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tmentour
Jan 18th 2010, 02:29 AM
Can you explain these verses? 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

I question why he states's "he'll boast" when the bible says it's wrong to do so, and where are these visions coming from/why?

-SEEKING-
Jan 18th 2010, 02:36 AM
As far as the boasting read the end of chapter 11 to get a better picture of what he's talking about.

The visions came from God. As to what he saw, I guess we'll never know.

BroRog
Jan 18th 2010, 06:50 PM
There is nothing inherently wrong with boasting. Boasting is only wrong if it's a lie, or if it is done to verbally hurt someone else.

roaring tiger
Jan 18th 2010, 08:59 PM
Can you explain these verses? 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

I question why he states's "he'll boast" when the bible says it's wrong to do so, and where are these visions coming from/why?

Hi!!!tmentour,

Yes, it is connected toRev. 10: 2- 4 and Rev.5: 1-5 This what the bible says...chap.5, And I saw at the right side of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside sealed with seven seal.

2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice,Who is worthy of opening the book, and to loose the seal thereof?

3]And no man in heaven , nor in earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5]And one of the elders saith unto me, weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

comment; Christ is the root of David, the angel is the Comforter or Holy Ghost,it was stated in John 14:26 about the book we shall setlle further.

Rev.10: 2 And he has in his hand a little book open: and set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth.

3] And cried in a loud voice, as when a lion roareth; and when he had cried, seven thunder uttered their voices.

4] And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunder uttered, and write them not.

comment:the Lion is Christ, seven thunder signifies the seven seals and told the writer not to write it,reason that Paul says unspeakable words that is not lawfull a man to utter. 2 Cor. 12; 4.

Paul boasted even he says, It is not expedient for me to glory, I will come to visions and revelation to God. he spake that because his heart is full of joy.Thuse who glorify,Glorify the Lord.

The aforesaid verses is also related in book of Ezex. and Jer.

Thanks and God Bless,?RT.

markedward
Jan 18th 2010, 09:30 PM
There is nothing inherently wrong with boasting. Boasting is only wrong if it's a lie, or if it is done to verbally hurt someone else.Or to value your own worth above God's.

roaring tiger
Jan 18th 2010, 09:45 PM
As far as the boasting read the end of chapter 11 to get a better picture of what he's talking about.

The visions came from God. As to what he saw, I guess we'll never know.

Hi!!! Bro. Seeking,

With due respect to you, I hereby humble myself not to offend you but to share something with you in the name of love to God.

You said ,I guess we'll never know about the vision that came to God, maybe not all of us, and not all visions, but regarding the one in this thread,I can say, Yes we can.

Jesus told us in John !6; 23-27 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you.

24]Hitherto have you ask nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy maybe full.Please cont. up to v. 27

1 Cor.2: 9-10 But it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirits: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yes,the deep things of God.

I made this quote to you as it was written in Jas. 4: 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth do it not, to him is a sin.

1 cor. 16 14 Let all that you do be done in love.Thanks and God Bless. / RT.

Chaston
Jan 18th 2010, 10:55 PM
I find the mention of third heaven to be the key of this vs. As for the man he saw, what was he speaking? Look at the rules (laws) of this board. They are what many Christians see as unlawful to utter but yet he was in paradise. It is in line with Rev 11 and the two witnesses and what they will say.

Rev. 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Hurt in this vs. does not have to mean physically. I believe this to mean with words; trying to stop them from the work God gave them to do because Christians don't like what they have to say. Their rebuke will bring about a baptism of fire. If any mans words or deeds should cause them to stop preaching they will find themselves in the lake of fire.

Servant89
Jan 18th 2010, 11:40 PM
Boasting is wrong but there is one exception.

Boasting is wrong:
Prov 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

But there is one kind of boasting that is really good and the Lord likes a lot.
Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Shalom

David Taylor
Jan 20th 2010, 08:01 PM
Can you explain these verses? 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

I question why he states's "he'll boast" when the bible says it's wrong to do so, and where are these visions coming from/why?

I've always wondered if Paul was speaking of his familiarity with John the disciple (Acts 8:14, 13:13; Gal 2:9) who saw the visions of heaven later recorded in the book of Revelation.

Of course if that is this vision spoken of, we know that 2 Corinthians was written circa 55 A.D.; so forteen years prior 55 would venue the vision circa 41 A.D.....and beg the question regardless of when Revelation was written, did John (if he is the friend Paul is talking about), start having the visions of Revelation much earlier than when the book of Revelation was finally written?

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2010, 09:12 PM
I've always wondered if Paul was speaking of his familiarity with John the disciple (Acts 8:14, 13:13; Gal 2:9) who saw the visions of heaven later recorded in the book of Revelation.

Of course if that is this vision spoken of, we know that 2 Corinthians was written circa 55 A.D.; so forteen years prior 55 would venue the vision circa 41 A.D.....and beg the question regardless of when Revelation was written, did John (if he is the friend Paul is talking about), start having the visions of Revelation much earlier than when the book of Revelation was finally written?

This very thought came to my mind just a couple of days ago. I along with my wife looked into this very thing. We used a bunch of the study notes found in the ESV study bible to come to our conclusion as well as time lines of John's life and Paul's life. We concluded that Paul was not referring to John. I will paste the study notes to help illistrate.


Date

Irenaeus reports, on the basis of earlier sources, that “John received the Revelation almost in our own time, toward the end of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 5.30.3). Since Domitian's reign ended in a.d. 96, most scholars date Revelation in the mid-90s. Some, however, have argued for a date during Nero's reign (a.d. 54–68) and before the fall of Jerusalem in 70, basing their conclusion in part on the belief that Revelation 11:1–2 is a predictive prophecy of the Roman siege and destruction of the earthly Jerusalem during the Jewish War. However, the conditions in the churches of chapters 2–3 and their cities favor a date around a.d. 95–96, and in Revelation “the holy city” does not seem to refer to the earthly Jerusalem (see note on 11:1–2). Assuming this later date, events relating to Nero's reign and Jerusalem's destruction, both of which would now have been in the past, are woven into John's visions as portents and prototypes of present pressures and coming traumas in the world's assault on Christ's church.

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John was exiled to Patmos by Domitian who reigned from 81-96. The historical data suggest that John did all his writing during the reign of Domitian and more so he wrote the three letters and revelation while in exile on Patmos.

So if we assume that time line is correct then we have to look at Paul's life time line. Paul wrote 2 Corinthians around the year of 55/56.


Date

Paul wrote 2 Corinthians from Macedonia around a.d. 55/56, a year or so after writing 1 Corinthians and a year before he wrote his letter to the Romans from Corinth (Acts 20:2–3).

So we then looked back at Paul's life and what was going on in his life 14 years prior.

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From the chart we see that 14 years prior to writing the his second letter to the Corinthians was the time that Paul received his thorn in the flesh. Why is this an important piece of information when looking at this, because of the reason Paul received the thorn?

2 Corinthians 12:7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Paul received it so he would not become conceited because of the revelations he received. So what revelations is Paul referring to?

Galatians 1:11-12 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. (12) For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul received the gospel by revelation directly from Christ Himself. So Paul is stating his testimony in the early verses of 2 Corinthians 12 when he met Christ personally and received the revelation of the full gospel. Paul says in verse 5 on behalf of this man he will boast. Paul did only boast about Christ and Him crucified.

Galatians 6:14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

David Taylor
Jan 20th 2010, 09:39 PM
But isn't it possible that John could be the subject, and the visions of Revelation are the topic Paul eludes to, which he said happened 14 years ago (circa 41 AD)....and that still harmonize with the late-date view of Revelation being written on Patmos circa 96 AD?

Just because John wrote the visions to paper on Patmos circa 96 AD (or even circa 68 AD) doesn't mean that is when the actual event occurred with John.

What if John had the visions circa 41 A.D. but then only wrote them down into what became the book of Revelation later in his life while marooned on Patmos?

BTW, my father-in-law is presently writing a book.....some of it involves things from his childhood that occurred 50-60 years ago....but he is writing the book now, in 2010.
Perhaps the same kinda thing with John. He had a vision of heaven circa 41 A.D.; at sometime thereafter mentioned it to his buddy Paul as they were sitting around the
campfire, and then much later in life, John recorded it to paper in Patmos?

Maybe it's plausible, maybe it's not...but it sure is an interesting consideration.

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2010, 11:15 PM
The part that I have a hard time excepting in that John would have waited to write down what he was directly commanded to write and send out to the churches. Could a true believer refuse to follow a direct command from Jesus for anywhere from 27 to 54 years knowing that the rulers in Rome want to eliminate the entire church. I really think John wrote down the vision as soon as he received it. John also refers to being on the island of Patmos in Revelation 1:9. History proves that John was not exiled on Patmos anywhere close to the 41 era.