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Amos_with_goats
Feb 3rd 2010, 03:56 AM
Over the last several years I have encountered this belief (or at least this statement).

I know some will argue semantics, but I find the statement can lead to some failrly destructive conclusions.

I hear this, and I shiver. Believers forever waiting until they are 'good enough' understanding with their head that they can be washed but taking as an excuse their failures and faults.... waiting until they have been made 'clean enough'.

The saying that the Lord does not use unclean vessels is false on it's face... there are NO other vessels available other then those who are constantly being cleaned BY Him, for His service.

1 John 1:7 (New King James Version)

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. IIRC 'cleanses' is in the Greek 'perfect' tense. It is as thought

The Blood of Christ Continues to Continue to cleans us from sin..... it is ongoing.

There are no perfect Christians, just Christians being made perfect. There are no clean vessels, only ones being made clean.

There is never a reason to wait to submit, and to follow.

gringo300
Feb 3rd 2010, 10:55 AM
I'd need to know a little on the context of the statement to really be able to comment on it.

AndrewBaptistFL
Feb 3rd 2010, 11:36 AM
I agree that no one is good except God Himself and that we are all in need of constant cleansing of unrightousness. I have seen God use "unclean vessels" in instances where he has used myself and others. Though not strong on our own, we can be made strong in Christ. We need to keep our ears open to the Holy Spirit and make sure we are ready to "jump" when the Lord says "jump".

tango
Feb 3rd 2010, 11:41 AM
As gringo says, it's hard to comment without any context and without knowing exactly what is meant by "unclean vessels".

As a forgiven sinner God may use me despite my failings. So on that basis God does use unclean vessels on the basis that if he is using humans then by definition he is using unclean vessels.

But if the original comment meant to ask whether God will use people who are engaged in ongoing and wilful sin it becomes more of a point of discussion. It seems to me God is unlikely to use non-Christians to further the kingdom and if a Christian falls into wilful and habitual sin it would seem likely that any ministry they had would not experience the same blessed success as it would if they were not engaged in wilful and habitual sin.

If this is an argument used by Christians who don't feel ready to step out because they aren't perfect yet then it sounds like something the devil is telling them to keep them from being active warriors. Since the devil cannot withstand the sword of truth what better defence than to persuade those who might wield it that they are unworthy to do so, but with that ever-vague "maybe someday" clause to keep them trying to achieve the impossible before standing up to fight, and thereby keeping them constantly disheartened?

arcadia
Feb 3rd 2010, 11:55 AM
He uses anyone he wants. Sin or no sin. Sampson was used by God. Nebuchadnezzar is called His servant. He has used me and he can use you!

blessedmommyuv3
Feb 3rd 2010, 11:55 AM
Your post brought to my mind this scripture:

John 13:
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. 3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

8“No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

9“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

10Jesus answered, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

God regenerates us, and we are vessels for His use. This regeneration clothes us with Christ's righteousness before God.

Ephesians 2:
10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


In Christ,
Jen
*edited to add: I agree with Arcadia; In God's sovereignty He uses anyone and anything He wills for His purposes; He spoke through Balaam's donkey after all. ;)

Slug1
Feb 3rd 2010, 01:19 PM
Look at me, unclean but being cleaned and used by the Lord. I don't let a chain the Lord has allowed to remain, to drag me down to a stop, it's slowed me when I allow it to slow me but God reminds me that He's using it to develop the testimony of His work in my life so His glory, can be seen by others.

I'll be the first to say I struggle and to some Christians... they look down at me because I struggle... like I'm not good enough for them to be listening to me... well, I'm good enough for God to speak through me, so I keep speaking what He puts on my lips. I see it on this board even but then I also have those with the mercy of God in them offering help (some have even given me Words from God) and the Lord glorifies Himself through them as I receive help that God has given them to give to me. As God works in me and I experience His mercy, I offer words to help as well. I miss all the counseling the Lord enabled me to do behind the scenes when I was a leader here... MODS, no... don't ask, the Lord has me helping elsewhere but I do miss the chance to help here as the Lord led.

-SEEKING-
Feb 3rd 2010, 01:45 PM
THe Lord Does NOT USE unclean vessels...... yea or nea?


I'd have to say nea. Or else I'd never be used.

notuptome
Feb 3rd 2010, 02:01 PM
Amos 3:3 says Can two walk together except they be agreed? There seems to be a school of thought in the modern church that we can live any way we want and still serve God. Did not the Lord say be ye holy as I am holy? Lev 20:7, 1 Pet 1:16 Paul wrote in Romans 12:1-2 that we are to present our bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Why would this be necessary if God was just going to use anyone He chose any how? 1 Cor 6:19-20 Can we think that the Holy Spirit of God works in a polluted temple? Does not Paul plead with the Corinthian believers to be clean? 2 Cor 6:11-18 Why did Jesus wash the disciples feet? Not because they were not clean but because they were not all clean. John 13:2-14 esp vs 10.

The modern church seems to think that it can look like and act like the world and be useful to God. I think this is tragically wrong thinking. The worlds music has gotten into the church. The worlds moral values have gotten into the church. The reasoning of men has replaced the word of God as the basis for doctine and conduct.

If the church continues to feed its earthly passions with rock music it will perish. If the church continues to appoint persons to ministry who are not biblically qualified the church will perish. Women pastors, sodomites and men who have multiple marriages or extra-marital affairs are not anointed by God to declare the word of God.

Balaam's donkey...well I'm tempted to draw some illustrations from him but I will forego for now.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

SammeyDW
Feb 3rd 2010, 02:53 PM
I will quote a friend on mine that is also a pastor.

He had two things to say on this subject.

"If we our clean, then we are only clean because He has made us clean through the shedding of His blood.
Not by anything we did / can do.
100% Him 0% us = CLEAN"

and

"If He only used clean vessels then nothing would get done,
especially in the physical church. Because there are nothing but broken, dirty , 'unclean', ... vessels."

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 3rd 2010, 03:40 PM
Over the last several years I have encountered this belief (or at least this statement).

I know some will argue semantics, but I find the statement can lead to some failrly destructive conclusions.

I hear this, and I shiver. Believers forever waiting until they are 'good enough' understanding with their head that they can be washed but taking as an excuse their failures and faults.... waiting until they have been made 'clean enough'.

The saying that the Lord does not use unclean vessels is false on it's face... there are NO other vessels available other then those who are constantly being cleaned BY Him, for His service.

1 John 1:7 (New King James Version)

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. IIRC 'cleanses' is in the Greek 'perfect' tense. It is as thought

The Blood of Christ Continues to Continue to cleans us from sin..... it is ongoing.

There are no perfect Christians, just Christians being made perfect. There are no clean vessels, only ones being made clean.

There is never a reason to wait to submit, and to follow.

He can use anything and anybody He wants...

He used a donkey in the OT...

in the NT.. the Sanhedrin when in Conference about this Carpenter from Nazareth, Jesus.. He who was Claiming to be the Son of God.. which He is... these Jesus Staunchest Enemies... the High Priest 'actually' Prophesied about Jesus Death.. here is one of Jesus Christ's Staunchest enemy and accuser.. 'prophesying'....

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Notice that if you go back and read earlier.. Jesus's open rebuke of these leaders... calling them white washed tombs..appearing outwardly to be Righteous, but inwardly 'unclean' and full of corruption...

God used one of these 'unclean' vessels.. unclean 'inwardly'............. to prophesy and to make the Scriptures come to pass..

thru a clean vessel??? no...

God can use anything He wants or anyone He wants.. He is 100% Sovereign

Vhayes
Feb 3rd 2010, 03:55 PM
It's the death and resurrection of the lord Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes us sad, chipped vessels clean, not our ability to look all shiny on the outside.

Slug1
Feb 3rd 2010, 04:03 PM
We even read about Rahab in the NT... God uses anyone despite any weakness they may have.

notuptome
Feb 3rd 2010, 05:43 PM
We even read about Rahab in the NT... God uses anyone despite any weakness they may have.
God brought Israel out of Egypt God separated Israel from Egypt that they might worship Him. Israel wanted to go back to Egypt and look what happened. Exodus 32

Christ saved us out of the world and set us apart that we might worship Him. Many have gone back into the world and serve Him no more. Even worse Christians have brought all the trappings of the world into the church. Worldly music, no moral standards and no desire for the truth. Saved but not willing to be separate and holy unto the Lord. How many blessings has the Lord not been able to bless these with can never be known. If a Christian is not clean or desirous of being clean God will use one who is. Look at Noah. Noah was not like the rest of the people he was living with. So shall it be when the Son of Man comes.

God does not have to use dirty vessels. God always has a remnant that is clean and can be blessed.

Weak vessels and polluted vessels are not synonymous. Purge your idols from your hearts. Put on Christ and put off the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amos_with_goats
Feb 3rd 2010, 05:48 PM
He uses anyone he wants. Sin or no sin. Sampson was used by God. Nebuchadnezzar is called His servant. He has used me and he can use you!

Amen, my point exactly. I appreciate that fact greatly!.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 3rd 2010, 05:49 PM
I'd need to know a little on the context of the statement to really be able to comment on it.

Maybe that is part of the problem, the lack of context that comes with such 'extra scriptural' catch phrases. The meaning is uncertain, and (IMHO) they can lead to un necessary confusion.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 3rd 2010, 05:51 PM
I agree that no one is good except God Himself and that we are all in need of constant cleansing of unrightousness. I have seen God use "unclean vessels" in instances where he has used myself and others. Though not strong on our own, we can be made strong in Christ. We need to keep our ears open to the Holy Spirit and make sure we are ready to "jump" when the Lord says "jump".

Absolutely! If we wait until we are free from sin, we will be waiting for a LONG time... at least beyond this struggle with the flesh. It would be (and is) truly sad when the Lord says 'jump' and we say 'not yet, I am not ready'.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 3rd 2010, 05:54 PM
....As a forgiven sinner God may use me despite my failings. So on that basis God does use unclean vessels on the basis that if he is using humans then by definition he is using unclean vessels.

....If this is an argument used by Christians who don't feel ready to step out because they aren't perfect yet then it sounds like something the devil is telling them to keep them from being active warriors. Since the devil cannot withstand the sword of truth what better defence than to persuade those who might wield it that they are unworthy to do so, but with that ever-vague "maybe someday" clause to keep them trying to achieve the impossible before standing up to fight, and thereby keeping them constantly disheartened?

Amen!

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 3rd 2010, 05:58 PM
Look at me, unclean but being cleaned and used by the Lord. I don't let a chain the Lord has allowed to remain, to drag me down to a stop, it's slowed me when I allow it to slow me but God reminds me that He's using it to develop the testimony of His work in my life so His glory, can be seen by others.....

Again, Amen!

I believe that very chain is what the 'Accuser of the Brethern' would grab ahold of as a leash on Believers. We must not allow our flesh to win this battle.

Not to give it control, or excuse our sin... to add to the chain.. but to 'press on'.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 3rd 2010, 06:00 PM
Your post brought to my mind this scripture:

.....Ephesians 2:
10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.[/B]


In Christ,
Jen
*edited to add: I agree with Arcadia; In God's sovereignty He uses anyone and anything He wills for His purposes; He spoke through Balaam's donkey after all. ;)

Jen,

By way of confirmation... I am to teach this Sunday. The passage the Lord has arranged for me? The very one you cite. :)

Blessings sister!

threebigrocks
Feb 3rd 2010, 07:57 PM
God brought Israel out of Egypt God separated Israel from Egypt that they might worship Him. Israel wanted to go back to Egypt and look what happened. Exodus 32

Christ saved us out of the world and set us apart that we might worship Him. Many have gone back into the world and serve Him no more. Even worse Christians have brought all the trappings of the world into the church. Worldly music, no moral standards and no desire for the truth. Saved but not willing to be separate and holy unto the Lord. How many blessings has the Lord not been able to bless these with can never be known. If a Christian is not clean or desirous of being clean God will use one who is. Look at Noah. Noah was not like the rest of the people he was living with. So shall it be when the Son of Man comes.

God does not have to use dirty vessels. God always has a remnant that is clean and can be blessed.

Weak vessels and polluted vessels are not synonymous. Purge your idols from your hearts. Put on Christ and put off the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Curious Roger.

What does scripture say about cleanliness? This isn't about how churches or Christians can look a lot like the world. They can and do. But what about the OP?

John 13
10Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."

11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

Keeping this verse in mind, here's a question. Was Peter or Thomas ever "unclean", not standing perfectly in faith but holy and blameless, after they began to follow Christ?

Reynolds357
Feb 3rd 2010, 08:01 PM
Over the last several years I have encountered this belief (or at least this statement).

I know some will argue semantics, but I find the statement can lead to some failrly destructive conclusions.

I hear this, and I shiver. Believers forever waiting until they are 'good enough' understanding with their head that they can be washed but taking as an excuse their failures and faults.... waiting until they have been made 'clean enough'.

The saying that the Lord does not use unclean vessels is false on it's face... there are NO other vessels available other then those who are constantly being cleaned BY Him, for His service.

1 John 1:7 (New King James Version)

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. IIRC 'cleanses' is in the Greek 'perfect' tense. It is as thought

The Blood of Christ Continues to Continue to cleans us from sin..... it is ongoing.

There are no perfect Christians, just Christians being made perfect. There are no clean vessels, only ones being made clean.

There is never a reason to wait to submit, and to follow.

I think the cliche "God does not use unclean vessels" is garbage.

VerticalReality
Feb 3rd 2010, 08:13 PM
It's the death and resurrection of the lord Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes us sad, chipped vessels clean, not our ability to look all shiny on the outside.

This is the truth of the word of God . . .

Those who are in Christ are cleansed DESPITE the imperfections of the flesh.

David Taylor
Feb 3rd 2010, 08:20 PM
If the church continues to feed its earthly passions with rock music it will perish. If the church continues to appoint persons to ministry who are not biblically qualified the church will perish. Women pastors, sodomites and men who have multiple marriages or extra-marital affairs are not anointed by God to declare the word of God.

Balaam's donkey...well I'm tempted to draw some illustrations from him but I will forego for now.



Seem's a little excessive Roger.
Music style in-and-of-itself isn't wicked. What is the message? Does it uplift and edify or does it tear down and cause harm.
The good ole shape-noted hymn "It is well with my soul" might uplift and edify a senior, but might be boring to a youth; but the message is sound to both...it is just a preference difference.
Likewise, Stryper screaming out "Soldiers Under Command" might uplift and edify a Youth, but likely would be too much for a senior to enjoy or understand....but still the message uplifts it's target audience just as much as "It is well with my soul" does to to Seniors.

You gotta remember that sometimes God will use people to bring others to Him, and to bring glory to His name even though those particular people may have committed great sins in their lives.

For example, if we say that men who have multiple marriages or extra-marital affairs cannot be ordained by God to declare word of God (at least later after turning from those sins and repenting) then we would have to remove Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon from the Bible because of the sorrid affairs that David and Solomon had committed.

You have to be willing to forgive as God forgives, and accept and apply grace and patience to all situations. Sometimes the folks who had fallen the most into sin, end up with some of the most powerful and useful testimonies later used by God to reach others. (Saul, Zaccaeus, etc...)

Slug1
Feb 3rd 2010, 08:43 PM
Seem's a little excessive Roger.
Music style in-and-of-itself isn't wicked. What is the message? Does it uplift and edify or does it tear down and cause harm.
The good ole shape-noted hymn "It is well with my soul" might uplift and edify a senior, but might be boring to a youth; but the message is sound to both...it is just a preference difference.Kutless just covered this song on their new worship CD which is titled "It is Well" ... it ROCKS and the youth would not be bored by this song. Now the Lord can reach the youth as well with this beautiful and Holy Spirit filled song.

notuptome
Feb 3rd 2010, 08:56 PM
Curious Roger.

What does scripture say about cleanliness? This isn't about how churches or Christians can look a lot like the world. They can and do. But what about the OP?

John 13
10Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."

11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

Keeping this verse in mind, here's a question. Was Peter or Thomas ever "unclean", not standing perfectly in faith but holy and blameless, after they began to follow Christ?
Based on 1 John 1:9-10 I think we must conclude that they sinned and needed their feet washed from time to time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 3rd 2010, 09:00 PM
I think the cliche "God does not use unclean vessels" is garbage.
We are not to be conformed to the world. Rom 12:2

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 3rd 2010, 09:25 PM
Seem's a little excessive Roger.
Me excessive!!!??? I am amused.


Music style in-and-of-itself isn't wicked. What is the message? Does it uplift and edify or does it tear down and cause harm.
The good ole shape-noted hymn "It is well with my soul" might uplift and edify a senior, but might be boring to a youth; but the message is sound to both...it is just a preference difference.
Likewise, Stryper screaming out "Soldiers Under Command" might uplift and edify a Youth, but likely would be too much for a senior to enjoy or understand....but still the message uplifts it's target audience just as much as "It is well with my soul" does to to Seniors.
Mans wisdom and not Gods wisdom. 1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world neither the things that are in the world...for all that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes...is not of the Father. God does not attract audiences He creates new creatures in His Son Christ. Rock music is the great golden calf that is robbing the church of it's life. You cannot be light and salt in the age if you are as worldly as any night club.


You gotta remember that sometimes God will use people to bring others to Him, and to bring glory to His name even though those particular people may have committed great sins in their lives.
My mistake I thought that was the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Our command is to preach the word and trust God to give the increase.


For example, if we say that men who have multiple marriages or extra-marital affairs cannot be ordained by God to declare word of God (at least later after turning from those sins and repenting) then we would have to remove Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon from the Bible because of the sorrid affairs that David and Solomon had committed.
Then cut 1 Tim 3 out of your bible. God judged David for his sin and God judged Soloman for his sin. Israel wanted Saul as their king but Saul was not the man God wanted. God gave Israel a king of their choosing that He might demonstrate their lack of understanding in such matters. Any congregation that desires a pastor who is biblically disqualified will have more than they bargained for and never have what God wants for them.


You have to be willing to forgive as God forgives, and accept and apply grace and patience to all situations. Sometimes the folks who had fallen the most into sin, end up with some of the most powerful and useful testimonies later used by God to reach others. (Saul, Zaccaeus, etc...)
I have no problem with forgivness only God says these are not qualified for pulpit ministry. There are other areas of service but the pulpit is not one of them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

byfaith1
Feb 3rd 2010, 09:27 PM
As I sit here and ponder the posts in response to the OP, (I'm assuming that stands for original post.) John 4 will not leave me. Especially verse 39. She obviously was not a clean vessel and yet............

notuptome
Feb 3rd 2010, 09:34 PM
Kutless just covered this song on their new worship CD which is titled "It is Well" ... it ROCKS and the youth would not be bored by this song. Now the Lord can reach the youth as well with this beautiful and Holy Spirit filled song.
That woud be totally counter to the nature of Christ. They will be reached by the word through the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 3rd 2010, 09:40 PM
As I sit here and ponder the posts in response to the OP, (I'm assuming that stands for original post.) John 4 will not leave me. Especially verse 39. She obviously was not a clean vessel and yet............
She had been with Christ and she received His word what more shall we ask of her? The first qualification for service is a saving knowledge of Christ. The second is to live separated unto Christ apart from the corruption of the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

David Taylor
Feb 3rd 2010, 10:40 PM
Mans wisdom and not Gods wisdom. 1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world neither the things that are in the world...for all that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes...is not of the Father. God does not attract audiences He creates new creatures in His Son Christ. Rock music is the great golden calf that is robbing the church of it's life. You cannot be light and salt in the age if you are as worldly as any night club.

If you haven't noticed it Roger, Christian worship exists through all types of musical styles. Rock, Pop, Rap, Praise, Hymn, Southern Gospel, Contemporary, Jazz, Blues, Accapello, Barbershop, Symphonic, Opera, and 50 other types I cannot name.

Mans wisdom can't put musical styles into a box. You personally have no more right to do a carte-blanche condemnation of Rock style than you have the right to bless and accept Praise and Southern Gospel style.....the style of the music isn't inherently evil....rather.....what is the message?

Just like Slug said above, a band that does primarily Rock and Rap has re-recorded the Southern Gospel hymn "It is Well with my soul".....does the music style really trump the message and lyrics (when they are identically praising God?)




My mistake I thought that was the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Our command is to preach the word and trust God to give the increase.

Yes it is your mistake...good call, because the Holy Spirit does use us to bring others to Him. (Cornelius via Peter, Ethiopian via Philip, the Jailor vis Paul and Silas....singing praises to God BTW)



Then cut 1 Tim 3 out of your bible. God judged David for his sin and God judged Soloman for his sin. Israel wanted Saul as their king but Saul was not the man God wanted. God gave Israel a king of their choosing that He might demonstrate their lack of understanding in such matters. Any congregation that desires a pastor who is biblically disqualified will have more than they bargained for and never have what God wants for them.

No need to cut I Tim 3 out of the bible either. It can co-exist alongside the writings of the murderer David and the adultering womanizer Solomon's writings just fine....as long as we don't mis-interpret I Tim 3 to force a burden on some who cannot bare it. Anyone who was a murderer or an adulterer, or whatever....can follow the path of I Tim 3 after then repent...they can even sing and dance to God's glory via a rocked up version of It is Well.



I have no problem with forgivness only God says these are not qualified for pulpit ministry. There are other areas of service but the pulpit is not one of them.


Only men who are actively practicing and have not turned from and repented of past sins (described in I Tim 3) are withheld by it from being able to, as you said it, "be ordained by God to declare word of God"....like David and Solomon were when they wrote the Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclestiastes, and Song of Solomon.

Let me as you this Roger....

Did God ordain David and Solomon to declare the word of God in the writings of Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclestiastes, and Song of Solomon?

The proper answer to that question is likewise the proper way to apply I Tim 3 to an individual regarding whether or not they can be "be ordained by God to declare word of God" or not.

Reynolds357
Feb 4th 2010, 12:54 AM
We are not to be conformed to the world. Rom 12:2

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Agreed. In Christ, we are righteous. When one says "God can not use an unclean vessel," they are referring to our self righteousness. My and your self righteousness is as a "filthy rags" in God's sight. So if God does not use unclean vessels, then He has NO ONE that He can use.

Servant89
Feb 4th 2010, 01:06 AM
God made a donkey talk to send his message.

God used a prophet that ended up in hell (Balaam).

God used the high priest that crucified Jesus to prophesy that one man should die for Israel (Jesus) in John 18:14.

God used sinful priests that worshipped idols to minister to Israelites in Eze 44:10-11.

And God certainly uses me and you, yeah you.

Pleeeeease !

Shalom

threebigrocks
Feb 4th 2010, 02:04 AM
Based on 1 John 1:9-10 I think we must conclude that they sinned and needed their feet washed from time to time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Wouldn't that have made them unclean vessels? The Lord still used them, correct? Even promised Peter than on the rock, Peter's faith, that His church would be built on it.

Yet, Christ also knew Peter would deny Him three times.

How is that using a clean vessel? Was Peter not used during his denial, and out of that raised up to exhibit his great faith? How is that unclean?

Thomas. Christ came to the upper room, twice, the second time just to show doubting Thomas that He indeed was risen.

Moses. He was a murderer.

Saul. He was looney and turned from Christ to call up the spirit of Samuel through a seer. Yet in his evil state he was used to refine the character of David we see revealed in the Psalms.

David was an adulteress and murderer. Bathsheeba, and then her husband was killed by David's direction. He pretty much broke all 10 commandments there.

The list goes on.

Hebrews 11. The faith hall of fame. What was the character of those men? Always clean, or still used in despite of their blemishes?

The only clean vessel to have ever walked this earth was Christ.

Amos_with_goats
Feb 4th 2010, 05:48 AM
......The only clean vessel to have ever walked this earth was Christ.

:pp:pp:pp

Amen....................................

IsItLove?
Feb 4th 2010, 07:55 AM
Over the last several years I have encountered this belief (or at least this statement).

I know some will argue semantics, but I find the statement can lead to some failrly destructive conclusions.

I hear this, and I shiver. Believers forever waiting until they are 'good enough' understanding with their head that they can be washed but taking as an excuse their failures and faults.... waiting until they have been made 'clean enough'.

The saying that the Lord does not use unclean vessels is false on it's face... there are NO other vessels available other then those who are constantly being cleaned BY Him, for His service.

1 John 1:7 (New King James Version)

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. IIRC 'cleanses' is in the Greek 'perfect' tense. It is as thought

The Blood of Christ Continues to Continue to cleans us from sin..... it is ongoing.

There are no perfect Christians, just Christians being made perfect. There are no clean vessels, only ones being made clean.

There is never a reason to wait to submit, and to follow.

One can not deny that holiness, sanctification, maturity has an impact on how God is able to use us!

I believe God will use us in the extent that we have been sanctified, in that sense the statement given is correct.
if God uses an aspect of your life that has be set apart to God (made holy) for some good work of His, you become blessed in it as well.
If God where to use some aspect of your life which is still caught up in sinfulness, to do His work it would result in blessing of sin; That cant be!
The other option we see is in God using the sinful to do good works, often disciplinary judgement against the righteous and the end result for the sinful is that they where judged in destruction.


How do you define clean?
Having never sinned?
Having ceased from sin?

Is the mercy in Jesus atoning blood able to make us totally clean?

Does His grace remove sin or allow us to remain in sin?

Servant89
Feb 4th 2010, 12:01 PM
One can not deny that holiness, sanctification, maturity has an impact on how God is able to use us!

I believe God will use us in the extent that we have been sanctified, in that sense the statement given is correct.
if God uses an aspect of your life that has be set apart to God (made holy) for some good work of His, you become blessed in it as well.
If God where to use some aspect of your life which is still caught up in sinfulness, to do His work it would result in blessing of sin; That cant be!
The other option we see is in God using the sinful to do good works, often disciplinary judgement against the righteous and the end result for the sinful is that they where judged in destruction.


How do you define clean?
Having never sinned?
Having ceased from sin?

Is the mercy in Jesus atoning blood able to make us totally clean?

Does His grace remove sin or allow us to remain in sin?

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Do we need to be clean in accordance to the law before we can minister?

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Shalom

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2010, 01:15 PM
Acts 11:1-18

11 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, 3 saying, "You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them." 4 But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying, 5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me, 6 and when I had fixed my gaze upon it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air. 7 "And I also heard a voice saying to me, 'Arise, Peter; kill and eat.' 8 "But I said, 'By no means, Lord, for nothing unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' 9 "But a voice from heaven answered a second time, 'What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.' 10 "And this happened three times, and everything was drawn back up into the sky. 11 "And behold, at that moment three men appeared before the house in which we were staying, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 "And the Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. And these six brethren also went with me, and we entered the man's house. 13 "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' 15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" 18 And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
NASB

If one is saved, they are not unclean. Perhaps their feet need washing, but they are a clean vessel. Why would we call unclean what God has cleansed?

Firefighter
Feb 4th 2010, 02:04 PM
God often uses me IN SPITE OF me...

Luke 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Firefighter
Feb 4th 2010, 02:05 PM
Why would we call unclean what God has cleansed?

Because it makes us feel spiritually superior silly...:rolleyes:

Slug1
Feb 4th 2010, 02:24 PM
God often uses me IN SPITE OF me...

Luke 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."AMEN... God knows me better then I know myself and when I'm tired of fussing (hindering myself) or when the enemy has completed his attempts to hinder me... He patiently reminds me of His will. Then once I step out of the boat I find that I don't get wet at all and that as long as I listen to any specific instructions and don't do anything "my" way... accomplishing all He's telling me to do is easy.

Firefighter
Feb 4th 2010, 02:43 PM
CONFESSION


There have been weeks that I knew before I got up to the pulpit, that I was not in a position to be preaching. There were weeks that I didn't even want to be behind the pulpit. There were weeks that I preached that I felt so far away from God it was not funny and felt like I was standing there all alone. People still came to know the Lord as their Savior in spite of all of that. Fortunately I am not the power of God unto salvation. Fortunately, it actually has very little to do with me. God used me in those instances in spite of me, and people's lives were forever changed.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

threebigrocks
Feb 4th 2010, 03:32 PM
Amen, even when we are not worthy, it doesn't matter. It's not about us. It's about Jesus. It's not us standing there, we are only a lowly servant trying to strive for what is right, being sanctified, being refined, reaching toward holiness. Most days, we do okay. Some days, not so much. Christ has already done the work, and He and His work are sufficient. We walk by faith and not by sight because sometimes what we see isn't so grand.

Slug1
Feb 4th 2010, 04:17 PM
Amen, even when we are not worthy, it doesn't matter. It's not about us. It's about Jesus. It's not us standing there, we are only a lowly servant trying to strive for what is right, being sanctified, being refined, reaching toward holiness. Most days, we do okay. Some days, not so much. Christ has already done the work, and He and His work are sufficient. We walk by faith and not by sight because sometimes what we see isn't so grand.Hooah... Jesus looks in us, into our hearts and knows what we can be for Him as His work is done in us. This doesn't make us useless for Him if we stumble, He takes the stumbling and the fact He led us back to a standing position and this is more testimony He can use to glorify Himself.

In your post #21 you mentioned the word blameless and I don't think some people understand the meaning of what to be blameless before God is. First of all , it does NOT mean spotless as in without "any" sin and anyone that thinks they can be spotless is lying to themselves. We put a whole different light upon blameless then God does. If we fall and spend time in repentance, once God stands us back up in restoration we are once again without "that" spot and God has forgotten that spot except for the purpose to use it as His testimony of His work in ones life. Man is the only one who holds that previous spot against their fellow man and will even call a person of God, a person who is being used by God, a person who is so close in their relationship with God that they are able to hear the will of God for them as if God is speaking out loud... yet they will say, NO... they can't be used by God due to their past sin.

I'm am so glad that God has enough mercy to cover for all those who don't have any inside of them as they look at their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ standing with them in the Body of Christ.

Oh, back to blameless... to be blameless is to know the spot in us and give it to God. He takes that spot due to our repentance and forgives us and the spot is gone... spotless. Not spotless in the sense we are spotless as in never without a sin but that we remain in repentance and when we stumble (WHEN WE STUMBLE), the spot is given to God, nailed to the cross and we are forgiven.

We need to look upon others as without spot when the one we are looking at is blameless before the Lord and is being used by Him despite our opinion and our expressed lack of mercy and love expressed to others.

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 06:33 PM
If you haven't noticed it Roger, Christian worship exists through all types of musical styles. Rock, Pop, Rap, Praise, Hymn, Southern Gospel, Contemporary, Jazz, Blues, Accapello, Barbershop, Symphonic, Opera, and 50 other types I cannot name.

Mans wisdom can't put musical styles into a box. You personally have no more right to do a carte-blanche condemnation of Rock style than you have the right to bless and accept Praise and Southern Gospel style.....the style of the music isn't inherently evil....rather.....what is the message?
Rock music is the whited sepulcher of the modern evangelical church. Putting Christian words to music that is all about rebellion hardly make it fit for Christians to consume. Rock music is an idol that has no place in God's temple.


Just like Slug said above, a band that does primarily Rock and Rap has re-recorded the Southern Gospel hymn "It is Well with my soul".....does the music style really trump the message and lyrics (when they are identically praising God?)
Imagine my suprize that the devil wants to compromise Godly music. They are not identically praising God. One is praising God the other is praising god.


Yes it is your mistake...good call, because the Holy Spirit does use us to bring others to Him. (Cornelius via Peter, Ethiopian via Philip, the Jailor vis Paul and Silas....singing praises to God BTW)
John 6:44 No man can come to Me except the Father Who hath sent Me draw him... Our commisssion is to go to teach we do not draw anyone. Mat 28:19-20


No need to cut I Tim 3 out of the bible either. It can co-exist alongside the writings of the murderer David and the adultering womanizer Solomon's writings just fine....as long as we don't mis-interpret I Tim 3 to force a burden on some who cannot bare it. Anyone who was a murderer or an adulterer, or whatever....can follow the path of I Tim 3 after then repent...they can even sing and dance to God's glory via a rocked up version of It is Well.
Hab 2:4 Behold his soul that is lifted up is not upright in him: David and Soloman were never held in the same esteem as they were after their sin. Jehovah judged them severely for their sin. They never regained what the lost in their relationship with God. Their souls were secure in the Lord but they never regained their first estate in God.


Only men who are actively practicing and have not turned from and repented of past sins (described in I Tim 3) are withheld by it from being able to, as you said it, "be ordained by God to declare word of God"....like David and Solomon were when they wrote the Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclestiastes, and Song of Solomon.
Once a mans reputation has been damaged he cannot ever regain it. When you make a shipwreck of your ministry it cannot be recovered. A lesser ministy is still possible if repentance and forgivness is sought from the Lord. But the pulpit is forever lost to ones who commit adultery or fornication in the ministry. No wiggle room in 1 Tim 3 none. Those that remarry do they not commit adultery and make their spouse an adulterer as well?


Let me as you this Roger....

Did God ordain David and Solomon to declare the word of God in the writings of Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclestiastes, and Song of Solomon?

The proper answer to that question is likewise the proper way to apply I Tim 3 to an individual regarding whether or not they can be "be ordained by God to declare word of God" or not.
The Holy Spirit was not trying to be vague in 1 Tim 3 when He gave the qualifications for pastors and deacons. You cannot use the sin of one to excuse the sin of another.

I am greived that men who were mighty preachers of the word exchange that noble ministry for a moments pleasure with an harlot. If God's judgment seems severe I suspect it is supposed to be that others follow not that path.

Men do not desire purity and holiness in their leaders because they do not desire purity and holiness in their own hearts. 2 Cor 6:14-8 seems far from the hearts of many today who claim the name of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Reynolds357
Feb 4th 2010, 06:41 PM
CONFESSION


There have been weeks that I knew before I got up to the pulpit, that I was not in a position to be preaching. There were weeks that I didn't even want to be behind the pulpit. There were weeks that I preached that I felt so far away from God it was not funny and felt like I was standing there all alone. People still came to know the Lord as their Savior in spite of all of that. Fortunately I am not the power of God unto salvation. Fortunately, it actually has very little to do with me. God used me in those instances in spite of me, and people's lives were forever changed.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I know what you mean. Been there too. Sometimes I preach my best when I am at my worst. I think the more messed up I am the more dependent on HIM I have to be.

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 06:46 PM
Acts 11:1-18

11 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, 3 saying, "You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them." 4 But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying, 5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me, 6 and when I had fixed my gaze upon it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air. 7 "And I also heard a voice saying to me, 'Arise, Peter; kill and eat.' 8 "But I said, 'By no means, Lord, for nothing unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' 9 "But a voice from heaven answered a second time, 'What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.' 10 "And this happened three times, and everything was drawn back up into the sky. 11 "And behold, at that moment three men appeared before the house in which we were staying, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 "And the Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. And these six brethren also went with me, and we entered the man's house. 13 "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.' 15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" 18 And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
NASB
This is totally unrelated to the personal relationship of believers to Christ. Peter was being enlightened by God that gentiles would be saved as well as Jews.


If one is saved, they are not unclean. Perhaps their feet need washing, but they are a clean vessel. Why would we call unclean what God has cleansed?
Saved people need from time to time to have their feet washed. That is the whole point of God desiring clean vessels for His use. If a believer has sin in his/her life that sin needs to be confessed and repented of so that the vessel can be used of God. You cannot share the gospel with someone if you are harboring ill will or lust in your heart toward that person.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 06:52 PM
Hooah... Jesus looks in us, into our hearts and knows what we can be for Him as His work is done in us. This doesn't make us useless for Him if we stumble, He takes the stumbling and the fact He led us back to a standing position and this is more testimony He can use to glorify Himself.

In your post #21 you mentioned the word blameless and I don't think some people understand the meaning of what to be blameless before God is. First of all , it does NOT mean spotless as in without "any" sin and anyone that thinks they can be spotless is lying to themselves. We put a whole different light upon blameless then God does. If we fall and spend time in repentance, once God stands us back up in restoration we are once again without "that" spot and God has forgotten that spot except for the purpose to use it as His testimony of His work in ones life. Man is the only one who holds that previous spot against their fellow man and will even call a person of God, a person who is being used by God, a person who is so close in their relationship with God that they are able to hear the will of God for them as if God is speaking out loud... yet they will say, NO... they can't be used by God due to their past sin.

I'm am so glad that God has enough mercy to cover for all those who don't have any inside of them as they look at their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ standing with them in the Body of Christ.

Oh, back to blameless... to be blameless is to know the spot in us and give it to God. He takes that spot due to our repentance and forgives us and the spot is gone... spotless. Not spotless in the sense we are spotless as in never without a sin but that we remain in repentance and when we stumble (WHEN WE STUMBLE), the spot is given to God, nailed to the cross and we are forgiven.

We need to look upon others as without spot when the one we are looking at is blameless before the Lord and is being used by Him despite our opinion and our expressed lack of mercy and love expressed to others.
Explain to me how you can believe that a man can be pruned from the vine if he sins and lose his salvation for not abiding but you allow one who has sin in their life to minister the word of God? Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit fills and uses hearts that are encumbered with sin? Do you eat off dirty plates or drink coffee from dirty cups? Before I use a plate I prefer that it have made a trip through the dishwasher. Paul spoke candidly tothe Corinthians in 2 Cor 6:11-18 about this subject because it is important that we understand it and do it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 07:02 PM
Amen, even when we are not worthy, it doesn't matter. It's not about us. It's about Jesus. It's not us standing there, we are only a lowly servant trying to strive for what is right, being sanctified, being refined, reaching toward holiness. Most days, we do okay. Some days, not so much. Christ has already done the work, and He and His work are sufficient. We walk by faith and not by sight because sometimes what we see isn't so grand.
We can never be worthy in this life. It does matter as to whether we strive to be holy, pure and clean in the presence of God. It is part of the sanctifying process. It is an exhortation from God to do so. 2 Cor 6:14-18 God expects us to seek to be holy. God chastises us to aid the process of us becoming holy. God does not compel us to become holy. If we refuse to be holy God simply will not use us and we will suffer loss of rewards.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Feb 4th 2010, 07:38 PM
Explain to me how you can believe that a man can be pruned from the vine if he sins and lose his salvation for not abiding but you allow one who has sin in their life to minister the word of God? I never said what you just said right here. I stand by what Jesus says and He said that anyone in Him that doesn't "produce" His Father will cut from the vine.

Ya know how I allow a man with a past sin in his life preach to me... the same way that you preach, the same way that the man who preaches to the very congregation that you are a part of does with his sin(s) throughout his life... that's how. God forgave him, me, you... we can be used for His glory.

You actually believe you are without sin? You actually believe that the man you call pastor is without sin?

Hardly... blameless, yes. Sinless.... NEVER!

God would not be using us if "sin" made us useless. Sin not confessed and enjoyed... sure, this will stop any in their tracks as useful but to think that me, you, your paster is without sin... you're fooling yourself.

What is your definition of sin anyway... something the Lord holds over us forever? Based on all you have been saying... you sure do.

A man of God comes to your church and gives his testimony of sin and how God lifed him out of that sin and restored them and is using them and you're gonna stick them back under the sin of their past while Christ has forgiven and forgotten.

Like I said... thank the Lord for His mercy to cover the lack of mercy and love from those in the Body of Christ.

The Mighty Sword
Feb 4th 2010, 07:44 PM
I'm worse than unclean, I'm naval lint.

Reynolds357
Feb 4th 2010, 08:23 PM
I'm worse than unclean, I'm naval lint.

Yeah, thats pretty bad.:lol:

Amos_with_goats
Feb 4th 2010, 08:31 PM
Yeah, thats pretty bad.:lol:

Naval link is positively pristine compared to what 'filthy rags' actually are...

Reynolds357
Feb 4th 2010, 08:54 PM
Naval link is positively pristine compared to what 'filthy rags' actually are...
Yeah, I know. I got thrown off another Christian chat board for telling what filthy rags actually are.

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 09:06 PM
I never said what you just said right here. I stand by what Jesus says and He said that anyone in Him that doesn't "produce" His Father will cut from the vine.

Ya know how I allow a man with a past sin in his life preach to me... the same way that you preach, the same way that the man who preaches to the very congregation that you are a part of does with his sin(s) throughout his life... that's how. God forgave him, me, you... we can be used for His glory.

You actually believe you are without sin? You actually believe that the man you call pastor is without sin?

Hardly... blameless, yes. Sinless.... NEVER!

God would not be using us if "sin" made us useless. Sin not confessed and enjoyed... sure, this will stop any in their tracks as useful but to think that me, you, your paster is without sin... you're fooling yourself.

What is your definition of sin anyway... something the Lord holds over us forever? Based on all you have been saying... you sure do.

A man of God comes to your church and gives his testimony of sin and how God lifed him out of that sin and restored them and is using them and you're gonna stick them back under the sin of their past while Christ has forgiven and forgotten.

Like I said... thank the Lord for His mercy to cover the lack of mercy and love from those in the Body of Christ.
When we get saved we are bathed from head to toe. This is what Jesus said when He washed the disciples feet. As we go about our life for Christ our feet become soiled. We need to have our feet clensed not our entire body. Not resaved but we need to confess our sins since salvation. 1 John 2:1-2 It is these sins that impair our relationship with our Saviour and hinder the Holy Spirit using us in service for the Lord. We can produce no fruit if we have sin that we have not confessed to the Lord.

How can you witness to your neighbor if you are harboring lustful thoughts about his wife? You must be clean to be used of God as a witness. You cannot witness to a man in the bar if you are there getting drunk with him.

I think it inconsistant to say we can lose our salvation but God does not require us to be clean to use us in His service. I have not said one must or can be sinless because the word of God say we cannot acheive that status. At the same time God says we must be clean. Abstain from evil. Eschew evil. Conform to the image of Christ. Give no place to the flesh. Daily confession of our sin. The closer we draw to Christ the more manifest our sin becomes. When we fall we ask for forgivness and we get up and go forward. If we fall and do not get up we cannot go forward.

Are you seriously going to argue that a man can be an unrepentant adulterer or any other unconfessed sin and still produce fruit for Christ? If we are to produce fruit we must be clean. The Holy Spirit does not fill temples cluttered with idols. 2 Cor 6:16

At what point does on cease to abide? How much sin will the Holy Spirit abide before He ceases to fill with power?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Feb 4th 2010, 09:08 PM
Are you seriously going to argue that a man can be an unrepentant adulterer or any other unconfessed sin and still produce fruit for Christ? If we are to produce fruit we must be clean. The Holy Spirit does not fill temples cluttered with idols. 2 Cor 6:16

Reread what I wrote.

The Mighty Sword
Feb 4th 2010, 09:09 PM
Yeah, thats pretty bad.:lol:

When I was baptized I recieved the "extended version" they held me under a little longer than normal and a second dunk was also discussed but never utilized.

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 09:11 PM
Naval link is positively pristine compared to what 'filthy rags' actually are...
The sect of the lint pickers claims that one picks the lint from the navel so that it is clean for the salt. Light is used so the salt can be introduced.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Reynolds357
Feb 4th 2010, 09:16 PM
Are you seriously going to argue that a man can be an unrepentant adulterer or any other unconfessed sin and still produce fruit for Christ? If we are to produce fruit we must be clean. The Holy Spirit does not fill temples cluttered with idols. 2 Cor 6:16

For the cause of Christ
Roger
How long Was Jimmy Swaggart having sex with prostitutes? A long time. How many people did he win to The Lord during that time?
God can use some pretty bad people.

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 09:25 PM
Reread what I wrote.
Unclean in case you missed it is the Christian who does not confess his sins but continues in them. God does not fill and use such an individual until he confesses and asks forgivness.

Preachers who commit adultery and ask forgivness are forgiven but they are disqualified from future service as pastors. If they give a testimony and warn others not to do the same then that is good but they are not to be restored to the pulpit. I know that seems harsh by todays standards but it is what God as said not me.

I still need to know how you perceive the difference between not abiding so that one loses their salvation and those who are unclean and unable to be used in service to the Lord. Or are you saying that God fills and uses Christians who are disobedient? 2 cor 6:16

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 09:32 PM
How long Was Jimmy Swaggart having sex with prostitutes? A long time. How many people did he win to The Lord during that time?
God can use some pretty bad people.
Do you really believe that? I do not think the mods no I know the mods do not want a discussion on JS.

In a way God used pharaoh. That is how God uses the ungodly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Mighty Sword
Feb 4th 2010, 09:37 PM
Let's take the whole of the message into consideration:

1 John 1:6-8 (New King James Version) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Does GOD used the unclean??? that's a good question. Fenris was so gracious as to provide us with a story The Cantor and The Klansman, did god us them to touch us??? Yes!!! were they unclean??? Yes.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2010, 09:44 PM
Jonah preached the greatest revival recorded in the OT. He's not mentioned in the hall of faith in Heb. 11. Jonah hated the Assyrians and did not want to preach to them because he knew God would be merciful. Even after they repented, Jonah was upset with God over it. If God can use Jonah, why not someone else?

Does he wink at sin? No. Those whom he loves, he chastens. Can a man be disqualified for service? Absolutely! Will God use a man when that man is in rebellion? He did Jonah. Jonah preached because he had too and he repented for running from God. But he still was upset that God wanted to show mercy to Nineveh. God had to give Jonah an object lesson after he used to him to explain the importance of the Nineveh folks.

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 4th 2010, 10:43 PM
Unclean, in the Light of the Good News and NT....and what Jesus the Christ has brought to ''LIGHT" would be 'devilish influences controlling and possessing' human flesh' Unclean in the NT Light.. means having a spirutal presense other than the Influence and Abiding Holy Ghost who lives in and dwells with Genuine Believers....

Jesus even called those who appeared Righteous Outwardly... and 'clean'.. inwardly 'unclean'..

did God use those who appeared Righteously Outward but inward were 'unclean'?

yes He did.. He used those to fulfill His Will in Condemning the Righteous and Just One to His Physical Death on that bloody Tree... so that His Children could Inherit Eternal Life.. and that His Plan since before the Foundation of the World could come to pass...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

unclean hands, clothes, anything 'unclean'.. is just that 'unclean'... in a 'dirty' sense...

when the veil of the flesh is pulled away.. you will see that 'unclean'.. will represent the presence of an 'evil or wicked spirit'..

and even though those that have 'unclean ' spirits are under the control and domination of their father , satan.....

God is Still in Control and He is Still Sovereign and in Control over all..these being made Subject unto Him.. and the Name of Jesus...

this evident by what Happened and Is Recorded in the NT ..

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 10:53 PM
Unclean, in the Light of the Good News and NT....and what Jesus the Christ has brought to ''LIGHT" would be 'devilish influences controlling and possessing' human flesh' Unclean in the NT Light.. means having a spirutal presense other than the Influence and Abiding Holy Ghost who lives in and dwells with Genuine Believers....

Jesus even called those who appeared Righteous Outwardly... and 'clean'.. inwardly 'unclean'..

did God use those who appeared Righteously Outward but inward were 'unclean'?

yes He did.. He used those to fulfill His Will in Condemning the Righteous and Just One to His Physical Death on that bloody Tree... so that His Children could Inherit Eternal Life.. and that His Plan since before the Foundation of the World could come to pass...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

unclean hands, clothes, anything 'unclean'.. is just that 'unclean'... in a 'dirty' sense...

when the veil of the flesh is pulled away.. you will see that 'unclean'.. will represent the presence of an 'evil or wicked spirit'..

and even though those that have 'unclean ' spirits are under the control and domination of their father , satan.....

God is Still in Control and He is Still Sovereign and in Control over all..these being made Subject unto Him.. and the Name of Jesus...

this evident by what Happened and Is Recorded in the NT ..
Jesus washed the disciples feet not because they were clean but because they were unclean. When you walk upon the earth do your feet get dirty?

When the High Preist went into the Holy of Holies did he wash himself and His garments? Why? Because God did not allow for any dirty thing to enter into the inner most part of the temple. If we are not washing our feet by often confessing our need before the Lord how can we enter into the inner most fellowship with Him?

Shall we come to Christ for clensing and then go forth and live like the devil? No we must mortify the deed of the flesh ans walk in the Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Servant89
Feb 4th 2010, 10:54 PM
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Accuser in Hebrew = Satan

Accuser in Greek is diabolo (Diablo, Devil)

Who wants to wear the uniform of the enemy of Christ? Who wants to be part of his team? Who want to be known as an accuser? Anyone?

God the Father does not judge anyone (John 5:22) and he certainly can.

The Son of God does not judge anyone (John 12:47-48) and he certainly can.

What makes me so adequate for the job of judging others? I have enough sin in my life to keep me busy confessing (I do not have time to point the finger at someone else).

Shalom

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 4th 2010, 11:00 PM
And alot of the time these that appear Righteous and Clean 'outwardly', are really 'unclean' in the 'inside'.... and these that appear this way.. usually are the ones 'pointing out all the faults and sins of everybody else'...... yet blind to their own 'uncleanness'.. which is usually fueled by 'pride' and driven by 'another spirit'... that same spirit that drove the Pharisees to 'condemn' everybody else.. yet unable to see their own wretchedness and sin in wallowing in spiritual pride... which comes from their father the devil.

it is ABSOLUTELY no different today.... Its hard on this board to discern sometimes.. It would be much better if I were talking to some face to face.. then I could look into your eyes and see 'who' is behind the keyboard.. and 'who' is abiding in the 'house'.....

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 4th 2010, 11:20 PM
Jesus washed the disciples feet not because they were clean but because they were unclean. When you walk upon the earth do your feet get dirty?

When the High Preist went into the Holy of Holies did he wash himself and His garments? Why? Because God did not allow for any dirty thing to enter into the inner most part of the temple. If we are not washing our feet by often confessing our need before the Lord how can we enter into the inner most fellowship with Him?

Shall we come to Christ for clensing and then go forth and live like the devil? No we must mortify the deed of the flesh ans walk in the Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Roger you did not understand at all what I said .. which makes sense and I understand....... May He open your eyes to Reality....

Roger do you know what an unclean spirit is and and where they abide?

Roger do you realize the 'light of the body' is the eye?


Those who are Genuinely His.. if they are His.. WILL NOT live like the devil.....

they may and probably will stray at tmes.. but God will bring them back .. to Him...

I know because I was in his kingdom for many years... and Jesus Delivered me out of it.. into His Kingdom. the Kingdom of His Dear Son.... and the Kingdom of Light...

The Reason I know I'm not living in the devils kingdom.. is because of the insideous amount of time he spends trying to convince me that I've lost my salvation, God no longer loves me, that somehow I'm committed enough 'sin' for God to abandon me.. and reject me.... if thats the case.. then I never had a 'chance' in the first place... from the Beginning..... but thats not the case.. because the Salvation He has Granted me is Grounded in Him and not man's theological prowness...

the reason the devil does spend the insideous amount of time doing what he does is that I'm actually Living in Jesus's Kingdom.. the Kingdom of Heaven is in my heart thru the Eternal Spirit.. and that I'm His Child.... Elected by God Himself.. and the devil can't stand that.. and thats the reason he does what he does.. if I was living in the devil's kingdom.. then he would not be paying all that much attention to me... but thats not the case... he is an insideous creature.. who was and has been Defeated..


there is a piece of Scripture that Jesus taught about..

the 'light' of the Body is the 'eye'.. and it Truly is..

take heed therein.. that the 'light' which is in you.. be not DARKNESS.. if thats the case.. then how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS....

on a planet that is littered with sects and divisions that claim to be 'Christ-like' and following Christ....

there is no greater time that this Scripture be Heeded....

take heed that the 'light' which is in you.. be not darkness.. if thats the case .. how great is that darkness.!!

its no different TODAY..

Firefighter
Feb 4th 2010, 11:31 PM
Jesus washed the disciples feet not because they were clean but because they were unclean. When you walk upon the earth do your feet get dirty?

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

(The "but not all" is referring to Judas)

Jesus declared them clean "every whit" (whole body)(holos). ;)

notuptome
Feb 4th 2010, 11:47 PM
Roger you did not understand at all what I said .. which makes sense and I understand....... May He open your eyes to Reality....

Roger do you know what an unclean spirit is and and where they abide?

Roger do you realize the 'light of the body' is the eye?


Those who are Genuinely His.. if they are His.. WILL NOT live like the devil.....

they may and probably will stray at tmes.. but God will bring them back .. to Him...

I know because I was in his kingdom for many years... and Jesus Delivered me out of it.. into His Kingdom. the Kingdom of His Dear Son.... and the Kingdom of Light...

The Reason I know I'm not living in the devils kingdom.. is because of the insideous amount of time he spends trying to convince me that I've lost my salvation, God no longer loves me, that somehow I'm committed enough 'sin' for God to abandon me.. and reject me.... if thats the case.. then I never had a 'chance' in the first place... from the Beginning..... but thats not the case.. because the Salvation He has Granted me is Grounded in Him and not man's theological prowness...

the reason the devil does spend the insideous amount of time doing what he does is that I'm actually Living in Jesus's Kingdom.. the Kingdom of Heaven is in my heart thru the Eternal Spirit.. and that I'm His Child.... Elected by God Himself.. and the devil can't stand that.. and thats the reason he does what he does.. if I was living in the devil's kingdom.. then he would not be paying all that much attention to me... but thats not the case... he is an insideous creature.. who was and has been Defeated..


there is a piece of Scripture that Jesus taught about..

the 'light' of the Body is the 'eye'.. and it Truly is..

take heed therein.. that the 'light' which is in you.. be not DARKNESS.. if thats the case.. then how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS....

on a planet that is littered with sects and divisions that claim to be 'Christ-like' and following Christ....

there is no greater time that this Scripture be Heeded....

take heed that the 'light' which is in you.. be not darkness.. if thats the case .. how great is that darkness.!!

its no different TODAY..
I understand unclean spirits. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about Christians keeping themselves clean before the Lord. Not allowing sin to interfere with their fellowship with the Lord. You would not eat off a dirty plate. Why would you expect the Lord to accept anything less than the best we can offer.

What does 2 Cor 6:14-18 mean to you? That has been the focus scripture for me in this thread.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amos_with_goats
Feb 4th 2010, 11:53 PM
I understand unclean spirits. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about Christians keeping themselves clean before the Lord. Not allowing sin to interfere with their fellowship with the Lord. You would not eat off a dirty plate. Why would you expect the Lord to accept anything less than the best we can offer.....

Which is EXACTLY my original point... the best we can offer... is still a dirty plate (actually quite a bit worse).....






No argument against pursuing righteousness.. just the idea that one ought to wait until they believe they have 'arrived' to do it.

.

notuptome
Feb 5th 2010, 12:05 AM
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

(The "but not all" is referring to Judas)

Jesus declared them clean "every whit" (whole body)(holos). ;)
The underlying imagery is of an oriental returning from the public baths to his house. His feet would aquire defilement and require cleansing, but not his body. So the believer is cleansed as before the law from all sin "once for all" Heb 10:1-12 but needs throught his earthly life to bring his daily sins to the Father in confession so that he may abide in unbroken fellowship with the Father and with the Son 1 John 1:1-10. the blood of Christ answers forever to all the law could say as to the believers guilt but he needs constant cleansing from the defilement of sin. Eph 5:25-27, 1 John 5:6 Typically the order of approach to the presence of God was first the brazen altar of sacrifice then the laver of cleansing exodus 40:6-7 also exodus 30:17-21 Christ will not have communion with a defiled saint but He can and will cleanse him.

It was also the custom when one received a guest into their home they host offered a bowl of water with which the guest or traveler could wash his feet and hands.

Jesus washed the disciples feet not for salvation but the prepare them for service. vs 12-16 speak of humility in service.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 5th 2010, 12:14 AM
Which is EXACTLY my original point... the best we can offer... is still a dirty plate (actually quite a bit worse).....

No argument against pursuing righteousness.. just the idea that one ought to wait until they believe they have 'arrived' to do it.

.
It is the Lord that prepares us for service after He saves us. It is not a matter of arriving but of submitting to the righteousness of Christ. We are saved but we cannot serve without Him. He will not have fellowship with us if we enthrone idols in our heart. 2 Cor 6:14-18 makes that clear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amos_with_goats
Feb 5th 2010, 12:55 AM
It is the Lord that prepares us for service after He saves us. It is not a matter of arriving but of submitting to the righteousness of Christ. We are saved but we cannot serve without Him. He will not have fellowship with us if we enthrone idols in our heart. 2 Cor 6:14-18 makes that clear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It seems to me, that with this and many of your earlier posts, you are 'arguing past' the posts you counter.

I could be wrong.

Reynolds357
Feb 5th 2010, 03:09 AM
Do you really believe that? I do not think the mods no I know the mods do not want a discussion on JS.

In a way God used pharaoh. That is how God uses the ungodly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I do not want a discussion on Jimmy Swaggart eithr, but facts are facts. He won many, many, people to the Lord while he was actively involved with prostitutes.

Firefighter
Feb 5th 2010, 03:19 AM
The underlying imagery is of an oriental returning from the public baths to his house. His feet would aquire defilement and require cleansing, but not his body. So the believer is cleansed as before the law from all sin "once for all" Heb 10:1-12 but needs throught his earthly life to bring his daily sins to the Father in confession so that he may abide in unbroken fellowship with the Father and with the Son 1 John 1:1-10. the blood of Christ answers forever to all the law could say as to the believers guilt but he needs constant cleansing from the defilement of sin. Eph 5:25-27, 1 John 5:6 Typically the order of approach to the presence of God was first the brazen altar of sacrifice then the laver of cleansing exodus 40:6-7 also exodus 30:17-21 Christ will not have communion with a defiled saint but He can and will cleanse him.

It was also the custom when one received a guest into their home they host offered a bowl of water with which the guest or traveler could wash his feet and hands.

Jesus washed the disciples feet not for salvation but the prepare them for service. vs 12-16 speak of humility in service.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


That is great and all, but that is NOT what the text says. Jesus explicitly said they were clean, every body part, and yet you insist that they were not... What textual basis do you have to deny what Jesus plainly said!?!?!

EarlyCall
Feb 5th 2010, 03:31 AM
God has used unclean vessels throughout history. God brought foreign kings against Israel. God did this. There are many examples of this in the OT, but I'll give just one quickly.

"Now God had caused the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel..."

That official did not worship the God of Israel. And of course many more examples exist. The pharaoh of Egypt whom Moses went before. Many examples of God using unclean vessels.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2010, 03:41 AM
Abraham lied and God almost killed a man because of it. But then God sent that man to Abraham to have the prophet pray for him so he would live.

Gen 20:1-7

20 Abraham moved from Mamre to the southern part of Canaan and lived between Kadesh and Shur. Later, while he was living in Gerar, 2 he said that his wife Sarah was his sister. So King Abimelech of Gerar had Sarah brought to him. 3 One night God appeared to him in a dream and said, "You are going to die, because you have taken this woman; she is already married."

4 But Abimelech had not come near her, and he said, "Lord, I am innocent! Would you destroy me and my people? 5 Abraham himself said that she was his sister, and she said the same thing. I did this with a clear conscience, and I have done no wrong."

6 God replied in the dream, "Yes, I know that you did it with a clear conscience; so I kept you from sinning against me and did not let you touch her. 7 But now, give the woman back to her husband. He is a prophet, and he will pray for you, so that you will not die. But if you do not give her back, I warn you that you are going to die, you and all your people."
GNT

Good thing God could still use Abraham even though he lied.

Jonah hated the Assyrians. Even after they repented, he was upset with God for saving them. But even with sin in his heart, God still used Jonah in ministry.

Jonah 3:10-4:3

10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

4 But it greatly displeased Jonah, and he became angry. 2 And he prayed to the Lord and said, "Please Lord, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore, in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that Thou art a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity. 3 "Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."
NASB

Even though Jonah was full of hate and was angry that God showed mercy to his enemies, still God used him to preach and warn and save people.

Good thing for Nineveh that God uses people that have current sin issues. Now, does God overlook such things? No. He dealt with Jonah about it and he'll deal with us about our issues. But we don't have to be perfect for God to use us.

IsItLove?
Feb 5th 2010, 07:52 AM
You actually believe you are without sin? You actually believe that the man you call pastor is without sin?

Hardly... blameless, yes. Sinless.... NEVER!

God would not be using us if "sin" made us useless. Sin not confessed and enjoyed... sure, this will stop any in their tracks as useful but to think that me, you, your paster is without sin... you're fooling yourself.

What is your definition of sin anyway... something the Lord holds over us forever? Based on all you have been saying... you sure do.



Bro, sounds like you are saying, no one is clean, that it is impossible to cease from sinning.

IsItLove?
Feb 5th 2010, 07:55 AM
Absolutely! If we wait until we are free from sin, we will be waiting for a LONG time... at least beyond this struggle with the flesh. It would be (and is) truly sad when the Lord says 'jump' and we say 'not yet, I am not ready'.

Sounds like you are saying it is impossible to be clean, to cease from sin in this life.

Servant89
Feb 5th 2010, 09:13 AM
Sounds like you are saying it is impossible to be clean, to cease from sin in this life.

1John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Answer this please, who of us would had told Jesus this (assuming we are one of the 12 apostles):

"Jesus, you need to fire Judas from ministry. He is a devil, he steals from the church offering, he is a traitor, you need to get rid of him, trust me on this."

Who will dare say that to him? Or to the Holy Ghost? Because it is written:1Cor 12:18 God is the one that places ministers in their ministry positions.

Or if Judas comes with the plate to collect the offering, who would purposely not give to Jesus' ministry because you know Judas was a thief? Who has the nonsense of explaining to Jesus why it was wrong to give to his ministry under that situation?

Phi 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Shalom

IsItLove?
Feb 5th 2010, 10:10 AM
1Pe 4:1-8 So, since Christ suffered in the flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same attitude, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin(ceased from sin), in that he spends (so as to live) the rest of his time on earth (in can happen here on earth) concerned about the will of God and not human desires. For the time that has passed was sufficient for you to do what the non-Christians desire. You lived then in debauchery, evil desires, drunkenness, carousing, drinking bouts, and wanton idolatries. So they are astonished when you do not rush with them into the same flood of wickedness, and they vilify you. They will face a reckoning before Jesus Christ who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. Now it was for this very purpose that the gospel was preached to those who are now dead, so that though they were judged in the flesh by human standards they may live spiritually by God’s standards.



1John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Another translation perhaps.
1John 1:8 If we say we do not bear the guilt (state) of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1:9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. 1:10 If we say we have not sinned (past tense) , we make him a liar and his word is not in us. 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

We get a much better sense in the whole context.

In regards to the OP I believe the cleaner we are the more God is able to use us for His glory.

So arm yourself with the same attitude that was in Christ Jesus!

notuptome
Feb 5th 2010, 01:20 PM
That is great and all, but that is NOT what the text says. Jesus explicitly said they were clean, every body part, and yet you insist that they were not... What textual basis do you have to deny what Jesus plainly said!?!?!
Peter reacted the same way. Jesus corrected him. Jesus explained to Peter the need to wash his feet. Jesus knew that all of them would be saved when His blood was shed with the exception of Judas who would die before Jesus. Jesus told Peter that what I do now you do not understand but you will when the Holy Spirit illuminates your heart.

The modern church has embraced much of the ungodliness of the present age. We do not see many things as particularly sinful when fifty years ago it would have been unthinkable for these things to be in the life of a Christian let alone to be commonplace in the house of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 5th 2010, 01:47 PM
Abraham lied and God almost killed a man because of it. But then God sent that man to Abraham to have the prophet pray for him so he would live.

Gen 20:1-7

20 Abraham moved from Mamre to the southern part of Canaan and lived between Kadesh and Shur. Later, while he was living in Gerar, 2 he said that his wife Sarah was his sister. So King Abimelech of Gerar had Sarah brought to him. 3 One night God appeared to him in a dream and said, "You are going to die, because you have taken this woman; she is already married."

4 But Abimelech had not come near her, and he said, "Lord, I am innocent! Would you destroy me and my people? 5 Abraham himself said that she was his sister, and she said the same thing. I did this with a clear conscience, and I have done no wrong."

6 God replied in the dream, "Yes, I know that you did it with a clear conscience; so I kept you from sinning against me and did not let you touch her. 7 But now, give the woman back to her husband. He is a prophet, and he will pray for you, so that you will not die. But if you do not give her back, I warn you that you are going to die, you and all your people."
GNT

Good thing God could still use Abraham even though he lied.

Jonah hated the Assyrians. Even after they repented, he was upset with God for saving them. But even with sin in his heart, God still used Jonah in ministry.

Jonah 3:10-4:3

10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

4 But it greatly displeased Jonah, and he became angry. 2 And he prayed to the Lord and said, "Please Lord, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore, in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that Thou art a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity. 3 "Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."
NASB

Even though Jonah was full of hate and was angry that God showed mercy to his enemies, still God used him to preach and warn and save people.

Good thing for Nineveh that God uses people that have current sin issues. Now, does God overlook such things? No. He dealt with Jonah about it and he'll deal with us about our issues. But we don't have to be perfect for God to use us.
Do you want God to use you the same way He uses the unsaved? Do you want your works to pass through the fire as wood, hay and stubble? 1 Cor 3:12-15

The heart that will not yield to the Holy Spirit's leading may be used of God as an example to warn others. Consider the warning given in 1 Cor 5:1-8 Think this man has reward in heaven?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2010, 01:49 PM
Do you want God to use you the same way He uses the unsaved? Do you want your works to pass through the fire as wood, hay and stubble? 1 Cor 3:12-15

The heart that will not yield to the Holy Spirit's leading may be used of God as an example to warn others. Consider the warning given in 1 Cor 5:1-8 Think this man has reward in heaven?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jonah and Abraham were both saved but had sin. God used them anyway. Does that mean I am endorsing sin? No. One should walk holy before God. But perfection is not required for God to use someone as God demonstrates with Jonah.

Slug1
Feb 5th 2010, 01:52 PM
But perfection is not required for God to use someone as God demonstrates with Jonah.Add me to this list.... as long as we are blameless before God, He will be able to use us.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2010, 01:57 PM
Add me to this list.... as long as we are blameless before God, He will be able to use us.

Amen Bro. Blameless is a much better term. But even with Jonah, it was after God used him that he dealt with his sin against Assyria. Of course, God dealt with his rebellion to not preach at all earlier. But his hate was dealt with after. I find that interesting. What do I learn from that? Better to speak when God says speak regardless of my situation.

Thing is, we should be afraid to sin. The fear of the Lord will keep a man from evil. In this thread, no one is justifying sin. What we are saying is that God will use a man who has a stronghold even if he doesn't use him as much or as powerfully as he uses one who is completely free from all the strongholds that he is aware he has.

notuptome
Feb 5th 2010, 01:57 PM
I do not want a discussion on Jimmy Swaggart eithr, but facts are facts. He won many, many, people to the Lord while he was actively involved with prostitutes.
You are entitled to your opinion. The facts may be disputed by others. James 3:11

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Feb 5th 2010, 02:09 PM
Jonah and Abraham were both saved but had sin. God used them anyway. Does that mean I am endorsing sin? No. One should walk holy before God. But perfection is not required for God to use someone as God demonstrates with Jonah.
2 Tim 4:10 There are those who love sin more than they desire to serve the Lord. As NT Christians we ought to be not perfect of our own but walking as close to Christ as we possibly can. The closer we draw to Christ the close He draws us. We cannot be perfect but we can always improve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Feb 5th 2010, 02:14 PM
2 Tim 4:10 There are those who love sin more than they desire to serve the Lord. As NT Christians we ought to be not perfect of our own but walking as close to Christ as we possibly can. The closer we draw to Christ the close He draws us. We cannot be perfect but we can always improve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

In one word all you just said can be summed up... Blameless.

Roger, we're speaking the same message... I guess I just need it dumbed down to my level of understanding.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2010, 02:19 PM
2 Tim 4:10 There are those who love sin more than they desire to serve the Lord. As NT Christians we ought to be not perfect of our own but walking as close to Christ as we possibly can. The closer we draw to Christ the close He draws us. We cannot be perfect but we can always improve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Right. And now perhaps we are on the same page. Abraham had a strong hold, but he loved and feared God so much that he offered up his own son to Him. Jonah was a different kind of guy all together. Jonah is not mentioned in the hall of faith and he lost much.

If one has no desire to be pure and holy before the Lord, let that man be fearful! Even Lot's righteous soul was tormented by the sin around him. Imagine what his own sin did to him. So if we have no desire to please God, then what assurance do we have that we are his? For if we are his, he will chasten us.

Firefighter
Feb 5th 2010, 02:43 PM
Peter reacted the same way. Jesus corrected him. Jesus explained to Peter the need to wash his feet. Jesus knew that all of them would be saved when His blood was shed with the exception of Judas who would die before Jesus. Jesus told Peter that what I do now you do not understand but you will when the Holy Spirit illuminates your heart.

The modern church has embraced much of the ungodliness of the present age. We do not see many things as particularly sinful when fifty years ago it would have been unthinkable for these things to be in the life of a Christian let alone to be commonplace in the house of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So you have no textual reason to deny what Jesus plainly said...

notuptome
Feb 5th 2010, 06:28 PM
So you have no textual reason to deny what Jesus plainly said...
I do not deny what Jesus said. I am trying to point out what Jesus taught by what He said. Jesus said vs 8 If I wash thee not thou hast no part with Me. Jesus is speaking to salvation in this washing. Once and done and eternal cleansing fom sin and the penalty of sin. vs 10 Jesus said He that is washed (saved in vs 8) needeth not (to be rewashed or resaved) except to wash his feet. Jesus is clearly saying that the believer will need to confess his daily sin to the Lord to stay entirely clean and that to serve the Lord. Judas was the not all phrase and this is evidenced in vs 11. I have no argument with what is said why do you not receive what is taught? vs 16 The servant is not greater than his Lord. vs 17 If ye know these things happy are ye if you do them.

The cultural norms of the day highlight the symbology of what Jesus is doing for His disciples. You would never have a Pharaisee washing the feet of a simple fisherman.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Feb 5th 2010, 08:49 PM
While I am aware of the cultural norms of the day, I fail to see what part of "you are clean, EVERY PART" is so hard to understand. Why didn't Jesus say "you are clean, EXCEPT YOUR FEET"??? He did not. He said YOU ARE CLEAN, EVERY PART and yet you proclaimed them unclean.... you don't see a problem there!?!?!

notuptome
Feb 5th 2010, 09:45 PM
While I am aware of the cultural norms of the day, I fail to see what part of "you are clean, EVERY PART" is so hard to understand. Why didn't Jesus say "you are clean, EXCEPT YOUR FEET"??? He did not. He said YOU ARE CLEAN, EVERY PART and yet you proclaimed them unclean.... you don't see a problem there!?!?!
Perhaps I was not specific but I see them as clean in that they are saved but haveing defilement and needing their feet washed. How much defilement is required to make one defiled? God wants us clean all the way down to our toes so He can use us. If we do not confess our daily sin we begin to become less and less useful to God.

David said renew in me a right spirit. Ps 51:10 Clean heart and a right spirit to be fitted for service.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2010, 10:24 PM
How much defilement is required to make one defiled? God wants us clean all the way down to our toes so He can use us. If we do not confess our daily sin we begin to become less and less useful to God.

David said renew in me a right spirit. Ps 51:10 Clean heart and a right spirit to be fitted for service.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Indeed. That is a good point. But the key is "less and less" useful. Or perhaps a better word might be pleasing. There is a difference between no use at all and less use.

I would also ask your question a little differently. How clean must one be to be clean?

notuptome
Feb 6th 2010, 12:43 AM
Indeed. That is a good point. But the key is "less and less" useful. Or perhaps a better word might be pleasing. There is a difference between no use at all and less use.

I would also ask your question a little differently. How clean must one be to be clean?
As clean as Christ. As clean as Gods grace. Imputed clean.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Brother Mark
Feb 6th 2010, 01:00 AM
As clean as Christ. As clean as Gods grace. Imputed clean.

That is why one is declared clean but still have sins in his life that he struggles with. I think we are on a similar page.

Slug1
Feb 7th 2010, 02:37 AM
Rock music is the whited sepulcher of the modern evangelical church. Putting Christian words to music that is all about rebellion hardly make it fit for Christians to consume. Rock music is an idol that has no place in God's temple.

Imagine my suprize that the devil wants to compromise Godly music. They are not identically praising God. One is praising God the other is praising god.
Hey Roger, ya know... I really don't get you sometimes. We're here on the internet posting stuff that does glorify and profess God.... here on the INTERNET, Roger.

You know, a medium inherently evil in nature, much worse then any Rock music. A majority of the internet is used by those who want to rebel and can freely do it. As a matter of fact, I'd ask anybody to add up the hours of time spent on the internet and then add up the time at church or in specific communication with God and compare them. If internet time is more then the time with God... is the internet an idol then?

Yet, you use it, I use it, all on this board use it and I will confidently say, God uses the internet through vessels who use the internet to glorify God and profess God.

So then why can't people use a style of music called ROCK to do the same as they are used by God to reach those who will only listen to ROCK?

Reynolds357
Feb 7th 2010, 02:40 AM
You are entitled to your opinion. The facts may be disputed by others. James 3:11

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What part would you like to dispute?
Would you like to dispute that he won many sinners to the Lord?
Possibly you would like to dispute the time frame of his involvment with prostitutes.
The first was evident by the packed alters at his crusades.
The second was evident by his own admission.

Vhayes
Feb 7th 2010, 03:12 AM
I do not want a discussion on Jimmy Swaggart eithr, but facts are facts. He won many, many, people to the Lord while he was actively involved with prostitutes.
Indeed he did. God uses whomever He chooses. And as far as I am aware, we are all clean in Christ and only in Christ and by Christ - ain't a one of us "cleaner" than another.

Swaggart sinned. He got "busted" - and I really do think God had a hand in bringing him low. I have no idea what the man is doing today but I would guess his walk is closer to God in all ways now than it was when he was at the height of his popularity.

Reynolds357
Feb 7th 2010, 03:18 AM
Indeed he did. God uses whomever He chooses. And as far as I am aware, we are all clean in Christ and only in Christ and by Christ - ain't a one of us "cleaner" than another.

Swaggart sinned. He got "busted" - and I really do think God had a hand in bringing him low. I have no idea what the man is doing today but I would guess his walk is closer to God in all ways now than it was when he was at the height of his popularity.

He is still in ministry. I pray for him because is truly an anointed man of God. I disagree with him on a lot, but I pray for him quite often.

Vhayes
Feb 7th 2010, 03:30 AM
He is still in ministry. I pray for him because is truly an anointed man of God. I disagree with him on a lot, but I pray for him quite often.
I only saw him once on Television and I was struck by him. I still don't think it was "him" that made me stop and listen, I think it was the Holy Spirit. I needed to know something and God used Jimmy Swaggart to teach me that particular lesson. Oddly enough, it was that God loves us even when we make mistakes - that He loves us enough to discipline us so we return home.

I'm glad to hear he is still in ministry. I have no idea what his theology is but I know he was used by God to help me at a time I needed help.
V

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2010, 08:20 PM
When we fall, it is wise to submit to authority. If we don't submit to authority, then there are some major issues that go beyond a more obvious sin. But as has already been pointed out, God uses many people in all circumstances even when we are in rebellion. But God will not be mocked. Whatsoever we so, that we will also reap.

Amos_with_goats
Aug 22nd 2010, 01:56 AM
Over the last several years I have encountered this belief (or at least this statement).

I know some will argue semantics, but I find the statement can lead to some fairly destructive conclusions.

I hear this, and I shiver. Believers forever waiting until they are 'good enough' understanding with their head that they can be washed but taking as an excuse their failures and faults.... waiting until they have been made 'clean enough'.

The saying that the Lord does not use unclean vessels is false on it's face... there are NO other vessels available other then those who are constantly being cleaned BY Him, for His service.

1 John 1:7 (New King James Version)

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. IIRC 'cleanses' is in the Greek 'perfect' tense. It is as thought

The Blood of Christ Continues to Continue to cleans us from sin..... it is ongoing.

There are no perfect Christians, just Christians being made perfect. There are no clean vessels, only ones being made clean.

There is never a reason to wait to submit, and to follow.

And again, there is never a reason to wait. The Lord is there to make us clean the moment we seek Him and ask.

I wanted to bring this back up as a complement to the other thread that is runing along similar lines.

Blessings,

MoreMercy
Aug 22nd 2010, 03:46 AM
Father used different nations (Assyria and Babylon) to execute justice or judgement on Israel...
Read what Father thinks and says of those said nations in Fathers word and decide for yourself if they are clean or unclean nations.

Father used an (ass a donkey) to rebuke a disobedient prophet...
Read and see if a donkey is a clean beast or an unclean beast in Fathers word.

Father used a disobedient servant to deliver our Lord to the rulers of the temple to be crucified.

I consider myself an unclean vessel even though Christ is my righteousness, I am a filthy pile of used bloody rags ! ...but He uses me !
Father chooses which vessels to use to work His will on earth and He chooses who He will or will not have mercy on, no matter how many people yea or nea.

Servant89
Aug 22nd 2010, 03:50 AM
Are we talking clean by the blood, or clean by our actions?

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing by faith?

Shalom

markedward
Aug 22nd 2010, 07:39 AM
THe Lord Does NOT USE unclean vessels...... yea or nea?
Abraham.
Isaac.
Jacob.
Pharaoh.
Moses.
Aaron.
Joshua.
Ruth.
Saul.
David.
Elijah.
Nebuchadnezzar.
Ezekiel.
Cyrus.
Nehemiah.
John bar-Zechariah.
Peter.
Paul.
Timothy.
Et al.

Servant89
Aug 22nd 2010, 07:52 PM
Abraham.
Isaac.
Jacob.
Pharaoh.
Moses.
Aaron.
Joshua.
Ruth.
Saul.
David.
Elijah.
Nebuchadnezzar.
Ezekiel.
Cyrus.
Nehemiah.
John bar-Zechariah.
Peter.
Paul.
Timothy.
Et al.

I am LOL !!!

Thank you MarkEdward... I think that post of yours should put an end to this thread. Is there anyone out there that disagrees with MarkEdward? I do not think so.

Peace!

Amos_with_goats
Aug 31st 2010, 06:51 PM
I am LOL !!!

Thank you MarkEdward... I think that post of yours should put an end to this thread. Is there anyone out there that disagrees with MarkEdward? I do not think so.

Peace!

I wish it did. I do agree, as my OP and others have said. I do find that the tendency to believe this is prevalent and not just from the pulpit. How many do not serve because they believe this lie? I know there have been times when I have allowed my flesh to talk my spirit out of something because of my (correct) belief that I am unfinished and unworthy.

notuptome
Aug 31st 2010, 10:55 PM
I wish it did. I do agree, as my OP and others have said. I do find that the tendency to believe this is prevalent and not just from the pulpit. How many do not serve because they believe this lie? I know there have been times when I have allowed my flesh to talk my spirit out of something because of my (correct) belief that I am unfinished and unworthy.
Did the Lord sanctify each one for His use? Isa 6:5-7

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Servant89
Aug 31st 2010, 11:05 PM
Did the Lord sanctify each one for His use? Isa 6:5-7

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Define clean. Are we talking "self righetousness", i.e., clean in accordance to God's law?

Shalom

Amos_with_goats
Aug 31st 2010, 11:07 PM
Define clean. Are we talking "self righetousness", i.e., clean in accordance to God's law?

Shalom

yes.

That is exactly the problem.