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goykodesh
Dec 22nd 2009, 07:42 PM
As promised, I am posting a study I did on 'shadows.' This topic came up in a study of Hebrews. We can't always assume the writer has the same thought pattern as we do, so how do we discover them?

Hebrews 8:4-5
(4) For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;
(5) who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "SEE THAT YOU MAKE ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."

Hebrews 10:1
(1) For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

In the early 4th Century BC, the Greek Philosopher Plato gave us the Cave Analogy in his work "Republic." Essentially, the Cave Analogy is that man in his current state is confined in a cave, where higher reality is casting shadows on the back wall of the cae. Man is limited to knowing reality by what is dimly projected by those shadows.

Plato was wrong.

The Greek word "shadow" is "skia." Skia is used in the Septuagint as the translation to the Hebrew word "tzel." It comes from the Hebrew root "tzalal." which alludes to "hovering over."

Here are some examples of "tzel" in the OT

Genesis 19:8
(8) See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow (tzel) of my roof."

1 Chronicles 29:15
(15) For we are aliens and pilgrims before You, As were all our fathers; Our days on earth are as a shadow (tzel), And without hope.

Psalms 36:5-9
(5) Your mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; Your faithfulness reaches to the clouds.
(6) Your righteousness is like the great mountains; Your judgments are a great deep; O LORD, You preserve man and beast.
(7) How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow [tzel] of Your wings.
(8) They are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house, And You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures.
(9) For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light.

(Isa 4:5 NKJV) then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering.
(Isa 4:6 NKJV) And there will be a tabernacle for shade [tzel] in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

(Isa 49:2 NKJV) And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow [tzel] of His hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has hidden Me."
(Isa 49:3 NKJV) "And He said to me, 'You are My servant, O Israel, In whom I will be glorified.'

Is a shadow a good thing? Bad thing? Maybe it depends? What tells one if a shadw is a good thing or a bad thing is not the sadow, but what the shape is pointing to, or outlining. What makes the difference is the substance, or the 'shadow-caster.' Seeing the picture, or the outline, or shadow reveals the substance:

"But I am the LORD your God
Who divided the sea whos waves roared-
The LORD of hosts is His name
And I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand
That I may plant the heavens
Lay the foundations of the earth
And say to Zion, "You are My people."
-Isaiah 51:15-16

Although this is using a figure of speech, if it were literal , what would the shadow look like? What shape would it take?

Read the following and see it's relation to Isaiah 51:15-16

Becuse what may be known to God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being misunderstood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
- Romans 1:19-20

When we beging to read the three references in the NT to the Greek equivalent to "tzel" a pattern emerges. It seems our translators cannot imagine a shadow being a good thing - that the reference to a shadow is a Hebraic reference to the physicial world.

Let's take an example.

(Heb 8:4 NKJV) For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;
(Heb 8:5 NKJV) who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "SEE THAT YOU MAKE ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."

Hebrews 8:4 plainly states: "For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest......" It's clear Jesus operates in a separate venue than the priesthood of Levi. So, where is it that priests on earth serve? In the 'copy and shadow.." as Moses was divinely instructed when he wsa about to make the tabernacle.

(Exo 25:9 NKJV) According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it.

(Exo 26:30 NKJV) And you shall raise up the tabernacle according to its pattern which you were shown on the mountain.


(Act 7:44 NKJV) "Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen,

Read the above verses and answer - "What is the earthly tabernacle a copy of? Reading Exodus 25:1-9 will illustrate the purpose for the tabernacle. Was it to he a "house" for God? Where does it say God would dwell?

Below is the passsage that has been used traditionally to sum up why the Tabernacle/Temple system has been replaced by the "temple" represented by the assembly of believers, the "body of Messiah." As we take a look at this, remember the hint we had if this in the picture of the priesthood of Aaron being priesthoods not in conflict, but for different venues (earth/heaven).

If can understand who the two parts of the earthly Tabernacle worked together, we can better understand how Jesus' work in the Heavenly Tabernacle is not just superior in effectiveness to the earthly Tabernacle, but one can best understand the work of Jesus by looking at copy and shadow. There are two parts to the earthly Tabernacle - the visible part and the invisible part. The invisible part is that which is behind the veil in the Holy of Holies where only the High Priest can go - and only once a year.

Every time the Greek word 'protos' (first) is used, from verses 2-11 below, I am going to insert "visible part", and every time the word "deuteros" appears, I will insert "invisible part."

(Heb 9:1 NKJV) Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.
(Heb 9:2 NKJV) For a tabernacle was prepared: the [visible part], in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary;
(Heb 9:3 NKJV) and behind the , the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All,
(Heb 9:4 NKJV) which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;
(Heb 9:5 NKJV) and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
(Heb 9:6 NKJV) Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the [visible part] of the tabernacle, performing the services.
(Heb 9:7 NKJV) But into the [invisible part] the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people's sins committed in ignorance;
(Heb 9:8 NKJV) the Holy Spirit [I]indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made [I]manifest (evident) while the [visible part] was still standing.
(Heb 9:9 NKJV) It (the visible part) was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--
(Heb 9:10 NKJV) concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
(Heb 9:11 NKJV) But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.

So, there are two parts to the earthly Tabernacle, which represents two parts of a single whole. The visible part, which according to verse 9 is a parable, or an illustration of this present time. The work that gets done by the priests and sacrifices in the visible part is only temporary and temporal. On the other hand, the invisibile part of the Tabernacle, what we know as the Holy of Holies is an illustration of the invisible or the world to come. This invisible part is where the eternal stuff gets done. This is where Jesus serves as High Priest in the order of Malk-Tzedek. It is where Messiah Jesus has made the once and for all atonement - in the more perfect Tabernacle.

The following passages fit in with Hebrews 9-11:

(1Ti 1:17 NKJV) Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

(Joh 1:18 NKJV) No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

(Col 1:15 NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

The physical is not in conflict with the spiritual. While the spiritual is the higher plane, both the physical and the spiritual conprice a single whole - reality. God created it to reveal Himself.

Wintermute
Dec 23rd 2009, 02:22 AM
Thanks for posting this. I like a number of the verses used here, especially in Hebrews.

Radagast
Dec 23rd 2009, 04:25 AM
The Greek word "shadow" is "skia." Skia is used in the Septuagint as the translation to the Hebrew word "tzel." It comes from the Hebrew root "tzalal." which alludes to "hovering over."

When we beging to read the three references in the NT to the Greek equivalent to "tzel" a pattern emerges. It seems our translators cannot imagine a shadow being a good thing - that the reference to a shadow is a Hebraic reference to the physicial world.

Now I thought the writer to the Hebrews was being crystal clear, but somehow you seem to have managed to change the meaning to the total opposite of what was written.

For a start, the epistle to the Hebrews was written in Greek to Jews of the Diaspora who spoke Greek. So the first way to interpret the word is to look it up in a Greek dictionary (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ds kia%2F). And the second way is to see how else the word is used in the NT:

The people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow {skia} of death a light has dawned. (Matthew 4:16 quoting Isaiah 9:2)

As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow {skia} might fall on some of them as he passed by. (Acts 5:15)

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow {skia} of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

The law is only a shadow {skia} of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. (Hebews 10:1)

In fact, the range of meanings for "skia" is quite similar to the English word "shadow." Colossians 2:17 and Hebews 10:1 are explicitly contrasting shadows with the reality that casts the shadow.

You also quoted 1Ti 1:17, Joh 1:18, and Col 1:15, but those verses do not contain the word "skia." In fact, the Greek word in Col 1:15 is used in Hebrews 10:1 as the opposite of "skia."

For those interested in word studies, "skia" is Strong's 4639 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4639).

JohnDB
Dec 23rd 2009, 11:23 AM
There is a lot about the book of Hebrews that we don't know.

But...

The septuagent was used as a backdrop for interpretation of the Hebrew Old Testament the whole time for all of the New Testament writers.

Also...Hebrews was also thought to have originally been written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek. Just like the book of Matthew.

So....where you can disagree with Goykodesh's conclusions...
You cannot for these reasons.

Radagast
Dec 23rd 2009, 11:48 AM
The septuagent was used as a backdrop for interpretation of the Hebrew Old Testament the whole time for all of the New Testament writers.

But that doesn't mean we interpret the meaning of the Greek words by partially related Hebrew ones.

To put it another way: as a Christian, the Hebrew Old Testament (translated into English) is a backdrop for your thought. That doesn't mean that when you use the word "backdrop" in a post I ask myself what Hebrew word that might equate to. No, I look up "backdrop" in an English dictionary, and I also check your other posts for uses of the word -- unless you are actually quoting the Old Testament.


Also...Hebrews was also thought to have originally been written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek. Just like the book of Matthew.

The book of Matthew was not originally written in Hebrew, although according to early church tradition it was partly based on a (now lost) Aramaic "Sayings of Our Lord" (the Gospel of Matthew that we have also borrows from Mark a little; and Luke also uses the same two sources).

There is no evidence that the book of Hebrews was originally written in Hebrew. It would have been stupid to do so: Jews in the Diaspora spoke Greek (that's why they produced the Greek Septuagint in the first place). And, actually, whoever wrote the book of Hebrews was very fluent in Greek.

goykodesh
Dec 23rd 2009, 04:35 PM
Now I thought the writer to the Hebrews was being crystal clear, but somehow you seem to have managed to change the meaning to the total opposite of what was written.

Thanks for your opinion, but I'd like some more specific details to validate your point.



For a start, the epistle to the Hebrews was written in Greek to Jews of the Diaspora who spoke Greek. So the first way to interpret the word is to look it up in a Greek dictionary (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ds kia%2F). And the second way is to see how else the word is used in the NT:

What do you base this idea on?


The people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow {skia} of death a light has dawned. (Matthew 4:16 quoting Isaiah 9:2)

As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow {skia} might fall on some of them as he passed by. (Acts 5:15)

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow {skia} of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

The law is only a shadow {skia} of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. (Hebews 10:1)

In fact, the range of meanings for "skia" is quite similar to the English word "shadow." Colossians 2:17 and Hebews 10:1 are explicitly contrasting shadows with the reality that casts the shadow.

You're not going to like this, but it's the truth. In the forth century BC, the Greek Philosopher Plato gave us the Cave Analogy in his work "Republic," Essentially the Cave Analogy is that "man in his currrent state is confined in a cave, where higher reality is casting shadows on the back wall of a cave. Man is limited to knowing reality by what is dimly projected by those shadows.

Your post said, and I quote:: "reality that casts the shadow"

Who are you agreeing with here? Your post agrees virtually word for word with Plato.

I disagree with any Biblical interpretation that lines up with Plato. As much as I disagree that the Father is opposed to the Son.

Radagast
Dec 23rd 2009, 09:22 PM
Your post said, and I quote:: "reality that casts the shadow"

Who are you agreeing with here? Your post agrees virtually word for word with Plato.

Well, realities and shadows were part of human experience long before Plato. So in Acts 5:15, the real Peter casts a shadow on people.

And no, the point I'm making is quite different from what Plato says in the story of the cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave), which is all about the theory of "forms." My post does not agree "word for word with Plato," as you can see if you read him (http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.8.vii.html). Mind you, what if it did? Even pagans can be right sometimes.

goykodesh
Dec 23rd 2009, 10:54 PM
Even pagans can be right sometimes.

Not about God, certainly not about Jesus, and definitely not about God's plan.

Radagast
Dec 23rd 2009, 11:10 PM
Not about God, certainly not about Jesus, and definitely not about God's plan.

Well, Paul does quote a pagan philosopher in Acts 17:28 (“For in him we live and move and have our being”).

JohnDB
Dec 23rd 2009, 11:22 PM
But that doesn't mean we interpret the meaning of the Greek words by partially related Hebrew ones.

To put it another way: as a Christian, the Hebrew Old Testament (translated into English) is a backdrop for your thought. That doesn't mean that when you use the word "backdrop" in a post I ask myself what Hebrew word that might equate to. No, I look up "backdrop" in an English dictionary, and I also check your other posts for uses of the word -- unless you are actually quoting the Old Testament.



The book of Matthew was not originally written in Hebrew, although according to early church tradition it was partly based on a (now lost) Aramaic "Sayings of Our Lord" (the Gospel of Matthew that we have also borrows from Mark a little; and Luke also uses the same two sources).

There is no evidence that the book of Hebrews was originally written in Hebrew. It would have been stupid to do so: Jews in the Diaspora spoke Greek (that's why they produced the Greek Septuagint in the first place). And, actually, whoever wrote the book of Hebrews was very fluent in Greek.

I don't know of one reputable scholar who promotes the views that you are promoting in this thread.

In fact I know for a fact that most vehemently disprove every point you have made here.

goykodesh
Dec 23rd 2009, 11:39 PM
Well, Paul does quote a pagan philosopher in Acts 17:28 (“For in him we live and move and have our being”).

Very good indeed! Especially the followup:

(Act 17:29) So, since we are children of God, we shouldn't suppose that God's essence resembles gold, silver or stone shaped by human technique and imagination.
(Act 17:30) "In the past, God overlooked such ignorance; but now he is commanding all people everywhere to turn to him from their sins.

goykodesh
Dec 23rd 2009, 11:52 PM
By the way Wintermute, Radagast and JohnDB - thank you so much for your time and your input and I hope to continue this next week.

You both have an awesome Christmas.

Behold our Master Jesus - King of the Universe, our Salvation, the Holy One of Israel; my Redeemer Who sits me at His feet to teach me His Ways - Glory to God, and praise His Name forever and ever.

JohnDB
Dec 24th 2009, 12:15 AM
By the way Wintermute, Radagast and JohnDB - thank you so much for your time and your input and I hope to continue this next week.

You both have an awesome Christmas.

Behold our Master Jesus - King of the Universe, our Salvation, the Holy One of Israel; my Redeemer Who sits me at His feet to teach me His Ways - Glory to God, and praise His Name forever and ever.

You have a merry Christmas too.