over them, then logically deducing, this makes satan an angel. A fallen angel, but an angel nonetheless.
If anyone wants to argue with this logic, then fine, but in my opin it is the only logical conclusion to come to, based on what we know in regards to Michael and his angels.

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 23rd 2009, 05:14 PM
I also posted this in unrelated thread, but the verse that shows satan is an angel, wouldn't it be Revelation 12:7?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Since we are talking about the Scriptures here, it would be inconsistant for one part of Revelation 12:7 to mean one thing, then another part to mean entirely something different.

Take Michael for instance. The Bible tells us that he's the archangel. This would mean he's an angel, correct? Revelation 12:7 also tells us that he has angels, as in charge of them. We see the same thing about the dragon aka satan.
he also has angels, and he too ranks higher than them, such as a general might rank above a private. Keeping in mind that this is Scriptures we're talking about here, if Michael is an angel, and that he has charge over his angels, and if satan also has angels, and if he too has charge over them, then logically deducing, this makes satan an angel. A fallen angel, but an angel nonetheless.
If anyone wants to argue with this logic, then fine, but in my opin it is the only logical conclusion to come to, based on what we know in regards to Michael and his angels.

I agree with your conclusion and your spot on 100%

Naphal
Feb 6th 2010, 06:12 PM
Third. Scripture never says that there is more than one "archangel". The term is used only twice in all of the Bible, and both times it is used with the article "the"... the "archangel" is a one-of-a-kind individual. If you're going to claim that Satan was a cherub, he certainly can't be an archangel. And if you're going to claim that Satan was an archangel... you're blatantly contradicting Scripture, which only ever mentions one "archangel".

Scripture mentions more than one archangel.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is the archangel most know of.


Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Here we see Michael spoken of again but a different term for Archangel is used, "chief Prince" and we see that Michael is but one of them. We do not know how many others there are but he is only one of them as opposed to the only one.







Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Steven3
Feb 7th 2010, 03:32 AM
Hi Isitlove :)
Where does it say Satan is an angel?

I cant find it.
Num 22:22 But God's anger was kindled because he went, and the angel of the Lord took his stand in the way as his adversary (Hebrew = satan). Now he was riding on the donkey, and his two servants were with him.

2Co 11:14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
(one of 4 citations from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_of_Adam_and_Eve in 2Co 10-12) ... in the Jewish legend Satan transforms himself into an angel of light outside the walls of Eden to get his associate the serpent to tempt Eve. In Judaism of this period Satan is not by nature an angel.
Interesting parallels can be found with some New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) passages, such as the mention of the Tree of Life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Life_%28Judeo-Christian%29) in Revelation 22:2 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Revelation&verse=22:2&src=KJV). The more striking resemblances are with ideas in the Pauline epistles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles): Eve as the source of sin (2 Corinthians 11:3 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=2%20Corinthians&verse=11:3&src=KJV)), Satan disguising himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=2%20Corinthians&verse=11:14&src=KJV)), the location of the paradise in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=2%20Corinthians&verse=12:2&src=KJV)).



or the Matt passage "the devil and his angels" and Rev 12 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

But Satan is not called an angel, or an archangel, he has angels. He also has children. And goats. But the children and goats aren't literal children and goats = they are men, so Satan's angels may not be literal either = they may be men too.


Could it be that Satan is a principality or power?That's something different again http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=A&artid=1521
God bless
Steven

Naphal
Feb 7th 2010, 06:49 AM
Perhaps a thread discussing exactly what an angel is, or is not is in order.

webhead
Feb 8th 2010, 04:06 AM
Perhaps a thread discussing exactly what an angel is, or is not is in order.

Good idea.

Angel usually translates as "messenger" in both the Hebrew and Greek.

Naphal
Feb 8th 2010, 05:36 AM
The Greek uses the definitive article ("the" in English). Jude 9 refers to Michael as the archangel, not "an" archangel. Don't water it down.

A definitive article does not imply that the person or thing is the one and only, sole example.

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Despite the presence of a def. article, this Alexander wasn't the only coppersmith in the world and nor does Paul intend to imply such a concept.


The Hebrew word translated as "one" in many translations also means "first" or "foremost".

As in... Michael is the foremost of the chief princes. In which case, he is still taking on a unique leadership role.

And it also can mean "one" as in this very scripture. The sentence properly reads as it has been translated. The translators know that the sentence reads that Michael is "one of" a group of princes, not that he is the foremost. He may be the foremost but this verse does not address it.


Genesis 21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

Here is the same wording yet the translators know when something means foremost and when it simply means "one of".



Cherubim aren't angels.

Even if they are acting as a messenger?

Naphal
Feb 8th 2010, 05:44 AM
Yes satan is an angel, so isnt Micahel. Any heavenly created being is an angel in a generic term in the sense of a "heavenly being". An angel may have a more specific description or title such as Cherub:

3742

03742 k@ruwb {ker-oob'}

of uncertain derivation; TWOT - 1036; n m

AV - cherubims 64, cherub 27; 91

1) cherub, cherubim (pl)
1a) an angelic being
1a1) as guardians of Eden
1a2) as flanking God's throne
1a3) as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant
1a4) as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)








I also posted this in unrelated thread, but the verse that shows satan is an angel, wouldn't it be Revelation 12:7?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Since we are talking about the Scriptures here, it would be inconsistant for one part of Revelation 12:7 to mean one thing, then another part to mean entirely something different.

Take Michael for instance. The Bible tells us that he's the archangel. This would mean he's an angel, correct? Revelation 12:7 also tells us that he has angels, as in charge of them. We see the same thing about the dragon aka satan.
he also has angels, and he too ranks higher than them, such as a general might rank above a private. Keeping in mind that this is Scriptures we're talking about here, if Michael is an angel, and that he has charge over his angels, and if satan also has angels, and if he too has charge over them, then logically deducing, this makes satan an angel. A fallen angel, but an angel nonetheless.
If anyone wants to argue with this logic, then fine, but in my opin it is the only logical conclusion to come to, based on what we know in regards to Michael and his angels.

Naphal
Feb 8th 2010, 05:48 AM
Good idea.

Angel usually translates as "messenger" in both the Hebrew and Greek.

Lets check:

4397

04397 mal'ak {mal-awk'}

from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; TWOT - 1068a; n m

AV - angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1; 214

1) messenger, representative
1a) messenger
1b) angel
1c) the theophanic angel


The hebrew translates this word as angel 111 times and as messenger 98 times, ambassadors 4, variant 1 for a total os 214 total.

32

32 aggelos {ang'-el-os}

from aggello [probably derived from 71, cf 34] (to bring tidings);
TDNT - 1:74,12; n m

AV - angel 179, messenger 7; 186

1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger
from God


The greek translates this word as angel 179 times but messenger only 7 times.


Angel usually translates as ANGEL most of the time in hebrew and greek but significantly more in the greek.