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Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 02:56 PM
Rev 2:Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

So what does the part of scripture that is underlined/bold mean? Please include other supporting scripture that is relevant to the meaning.

Thanks everyone! :cool:

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:15 PM
I refer to JOHN 15

and specifically Verse 14

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


I believe Jesus is saying...if you really love me....repent and truly follow me like you did in the beginning, or you will not come with me when I return to bring you home.



I really don't have any other explanation for that verse. It seems quite explicit and simple to me.


In Christ's Love

Chaston
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:21 PM
I refer to JOHN 15

and specifically Verse 14

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


I believe Jesus is saying...if you really love me....repent and truly follow me like you did in the beginning, or you will not come with me when I return to bring you home.



I really don't have any other explanation for that verse. It seems quite explicit and simple to me.


In Christ's Love

No disrespect intended. I believe your on the right track, just maybe "repent and truly follow my Father..."

Love Fountain
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:25 PM
Rev 2:Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

So what does the part of scripture that is underlined/bold mean? Please include other supporting scripture that is relevant to the meaning.

Thanks everyone! :cool:


Matt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

In my opinion, they have left their first love, who is the Father and must repent and return to their first works which is glorification of their Father per Jesus instruction in Matt 5:14-16.

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:26 PM
No disrespect intended. I believe your on the right track, just maybe "repent and truly follow my Father..."So then, after being repentant what do you mean as "truly" following?

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:27 PM
Matt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

In my opinion, they have left their first love, who is the Father and must repent and return to their first works which is glorification of their Father per Jesus instruction in Matt 5:14-16.

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love FountainIf they don't, then what happens to them?

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:28 PM
No disrespect intended. I believe your on the right track, just maybe "repent and truly follow my Father..."

None taken and you're right, through me - follow My Father.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:32 PM
If they don't, then what happens to them?

Hey, are you trying to prove some agenda that might be scripturally sound?:rolleyes:

There are gonna be worms crawling all over the place in here.:D

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:33 PM
I refer to JOHN 15

and specifically Verse 14

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


I believe Jesus is saying...if you really love me....repent and truly follow me like you did in the beginning, or you will not come with me when I return to bring you home.



I really don't have any other explanation for that verse. It seems quite explicit and simple to me.


In Christ's LoveThe part I underlined... since this statement can have various meanings based on ones theology of the rapture (when)... do you mean "ultimately" such Christians will not be brought to heaven due to not repenting and returning to doing their first works?

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:36 PM
The part I underlined... since this statement can have various meanings based on ones theology of the rapture (when)... do you mean "ultimately" such Christians will not be brought to heaven due to not repenting and returning to doing their first works?

I mean ultimately. If they do not return to their first love....then they never truly loved to begin with.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:39 PM
Hey, are you trying to prove some agenda that might be scripturally sound?:rolleyes:

There are gonna be worms crawling all over the place in here.:D
Of course... but don't we all want to receive understanding so if our thought's are wrong, we can see the meaning God intends and not the meaning we want scripture to mean? Believe me, I've been wrong so many times and then a person says something and the light goes on and all the enemy had piled up is washed away and I saw God's truth, not what was taught, not what was indoctrinated in me through religion or a denomination, etc.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:45 PM
I mean ultimately. If they do not return to their first love....then they never truly loved to begin with.Then why are they being told what they were told, if they never truly loved to begin with? To be corrected by God means you once had done it correct and then stopped.

I just never understood the "they never really..." line of thought. If they never really, then God would never need to give the warning but He does because they obviously "did" once.

Chaston
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:46 PM
So then, after being repentant what do you mean as "truly" following?

The Father is the one and only God and his word came in the form of his Son Jesus.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:49 PM
Of course... but don't we all want to receive understanding so if our thought's are wrong, we can see the meaning God intends and not the meaning we want scripture to mean? Believe me, I've been wrong so many times and then a person says something and the light goes on and all the enemy had piled up is washed away and I saw God's truth, not what was taught, not what was indoctrinated in me through religion or a denomination, etc.

I know, I was just playing.

You are so right.... when you hear/read something and a little part of you thinks ummm...what if "THAT" is truth....but you feel a little torn and uneasy inside and ask God for understanding and then you can literally feel the Holy Spirit telling you....NO! that's not Truth. It feels absolutely magnificent!!

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 03:57 PM
Rev 2:Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

So what does the part of scripture that is underlined/bold mean? Please include other supporting scripture that is relevant to the meaning.

Thanks everyone! :cool:

Some parrallel verses...

1 Sam 4:21
21 And she called the boy Ichabod, saying, "The glory has departed from Israel," because the ark of God was taken and because of her father-in-law and her husband.
NASB

and

Luke 13:33-35
34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! 35 "Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"
NASB

When a church gets so off base, that the Lord pulls his presence back, and writes Ichabod over her door, then she is left to herself desolate as her Lamp has been removed. IMO, this is talking about a church congregation not so much an individual believer.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 04:05 PM
Some parrallel verses...

1 Sam 4:21
21 And she called the boy Ichabod, saying, "The glory has departed from Israel," because the ark of God was taken and because of her father-in-law and her husband.
NASB

and

Luke 13:33-35
34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! 35 "Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"
NASB

When a church gets so off base, that the Lord pulls his presence back, and writes Ichabod over her door, then she is left to herself desolate as her Lamp has been removed. IMO, this is talking about a church congregation not so much an individual believer.Interesting... 1st question to pop in my head as I read your last statement... do you feel this includes a church or a congregation who places more importance to their doctrine and rituals and all in their church body is led by the "rules" compared to allowing the Holy Spirit lead them?

Chaston
Jan 22nd 2010, 04:23 PM
Interesting... 1st question to pop in my head as I read your last statement... do you feel this includes a church or a congregation who places more importance to their doctrine and rituals and all in their church body is led by the "rules" compared to allowing the Holy Spirit lead them?

Maybe it's to the entire congregation within the body of Christ (the Church). I believe that vs. to apply to each of us in the way you put it Slug (well said), not just one Church in the many different branches we have now. Jesus did not want us to be like this, he wants us and the Jews to be one with him in the name of his Father.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 04:30 PM
Then why are they being told what they were told, if they never truly loved to begin with? To be corrected by God means you once had done it correct and then stopped.

I just never understood the "they never really..." line of thought. If they never really, then God would never need to give the warning but He does because they obviously "did" once.


Yeah you're right. I quess I wasn't considering the fact that Jesus was warning them that they had done it correctly the first time. So with that said, I'll move to my next belief.

I'm probably the one who's going to open the can I referred to, but so be it.

If individually these people or types of people(which does include individuals/US today), if they/we don't stop making excuses for our sins and continue to justify us living our lives the way we do...how could we possibly believe that God, who being a JUST God, could justifiably reward us with eternal life.

We are undeniably REJECTING WHO CHRIST IS AND WHAT HE STANDS FOR(The very nature of God) if we try and justify are SINFUL lifestyle. Yes we will continue to sin, but if we trip and fall and call on Him who is faithful, He will forgive us and thus we will endure and grow into Christ likeness. If we understand that what we do is wrong and we are sinning against God, and then humbly ask God to change us and He knows we genuinely are wanting to conform to His ways because we love Him, then He will be faithful and do just that. If we say "God understands that I'm a human being and he'll forgive me because I believe He loves me and He knows it's hard and that I'm trying" we fail to truly experience what God wants for us. Because are we really trusting Him, or are we trying to do it all by ourselves?(works, etc)

But, this is an issue that is between the individual and God Almighty. So I, or we, can't necessarily target which Christians are genuine in their faith and those who are not. BUT, I STRESS BUT. There are some cases where we definitely can, but ultimately that's God's knowing. And we pray for God to lift the veil from their eyes so that we might approach this person-in person, in a loving way to express our concern or better yet God's concern for them.

In Christ's Love

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 04:58 PM
Interesting... 1st question to pop in my head as I read your last statement... do you feel this includes a church or a congregation who places more importance to their doctrine and rituals and all in their church body is led by the "rules" compared to allowing the Holy Spirit lead them?

I don't think it was about rules Bro. I think it was about disstraction from the main thing. These folks did fight for doctrine and they persevered in good works. They endured nor did they grow weary. The key... they left their first love.

Who was Israel's first love? They left him and their house was left desolate. When the ark was taken, Ichabod was written over the door. But why was the ark taken? They had left their first love.

When a church begins to focus on something to the point of leaving the reason for all they are doing, i.e. Jesus, then they are in danger of leaving their first love. God will put up with a lot and he is patient. He desires to be loved above all. That is why the greatest command is not "Thou shalt glorify the Lord" but rather "Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength".

Something about my answer feels incomplete. Maybe I'll come back later and change it or add another post.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:13 PM
I don't think it was about rules Bro. I think it was about disstraction from the main thing. These folks did fight for doctrine and they persevered in good works. They endured nor did they grow weary. The key... they left their first love.

Who was Israel's first love? They left him and their house was left desolate. When the ark was taken, Ichabod was written over the door. But why was the ark taken? They had left their first love.

When a church begins to focus on something to the point of leaving the reason for all they are doing, i.e. Jesus, then they are in danger of leaving their first love. God will put up with a lot and he is patient. He desires to be loved above all. That is why the greatest command is not "Thou shalt glorify the Lord" but rather "Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength".

Something about my answer feels incomplete. Maybe I'll come back later and change it or add another post.Maybe I should wait before asking this since you may have more to say... but :lol:

So they are now warned and they don't repent... the lampstand is "then" removed. What's the result of a lampstand removed?

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:22 PM
Seems to me it closely parallels to this bit of scripture...


Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:26 PM
Seems to me it closely parallels to this bit of scripture...


Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.Cool... OK, if you were to explain the parallelism? :P

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:28 PM
Apostasy is a terrible thing...

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:30 PM
Maybe I should wait before asking this since you may have more to say... but :lol:

So they are now warned and they don't repent... the lampstand is "then" removed. What's the result of a lampstand removed?

They are no longer a church. The anointing power of God in their work as a congregation is removed. Why? Because if they are not showing, receiving, and dwelling in the love of Christ, then they are no longer a light to be shown to the world.

IMO, it fits with 1 Cor 13. If we have knowledge, works, gifts, but have not love, then we are nothing. I think that is what was missing from my post earlier.

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:35 PM
Christian - Christ = ian

I
Am
Nothing

The end result is stated in Matthew 25:12... "I know you not."

What a dreadful thing.

markedward
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:35 PM
I wrote up a blog post (http://bibleforums.org/entry.php?1988-Do-the-seven-churches-of-the-Revelation-represent-seven-eras-of-history) showing how Jesus' letters to the seven churches draw their imagery from Scriptural history. The first letter draws its history from the creation and fall of man:


Christ identifies himself as the one who "hold the seven stars", that is, he has power over the stars of heaven. As we know, God created the stars of heaven. [Genesis 1.14-15] (God created all things through Jesus; hence, Jesus himself is the Creator. See: John 1.1-3; Colossians 1.15-17; Hebrews 1.2.) Jesus "walks among the seven golden lampstands" (which are the seven churches), showing that Jesus himself is present within the churches, exactly the same as when God walked in the garden of Eden, present within Adam and Eve's company. [Genesis 3.8]

However, the church "abandoned the love [it] had at first", just as Adam and Eve turned away from their love of God. [Genesis 3] Because of this, Christ threatens to remove the church's lampstand, just as God removed Adam and Eve from the garden. [Genesis 3.24] Christ, however, gives this promise. "The one who conquers" will be granted the right "to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God"; this is the exact opposite of Adam and Eve, who were not allowed to eat of the tree of life in the garden of Eden, because they abandoned their love of God. [Genesis 3.22-24]

The seven "lampstands" are explained in chapter 4 of the Revelation as representing the "seven spirits of God", that is, the Holy Spirit as it permeates the whole of the Church. When Adam and Eve apostatized from God, God exiled them from the garden of Eden, and removed his immediate presence from their company (God walked with Adam and Eve, and he stopped doing so).

Since the church of Ephesus is bordering on turning away from Christ, Christ threatens to remove their "lampstand", that is, he is threatening to withdraw the immediate presence of the Holy Spirit from them.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:39 PM
Apostasy is a terrible thing...

Apostasy cannot begin if a Christian is not first... in Christ, correct?


They are no longer a church. The anointing power of God in their work as a congregation is removed. Why? Because if they are not showing, receiving, and dwelling in the love of Christ, then they are no longer a light to be shown to the world.

IMO, it fits with 1 Cor 13. If we have knowledge, works, gifts, but have not love, then we are nothing. I think that is what was missing from my post earlier.As I asked UM... for all this to happen, they once HAD an anointening, otherwise there is nothing to really remove, correct?

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:41 PM
Since the church of Ephesus is bordering on turning away from Christ, Christ threatens to remove their "lampstand", that is, he is threatening to withdraw the immediate presence of the Holy Spirit from them.So what happens if they don't heed the warning and don't repent so they can get it back?

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:44 PM
So what happens if they don't heed the warning and don't repent so they can get it back?

Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:49 PM
Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.But they do, otherwise they'd have never received the warning to repent. No reason for such a "threat" from Jesus if they aren't in Him and thus have His Spirit in them.

Anyway, why such warnings if in the end those in Christ make it despite not heeding all these warnings?

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:53 PM
Slug... Keep up dude. :D

You asked what happens if they DON"T repent and lose the Holy Spirit.

I answered you with "he is none of His"



In a nutshell, they currently DO have the Spirit, but if they don't straighten up and get back to their first love, they will no longer, and then they are in trouble.

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:07 PM
Apostasy cannot begin if a Christian is not first... in Christ, correct?

As I asked UM... for all this to happen, they once HAD an anointening, otherwise there is nothing to really remove, correct?

Yes. But I don't think this is about apostasy. These folks had persevered and not grown weary.

Rev 2:2-3
2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot endure evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
NASB

They didn't grow weary in doing good. This church had some good things about it. Look here too where Jesus commended them.

Rev 2:6
6 'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
NASB

So Jesus commended them several times. But they had left their first love. That was a big deal to Jesus. As a result of this, he would no longer recognize them as a church and remove their lampstand. It's not about falling away as a believer, but rather, a group of people getting so caught up in "group think" that they lose sight of Jesus. They endure. They perservered. They did not grow weary. They tested and revealed false prophets. They hated evil deeds. These things Jesus commended them for. People who perservere don't fall away. But sometimes, we do lose our first love and it needs to be rekindled. As the church loses it's "anointing" perhaps then we begin to search for reasons why and then, we can rejoice as David did when the ark of the covenant, which represented the presence of the Lord is restored.

So, IMO, this is not about apostacy as much as it's about a congregation of believers who left their first love and was in danger of losing much as a result.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:28 PM
Yes. But I don't think this is about apostasy. These folks had persevered and not grown weary.

Rev 2:2-3
2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot endure evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
NASB

They didn't grow weary in doing good. This church had some good things about it. Look here too where Jesus commended them.

Rev 2:6
6 'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
NASB

So Jesus commended them several times. But they had left their first love. That was a big deal to Jesus. As a result of this, he would no longer recognize them as a church and remove their lampstand. It's not about falling away as a believer, but rather, a group of people getting so caught up in "group think" that they lose sight of Jesus. They endure. They perservered. They did not grow weary. They tested and revealed false prophets. They hated evil deeds. These things Jesus commended them for. People who perservere don't fall away. But sometimes, we do lose our first love and it needs to be rekindled. As the church loses it's "anointing" perhaps then we begin to search for reasons why and then, we can rejoice as David did when the ark of the covenant, which represented the presence of the Lord is restored.

So, IMO, this is not about apostacy as much as it's about a congregation of believers who left their first love and was in danger of losing much as a result.

So I see how you could apply that, but......

Could it maybe relate to those today who spend the bulk of their ministry on calling out heresies and false doctrines, and in that they lose focus on "The Gospel" and don't minister more to the "LOST" rather than the decieved?

And if it doesn't mean what I suggest......

What could removing their lampstand mean? That's the question. Because Jesus goes on to say in verse 6-76 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God

It seems like He's saying if you don't repent and overcome this issue....you will not eat of the tree of life.

In Christ's Love

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:33 PM
So I see how you could apply that, but......

Could it maybe relate to those today who spend the bulk of their ministry on calling out heresies and false doctrines, and in that they lose focus on "The Gospel" and don't minister more to the "LOST" rather than the decieved?

And if it doesn't mean what I suggest......

What could removing their lampstand mean? That's the question. Because Jesus goes on to say in verse 6-76 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is i the midst of the paradise of God

It seems like He's saying if you don't repent and overcome this issue....you will not eat of the tree of life.

In Christ's Love

Rev 1:20
20 "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
NASB

It just means they'll cease to be a church. The lampstands are churches. If God removes the lampstand, he removes the church. Churches die all the time but it doesn't mean the members were lost, or apostate. For some, it means their lampstand was removed and God removed his blessings on them as a group of people because they left their first love, as a church.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:33 PM
So I see how you could apply that, but......

Could it maybe relate to those today who spend the bulk of their ministry on calling out heresies and false doctrines, and in that they lose focus on "The Gospel" and don't minister more to the "LOST" rather than the decieved?

And if it doesn't mean what I suggest......

What could removing their lampstand mean? That's the question. Because Jesus goes on to say in verse 6-76 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is i the midst of the paradise of God

It seems like He's saying if you don't repent and overcome this issue....you will not eat of the tree of life.

In Christ's LoveYa beat me to it... hahaha.

Yes, there is a consequence in loosing the lampstand by not repenting, thus not overcoming despite all the "good" they did before the warning.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:36 PM
Rev 1:20
20 "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
NASB

It just means they'll cease to be a church. The lampstands are churches. If God removes the lampstand, he removes the church. Churches die all the time but it doesn't mean the members were lost, or apostate. For some, it means their lampstand was removed and God removed his blessings on them as a group of people because they left their first love, as a church.The verses 6-7 brought out states "he and him", not they and them who.

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:49 PM
The verses 6-7 brought out states "he and him", not they and them who.

We often refer to the church with personal pronouns. When speaking to the whole church he used the word "you" several times. That's singular too because he is referring to one church group, the church at Ephesus, not the individual believer at Ephesus. I think context is key. This is about churches as a body not about an individual believer. There are other apostate scriptures we can use. Here, it's just about having the glory of the Lord depart from a group as he did when the ark was removed.

The only threat here was the removal of the lampstand. There was no other threat. The earlier verse shows the lampstand is the church. The threat is that God will remove the church. Since these folks perservered, they will still eat from the tree of life even if they lose their church. You ever seen a group of believers that lost their church because the church got off on something that was a distraction? They were still good people. Still saved. Still perservered. But something was missing! That's what this passage is about.

Jesus rebuked the self righteous pharisees for their works. Here, he praised these folk's works. These people didn't fall into sin. They just forgot the purpose of the church is not to do works but rather to minister to God through the Holy Spirit and by loving Jesus. It was a serious thing and they could have lost their lampstand and no longer been a light to the world as a local body of Christ.

Having said all that, I think we can use the passages as examples for the individual. But even so, it is the difference between becoming disqualified as opposed to being cutoff, IMO.

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:51 PM
Ummmm... Bro Mark... What is "the church"???

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:53 PM
Ummmm... Bro Mark... What is "the church"???

I know Bro. But again, this is about a local group more so than the body. That's the point. When Jesus started the whole passage he said "Churches" indicating local assemblies not the whole church body nor just an individual.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 06:57 PM
I know Bro. But again, this is about a local group more so than the body. That's the point. When Jesus started the whole passage he said "Churches" indicating local assemblies not the whole church body nor just an individual.Mark, people come and go in a church. So if a church has a lampstand removed and when that happened, all the members have rotated out... is the lampstand still removed with a fresh congregation? Or was it for those specific "he's and him's" at the time the warning was given?

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:01 PM
We often refer to the church with personal pronouns. When speaking to the whole church he used the word "you" several times. That's singular too. I think context is key. This is about churches as a body not about an individual believer. There are other apostate scriptures we can use. Here, it's just about having the glory of the Lord depart from a group as he did when the ark was removed.

The only threat here was the removal of the lampstand. There was no other threat. The earlier verse shows the lampstand is the church. The threat is that God will remove the church. Since these folks perservered, they will still eat from the tree of life even if they lose their church. You ever seen a group of believers that lost their church because the church got off on something that was a distraction? They were still good people. Still saved. Still perservered. But something was missing! That's what this passage is about.

Jesus rebuked the self righteous pharisees for their works. Here, he praised these folk's works. These people didn't fall into sin. They just forgot the purpose of the church is not to do works but rather to minister to God through the Holy Spirit and by loving Jesus. It was a serious thing and they could have lost their lampstand and no longer been a light to the world as a local body of Christ.

So what do you think 'overcometh' means? To him(church) that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life? Overcome what? Repent and turn your focus back on me- JESUS...your first love. How does verse 7 not contain a threat of loss?

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:04 PM
Mark, people come and go in a church. So if a church has a lampstand removed and when that happened, all the members have rotated out... is the lampstand still removed with a fresh congregation? Or was it for those specific "he's and him's" at the time the warning was given?

If a church has had the blessings of God removed from it, what kind of people do you think would be attracted to it? Can the candlestick come back? Sure, churches get started all the time. When people humble themselves, pray and seek after God, he heals our hearts. We're still his people. But till the reason he "disqualified" the church so to speak is corrected, it remains disqualified does it not? If the new people coming in fix the problem, then would God not light the fire again?

John146
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:04 PM
The verses 6-7 brought out states "he and him", not they and them who.Verse 6 is speaking of the church of Ephesus in general. The church of Ephesus as a whole was in agreement in their hate of the deeds of the Nicolaitans. Just as the church of Ephesus as a whole was commended for their works, their labor and their patience. And just as the church as a whole was commended for not tolerating "them which are evil" and for exposing "them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars".

The same Greek word for lampstand that is used in Rev 2:5, lychnia, is also used in Rev 1:12,13,20 and 2:1. In those verses, the word is a symbolic reference to a church. So, I woud think that would be the case in Rev 2:5 as well.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

So, I agree with Brother Mark's understanding of Rev 2:5.

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:06 PM
I know Bro. But again, this is about a local group more so than the body. That's the point. When Jesus started the whole passage he said "Churches" indicating local assemblies not the whole church body nor just an individual.

If that particular gathering of believers ceases to be the church, biblically, what does that mean???

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:11 PM
So what do you think 'overcometh' means? To him(church) that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life? Overcome what? Repent and turn your focus back on me- JESUS...your first love. How does verse 7 not contain a threat of loss?

I have no problem with the church needing to repent. Jesus had already named numerous things they had overcome.

1. They overcame false doctrine.
2. They overcame weariness.
3. They overcame false prophets.
4. They overcame the temptation to quit. (i.e. they perservered)

Jesus didn't even call their deeds dead works which means Jesus himself originated those deeds in these people. He commended them for many things they overcame. But he did have this one thing against them, they had left their first love.

Then he commended them again.

Yet, this you have... like me, you hate evil deeds.

He was going to remove their lampstand because they were no longer carrying out the responsibility of Light. What is that?

Isa 58:6-10
6 "Is this not the fast which I choose,
To loosen the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the bands of the yoke,
And to let the oppressed go free,
And break every yoke?
7 "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry,
And bring the homeless poor into the house;
When you see the naked, to cover him;
And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
8 "Then your light will break out like the dawn,
And your recovery will speedily spring forth;
And your righteousness will go before you;
The glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9 "Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
You will cry, and He will say, 'Here I am.'
If you remove the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10 And if you give yourself to the hungry,
And satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
Then your light will rise in darkness,
And your gloom will become like midday.
NASB

IMO, it's more about being disqualified as a light than it is about losing our salvation. We still get to eat of the Tree of Life. That's why he spent so much time telling them what he had liked about them.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:12 PM
So verse 7 is just generalizing Overcoming things. And so that would mean Jesus is ending each of the 7 letters with different metaphors concerning what they will receive if they overcome "this life'?

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:13 PM
If that particular gathering of believers ceases to be the church, biblically, what does that mean???

It means they better go find another church and learn from them. ;)

Let me ask you this. Is it possible for a man to be disqualified from ministry for a time yet still be a Christian? IMO, that's what this passage is about. When our motive of service changes from serving Jesus to anything else, we have become disqualified to be a church. Doesn't mean we are not saved. Just means our service now fits with 1 Cor. 13 and amounts to little.

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:15 PM
It means they better go find another church and learn from them. ;)

Let me ask you this. Is it possible for a man to be disqualified from ministry for a time yet still be a Christian? IMO, that's what this passage is about. When our motive of service changes from serving Jesus to anything else, we have become disqualified to be a church. Doesn't mean we are not saved. Just means our service now fits with 1 Cor. 13 and amounts to little.

What did not having a functioning lamp mean in Matthew 25??? How do you get to where you are at from there!?!?!?

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:16 PM
I think there are better passages that talk about apostasy than Revelations 2 and 3. I think we should preach Rev 2 and 3 as to how it applies to churches. Can we apply it to an individual believer? Sure. I just think we should be careful about doing so doctrinally. IMO, Heb 6 deals far better with apostasy among others.

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:20 PM
You didn't answer the question...

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:20 PM
What did not having a functioning lamp mean in Matthew 25??? How do you get to where you are at from there!?!?!?

I got there from here by taking what Jesus said the lampstands represented in Rev. 1.

Rev 1:20
20 "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
NASB

I can show you in Daniel where bronze represents a kingdom. In Jeremiah, it represents rebellion. In other passages it is seen as good. In some passages it's seen as bad.

Jesus told us what the lampstands were. That's what I take them to be. They are churches. The church will cease to be a church. It will have "ichabod" written over it. Does that mean some will be apostate? Certainly! Does it mean that all members will be? Not.

When the ark was taken from Israel and Ichabod was born, were they still children of God? Yes! But the presence of the Lord had been removed. When their house was left to them desolate, they were apostate. When a minister has been disqualified from ministry, it doesn't make him an apostate by default.

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:22 PM
You didn't answer the question...

Jumping to conclusions are we! I posted that response as an overall response to the thread before I ever had a chance to read your question. The response to your questoin is above. ;-)

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:24 PM
I think there are better passages that talk about apostasy than Revelations 2 and 3. I think we should preach Rev 2 and 3 as to how it applies to churches. Can we apply it to an individual believer? Sure. I just think we should be careful about doing so doctrinally. IMO, Heb 6 deals far better with apostasy among others.But then you get that line.... Hebrews is for the Jews, not us

:lol:

:B

I honestly don't know if I'm to laugh or butt my head when I hear that line :P

Firefighter
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:24 PM
I posted that response as an overall response to the thread

I was wondering...

That didn't have ANYTHING to do with my post!!!

:lol:

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:26 PM
But then you get that line.... Hebrews is for the Jews, not us

:lol:

:B

I honestly don't know if I'm to laugh or butt my head when I hear that line :P

Yea, never understood that line of reasoning myself.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:29 PM
I am just trying to understand what you mean thoroughly.

So he had letters sent to the 7 Churches which would include churches today.....and all He basically was saying was There are things about you I like and there are things or a specific thing that I don't like and you need to repent or else I will not use you anymore. You can just go about your life. You are still saved, but I can't use you anymore.

What is the point of sending the letters if it was just a warning that had no REAL CONSEQUENCE? What I mean by that is.....I think most Christians would agree that missing eternal life is a dire consequence. Yes, being told that Jesus can't use you anymore would make you feel 'useless' but if at the end of the day you are still saved and going to heaven, most would probably say "well, at least I'm still saved"


In Christ's Love

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:30 PM
Yea, never understood that line of reasoning myself.I've actually heard it concerning these churches in Rev. It's for that church, not us today...

:lol:

:B

WHAT? :o

So confusing how someone can say that because someone's theology that they follow said that. Can't people seek God for themselves instead of leaping on someone else's opinion and indoctrinating for themselves?

Chaston
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:38 PM
There will be a "falling away first" which means a divison in the body of Christ (Apostasy). If the body splits in two then one side will be right and the other side will be wrong. Now both being believers in Christ only the right one will make it. This warning is for the one that is to full of pride to admitt they are wrong, and have no problem telling others they are false which caused the falling away in the first place. The warning to the first church is about loving your pride over loving God (left your first love).

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:41 PM
There will be a "falling away first" which means a divison in the body of Christ (Apostasy). If the body splits in two then one side will be right and the other side will be wrong. Now both being believers in Christ only the right one will make it. This warning is for the one that is to full of pride to admitt they are wrong, and have no problem telling others they are false which caused the falling away in the first place. The warning to the first church is about loving your pride over loving God (left your first love).

Good

.

Slug1
Jan 22nd 2010, 07:44 PM
There will be a "falling away first" which means a divison in the body of Christ (Apostasy). If the body splits in two then one side will be right and the other side will be wrong. Now both being believers in Christ only the right one will make it. This warning is for the one that is to full of pride to admitt they are wrong, and have no problem telling others they are false which caused the falling away in the first place. The warning to the first church is about loving your pride over loving God (left your first love).OK... so what do either side have to fear, specially the prideful (wrong) side if in the end, they get into heaven no matter what?

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 08:15 PM
I've actually heard it concerning these churches in Rev. It's for that church, not us today...

:lol:

:B

WHAT? :o

So confusing how someone can say that because someone's theology that they follow said that. Can't people seek God for themselves instead of leaping on someone else's opinion and indoctrinating for themselves?

LOL! I don't get that line either. Of course the churches in Rev are about today. But people use various reasons all the time to discard portions of scripture.

Brother Mark
Jan 22nd 2010, 08:19 PM
What is the point of sending the letters if it was just a warning that had no REAL CONSEQUENCE?

Being disqualified for ministry is a big deal and a real consequence IMO.


What I mean by that is.....I think most Christians would agree that missing eternal life is a dire consequence. Yes, being told that Jesus can't use you anymore would make you feel 'useless' but if at the end of the day you are still saved and going to heaven, most would probably say "well, at least I'm still saved"I think there are far more dire warnings in scripture than what we see with the church at Ephesus. For someone to be disqualified is no small matter. When a group loses it's purpose, it is a big blow. The threat of apostasy is not the only "belt" (as in used for warning and whippings) in God's tool box.

Chaston
Jan 22nd 2010, 08:25 PM
OK... so what do either side have to fear, specially the prideful (wrong) side if in the end, they get into heaven no matter what?

They don't if they don't repent, he will remove the lampstand that lights the way.

blessedmommyuv3
Jan 22nd 2010, 08:28 PM
I agree with Brother Mark. This is written to the church at Ephesus, not to individual believers.
And, if you note, they were doing many thing right. They were commended for their perseverance in hardship and their unwillingness to tolerate apostasy.
But they were lacking in fervent love for Christ and their fellow man; they had grown cold.
I believe, that the threat is removal of God's presence from that church.

In Christ,
Jen

Chaston
Jan 22nd 2010, 09:23 PM
I agree with Brother Mark. This is written to the church at Ephesus, not to individual believers.
And, if you note, they were doing many thing right. They were commended for their perseverance in hardship and their unwillingness to tolerate apostasy.
But they were lacking in fervent love for Christ and their fellow man; they had grown cold.
I believe, that the threat is removal of God's presence from that church.

In Christ,
Jen

How will the church know this passage refers to them? I have to agree with Clay, as bad as that is. It's not a real punishment for breaking Jesus first of the two most important commandments. Love God with all your heart as opposed to you left your first love. If you leave your first love, you have put your love somewhere else and placed God second.

Please note when I say "you" I'm referring to who ever this warning is for and not anyone in this thread.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 09:31 PM
I don't mean to jump off topic here, but I think it is relevant.

Revelation Chapter 2

To Ephesus

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

To Smyrna

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

To Pergamum

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

To Thyatira

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

To Sardis

Revelation Chapter 3

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

To Philadelphia

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

To Laodicea

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

All these letters end with rewards for those who have an ear and listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. Notice it says to the Churches(plural) of these specific churches.

So here you have a city/country with all these churches and this letter is being read to them. What is being suggested by some here who have commented is that the letter is saying....Hello (#!, #2, #3, #4, etc...or even to the churches in modern time who fit this description of one of these 7 churches)

You have done some good things and some have done bad. Repent. If you don't, so be it, but I really wish you would. But if don't do as I command you will still receive what I say you will get here at the end of the letter.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________-

Each one says a reward will be given to those that overcome.

It may be that these letters are written to the Church, but the rewards are certainly not for everyone and those who refuse to repent will suffer loss....the loss of these rewards...which our eternal rewards. To suggest that they only lose things in this life is going against what Jesus is explicitly telling them. Salvation is a personal relationship.....so I guess I don't understand how this can just be Jesus telling them as a church...as a whole. It seems more clear to me that He's talking to a church but while doing that He is telling each individual YOU must repent or YOU WILL NOT have these eternal things I speak of because of your lack of repentance.

In Christ's Love

ClayInHisHands
Jan 22nd 2010, 09:34 PM
Being disqualified for ministry is a big deal and a real consequence IMO.

I think there are far more dire warnings in scripture than what we see with the church at Ephesus. For someone to be disqualified is no small matter. When a group loses it's purpose, it is a big blow. The threat of apostasy is not the only "belt" (as in used for warning and whippings) in God's tool box.

I do believe this is a real consequence.

But what's a worse consequence is losing Eternal Life....right? Isn't that why Jesus is telling John to write these letters....to warn them to repent because He is coming soon and they had better be ready?

Chaston
Jan 22nd 2010, 09:41 PM
I don't mean to jump off topic here, but I think it is relevant.

Revelation Chapter 2

To Ephesus

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

To Smyrna

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

To Pergamum

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

To Thyatira

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

To Sardis

Revelation Chapter 3

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

To Philadelphia

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

To Laodicea

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

All these letters end with rewards for those who have an ear and listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. Notice it says to the Churches(plural) of these specific churches.

So here you have a city/country with all these churches and this letter is being read to them. What is being suggested by some here who have commented is that the letter is saying....Hello (#!, #2, #3, #4, etc...or even to the churches in modern time who fit this description of one of these 7 churches)

You have done some good things and some have done bad. Repent. If you don't, so be it, but I really wish you would. And to prove it you will still receive what I say you will get here at the end of the letter.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________-

Each one says a reward will be given to those that overcome.

It may be that these letters are written to the Church, but the rewards are certainly not for everyone and those who refuse to repent will suffer loss....the loss of these rewards...which our eternal rewards. To suggest that they only lose things in this life is going against what Jesus is explicitly telling them. Salvation is a personal relationship.....so I guess I don't understand how this can just be Jesus telling them as a church...as a whole. It seems more clear to me that He's talking to a church but while doing that He is telling each individual YOU must repent or YOU WILL NOT have these eternal things I speak of because of your lack of repentance.

In Christ's Love

To add each Church has their own spirit, the seven stars in his right hand.

Walstib
Jan 22nd 2010, 10:12 PM
Add another agreement for what Mark is saying from me.

A place can get so wrapped up in exhibiting the gifts that they miss some of the purpose of a congregation. The love for other Christians not exhibiting gifts can get lost for example.

Switch the words around for whatever narrow focus a group can take together.


As for the Spirit leaving the Church I don't get that part. If he dwells within believers as long as there is one believer there he is there in His fullness. The blessings of and use of the congregation may change but any change in "amount" of the Holy Spirit is an false trail when speaking corporately I think. All or nothing with a person.

Beckrl
Jan 22nd 2010, 11:08 PM
If the lampstand was removed from the churches what would happen to those in the dark?

The golden lampstand was the only source of light in the holy place. Its primary purpose was to give light in front of it. It was to shine on the table of shewbread and never to be put out. It was never to stop shining. This was a constant reminder that God was with His people. The Bible says that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. When the apostle John said, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it," he was referring to Jesus coming into the world. Jesus made the world and created life and came to bring Gods life to fallen man but since man is in darkness apart from Jesus they could not comprehend the light that comes with the life of God. The golden lampstand illuminated the shewbread and so God illuminates His people. The Spirit of God illuminates the dark mind of man to the knowledge of God and to spiritual life. John went on to say, "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. The golden lampstand speaks of Jesus as the light of the world.

Butch5
Jan 23rd 2010, 12:30 AM
Rev 2:Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

So what does the part of scripture that is underlined/bold mean? Please include other supporting scripture that is relevant to the meaning.

Thanks everyone! :cool:

It appears to be saying that if they don't return to their first works that Christ is going to remove them as a church.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 23rd 2010, 01:01 AM
I have to agree with Clay, as bad as that is.


Hey, what's that suppose to mean? :hmm:



It appears to be saying that if they don't return to their first works that Christ is going to remove them as a church.

So what happens to the people inside the church who don't repent?

What's the consequences of the church being removed then? Does it say it in the text?

Slug1
Jan 23rd 2010, 02:20 AM
It appears to be saying that if they don't return to their first works that Christ is going to remove them as a church.So to you, what does that mean in the end for them? If they don't repent...

Chaston
Jan 23rd 2010, 02:57 AM
Hey, what's that suppose to mean? :hmm:

:rofl: Sorry I'm not a very good writer. I ment that I agree with you that God's presence leaving the Church was bad, but not as bad as the light that shines on the path. Sorry!

Slug1
Jan 23rd 2010, 03:04 AM
OK... thought...

We seem to be split on if this scripture is for individuals within the church or the church.

How does a "church" repent? Allot'a people make up a church and if all but one repents, then the "church" didn't repent.

Brother Mark
Jan 23rd 2010, 03:21 AM
OK... thought...

We seem to be split on if this scripture is for individuals within the church or the church.

How does a "church" repent? Allot'a people make up a church and if all but one repents, then the "church" didn't repent.

Jesus had a church of 12 and one of them was a devil. ;) Certainly 1st Corinthians shows that a church can repent and deal with the one member out of line. Though in the case of Ephesus, I don't see the same situation as the one in 1 Cor. IMO, when Jesus speaks to a church, then when the leaders repent, that is a big step forward. If God disolves a church, then there are no need for elders, bishops, evangelist, etc. within that group anymore. They (the elders, pastors, teachers, etc.) will know they no longer "have a word". But back to the all or nothing thing. Even those that came out of Egypt were a "mixed multitude". IMO, God is speaking to the general condition of the church at Ephesus. Perhaps, like with Sodom, just a few people would make a difference in what the Lord does concerning that congregation.

I think Jesus is speaking to heart of the church in that he is speaking to their purpose and motive. Their focus shifted from Christ. Here's a verse that I think fits well with Ephesus.

2 Cor 11:1
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
NASU

IMO, when a group of people repent, that group would start moving in the direction God intended. Does that mean all follow and all go along completely? To some degree as we see with Israel when they came out of Egypt, all will "go along". However, they were still a mixed multitude. The fowls of the air, the tares, will still find themselves mixing with the wheat and mustard "tree". For those that are doing the works in Ephesus and setting the direction of the church, let's get back to basics and let our devotion be to Christ. Then, we will be in a position to truly minister to those in our midst that may not know Jesus at all.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 23rd 2010, 06:20 AM
:rofl: Sorry I'm not a very good writer. I ment that I agree with you that God's presence leaving the Church was bad, but not as bad as the light that shines on the path. Sorry!

Just giving you a hard time. :P :D

IsItLove?
Jan 23rd 2010, 07:57 AM
same as above ..................................

IsItLove?
Jan 23rd 2010, 07:58 AM
Removed hasty post.

Gone bible reading.

ThyWordIsTruth
Jan 23rd 2010, 10:31 AM
Rev 2:Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

So what does the part of scripture that is underlined/bold mean? Please include other supporting scripture that is relevant to the meaning.

Thanks everyone! :cool:

Hi Slug
The lampstand refers to the church.

Rev 1:20 As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

The lampstand serves to give off light to the world. Without light we'd all stumble around in darkness.

Similarly the church at Ephesus served to give light. I believe Christ is saying if you do not repent, I will remove you as a church.

Either he would remove his Holy Spirit from them and cause them to stumble around in the dark for his truth, or cause them to cease to exist, I think the understanding is that they would no longer be a real church recognized by Christ.

EarlyCall
Jan 23rd 2010, 11:59 AM
I mean ultimately. If they do not return to their first love....then they never truly loved to begin with.

"....then they never truly loved to begin with."

There is a logical problem here. First, it is impossible for one to return to something one never had. Therefore the command from God to return would be illogical and meaningless if they never had it to begin with. But the command from God to return to it is a claim they once in fact had it.

Thus, the claim that if they do not return to it means they never had it makes not the returning to it but rather the existence of it dependent on their choice. In truth, their choice must follow the existence of it.

So again, God gave the command and they were able to choose not based on their decision but on the fact they did once have it. These two things follow the existence of it rather then the existence of it following the correct choice.

Do you see what I mean? Hopefully I explained that well enough as my talent is not explaining things well. :)

ClayInHisHands
Jan 23rd 2010, 03:12 PM
"....then they never truly loved to begin with."

There is a logical problem here. First, it is impossible for one to return to something one never had. Therefore the command from God to return would be illogical and meaningless if they never had it to begin with. But the command from God to return to it is a claim they once in fact had it.

Thus, the claim that if they do not return to it means they never had it makes not the returning to it but rather the existence of it dependent on their choice. In truth, their choice must follow the existence of it.

So again, God gave the command and they were able to choose not based on their decision but on the fact they did once have it. These two things follow the existence of it rather then the existence of it following the correct choice.

Do you see what I mean? Hopefully I explained that well enough as my talent is not explaining things well. :)


You are right, if they return they did have it.

However, if they do not repent, they can lose what they once had....notice how Jesus says.....To him who overcomes I will give of the tree of life to eat.....which I sure would think that means....the promise and assurance of eternal life....right? I think so.

Again, they could lose what they had if they do not repent. That's what I've been trying to say. This can't be denied or else it would make not a single bit of sense in the world what Jesus said about the day of Judgement.....

Matthew 7:21-27

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

I know some will say...these people weren't really christians....they just thought they were.

So with that line of thought may I suggest that Jesus is warning them to repent because He knows they need to and they will. But I think it would be safe to say that there most definitely are some in the church that were/are not truly saved. This would be a warning also to those who maybe think they were close to the Lord like some of these people and Jesus was telling them...you better wake up too...because you both are in the same boat.


In Christ's Love

EarlyCall
Jan 23rd 2010, 05:47 PM
You are right, if they return they did have it.

However, if they do not repent, they can lose what they once had....notice how Jesus says.....To him who overcomes I will give of the tree of life to eat.....which I sure would think that means....the promise and assurance of eternal life....right? I think so.

Again, they could lose what they had if they do not repent. That's what I've been trying to say. This can't be denied or else it would make not a single bit of sense in the world what Jesus said about the day of Judgement.....

Matthew 7:21-27

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

I know some will say...these people weren't really christians....they just thought they were.

So with that line of thought may I suggest that Jesus is warning them to repent because He knows they need to and they will. But I think it would be safe to say that there most definitely are some in the church that were/are not truly saved. This would be a warning also to those who maybe think they were close to the Lord like some of these people and Jesus was telling them...you better wake up too...because you both are in the same boat.


In Christ's Love

Yes, I completely agree with what you say here.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 23rd 2010, 08:09 PM
Yes, I completely agree with what you say here.


Then from what I see from your location status you will agree with this too.....................O - H - I - O

EarlyCall
Jan 24th 2010, 01:22 PM
Then from what I see from your location status you will agree with this too.....................O - H - I - O

Absolutely!!! And I am having Buckeye football withdrawl now.

ClayInHisHands
Jan 24th 2010, 02:01 PM
Absolutely!!! And I am having Buckeye football withdrawl now.


I was born and raised in Indiana...then I lived in Ohio for six years and my wifes sister and husband are huge Buckeye fans, so I started watching and kind of got hooked. I watched but never really was much of a die hard college football fan....but they turned me and now I'm loving it more and more each year....and to top it off my wifes dad and brothers are huge Michigan fans as well....so it gets very interesting...as you can imagine.

I have the Colts to hang on to and more importantly in a few weeks pitchers/catchers report to Spring Training....GO YANKEES!!!

Chaston
Jan 26th 2010, 12:59 AM
I was born and raised in Indiana...then I lived in Ohio for six years and my wifes sister and husband are huge Buckeye fans, so I started watching and kind of got hooked. I watched but never really was much of a die hard college football fan....but they turned me and now I'm loving it more and more each year....and to top it off my wifes dad and brothers are huge Michigan fans as well....so it gets very interesting...as you can imagine.

I have the Colts to hang on to and more importantly in a few weeks pitchers/catchers report to Spring Training....GO YANKEES!!!

GO BLUE! :pp

Radagast
Jan 26th 2010, 11:10 AM
I don't think it was about rules Bro. I think it was about disstraction from the main thing. These folks did fight for doctrine and they persevered in good works. They endured nor did they grow weary. The key... they left their first love.

Who was Israel's first love? They left him and their house was left desolate. When the ark was taken, Ichabod was written over the door. But why was the ark taken? They had left their first love.

In Revelation 2:4, love is not a who, but a what. The word for "love" here is the noun agapē (ἀγάπη, Strong's 26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G26)) which refers to love as a thing (that is, love in the abstract, or the act of loving).

I would think that includes both "'love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and "love your neighbour as yourself."

The phrase "do the things you did at first" (verse 5) suggests that it was particularly actions that were missing in Ephesus. The Ephesians were good at hanging on to pure doctrine ("you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false") and also good at not giving in to persecution ("you have persevered and have endured hardships for my name"), but at least some of the Ephesians seemed to be lacking the kind of love that overflowed in action.

A sobering thought, because the same can be said about many of us.

Chaston
Jan 27th 2010, 12:33 PM
In Revelation 2:4, love is not a who, but a what. The word for "love" here is the noun agapē (ἀγάπη, Strong's 26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G26)) which refers to love as a thing (that is, love in the abstract, or the act of loving).

I would think that includes both "'love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and "love your neighbour as yourself."

The phrase "do the things you did at first" (verse 5) suggests that it was particularly actions that were missing in Ephesus. The Ephesians were good at hanging on to pure doctrine ("you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false") and also good at not giving in to persecution ("you have persevered and have endured hardships for my name"), but at least some of the Ephesians seemed to be lacking the kind of love that overflowed in action.

A sobering thought, because the same can be said about many of us.

Could you please explain what you mean by actions? Do you mean love for their neighbors?